And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 69: Sarah Aarons

Episode Date: September 23, 2019

Our next guest is an Australian born and raised, No. 1 charting, Grammy-nominated songwriter. Her passion for music sparked at a young age after winning a songwriting grant, which inspired her to follow the career path of her idol, Sia. After learning Sia – along with her other favorite songwriters Ed Sheeran and Taylor Swift – were signed to Sony/ATV Publishing, she submitted a demo to their Sydney office which impressed Head of A&R, Maree Hamblion and she was later signed. Since then this songwriter has used her unique talent to co-write US and Australian radio charting songs such as LDRU’s “Keeping Score (feat. Paige IV),” Cosmo’s Midnight’s “History,” David Guetta’s “Don’t Leave Me Alone (feat. Anne-Marie),” and two of Zedd’s No.1 hits, "Stay (with Alessia Cara)” and the 2019 Song of the Year Grammy-nominated song “The Middle” with Grey and Maren Morris. She has also crafted songs for major artists such as Camila Cabello, Galantis, Dua Lipa, Demi Lovato, Jonas Brothers, Ruel, Mabel and contributed four songs to Khalid’s No. 1 Billboard Top 200 debut album 'Free Spirit'. In 2018, she received the APRA Breakthrough Songwriter of the Year award and then won APRA’s Songwriter of the Year award the very next year. Additionally, she is nominated for Song of the Year at the 2019 CMA Awards for co-writing Maren Morris’ No. 1 single, “Girl.” And The Writer is… the unstoppable, Sarah Aarons!This episode is sponsored by BMI and Bandzoogle. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 5 of Anne the Writer is with your host, Ross Golan. Before I get my spiel, I want to acknowledge the music army that listens to this podcast every week. Since starting this, the And The Writer is community has literally changed the history of the music business by helping pass the music modernization act, gotten songwriters added to album of the year for the Grammys, and still is advocating for positive changes for our industry. industry on a daily basis. So thank you and congrats. Now, as you know, I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, Big Deal Music Publishing, and

mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. And The Writer Is.com. Today's podcast is brought to you by our friends at Banzugal. Built for musicians by musicians, you can use Banzugel's tools to easily design a way website in EPK, sell your music, merge directly to your fans, and it's commission-free.

Banzugal also recently added a crowdfunding feature, which lets you crowdfund your next project, commission-free. So think about it. Your fans want to help fund your album. You don't need a record deal anymore. You can just use Banzugal. So go to banzugal.com, try free for 30 days. Be sure to use a promo code ATWI, and you'll get 15% off your first year of any subscription. That's ATWI at Banzula.com or 15% off of any subscription. Songwriters, think about your favorite hit song and what makes it in earworm. You could be the writer behind the next song and that goes viral. Enter the 20th annual NSA song contest presented by Martin Guitar's Instrings and CMT.

You could win several prizes, including the one-on-one mentoring session with El King, myself, and fellow in the writer is producer Joe London, the lyric. only winner will score $2,000 cash and mentoring session with award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas, as well as other coveted prizes. Send in your best songs now through October 31st at nsaI.cumt.com. Welcome to And The Writer is, I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's guest is a 24-year-old multi-number-1 multi-platinum songwriting prodigy. In just a few short years, she's already vocoded herself to the top of the charts and followed up that smash with yet another bigger number one

which not only lived at the top but also got a Grammy nom for song and record of the year all the way from Melbourne Australia that's pretty good right no I was like that I actually don't think I could repeat that this human advocates for other humans her soft-spoken strength has already made a lasting impact on the LGBTQ community as well as bravely becoming an inspiration for the healthcare movement in the songwriting community. Not bad for someone who famously can write a hit in 10 minutes.

And the writer is The Incomparable Sarah Arons. Oh, hey. Can you follow me everywhere and do that? Every session. We were just talking about going to Air One, like the grocery store. You'll walk in. I'll do this intro and you can walk over and get a latte. And they'll be like, wow, do you want it, Grande?

like what are you? I feel like they'll pitch the $18 smoothie. Like really hard. Yeah, totally. I know that smoothie. It's like on occasion you feel like I have to try it just to see what it's about. I did. I took one sip and I was like, I'm going to throw up and then throw it out.

But I only did it because they looked at me like, like I said, what's a green, whatever. I had a green smoothie conversation with the person and they were like, but it's $18. Like looking at me like you cannot afford this smoothie I was like okay I was almost like six of them please Just just to show her And I didn't really I hadn't been paid at that point either But I still like in my head was like

Okay You just did an American accent Better than my Australian accent Yeah I was not good I know I feel like doing an Australian accent for an American It's like no offense

But it's hard It is. But American's easy. We grew up on like America TV shows and movies and we sing in an American accent. Yeah. So I feel like it's like. That makes sense. Yeah.

So let's go to the beginning. But you're from Melbourne, right? Yes, I'm from Melbourne. Are you a fan of Australian League football rules? I am. Amoson Kilda's a porter. Yeah. Nice.

I used to live across the street from there like training ground. Crazy. I didn't like understand. it but I was like okay sports cool I don't think people realize how I went to the big stadium there's the

they've changed the name of it what was it was like the MCG yeah that seems like it the MCG yeah MCG and now what is it Marvel I think Marvel bought it it's huge it has like a hundred thousand or that's another one I've maybe messed it up but there's yeah like a huge

huge thing I think people don't realize it when you have Australian football rules, they're like 18 teams or something like that in the whole league. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. And they're from neighborhood. So it would be like West Hollywood versus Silver Lake.

And then it would be, you know, Thousand Oaks versus Torrance or something like that. Yeah. So like local. I lived in Singilda for a bit. But these are pro teams, so you probably knew some of the players, I would assume. Or like maybe you went to high school with kids that went to... I don't do sports, but I'm sure that I've crossed farts with one by accident. I mean, it just seems so crazy because it's not...

Here you have one team per major city. You don't have 18 teams in two cities or three cities. You know, it's basically just Melbourne, a couple teams in Sydney, one in Brisbane or something like that, and maybe one in Adelaide or something. but it's like almost all in Melbourne. Yeah, Melbourne's very... It's like, it looks like Quidditch. Yeah.

Anyway, I don't know. Look, if it was, I'd probably watch it more. Yeah, I don't know why I started talking about that, but I did. No, but it felt important. So, when did you start playing music? Are your parents, musicians? Nope. Everyone in my family is not musical.

Who's everyone in your family? Like parents, brothers. How many brothers and sisters? I have two full brothers and then a spattering of like step siblings. Okay. And none of them are musical. Oh, actually, one of my stepbrothers is musical,

but we didn't grow up together. He was like a different house to me. But he's technically musical, but we didn't ever cross paths. So anyone that I grew up in the house with wasn't musical. How did you become musical? I think I just always sang. Like out the womb was just like,

You know, singing. Do you remember the first song that you sang around the house? Natural woman. Really? Yeah. Was it the Aretha version or was it the Carol King version? I think it was both actually. But I think it was Aretha.

Like I remember it initially as Aretha. Yeah. But I think it ended up being like, my stepdad was like, you know that Carol King actually wrote it. And I was like, oh my God, that's crazy. So did that make you want to write? Were you like at some three-year-old age? I was just like, that's confusing.

thing. Oh yeah. I was just like, why are two ladies singing it? Yeah. I don't think I was super enlightened at that point yet. But you just sat at a piano and sat at a guitar and played chords on both. So you obviously, when did you start playing instruments? Probably just like when I was a kid.

I think I sang a lot and then that I got like a crappy like Cassio keyboard. And I would do the thing where you can like, it lights up the key. that you're supposed to be playing to play the song and then I would be like and I would like sit there for hours and just like do that on repeat. So you're like the first person who's actually taught how to play using that.

Using that function. That's crazy. Yeah. And then I never used anything I did for that but like I would just figure out chords and I like figured out the like CGA minor F because it's so like easy, not easy but you know what I mean. But I would just sit there for like eight hours

playing it around and around in a circle until I eventually wrote a song song on it. What was that song? Oh, it was bad. Do you remember what it was called? Maybe. I maybe remember bits of it.

There are like many songs that were written on that chord progression. What's the first one you remember? The first song I remember, like properly remember, when together we're up high. Together we will shine. Together all the time. Forever you'll be mine. I was like, oh, as a kid,

but at the time, I guess it was like impressive. How old were you though? It was probably like 10 or 11. You know, my first song was called Steve the dog and I was 14. No. And I told the story. It was a story of, I mean, I think I was dabbling a little bit, but that's the first like song I remember being like I wrote this.

It was like a six minute opus. I mean, my friend and I were just writing these like funny songs. That's amazing. So when somebody says, well, I just happen to write together. And it's like suddenly sing about like a pop banger when I was like I wrote like an OG lady Gaga a panger when I was like it. I mean that's, but that that's already more advanced. I mean that actually sounds like a song.

Yeah, it was a song. Yeah. It worked. When did you figure out that you could record this or? I didn't. I actually, there was like a thing at my school. I just started high school, which is in Australia is seven to 12. but year seven to like grade seven to grade top and um yeah i just started there and i think like

in orientation i'd sat down at a piano in the music room because like primary school didn't have a music room and i sat there and i started like playing and singing and i think someone like overheard me and like told a music teacher and the school got asked to do this like competition thing i didn't know it was a competition but it was like a thing called like cool schools where they get like a bunch of public high schools to make an album. And there are 10 tracks on each and it's 10 students slash like groups from the school, like a band from the school or whatever. It's a public school that does that? Yeah. It was like a competition that like came to a lot of public schools. Like the whole state or the whole country maybe. That seems so progressive.

Yeah. Which is like now looking back, I'm very like, wait what? But it was like years nine to 12 with the only ones that were allowed to participate. And I'd like, volunteered to be the photographer for it and go around to the, like, on the studio on the day and just, like, take photos of everyone, like, recording their songs. And I think someone, like, pulled out or something.

Or, like, the teacher heard me, overheard me singing a song I'd written or singing, and he came up to me and it was like, do you write songs? And I was like, yeah. And he said, how many of you written? And I probably at the time was, like, 15. But I was like 11

And I'd written like a few songs And then he was like We have one more spot on this We're not supposed to put like people below this age group But we couldn't find a 10th group slash person So can you do it? And I was like sure And because I was at the thing like taking photos

No one ever like It was all about the older kids Because they thought I was just like taking photos of them So they were like whatever And then they all left one day And I did my one at night And I recorded like the guy I recorded the piano in and I sang it.

And my like stepdad came in and he was listening. And then like I think the next morning I went in and they were playing it back. And these like teenagers came in and they were like, who is this? And then someone like pointed at me and I was like in the corner like with the camera. Yeah. And they were all like, what? And it was. And then I ended up like winning an award from that.

Like out of all the schools in the country like my song on that album was like like won like the singer-songwriter award. Did you at that point think, oh, when I'm older, this is just what I'm going to do? No, but that like fake plaque thing they gave me, it was literally like a CD that had something printed on it, like in it, like it was supposed to look like it was like a vinyl, like, plaque. That was what I looked at in my bedroom, whatever, seven years later,

and was like, that's a songwriter on it. And like, I realized every singing award I'd won. said songwriter on it, not singer. You know what I mean? I never got like the best singer. I always got like the industry award. Or like this, I got songwriter of the year at my singing school. And then I was like, hmm, that's interesting.

The songs you write that clearly are written from someone who can sing. You know what I mean? Like there are certain people who write for melody and that are fun to sing. I mean, that's one of the things that we always talk about. I was like, is the song actually fun to sing? Like, do you want to sing this? Would you want to sing this at karaoke or in your car? Or do you want to sing this?

Not necessarily do you want to listen to it, which is fine. That's a different kind of song. But you write songs that are fun to sing. You know, was there a part in that process where you were like, no, I mean, like you were saying, you saw these plaques and you saw a songwriter. Do you feel like you've given up on being a singer? I don't want to be a singer. I don't, I think giving up is.

Did you want to be before? I think when I was a kid, I just, I don't think when you're a kid and you're singing in like whatever. I don't think you ever look at it as like your, you think it's going to be your career as in this fake way. I never was actually like, oh, cool, so I need to get a record deal and need to go do this. It wasn't like that. It was more like, I like singing. It was in like a way more naive way. And I think when I was like 15 or something and I realized what it entailed and like actually what the like physical job was.

I was like, oh no. I'd like given up on music completely when I was kind of 15 or 16 and really focused in on school. What were you focused on in school? Did you want to be something else? I just love high achieving or whatever and like proving people wrong. So I think I had a moment where I was like doing all creative subjects and the person, the counselor at school or whatever was like, if you do all creative subjects, you can't get over 90 for your end of year score. And getting over 90 is like your mom's proud of you, whatever. And that's like the big thing.

And if you do creative subjects, I get marked down because it's like easy to do like okay. Yeah. But it's not easy to do like absurdly well in them because they're so like subjective. I mean, that's what got me into a good school was that I was good at. Music and music and theater.

Yeah. I got my GPA up enough that good schools were like, wow, this guy's really good. If you're properly good at it, you can get a really good mark. But it's just like easy to get like a good. Mark. And it's like hard to exceed at it past everyone else. So that's like a national comment though. They look at your grades and if you have all grades.

So this was to get into college? Is that what they're counselor? Oh, I see. And then I was like, well, I can do that. Fuck you. I'm going to get over 90. And I dropped all the logical subjects that got marked up on purpose because I was like so pissy. And I'm such a bitter person.

I dropped maths and I dropped whatever else like history and geography and I did psychology which was like the softest of the sciences and I did English media art like I did oil painting and I did music. Are you good artists?

I can oil paint portraits of people and that's like the only Does it look like them? Yeah I'll show you later. Cool. I'll send you a picture of me. My stepdad's like a painter. Yeah, I could do it. I haven't done it in ages but my stepdad's like an insane artist. And when I was a kid, he taught me how to do oil paintings.

Is there a similarity between that and music for you? Nope. I feel like if anything, it's like the opposite. I feel like with that, I know how to do one thing because someone taught me how to do one thing. With music, I have no clue how I know how to do it. And it's like any instrument or any song or any music. I just click to.

Whereas with art, I'm like, it has to be oil painting. Like, I can't do any other type of paint. And it has to be like portraits of people's faces. Because I just know how to do it. I know the formula in my head. The, but you don't think of, when you write music, you're not thinking it all formulaically. No.

You just write hits songs. Yeah. I like whatever. It's so hard. I hate you so much right now. This feels good. I think it's going well. Exactly, right, exactly.

When you said you're a bitter person, you don't really seem like a bitter person. Are you actually a bitter person? I'm like a revenge person, but not in like a, I'm like a positive revenge. Like if someone tells me I can't do something, I will go and do it very well. Yeah. I will achieve very highly in it. Yeah. What is that right now for you?

Um, oh, there are so many things. It's okay. We have time. We can't edit through when this is. If this is three hours long, we'll edit it. I think it's everything. Give me number one. I think just like, oh, there are so many things.

I feel like I could like executive produce an album. I feel like that's a thing that like, I didn't know. It's more things that like haven't been done by small women that aren't the singer. I feel like I could like, I don't know, there are just so many things that it. This is more like the world telling you can't do it. But I feel like becoming a songwriter, everyone was like, oh, Okay, if you say so, give it a go. And I was like, well, I'm going to go kill that.

Yeah. And then that was the same as school. I ended up doing, like, extremely well in all the subjects. Got my name in the paper. Family was very proud. Because you scored over 90? Yeah. I scored over 40 and, like, all the subjects and then got over 90 for my overall score.

By the way, that means almost nothing to me. I know. The score system is different. I was in the newspaper. Yeah, that's cool. It was good. I was in the newspaper. It was fancy.

Yeah, of course it was. You start at some point, did you go to college? For a minute. Where? I went to a place called Monash in Australia. Okay. And did you study, what did you study there? I studied film and television and communications.

What in film and television? Oh, it was like theory. It wasn't like, it's not like L.A. Australia is like, if you're studying film and television, you're like analyzing, you're never doing anything physical. And the same with music. I used to go to the music department and like just part my head in, check it out. And it's all just theory.

I think the only jobs you can get in Australia are quite practical. So if my view of what my life was going to be was I was going to work at like a TV station in Australia maybe for like the morning show but I'd be like a person with a clipboard and I have like a little headset and I'd wear it all black.

I'm really suiting that today. Yeah. And then I'd be like behind the camera and be like, Guys, you've got to, like, I'd be that guy. And I'd, like, organize things. You can still probably do that when... Look, it doesn't look as good as...

When music stops working out so well, you know, you can always go and be the lady with the clipboard. Or I can just go around to studio as an oil paint, people. Yeah, exactly. It's like a court, like, when they don't allow cameras in a courtroom and there's the guy who sketches it. I'm, like, in the studio, just like... You want to know a really funny story?

Yes. Always. This is potentially a deletious. leadable, but maybe not. I don't know. We'll see how brave I get. But after my first album, it totally flopped. Congratulations. And it's like 2004 or five.

Yeah, just like, you know, toured around. It sold no records. I was pretty depressed. My sister was a commercial agent. She's like, you should audition for commercials. And I was like, I don't know. I mean, I did theater growing up, but I was like, I don't. She goes, just get out of the house, go, you'll meet people.

And the very first audition I have is for Subway, and it's shooting in Sydney, and I book it. The very first one. And they flew me that weekend to Sydney for a week. No. And like, SAG rules her, if it's international, you fly first class, you get picked up in a limo. No. You stay at a four-star hotel. What?

You go and there were like a hundred extras and they all thought I was a famous actor. I was like, no, no, I have, you know, I'm in a band and this is like. And I'm, but then it was like this commercial where they shot it with an Australian guy and with an American guy. But it was like the whole thing was like the F word, which was supposed to be fresh. But it was all like go play on the F word. And it was like in Australia they could play it, but you know, Americans wouldn't allow it. So you're like sweet. So I got.

No one ever. There's no evidence of this commercial. There's evidence if I'm duct taped in a closet, I could probably find a way to find it. But that was the first time I was in Australia was because I was like, I don't know, maybe this music thing is working out and ended up shooting a commercial for like five days. I've probably seen it. Doesn't that make you feel good? We've met before via the TV.

No, they didn't air. me, they aired this. But the other guy was like... You didn't even make the cut? Well, it was just me doing the whole commercial and it was like four commercials. And then they had this Australian guy who's this really good looking like he was in like a daytime show in Australia. So for sure you know that guy. Probably.

Which I'm sure I can hunt down. Yeah, please do. That is a true story. Moving on. So when in there are you like screw going to? finishing college. You know what? I'm going to go and write and win

REO awards. I haven't won one to be fair. I thought you were, oh, it was, wasn't it a, oh, nominated. I'm about to join the nominated never wins club. Oh, sick. I love it. Nice.

It's a nice place to be. Yeah, sure. No, what happened? Yeah, I was studying and then I had large surgery and that kind of like flipped everything on its head. What was that? I had my ankle replaced but it like went south and I got staff infection and like

it was like a near near ending experience. But there was a moment where a doctor just like walked in and was chatting about everything and then went oh by the way you should apply for disability pension if you haven't already. because like there's no way on earth you can ever work a normal job like you couldn't sit for 9 to 5 you can stand for 9 to 5 you can hardly walk down the street

so you can't stay awake from 9 to 5 like he was just being logical he wasn't like being rude or anything he was just like in Australia that's 9 to 5 so everything so he was kind of like you should apply for that now so you start getting the payments like when you leave the hospital How old were you?

19. Wow. Yeah. Wait, so can you explain what happened to your ankle in the first place? So I have rheumatoid arthritis, which is like autoimmune situation. And I've had it since I was six, so I don't really remember not having it. And it's just been like progressively worse my whole life. And then it really kind of like hits a wall at that point.

And then I had a moment where I was like in my room. room and I saw that like award that was like a songwriting award and I was like that's a bit weird I don't know and then I think yeah see her wrote diamonds and she is so big in Australia as an artist already that it was quite a publicly known thing when she'd written songs for like katie perry and biont and all these people and I think that was like a crazy moment and then I went into the rabbit hole which is like you know diane Warren Julia Michaels and like BB Rexa and like all these people that have written

these crazy songs and then you like find out that they've written like other songs you love you know that first moment you realize songwriters are a thing it was like so amazing and I'm sitting in my bedroom like holy shit and I think I was like writing diary entries at this point because I was really like bored out of my mind I've been in hospital for so long

and I still like I'm scared to look at them but I definitely still have one that's like I'm in hospital and I just found out about this girl like Julia Michael, she's only a year older than me and she's written all these hits and I really want to like go be a songwriter. I think that's what I'm going to do. And like, I can't believe that that.

It's like so weird. And now you're friends with all these people. Yeah, I know. That's the weird a bit. And I've definitely like told Julia. I'm like, you're the reason I'm here. Yeah, of course she does. She's the sweetest person ever.

So it is like it is just this weird. It's such a weird turnaround moment. But yeah. So when you left, what's the next step to go from? Well, I'm going to leave this hospital where this guy's like, no, you can't live a normal life. You're like, okay, cool. I'm not going to live a normal life.

I'm going to go write a bunch of songs. And then do you just like walk over to a studio? No, I didn't even know what a studio was. What's the process from being like, I want to do this? It's in my journal. And I think even when you write it out or you say what you want to do for anybody, it adds like, yeah. adds like an accountability to at least yourself. Yeah, I think I like told my best friend as well.

I like went to her and I was like, it was like very official. I think I'd never played my songs for any of my friends or anyone except my stepdad and I'd kind of gone to my best friend's house and I sat on her bed with my guitar and I was like and she's so blunt. Like we call her the blunt one of the group because you'll come up and she'll be like those sunglasses are ugly. But she's like not being mean. She's being like, I'm letting you know so that you know that they look ugly. And I kind of went to her house in my guitar and I sat down on her bed and I was like, tell me the truth. Am I good at this? And I like sang her like two songs, I think, which was like mortifying for me. And she was like, if you put it in Destiny's Child Terms, she's like,

this is literally what she said. And she like hates that I tell people this. But she said as a singer, you're like the Kelly. You're like really good, but you're not like Beyonce. but as a songwriter, you're the Beyonce. Wow. And she hates that she said that. Why does she hate that? Because I think it makes her look like she said I was a shit singer. But at the time I was too, so she could, like, that's fair.

Well, first of all, it's, you know, there were other people that she could have named in that group that she didn't. So let's say that it's that. Don't hate on Michelle, okay? I'm not. I'm just saying. No, it's fun. Songwriters, you could be the Grand Prize winner and score up to $5,000 in cash, one of 12 Martin guitars, as well as mentoring session with El King, Joe London, or myself. The lyric winner will win an opportunity to be mentored by award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas

as well as other coveted prizes. Enter the 20th annual NSAI Song Contest presented by Martin Guitar Strings and CMT, now through October 31st at NSAI.c.cm.com. and SAI, the National Scholars Association International is one of the biggest supporters of songwriters and played a major role

in helping pass the Music Modernization Act, a historical piece of legislation that allows you to have a future as a songwriter. This is your opportunity to experience industry access, one-on-one mentorship with hit songwriters

and fun your creative passions. Song and lyric-only categories are open now for submissions. We can't wait to hear your songs. Today's podcast is brought to you by the musician website platform, Banzoogle. For regular listeners, the man the writer is,

you already know you can use Banzugal to design a website, EPK, you know, sell your music, merch, commission free from your website, use the tour calendar to promote your shows, collect emails from fans, send professional newsletters, yada, yada, yada, yada. But Banzhugal just did some new things since season four. They added fan subscriptions. So now your fans can pay a monthly fee in exchange for exclusive rewards and access to your music, giving you recurring revenue for your career.

I mean, think about it. You're basically like the Taylor Swift of Do It Yourself Musicians. You can now easily add any kind of content to your subscriber pages, including a blog feed, music, videos, photo galleries, and more. When you want to send an update, you can simply send a messenger to subscribers using, a built-in mailing list tool. And like all of the Banzoogle sales, you know, tools, the subscriptions,

all these things are commission-free. So all payments from your fans go directly into your account. So go to Banzoogle.com and try free for 30 days and use the promo code ATWI to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. That's Banzo-com promo code ATWI to build your website for your music. I will say that, you know, like I'm a, I'm a pretty good singer, but I think I'm a much, I've learned right for my voice.

And when you're limited on some level, that, you know, I'm not doing a bunch of runs all over the place. I know it's such a cop out. I love it. What, to do runs? To do runs. Yeah, so it sounds good. Like, when I know I'm writing a shit song and I'm kind of in there and I'm like, I still want them to think I'm good. But that's like, I don't know.

I just think that there can be an advantage to not being to not being the Beyonce of singers while you're trying to also be a writer. I think those people think, let me show you this. And you're like, no, no, no. Don't worry about that. We'll get that in the ad libs when we're recording.

Let's write the song. Let's like get a good song. Yeah. Well, I don't record until the song's done. That's like a thing. Yeah. And I think that helps me. If anyone's like, just go on and do some mess.

melodies, like on the mic. I can't do that because I'll just do runs. And everyone's like, sick. And I'm like, that's not a song. That's like me just like flexing. Yeah. Like it's really, I always have to write the song before I record it, I find. I want to ask more about that, but you go from telling your friend I'm going to be,

you're now the Kelly. I'm the Kelly of singers, the Beyonce. That is a compliment and a half. I think so too. I don't, that's why I'm saying. There are ways you could be, if they, she. She could have gone and been, like, gone for the jugular. Yeah, she didn't.

She didn't. She was really, it was a supportive thing. Also in Australia, I think it's like, even now. I hope you say also in Australia, Kelly's the one that everyone loves. Yeah. Wouldn't that be amazing? That's what you, whatever you're about to say.

Kelly is actually like dope in her own right. But like it's like, whatever. At the time from face value of destiny's child time. Yeah. That was like saying something. And then I think I just like decided to do it. Like, I just, in my head was like, I was still studying and I was still working as a babysitter, killing it. Oh, yeah.

So I was still, like, full-time studying. Did you see any kids and stuff when you were babysitting? I taught the kids how to sing. Oh, cool. Yeah, it was rocky. And I was a singing teacher. You must have been the coolest babysitter now that they're like, you know, you don't understand who babysits for me. Yeah.

Well, I actually visited them last time I was home, like the most recent family. the girl is like the coolest thing ever she loves making playlists like I would come on like take them home from school and her like fun time would be going on Spotify and curating playlists and I was like you're the coolest kid I've ever met it was really weird because I went back there and I was like tell me like what music do you like at the moment and it was like a while ago and in Australia

with Khalid young dumb and broke was like absurdly bigger than location It was kind of like the other way around And she was like I love Khalid And I was like which song And she was like location And I'm like good girl You know which one was like

The dopest one Like they're both great songs But I feel like that one for me is like He's career defining song Yeah and you're you're slowly Publishing this girl Yeah I really In my head I'm like

I just want Yeah exactly Right you're already pointing out Which books are Well let's go into the professional I mean, how do you end up getting, you know, I don't know who L.D. R.U. I have no idea who they are. Yes.

But keeping score is a multi-platinum song. Yeah. I, you know, you obviously weaseled your way in somewhere. I made my way in. I just like, I kind of decided on Sony ATV, I think, because Cia was Sony A TV, maybe. but I had the tab up in my computer all the time and I just emailed a billion people I figured out a life hack that if you look at the way the emails

like they always put the intern's email on like the thing but it's first name dot last name yeah right I feel bad that I've said this publicly now but at SonyATV.com so I was like that's interesting and then I just started like aggressively emailing everyone like even like American A&Rs

I would just like Google singers or songwriters I loved and find interviews of them talking about who signed them, like things like that. And I just went crazy and sent, I would write a song every day and I would send, like, record and send the one I thought was the best from that week. Did you record it at home? Yeah, just like garage fans.

Yeah. Like, properly bad. Yeah. And then one day I got a voicemail message while I was babysitting, didn't answer the phone. And they were like, who called you? And I was like a telemarketer. Like, who cares?

And then they left a voicemail. I was like, oh, that's weird. And I listened, and I still have this voicemail message. And it was Marie at Sony ATV in Australia, who I'd been, like, emailing. And she's just like, hey, I've just listened to your song. Can you give me a call? And I, like, freaked my shit. I, like, didn't even call her back.

I called my stepdad. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then he was like, and what did she say? I'm like, oh, I haven't called her back yet. And he was like, you're an idiot. Hang up on me and, like, try.

And she never answered. when I tried to call her back. And then I emailed her and I said, hey, like, sorry I missed your call. I was thinking, but, like, call me back. And she didn't. And it had been, like, a week or two. And I was like, fuck, this woman doesn't give a shit, like, whatever.

And I had it one day at university that had, like, classes back to back. And I was like, today is my last day of giving a shit about whether this woman likes me or not. I'm going to call her between every single lecture today. and if she doesn't answer by the end of the day then I'll go fuck myself pretty much and then I called her in the morning and it would only ring like four times

there was something weird about her phone now I'm aware that she's not very tech savvy so I'm like I understand the picture here but I would call twice and I didn't think that it had call her ID on it because it was like a home phone number or whatever like a landline so I'd call twice she wouldn't answer

and I'd go to and I left a voicemail on like the first one of the day and then I went to my class and I called twice in between that one and the next one, went to my class, called twice, and then in my last class of the day, I was like, in the middle of the lecture theater, I was really just smack bang in the awkward center, and I was just telling my friend next to me,

like, this woman, like she called me last week, and I can't get attention to that, da, da, da. And then the class started, and it was about halfway through this very boring lecture, and I looked down on my phone's ringing, and it says, like, Marie Hambly and Sony ATV, and I was like, and I just got up. I was like, I don't give a fuck.

And I answered it and I went, hey, one sec. And I just walked out of this lecture, like, mid this person talking about something boring. And I don't think I went back after that, actually. But I answered it. And she was like, I want you to come to Sydney. I want to, like, see what you're like in a studio. Did she laugh at how tenacious you were? I think like.

I feel like there's, it was like a level where she's probably like, listen, it's okay. I'll call you. I'll call eventually. No, she's bad at answering phone. So I think she was like, thank you for being on me because I'm like shit at this. Yeah. Which I get like, that's a good teammate then. I mean, when you have that kind of already, she's probably, though, then this is perfect.

Yeah. It did work. And I remember once I kept, I was like sending her songs every week regardless. and I remember one of the email like she wouldn't reply to all of them but she wrote back and went this one's good too and I said sorry I'm sending you songs every week it's like a bit

don't me to harass you and she wrote back harass away and I remember being like okay like you're gonna regret saying that but okay and then pretty much there was this like riding camp in Sydney that happens every year it's like an annual thing that I didn't know about now I know that and

it's the APRA one it's run by opera and I'd never been before. I'd actually won an opera award when I was like 12 for a songwriting thing as well. I won like $3,000 when I was 12. That's amazing. Like a songwriting grant and I bought like a guitar and a piano with it. A whole other thing.

So Afra is like a nice thing throughout my own life. But I pretty much like she hadn't gotten back to me about it and I was like Jesus cross. So I wrote to her and I was like where is it like I'm booking my flights like I paid for my own flights and I paid for my accommodation. I'd never been to Sydney before. I'd never kind of gone anywhere by myself before. You didn't think that your publisher would pay for your flight?

Well, she wasn't my publisher yet. I didn't even know what a publisher was. I'm going to find your publishers at Sony ATV and make sure that you're reimbursed for all of these flights. You should have an accommodation. I was sleeping on a few floors for a minute there. I'm sure. Buying some takeout. Buy and some pizza for those people. Um, yeah, and I went up for this camp and on the first day they put up a, it was like you find out who you're in with on the day and they put up all these papers on the wall. My name wasn't even up there. So I'm looking up and I'm like, I have flown to Sydney. I've spent money and my fucking names are up here and I'm deluded and I'm like crazy. And then I went up to the lady running it and she was like, oh, so sorry, that's really weird. And she just like wrote my name on one of the rooms. And I went in and wrote a song and they made me vocal it even though there was like an artist there that was actually like a really famous Australian band and I like ended up. Eskimo Joe.

Okay. It's the whole thing. And they have a song called Sarah and I ask so many questions about it like later when I figured out it was him. But I would have been so nervous if I knew it was him before I went in and pretty much a song that I wrote on the first age is like circulated wildly throughout the industry. And I had like many offers but obviously like Marie was the one. Yeah, totally. That was the first email I sent to out of the hundreds that I sent was to her.

So it was like a weird. Yeah. It was like a beautiful moment. It was like, what to waste my time emailing bloody everyone else. There is something where the first person who responds who has is at a certain level. You know, at that A list level of publishers, they, there's just different. I mean, some of them are better suited for you. but if there's a really strong one that's like I'm interested in their corresponding with you.

Yeah. The idea of shopping for the best deal often puts a strain on the relationship that does matter. Yeah. The one that you'll end up with anyway. It'll end up causing a lot of different. I don't know there's a lot of value in just being like, no, that's the one. I don't think I even met with anyone else. Yeah.

Because I was like, well, she's the reason you guys even know who I am. so like why would I go with anyone else? You end up with, you know, you have a few songs that come out in 2015, 2016, and these songs are like one or two cuts in in the first couple of years. Are you discouraged at that point? Or are you just sort of like, no, this is a blast. I have a publishing deal I can eat and I can go and write songs. Well, I feel like the first eight months I was like going to Sydney a lot

and paying for it all myself. And I know I don't look at me like that. Same TV. I know, I know, I know. And I was like sleeping on friends' couches that were like two buses and a train from the city. Like it was really far out. But I actually love taking the bus there

and it was like beautiful. But it was like a little bit rough. And it got to a point where I was like, how come no songs are coming out? Like they would just take songs from the reliable people that had already written them like for like X-Fact. or winner singles or whatever,

they'd go with the same guys that write them every year, which I understand why. And also they were on a production deal to do them. So it was kind of like, I was just screwed at that point. And then pretty much I was in Melbourne

and there's a Sony ATV rep in Melbourne and I was like complaining. And I was like, I write songs. The whole time I'm in Sydney, I'm doing sessions every day. I'm working so hard. Everyone says my songs are good, but then they don't use them.

Like I just don't understand what I can do any better. and it's been like eight months. And I was also writing songs in my bedroom. And then Weez, the guy in Melbourne, was like, why don't you come over to the studio and like, let's have a chat? And I went and met with him and I just played him some of the stuff I'd like done in my bedroom in Melbourne.

And he was like, can you just send me the a cappellas for some of them? And like, let me just send out to a few people. Like, you're doing well. Like, just be patient. And I was like, okay. And then within the 15 minute drive home, I had an email back saying this guy, LDIU, really wants. He wants this song and he wants it to be the first single.

And I was like, great, go, take it, bye. Can I sign something that says that's going to happen? Like, please, please. And then pretty much we got to the studio and I met him and I was like, cool, who's going to sing it? And he was like, you? I was like, oh, that was so my nightmare. And like not what I wanted. But I just knew at the end of the day the song wouldn't come out.

It's also like very, very much a DJ song. it's got a drop. Were there TV performances? No, I never, no. You never played in front. I did one at a festival wearing sunglasses because I wanted free tickets to the festival. I'm really glad I'm saying this out of that.

But no, he knows that anyway. And it was really fun. I took my best mate that told me I was the Beyonce of songwriting. She came with me. I also think Kelly is singing though. Yeah, Kelly was singing. And then I'm on stage at this festival just flipping her off on the side.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and then that song came out, and he was like, look, it might get on Triple J, which is like a big kind of cool culture station in Australia. And like Flum and Seaer and All Tame Impala came off the back of Triple J, which is crazy. And now kind of like me to an extent, I guess. But that song just blew up. Like it was number one on Triple J and went mainstream and was up for like three arias

and was like bonkers. But no one knew who I was. It didn't have my name on it. Like, but it was a hit. Was it a huge hit? So they were like, well, yeah, I mean, she was good at 11. At 11 when she wrote that song. I mean, is there a point where they kind of just assume, yeah, that's the natural path for a human?

No, no. Everyone still looks at me and is like, this is very weird that this happened. Like, it's just not normal in Australia, like whatsoever. Well, you know, one of the differentiators and the writers that we've had conversations with. Some are people who studied and studied and they had to grind for 10 years and they've kind of like rung the bell so to speak once or twice. You know like gotten to the top but it's like a long

slow educational process. And then there's the you know the Julius and the Bennies and these people who they don't think about it. They just keep writing hits. And, you know, and the fact that you have... That's a way to look at it. You have, you know, your first song out gets nominated for an ARIA award. Yeah, but I'd also written like a few hundred songs.

Totally. I mean... But yes, that's... The first one that came out. The first one that came out. And you're right. I mean, there's... But I'm quite a quality control person.

Yeah. Like, I... My nightmare is like a song, a bad song coming out. Yeah. Like, it hurts me. physically. But I was also on a clock. Like, in my head, I was like, I'm going to be in a wheelchair in a few years. I need to kill this now.

And I had this theory where I was like, if Sia was in a wheelchair, I obviously loved Sia. But I was like, if she was in a wheelchair, they would build a ramp to the studio to get her into it, which is true. Yeah. And I was like, cool, like, that's all I need to be. Yeah. Like, I need to be that good.

So I was on a clock in my head. So I think I worked, like, absurdly hard. Why did you feel like, I mean, obviously the doctor said that this is going to be tough, but, you know, you haven't, you're not, you're not exactly, like, lazy of a person. I mean, why didn't you say, well, let's take it slow and make sure that my, in a way that, I don't know, why did you feel like you were on a clock? I mean, I understand. I just, like, I could hardly walk down the street.

at that time. Like, no one really knows it because I'm really good at hiding it. And no one has known it till now, but, like, I could maybe walk for five or ten minutes. And if I did, I wouldn't be able to walk for, like, three days after. Sure. So I was just like, oh, fuck, like, this mobility thing is not going to last very long. And it had only gotten worse my whole life. There was never a point where I was like, wow, I feel like much better than I did last month.

Like, that was never a thing. Sure. It was like a slow decline. So I felt like, I was like, I really just. have to be the best at this asap and I'm going to do everything in my power to like be amazing. Did you have any personal life? No, not at all. Like zero personal life.

What brings you to the United States? Well, glad you asked. I had that really big hit in Australia and I just was like, cool, next as like all over achievers do. and I just, I don't know, I think I was like starting to get weird, like, depression-wise. I, like, kind of was just getting in this weird space and go into sessions and just, like, didn't know what my purpose was anymore. And then I was like, I need to go to America. Like, I am running out of money because Australia doesn't make a lot of money musically.

And I was like, like, platinum's 20,000, 70,000, which is like, it's a million here. So the ratio is different. And I, um, I just knew I had to go. I was like, this is how much money I've left. This is how long the visas for. It's like a 90-day visa, and I did 89 days until 11 p.m. on the 89th day. And I worked every day. I stayed in the worst Airbnb you've ever seen in your life with other people in it.

And took Uber pools. Oh, you just got a room. Yeah, I just got a room that the door didn't close properly. It was like a no air conditioning. Who was setting up your sessions for you? It started me just being like any human I know in L. and then I went to one meeting at Sony ATV here because that's kind of what you get as an international person

that's signed to their company. Sure. And the meeting didn't go great. But there was this guy that was like fresh off being an assistant, Nick Brawl and he was like kind of walked up to me as I was leaving going to the elevator being like, well that meeting was shit. And he was sitting in the back of it, obviously just like observing and learning.

and he was like, I think you're really talented and I really want to help you. Like I've just been promoted to being a junior A&R and like I haven't signed anyone yet. So I really want to help you. And at first I got his email and I was like, sure dude, whatever. And I kind of would like send him songs.

And then he started like pitching my songs like crazy. And I was like, okay Nick, that's cool. And then he really like just, I even find out, have found out more now that he was like going ham for me like yeah he's a real champion yeah i was just riding every day and then he like i think i got set up in a really bad session by sony tv and i was like fuck this and then he called me and was like please please please all the sessions will go through me like i promise i'll only set you up with people that like i think you'll enjoy

and then he sent me out with someone uh jordan palmer who's like still a good friend of mine now and he's like a sick producer and I was like oh cool I love this kid and then from then on it was all like good stuff and I would just it's just that session thing you write a song and then they go oh I want to write more songs with you and then you do different artist sessions if it's the producer you go to different producers with that artist yeah there's no way to speed that up yeah that process I mean I it looks like you you your first five songs are all hits but it is what you're saying it's like it takes a lot of writing but I wrote within that time I wrote like 500 songs or something. But yes, the ones that have come out have maybe been a bit bit of. But also it shows that there's this thought process of don't do a publishing deal

and save your publishing. It's like, look at it. It depends who you are. It's different for everyone, but. It is different for everyone. But one thing that you can show is like before you had the publishing deal, you didn't have hits.

I had nothing. I'd never been in a publishing. deal and you had hits in the countries signed your publishing deal and then you went to the US and and they funded that like that was my advance you know what I mean if they didn't also I got a meeting at Sony ATV in the US from it yeah like if I didn't have that door open then I may have never met Amanda sure like there's just a lot yeah and I think that the

these companies are all very large in record companies publishing companies PROs they're huge They have a lot of people who work there. There are people in all of them that are qualified, good, strong, you know, publishers and are people. And, you know, finding those people can be, you can meet with five people at a record label to find the right. The right one. And it's nothing personal. They can still be good and look after someone else better.

But I think that's so true. I think it's all about people. People always look at like companies like that. And they're like so bitter about it. And they're like, oh, fuck the big company. Like, fuck my record label or whatever. And then I'm like, well, I know it's different for everyone and people do get fucked over. But for me, like, I am so grateful for all the people.

Like, think about it, Marie sign me. This guy, whee's got me my first big cut. I come over here. I meet Nick. Nick champions me like crazy. And then I meet Amanda. Like, this is all people at Sony ATV. And it's kind of like, whether they're at that company or another company, it's all about people.

Yeah. So you can find your person. And I also get mad when like people dismiss the lower down like people like Nick was an assistant three minutes before I met him. And then he was like a junior A and R and he smashed it. And now he's like killing it as well. That's probably the best advice I got at because I went to school where they did have a degree of music industry and stuff.

But the one piece of advice that I think that was like that stood out amongst everything else was be friends with assistants. because they will become bosses. And the way it works. And that's how you build your community in your generation in the music business is that the people that you meet in the beginning are going to be further and further.

They come up with you as well. And eventually they'll be the big Johns and Guy Moots and Carrie Ann Marshalls and they'll be the heads of these big publishing companies. Nick will eventually be a president of a company because he hustled so hard as a junior A&R. Yeah, 100%.

Stay, that was a big song. Yes. So I'd done my first trip in L.A., that one. And on the last day, I met Amanda. And that was like a life-changing. I now realize a life-changing meeting. She's like looking at me being cute. Okay.

She's in the room, full disclosure. Yeah, full disclosure. The manager is in the room. for if I start saying something stupid and she needs to look at me and make eye contact. Don't say that stupid thing. She'll say it. It's fine.

She has no problem. But then she pretty much was like, put me on every email, send me every song you write. Let's go. And then when I got back, there was this riding camp in Colorado that had like nine people.

It was like a small thing that Amanda was curating and Ali Tamposi actually pulled out. I didn't know. Ali at the time. I didn't know anyone that was there except Alex Hope and Amanda was like, do you want to come to Colorado next week? I was like, okay, I'll do it. Like, yes to everything. Like, I'm in. I trust this woman. And I met Noonie. And she'd like just got enough of flight to Sweden and we like wrote a song and we just hung out and I was like, this girl's really cool. I want to write with her. And then like the only other day we both had free for our trips from our

separate countries was like we had two days I cancelled one of them and then that one day we wrote Stay so crazy yeah that was like

that's so weird to me that that could have very easily not happened it's also the first song that you write in the US that I imagine that everyone in Australia heard just as much as they heard here

as much as they heard it in Sweden I mean that song was just so so big that song was everywhere it's one thing thing when it's a big hit at home. And also people don't, if you're in Australia, you know Australia radio. Now it's more international because of streaming. But for the most part, you listen to that.

It's cool when you can see it from a bird's eye view and be like, wow, everyone in the US and everyone in Australia and everyone in Sweden. Yeah, I think it was when my friends, they would like go to Bali or some shit. This is when I'd get messages from them. It's like they'd be in Bali or like somewhere not Australia. they'd be like, whoa, stay is playing. And that's when they'd be like, oh, it's not just like our little like nutshell of a country. Like hearing it there, it's kind of like everywhere.

Did you slow down after any of that? Like, did you celebrate? No. Oh. Do you know how to celebrate success? No, I think I do it awkwardly. I like awkwardly make us, I like made like Noonnie and Linus and like I made them do weird. It's like we, I don't know, like we did a spa day, but I feel like that was definitely

like us being like, let's do a thing. Because like we should probably celebrate, but we're like really busy. So let's make it something that's like relaxing. You still are, you still remember that as being a way to celebrate. But I was also like extremely sick at the time. So I had like, I couldn't drink. What were you sick from? The disease.

The disease. autoimmune disease. And I was super sick and I was on like this chemotherapy medication that's like small doses of chemotherapy. And I was just like a yellow person literally and was like not functional and couldn't eat and couldn't sleep. And it was like a weird time. I think I had like a meltdown when stay went number one

where I was just, I think I like had this weird assumption that all my problems would be fixed if I succeeded in this nearly impossible career. because that in my head was like such a feat that it would eliminate anything bad in my life because if I can achieve that then why would I be sick anymore? Sure. Or something.

I now look back. I'm like, that's not logical. But I think I hoped that. When we talked the first time, the concept that I was saying that, you know, we really need health care for songwriters in the U.S. Please. Anyone listening? Yeah.

We make a lot of money for these PROs who have the numbers of writers to support, you know, potentially a group insurance that we could all get decent health care. I mean, how is going through this process? With zero health insurance in the US. How does it work? It was really expensive. No, I went home really often. I went home like four or five times the first year.

to pick up my medication because I couldn't get it here because it was too expensive. It was like a couple thousand dollars per injection. So I would go home and they have to be refrigerated. So I'd go home and like get them in bulk. See all my doctors. Stay home for only a week and then come back and keep writing songs. It's crazy. It's absurd.

I don't know how I did it. And also I think you said that didn't when stay went number one? Didn't you isn't your ankle break during that time? When we wrote it? My other ankle, weirdly enough, it was the week we wrote Stay was like my last week in L.A. that year. Yeah.

And I'd done like another small trip and it was my last week and I'd gotten out of my friend's car after a session, maybe like the day after we wrote Stay. And I'd been working every single day. Like I worked Sundays. I was like, I have no money left.

This is my only chance. if I like they the visa people that told me like not to come back on I needed a work visa and you need to have success out of your country to get a work visa so I was like I need to do this and this is my only opportunity ever like here you go

and then yeah one day I just like got out of the car and I took a step and my like left ankle like fractured just from like existing yeah I was like okay cool so frustrating yeah it was like the weirdest.

I like don't even and then I went to a meeting the next morning which I don't know how and a session and so weird I don't know how I did it I mean you're

I complain when I have you know a paper cut I worked with an artist that was like yesterday that was like really late because they were like

I'm not feeling well and I literally said to the producer I was like I dare you to text them and be like Sarah has one leg I was like wouldn't that just be so amazing

but I do get Look, everyone's allowed to be sick and be hurt, but I do find it funny when people like, oh my God, like I have to cancel an hour before. Or like you're at the session and they cancel because they're like, don't feel well. I'm like, bro. Yeah.

Okay. Well, okay, so I know I don't want to jump too far ahead, but deciding to amputate your right leg is an incredibly brave and complicated thing to go through. So when in the process was it, you know, this is the best scenario for me? Wow. So I don't know. There was a moment where I think the disease was like getting a lot worse.

But I was getting like a lot more successful. So I was like really busy. And I knew I was hitting like a weird breaking point moment where I was like the wheelchair is coming. Like I could feel it. And then Amanda was like, why don't you go see a surgeon here? Maybe the surgeons here have something else to say. Because the surgeons in Australia just couldn't figure it out. And I went and saw a few surgeons and I saw this guy at Cedars.

And he was like, I really want to help you. Like, this shouldn't be happening to you. You're like a young girl. And I had like a secret surgery. I had surgery in Book the House in Malibu with Noonie. And we wrote songs. like the week after I had surgery. We just sat there and wrote songs

and it didn't work. Like the surgery didn't work at all. And, you know, I don't have my family here, so that was pretty brutal as well. And I was like, cool. Like, I'd expected that kind of. So I was like, that's fine that this is just my life and like what I have to.

I just have to figure out how to deal with this situation. And then I think the surgeon was just like not okay with letting me leave the doctor's office without like something. So he did a ridiculous amount of tests. And I tried a bunch of weird treatments and like weird procedures and drugs and stuff. And then there was a moment where he just looked at me and was like, maybe you should amputate your leg. That's what I would do if I were you. And I was like, um, what? And my friends from Australia, I'm like two best friends from Australia

in town at the time. And they were like at Universal Studios and I was supposed to like meet them at Harry Potter World later, which is like the best thing in the world. And it was like the weirdest morning. And then I went to Amanda's house and just cried my eyes out like on her lap. And I think the first thing she said is like, don't worry, you can be a pirate for Halloween every year. It was like the first thing Amanda said. And then, and I know she was just trying to be like, oh my God, I don't even know how to deal with this or like talk to you and I knew that that was it but I kind of went to Harry Potter World and got a wheelchair because I like couldn't walk around my friends and I'm used to it with them so

we just walked around Harry Potter World and got butter beer and then like got home and I was like guys I need to get I think I need to get my leg amputated and I think they were kind of they'd seen me go through it through high school so they were kind of into it they were like will it stop like please. And I was like, wait, what? How do you feel? Now? Oh, I feel amazing. Really? Yeah. I like, I am a whole different. You were saying that for years you've been,

you were always hoping that you'd be able to say like, I feel better now. I feel better, but it's been this slow decline and but you feel... I feel, I've never felt better in my life. Oh, I love that. I can't believe it. Like, I have to like pinch my... I sometimes like just laugh. Like, I'll sit in the shower and then, like, because I have to sit in the shower, but that's like a whole thing.

And then I'll just like laugh. and then be like, oh my God, I don't feel like I'm dying. Like, I always felt hungover. Just like a constant state of jet lag meets hangover. So, like, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, nauseous all the time, throwing up all the time, in pain all the time. And it was constant. Like, there was, we'd go to the doctor and I would like lie.

And they'd be like, what's your pain? And I'd be like, it's a six. And the doctor would walk out of the room. And Amanda would be like, I know it's higher than a six. You've been limping all morning. And I was like, whatever. And then I think we read the doctor the other week. And they're like, what's your pain?

love I'm like like a one but it's like I don't know a bit and Amanda like almost cried I was like this is so weird I can't believe it I'm like in shock um that's amazing I mean there was a it was cool that you could celebrate the Grammys by walking on yeah you know on the red carpet you know that must have been a huge moment yeah well okay the middle goes number one number one for a long time it gets like way too big way too big just way too big of a song. Like slow up probably like started off on fire and then like

got offensively successful. I think everybody already knows like how big that song is. I need to make a public apology for that. Yeah, exactly. And you know honestly it was if it wasn't for the New York Times doing articles and videos on it and you know all the people

like it's just insane but to go and see you on the red carpet is like the coolest shit in the world. I mean after everything. It felt pretty good. Everyone that definitely thought I was like a make a wish kid though. Like on the way through, like everyone was like staring at me. I was like

and I was like, you all think I'm a make a wish kid. Maybe that's good for the world to learn about like, oh no, I mean this woman is writes hit after hit after hit and it's you know and she's able to deal with that kind of adversity

with grace. I would imagine that. Grace is a strong word, but I'll take it. Okay, well, you know, Grace-ish. Grace-ish. I'll take it. You know, the last thing I want to talk,

because we have a few more things, but... Go ahead. The Marin-Morris song, Girl, just came out. You know, preach for John Legend. By the time this comes out, these things will all be hits, and so this all sound dated.

But girl for Marin Morris came out, and obviously you have a good relationship with her. I'm sure that after middle that you guys at some rapport dealing with that. But this is in a new song written, you know, for the two, let alone the song that you did with Brandy Carlisle on the albums and, you know, comments, crazy.

But girl in particular, I posted it right when it came out because I was like, man, this song is so good. Really? Yeah. How does it feel to work with an artist that you've kind of helped shine a light on in the pop world? Was it nice to write with her and be able to do this from scratch? Yeah, it really was

There was like a weird thing with her I always felt like we were meant to meet Like I know that sounds so cheesy But I'd kind of like The year before Um State, no The year, well, when stay came out

The year before the middle came out I'm doing this correctly I was watching the Grammys And my friend's house And Marin sang And I had no idea who she was And I remember messaging Amanda And being like

Oh who is that girl? Like what the fuck? She was like singing with Alicia Keys I think. And I was like, someone next to Alicia Keys that's like standing on her own. I was like, oh, wow. And then Amanda was like, not your world. It won't happen.

But like, yeah, she's dope. And I was like, okay, thanks. Like, cool. And then, yeah, like a year later, she like cropped up on a demo on the middle and we all heard it and we're like, what the fuck? And Amanda's like, remember last year you like message me about that girl? I thought there was no fucking way on earth that girl would ever work with you. I was like, oh, thank you.

So much faith in me. And then I met her, like, randomly at a Grammy after party. She walked past me and I just, like, awkwardly went up to her. I was like, hey, like, I wrote the middle. Sorry to interrupt you and your people. And she just, like, flipped. She was like, oh, my God, that's crazy. Like, I'm so happy I got to meet you.

I really wanted to meet you, blah, blah, blah. And we sat down and just had, like, a chat, and we got along so well. and then yeah we like we were like can we please write something together and it just felt it was like one of the easiest those sessions without

some of the easiest sessions I've ever done it was just like you know when an artist doesn't even need to tell you what they want to sound like they just sound like that and it's like absurd yeah and she's just like she's a real writer I don't think people

people may not know how much she's a real writer she's a real writer and I respect any artist who can write as well as she can and is willing to take outside songs like middle but then writing her own shit can write yeah can write I mean in the country world everyone

in Nashville knows how good of a writer she is she's crazy but for the rest of the world that woman is a real like a list writer regardless of her singing and her artistry you know she's totally and yeah she's phenomenal it's crazy is it true that you write

that you wrote stay in middle in like 15 minutes each or those not true. It is true. It is true. So, when do I quit? No, I mean, that's crazy. I like talk shit for an hour or two.

Like, we're in the studio for more than 15 minutes. But there's a moment where I just lock in, and then I black out everything. And then I wake up, and I'm like, I wrote a song. And then everyone thinks I was like on Instagram the whole time. Yeah. There's like 15 minutes where they turn around. Is that how you write every song? Yeah.

Co-writing was a very new thing to me because I was like, wait, what? Like, you are not inside my head? That's weird. So that's why, like, co-writing with artists, like, finding someone like Marin, whereas, like, it just mushes or, like, Noonie. It's like, oh, sweet, this is cool. Sure. Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty shocking to hear it.

It's another thing when it actually works that way. I do know the feeling of locking in and getting through a song pretty quickly, at least a first draft. But I don't know that those songs, songs always turn out to be stay in middle. I've got bad songs, don't you? All right. My theory is I'll write it in like 15, 20 minutes, whatever it is, but like it might be bad.

And instead of like hopping on a bad song, I rather just do like 15 minutes of a song. And then like I'll write it's like pull up another track. I'll write a second one. And if that one's better. You guys are very similar in that way. Okay. I'll take it. You should.

Okay. Okay. We're going to go to the next section, which is a five for five section. and just name five things, five people, and you can tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head. Can it be mean things? Sure, well, let's start with Sia. She's incredible.

Hero. Good things. Is it one word answers? Am I ruining it? There really aren't rules. Okay. You won't get like, it won't like stop and delete the interview.

Yeah, so it's one. Let's go with Marie. Marie. Marie, I love Marie. I'm so grateful. She's like my cheerleader. She's like the reason, like, she opened the pearly gates to, a good place.

I don't know why that was like Pearly Gates and then death came into my head and I was like, that's the wrong image. But you know what I mean? She really like opened the door and was like, please flourish. Sure. And go do your thing.

Zed. Anton. I just think of his Skittles machine. He's got a skittal machine in his house. What does that mean? It means you press a button. No, you press a button and you can pick the type of skittles you want

and then the cup goes under it and then the cup goes. into the cup thing, and then you've got a cup of skittles. It's phenomenal. I don't know. I feel like that's not his shining feature, but to me, it's his best feature. Yeah, sure. Taste of Rainbow.

Look at that. Free advertising. Please feel free. I'll put my address on the end of this. Right. Amanda Berman Hill, the greatest publisher of all time. Honestly, she's looking at me. It's weird.

She's the best person I've ever met in my life. I can't use more words to describe how incredible she is. She's really like my hero. I want to be like her. I want to be more like her every day. And I can't imagine how I would possibly be breathing still, like literally, if she hadn't kind of been there. Hmm.

I'm going to cry. You're loud. She's crying, guys. Noonie. She's my sister. I'm like such a, like, everyone I love is like my family. So everyone you're talking about, I'm like, I love them and it sounds really. You should.

I mean, I mean. But my people are my people, you know. Yeah. Noonie's like my sister. She's so funny. She like gives me sass. Because we both had our biggest hit together, like our first big fat bunkers hit. And she'd been like doing some cool shit.

And I hadn't. That was my first thing. And she was around for a minute doing like Charlie X-X and Mo and all this cool and like a VG and stuff. But we still both had our first big song together. So I was just stressed out of my mind. And she'd be like, fuck it. Let's go on a holiday. Like she was that for me.

That was the sister that was like, calm the fuck down. You're fucking amazing. Fuck it. Let's just like go get facials or like something like that. Like she's that for me. She literally does that. She'll be like, fuck them, Sarah. Like, fuck everyone.

I'm like, I love you. Thank you. Is there any advice you have for young writers or people in the music business? Oh, there's so many things. One thing that I've realized is if you want it, you'll get it. Nice. So, like, if you want to be a songwriter, like, there are songwriters that are called songwriters that can't write a song.

So if they can do it, like, if you can physically write a song, you're already one step up, you know what I mean? So I think if you want it, you can get it. It is there. Like, I had no, like, why the fuck am I here? You know what I mean? But, like, I worked my ass off. But also, I think it's all about people.

Like, I, it is safe to say sticking around the right people. Like, I've said no to meeting or working with a lot of people that may have traction in that moment or maybe like a big deal or like a tyrant like whatever it might be and it just isn't my cup of tea and instead of just like pandering to the thing you're supposed to pander to I think just finding good people

not caring if they've blown up or not yet everyone's a nobody before there are somebody as well so I think like finding your people whether it's other songwriters, artists, producers, publishers, managers, A&S, whatever it's like extremely important and maybe like the most important thing. I've never done this before by Amanda.

Do you have anything you'd like to add? You need a microphone? Here. For upcoming songwriters? I don't know. Sure. Or just talk about me. What do you think about me?

Oh my God, I'm so unprepared. This feels so good, you guys. Hi, I'm Amanda. Oh, I don't know. I think what Sarah said for upcoming songwriters is good. I think, you know, One of the things that we talk about in addition to kind of what she said is just like having a high moral compass and a moral ground. And I think that if you treat people kindly and fairly, that that will often set you in the right direction as well.

Quality. That is quality. That is quality, mamager info right there. Yeah, momager. You know, so thank you for doing this. Thank you for having me. This is really early. Usually it's, you know, it's hard to interview most people who are young

because usually they haven't gone through life stuff. Or they've gone through something where they, you know, they've never really had the adversity yet to understand the scope of what they're achieving. And, you know, you've done so much, so fast. but you're also really important to the music business more than you realize yet. I mean, maybe now you're getting it a little more because you're walking down red carpets at the Grammys and shining a light on quite literally on physically what you've gone through.

Many minorities. But you're like, yeah. I mean, this is really just the beginning for you. And I wanted people to meet you now because you're very smart and you're savvy and you're, and that. That's important because we need people to recognize how strong the humans are that are songwriters, not just the fact that we're writing songs all day, but these are really strong-willed humans who are working specifically to make you,

the listener, a happier person or give you an opportunity to be, entertained and they're doing it because they love the craft and they love the art but it's not without struggle and so uh i appreciate you thanks for being on we'll have to do this again in like five years when uh we'll roll when i'm bitter and like have no success yeah or that yeah like back in the day and i wrote the middle yeah exactly that's what i want to be like grandkids i wrote the middle yeah yeah it'll like play in the house when we'll be come in. That's like the doughbell. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, yeah.

It'll happen for you. And I hope the next one is that us talking about how the songs we just talked about were actually failures. But I don't think so. Yeah. It's too late. I think they're amazing. I don't know. It was safe.

Congratulations. Thank you. All right. Let's do it. Thanks for listening to this episode of Anne the Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out

our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Goldman.