And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 72: Scott Harris

Episode Date: October 14, 2019

He is a multi-platinum, Grammy-nominated songwriter, producer, and musician best known for his work with Shawn Mendes and co-writing the Grammy-winning No. 1 song, "Don't Let Me Down" by The Chainsmokers featuring Daya. Additionally, he co-wrote the Shawn Mendes single, "There's Nothing Holding Me Back" which hit #1 at TOP 40, the newest Shawn Mendes single, “If I Can't Have You”, the Grammy-nominated for song of the year “In My Blood”, and the current The Head and The Heart single, “Missed Connection” which hit #1 at alternative radio. Recently, Harris had the singles “Walk Me Home”, which hit #1 at Hot AC radio, and “Hurts 2B Human” by P!nk, “Ballin Flossin” by Chance the Rapper featuring Shawn Mendes and Kesha’s “Best Day” featured in the film, Angry Birds 2. He has also worked with Dermot Kennedy, Alec Benjamin, Julia Michaels, K. Flay, Michael Buble, Jon Bellion, Noah Kahan, Jessie J, Bebe Rexha and X Ambassadors. And The Writer Is…Scott Harris! This episode is sponsored by BMI. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 5 of And the Writer is with your host, Ross Golan. Before I get my spiel, I want to acknowledge the music army that listens to this podcast every week. Since starting this, the And The Writer is community has literally changed the history of the music business by helping pass the music modernization act, gotten songwriters added to album of the year for the Grammys, and still is advocating for positive changes for our industry. industry on a daily basis. So thank you and congrats. Now, as you know, I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, Big Deal Music Publishing, and

mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. And The Writer Is.com. Songwriters, think about your favorite hit song and what makes it in earworm. You could be the writer behind the next song, and that goes viral. Enter their 20th annual NSAI song contest presented by Martin guitars and strings and CMT.

You could win several prizes, including the one-on-one mentoring session with El King, myself, and fellow and the writer is producer Joe London. The lyric only winner will score $2,000 cash and mentoring session with award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas, as well as other coveted prizes. Send in your best songs now through October 31st at NSAI.cmt.com. Welcome to And The Writer is, I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's humble Grammy-nominated, modest multi-platinum, unpretentious songwriting superstar has done the impossible multiple times. The impossible is not the many number one songs this guy's pen, but it's the ability to break an artist, like really break an artist.

This is his bread and butter, whereas others aim for high floor artists. This guy gets in the proverbial mud, plants, the proverbial seeds, and proverbially grows these people from virtually nothing to worldwide music giants. For example, the chain smokers and Sean Mendez and the future Alec Benjamin and Dermott Kennedy. From the other coast, this understated New Yorker is a mentoring publisher and congenial co-writer and a devoted husband. I'm running out of adjectives and superlatives, and the writer is my friend, Scott Harris. Wow. That is a lot of adjectives.

That's what I'm saying. I feel like we've got like nine song titles out of that intro. I'm going to replay that back and give you a couple songs out of that. Yeah, cool. I'll take one percent. Okay, so as one of the only last people who still holds on to, I'm a New Yorker, what is it like being a New Yorker in the music industry in 2000? and 19. I would

definitely be lying if I said it was easy. It feels, I don't know, it sometimes feels crazy, but sometimes is refreshing, honestly. Like, I want to, I want to be somebody who, you know, artists and writers can come to New York and feel kind of fresh, which feels good to me. Like, when people come to New York and they're like, oh, man,

like, I haven't been here in a while, or, like, I love the energy here, and there's just, like, not a lot going on. So I kind of can take them for a few days on a little like songwriting journey and somewhat of a break from LA. Amazing. So how did you start? I mean, well, let's talk. As I like to say, you were born.

I was born. Okay. So I was born in New York City. I guess I moved to Long Island when I was three or four years old. My father was a pharmacist and my mother was an English teacher. and I don't know I guess I kind of was like as like a three or four year old

just like playing the piano strumming the guitar and just like writing melodies on the piano and not really trying to figure anything else out I think that's kind of what my parents were like whoa he's like not copying anything

he's just like making his own shit and do you think your mom being an English teacher I know like Lauren Hill's mom was an English teacher and you know some of these people who are great songwriters come from parents

who are teachers who teach literature. Is that a coincidence? No, I think there's definitely some influence there. I mean, like, more so I was making music and my father is a jazz musician also and he kind of was like, you know, he saw me playing and like he saw me like kind of starting

to incorporate like major sevens and stuff. And he was like, don't do that. Like I play jazz my whole life. He's like, if you could just like stay away from those little bit like it'll be more contemporary or might actually be a profession. And he's like, and I want you to like really focus on lyrics. He's like, I see you.

playing music, but like nobody's ever going to listen to you if you don't have words. And like, think from there, like, I kind of like took a little bit of my mom's. So he was teaching you how to write songs even at that point. He was kind of like, I think as any father does is like, this is what I did and this is how to take a step into the other direction to maybe make it more of a profession. Not that he like wasn't happy with the music he was creating. Like it's some of the craziest shit I've ever heard and it's out there. And it's, it's, there was lyrical content to it.

But yeah, I mean, there was. way he pushed me into like just make, he's like, even if it doesn't make sense in the beginning, just have some type of lyrics. He's like that way like when friends and family come around, you can at least like entertain a little bit. No one's going to like want to listen to you just like play some piano. I guess he like learned that from like being in jazz clubs and people like, you know, having drinks and talking in the background. Yeah. The talking in the background part is that it's a real sound. I know you've been in bands that we'll get there, but have you ever played a show where people just talk over you and you're trying to play like that

intimate song? Never. Oh my God. So many of those shows. I mean, I did, I guess like at the end of high school or even in high school, even as I had my high school band, I started to do like open mic nights as like my singer songwriter project. And like an open mic night in like the middle of Long Island on like a Tuesday night is like

six people. You know, at most. Six people and they're all waiting to go up on stage. They're all waiting to go up. And it's like maybe like a couple of your friends are there. And it's like, even though your friends are talking through it, you know, you're just trying to, like, figure anything out to make anybody give a shit. What's the first song that's, like, your song?

First song. I did a song that was, like, my high school band, which was, like, you know, my best friends. Is this low tide? This is low tide. Okay, so what's the story of low tide? Because that's the first time that we see anything in your, you know, story. Yeah, I mean, low tide is, like, high school band. I guess, like, my father had a program called, like, acid,

pro. I don't know if you remember the program. He didn't really know how to work it either. And I didn't have to work it either. But he's like, here it is. And it was in my basement with like a little setup with a shitty mic and a piano. And like I kind of was going down into the basement and just like spending hours creating and producing and writing all this like random, kind of like random, which are like pop songs really. And I guess by the time I was done like fast forward a few months, there was like 13 or 14 songs that like basically every song was like clipping and like sounded horrible, but they were pop songs, and that kind of just, like, showed my friends who were, like, one was a guitar player, it was like a fishhead, and I was like, dude, can you just, like, make it more pop?

And, like, my friend played the drums, and he was, like, pretty good drummer, like, never going to be a professional drummer. And my other friend was a bass player, and kind of just, like, started jamming the songs that I had done on, like, Acid Pro, and, like, pressed up a CD, sold it in our high school, and, like, that was kind of the birth of low tide. Is it good? And it's terrible. Really?

I mean, that's the, even the writing. part. The writing, there's like melodic moments where I'm like, that's nice. But like, lyrically, it's like, oh, it's tough. I could never listen to that right now and feel good about myself. It's, it's really strange when you listen to those first things because that's before you, that's before you know what you're doing. Oh, yeah. And even when you listen to famous music, like the radio, if I listen to music from, you know, the early 90s or mid-90s, I mean, probably even through that, I still think of, you know, I still think of it as magical. Totally.

And so whenever I listen to music now, it's like, you start thinking about it. You start analyzing it. Totally. You know? When did you start understanding that this could be a profession? Or is it way later? I think it's way later. I think like I still, like, in high school, like, it was fun.

I was like, it would be cool to like be in a famous band and be a rock star. But like, I was also like, it'd be cool to be on the Knicks. I had like no idea what I was doing. I was like, I could be a three-point specialist. Totally. You know, I know I'm Jewish, but I could be the one. So like, yeah, I started like imagining it being a possibility, but like never a reality kind of until I guess, you know,

after high school when I was like I should go to college for music. But I think it was your degree in. I was actually in music business. Oh, yeah. Yeah. From SUNY, right? Yeah, from SUNYONI, ATA. I'm actually going back there in a couple months to do a little lecture, which should be fun.

Congratulations. Yes. But I really don't know if I learned a ton there, honestly. Like I really just, I made a lot of friends. I feel like sometimes I lost some time in college because I was, you know, partying is super fun. But like taking classes that like don't pertain to anything I do. And like you can't fully teach songwriting more so than just getting in the room. So even when I work with like new.

were writers and artists who are in NYU. I'm like, oh, it's really cool that you're in NYU and you're already doing sessions. I feel like I missed like four years being like upstate New York smoking weed. Not that I would give that out. It was awesome. But like there's something about just being in the major city as you know to like develop the craft.

Yeah. When you were in college, wait, is that the Scott Harris Project or was that also? Scott Harris Project was like pieces of low tide turning into like a solo thing. It was like never like, I don't think the music was even any different. It was just like now I'm going to go perform it without you guys. Who introduced you to the idea of co-writing? That came like a lot later for me. I wish it came sooner. I had been doing Scott Harris project and like writing everything 100% for a while until like one of the band members was like, I want to try to write a song and I was like,

okay, let's try that. And there was like one co-written song on like, you know, one of the albums for a little bit. You were releasing it yourself. I was releasing it. Yeah, everything was released myself. Even anything I did in like the Warner-ish deal that I had, like was still like never came out under that. Explain what that is. So I met somebody early in my career who was a lawyer who I guess had a JV with Tom Wally at the time. And, you know, basically you know, on his track record of like, you know, finding some new talent and being the lawyer of some super cool bands convinced, you know, Tom Wai to let me make a record pretty much was how that happened. And I guess the whole entire time was like maybe like eight months to a year of like

being in the studio like kind of trying to figure out what the sound was, which I ultimately think never happened in retrospect. But the best thing ever was honestly when Tom Wally and crew were like, you know what? Just like do your own thing. And I was like, okay, sweet. I don't even know if I like these songs anyway. So let me just like go out and try to do a new thing. And which I just like made a bunch of new songs and recorded him with a friend and that's actually like all the Scott Harris project music that's online. Wow. Did they fund it?

Or was it stuff that you were funding and they were distributing it? They funded it. I was living in New York. I was like during college. I took a semester off and they paid for like me and one of the band members to like go out and like live in L.A. for like a couple months. Wow. So I didn't realize you were out here during that. Yeah. Wow.

Where did you record it? Do you remember? I don't remember what it was called, but I made the music with DJ Lethal from Limp Biscuit. Wow. Which is, which was a crazy, which, like, I was honestly super excited about not because I was, like, a big limp biscuit fan, but because, like, he had done, like, House to Pain and, like, Sugar Ray. And I was like, this is a crazy combination. Like, this could be amazing. Like, I'm, like, a singer-songwriter guy. Like, I love, like, I grew up on, like, hip-hoppy shit.

So I was, like, this could be, like, the perfect, like, combination of, like, what could be cool. and it just wasn't. Man, like, obviously this is your story and not mine, but same sort of thing where my first album comes out because I do a distribution deal with a major distributor and then they funneled it through their system. But during that time is when I met Fred Durst.

And Fred was like a big A&R guy, like had signed Puddle of Mud and signed like another one of the, big bands that I'm sure someone's going to hit me up about. You know, he became like a big A&R guy. Totally. The guys from Limp Biscuit, you forget that these are, you just, when you're younger, you think, ah, Limbiscuit, these guys were savvy, really good musicians and were actually

really smart business people. So when those guys are saying, and especially at that time, if he's like, I'm going to help you record, they were the biggest. They were huge. And like, Fred Ders was, like, coming by the studio to, like, listen. And I remember, like, not. I didn't know like any like like legit musicians. I'd be like, holy shit.

Like Fred Towers is in the room. Like that like blew my mind at first. Yeah. Did you, did you ever hang out with them socially at all? Not really. I mean, I did,

I spent a ton of time at the studio and like, honestly, they smoked so much weed at the time that I, like, honestly intimidated me. And I liked smoking weed. But like I couldn't. I was when I realized like I couldn't hang.

And like I shouldn't be smoking. Like, because they were like just such like, it just like bongs. everywhere. And I tried like a couple times to be like, yeah, I'm like cool enough to like smoke weed with them because I did like, you know, I did smoke a little bit. And like

every time I tried it was like, no, this shit's too much for me. How did you, you ended up touring with Teddy during this, which is amazing. Yes. But how did that happen? And do you guys spend time together at that point? Do you guys realize?

I mean, it's so weird in retrospect, considering how much you guys have done together. I mean, we had no idea. the time but that was kind of like that was maybe like a year or two after that after I'd made that like kind of independent album I had been working with the new manager who I guess hooked me up with like William Morris and started like booking a ton of shit um so I was doing like a lot of colleges and playing a ton of shows and like opening up for a lot of people and I actually like had opened up for Teddy maybe like once or twice before that tour and I guess that was kind of one of like

the longer tours of the Scott Harris project and I think the first like it might have been like two and a half months or maybe even three months and like the first like month and a half like we didn't even talk and then you know like the last like couple of weeks we started to become friends and then I don't think we saw each other for like another like five years are you still an artist

I can like I consider myself an artist in a lot of ways I don't think I'm like I have like zero desire to like get on stage and like perform my music at this point but like I think there's like artistry and every writer like everyone's kind of got a craft and

how they do it is essentially an artist. Do you write 100% songs anymore? I don't. I do sit down and write songs, but every time that I think something is good, I'm like, oh, shit, I better bring this into a session. Like, I never have the urge to be like, I'm going to put this out.

But I do try to, like, be like, can I still do it? Do I want to do it? Did you ever produce? Yeah, I mean, I did. Even like the early, like, Scott Harris Project stuff, I was like kind of co-producing and helping produce. I don't think I was ever like a finisher type of producer.

But even now, like in the sessions I do, like I still like end up doing a ton of production, especially like in New York. Like I'll start a bunch of ideas and like pass them on to the producer. Acid pro. Acid pro. No longer acid pro. Right. When you were on tour, did you tour with the, because you said some of them were from, you know,

you're low tide. Are these still, were you touring with friends? No. This was a couple of hired musicians slash friends I had met in the local Long Island scene who just wanted to also be in a band. And they saw a little bit of traction going on and some interest. And the idea of like when you're younger, just like getting on the road is like an accomplishment. So I think we did a lot of touring as a four piece band.

And then they were some good players. And then there was a lot of just like singer-song or acoustic guitar. trying to win over the crowd with one mic and one guitar which I'm sure you're familiar with. Yeah, I'm still doing it today. When you were, that's really funny. It's like put me in like a whirlwind

and I had like a giant spiral of anxiety. How much did performing in front of people change how you wrote? Oh, like a ton. Because that was the first time you'd really toured. A ton. Like I started to. write songs like for the crowd and not for myself a little bit like I was especially as like one person

and one guitar I would try to like create moments of like even if you've never heard me you could sing this type of stuff or like and even if you've never heard me this concept could be interesting like I remember I had this one song that I had written and it was like about a roommate that I'd live with that I didn't like is it true it's totally true it was in college um and like I've I wrote the song and just like translated immediately into like the college meetings. I would like open up the set and be like, I wrote this for like a roommate that I really don't like. If like anybody has ever like had that experience, like you know what it's about. And like immediately everyone's like right in.

And that's when I was like, wow, I can like take pieces of my life and people will care more so than me like trying to make up a random topic. Do you teach that to because you work with so many young artists? Do you ever talk about that concept on like what it's like to tour the music that you write? Totally. Like I even remember like in the very, very beginning of Sean, like some of the earlier songs being like, you know, you could try to have a part like this because, you know, he at the beginning when he was like opening up for some people and he only had like one or two songs. Like people knew one song. And that was like, you know, we would write parts in there to be like, now the crowd can sing here. So I think like, yeah, totally translated.

So what I don't even know what year we're at right now. Like when you were touring, how long did you tour and when were you done with that? I think it was probably like, I was like kind of slightly touring in college, maybe like 2006 to like 2005 to like 2010. There were still shows going on. And I think maybe 10 was like the last like Scott Harris show or something like that. Were you feeding yourself during any of that? I was not well, obviously. Yeah.

I mean, it's just an interesting, I just wonder how you make a living as a touring artist. Oh, there was times where it was like, you know, where I'd open up for like a semi-legit band or a legit band. And like, I would just like sell tons of merch and that would like last me because I was like taking in all the merch money. So that was like kind of how I made money a little bit. And then I was like also doing like weird like side hustle jobs like New York City like teaching guitar lessons. And like, you know, there's tons of odd jobs that that happened in between to like keep the lights out for sure. Did your parents ever question, you know, let's say, well, you should, you know, keep going. you're funding yourself or were they ever like maybe you should this this is definitely like a like a

looming topic in my life because my father always was like never give up like you got he's like you're too good like don't don't stop I don't care when it says like he would have like let me like live on the street before I gave up and my mom was like you know like I really don't want you to like not have any money or like not have a family like she was always wondering like can you could get a degree in something else, like, while you're still trying. My father was just like, I'm either going to be like the biggest asshole or like be laughing. You know, like, he's like, because I just know it's like inside of you. So like he was the one who was like, you got to.

My mom was like, be smart. And I think when I started to like make some money, my mom was like, oh, like, I knew it. I told you. Like, I told you to stick with it. Funny how that happens. Okay, so then, you know, 2010, was there a final show where you know what? This is the last. This is the last Scott show.

I don't think it was that, but I think I had a... It's a hard decision to be like, you know what, I've been striving to be an artist, I've been through bands, I've toured, I've been signed, I've been really... Oh, it was like... To say, I'm throwing the towel. In L.A., there are so many artists who try to be artists

for way too long. Totally. And they don't have a good grasp on where they are. And there's that fine line of, you know what, I'm going to make it someday. And then, you know, they're in their 40s. They're still playing with the same band. They've played with for 20 years.

And they still are playing the same venue. They've played for 20 years. And they still don't have a deal. Or they still don't have a hit. You know, it's really hard to throw in the towel and understand that that's not giving up on yourself. That was what, like, I don't know if it was like a defining show, but that was a crazy thing in my life.

Because I think since high school through past college, like everyone, like everyone in my life knew me as like guy trying to like make it you know and a lot of people were super supportive and like I had millions of friends who like knew all the lyrics and I had legit fans who were reaching out on you know my space and whatnot I know we spoke about myspace earlier and like it just it seemed like crazy to give up that identity and that certainly was a pretty tough thing to to deal with but because I had not really done a ton of co-writing like I was kind of like before the last couple shows I had been I had been a had been doing a little bit of co-writing for like some other stuff and I kind of was like

more excited about that that I had never done that I was like oh my god like I can make all this music that like doesn't have to sound like a singer-songwriter and it was like yeah I'm like sad in one aspect but like I'm inspired I'm more inspired than I've been you know like grinding it out sleeping in the van you know like it just seemed like who was opening that door for you at the time I was signed with Mark Jordan and E. McEveley at Rebel One they had been like doing my artist project with me and helping me out and Mark at the time was I think he still is not sure working with Alex the kid

and I think he was like hitting that success with Alex where he's like in producer land and we had been like still like showcasing for labels a little bit and there was some interest but it wasn't the right deal or wasn't the right fit and he was like you should like try you know writing to some of these like Alex the Kidbeats and just see what happens. And I wrote some terrible top lines over those songs,

but it was inspiring to hear some stuff on hip-hopish beat and watch his kind of rise and watch Mark's rise with Alex and be like, oh, shit, like, I should get into this. Like, this looks pretty awesome and I enjoy it. So it's kind of like how the world started to open. Do you remember any of those first top lines? Do you have any idea of what those were called? Because it's really strange when you go to, when you try to, when you, when you, when you try to write, because when you try to write a pop song after writing being an artist, it never works out how you think it is.

So you start writing songs that you think are pop songs. And those are not pop songs. I just remember using shorty, like using the word shorty and all those first top lines. I used shorty. I used shorthy. And you can't take it back. Yeah, no. This is amazing.

Somebody gave me beats from the guy who was playing keys for Kanye. And it was the first time I had the same sort of thing. It later turned out to be Jeff Basker. And I sent in a song called, I probably was called like Shorty. Every song on the radio was Shorty this. Totally. So like, you know, and that's what happens when you're aspiring. You chase trends.

and then when you're older you realize, oh, I'm going to just do what I did the whole time. But at the time, I just remember getting an email back through the guy who connected us. Dave Hoffman, if you're out there, hi. And he goes, he gets this email and it's basically like, this might be the most racist. I really just was trying to write a pop song. I'm so sorry for anybody out there that I've offended in this. But, so, you know, you go through this experience. It's inspiring, but you're still not writing in the same room.

You're starting to write to beats. Totally. I think from there, I started to, like, do some more co-writing and meeting some different people. There was, like, kind of this little circuit of, like, New York writers who we'd, like, kind of get up and, like, write to, like, four in the morning every night over, like, different producers' tracks we were getting. and kind of all became friends and kind of all you shorthy together for a few years before we realized that wasn't the way

but like I think there was a lot of development in that space like from the track world and then being like wait like why I'm writing to tracks like I wrote all these songs on acoustic guitar like this is how it's good like why am I doing this? And then it's you know it's the learning process

of like what gets you excited anyway versus like what's trying to get people excited. I mean just looking through your discography because it really starts in 2011 in the post-artist phase. You know, and there's obviously a lot of the trying times. Tons. But in 2014, you get a Jesse J-cut,

and that starts to become like, and at that time, she's a big artist. And it's amazing how you can leverage these things. Even when they're not a single, because I don't think that was a single. When did you write your first single? It kind of feels like it was with Sean in 2000. That was like the first single.

first moment of like single like in the world like here's a song that like people like are identifying like more so than you just wrote a song with ex artist for sure um you know there was like everyone's got like the little victories of like this song is now doing this and that makes you happy and then you get another one you're like wow this is what makes me happy and then you go through that whole chase but yeah i think like life of the party was the first shocking song to me that like i had no expectation of it really working at all and like waking up and it like being number one on iTunes and being like when that was like kind of still a legit thing

and being like holy shit like it can happen you know that that was that moment I mean what's what's crazy about that and this is how behind your back I've described this moment you know it's like you know when you've you've been writing your whole life

and when I said in the intro the idea of most people aim for high floor artists and you you know it's like I remember remember when I got that email of writing with the redhead, had acoustic guitars from the UK, but I had a session with C-Lo, and I chose C-Lo over who's Ed Shearant.

Totally. You know? And at the time, it was like, you know, you're fortunate, you know, you get in those rooms, and if you can get into those rooms, you go to the rooms with the names. But if you can't get into those rooms, you end up writing with a lot of artists

that are on the same level as you as a writer. and the risks you took at the time were not necessarily risks. They were just sort of a product of being in New York, and here's an artist who's there, and this is the connection that you get from a kid who's on Vine, who had gone around to a couple labels, didn't get signed to a lot of labels,

ends of getting signed to one label, and you end up writing with this kid, there's no way, given the same parameters right now, would you take that same session? I would love to look you in the face and say yes. I mean, it certainly, I think about that. Obviously, people send a lot of emails like check out this.

I can open up my email on C7. You know, this is the next Sean Mendez. You should check it out. But I certainly listen to all that stuff because I know that there is that type of artist in there. And I think that's kind of one of the beautiful things for me about being in New York. I get to do that a little bit more.

Even on the writer-producer side, like, I can take a little more risks as I'm not, like, missing out on a crazy session for it. You know, I can take a little bit more time. And I think that's also just going back to the New York thing as a little bit of a special thing there too. And certainly how I met some of the writers I work with too. Songwriters, you could be the grand prize winner and squirp to $5,000 in cash one of 12 more guitars,

as well as a mentoring session with El King, Joe London, or myself. The lyric winner will win an opportunity to be mentored by award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas as well as other coveted prizes. Enter the 20th annual NSAI Song Contest presented by Martin Guitar Strings and CMT, now through October 31st at NSAI.com. NSAI, the National Songwriters Association International, is one of the biggest supporters of songwriters and played a major role in helping pass the Music Modernization Act, a historical piece of legislation that allows you to have a future as a songwriter. This is your opportunity to experience industry access,

one-on-one mentorship with hit songwriters, and fun your creative passions. Song and lyric-only categories are open now for submissions. We can't wait to hear your songs. You know, we were backstage at Saturday Night Live when Sean was performing and you had said to me that, you know, your journey is really taking. together.

And you guys trust each other. And when it comes to even just judging performance or songs or whatever, your careers are so intertwined, at least on the successful train. Do you see yourself as a co-writer, a brother, a mentor, a friend? How is your relationship with this person who when you met him was, you know, Sean the Vine kid to being like... It's definitely like a brother thing for me because it's like we kind of just like

we trust each other and we like learn from each other. And it's kind of like this... Because the rise is kind of like a similar thing. Like I'm brutally honest with him and he respects me for that and he's brutally honest with me and I'm, you know, and it's just kind of like this mutual thing where I don't know. It's like I think you have like certain co-writers in your life

where you're like, I really like writing with them. Every time we write, we get something good. And for me, like, Sean is one of those people. Like, regardless of his, like, journey to the top of the world and how much fun it is to write with, like, a big artist who's killing the world. It's like, we generally, we click. So it's just like, it's enjoyable no matter what. I think that's the reason why, like, he'll, like, FaceTime me and be like,

go, check out this idea. It's not like, we need a session to be like, let's lock in and make it all official. It's like, let's just keep doing what we do. Right. Chain Smokers comes out around the same time, maybe a little bit after that. And you have Don't Let Me Down, which, you know, is becomes their, I think it's their first, like, number one song. Because I think before that they had roses, and I know they had, you know, selfie. But that's another example where Chain Smokers records this song while they're signed to Republic.

They get dropped from Republic, get their masters back, and they move it over. There is no way that the group that does selfie is somebody that you're banking on is going to be one of the biggest groups of 2015, 16, 17, you know? Totally. Being part of that journey, what is that like? I mean, that's a crazy one too. That one has a lot to do with also being in New York

and at the time, you know, working a ton with Emily Warren. and we were writing two or three songs a day every day, like just like nonstop, the two of us, just like figuring out whatever it was. I would pull her into something, she would pull me into something. And that was kind of a day where she had written a song that had come out with the chain smokers,

I guess like a few months before and like kind of developed a relationship with them. And she's like, let's just try a day with them, see what happens. And it wasn't a session where I was like, yes, like can't wait to go. And it's like, sure, Emily says they're good. Like, let's do it, you know? And I think from, I mean, I don't think even, you know, the chain smokers themselves could imagine the life of that song.

But, you know, it's just, I don't know, kind of just like happened. I think there's an important part of this story. And we can talk about it if you're comfortable. But when that song was number one, was a really hard time for you and your family. And I want you to explain the meaning of that song. because even life you know life of the party goes number one on iTunes

it's not the same thing as the biggest song in the country maybe the world at the time and the parallel of what was going on in your career versus what was happening at home I think is important yeah no totally that was like

that was certainly like the most surreal time of my life is kind of like as my father was passing away and yeah definitely hard to talk about that but it was kind of like this weird validation of like because he did see the song go number one after like all these like trials and tribulations of like how are you going to feed yourself in this career so it's kind of like him seeing it and being like you're good definitely

hard to talk about but it was kind of like at the moment where it all felt like this is all going to work out and it's very sad but like it would be sadder if you missed this to me. It's kind of how it felt. It's truly the, it's hard to explain there aren't a lot of things that mark the moment of having a number one song or that, you know, having the success and you know that if you're, you know, I mean, you grew up in a Jewish family from the East Coast, like if you have that kind

of song, then you know that if you're smart, you can be taken care of and your family can be taken care of. And most of our parents that are supportive, you know, one of them being supportive, one being kind of supportive, you know, it's a, it's that moment where all the people who say, like, well, maybe you should look at another job or whatever. And, you know, there's always that one or two people who were there for you during the, the rise that, you know, it's sharing it with those people that mark that moment more than, And, you know, chart positions.

Totally. And everything else. Every time, like, I still have a song, like, come out or do anything, it's still, like, I have that in back of my mind or I'm like, oh, that's frustrating. Like, my dad can't enjoy this. Like, that always comes into my mind. On the other hand, like, if, you know, the fact that he saw it. Totally.

Is everything. I mean. Yeah. You know, even once, you know, the fact that it's been repeatable for you is already, you know, super unusual for a human being. When a song's number one, there are two other writers, three other writers that can share that moment with you

on the planet. That's it. It's not something where the label can applaud, the artist can applaud, maybe the artist is one of the writers, but for the most part, the only people who can share it are you and your co-writers at that moment.

And that's like the part that's so celebrated. But the fact that your dad was able to see, you know, reaching the pinnacle of a career is, I mean, no, no, you know, awards and all the other stuff. That's, I don't know how you beat that moment. Totally. I think that's incredible. I'm totally thankful that it worked out like that. When you wrote with Sean for the next album, Illuminate, which was obviously, a very big album.

Because you guys write closely together, are the songs that all based on your life? Are they all based on his? Or are they not? They're trying to be on his, with like, you know, the idea of that people can relate to it, I think. So I think we like draw from his life most of all. But I think there's always those moments where it's like,

oh yeah, that's happened to me. And that's happened to this person. and this happened to this person. So, I mean, what's amazing about Sean is his desire to be like an old school singer-songwriter and tell stories and tell the truth. And like, I kind of get to help him tell the truth a little bit and then, you know, see whatever,

see how it relates to the outside world. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you know, at this point he had had stitches. He had some songs that had, you know, for himself had been really big. And obviously you guys had to have a unique relationship. treat you better is really the first song that you guys get to experience together that does what you would hope they all would do at radio you know um i guess at that point that's

becomes also when you're a songwriter and you you ring the bell once you kind of hope that you're not a you know a fluke yep if you will you know what kind of validation is it to have you know this is at that point you know your second that that was that was that was an amazing moment not only because of that but because you know i had written a lot of the first album with sean and i was obviously super excited that stitch has happened because we were such good friends and watching it kind of like rise and take over the world was was fun to watch and knowing that we were going to write more songs together like felt good but like it kind of felt like validation and like oh i'm doing the right thing with sean because i always like did i didn't want to

have the feeling like am i like steering him in the wrong direction like i know he trusts me but That's a pretty big responsibility given the stage that he's on. So that song to me was like, okay, like we do kind of know what we're doing together a little bit. Yeah. I think that's fair to say. You know, I don't want to skip too far forward, but during all this, you have, you have Rachel. How do you have, it's funny because when you walk in, you're like, you do more than anybody else to me.

And I always think, man, no, nobody does more than Scott Harris. At least is what it looks like. How are you able to maintain with all this music that's starting to come out and touring and all the stuff? Because, you know, I mean, you were on tour with Sean too a little bit. You know, how do you maintain any sort of personal life?

I mean, I think we do a good job of, we do spend a lot of time together, like even with a lot of the traveling and stuff like that. Like Rachel does come and hang. and what's really great about her other than the million things I could name, you know, and take up many hours of the day, is she tends to have a good vibe with a lot of the writers and artists herself. So it's easy to like, you know, blend the world.

Like I remember like when Emily was coming over every day, like Rachel and Emily like had and have an amazing relationship where it's like they're friends, they're good. Like I could go do another session and like Rachel and Emily are hanging out. And same thing with Sean. We'll make a record upstate New York and Sean generally be like, where's Rachel? Like how come she's not here?

Like people want her around which I want her around too but it makes it easier when the vibe is right between everybody and doesn't seem like a forced thing. There's nothing holding me back. Also just a big ass song. Do you start to assume that

do you feel like it's easy? No. I don't think anytime any song comes out, you're like cross your fingers and like who knows you know like you're like it's it's nice when you have obviously as you know like a bigger artist releasing music but you never know how it's going to be perceived so i i mean it's exciting to have a song like that released into the world i believed in it i'm like this feels like a a big song but you know it doesn't even to where sean is now it's like there's still you know there's been plenty of artists that have had big records that like

put out a song and just like it doesn't happen so i don't think anything anything is a given in any situation. I mean, that one in particular, like I said, it felt good. Yeah, totally. Lots of other big songs, some more badass artists. So we're actually with our friend Sam Harris today. Love Sam Harris. I mean, obviously you've done a lot with him.

Obviously, that's my brother. Just kidding. That's not my brother. Yeah, exactly. Have you ever met another Scott Harris? Not met, but I think like when Facebook first came out, there was a Facebook group of Scott Harris's. So like all the Scott Harrises would like talk to each other on the group. And that's kind of the extent of the Scott Harris is that I know.

There was like maybe like 50 of them and people would be like, I saw your name pop up and you opened up an eyeglass store. You know, like little weird like Scott Harris stores. I'm so glad I asked that question. I'm so glad I had a good answer. Okay, so the third Sean Menda's album comes out and again you have, you know, eight, nine of these songs on all these albums, 10 of these songs or whatever it is.

Youth comes out featuring Khalid and obviously that did well. But in my blood is a whole other level. Not to mention that when everybody's asking for songs that are urban, you know, we need an urban pop song. We need an urban pop song. If I fucking hear that again, I swear to God.

You know, it's like, can it be more urban? And here you come out with a song that is not urban in any way. And he's not an urban artist, and he's so relevant. He's relevant to the point of this song having meaning, and it goes, it gets Grammy nominated. I mean, do you feel any pressure to find? follow trends ever. I don't think so.

I mean, that's the biggest lesson in that for me. I think we all like to not, you know, at least talk out loud the sentence like we're not chasing trends and sometimes just happens accidentally like once you hear that kind of like soak a groove, it's easy to fall into that type of song that you know is about to happen.

But with that one in particular, I mean, that was the first song that we had written for that album. And Sean was the one who was like, it'd be cool to, he was like, he'd just listening to like, you know, more stadium rock, Coldplay, like Kings of Leon and like had seen a couple of those shows. And, you know, I would be a big Coldplay fan, Kings of Leon fans. Like, I kind of was able to be like, yeah, like, make something like this. And from there, I mean,

we had written like probably like 50 other songs after that, but that song was the one where it was just like, whoa, this one means something. This feels like the rock thing. We had like, the record actually didn't end up being as rock as it intended to be. Like, there was like five or six. that sounded like that. And ultimately, we're just like, as the record process went on, listening to more music, getting inspired by more shit. And that was kind of the one rock song that hung on and became like the most special one

and like the obvious one that raised its hand before the album came out. So many people try to, when they're writers, they try to show how much they can write. And that's such an understated melody. There's so much space. And it allows the listener to listen to the line, focus on what you're saying,

and sing it back for the next time it comes around. It's structurally a very mature record for any artist, but everyone's always trying to show their technique off or how many lyrics they can write, and they're so afraid of rest. And that song is just not afraid. It's just sort of It sits in like

You know after it comes out You look like such like a genius But like while it's happening You're like This has a lot of space Like is the course good enough Like should it start with the chorus Is that even the chorus?

It was like a lot of that during that song And But some of that is exactly what it is It's like this confidence game And it takes an artist being like No This is what I want to say It's probably not a pitchable song

No I don't know that you get that song necessarily, well maybe you would. But I think most people when they pitch that song, no one would listen to it and feel like it would be competitive. But if an artist felt like it was theirs, I think that you

have a shot. Totally. I think also it comes from Sean being mature and him doing bigger shows and wanting to be the guy in the stadium. It's like, how do you make songs for the stadium? Not just like make songs. And that's song as a result

of that too, for sure. It's back from Touring. It's the same thing. Death of a hero for Alec Benjamin. I'm bringing up these two particular artists because they feel like they have a similar trajectory as what Sean had. But that song, you know, it's so well written

and it's not like they didn't go to radio with it, but it's the kind of song that people talk about. You're still taking risks on those artists. Do you feel like when you go in with it, With Alec, are you thinking, man, this is, you know, it's a new artist who's... It kind of depends on the artist. With Alec, I had heard, I guess I had heard some of his music. And I was just, like, really impressed.

And I still, I like to get to that space where I'm like a little scared where I'm like, oh, man, like, I'm going to try to work with Alec, but I don't know if I can help him. Like, he might be too good or may not want to collaborate. And it was inspiring. It's kind of like when you get into a session with, like, a writer you've never written and you get a little bit nervous where you're like, man, like, am I going to be able to hang? And, you know, Alec doesn't have like a crazy track record at this point,

but I just felt like he was really good. And we had written a bunch of songs before Death of a Hero, but like every single time we had gotten together, I had loved the song and I'd love the process and thought he was a really, really smart writer. And that was just like, I think he had come to New York for five days to do a bunch of music. And that was like the one that stuck.

What about Dermannty's, also another one that's on this pretty crazy trajectory. Yeah, Dermit. Are you reaching out to these people? Do they reach out to you? I think it's like a combination of both. Like with Dermit, it might have been like, do you want to do this session with Dermit?

His team wants you to work with him. And I'd be like, oh, fuck, yeah, I love Dermit. Like I love his music. Like 100%. Like, and it's not, like, you said, it's like not the most obvious session. And like I had, you know, I'd talk to some friends and be like, have you written with Dermann?

They're like, yeah. like, I don't know if he likes to collaborate that much. And I'm like, here I am, like, scared and intimidated. And I'm, like, listening to his lyrics. And I'm like, it's like this Shakespeare stuff. I'm not smart enough. But, like, it's like a challenge a bit to, like, see what happens when you get in that room. And I think, you know, when you write a good song with somebody the first time, there's

always that little bit of magic. And I think with him, that kind of happened with power over me. It was the first song we had written together. I had, like, just landed in London and, like, come straight from the plane, like, look terrible. Like, he had, like, come from Ireland on a boat. And we're just like, nice to meet you, man. And like that song kind of happened and like the relationship kind of developed from there.

Yeah, I think both of those two. If I put my money on two guys, I'd probably put them on them. But speaking, putting money on people, how about Pink? She's a young writer. She seems like she's got some things going on. Those two songs are pitched. And she is an amazing ability to, when she writes, she writes, when she takes outside songs, she makes it feel like she wrote them.

she's incredible. Totally. I had one song with her. I don't know if I realize how big she is. When you see these songs worldwide and you see what they do, did you know what you were getting into with Pink? No, not at all. I mean, I knew that I was a fan of her previous music

and I knew that, like, I had, you know, she's had like a million hits over the past, like, you know, have her along. So it's like an exciting moment. of like here you are like getting to have a song with like an icon you know in a lot of ways so that was exciting but like I like said until you like look at those numbers and see how people are reacting all over the world you're like yeah this person did not you know didn't start their career yesterday I mean she moves so many units and I don't think people realize she's she's still like literally moving tons of physical units and plus streaming and all that she's just one of the few artists

that really have that kind of fan base. But she's earned it. She's incredible. If I can't have you is on its way. I think it's number five today. It'll probably be number one by the time people hear this. Knock on wood. What prevents you from wasting money and buying yachts?

Maybe you own yachts. I don't own yachts. But, you know, I was like, I just didn't have any money for so long. You know, like I grind it for so long that I'm just like, I still like feel like It can like be taken away Or like that I still have to work You know, and I still want to work

And I want to like Keep the dream alive in a lot of ways Is that why you work so hard, do you think? I think I work so hard because It doesn't feel like work. It's like it still feels like what I want to do. It's fun. Like I don't think it's triggered by that at all.

It's more so like, you know, when I'm doing derm, it, you know, and working on a bunch of songs of them. It's like, I feel like I'm supposed to be doing that. Do you get envious? I'd like to say no, but certainly, which I think is like

a lot of artists, you know, that's like an artist thing to like look at other people and be like, oh shit, they're doing this, they're doing this. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't have that, but it seems like the person who's willing to go and write with a bunch of artists that are on their, the budding part of their

career would have an insane amount of confidence. But I don't know that that's like, I don't, I think like, you know, you, both of you guys know, like you write a lot of songs. Like, you know, like, you'd love to think that you're going to get, you get up to the plate and knock it out every time. But there's plenty of times more often than not. Most times you don't. So it's like, how do you ever have the confidence? Like, you know, like, you can be confident that you're going to be a nice person and like, you're going to be a good vibe that day. But like, in terms of like saying I'm going to write a an amazing song and like it happened it's just like I don't I who has that how many songs do you write because it either either your batting average is is better than you're saying

or you're writing a lot of songs um I read I write a lot of songs I mean I read a song every day I think you do five days a week yeah sometimes four do you take some time off at all I do I take and being that I live in New York I certainly get to be like oh maybe I'll only work four days this week or I'll work three days this week. So I think that's kind of my New York is kind of my more off time and more time to like, like you said, like you said, like work with some younger artists that don't have the name yet. Your publishing company has a total of one, two writers now? Two writers. Two writers.

And the first one you sign, Amy Allen, you get this. So you get their first two cuts if this is right. And I guess I'll ask her on her episode when that happens. But, you know, her first single is Selena Gomez. And then right after that is a song. And this might be wrong, but I follow her on social media. I think she posted something where it's like, I think without you, is that what it's called?

Without you, without me? Without me? I knew it was one of those. I think without me is like maybe set the record for the longest song in the top 10 ever or like for a female artist or something like that some crazy style like that

that's your first signing. Shame on you. How do you how did you meet Amy Allen and how do you do that? Okay so I met Amy. I knew I wanted to do some type of like publishing entity. I didn't really know what it looked like.

But I honestly started it because it was, it was so tough for me to like break as a songwriter. And I saw some of you and other people like doing this kind of like sign a writer, publish them slash mentor them. And like I always wished I had that. I never had anyone to be like a legit writer to be like, oh, you should go in with blah, blah, blah. I always had, like, you know, managers and A&Rs,

but it's different when a writer vouches for you. And I almost felt like I wanted to do it, and it felt like a responsibility in a way because it was so difficult for me to break the doors down. With her, I met her through, it's funny, the same lawyer that got me that first demo deal with Warner. And I hadn't seen him.

It had to have been like eight or nine years. and he like cold called me out of the blue and he's like I found out your father passed away and I just want to say like so sorry but I'm so happy you're killing it and like I always knew like I always knew you were going to do something I told you like just to keep it going and he's like why don't you come in for you like just do a hang and I was like 100% this is the first person who like one of the first people who really believed in me so I will I'll definitely go hang played me some stuff Amy had like an artist thing that he played and he was like you could try some stuff for her artist thing.

And I was like, I don't know about her artist thing at the moment. It sounds cool, but she sounds exactly like Selena. Like at the very least, like we come in and like do some songs and like she, you know, her voice is amazing and her writing seems cool, develop a little relationship and the rest is. But how do you? I know, but how did you? I can't take credit for her writing those songs. No, of course.

Of course not. But how does somebody, you know, a lot of people ask, you know, how. How do I get music to you or to a publisher? Or, you know, how do I get songs to artists? And for her to go from being signed to you to having Selena and Halsey, maybe two of the biggest female artists on the planet, how did they get the song? Did you send it?

Did Zach send it? Your manager? I think they were a little different. I mean, the Selena one was immediately out of the gate, you know, sent around. There was a couple other writers on the song. It was sent around from the first like pass around like four or five artists want to cut it. You know, even on like the very like early stages, it was like one of those where you just like knew that like it was it was going to happen. You just had to pick the right place for it.

Yeah. That's fun. And then I think the Halsey one was Gabs, who it's a joint with APG and Gabs who's who's working with APG at the time. I think sent it to maybe. Shout out Gabs. Yeah, shout out Gabs. I don't want to say how the whole thing went down for fear of being killed. Right. Okay. So here, we're going to go to the next segment five for five.

I'm going to name a human. You can tell me in a few brief words, a word, a sentence, something. I mean, I know we've talked about him a lot, but here's your message to him. Sean Mendez. Brother. Definitely, definite brother. Emily Warren. Also, like, family. It's like genius, obviously, you know, songwriting genius and, you know, amazingly gifted, but also like a family member. Your manager is Zach Gurka.

Zach Gerka. I feel like I should talk more about Zach Gerka. He's my shot. I mean, he's the reason for everything. Best friend and also a genius, how he like kind of just makes it all happen. You know, hardworking, smart, and just good. Good. Good job. There's certain people in the business that when you talk to them,

you assume that they know more than you just by their like persona. And he's one of those guys where when he talks is just like, yeah, this guy knows the answer already. I don't know if he does or not, but my assumption is that he just most of the time actually does. But he has this like this wisdom that's really, you know. It's funny because with Zach. And here's my chance to talk about him. He has had that wisdom and confidence since the day I met him when he didn't have a thing going on.

Like he always was like, could have convinced you of anything and that he'd been like working in the music business for 40 years when like he didn't know one person. Yeah. Amazing. Let's do a, let's do Amy Allen. Also like little sister.

But it's like the same words. It's like genius. They're all geniuses. Like she's a songwriting. Hey, it says, a lot if you're surrounding yourself around these people. I mean, like, we wrote a song yesterday, and I'm just like, I get reminded.

I'm just like, you like have it. You're great, you know, like, just smart writer, just like talented. Rachel, your wife, final one. Rachel, in one word. Probably, like, my life support in a lot of ways, like the only reason that I'm, you know, more so than Zach here is because of Rachel. I mean, like she, she definitely has, you know, she stuck it out.

She was, she was down to be with me before I made a dollar. And, you know, regardless of if I would have done music or if I would have, like, gone to law school, by the way, I was never going to go to law school. I'm just saying that. Or if I was going to, like, you know, be a teacher or whatever I was going to do, she would have been down. She thinks I'm talented, but it's not really about that for her. Well, thank you for doing this.

Thank you. There are a couple of parts to this. One is that I asked you to do this probably during the first season-ish, just in passing, like, you should do this. And it's amazing what happens if you don't do this podcast and that you just wait patiently because since then you've had three more hits, a hit writer,

a number of other things that have happened just because that's the pace that you're on. So I hope I caught you early enough that we can do another one in a few years to kind of do our update. But I like that it took a while for us to actually do this.

Also, it's like, listen to your story is the closest story, a more successful version of what my journey has been. Not sure. And I think it's the idea of the search of, you know, a lot of people who are, maybe our age, you know, you're raised playing an instrument and not a computer. So the idea is like you're going to go and you're going to play You're going to play music And if you sing You're going to sing in public And you'll be the one behind the microphone

There wasn't an idea of co-writing or writing There's not a lot of information for that for our era And we all ended up touring And trying to find our footing as artists in front of other people And so to see How well you've translated your history as a writer and an artist and been able to bring that into session after session

and song after song. The reason why those songs are successful are not because of the artists. They're because your experience is in the room. Like you personally, you know, you've, those artists, you know, Sean and Chain Smokers and the Alex and the Dermits,

They don't have the wisdom, we'll say, that you know, that you've developed over these years. And for you to bring that in and so well shaped their careers is, it's just so admirable. I go and I write with a lot of younger artists, but I've never broken any of those artists. I've been a part of some of their journeys and been on some of their debut albums. But I've never been the reason why they broke. the songs that I've had that have worked have happened when an artist already has gotten in the door a little bit it's so hard

it's so hard to do what you've done and you've done it over and over again and I admire that and I watch you and you're one of those people where it's like yeah if you're in the room with them I'm like man why don't I get in the room with that because like and the answer is because I haven't done what you've done and I admire your work

and I you know obviously I'm a fan of your manager and your collaborators and your wife and you know I'm spending a lot of time in New York in the next year so it'll be fun to share that with you guys I'm looking forward to that but you know

truly I'm I'm so impressed with your path and your demeanor and all of it so thank you again for doing this. Thanks for having thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is if you want to hear music from this song

writer I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website and and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.