And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 70: James Bay

Episode Date: September 30, 2019

This Grammy-nominated, multi-platinum artist and songwriter is the definition of a modern-day rock star. With the recent release of his EP ‘Oh My Messy Mind’ which featured the infectious duet “Peer Pressure” featuring Julia Michaels, and the heart-wrenching ballad “Bad,” he continues to highlight his songwriting and musical prowess. This past year he finished his sold-out US heading tour and this summer he opened for Ed Sheeran on his overseas European arena tour. In 2018, after the release of his sophomore album ‘Electric Light,’ he won the world over again with its singles “Wild Love,” “Pink Lemonade” and “Us.” Following the release of his debut album ‘Chaos And The Calm,’ featuring the singles, “Hold Back The River” and “Let It Go” he was nominated for Best Rock Album, Best Rock Song, and Best New Artist at the 2016 Grammy Awards. In the UK, the record became the “Biggest New Artist Album Release” that year and has sold nearly 5 million albums and generated 3.5 billion streams worldwide. Receiving the BRIT’s Critics Choice award in 2015, this songwriter has also gone on to win Best Male Solo Artist at the BRITS, International Newcomer at the ECHO Awards, Best New Act & Best Solo Artist at the Q Awards, and Most Performed Work for “Hold Back The River” at the Ivor Novello Awards. On the other side of the globe, he has also received a nod for “Best International Artist” at the ARIA Awards in Australia. And The Writer Is…James Bay!This episode is sponsored by Bandzoogle. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 5 of And the Writer is with your host, Ross Golan. Before I get my spiel, I want to acknowledge the music army that listens to this podcast every week. Since starting this, the And The Writer is community has literally changed the history of the music business by helping pass the music modernization act, gotten songwriters added to album of the year for the Grammys, and still is advocating for positive changes for our industry. industry on a daily basis. So thank you and congrats. Now, as you know, I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, Big Deal Music Publishing, and

mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. Today's podcast is brought to you by our friends at Banzugal. Built for musicians by musicians, you can use Banzugel's tools to easily design a way website in EPK, sell your music, merge directly to your fans, and it's commission-free.

Banzugal also recently added a crowdfunding feature, which lets you crowdfund your next project, commission-free. So think about it. Your fans want to help fund your album. You don't need a record deal anymore. You can just use Banzugal. So go to banzugal.com, try free for 30 days. Be sure to use a promo code ATWI, and you'll get 15% off your first year of any subscription. That's ATWI at Banzula.com or 15% off of any subscription. Songwriters, think about your favorite hit song and what makes it in earworm. You could be the writer behind the next song and that goes viral. Enter the 20th annual NSA song contest presented by Martin Guitar's and Strings and CMT.

You could win several prizes, including the one-on-one mentoring session with El King, myself, and fellow in the writer is producer Joe London. The lyric only winner will score $2,000 cash and mentoring session with award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas, as well as other coveted prizes. Send in your best songs now through October 31st at NSAI.cum.com. Welcome to And The Writer is, I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's three-time Grammy Award nominated artist and multi-platinum songwriter launched his career with a number one UK debut. album and went on to win an aria, a Brit, and Ivor Novello for that very same work. His most recent release has gained over two billion collective streams, and now he sells out shows all over the

world from Glass and Berry to Saturday Night Live. His newest single peer pressure features our good friend, Julia Michaels, and he's famously in All Around Good Chap, all the way from the small town of Hitchin, England, this writer is the only guest we've ever had that my wife fancies more than me. And the writer is James Bay. I feel like I need to sort of walk out into a sports field after that. That was into like a baseball stadium. That was amazing. If people saw the size of this room after that kind of intro, they'd be so sad.

Oh, no, no, it's like we're doing this in the middle of Wembley, right in the middle. Yeah, in humble Wembley, we are sat in a tent, so it sounds better. We're in a tent on the field. Right in the middle of the pitch. Is that what it's called? Was that right? You've nailed it. I'm killing it.

All right, so let's start in Hitchin. Is that how you pronounce it? Hitchin, yes indeed. Okay. How big is Hitchin? Where is Hitchin? 30,000 people. And it's about an hour north outside of London.

Okay. And it's really, with all love and respect, to it, it's very kind of mundane, safe. It was a really sort of safe, chill place to grow up as a kid. I suppose the lucky thing for a kid growing up in Hitchin is, you know,

I was closer to London than a lot of the rest of the country. Like it's like a 30 minute train ride and you're in, like in the center of London and London's, there's a lot of stuff going on there, obviously. So it was great. It was a very chill place to be. You have parents? I have parents.

Did they do music? No. But like lots and lots of parents, they are extremely passionate about music. And it was kind of straight down the line. Like on the right side, my dad was obsessed with rock and roll, everything that was kind of older rock and roll from Chuck Berry through the stones, and Bruce Springsteen, kind of in Beyond. And my mom was all about soul music.

And she loved Stacks and Motown music and all those great artists. And so that music kind of resonated. throughout the house a fair bit and me and I have a brother as well we got to really soak that up and fall in love with it from a pretty young age is your brother a musician too he is my brother's musician he's only 18 months older than me so he grew up very close and we were kind of obsessed with all the same things at all the same times we were big into sports when we were kids and and we were also always big into movies and music and um I think when you when you're close like that if you have any interest in something you have this in kind of immediate support and interest for

from a second person. And something about that is fantastic. I've got to say, just in my experience, if I'm curious about music or playing guitar or performing, he was too and was doing his own version of it right next to me and we were collaborating in one way or another from... Were you competitive? Very early age.

I personally, yes, I'm very competitive. My brother, slightly less so. But then again, we're brothers. So that's a whole different competition compared to the competition you might feel with the rest of the world. So I think he kind of is. How so? I never had a brother.

I had a sister. So we were competitive but not really. Well, I don't know. We just were into all the same things and we were competitive, but if I'm honest with you, so that's where the competition comes from, the fact that we're into all the same things and want to be better than each other at them.

But as far as music goes, we always loved bands. We loved Mick and Keith, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards being this like team and we were big into the Black Crows and the Robinson brothers were this great team this like famous musical team and Lennon and McCartney and all of that stuff.

So did you guys write a lot together? We did, yeah. When we were younger we wrote a lot together. I played the guitar and he didn't kind of bother with an instrument because he was always, he naturally gravitated towards being the front man he was obsessed with Mick Jagger and Rod Stewart and Chris Robinson and all those guys. and lots of the soul, people like James Brown,

lots of the soul performers as well, he loved all of that and gravitated towards being front and center, and because he didn't have an instrument, you even think, as kids, you think about the way it lays out on a stage, well, I'll be the guitar guy kind of at the side because there'll be like a bass person who's at the other side, and so Alex would go in the middle

and sing the songs. But I guess I'd come up with the music, and we'd both kind of direct that, and he'd more often come up with the lyrics. I came up with some lyrics, but... Why aren't you in a band? Why aren't you in the Black Crows? Why are you in your version of like...

Well, that's a great question because I did that for years with my brother and other friends. What was that called? Oh, we had... At one point, we were the Jet Kings. Oh, nice. That was actually...

We were, which is as lame as that sounds, it was named after our guitar players, Ibanez Jet King 2, his electric guitar. So we just took that. We were Roadrunner. How old were you guys when you guys started doing that?

We started doing all that when we were 14. I was about 14 when I played my first show. And we'd been playing me and my brother Were you doing covers or originals? We were actually doing more originals than covers. How old were you when you started writing? Probably the same age, 13, 14. I remember one of the first songs that we wrote as a band.

What is it? It was called It's Raining. How does it go? Well, it just was all about It's raining. And that's a real shame because I wanted to go outside and play. It was genuinely like that childish. Yeah.

But like, I don't know, that was what was, that was what gave us the blues, you know? Yeah, right. If you release that now, people have so many metaphors attached to it. You know, they'll be like, yeah, it is raining outside. And I do want to go outside and it's just too bad. Because it's depressing outside. That's it.

I need to stay safe. That's it. You know? That's the message. Maybe we were trying to convey or maybe we were just trying to have anything to write about. Was it good? It was okay. We played it at school and everybody thought it was really good

and they didn't think it was ours. No, I mean, that's a huge... That was a nice sign in a way. But I guess why am I not in a band now? Because I was the one in the bands that we were in and in our little town who kind of... My attention span changed and moved forward and moved on quicker than everybody else in the band. We were one version of a band, and then I was inspired by some other music,

so I wanted to change it up a bit. and all the other guys in the band were kind of quite happy trying to just sound like the Rolling Stones or just sound like Kings of Leon. And I'd want to move it on and move it on. And then the first thing I did, it was still a band, but that was me was, I just called it the James Bay Trio. And it was just me and a bass player and a drummer

and it was a little bit more kind of musical and less about the songs. And then I moved on again from that. And I would constantly just sort of change it up. Were these side projects to, what do you call it, Roadrunner? No, no. Were these considered side projects? or were you like, you know what guys?

I'm out and do the next thing. I'm out. Yeah, it was more that. It was more that. The trio thing. Did you get support for that? Or was there like, oh, yo, you can't leave. You're my brother.

It was, no, my brother was actually great about it, really. Because strangely, I started to sort of move things on and then move into doing my own thing, about five years after we'd started being a band. And it inspired him to do the same thing. Oh, cool. So he found that quite exciting, and we were able to do that. We were always, he and I were the creative force,

and whatever was going on. And when we kind of went in our little separate ways, we were both as inspired to do that thing. And then I went from even being in my little trio with a different bass player and drummer to just going all the way down to just me in an acoustic guitar. It was funny as I started my kind of musical life with more people around me,

and it got smaller and less and smaller and less. And then it started again from me in acoustic guitar, and then I finally left hitching, and I wandered off into the world and just with acoustic guitar and start doing it like that. do you miss being in a band or do you enjoy the vulnerability of being solo? I do enjoy the vulnerability of being solo.

And I get a little bit of the best of both worlds because I love playing and touring with a band behind me and we get to play really loud and really fast and it gets to feel a bit like Kings of Leon or the Stones or whatever or Springsteen. It gets to feel a bit like that when I want it to. And then when I want it to, I get to kind of strip it all down

and go really kind of simple and do it like that. How old were you when he left your, you know, hitching? I was 19. So you graduated high school. I didn't. I didn't. Well, high school, yeah, I finished high school, and then I went to university, you guys called University College?

Yeah. Right. I went and did that, and I did about 18 months of that, and I was supposed to do three years, but I, yeah. And that was the British and Irish Modern Music Institute. I guess that's what they call it now. It's gone through a few names It was just the British Institute of Modern Music back then

I don't think they had the Irish part yet There was just the Brighton Yeah it was Well no back then it was the Brighton Institute of Modern Music So it was in Brighton? Yeah yeah it was just out Have you been? I have I went and it was

You know It was really cold I went you know You go on a beach town And I was pretty excited to go And it was Covered in stones Freezing

It was terrible It was you've ever seen in your life. It's, it's... Coming from California. Yeah, you know, I like New Jersey, but there are times of the year where if you went to Asbury Park and you're, you know, you walk or you walk on the boardwalk where you'd be miserable too.

You know, this is freezing. I promise you. I promise you there are three days in every year when Brighton Beach is phenomenal. Yeah. And that's it. Maybe two, like maybe three days every other year. I caught one of the 362 days. Yeah, that's a shame.

Sorry about that. So you went there and... You just said, this isn't for me. I'm going to get out of here? I went there and I think at best and I learned all sorts of things there. Like what? I learned a lot of like real life stuff.

Well, because it was like a, there was like classrooms and you had like assignments and that was fine. But I was looking for a way into what I thought was the real kind of music industry and music world. So looking back, it was a great stepping stone. It kind of taught me that you can spend as much time as you like in a place like that.

but the building that housed those classrooms was in the middle of a city that was full of bars and clubs and places to play. And the college was not going to get me into those bars and clubs even though I was in the college in that city and all that. I had to do that myself. So being there taught me that it's fine to be there

and have that going on. But whatever happens, you have to make some stuff happen for yourself. wherever you might be at and whoever you might have around you, it's about your own kind of get up and go. It's about using that. Somehow people don't realize how entrepreneurial being a musician is. And when you get this,

there's a cliche about musicians where they say songwriters are struggling musicians. No, no, no, all people are struggling. Absolutely. And if you tried to start any business, at any age, you'd be struggling. And this is a multi-billion dollar industry. So if it's hard to start your career in this, it's because it's hard to start a career in any industry.

Absolutely. I think people just don't recognize that you actually have to go and do it and that there's not this, it's not a talent search. The funny thing is, you're absolutely right. I realized being down in Brighton that I was, I thought I was arriving with like hundreds of like-minded people and everybody loved music. Don't get me wrong.

Everybody there loved music. But everybody's also got a different agenda and I found out being around those people and being in that place that mine was what you were talking about. It was that. And it's like I said, that sense of that get up and go sense of, I have to do this for myself. And this sounds corny as well,

but I have to believe in myself more than any of these people might. as friendly as they are or not. I was out of my parents' house and in the real world a little more so and people will be with you and against you and in all of that you just got to you've got to love it enough and believe that you're great

and that you're going to change some people's minds and move some people. My assumption is your parents were supportive throughout this process or you wouldn't be going to school. That's very true. Yeah, yeah. The best thing, I'll say the best thing about how my parents were with mine my desire to be musical

is that they didn't ever push me so hard like oh okay if you want to be a musician well you got to come on you've got to be rehearsing like all the time what are you doing you're not rehearsed they didn't do that they weren't that extreme and they didn't they didn't say don't be ridiculous you can't have a life in music that's that's silly they just sort of sat right in the middle there

and and let me love it and they like they liked to come to shows and sort of see that thing and watch their kids just enjoy being wild on stage and stuff. When did you record first? I think I was probably, well, what version of recording? Because we bought me and my brother Alex and my oldest friend Tom, who is still my bass player in my band. Now, like today, the three of us chipped in together for an eight track recorder, like digital little box thing. It was a Zoom MRS8, which my brother still has. So we started, messing around with that from like 13 or 14 years old and making terrible recordings. We did that for years and then we got some guy in town in Hitchin said he had a studio.

We played around town all the time. We used to play a lot of our own material and he was kind of inspired to invite us to his studio to record five or six of our songs and that was when I was about 15 or 16 years old. So we went and did that. Not really, didn't have a clue what we were doing, tried to play live all in one take and do loads of takes. And it was terrible, but I still love it to this day because it's, you know, one of my first day. Have you ever released it? No way. Really? No, it's not that. It's not that kind of thing. But I mean, I am proud of it though. And between us friends, we still have those recordings and I haven't listed for a long time. But yeah, that was the first time. We put something together. I'm going to have to hear that when this is done.

I have to find it. It's in your phone and you know it. You don't have to have. have to find it. You have a playlist that says like my early songs or some... I feel like I should now. Yeah, for sure. There's a text or two I can send, I can get it in an instant. Yeah, exactly. Well, considering Tom's your bass player, my assumption is that...

No, I'm sure he can do the same, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, how do you get from Brighton to you know, Republic? Right. There's a gap from, I'm not going to stay in this school for a second

year to I'm going to sign with the biggest record company right yeah there's a few important moments in that I so the thing about these music colleges which is wonderful is that they are in touch with or there are managers out in this world and a and R scouts that are they are they kind of have their finger on the pulse as much as possible so they're in touch with these colleges and they're saying all the time is there anything going on at the college they get in touch with the college and they say anybody we should come and see and Paul who sat with us here and Ryan who managed me together

they were just staying in touch with all these different colleges and Ryan said to the folks down in Brighton anybody we should come and check out and they sent my MySpace page to Paul and Ryan yeah we're going back to the 8th

no we're going back though we're going back far not quite the 80s but we're going back far to where MySpace is still a thing when the other town was your friend wasn't that Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there was one original song of mine on there.

What was it? It was called Glow. Okay. Probably find you that later. Oh, there you go. And the next night there was like a, not quite annual. They did these like biannual shows, the college where like 20, you had to audition for these shows, like four or five hundred students would audition to get one of the 20 spots to perform.

on these nights and I'd been lucky enough in previous ones to play I think three or four times beforehand I played at these things and there was one coming up that I hadn't audition for I confess at this point this is I don't know if anybody's like knew this I didn't I didn't audition but the folks at the college are very smart and kind and Paul and Ryan had said they wanted to come down and see me play is there anywhere that was there anywhere I'd be playing so they put me on the the people at the college put me on at this night to to play one of my own songs and Paul and Ryan came down and sat and watched it and I guess it went okay

the song was not very good it was a solid two out of ten in my opinion but the song? Yeah but the performance was obviously I hope so I guess so Paul's smiling so we're gonna have to hope it was it was a good one but I did that

and then me and Paul and Ryan went off to a bar and they just sort of said look we think you're great and we love what you're doing and we obviously respect that you're at this college and you can stick with that if you want, but they kind of wanted to put like an arm around my shoulder and, um, kind of guide me along and help me out in any way that they could and very much in a managerial way. And, and so it all started. I think as soon as they said that, I was like,

okay, forget this college. I want to follow these guys into like the real music world, um, with all respect to the college. And, uh, we went from there and I spent a couple of years writing and really working on writing and getting better at writing and sort of learning how to, do all about that. How were you getting better at writing? I was trying co-writing. Actually, one of the things that really excited me about Paul and Ryan coming down is that I knew from a little bit of conversation that they'd had a lot

of contact with co-writers, like professional songwriters, and they worked with other artists of theirs with a lot of these songwriters. And I'd read hundreds and millions of sleeve notes where it might say, you know, it might list one of my favorite songs by James Morrison, but it's written by James Morrison, Martin Brammer, and like different writers, you know, and I was like,

who are these guys? And they would tell me all about that. and so they introduced me to those types of people who are some of those people? Well, funnily enough, this dude Martin Brammer is a brilliant writer in the UK they introduced me to a guy who's still one of my great friends in music called John Green

who... John's great. John is it? You know John? Yeah. Oh, what a dream. He's here right now this week. He's in LA.

I'm seeing him tonight for dinner. He's one of my closest and greatest collaborators and friends and a guy called Jamie Hartman who works out of L.A. now he's brilliant dude he actually with those guys with all the people I listed I wrote some of the first well the first songs that went on my first album and I that that was we're going back to 2011 2012 and then and I collected a few songs and I must have written hundreds of songs

and managed to get three or four good ones because that's you know that's what it is like we write lots of songs and maybe one of them every month or a few months is like a really good one I guess that changes as you get better sure at writing but back then that was what it was. Did you have that gauge? Did you know it wasn't good enough? I was learning that. Well, I was really learning that. And there's one of the priceless things about having great managers is quickly working out, them quickly working out a way to be honest with you.

And you being kind of big enough and I suppose grown up enough to take that and learn from it and move forward. If that can't work, there's a lot of things that can't work. It's a really important thing. Were you always good at taking me? criticism? I like to think so, but I tell you what, I like to think so because more than anything I wanted to get ahead and, I'm going to say succeed, it's a weird word to use, but more than anything, I wanted songs that more and more people wanted to hear and loved. And that means you've got to learn how to take criticism. Because I can write you a song in a day, on my own even, because there's

all sorts of weird, strange opinions on. on co-writing. But it's not nine out of ten times. It could be better if I've either worked for longer on it or worked with other people on it. That's all right. That's collaboration. Great. Yeah, it's a different...

It's easy to write songs, it's hard to write hits. That's it. That is it. And I think... And Paul and Ryan were probably telling me that saying that exact thing. With their own experience, they were saying that exact thing even back then, what, eight or nine years ago. And that was a priceless...

like mindset to be around for me. So by the end of 2012, I had a handful of songs. And this is a fun and funny story to tell. You'll understand the more inner workings of this story, as with a lot of people listening, but there'll be a lot of people who don't as well. By the end of 2012, there started to be a little bit of talk and a little bit of buzz just within the industry about me and my songs so we did a couple of shows that in london that all the major record labels came down to the nature of the beast is this you'll a lot of people will do those shows and one out of ten times there'll be this crazy frenzy of all the labels going we've got to sign that person the rest of the time like it was for me they all come down they all walk away and they're not at fuss because

there's lots of great music out there and i don't know they're looking in lots of different directions and there was somebody at one of these... Also, the people who are at the first shows are not really the people who can see a show and then sign that artist. That's absolutely right. So all those people at all of those shows all have to like it, enough that when your name's brought up

at the meeting, enough people there say, no, no, no, no, don't skip this one yet. And for a brand new unknown artist, that's a very hard, like, thing to achieve for those people, let alone the artist. for those people. From your perspective, one of the hard things

when you're developing an artist is getting the A-list writers to even listen to it in the same way getting the A-list, A&R people to listen to it. Absolutely. How do you get the John Green and Jamie Hartman? These are people who are sought after

by artists who already have a deal. Yeah. How do those people get inspired enough to work on a project that isn't signed. A lot of people will hit us up and say how do we get in the room with whoever? I'll be honest.

Well, you know, it happens when it happens. I think this will resonate with Paul and my managers, Paul and Ryan and everybody else. Paul's here, by the way. He's way up in the stands because we're in Wembley. But he's got us on the big screen. Yeah, he's got, right. He can see us and he can hear us through the PA.

We'll wave to him. From my perspective, and I think Paul will agree, he needs this like the manager needs this from the artist and they obviously need to be able to do it themselves so the question was how does anybody

get in a room with such great writers it goes all the way back to learn to take criticism and work harder to be better at writing songs and write great ones because the only real thing that's going to get you into those rooms I think is great songs in the first place

and it's it's always hard it's hard when you're not writing with that many people and maybe you're more on your own. And it's still hard to write, like we said earlier, a great song or a hit, no matter who you're writing with. So there's no sort of surefire answer or equation. But I think in all of it, as long as you're working hard to do interesting and great stuff, sooner or later that will get picked up by any or maybe all of the writers out there and people will start to cotton onto it and be interested. and eventually you can't write with everybody all at once.

It will come as long as you work hard, or it should do. I suppose we can't say that it will because there's no surefire anything in this world and in this work. But I can say that much. Is that an answer? Yeah, that's a good answer. Okay, so... I've got to tell you in a minute how it gets all the way to Republic as well. I kind of left it at all these labels didn't like me.

I don't want to leave it there, because there's loads of great people at those labels. Don't get me wrong. Loads of brilliant opinions. Do you think they didn't like you? or do you think they liked you and were like, wow, I'm a scout. You know, there's only so much I can do. It could be that. It could be that.

And it could also, Paul's a green big time. It could be, I just saw him like miles away, like nod his head. So he waved from the back of the stadium. It could be that. It could also be that those people, this is like the nature of the beast. A lot of those people could assign something recently that's similar to what doing like because in those early days things can seem more similar and because there's so much growing that any artist is yet to do and growing to become more unique in this and that anyway I did

those shows some people were kind of into it and the majority didn't come back with much that's okay if I believe in myself which I have to and I do and I did you got to keep going anyway because I'm doing this for the love of doing it as well as wanting to essentially impress all sorts of people Songwriters, you could be the Grand Prize winner and score up to $5,000 in cash, one of 12 Martin guitars, as well as a mentoring session with El King, Joe London, or myself. The lyric winner will win an opportunity to be mentored by award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas as well as other coveted prizes. Enter the 20th annual NSAI Song Contest presented by Martin Guitar Strings and CMT,

now through October 31st at NSAI.c.c.com. NSAI, the National Songs Association, International is one of the biggest supporters of songwriters and played a major role in helping pass the Modernization Act, a historical piece of legislation that allows you to have a future as a songwriter. This is your opportunity to experience industry access, one-on-one mentorship with hit songwriters and fun your creative passions. Song and lyric-only categories are open now for submissions. We can't wait to hear your songs. Today's podcast is brought to you by the musician website platform, Ban Zougal.

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So go to Banzoogle.com and try free for 30 days and use the promo code ATWI to get 15% off the first year of any subscription. That's Banzo-com promo code ATWI to build your website for your music. Plus in 2012, this is like the height of probably teenage dream. and stuff like that. You know, like the music that you're doing isn't what everyone else is doing. So not only do people have to like it, they have to like it, and then they have to think.

Yeah, and see if they can fit in. And that's really hard to get people who are part of a machine to think that, well, because this is unique, that's an advantage rather than because it's unique, it's scary. That's going to be 95% of the opinions. And the other thing, that's absolutely right.

The other thing I was battling against, and anybody in my position at that time would have been battling against, is it was a real hot moment for, like, YouTube sensations sing a songwriters, by which I mean, like, sing a songwriter writes a song, or even maybe covers a song,

puts it on YouTube, and overnight, 500,000 plays. Overnight, 2 million views or plays. It was a time for that. So I think if, it really felt like it was a, a pretty strong time for that. So a lot of those people come into those shows, those A&Rs or whatever, they wanted to know if I had those kind of stats.

And I did not. I did not. I was just going off trying to have a real connection with people and songs and, you know, in a moment live. So I did two of these shows and they were okay and, you know, not an enormous amount came from them at least initially.

And I went away. And I thought, what else can I be doing? Because I do just want to perform and I want to write and I want to do all of this but I want to be performing as well and I'd already at this point had two or three years of carting myself around not the country but the sort of local area

local to Brighton or local to London or even Hitchin those three places are about two hours from each other so it's not too far and so I was writing a lot in London at the time lots of studios in London writing with the likes of John and Jamie and people like that and in the evening because it was an expensive train ticket

if I'm honest with you. Getting into London. It's like 50 bucks to get from Brighton, right? Nuts. So I was trying to... Quid. There you go. Nailed it. But you know, it all works.

I was trying to get as much from my train ticket as I could. So I was staying in London in the evening for a few extra hours after I finished writing to find an open mic night if there was an open mic night anywhere. And in London there's a load. And I went to this place called the Abbey Tavon in Kentish Town, which is kind of can.

Camden sort of area. And it was, it's just a pub, you know, that a lot of open mic nights happen in pubs. But it was a kind of a nice, like, stage in the window. It sort of felt like a bit of a vibe. And I got a slot and I went up at about, I don't know, 8, 30, 9 o'clock to like a room full of about 12 people. It probably could have held 100 people, but it probably had about 12 people in it because that's how it goes. It was like a Tuesday night. And I played a few songs. And during the first song, a guy walked in with a massive camera, like not a digital camera, the little thing. It was like a big, like, I make movies on this camera, camera. On his, like, kind of, it was under his arm, but I suppose he would have worn it on his

shoulder for work. And he sat down, he got himself a drink and he sat down. And in the second song, just as I was starting up the second song, he got the camera up on his shoulder and he started rolling, saw the little red light. And he filmed that and he filmed the last song as well. And I got off the stage after my little three song set. And he came over and he said, I thought that was great, man. That was really cool. And I said, thanks, man. I think I saw you filming. I think I saw him. It was a massive camera. And there were 12 people. Yeah, people kind of couldn't see the camera. And he said, yeah, I said, it's very big.

I said, what's the story with this enormous camera? How come? He said, no, I know it looks weird. I'm actually, I'm a cameraman. It's my job and this is my tool for work. But he said, I'll edit this thing. I'll sort of, you know, get it into shape and I'll put it on YouTube and I'll like send you the link. I said, thanks. And we kind of carried on with our lives. A few weeks went by and I found the link he sent it to me and I clicked on it and it had been weeks at this point

I thought well fingers crossed and it had about 23 plays perfect huge number you know the big exciting 23 plays but around that same time we got a call

from Republic Records in America they had found this video how I think someone asked me this recently because I couldn't really remember initially but if I'm to guess it would be that even then YouTube videos had like tags like songwriter acoustic guitar and I'd imagine there are people at major record labels who like search those things and one leads to another leads to another you know they sort of pop up

so they found it one way or another it might have been like that and they called us and they said we really love this video and we love the song and we'd love to hear more but we'd like to hear it live we'd like to fly you to New York and meet you and maybe play us some more songs which was just that that in itself really kind of blew my mind and talking about this in hindsight like talking about it remembering it all sounds like such a sort of Hollywood story it sounds very kind of and then you know he went around the world and all this stuff but even at that moment it was a terrifying experience going you know getting on a plane and flying to New York I had been to New York one time with my family on vacation

it was all right. And, you know, being a tourist in a big, busy city is a challenge in itself. It was, you know, New York's amazing. But like, so, but to be flown back there by this label was brilliant and wonderful and absolutely terrifying because I knew at this point that a lot of the major labels in the UK weren't that fuss. And I felt like a little bit more hung on it because I knew I wanted to get signed. And I wanted to sort of go through the next steps and really try and make a life.

a proper record one day. But I went and I played and there was a couple labels. There were a couple labels in the UK that were interested and there was a little juggle eventually because I'd met them and I'd met Republic. But the guys at Republic were brilliant. They understood it all. Yeah and to set the stage of what this looks like for people who don't know this, you know, to go and play for 12 people, which a lot of people who listen to this know what that's like.

Sure. Whether they're the biggest artist in the world or not, they played in the world. They played in front of 12 people at one point, or less, or fewer, I mean. And you show up to New York after years of recording and playing, and it's Republic. When you go to this building, it's right off of Times Square. You know, it's about a few blocks away. You go up these elevators, you have to go, you check in, you go through these, you know, whatever you call those spinning gates thing.

Yeah, yeah, all of that. Yeah. you go upstairs and Republic's a really communal looking room. A lot of labels, you know, you don't know who's working next door. But Republic is a

lot of people who can look at each other. So you walk in and immediately you can see all the different offices that have windows on one side and then you see a pool of people who are working at the label that are all able to look at you walk through the elevators. And look at each other as well. at each other.

All the making eyes. So it's a really, it's a, you know, I just want people to see what, what that looks like for somebody who's just gotten off a plane. Yeah. Having played mostly in small clubs.

You know, you know, in London, all the labels are really close to each other. In New York, some of them are close to each other. But when you're in that environment, it feels like being in a record label in Manhattan.

Yeah. And that's it makes a, some sense. So I think when you walk in through those doors or through that elevator, there's probably some even more expectations that, oh man, this is really real, not to mention that, you know, the artists that are coming out from Republic during the 2010s are the biggest in the world. Massive. So it's not like, you know, you have Taylor and you have, you know, now Ariana. But, you know, Nikki Minaj, you know, Nikki Minaj, you. you have the weekend and Drake and all.

I mean, it's just so many big artists. So I can imagine that being a really pressureful moment. It really, really was. And also exciting. Right. You know, like, as I remember it. Yeah, no, you, that's perfectly accurate, all of that. And as I remember it, I'm thinking, well, what was going through my mind?

And there was one thing, there was two things going through my mind. One had to go through my mind. And that was, I still believe in myself. I still believe that these people want me here. to see if they think I'm as good as they think I am. But I don't know, this might sound big-headed. But you have to have a little bit of this. You have to have some ego.

You have to have some belief that you're good. Do you get nervous when you play? That's a, I get very excited. I don't feel like it's nerves. There's a bit of nerves, don't get me wrong, but that isn't the overwhelming feeling. There's an adrenaline that, like, there's people out there who want to be here

and it's all going to be incredible. it's going to be as incredible as I can make it. Again, like, and I sound like a real Brit here because we're very modest, we're particularly kind of, you know, like we're very self-deprecating, but we can be. But so that's why I'm, I don't know, trying to okay all of this, but you have to believe in yourself. And so I don't get too nervous.

So the two things that were going through my head were, I believe in myself, I can see all these people in this record label, making all the eyes and whether they're out of excitement or not, I got to deliver this. And the other thing was, you know, I was coming in with my acoustic guitar under my arm, inspired by Rayla Montaigne and Adele and, you know, that very organic,

less kind of shiny pop-leaning music. And I was in the house of Taylor Swift and Drake and Nicky Minaj and, you know, very kind of punchy, powerful pop. And I really wanted to be there. And I still love it. I've got to be honest with you, the most exciting thing for me about signing to Republic

is that they are this like super power monster label and they want me to do my thing in their house so that they can kind of be a part of it and that the adrenaline that that gave me the excitement that that gave me kind of fueled me as well I wanted to be unique in that environment so you obviously signed a republic

and I signed to Republic so it worked out so then when you have you do this record deal biggest label in the world you have some songs at this point how much of chaos and the calm

was written by the time you were signed when I signed the deal I hadn't written let it go and I hadn't written Hold Back the River okay and those two songs off Chaos and the Calm really kind of carried that album which I'm very proud to say but the interesting and exciting and I guess I'm not even being biased the wonderful thing about Republic is they heard

move together and when we were on fire those songs I wrote with Jamie Hartman and John Green and my new song at that time that I'd just written as a song called Get Out What You Can which was kind of a very Bruce Springsteen sort of vibe and I stood and played it for the metal acoustic guitar

it was like a Bruce Springsteen meets Kings of Leon kind of vibe that is the way I recorded that song and we produced that song but I kind of I was just doing it with my acoustic guitar just like as on honestly as I possibly could. And I remember Avery and Monty and the rest of the label just really, it's nice to say that they were like, they were moved by the experience. It did matter what

songs I had. And I was in there because they wanted to hear like those songs. And they wanted to hear some potential, I guess. But they have always given me a lot of room to grow. How long did it take you to write those songs after let it go and hold back there uh let it go those are huge records thanks man let it let it go came in in in um i signed in february 2013 i think it was i like to try and remember these dates but i can't yeah that'd be weird nobody usually does and uh i signed in february and i wrote um let it go like april or may and i wrote hold back the river after i had spent the first two

weeks making chaos in the calm. I started making chaos and the calm in Nashville with Shakir King for two weeks and I went home at the end of October and then in November I did a load of touring in the UK and I opened up for a band called Kodeline and then at the end of that tour the night after that I had a headline show my first headline show in a in the basement of a pub to about 100 people and yeah I kind of built myself up to that night and I was also really excited to like celebrate this year that I'd had with all the people who came to that show it was like my family and friends like four new fans and uh and I was going to celebrate this night it was going to be wonderful and it all came and went and I went home and the next day I had to fly off and go somewhere

else and I didn't get to see any of my friends and family properly and a whole back the river ended up being a lot about that about the kind of whirlwind experience being wonderful but also kind of difficult because you don't get to be present and connected with all your most important people Sure. But yeah, so I wrote that the next day, and then I went back in December to do some more recording. Yeah, in Nashville, making Kales and the Calm, and I went back with the Holy Bouther River.

Paul Berry, your co-writer? Yeah, I'll let it go, yeah. I'll let it go. That guy's a legend. That guy's, yeah, that he's... Like, that's such a huge name, and it's just not a huge name in the US, but, I mean... He did write Hero for Enrique Iglesias.

Yeah. And he did write... Right, and he wrote... I did... Do you believe the love? Yeah, the guy's... Yeah, the guy knows what he's doing. Most of your co-writes are with one other person.

Yeah. Is that by design? No. I'll be honest. I mean, I do like that one-on-one experience and connection, but I have written with multiple folks. You know? In L.A., there's a vibe of, let's get, you know, we need to have at least three,

and that'll go to four or five, sometimes more. And sometimes it's fun. and it's supposed to be fun I bet If you can just view it as like today's just for for fun Yeah Then you might just get a great song from it

Yeah You know There are a lot of songs Yeah Joe who's in this room Had you know Two or three hits that came from A group of people

That were just having A lot of fun in the room But also there is You know There's a An intimacy when it's one on one That you get this left to center Kind of music

And as I moved like into writing really you know 2011 12 13 14 I was it was a big kind of growing period for my for my writing and it always just felt easier maybe even a bit better when it was sort of one on one but I don't mind it when it's two I've not done I don't know if I've really written with when it's been more than three people in the room I don't think I've done one like that I can't remember but

one on one always felt good and like speaking of Paul Barry and when we wrote Let It Go, for me, the writing experience, the co-writing experience can sometimes be extremely collaborative and sometimes in honesty, I have something I'm trying to say and I have a slightly more clear idea of what I'm trying to create and the other person in the room

is like a great buffer or filter and kind of metaphorically kind of sits in the corner, sometimes quite literally, sits in the corner just like with one ear on what I'm doing and kind of helps me along. I might look up when I think I've got the verse and go, what do you think? And they might go, nah. But that's a good co-writer. It's a great co-writer. You know, like not all, you know, if two people in a room and you have to contribute 50%, you know, sometimes if that person contributes 45%, but it's worth 55% of the information, That can be worth it too.

They don't necessarily have to be the one who's writing all the melodies and lyrics in order for them to be a good. And in honesty, sometimes I walk in with an emotion or a feeling and especially like sometimes with John Green and this is probably because we're so close in all of this. He's great at leading it. I'm going, well, I'm feeling this

and he's coming up with phenomenal melodies that I'm chipping in on. Yeah. But he might be leading the sort of musical charge and all based on me talking about how I'm feeling about a thing. So it works in all different ways And it can be like that with three people in the room And I just don't have the experience of more than three of us in the room

But So it varies The music comes out And it's wildly successful Let it go in particular In the US just So that's more my experience With the song

Sure man, yeah But everywhere it's huge It's very cool It goes so much faster than you can tour Absolutely You can possibly be in Australia And in the UK and in the US And the rest of the world

all at once. You tried. We tried. You did your pass. You tried. What does it feel like to be on that kind of roller coaster? How were you mentally dealing with that? Did you mentally deal with it? Great questions. Did I mentally deal with it? I think I did okay. I like to think I kind of went with the flow as much as possible. But boy, was I learning very much on the job, like every day. And learning about when to throw more of my opinion in or more of how I felt and when not to and when to let everybody else just sort of run, you know, steer the ship and run the show. And looking back now, even from where I am today, I've still got learning to do and I've still got work to do on those fronts. But how did I deal

with it as best I could? And I talk to different artists as much as I can about their experience and everybody deals with it different. I think, I don't know. I know obviously I sort of got through it but arguably I'm still on the ride and it'll change and evolve as time goes on and as long as I keep working and writing. But I feel proud of that time.

I mean you went from playing for 100 people your closest allies. And I'm sure there's a difference between that and Glastonbury. Oh man. Just a little. But there've got to be some parts that are really similar and mean different. Like there's got to be some parts of performing in front of 100 people that matter that is somehow difficult mentally in a way that playing in front of 60,000 or some stupid numbers.

Crazy number. Whatever it is. I mean, there's so many fun things that happen during this time. I mean, before we even get to the, Grammys and the Brits and all that you play with the Rolling Stones I think that's before that right Well right around the wildest thing

That as a fan of the Rolling Stones is that And again my modest British self is like tearing my To me to pieces inside This is the worst podcast for that Oh I know I know But I can sit here and say That was the first time I played with the Stones

And there was a second time in 2018 They were very different those occasions I have to be kind of clear and honest. 2013 they played in Hyde Park and they had a string of acts open up for them and they supposedly sort of called everybody up well not called everybody up but you know they asked everybody along

and I the stones went on at like 8pm and played till 10.30 and were phenomenal even in 2013 and I probably went on at like 1pm in the afternoon but the craziest thing for me is that there was a poster all around London that said the Rolling Stones and it had like Jake Bug and a couple of other like great openers and at the bottom of the

poster was my name and I shared the poster with the stones and it was wild and then in 2018 last year they invited us to open for them in twicken them in a stadium like this one in London and we gotta keep it up there you go yeah and and um

and yeah so I got to you know come into contact with one of my favorite different bands and definitely one of the greatest bands of all time for a second time. And this time it says like Rolling Stones. James Bay. Yeah, right after. And they invite me up on stage.

We sang Beast of Burden. It was the craziest experience in my life. Do you call them Mick and Keith? Yeah. Do they text you? Yeah. No. True?

Not Keith. I don't think Keith gives a damn about cell phones. Keith doesn't know what the phone is. And that's great. He doesn't need to. Yeah. He's sending it. pigeon or an owl

I hope so, yeah absolutely I mean you know the love and support that I felt from those guys is still quite impossible to fathom we did three nights at Brixton Academy in 2015 which is a really like well sought after venue in London

and in the UK and Ronnie came and did a song with us Ronnie Wood came up and did a song with us on one of those nights because I asked him, I boldly decided to ask him, and he kindly said, I'd love to. So, yeah, and Ronnie once sent me a, he wasn't sure if I'd got a text. Because he sent me, because he'd sent it from one of the, whether it was an iPad or a Mac or a phone. So he sent me a text which he had taken a picture of the text on his iPad screen with his iPhone and text me the picture of the text from his iPhone.

Classic. That was the greatest moment ever. Classic old man thing. There was so many fantastic emojis. It was a colorful text. It was great. That's something I would do. And I can't believe I'm even saying that to you.

I really can't. It's nuts. So you have... I mean, obviously we all know the success of... I guess we don't all know. The album's super successful. You get a bunch of Grammy nominees. You know, for the Americans, that's huge Brits.

It's massive. I've heard of novellas. Probably the biggest. Oh, yeah. Just stupid kind of accolades. Nuts. Was there any pressure in following up that and did you, were you able to enjoy the aftermath of it?

Or was there like when you've had that kind of year after, you know, two straight years of pushing an album and singles that are reacting, is there a moment where you just were like, I'm going to go on vacation? There was 10 days. Yes. You still remember them. What did you do?

No, no, they were fine. Those 10 days were fine. but they were okay. I was just super hungry to make more music. My only experience of releasing an album was Chaos on the Calm. So, you know, there was massive pressure. Absolutely. There was definitely pressure. And some of that I put on myself, some of that I felt from elsewhere. It's never not going to be like that when, I guess, when your first record or a record that you've released, does those wonderful things. But I had the greatest time, I had the greatest time making my second record.

You got more involved in the production. Way more, yeah. Yeah, way more involved in all of that. I ended up sharing almost the entire experience, like eight or nine out of ten, or 80 or 90% of it was me and John Green, who, like I've already said, is just a great, great friend and a brilliant, brilliant bloke and a brilliant musician and writer.

And we did pretty much all of it together. together. I did write a song on that record with Jimmy Napes, who's phenomenal writer and a great guy. And I was really proud of that. And it felt kind of ready to a lot of us. And it had really just been John and I putting it together and producing it. And Rob at the label had a sort of a chance opportunity when he was sat down with Paul Eppworth to show him some of the stuff. I'm a massive, massive fan of Paul, always have been, or at least, well I say always, definitely around what he was doing with Adel,

like so many of us, you know, when he started to have that great success with the Dell's second record. And I know he'd done great things with bands like Block Party in the past before that. So he's always done brilliant, exciting things. And he heard some of these songs that John and I had put together for the second album. And he called me. He called me up. And he said, I've heard your music.

And I think it's brilliant. And he said, I think you could put it out. but I know that you're not in a great rush and I know that you're you're sort of biding your time and making sure it's finished and he said if I may can I take this opportunity and see if you want to mess around with some of it at my studio

he's got this brilliant studio called the church in Crouch End in London and what an offer I was like I was kind of blown away by this like production hero and kind of modern day legend like coming in and asking if I wanted to work on some of the stuff

I'd already created with him. So we spent me and John went and spent a few weeks with Paul and we, yeah, we kind of tinkered and messed around and really improved a lot of it and brought it to life again. And suddenly we got Paul Etworth, yeah, included in the experience. And I had the greatest time making the second record. And like, all of it's intentional.

You know, I wanted to go somewhere else do something a bit different, evolve and change as an artist. And obviously try and hold on to some of the things that are so instinctively and innately me, musically. And it's all part of the journey. You know, it's a chapter. And it was a lot of fun and I'm excited to, obviously, you know, I got to work with Julia.

Like I got to work with Julia Michaels and who I was always a fan of and had been signed to Republic as well for a couple of years. And, you know, as you'll know, lots of artists and writers, we're never in the same town. the same place at the same time and eventually we were Julie and I had met and then about a year later

we finally got time to work together and we've written a few times but this newest song peer pressure was the first thing we wrote together so yeah everything that came after she says hi by the way she says hi back oh well she she's amazing

she yeah we got we wrote peer pressure was the first thing that we wrote but it was just very cool to sort of get to that's not on the album no that's not electric light Is there a, are you done with electric light as far as promoting at this point? Yeah. And then is the thought process, let's now release singles.

Or is it not really a thought process? And it's like, this is a really good song with my friend. Yeah. Let's release this because this is 2019 and you can just decide to do that. You've nailed it. Peer pressure is that. And I mean, I'm still, obviously, I'm touring and I'm touring, we just did five weeks in the States and it was the electric light tour

and we played a load of songs off electric light and we played stuff of chaos on the calm and we played peer pressure and I even threw a new song in. So, what's a new song? Well, all of that, I'm very proud of this new song. I wrote it with Dan Wilson. Oh nice. It's called Bad and it's yeah, it's really cool. Also our friend, Dan Wilson. What a man. That dude blows me away. His Instagram account is incredible. Yeah. It's like the most Zen like wizarding. I mean, he's the best calligrapher in the music business. He's incredible. But so we, yeah, yeah, I'm, that, what you were saying about just reacting to what you can do in 2019

and how you can release music is where I'm at. And I'm really enjoying that. But I also, I feel like an album artist, whatever is happening with albums, I feel like my fans want albums. I'm an album artist in that respect. And I love albums. I love that body of work, that collection. So I'm, I'm recognizing that. And I'm working. working with that as well, there will be albums. There will always be albums for me. When you think of where you started with parents that listen to, one that listens to rock music, one that listens to soul,

you're like, those are both genres that are truly album genres. Big time. And so it's hard to envision only releasing singles and having someone ever get identity of an artist from it. You'd have to release so many singles, and then you're putting so much pressure on the listener to stitch together the human. That's where the album track

We call it the album track But that's where that seems extremely important Because it's just another For the listener it's like Oh this is another thing that they were thinking around this time And another thing that they were feeling around the time Of making this music You know because so much like you say

So much pressure is loaded onto the point of the single And what it's saying and how it sounds and all of that But you still have to feel some of that pressure Yeah Oh yeah Absolutely but you, I think a lot of us have more music that we want to make than just a singles worth.

Even if you release five singles in four months or whatever, there's more, there's always more. You know, music can come quick sometimes and in kind of boatloads. And some of that stuff's good. Did you ever want to write for other people? That's still... I mean, you have some cuts, right?

Yeah, or some people covered stuff? Yeah, people have covered stuff. I know that there was a I know that Kygo used a song that I wrote I'm forgetting actually there's there's a few different like things that have sort of sort of seeped and bled out there

and that I've been a part of writing but I suppose I still my feeling still towards that is I've got like stuff I want to prove about myself as a musician and things I want to say and absolutely so but I do to answer your question in a word yes I would like to do more of that

I'm just I guess I'm trying to find time. What happens to you in the next couple years? Oh man What's your dream scenario? I would like, I mean I'd like to keep I would really like to keep being able to tour around the world and like, you know, sell out shows. Like I'd like to do that.

God, if I'm honest with you, I'd like to be on the radio. I'd like, I'd like to keep doing what I've been able to do for the last four or five years in some capacity for the rest of my life, let alone the next three or four years or whatever. Which I know is bold. You want the Rolling Stone grandkids to open for you. Oh, I thought you're going to say, oh, I mean, that would be wild.

Or go and keep playing with them. I thought you're going to say, just achieve what the Rolling Stones achieved, and everybody wants that. I mean, that would be amazing. But I just want to be able to keep doing it. Do you have a personal life? Yes, I have a very personal life.

How? When? Sometimes. I don't know. I do. I have Lucy, my girlfriend at home. We've been together for 11 years. Oh, amazing. And we are, we're great.

And it's a wild ride, but I've been able to be on it with her the whole time. Shout out to Lucy. Massive shout out to Lucy. She was. No, she's very creative, though. She works in ceramics and all that. But no, yeah, I want to be able to tour. I want to be able to keep coming to America to tour.

I have to say, have a very good time doing that. And then hopefully go around the rest of the world as well, like I've been able to do for the last few years. All right, well, let's go to this next segment. Five for five. Five of five. There's probably a better title, as we've discussed, for 50-something episodes. I'm going to just list five names, and you're going to tell me the first thing that comes out at the top of you.

All right, here we go. Alex, your brother. Oh, man. He's just like, he's like a whole part of me, like physically and spiritually. He's one of the biggest and mainest reasons that I got into doing this. I needed him. I realized more than ever in hindsight that I needed him.

We went in together into this. We walked out into the world being musical together. And even though I went off on my own, I couldn't probably have done that without starring next to him. Tom, you're bassist. Actually the same answer,

because Tom is, I've known Tom since I was probably two years old. He's a brother. He's family. You know, we, and he was, it was me and Alex, and it was Tom, it was the three of us. It must be so weird to be on, stage with someone you've known since you're two and be like how are these people still listening

to us it's got to feel absolutely wild that really nuts but this is kind of the same answer for tom yeah well then let's just keep going on these people that's going to say in the same one it's got to be john green you got to have it yeah it is the same but but in a slightly different way john has taught me so much about writing lots of people have taught me lots about writing but john we've dug in pretty deep over the years on all on all different sort of subjects surrounding music and life and and he is right there. Just what a companion. Great dude.

Definitely the funniest, yeah, funniest person I've ever met. Yeah, he's very funny. I think I worked with him and Lucy Silvis, you know?

Oh yeah, amazing. And Lucy and John go back a long way. They were kids when they first met, yeah. Yeah,

let's give Lucy another shout out. I mean, I know you just did, but. No, yeah, like, that's almost hard to put into words.

Yeah. She's, like, she's kept me alive. Yeah. I think she still does. Like, that's, yeah,

she's vital. Yeah, a good relationship with, if you're an artist to have somebody that, that's probably the best co-writer you have. Oh my God. Do you know what I mean? No one never really talks about it about anybody

who's in a relationship who's an artist knows that, you know, I joke about it with my wife, but it's like for sure, you know, there are times where she says, well, do I get any writing credit? And I'm like, well, I mean, you know, you get 50%. And it's a full spiritual

credit. It's got to come for something. Paul and Ryan, my manager, Paul and Ryan, will really kind of understand that one too because she's actually a, yeah, she kind of makes the square in a way. There's the four of us like,

in terms of like how work goes, she can be really vital to it in an enormous way. And over the years as well, you know, yeah, I'll say that. I'm going to do two more if that's okay. Do it. six for six. Is that okay, guys? Okay. Let's do Julia Michaels. Julia Michaels.

Julia, like, because she's this incredible writer, but she's this incredible artist. I saw her perform the other night. She was very kind and invited me up when she was opening for Pink at the Staples Center. We got up and did peer pressure. So I've really experienced her fully as an artist now, as well as mainly beforehand,

experiencing her as a writer. And she's obviously very young in this whole experience. She's only in her early 20s and she's achieved so much so she's totally wise beyond their years and we both meet brilliant writers who've been doing this for all sorts of numbers

of years but to find somebody so talented and successful so young with such a wise head on her shoulders she's taught me even in the time I've known her a lot about I guess what I want to do going forward and how I want to be as an artist

and a writer so pretty indispensable She's a huge heart. Yeah, big time. Yeah, okay. Let's finish on your management, not just because half of them are here right now. But let's finish with the keynote because they were there from the show from Brighton.

And you know, I've met all sorts of artists, as have you, as has Paul, who go through different managers and managers that go through different artists. It's a little bit how I am. The reason why Paul and Ryan and I still work together nearly 10 years later. It's definitely about how I am. I'm a loyal person and I love relationships that grow over time, you know, professionally in work and in everything else. I love that.

I'm all about that journey. But God, they've taught me like so much. And I think I, one of the things I appreciate the most is the courage actually from their perspective to go, yeah, that's not good enough. That needs to be better. That's priceless. That's absolutely priceless. So many artists kind of come into this like, okay, great. And they kind of rub their hands together and go, when's the first theatre arena, stadium? When's the first private jet, this, that, you know, when's the first, where's the numbers, when's the first hit single? I've thought those kind of things like everybody else has, but you need like, you need like level heads on shoulders from the like I've had from the likes of Paul and Ryan to go all that stuff's on the way

but let's just focus on right now and like how good is the song and how good is the performance and could it be better it could always be better so let's just keep working for that and you can say that in passing but to kind of ingrain that into somebody's psyche is a difficult thing to do but a vital extremely important thing to do what's advice you'd give to an up-and-coming writer and maybe even a British up-and-coming writer. A British up-and-coming writer. I'd say the same thing to a British up-and-coming writer that I would say to an American up-and-coming writer

or anybody from all over the world. Do as much listening as you can from all corners of music and the world. Listen, listen, listen, soak up as much as you can. And, you know, take as much of that into account when you are creating as you can. Now, that sounds like a big art. but what I really mean is keep a very open mind.

Anything, you know, anything could go anywhere. And like you were saying, when you were talking about having a room full of writers for some sessions, have as much fun with it as you can. Have as much fun with it as you can. Do it from the heart, you know? Well, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me.

When you were releasing new music, and you were playing at S&L and you did Wild Love. I remember that being something that we were really excited, me and my wife, we're excited to see what the next music would be. I can't name five artists that I cared to listen to see where they go.

That means the world, man. So before we ever met, I was excited to see your progress. I'm impressed with it so far. No, it's just starting. Thanks, man. We'll do this again after the next three albums, and you come back, you're like, whoa. Well, in that time.

Now check this. Now check this out. And it's going to be no way. And we're actually going to do this at Wembley. That's what we should do. In three albums, that's our goal. Our goal is to actually somehow do this in the middle of Wembley. And just so we can do it, even if it's like an update, we just need to do it.

next time you're playing, we'll just be there and we'll go just to do 15 minutes and say, this is crazy. But I'm proud of you, even though we're just meeting. And thank you again. And excited to see what's next. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist.

Or visit our website at and The WriterIs.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is, is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsmah, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Goldman.