And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 67: Finneas

Episode Date: September 9, 2019

Kicking off Season 5, at 22-years-old, this multi-talented guest has already become a buzzing and sought-after producer, songwriter and artist. Working behind the scenes on numerous hit singles, he has stepped out into the spotlight with his own innovative and ambitious solo project. Born and raised in East Los Angeles, he was homeschooled alongside his younger sister, Billie Eilish. Music was always an important part of their childhood and education and by the age of eleven, his parents had taught him the guitar and piano. He took to writing his own songs and by the time he was a teenager, he was already teaching himself to produce. In 2015 he wrote a song titled “Ocean Eyes” in his bedroom studio. That song became the breakout hit for Billie Eilish, quickly grabbing her a record deal with Interscope and gaining major media buzz. The siblings continued to write and record together for Billie’s solo project, creating her debut EP ‘don’t smile at me’ and No. 1 debut album, ‘When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?’. He has also had the opportunity to collaborate with artists including Khalid, Kehlani, Jessie Reyez, Ashe, Olivia O'Brien, Sabrina Claudio, Marian Hill, Bruno Major. Already regarded as a major producer and songwriter to watch, as an artist his anticipated debut EP, ‘Blood Harmony,’ is set to be released this October featuring the first single, “Shelter.” Unafraid to be vulnerable and unfiltered, his songs are rich with pure unadulterated emotion. And The Writer Is… FINNEAS!This episode is sponsored by Bandzoogle. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 5 of And the Writer is with your host, Ross Golan. Before I get my spiel, I want to acknowledge the music army that listens to this podcast every week. Since starting this, the And The Writer is community has literally changed the history of the music business by helping pass the music modernization act, gotten songwriters added to album of the year for the Grammys, and still is advocating for positive changes for our industry. industry on a daily basis. So thank you and congrats. Now, as you know, I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, Big Deal Music Publishing, and

mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. and the writer is.com. Today's podcast is brought to you by our friends at Banzugal. Though for musicians by musicians,

you can use Banzugel's tools to design a website, EPK, sell music, merge directly to your fans commission free. But Banzogel just recently launched fan subscriptions, which lets fans pay a monthly fee in exchange for exclusive rewards and access to your music. Like all Banzugel sales tools, fan subscriptions are commission free. Just go to banzugal.com to try it free for 30 days, and be sure to use the promo code ATWI to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. That's Banzugle.com.

Use a promo code ATWI to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. Songwriters, think about your favorite hit song and what makes it in earworm. You could be the writer behind the next song and that goes viral. Enter the 20th annual NSAI song contest presented by Martin guitars and strings and CMT. You could win several prizes, including the one-on-one mentoring session with El King, myself, and fellow and the writer is producer Joe London. The lyric only winner will score $2,000 cash and mentoring session with award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas, as well as other coveted prizes. Send in your best songs now through October 31st at NSAI.cmpt.com.

Welcome to And The Writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's prodigious songwriter and artist is right now, literally the number one producer. on Billboard Magazine. No, no, no, no. I'm the number two producer. Louis Bell is the number one producer, and he has been for three weeks.

I was the number one producer for three weeks before that, but I've been the number one songwriter for six weeks. Is right now literally the number two? Producer on Billboard Magazine's top producer list. His innovative musicality and eloquent arrangements along with his co-writer's vocal prowess is defining the next generation, both artistically and culturally.

Pretty phenomenal start of a career, and he's doing it alongside his sister, Billy Eilish. From the far off distant land of Highland Park, California, this guy's growing up entertaining people, not just from making music, but also by acting on smash TV shows. Who is this guy? He's producing co-written every song on Billy's first two releases, including the number one debut album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? and the writer is the budding legend

Phineas O'Connell Thanks Ross Thanks for having me man That's really nice Yeah you're welcome So okay so I'm going to make you Retell stories that we were just talking about My Kitchen

I met you five minutes ago So we're not going to have to Recover too much ground Let's start with We have a friend in common Yeah A guy named Eric Palmquist Yeah

Who I went to school with. Crazy. So how is it that you and I have... A friend in common? Yeah. So Eric Palmquist is a wonderful guy and a producer of great records. He produced the thrice comeback album.

Cool. To be everywhere is to be nowhere, I think, is the title, which was sort of acronized to Tibetan. And he produced the first two albums by a band called Bad Sons that as a teen in an indie band, I idolized. And so in kind of everyone's quest to like work with the chef who made their favorite dish, I sought out Eric Palmquist.

And the way you seek somebody out is you find some page where someone's manager is listed. In this case, nobody's manager was listed. The first Batson's record hadn't even really blown up when I was interested in them. I couldn't find credits on Wikipedia. I found the mastering engineer by accident. I was looking through like mastering engineers discography websites, found this guy John Greenham, who still masters every Billy track, and emailed him directly because mastering engineers have no representation.

Sure, of course. Every time I talk to any mastering engineer, like Howie Weinberg, legend, mastered Demon Days by Gorillas, a billion other albums. Anytime I call anybody, even for the first time, it's like the website email listed or the website phone number, and you call it and you think it's going to be somebody, and it's like, this is Howie. And you're like, oh, my goodness, this is high.

this was so funny because Howie was not that long ago, I had no idea about any of the music I made, which is perfectly fine. He's been a legend forever. And he goes, so, do you make this song in your bedroom? And I go, I did. And he goes, that's okay. Nice, perfect.

So funny. And anyway, so the genesis of Eric Palmquist was that I found his manager, a guy named Danny Ruckason, and Danny set up a meeting for me and Eric. Danny is a dogged person and works really hard and never left an email of mine hanging for longer than 20 or 30 minutes. And yeah, hook me up with Eric.

I went and met with him, played on a bunch of demos that I had made myself, and he ended up producing some music for my high school band, which was very exciting for me. And I paid for the EP off of doing some acting work. But that's kind of usually how I felt about it. acting. I was like, sweet, this is going to finance the band. Well, let's go to the beginning

of the story. You know, I've done a little bit of research. Your discography is so big. I couldn't even find your full discography. Wikipedia is like, here's all his number ones. That's a cool start. That's so dope.

Like, how cool is that? I know a lot of your discography because of looking at the actual album credits and going like, oh my God, it's Ross. But when you actually, I wanted to just go and make sure that I wasn't going to reference some album that I've loved my whole life and you'd be like, I made that out. I wanted to just like know it all.

But Wikipedia just goes like, here's all of the biggest hits ever that he's made. It's awesome. It's a long list. That's strange because you know, I think most of those songs like your story are written at a

time when you're trying to be honest as a writer Oh, got it. So, you know, a lot of the songs that I've had that have worked are still ones that I started, you know, when I tell the story about

Dangerous Woman was written in a bedroom in a house that we were renting that was, that is now part of like a tent city. Like it was not a nice house. And sitting in that, room and I'm wearing pajamas and writing like writing that kind of dangerous women chorus and then

bringing that into a session and being like hey this is an idea it's like it's still so much of it starts you know at least my best stuff happens when I'm not in the fanciest of studios oh totally you're you know that's that's a big part of your story is that you grow up in a house where there are a lot of instruments and you guys would record at home. But do you have any other siblings? No, but I've always wished I had a third to mix all of my music. I thought that would be really cool. Just super efficient.

Here it is. Yeah, exactly. Are your parents musicians? Obviously, they are some sort of the impolite term would probably be a hobbyist, which sort of sounds offensive in some way. But I only say that because they never made a living off of it. Did they write? Our mom is a great song writer.

Yeah, but again, like never for a living. Did you ever write with her? I don't know if I've written with her more than like one time in my life, but she, part of the sort of gateway of my being a songwriter was that Billy and I were homeschooled and we were participating in a sort of a co-op of sorts where different parents who had different backgrounds would teach classes. Whoa.

It was pretty awesome. Why? Why? Yeah. Well, I was homeschooled. I like to talk about, my mom has this whole sort of philosophy behind homeschooling and individualized learning

and I'm just like, I was a weirdo and so they homeschooled me so I wasn't bullied all the time. Is that true? Is that why you think? I was so weird and I had like crazy separation anxiety growing up and I think there were a lot of sort of arrows and my parents at the time were you know actors which

sort of by definition is a part time job because you're auditioning and then doing the shoot but a lot of the time you're home and learning your sides and stuff. So they had this sort of time. And they're also like, the older I get, the more I become aware that they're like highly educated people that were quite qualified to have homeschooled kids

and teach them a lot of stuff. And one of the things my mom did was write songs. And she taught a songwriting class to me and some friends of mine when I was 12. And her style was like, couldn't have asked for a better sort of like, quote unquote songwriting teacher because you know as a songwriter like her whole kind of approach was like there's no wrong way to write a song like all i'm basically going to do to start with is like we're going to listen to a lot of great songs and we're going to talk about like what the names of the parts of them are

and you know what what you like about them you know and it was just this kind of like songwriting philosophy class with this sort of structure built into it but yeah i think whatever gene is a songwriter gene i definitely got from mom how did you get rid of the the social anxiety that you would have had. I never have had social anxiety. I had separation anxiety. Separation anxiety. How did you get rid of the separation anxiety?

Well. Because it would seem like if you're at home. Ask me when I don't tour with my entire family all year. Right. Okay. No, I mean, I have, I think that the way that it sort of petered out for me was that they were always super tolerant of any kind of neuroses that I bore. and like I really like I slept in the same bed as my mom and my sister until I was like 11 no I was like nine yeah I was nine but like there was just sort of like a like a point in my life where I was like no I'm gonna I'm gonna go sleep in my room now and it was just this it's just kind of growing up you know the life where you guys have you know a what a one two bedroom house two bedroom you know it's so quick to have gone from that towards you are now, or at least it's quick

from an outsider's point of view. It takes forever while you're in it. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. How do you emotionally deal with that quick of a change? It's not like, to be honest, you know, it's like I look at your discography is really young.

It's crazy young. It's like one album. And in that amount of time, this switch from being in a family that's struggling to a family that's touring worldwide is a total different scenario. So what is that like? Well, I'll give a kind of a two-part answer. The first is that a friend of mine reached out the other day,

the day that we put out a remix of the song Bad Guy with Justin Bieber singing the second verse. And the genesis of that is that Billy's been like a diehard believer since she was like six and just loves Justin Bieber. as I think most girls in her generation do. And so it was this kind of like, you know, God tear thing to do for her to have him hop on a song of hers, you know,

and not like, not the other way around. Like he jumped on like her song, you know, it's crazy. And a friend of mine texted me just kind of a sweet, like, congrats, like, dude, this is crazy. And I wrote back and I was like, yeah, I'm trying to like be aware every day that it's, it could be like the best year of my life and like it's obviously the best year of my life so far but i'm 21 and i'm also like looking forward like this could be this could be the best year of

my life and my friend was like very sweet and like as i can think any friend would be like like i don't know bro like you know whatever and i was like listen all i'm saying is like the kind of the kind of lifelong like i will be happy when x happens i wake up and i think like if i if i don't allow myself to be like happy today i'll never be happy you know what i mean like I think it's just kind of a checking in with yourself of achieving things and being able to enjoy them while you're achieving them and not being sort of caught up in the fleeting nature of them or where you're headed next or whatever.

I think it's like I knew from the age of 12 that all I wanted to do is make music for a living. And I was always kind of like reading up on anyone who's involved in albums of my childhood, anything that, like, Anyone made music I loved. So, you know, I think as you kind of cross those items off your bucket list, you know, just got to appreciate it. And that's one of the reasons why we were excited about doing this interviews. A lot of the people we talk to have been, you know, some of them are on the sunset part of their career.

I mean, the same season that we'll be doing this, we interviewed Paul Anka, who's 80. Legend, though. Paul Inca is the best. But, you know, to have somebody who's... That was one I was like, I can listen to Paul. Like, for sure. You know, like, 1956 is when he broke his career. So it's like, it's just such a different thing to be

as somebody who's able to look back on their career versus when people ask of why we do this podcast. I'm like, well, most documentaries that are people now talking about then is really boring to me, because that's about a documentary about how someone remember. versus interviewing somebody who's going through it and to understand like this is the interview will do that it'll be the follow-up in five years

I like the idea of someone going how is your interview with Phineas and you get to go man he's really going through it exactly I mean right but I mean it is such a it is such like a crazy thing to go through to how fast things have changed but you know you were saying that you knew when you were 12

why did you know when you were 12 just because your mom taught the songwriting class? You're like, oh, I'm better than the rest of these people in my class? Or what made you say, okay, well, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life? I think most people's childhoods, certainly mine is full of, like, phases of enthusiasm. Like, as a kid, you're like, oh, my God, cowboys are the coolest or, you know, whatever. I had a big cowboy face. But at, like, 11, 12, like, the kids that I thought were, like, cool that I was friends with

that I looked up to that were a little older than me. got way into bands and we're listening to a lot of Green Day and I remember like going to a Green Day concert and having like I want to do this for a living like whatever that that is I want to do that and we're at the forum and I do remember like at the time

sort of thinking like it was probably a phase but like it's definitely like the phase I'm in right now and it's just sort of evolved with me into like whatever form of music I've been interested in. What's the first song you wrote? Ocean Ice. I'm kidding. I wrote a song called, I think, like, don't forget me

that was like a sort of a Green Day rip-off. A lot of like the music that, you know, I made for the first several years, like very derivative of whatever I was listening to. I don't think so retroactively, but it was definitely like, it had like structural integrity. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Like it was, that's kind of the thing I've always like, that innate thing of like, this is a hook and this is a verse and whatever like whether you're kind of whether it's sophisticated or not like it definitely got stuck in everybody's head you know were you recording at home already at that point were you like 12 and here's because it's one of one of the other things that this generation for the most part and i know you play piano yeah but most people the instrument that they're given when they're younger is a computer which is why we have so many DJs instead of when i was little

everyone had a guitar or they had a piano or I mean I had a trombone so yeah Ross not my maybe not my coolest moment but it's true it's pretty cool I feel like that's like have you have you played it on some like hit records yet I've played some interesting instrument I have like a fake saxophone I've played on some records and I've played um I think we've there's one thing where we we paste together some sort of brass thing and then tuned it to so it sounded a little better than, you know. But most of the stuff is guitar or piano. A lot of singing. I sing on everything.

That's awesome. But not that. Before I forget, we did sort of through happenstance, a little press run was Billy Rufoul back in 2017. I love that dark four-door song. Thanks, man. I think that's a great song. I have a handful of songs that I wish people noticed. Okay.

So that was, just because I'm going to interview you a little bit on this podcast, hopefully. I think like people often love to kind of band about things like, do you ever think this song was going to be as huge? And I'm always like, yes, songs rocks. And the thing that I mainly think is like this song should have been huge and it wasn't when I'm involved in stuff like that. And I guess I was just curious because you've had a longer career than I have. are there examples that you can point to on one hand of like

I think this is like one of the best things I've ever made and it is not heard by people do you know what I mean sure you have a good example well I mean the thing I'm dealing with right now is that you know I'm releasing an album in a week and it's like it's being made in a musical in New York and all this yeah I've heard really good stuff about the wrong man that's the that's the craziest thing just because for years it would be like this is the thing that people should hear,

but I'm not going to play it for anybody. So I'd rather fly to you or play for you in person, but I'll never do a recording of it. And it kind of taught me that if I believe in something, then I should just wait until the time comes to it. Like the end of the thank yous on the album was, you know, it's something that references that. Because I've made the mistake.

There's, you know, most of the songs that are on this wall, there's Unkiss Me for Maroon 5 was a song where they were, they were, you know, Jordan, the manager who passed away, he called me, you know, this is, this is going to be the ballad, this is the song, this is going to be huge for them, they need this on the album, and they did seven singles and none of them were ballads. You know, it's like, Nikki Minaj did a song called, Marilyn Monroe. And on her website,

it was a vote for her next single. And it had, you know, 50,000 votes. And the next song was, you know, 3,000. It was just the, she toured with it. It was the fans, the whole thing. And then she got in a lot of trouble for doing pop music because she was a rapper. And she went and did, you know, some urban shows.

And the DJs were all, you can't be on this. You're a pop star now. And she just... In Rosenberg? Just like... You're not a rapper. Yes. And it basically just...

It's disrespectful. And it just killed her whole, the whole rest of the album. You know, I don't... It's like Bieber doing Take You did it on the Billboard Awards or something like that, but didn't end up making it a single. It's like there's so many that were so close, but didn't get the push. Sure.

And I mean, who knows if they would have been successful. But I do think that sometimes the difference of somebody having, eight number ones versus four number ones might just be whether or not they were the singles, you know? Right. I mean, from your perspective, when you do every song on an album, do you have favorites or do you not really care how it goes?

Yeah, I mean, the thing that I quantify more than favoritism is just differentiation. I want everything to stand on its own and feel really different when the next one plays. You know, when you listen to like an album by, especially a band? And you're like, is that song? Or wait, no, no, no, no. it's not that it's this one you that's like weird thing and so to me it's like always just really

important that like if you were like painting them all with colors that they'd all have like a totally different color on them you know and do oh there you go dude that right there's a get to lealy which is actually kind of a cool instrument yeah when it's not on the ground but it's actually it's got six strings yeah it's a get to layley it's tuned in a oh cool yeah you can play it later i might have to um yeah i usually try to you know that's As a producer, as a... Do you have synesthesia? Do you know what that is? I do, yeah.

Do you have that? Yeah, Billy and I both have it. Really? Yeah, it's kind of like Kanye Westified now. Like, I feel like, you know... Synesthesia is when you hear music and you see a color, right? Well, it's a... Sinisthesia is a very broad term for sort of, like, essentially random associations

that, like, if you hear a sound, you might see a color. If you taste a flavor, you might think an image or something. a lot of kind of abstract associations. So it's multiple senses. It's just... Yeah, sensory... Cross sensory association. Does everyone in your family have that?

Dad does, mom doesn't really. Yeah. And the funniest part about it is that it's super abstract and we get into like completely pointless, hilarious arguments where I'm like, Sunday is a deep blue and Billy's like, it's funny, Sunday is gray. You know, and you're like, well, this is contrived.

But yeah, I think it's... We keep it on the low because I think it's, I think people brag about it. Like, it's superpower. And to me, I'm like, you're like a little bit, like, insane. Like, you know what I'm, it's not like that dope. It's like. Dave Schwartz, who's from the Eurythmix, who's, you know,

he gave a note on a song once and he was just like, yeah, this part's just too yellow. Well, so we've done the same thing. Our A&R, Sam Reback at Interscope, sent us his opinion of track listing for the Don't Smile at Me, EP we put out in 2017. And we were like, copycat and my boy. he cannot go together. And he was like, why?

And I was like, they're both red. And he was like, okay, man. He was like not impressed. Right. But to me, I was like, yeah, it's just too much red right at the front of the EP. How did you and your sister start writing together? I was 18

and playing in this band. I've always sort of taken everything that I do a little bit too seriously. Not that I don't like enjoy it, but I really just am like, this could be the thing. You know, even since I was like 12. And so when I was 18, I was playing this band and really hoping we would be the biggest band in the world. What was that band call?

The Slightly's. I made, like your, and the writer as matches, I had 1,500 picks made. I played with my Slightly's picks until like the middle of this past tour. And then they finally ran out. But, yeah, I was 18 and had always loved the idea of writing for other people. and writing with other people and had mainly just been writing with and for my band alone

and then bringing it to the other three guys and the band and sort of orchestrating it together and then... Did you guys have a deal? No, yeah, no. No, nobody cared. We were also underage. I think that's a big...

I think people don't want to work with you if they're going to have to work with your parents, which I think is pretty fair, honestly. Aren't you guys half in that situation now a little bit? Yeah, but I think It's different when it's so clearly monetizable as soon as people are like, well, we'll make a lot of money off this. They're more excited about it. And also our parents are great.

I don't say that on behalf of our parents. I say that on behalf of kind of a general stigma. But yeah, when I was 18, I wrote a song for Billy to sing if she wanted to called She's Broken. Had she been writing and singing before that? She had been writing a very small amount and was already singing and had a beautiful voice and just has always had really great pure tone and incredible pitch, like such good pitch.

And so I wrote this song for her and was like, if you want to sing it, it would be cool. And then I sort of produced it in a very different style. So just to sidebar, production-wise, I was just sort of like always experimenting with Logic Pro. Like I had it from the time I was 13 and was like always trying to get good at it, but it was just sort of purely kind of experimental.

And as far as like my band stuff, I was like looking for the answer in other producers and just sort of like trying to like learn, it was like trying to learn a language to speak it with other people. Like if I learned how to produce a little bit, then I can sort of articulate what I want better to a producer. I just got a new computer right here and it's filled with apps, or not with apps,

with plugins. There you go. and if you have a vocal chain that I can have, what do you use for your vocal chain? Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. A logic stock compressor and I key you out the low end because I use a Neumann TLM 103 that picks up a lot of...

And that's it? That's it, yeah. Shame on you. You're supposed to use so many plugins that you... I've been the number one songwriter for six weeks. Fuck with me. What are you talking about? Exactly.

I love it. So wait. How are you guys good friends in a household where you guys are all, I mean, I'm sure everyone like all siblings, but how do you guys like each other? That's so awesome. Well, you know, I mean, do you have siblings? Yeah, I just talked to her. So you just talk to her, right?

Yeah. So, like, I think the beauty of it is that, like, we totally still bicker and argue and, like, you know, have really passionate opinions and disagree, but, like, none of it, like, matters. you know what I mean? And I think that's pretty awesome. And like, neither of us have ever, like, hurt each other's feelings. And I feel like collaborators, you can, like, really get your feelings hurt. It's somewhere like a really different thing.

Yeah, I don't get along with any of my old bands for that reason. Same. Is that right? Do you not really talk to any of your old collaborators? I have one friend who, the sort of, like, last, the final iteration of my band sort of dissolved without, like, a real, like, blowout. And so we all kind of stayed friends. But my kind of best friend of several years is the person that I wrote that I lost a friend song about

because we had a falling out last year and stopped talking. It was this sort of hard thing for me to grapple with. Why did it fall out? I think you probably get sort of two different answers from two different people. But, you know, I think he needed some time and some space to be his own person and sort of find his own identity. Songwriters, you could be the grand prize winner and score up to $5,000 in cash,

one of 12 Martin guitars, as well as a mentoring session with El King, Joe London, or myself. The lyric winner will win an opportunity to be mentored by award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas as well as other coveted prizes. Enter the 20th annual NSAI song contest presented by Martin Guitar Strings and CMT,

now through October 31st at NSAI. cmt.com and SAAI the National Science Association International is one of the biggest supporters of songwriters

and played a major role in helping pass the Music Modernization Act a historical piece of legislation that allows you to have a future

as a songwriter this is your opportunity to experience industry access one-on-one mentorship with hit songwriters and fun your creative passions

song and lyric only categories are open now for submissions we can't wait to hear your songs Today's podcast is brought to you by the musician website, Banzugal. And for regular listeners of And The Writer Is, you already know you can use Banzoogle to build a website, EPK.

You know you can sell your music merch, commission free. You know, you can promote your shows, collect emails from fans, send professional newsletters, all that stuff. But Ban Zougal since season four of And The Writer is, has now added a new crowdfunding feature that lets you crowdfund your next project, mission free. That means you don't need a record deal anymore to pay for your album. You now can do pre-orders. You can do your own bundling with digital music and CDs and vinyl. You can report sales to sound scan. You can create custom merch bundles. I mean, it's really an all-inclusive website. It's

really impressive. So you can go to banzuyl.com and try it free for 30 days. Or you can use a promo code ATWI to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. That's banzuble.com. Promise code ATWI to build a website for your music. Are you finding that being successful at your age?

Yeah. It gets easier when you becomes, as you get older, to become successful because your peers have also figured out how not to starve. Right. And at a certain age it's like half of your friends

are just trying to if you're how to get by and how to pursue things. And then everyone, especially in L.A., you have, you know, a lot of my friends are actors and they'd be, some of them would be in shows that would be on network television and they'd be getting 50,000 an episode. And then the other, you know, then, you know, and you're going to sessions trying to just get a publishing deal, you know, are you finding that it's, that that's part of the issue right now that being successful at a young age?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's there. I think it definitely divides you from the people you grew up as peers with more than it divides you from whatever peer group you sort of find yourself actively in. Yeah, I mean, I think conversely, I've found that like sometimes I've made a couple friends who are very successful and I feel like, whoa, like just with the kind of, with the iciness of like the watch. Like, you know, like, people wear some money that I'm like, that's crazy. Like, I thought, I thought Payless shoe source was the shoe store until I was like 16. You know what I mean? And then I bought a pair of Doc Martins and only wore them for like a year and a half. Like,

there's, there's just stuff that like was just my only reality. And then other people, like, just like, buying a backpack for like four grand is like something that I'm just like, who would do this? It just seems crazy to me. Quality, man. Yeah, it's the best. You're only buying the best. Your parents were both actors, are both actors.

Right. And I just wanted to go back because I feel like we didn't really talk about it. You end up doing acting like you were saying kind of to help pay the bills. That's so funny. Yeah, I mean, I love. Or not to pay the bills, but I like to fund recording. I love sort of any form of performance. I love performing in general.

Was that part of the classes? Did you literally do sort of acting classes in home? Oh, yeah, that was not part of the home education, but I was in like a drama class with some friends of mine. We did like a drama class. We had a drama teacher. It was fun.

Who puts you in a drama thing as a homeschooler? No, I mean, a lot of us, I mean, I was a homeschool, but a lot of people did drama class. Totally. But not everybody ends up on a TV show or on multiple TV shows. So that was the thing that was, I was in a drama class, and my parents were sort of like they would describe themselves

as like working class actors. They had like representation and they were going on auditions whenever they were sent them. And then you book like one out of 100 auditions if you're lucky, right? It's a crazy ratio. And I begged my mom for a couple years to let me go and like basically audition for the youth department at her agency to get representation to then start auditioning.

And the benefit of having parents who like when auditions was that like whatever sort of faux glamour like people that maybe didn't grow up in Los Angeles or didn't grow up in the industry think like the actual day-to-day of being an actor is was like totally absent from my view of it. I was like, yeah, you like sit in traffic going to Hollywood for like 45 minutes and then you wait in a waiting room and there's like six people that look very similar to your mom

and then you get back in the car and you've gotten a parking ticket and the ride home is like very miserable and then that's like your day. And I somehow still was like, sick, sign me up. And so I started doing auditions and got super lucky and got, I think it was like sort of my luck

and also the luck of a movie being made like this. There was this movie made when I was 12 called Bad Teacher with Cameron Diaz and it shot in L.A. and it was like an entire school full of middle schoolers and so they had to cast like hundreds of middle school kids and I was one of them

and basically in the marketing payout of the film had a big role in the marketing of it because I threw a dodge ball at her so I was in like all the YouTube ads for it but that was when I was like 12 years old and then I don't think I worked again as an actor

I did one day on Modern Family when I was 14 and then I did another one day on Modern Family when I was like 17 and then I spent a couple months on the final season of Glee so like of the like several years of auditions I was going on multiple auditions a week every week for several years I did like three or four things why even bother doing music though when you're in Glee like why even start being you know no no no I'm gonna keep

I'm gonna go to this random thing here that's not paying my bills Well, so Glee in my My relationship with Glee was that it had a planned obsolescence. I joined it during the final season. I like got on it and it was like the final season of Glee. So there was no kind of like, this could last forever for me. You know what I mean? It was like I'm on the next four.

The next two months of my life is the show and the show's done. So that was kind of great because I didn't have to like, first of all, I never would have. But like I didn't have to grapple with any like, do I leave the show and go pursue like my you know like non-existent music career or do I stay on the show I definitely would have just like stayed on the show like I'm not that brave well that's where it's weird when you know a lot of people will look at

especially again as you get older they'll be like wow you made some really good choices well kind of something for me yeah something just worked out I've said this I think a couple seasons ago but it's like I went on one one audition, my sister was a commercial agent and I was like I went on an audition and I booked it and it was a subway commercial shot in Sydney and literally went on Sydney Australia

you shot a you went to Sydney Australia to the subway commercial and I landed and they the sag rules and I wasn't sag yet because I had never shot anything but they have to fly you first class you get off they have a driver in a limo you have to stay at a certain level hotel because it's international They pick you up, drive you to the set in a limo,

and there's a set of a hundred extras, and they're all watching me, and they all think I'm an actor. And they were like, wow, what show were you on in the United States? Were you in any relation to Jared in your commercial? Were you Jared's relative? No, but the weird thing is had it worked, had it worked, what if the worst-case scenario was that that commercial would have worked? Maybe not worst-case scenario, but had that worked,

why, you know, it'd be a lot harder for you to take me seriously, I think, as a writer, if I were the guy who became, you know, oh, yeah, that's the guy. Yeah, and I really, I don't want to, like, I'm not trying to insinuate anything by this, but I do think there is like a general sort of lack of legitimacy to, to, like, well-known actors sort of turning to music, you know? Why do you think that is? I think part of it comes off as an entitlement. I think you're like, oh, just because you're like a famous actor,

you think you could do anything on the behalf of like the listener. You know what I mean? And also sometimes you associate actors so much with like whatever character they've played that you're like, it's not that you're like thinking of like Ross Golan making this album. You're thinking of like Ross the subway guy making this album. Yeah, we're for sure going to delete this part. But the part of it that's true is also that actors are professional liars. And most actors, we know we're professional truth-tellers.

It's like, no, you're not. Like, your job is to take someone else's words and make them so authentic that we believe it. And I feel like that makes them liars. And that's why so few actors become successful musicians. And some are brilliant. And obviously they're going to be... I think Donald Glover, you could point to being like pretty brilliant at everything. Yeah, and I wonder if he was, you know, obviously became famous because he was an actor.

But I don't know that Childish Gambino is younger than his acting career. Is it? No. I think Childish... He's probably about the same. It's just... Yeah. I think people, for the most part, I think people trust, a lot of those great actors, whether it's, you know...

or as famous even Frank Sinatra was in a ton of movies. He's great in those movies. Yeah, and Elvis Presley was in the Cancann or something. He's so good. These people are, so charming. They were, they're people to trust them because they think of them as honest, even though they didn't write their songs. How crazy is it that he was like the greatest crooner that ever lived and just like so

suave and a movie star and maybe having people murdered? Like, unbelievable, like, that's just an unbelievable like bag to like put your hand into. So you as an artist. What is the future as you as an artist? That's a really good question. And I would totally be lying if I said I knew the answer. But the thing that I do know is that to me, the sort of like the dream as a teen of being a member of Green Day

and then like or being like a member of whatever band I was idolizing at the time, you know, the strokes or something. you know, was a dream of like that period of my life when that was like the be-all and end-all of everything. But whatever I'm getting to actually do right now is like, even better than that to me, because I get to get into rooms with artists that I love actively or have loved for years.

You mean you as a producer? Yeah. I think being a writer-producer has been so incredibly fulfilling and inspiring and exciting to me in a way that like before I conceptualized doing that for a living, I would have thought, you know? Now it's like, I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I didn't always think this was all I wanted to do. Do you know what I mean?

So do you think you're past that? Because when you were saying that, oh, you know, I mean, obviously the success that's going on with you and Billy is one thing. Right. But you as an artist individually and your own identity musically, you don't sound like the music you're doing. Thanks. Well, that's definitely been like it's a really active goal is like, how can I really make sure that like people aren't like, well, he's just another. You know what I mean? Like, hey, I just don't have her voice.

Like, her voice is so beautiful and wonderful, but we have very different voices. So I have to kind of cater to my own voice. But you sing in a lot of the records. I do sing a lot of them, but I'm doing blood harmony. I'm doing that, like, sibling blend thing, you know? There's no, like, Finn lead on her record.

It's all just sort of octaves and stuff. But, you know, to me, when I started writing songs, it was all about self-expression. And then the first year, I was co-writing with Billy sort of close to full-time and then on days where she was

busy or in dance classes or something I was co-writing with other artists. I probably wrote one song about how I was actually feeling that year and I was so much less kind of balanced out than I'd been several years prior because I was like, oh my God, I'm not like

talking about how I feel at all. I'm like listening how everybody else in my life feels right and for them, you know. and so that was kind of the impetus for being a solo artist and putting out music on my own name was that I was making a lot of music that was totally autobiographical and then singing it

and I was like, well, I would love for people to hear this and then there's just other elements of that that fuel my creative music's like the reason you'd write a musical. There's like so many things that get you excited that you want to do and so getting to make music videos and I'm a real performance junkie, so getting to be on stage and sing my own songs and do little goofy dances.

Super exciting to me. Why is everything with Billy working and why is it working now? That's awesome. Well, it's a little bit tied back to like what we were talking about earlier with songs that for whatever reason don't work and that that feels more anomalous than something working because you believe in the thing that works. So I think I'd be as far from impartial as humanly possible. I think it should work.

You know what I mean? Like that's my hubris of like, I think it's great. Like I think that album we made is like really great. And so I'm just grateful that other people think it is and I don't take it for granted that other people think it is. But I definitely like, I'm not like, can't believe it. I'm just like, wow, I'm so glad they also think it's great. Something's happening in the zeitgeist.

Something's happening when you have famous artists involved in the art design, and you have... Well, there's been a reckoning. You have an album without a song at number... Like three pop songs, going number one, for the album to be successful. And the production is driving a lot of it. Thanks, ma'am. I still think that there's this strange, you know,

from an outsider's point of view and you're watching this thing. This is so massive and it just feels a friend of mine was saying who's an artist who's successful in his own right saying that what he thinks

it is about this project is that it's seeing the mind of a teenager in what seems like a truly honest way that it's like listening to there was a

documentary that's on HBO right now where it's that that girl who texted it convinced the kid Oh my God what a crazy have you been watching that? I haven't watched it but I was I followed that whole story when it was in the news Well the weird thing so their whole relationship

They met once in person or twice or something of that and their entire Their whole relationship was documented in text So they had tens of thousands of texts of their entire relationship So unlike any other time in history where you'd have, it'd have to be hearsay.

Everything is hearsay. It's fully written. But here's, their entire relationship is through text. It's so dark. And one of the things that's interesting about listening to this album. Is that, it's like, is that as somebody who's not in their teens,

is that you're listening to this and you're like, oh my God, I'm, I'm in the bedroom with these kids telling their story, am I even allowed to listen to this? I feel like it's so honest and not in a way that that one, just the idea that there's this magnifying glass on the honesty in it. And I don't know, but for me, that's what I feel

like we're witnessing. It's like, it's a little glimpse in of how two humans are living. I think it's honest. I'm so glad that everyone kind of looks at as this super honest portrayal, and there's definitely a lot of honesty it but I think that the sort of thing that people are like

putting in bold with underlining is like the honest thing is like the sort of actualization of it it's that we made it in this honest way like we made it in a bedroom and that it's our relationship and that it's

there's very few filters that it flows through but a lot of the songs on the album are these like super fantastical like fake things that we made for fun. And so to me it's like, like, that's part of the honesty in a weird way

is that it's not just this record of like a 16 year old complaining about things that 16 year olds would have the right to complain about. There's like these songs like bury a friend where it's like this sort of nightmare kind of Kubrick-esque concept that we turned into a song. And then there's like bad guy,

which Billy and I are, like so proud of and we're so excited it's doing so well but like is very like hilarious that it's doing you know because it's just kind of like so tongue in cheek and and kind of like casting yourself as the adversary and your own narrative um someone once said you know you want to have these um you need to be a pop star you have to be an archetype oh you know you want to be a you need to be an angel you need to be a devil. You need to be, go something extreme. Yeah. So, I mean, going in that way is actually maybe not intentional, but it's obviously works. Yeah, I mean, she is the coolest part about her. And I think it's summed up really well in this, in this thing that she sort of said one time, which was she was like,

I don't want to do, I don't want to do any more photo shoots this month. I just want to have you, like, photos of me like daily with like an iPhone and I was like why and she was like because photo shoots make it seem like I wear this stuff out of photo shoot and I wear it all the time and if it's just an iPhone picture of me in my backyard they'll know and I I was like it was she she got it in a way that like I didn't even get it you know of like sort of presentation of her being like it's not a presentation this is how I dress all the time. And I want people to know that. And I remember

just being like, whoa, and that kind of approach is sort of how we made all of our decisions. It's like, you know, just doing them yourself and taking out all the filtering in between. The kind of the joke that I've made to like the

other couple people who are involved in our crew, our mixing engineer Rob Knellski, our mastering engineer, John, and then our managers, Danny and Brandon. And I'm like, yeah, I sort of like, the thing I was prepared to be the most proud of was like in a time where big pop records are being written by like 13 people and sometimes up to five per song and produced by several people. And it's like the same several people across seven different

albums that year that all get nominated for the same Grammys, whatever. I was like, the thing I was so excited about was that it would be this kind of like moment of like wow these two kids made this thing in their bedroom and it's doing pretty okay we should put faith into young artists

and everyone just is like you guys are such an anomaly I'm always like no we're not like they're so all of my friends are so cool and like making such cool stuff in their rooms and it's like this weird thing that people have such a kind of

like just so much fear just like in kind of risk taking in music and I like every I think everybody has fear of risks in certain ways like there's this song on the album that's like basically a suicide note called listen and it was like a song that was like you know a little intense to write

but really intense to like release because you have this kind of like you know you hear things about like 13 reasons why and like kids sort of like killing themselves because that show kind of is like a manual of how to do. And, you know, there's, like, you have this feeling of responsibility of, like, I don't, I don't want people to do things because they feel that we told them to, you know. And at the end of the day, our kind of conclusion in that song's case was that it's all kind of

about oneself and it's not the final message of the album and that I think it is okay to have, like really dark inner monologues and ponder dark things and dark realities and and and sort of work them through in your head and and um that the hope is that like it's like it's not forbidding you from thinking dark things but but it's not encouraging you to do them you know that's the thing that you know it's going back where singers are sort of truth tellers yeah and so people don't look at books or movies or tv shows when they show violence or when they talk about things like suicide, they think of that as entertainment or they argue it's entertainment and when it becomes political, if it's public enemy or it's NWA or it's talking about suicide

or whatever it is, Eminem, it always becomes that you can't say those things. For some reason, because people focus on the words, the words have a weight to it because the worst case scenario is that the listener uses their imagination. I love that. You know? Yeah, I mean, I definitely was like more intimidated by someone like Eminem than I was by like Robert De Niro, you know, even though Robert De Niro is totally comparably frightening

in a bunch of movies. I just was like listening to Eminem going like, oh my goodness, you know. How do you cope with mentally with success? Awesome question. how do you cope with success mentally Ross? Just super curious. I don't want to like... I don't know if I want to say I'm a workaholic

because I'm work really... I know what you mean, though. I definitely bury myself in what are my objectives in front of me and to not try to... Yeah, I'm also like currently having success in a field that I would do for free if no one cared. That to me is like such a If you just kind of always are like

reinstilling that in yourself Like the gratification I get from writing a song Is like a lot of gratification that Yeah but there's one thing And doing what you're doing to survive Is one thing being listed one or two On a list of you know Legends around you

I should have just said you'd have to ask Louis Bell That would have been a really funny answer You'd have to ask Louis Bell I don't know Do you think you'll co-write outside of you two for a Billy record or is it sort of right now it's it's so fun because I think it'll be up to her honestly like I think that would just be her call

yeah she she really like and I like I don't want to minimize her but like she she would probably say if she's here so I feel comfortable saying like she doesn't particularly like writing like she's a really good writer and like any song that she has like 50% of if you check the track listing like I

I really feel she wrote 50% of that song. But she doesn't, like, it's very arduous for her. Like, even if she writes it quickly and it's, you know, like, she writes things sometimes, I'm like, oh, my God, that's so great, you know. But it's like lifting a heavy weight. And so I think the fact that we do it in the most comfortable situation, if it's like me and her, she doesn't have to tell me anything before we write a song. But, you know, we know each other super implicitly.

Do you like writing? I love writing. It's like my favorite thing. Yeah. Like I've said this before, but I like... Having written. I like, yeah. I like when it's done.

Well, I feel like there's so many parts of writing a song. It's hard. If we're going to like the anatom, like just the atomic level of it. Like there's like getting the great rhyme is a great moment. Yeah. You know? And you get that like 10 times a song. It's awesome.

I wrote a song the other day. It was like so many high fives during that song with the girl that I wrote it with, you know. Are you writing a lot outside of what you guys are doing? You're writing with other artists now? Not a lot a lot because we really tour a lot and so I can't do it when I'm on tour. I write with Billy on tour and I write for myself on tour. But I do love writing with other people. So anytime the opportunity presents itself in L.A. and it like makes sense I do. I love writing with other people. So I learned so much every time. Are you going to release your music to radio? Your personal music?

My personal music? To my understanding, and somebody's probably going to listen to this song, be like, he doesn't know what he's talking about. But like, you kind of have to, like, run for president with radio. Like, you have to kind of campaign to radio, you know? Yeah, you do. And sometimes it can be really expensive. All the times.

All the times it can be really expensive, Ross. Let me tell you a thing or two. about radio. So, you know, I think like, I joke about this with my girlfriend, a fair amount, which is like Ocean Eyes was the first song that Billy and I basically put out, and it immediately got a lot of attention, and it was sort of, it was buzzy. And so every step following it was pretty, like, pretty planned out, you know, like, we'd write a song and there'd be like a release plan, you know, like, okay, the publicist needs five weeks

to take it to, you know what I mean? And that's great. And it was like the benefit of having people's attention, you know. And then you, even if you have people's, I mean, you know this. It's like the biggest artist in the world, unless the whole deal is putting out a surprise album, there's this campaign of an album of like a single comes out, and then there's five weeks, and then there's the pre-order, and then the tour's announced, and it's a tour bundle. Like, there's so much stuff in the kind of like mechanics of rolling out a record.

and the thing I've really enjoyed about putting out my own music independently which is what I'm still doing is like I send it to my manager's mastered I don't go like here's like the first round of production and I'm wondering if like hey here's the master and the artwork's done also and let's put it out in six weeks that's making that makes you a record label it does but not a very good one

fair enough but do you feel like that's is that a goal of your to get to be on the business i mean there's some savviness to that too why why you know if you don't need the record label yet and you know then don't have one but do you feel like this is a step into you becoming um you know a record mogul um mogul talk uh ross welcome to mogul talk with ross go on yeah um i i i i all i say is like i i am really excited excited and enthusiastic about like pretty much every angle of like the music industry and world and like getting like and the great unifier is that everybody loves music in the music industry pretty much you know what I mean and like not all the same way but like you can get anybody in the music world talking about their favorite artist and they talk your ear off and that's really exciting especially if you can find any commonality with people and so I'd love to be involved and I think you know you probably have had this a million times and it's a thing you get to do as a co-writer. in a lot of ways.

But you have a label venture, don't you? Uh-huh. Yeah. Like, finding something or making something that you think is great and having some say over whether that thing does as well as you think it should, pretty awesome, you know, I think. Yeah, I mean, the short of it, the business side of it, I think my first record label, I kind of started this thing in college

and then took it out of college and I would got a... How about John Janick starting? fueled by in college. Doesn't that just make you want to kill yourself? It's horrible. Well, this is the thing is that most people in college, same sort of thing. It's like, I'm going to be able to run a record label. The first thing when you're younger is you think, yeah,

I can run a record label. When you're older, you realize you can't. But yeah, Janick, who's both of our A&R, how about that? He's, you know, that guy's a legend because he continues to sign stuff he likes,

and not necessarily stuff that is what everyone else likes. He's always been willing to put his, it seems like he's always willing to work on a project that everyone else doesn't get. Yeah, I hear that. Is that who, did you sign with initially with him? How did you sign to Interscope? So Billy, so I managed to keep myself out of the deal,

which is part of the benefit of always being Billy, not ever structuring it as a duo or anything. You know, we did the kind of, we got to meet with a bunch of people. And what we mainly found was that there were like people we liked everywhere. And it was sort of about the kind of actual kind of structuring of each company that was slightly different. But we met with this dude, Justin Lubliner, who had an imprint at Interscope called Dark Room. And he was very young. I think he's 28 now.

And so at the time he was like 25 or 26. And he was like, you know, obsessed and just like crazy passionate and kind of like, you know, like the kind of famous like, you know, once I'm president, I'll cure cancer. And people are like, why don't you just do it now? If you can do it, just do it now. He was kind of like doing that. And it was sort of like we were all kind of taken aback by it. Like he was like throwing us like great things and opportunities like when there was no guarantee we were going to sign with him. anything, you know?

Sure. And it was like, it was a good strategy because it was like really putting his money where his mouth was. It was just like, check this out, I got you this, and do this, and then what about this, you know? It's a risk worth taking. It is. If you really believe in something, you kind of have to go there. I kind of think you should probably do it even if you don't end up landing it because you

were the guy that did it anyway, you know? And if they go somewhere else, you go like, well, I actually got them that really good thing. But he has this imprint at Interscope and John, to John's credit, was present during our first, like, Billy and my first in-person meeting with Justin. So Billy is signed to the imprint dark room through Interscope, but, yeah, we interface with Justin Lubliner. I mean, we interface, I mean, you know, like, you know so many people at your label after a couple months.

Like, there's tons of people that I love at Interscope. But yeah, Billy's technically on the imprint Dark Room, which is great. And Justin Lubliner is like makes everyone else I know look like they don't work hard that works super hard and like just has this mightest... He's Alec Benjamin's manager

it's just like blowing that kid up right now that's so impressive. I really have like a lot of admiration for Justin. You mentioned your girlfriend which means that you have a social life. I just don't understand how that's possible right now. How do you have a social life? Well, I don't have a social life. I have a girlfriend.

It's a really big difference. She has a social life and I have her and so I know her friends. Yeah, I met her in September and we had a couple mutual friends through music. I had written a couple songs with Rebecca Black of Friday fame a couple years ago, who was a really sweet, really genuine, very tasteful person with like great taste.

Did you hear her second single? I did a song called Satellite with her. Yeah, I don't. Is she actually like people? Did I do Saturday? I don't know. I just remember, you know, it's like that it's a weird thing because she became so famous and then people mocked it.

And then people were like, I mean, this is actually just pop music. You know? And it, and it's, it's one of the, sometimes people get made fun of or it becomes a joke. and it stays in joke land. It's different when Carly Ray's a great artist. But there's a fine line between Call Me Maybe and Friday from what's literally nominated for a Grammy and what's considered a joke online

is a slight melody switch over here. But that vibe and that bubble gum that's attached to it is not... They're not in a whole other... universes. No, and one of the things that I was very relieved about was like, you know, I didn't shouldn't walk in and I was like,

I'm glad we did this session on a Thursday. Like, you know, I was just treating her like any writer or singer. And she's really... Just make that joke just throughout that session just be like, oh man. She's a really good, she's really good.

She's a really good writer and a really good singer. And because I'm the same age as her, basically, like I was 13 when Friday came out. And so I was just like, I was like, if you're willing, like, I've just got to ask you some questions about how that was because I was your age. Like, I was like the peer to that, you know. And she was super open about talking about it.

And, you know, it's also like she's so young and internet exclusive fame, which it basically was is such a specific kind of thing. And when Billy started to get kind of a little bit famous, there were some, like, creepy emails from creepy people and I called Rebecca. I was like, hey, we're getting like creepy fans and she was like, oh yeah, the internet, you know, and it turns out, we've talked to a lot of security about this, that there's a tier of fame that's like way below like A-listers that there's way more creepy people in because even crazy like mentally unstable people see like Katie Perry and they're like, well, they're unattainable.

They're like the most famous. But like that fucking tragedy where the guy shot Christina Grimmie. Yeah. Like my worst nightmare, like her older brother was standing next to her. I think about that way too much. But, you know, she was in that

uncanny valley of fame where it was like had some notoriety but was like, you know, not Beyonce famous. Are you famous? Uh, no, I don't think so. Do you get stopped?

Yes, but I'm pretty unbothered. It's not you ever bother, but I just mean like I don't, I definitely don't have any, like, I can go anywhere and just like do my thing. And maybe one person in the course of my day, I'll be like, hey, I just wanted to, you know, say some sweet thing. Can Billy walk around? No, yeah. It's been a really like, it's been a really interesting year. I'll only talk about my experience with it because I don't want to... Yeah, as you should.

I don't want to say opinions of hers that aren't her opinions. For me, a lot of it as a protective older brother seems very disrespectful and very inhumane in fame. We were walking through an airport in Milwaukee the other day

and the TSA, we're all just filming her on their phones. Wow. And I was just like, you guys fucking do your job? Like, what the fuck is going? you're going to film us and then be like, take your shoes off.

I was like, you can't do both, you know? Right. And so that's like, that's like some level of thing that I probably should just make peace with. But yeah, I mean, like, there's such a weird, it's such a weird thing. I think people, the thing that I mainly talk about,

and like this is a pretty taboo subject, so ultimately it'll get cut out of this because it's very hard to stomach someone talking about fame if it seems desirable in any way. But, I don't, think that that's... You don't think so?

I don't think that's true. Okay. I think you should feel comfortable talking about it because I think it's real. I think it's different when somebody wants to be famous for the sake of being famous. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah, horrible. But if you want to be a musician and you write these songs and you become famous because the music's good,

and then you have to deal with that, that's a different thing. Never would I ever, ever have, like, just if you're like listening to this and you're a fan of Billy's or, mine or anyone's. No one, maybe somebody, maybe some like old crotchety person, but 99% of people, if you go like, hey, sorry to interrupt, you just wanted to say I love your music or your TV show or your whatever, everyone's going to be like, oh, thanks, that's just nice. That's just like literally a compliment, you know. There's just a difference when you're like actually asking somebody to stop what they're doing

for your benefit, you know? And there's definitely a lot of like, yo, my friend listens to all the time. I got to get a picture. They're going to freak. And you're like, okay, you know, like, even if you're, like, in the middle of your dinner at a table and stuff, where it's just like a different, it's like a request. You know what I mean?

I feel like that would be like, it's like the same as like if you walked up to a stranger you'd never met at a table. And you're like, yo, you just take a picture of me. The person would be like, excuse me? You know, it's like bothering somebody, you know? That's just of me. And do you go up to someone you don't know and you say, take a picture of us?

Yeah, take a picture of us, please. Yeah. They're like, I don't know you. Because I have a friend somewhere that's going to get a kick out. There's a lot of instances where, like, you don't want to picture. Like, you're on a plane and you, like, smell bad, you know? It's like, you like smelled good when you got it on the plane. And then you just stewed on the plane for like 14 hours.

And you land in Melbourne. And you're like, I don't smell so good anymore. Yeah. Hey, can I get a photo? You know. So it's interesting to navigate. And I got to give Billy a lot of props for it. She's like, I think, in the same way that she comes across in her music.

in person with people. I think she's like, I watch her interact with kids and I'm like, damn, if I met a person that I really looked up to as a musician and they treated me that way, I would be so stoked, you know. Amazing. Yeah. What happens next for you? Well, the kind of like day-to-day of everything is that we tour a lot for the next

several years. But we definitely aren't going to tour for the next several years without putting out a lot of new music as a you know billy and i together um i get to work on some other cool artists albums this year which has been really fun can you say here um yeah i mean you know as as you probably know better than most like i don't know if the songs are going to make the record but i've been having so much fun writing with camilla cabal yeah um she's so good yeah she is like like i think i want to talk about this for a second just because i think about it a lot which is that like the first several months,

the first several hundred writing sessions I did, I had such a desire to be useful and come up with a really good line. You know? Like even if you're writing with like three great writers, I was like, I really want to be the guy that came up with the pre-chorus of this just so that they think I'm good, you know,

because it was like, I felt like I had so much to like prove, I guess, you know? And you didn't want people to be like, how was that session? Be like, well, you didn't really do much. You know? I was just like desperate to do stuff. With somebody like Camila, like I'm like the best version of myself in this session

is like a good listener because she's so good and she's making her album and like sometimes I'll get a line in you know like I'll just think of something and she'll love it and that's like the right way to go and in her case I'm definitely like focusing on a lot of the kind of music side of everything where it's all kind of course.

Do you think of yourself as a songwriter or a producer? I'm a songwriter, but the lines are so blurred. You know, you got to do both. It's weird when there are five people in a room, you just have to throw in 20% to be an equal writer if you were to really break it down. I mean, most of people that are on this show

are people who can't keep their mouth shut and they're probably 50, 60, 70% of a song. Right, even if they're one of five. Even if they're one of five. Totally. You know, and sometimes part of the, of the trick when you write with artists is to keep your mouth shut for a while and let them have some ownership in it. Because if you go through that entire session and you come up with

all the ideas and it's not really about them anymore, you need to be a listener. That is the 20%, that is the 30% is being the one in the room that can get that person to say what they really Right. And so I think the other thing to me, and this is production-wise, and this is also, like, I think really as a songwriter, is like, I always strive to be, like, the opposite of, like, a, you know, like a signature, like whatever, like, whatever kind of song I make, like, I want to make whatever kind of song the artist makes and hopefully, like, the best version of that. Yeah, cool.

Like, I really, like, I feel like, there's a lot of writers right now where, like, I think even just people who aren't even aware of like songwriting as a kind of an industry can tell somebody wrote one song and somebody wrote another song. And I think that cheapens both artists. It doesn't really make the writer look so bad, but it makes the artists look kind of bad. I mean, even when you have someone like Ed Sheerner, who's super high profile, who's writing music for so many other artists, it's interesting that it doesn't make it, maybe over time it'll dilute his sound. But it's so interesting that when an artist,

it's killed a few writers' careers when they've wanted to be artists. I totally know what you mean. I think about it a lot. I think when you have somebody who's already well known who's writing for other people, it's slightly different. But yeah, I mean, I think you listen to, especially, you know, any given time for top 40, whether it's going back to the Brill Building or it's going to Motown

or it's going to, you know, it's always, you can tell what community wrote the song. That's so true. Yeah. And I, yeah, I mean. Who do you want to write with? My list of people is like really abstract and weird. Yeah.

I'd love to write with shaky graves. Do you know shaky graves? Uh-uh. He's awesome. She knows shaky graves. He's, is this guy named Alejandro. He was in Spy Kids 3. I don't know if you knew that.

I was an avid Friday Night Light, the TV show viewer. there's a plot line where coach Taylor's daughter starts dating a boy that they only ever refer to as the Swede and Eric's like

oh you're going to see the Swede again and she's like his name is Eric dad or whatever he's like his name's Chris and I was like wow what a weird this guy doesn't look Swedish at all like this is such a weird they clearly cast this guy after they called him the Swede and then I was watching

Audio Tree. Do you ever watch Audio Tree Ross it's like a YouTube in studio kind of like BBC Live Lounge but I think audio trees I mean after you send me all these links I will but yeah go ahead I think audio trees in Chicago yeah cool anyway

I'd heard the name Shaky Graves like once I clicked on it and I was like it's the Swede from Friday wow but he's this like really better than the guy from the subway commercial I think subway commercial would be even crazier whoever's attached to Jared Fogel's

prison record is the hardest producer of all time and that dude has like no conscience and is like not planning on going to heaven yeah so shaky graves would be really cool I don't I mean like I feel like

I love writing for people that like are brand new and like anyone that hasn't like if you can get like one little chip on like someone's great third album that's pretty awesome but I think like crafting like the origin story

of somebody is like way better Yeah, the two things that have currency in the music business is someone who can break a career or someone who can revitalize a career. Totally. So I think those two things to me are really exciting. I don't feel qualified to revitalize anyone's career yet in my life. Those happen by accident. Well, I've been asked on purpose to do it like twice,

and I'm always like, who do you think you're talking about? Barely started having a career myself. Well, that's what's weird. Right now if you work on an artist, that someone doesn't know yet. Right. You have your... Your name can carry the weight a little bit now.

A little bit right now, yeah, a little bit. Is that weird? Oh, it's really cool. It's really awesome. I wish my name could have carried people before my name could carry people because it would have helped them. It's been awesome.

But, yeah, I think, like, brand-new artists and then... This sounds really selfish, and it is really selfish. But, like, I think people often, like, some artist will, like, post a song that Billy or I have been involved in. And we'll immediately get pinged with an email from someone on our team like, do you want to get in the studio with them?

And we're like, no, we idolize them and it's enough that they're like enjoying our, like, that's like any form of mutual admiration is like so dope. And you don't always have to like go find out that like you don't really like your hero. You know? So it's a slippery slope for sure. We've definitely been, I've been really lucky in that like a lot of people like, I've loved the artist Father John Misty for several years. Yeah, cool.

And John Janick publishes Father John Misty. Of course. Just like right before the album came out, was like, do you want to write with Father John Misty? And I was like, yeah. And he came over and we talked about like Marvel movies and politics for like 12 hours and wrote nothing. And I was like, this is the best day of my life.

I mean, and the whole point of... I'm so jealous that you have a podcast. This hour. is my favorite part of every writing session with everybody. I just don't monetize it. I mean, that was how it started. It's so funny when you're talking about Cameron Diaz, probably around that time.

She's, because, like, I went to her wedding. She's married to Benji Madden, and I was working with Benji when they were doing the Madden brothers post Good Charlotte, pre-Good Charlotte. And I brought in one of my really good friends who's, his name's Reed Scott. He was in Veep, if you know, the show Veep. And he's an actor.

He's in Venom. He's like, you know, shout out, Reed. And I brought Reed to a session with Benji. I was like, I just want you to see what the first hour is. Because this will be crazy. We're just going to sit there, and I'm going to just let you listen to what it is. and you sit with someone like a Benji Madden who has a

such a crazy story you're a punk rocker from Baltimore and you become the biggest rock band for a few years and you write for all kinds of other people you become a business all the other things you learn all this in an hour

and you've never met this person and the people in the music industry you can't explain it but no one else that I can think of sells air for a living We have the whole idea of intellectual property. Even when it's a painting, you can see it. When it's a picture, you can see it.

You can't copyright food. So the one thing you can copyright that it's really ethereal is... Audio. It's audio. And so we're trying to do... Who are the people... They're all people who probably should have been homeschooled. Do you know what I mean?

They're all people who didn't really interact well, so they went and did something or they interacted too well and then they got sober. It's always these super quirky humans. Did you do, did you abuse or enjoy substances at any point in your life like majorly?

I was in behavioral problem classes in junior high, which is kind of strange. I just, I think they confused class clowns and smart asses and didn't allow me to do like foreign language with other kids because I was too disruptive.

and I was kind of disrupting. You're actually just like writing material. Probably. Yeah. I started writing short stories even then in like eighth grade. I mean, I definitely was into that. But I was so good. I was just, I've been a kind of a workaholic even through high school.

Oh, I definitely was. I don't think I had, you know, it would be like hockey practice into student council. And that's before the school day started, go all the way through school, you know, never had a break and took class during that never took a break and like I'm not discounting like luckiness but like at 21 which I am now like a lot of friends of mine

are like getting out of college because they were like the year older than I was like young for my grade but I was I wasn't in high school and they all kind of were and knew all like I was pretty much only friends of like kids that were in public school and they like

the kind of like success metric were like whatever like they're all having like existential crisis that I felt like I was having from like 13 to now because I knew so clearly what I wanted to do and like what I wanted to succeed in and I was like I have no idea I ever will succeed in that ever

and I was just like I'm just going to like write several songs a day every day and try to like send a petulant emails to people like Danny who's now my man just like just trying whatever I could and now I have friends that are like I'm like I think you've forgotten that I did that for like the last like seven years well that's getting you know it's just offset by seven years like maybe seven years from now

they'll all be where exactly where they want to be but it was like I did that for the last seven you know we said this one you know julia michaels is a good example of somebody who started at 16 when she as a as a professional writer so by the time she was 23 and on this podcast she had had more experience than most people or maybe the same amount of time that I had had writing for other people. Do you listen to the Dax Shepherd, Armchair Expert podcast? I love, I'm like just a fan of his.

I've never met him ever, but I love that podcast. But isn't it funny to you? Especially in acting because I think actors all skew old. But he's often like, where were you at 25? And the person's like, oh, drifting, you know what I mean? And I'm like, wow. Reassuring that four years from now,

I could just still be drifting. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's a kind of a cool, like, how long life is. That's very, like, comforting to me. Yeah. I like that. All right, let's do this next segment because I feel like I could just talk to you for a while

and then it's going to be a nine-hour episode. Six-parter with Phineas. Cool, do a whole... Making a murderer. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm doing enough of the murder genre right now. All right, five for five.

We're going to go, I'm going to name a name, and you're just going to tell me about the first thing is off the top of your head. Okay. Danny and Brandon. Passionate. John Janick. Eagle Eye.

That's cool. It's an interesting one. Thanks. Let's go with your parents. Loving. I like that. Do they understand what's going on with you? Was it me?

Yeah, like, do they get all the, like, how crazy this is? Are they the only two people who get it? Yeah. We don't get it. They get it. They're always like, do you, do you understand? Let's go with Louis Bell. I've, talented.

I've never met Louis, but every time I love anything this year, I'm like, I'm like, oh, it's Louis. It's awesome. Very deserving of his success. And I was in a meeting at Sony yesterday, and I heard that he does lots of impressions. and I do lots of impressions and now I want to have coffee with them and talk to them about that.

Can you give me an impression? No. I knew that was going to happen. Can you do an impression of me? I feel like everyone does an impression of me. I feel like you probably... I think that's a good place to be in. I heard John Mayer in an interview the other day

talk about like if there's an item of clothing that someone's like, that looks like something that Ross Golan would wear, you've made it. Like that's like how... You know what I mean? I just get stopped a lot because when I get stopped it's because someone says,

I recognize your voice. Wow. So I feel like... You go into Starbucks and you're like, a cappuccino plate. You like have to fake your voice. I have a cappuccino place. Like is that Ross?

I'm like, no! No! Billy Elish. hilarious. I like that. That's cool. She's so funny. Well, thank you for doing this.

Man, I'm so happy to have, you know, been here. I was really excited when I got sent the email that I could do this. I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. well i mean look you're obviously like i said in the beginning we're just getting to the beginning of your career where people can we're just getting

we're just getting to the end of your career so i wanted to get you now while it was so cool i have a lot of people in this podcast in the sunset of their career and you're one of them at 21 well you don't know it twilight of his career man you do not know when they are when they are. Gracefully into irrelevance. We're doing a bunch of,

we're starting to do some updates and, you know, where people are. So where are they now? Kind of, because, I mean, look at, look at where, you know, I hope we get Ali Tamposi on. Ali Tamposi is, in the last two years, you know, whatever Spotify Secret Genius Award has been the songwriter of the year. You know, it's like she's,

she went on and did so much and we only did her interview three years ago. You know, it's not to say she wasn't, she was obviously successful before that, and she was successful then. But now she's super successful. But she's out, now, you know, you just never know when, you know, if, look, it's, it has so much to do with the human and so little to do with the, the music for me. I just, I'm a, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a song fan for sure. You're a big people fan. I love the people who are in this industry. Me too.

That's, I'm in the same boat. That's why I like the industry. much. But it is strange. I know that this is only the first time we're meeting, but you're a very easy person to talk to. Thanks, man. And I think for you to have a level head on right now says so much about your parents. They're pretty awesome, man. Your family says a lot about, you know, to be surrounded by other people who are clearly supportive in you being an artist on your own and being able to pursue other things and to be able to go on this journey together as a family is kind of the dream scenario man.

Pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I see them more like I live alone now, but like I see them more on the like on tour than we all do like at home and less billionaire are like in really like a writing zone. That's so cool. Like you know, because I think a lot of people like touring like takes you away from your family. It's pretty awesome to be like

Oh, I get to go on like a prolonged sleepless summer vacation with the folks And with Laura, it's great We bring Laura now She was like, I don't know if anyone told you But I'm coming with you on this tour And I was like, I'm so sorry It's just doing a lot of work

But it's pretty great Well, thanks again for doing this And hopefully this isn't the end of your career Thanks man Awesome Thanks for listening to this episode episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our

Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time. This is Ross Bowman.