And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 74: Julian Bunetta

Episode Date: October 28, 2019

Our guest this week is an Ivor Award-winning songwriter, producer, and musician, who has collaborated with a wide range of artists including One Direction, Thomas Rhett, Maren Morris, Chris Brown, Jason Derulo, Fifth Harmony, Maroon 5, Big & Rich, Leona Lewis, and Little Big Town. He co-wrote and co-produced a majority of One Direction’s last three albums including the hit singles, “Drag Me Down,” "Best Song Ever" and "Story of My Life.” With Thomas Rhett he has co-written and co-produced numerous songs including his No. 1 singles “Craving You (feat. Maren Morris),” from the Grammy-nominated album ‘Life Changes’ and “Look What God Gave Her,” from the CMA Album of the Year nominated album ‘Center Point Road,’ (which he also co-produced). Additionally, he co-wrote and produced Niall Horan’s recent single “Nice To Meet Ya,” the No. 1 Top 40 single “Slow Hands,” as well as “On The Loose” & “Finally Free,” Rudimental’s Ivor Award-winning, multi-platinum single “These Days (feat. Jess Glynne, Macklemore & Dan Caplen),” Harry Styles’ “Two Ghosts,” Amber Mark’s “Put U On (feat DRAM),” Totally Enormous Extinct Dinosaurs’ “Don’t You Forget About Me,” and many more. And The Writer Is…Julian Bunetta!This episode is sponsored by BMI, ABKCO, and NSAI. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Season 5 of And the Writer is with your host, Ross Golin. Before I get my spiel, I want to acknowledge the music army that listens to this podcast every week. Since starting this, the And The Writer is community has literally changed the history of the music business by helping pass the music modernization act, gotten songwriters added to album of the year for the Grammys, and still is advocating for positive changes for our industry. industry on a daily basis. So thank you and congrats. Now, as you know, I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs. I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, Big Deal Music Publishing, and

mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear, go to our website www. And The WriterIs.com. This week's episode is sponsored by BMI. Full disclosure, Joe and I are both BMI songwriters. So we didn't write this, but we believe it.

BMI, we celebrate your talent, value your music, and champion your rights. To all our songwriters and composers, your passion is ours. BMI, music moves our world. This episode is brought to you by Abko Music, a proud independent music publisher and advocate for the songwriter and artist community over six decades worldwide. Abko is home to iconic songs and writers of the 20th century, including Sam Cook, Ray Davies, Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, and Bobby Womack,

and into the 21st century, with chart-breaking hits like Mariah Carey's We Belong Together, and more. Find out about Abko by visiting their website at www.abco.com. Songwriters, think about your favorite hit song and what makes it in Earworm. You could be the writer behind the next song,

and that goes viral. Enter their 20th annual NSAI song contest presented by Martin Guitar's End Strings, and CMT. You could win several prizes, including the one-on-one mentoring session with El King, myself, and fellow and the writer is producer Joe London. The lyric only winner will score $2,000 cash and mentoring session with award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas, as well as other coveted prizes. Send in your best songs now through October 31st at nsaI.cmt.com. Welcome to and the writer is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's

worldwide dominating multi-platinum, multi-award winning, multi-genre, bending producer, songwriter, publisher began a prodigy and has grown into a guru. He has been making records that you listen to since he was 16 years old. Since then and millions of records later, he built his company, family affair, alongside his father and brother demonstrating you can build a career not only with your family, but like a family. The artist, writers, and producers with whom he surrounds himself

are simply the nicest in the business. Some of his closest collaborators, John Ryan, Harry Styles, Nalhorn, and Thomas Wrett are notoriously the nicest. But his most impressive attribute is that he brings out the best in these already top-notch writers.

And they can and will attest to that. All the way from the middle of nowhere, Malibu, this writer is a good husband and good dad. And the writer is, the only person I've written a song with, at 4 a.m., 7 a.m., on the way back from Vegas, Julian Bonetta. That was better than I thought it was going to be. Hey, you want to Ivor Ivor Navajo. Avernevello?

Today. I did. Like today. Today. Literally today. Today. I mean, obviously, when people are listening to this and they look, they'll realize that that wasn't today. But it's today for us.

It's today for us. For those who are American listeners, explain how prestigious that award is. I don't know if I could really explain it because I just am finding out about how prestigious it is, but it's really prestigious. I think it's all the songwriting and publishing and music community. It's like their Grammys, I guess. Yeah, I mean, we don't have, you know, we have BMI and ASCAP, but we don't have a proper Grammys for songwriters. Yeah. And that's the closest thing that there is on the planet.

So to win that is an accomplishment and congratulations. Thank you very much. And they also have the awards early. So everybody afterwards has like the whole day to go out and party. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Why are you not there? Because I'm here.

And where is here? We are in Palm Springs right now. At the sixth, wait, yeah, I think this is the sixth writing camp that we've done Palm Springs writing camp. Why do you do writing camps? Well, why do we do this one? Why do I go to them? I guess either.

I mean, I guess part of me is wondering why you would, when you can get in the room with anybody. Well, here's why. the first time we ever did this it was actually sort of half a ploy to get just the ultimate Coachella house and have someone else pay for it Right

So we achieved Yeah so it was a one direction one Which you came to that was the first one I think And yeah so we'd We'd have it for two weeks right And at the end of that it would be The festival and then all our friends from L.A. would come up and stay in this ridiculous house

but it yielded just more than just songs it was just so much fun and so much camaraderie and so many intimate relationships and and we got some hits out of it too so it worked so we did again

and it worked again and now I use it also to just meet new people because it's the best way of really connecting with people I don't know and making like life long friends potentially.

Totally. As opposed to just a session one day or two days with somebody. Yeah. And I get to hit it all at once too. I get to like have meet 10 new people, you know. When I first met you, it was probably 10 years ago or something like that. Yeah. You know.

And going to your studio at the time, you know, in your house where you were at, trying to explain how when I say that you treat your career like a family I want you to explain the compound that I met you on and what's on that property and I want you to explain how familial your career is let's start from even the very beginning who your dad is and how that that happened. Okay.

dad is Peter Beneta and he is a very successful producer and writer and father and um I grew up just being interested in music and knowing how to play the drums really early and he always fostered that and pushed it and helped and supported and um even to where like when I first was learning how to use logic and he was working on a project he'd have me make a drum loop for it and like just always kept me involved i was always around grew up around the studio and just loved it and just always was drawn to it and um and then i went to college got a publishing deal like i'm kind of skipping forward but then my brother damon got out of college and he he was like, you know,

hey, should we do this? You want to manage me? He was like, yeah, let's do it. Cool. So from there is sort of where the building of the big family begins. Outside of my relationship with my dad and my brother, which we all happen to not hate each other and can work together well and can

have found a way to separate our business and our personal and like Is it hard to do? Just keep it. We worked through a lot of things, especially it was more of my dad and I. because we're so similar and we just sometimes with music see the different side of the coin from each other

and there's no really reconciling that other than one person just doing it their way. You mean musically speaking? Musically speaking. Interesting. Yeah. So it would start like with musically speaking and so we'd say get in an argument about like,

not an argument but he would walk in my room and I'd be working on something. He'd be like, wow, that's great. awesome and then be sitting there listening and viving with me and then he'd make a comment some kind of constructive comment like we all walk into each other's rooms and do something and when i'm 17 or 19 i'm not really asking for it or i don't want to i don't know so it would start there and i'd be like no i like it this one he'd be like yeah just try it and i'd be like no you know i don't want to try it like and and we'd start we'd butt hat we'd get there and then he'd be like whoa why you what's

wrong why you closed off and then i'd be like well and then it would sort of like start there and then trickle into the normal father-son dynamics that everyone might have with them and then it'd be like well you don't know so we learned how to communicate better we went to see a family business like a family business communication specialist therapist like how to delineate when somebody just wants to come in and like vent about it. about something or when they actually want constructive criticism. It's a big difference. If I just want you to listen, if I just need to vent, get something off my chest,

I don't need you to, I just need you to say, yeah, man, totally get, totally get it. Do you use that skill set, the way you communicate, I've learned to communicate with your family in a family business. Have you, is that how you communicate to other writers and artists or not really? I don't know. It's specific to it. I don't think I'm very trying to be super conscious of it when I'm like, I'm not trying to like be always sort of playing mind games

of like, okay, how do I make this approach this person the right way in a room like that? But it definitely helped. I don't know, it was good for us because just it's tough with working with your family. Some people just can't do it. And I understand why because it's just easy to butt heads. You have to be able to, everybody has to be a willing party at some point to step up and say, hey, I'm sorry, even if they were wrong.

You know, everyone has to share their load of that. Everyone has to be willing to hug and make up, and everyone has to, it's just a lot of things that go into play, you know? Well, you guys together, I mean, you started so young, working professionally. What was it like to deal with record labels and stuff like that as a kid trying to be like, no, no, no, also these masters are worthy? I mean, were they able to hear it?

not look at your age? Or did they naturally? And what was it like, I guess? Well, my dad managed me at first, and he would be the one that would, because I just want to sit in my room and, like, work on the computer. So I didn't, I wasn't like calling A&Rs at stuff when I'm 20, really, 19 really. It wasn't like, also I was sort of at the tail end of an older generation. So when I was.

that age, the A&Rs and the people that were still kind of running stuff was from a generation before. They were a lot older. It wasn't like I was running around with other 22-year-old A&Rs and managers. It was just sort of a different thing sort of. It felt like

in 2002 or something, you know? Sure. Your first I guess your first like real platinum record is the Hillary Duff stuff, wasn't it? I think that was my first I think so. It was either that or it was Little Big Town.

Really? I didn't, Little Big Town was that early? Yeah, it was at my first writing, well, my first writing camp I ever went to. Where was that? Was in Big Bear. And I was signed to Warner Chapel at the time. And a publisher named Judy Stakey put together this idea of a writing camp. And I don't know if she was the first one ever, but I was like, whoa, what's this? This is weird. I'll get to go to Big Bear for, Four days and be in a house with studio.

Like, how cool. And I met people there that I'm still friends with today, which is just off of like three days that, you know, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. So I met Wayne Kirkpatrick there. And then I went on a Nashville riding trip like a year later. And he was producing this band called Little Big Town. Shout out Little Big Town, because I'm friends with them now,

and they're the best people ever. Yeah. So we just wrote a song one day and then he said, hey, I'm producing this song, this album on Little Big Town, when we want to cut it. It was awesome. And then it was platinum.

Having that kind of success at that point, did you feel like it was going to continue to be easy? I didn't consider it success. You didn't? No. Why? What was success? I guess just having my song on the radio

and sort of affecting the lives of my peers and my friends and making one of those songs that all your friends put on when they're dancing and having fun and that like, I don't know, I think it was just having song on the radio and hearing your song and knowing that you loved the song as well, probably. What was the first song that you heard on the radio? I worked with a rapper in L.A.

And it was played on Power 106. It was called To the Top. His name was Omar Cruz. And it had Frankie J on the hook. And it was like, I think that was the first time maybe. But that was still just sort of, again, that wasn't success either because it was just sort of a Power 106 play. I grew up in the music business, right?

my dad's been in it, my attention to the details of it have always been on. I've always looked at the credits, I've always been interested to it. I've always, I've been a student, like trying to be a historian of it, basically. So that one play on the radio, didn't it? It was like, this isn't success to me in terms of the people I look up to and what I want to achieve. It's a step to it, but it's definitely not like, all right, cool, I can relax. now, fuck it. You seem to be somebody who was okay

not to, you'd be okay producing records you didn't write. You didn't always have to write the records. Totally. You weren't. That's how I started. Right. Why did that change where you started doing more writing versus Well, my first

gig, my first thing I was ever doing really to be paid in high school was I was doing demos for other writers like Tom Snow and Cynthia while and Andy Goldmark. Wow. Yeah. So they'd give me a cassette tape of them playing the song and scratching out the melody

on piano or whatever. And they weren't using Pro Tools because there was that generation gap or logic. And so I'd, for whatever it was, $350 or $500, I'd produce the demo, hire a singer. How did you meet those writers? Well, that was to my dad. He was like, he was like, hey. Give some disguise. of these people just so that...

I mean, I don't even know. Tom Snow wrote, he's so shy amongst 10 other ones, and Cynthia Weil wrote the second most performed song ever. Right? That's the second most now? Yeah. I mean, they're just like legends.

Yeah. But it was my dad. He was friends with Tom and them, and he said, and it probably happened that Tom and my dad were having lunch, and they were talking about me and kids in life, and Tom was talking about his work,

and he was saying that he maybe needs to use Pro Tools. My dad probably said, hey, you know what? My son does it. Throw him some cash and he'll fucking make you a demo or something. It must have been like in a, because they're friends, so. But pretty cool to do that in high school. Hell yeah. You do use Logic and you still use Logic.

I do. There aren't, you know, our community tends to be a lot on Pro Tools and Ableton. why have you stayed so true to logic? Because I guess well I don't know it's either because I'm lazy or because I just like the way it looks it just looks better to be honest

it's better on the eyes the other ones are ugly as fuck. It's really funny it's a really funny reason you know there's obviously obviously a switch when things when I first met you

that was right when John Ryan was graduating from Berkeley and you guys have such an intimate writing relationship mentor relationship how did you know how did you meet John

and how did you know that he was going to be this collaborator being a kid from Berkeley I didn't know I just knew at that moment at that time it felt good and it felt fun

and it felt right but like never knew or thought that oh I know that this guy is going to be the biggest writer in the world we're going to have so much success it wasn't even it was sort of just like right here this feels good this is fun

it's fun to have another friend like a playmate sort of like to so it just wasn't me by myself in nowhere Malibu making music it was like oh cool I got a buddy to like build things with

you know he moved out here and maybe like 2000 I don't know 12 or something like that 2011 something that maybe yeah it's been I think it's almost 10 years now maybe so if our intern was going to Berkeley

my brother's really good friend had a little sister who was dating John as well and the intern also knew who John was so the friend's little sister was dating him our intern had told us about him gave us a CD hey my buddy John Ryan's band's really cool listen to it was like

oh it's cool this guy's a sick musician a year later whatever six months later my brother's at a Christmas party and at the end of the Christmas party it's just like the last eight people around obviously and they're just hanging and there's this guy just crushing Beatles songs and Beach Boy songs going back and forth from guitar to piano

singing every word and just calling out requests basically of like and and just like my brother was like fuck who's this guy and he was like I'm John Ryan oh shit John Ryan I actually have your CD blah blah blah you should come over meet my brother and my dad Damon said that I didn't meet John that time that was Damon he came over met my dad he went back to school when he got back for summer he came again

he and I wrote a song the first day called Pretty Little Girl and it's still a jam and then after that we both I think we both I don't know that might have been one of the first times I just met another person that

could go toe to toe with me on everything which is there and I think he probably felt the same way because he's you know and that we both could just keep keep it there was nothing could ever get stagnant with us because we both could

pivot any way we needed to pivot and it felt that way in the room just like oh do that oh yeah and someone to say something would be like oh I totally see what you're saying we both had a lot of reference points of music and things and it was like exciting

because I was getting challenged and also it was just a good it was just fun what's the process from you know now then you're You're also a publisher. Yeah.

Did that change, you know, the way you write? Did that affect you in a way that was different than, you know, the path you had led up until there was, I'm, this is my career, my career, my career. And the minute you publish, it's our career and it's your career just as much. How did, how is that changed your writing? That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I try not to... I try to just be present in the moment

and be ready for whatever the moment's requiring of me and not sort of take a general approach over how I deal with him or whatever. Like, I don't want him... I want us to be peers always, and I want him to feel like a peer, because we are. And I don't ever want that, I don't want that relationship or any of my relationships to ever not just sort of be eye to eye.

Right. And I want to respect everybody's space of the way that they want to write and if they need my opinion. Or if I'm like, fuck you, I'm giving you my opinion, shit, we can fight it out. But not ever trying to like, you know, like, I don't know what the word is, but I don't know. It doesn't affect our writing, I don't think, because, I mean, he has more hits than me now. So I can't say anything. When I mentioned X Factor, and I know we've talked about this before, but the X Factor in the UK was the biggest show in the UK for 10 years.

And explain what you were doing for it. You know, the idea of having to produce out multiple songs every week that are master ready. Well, it's such a masterclass in composition and production. Yeah. Because you're constantly working with the best songs over and over again. So while you're producing these other things, you know, how did that opportunity come up and explain the environment? So many big artists came out of X Factor and all that.

So the first time I had, it was, I think I was with Sovin and we were writing and he was like, I think I'm going to go do be a vocal coach on X Factor. And he was telling you about how fun it is and you just are in London and he was just like made it seem like this fun thing to do. And he was like, I'm going to see if I can get them to pay you to be my vocal coach assistant. So you could just be out there with me and we can like, right and hang and they didn't bite because i obviously had no credentials and whatever and so uh he that was the year that he went and one direction was on the show and he worked with them the rest of its history with that and the next year it came and david gray publisher david gray was had just taken a job at psycho and he and i had known each other for a long time and said hey

bringing this to the U.S., do you want to do this? And at the time, I was in a weird spot in my career because I had had two artists that were signed to me to major label deals. And I was like riding high, making the records, feeling like so confident working with all, like just the coolest of the cool people. That's how we met, working on Laza.

and and then kind of they both went away both of those opportunities they just fell apart well one I don't know

just chance and circumstance let's call it but nothing ever took off with them you know and so then I was just kind of like whoa shit it was like fuck now what

And so David Gray said, hey, do you want to do this? And I just kind of, I guess, wanted to just make some money because I had spent a year or two, maybe three, working on those albums without taking any money from the record budget. Because I wanted to save it for, if like a big producer was going to do a song for it, that we had 50 grand or 75 grand to give them.

So I just didn't take any money. I just left the whatever 400,000 in the record budget and I just kept working and working and writing songs and then they both went away and I didn't make no money for two years basically so I kind of had this fuck it attitude like

fuck I'm gonna just make some money and David presented the opportunity and I was like yeah let's do it I want to do it I need something to sort of get me out of whatever rhythm I was in something to focus on because that's where I do my best I think is when I have someone or something to focus on. So X Factor comes along and it's fucking grueling. It doesn't have to be but the way

we did it was grueling. Basically the difference between X Factor and the voice and idol is that the voice and idol have a house band or they did at least. I think the voice has a a live band, right? X Factor doesn't. So X Factor, you're producing tracks for the specific moment that the artist is singing whatever song it is.

And Simon's theory behind it really is that you're A&Ring them through the whole process, you're creating a sound for them, so by the time the show's done, they have a sound and they have an identity and you know what kind of artists they are. As opposed to...

The same live band behind every... singer, you're left sort of knowing, okay, what's this person's style? What's this? Right? So every week, it would be say it's Motown week or whatever. And I have four artists that I'm doing. I'd have to produce and mix basically, you know, five, sometimes eight songs in three or four days. And they're always like, You know, it's like a, how about a Motown version of a Coldplay song? Or how about a dance version of a Beatles song? Or how about a, you know, fandom of the opera, but rock. And so it was just all this really crazy mixing up of things.

And it was just pressure cooker, pressure cooker. Because you go in on a Monday. You're like, okay, what are we doing today? Okay, here's all the songs. You have Tuesday and Wednesday to, like, produce seven things and mix them. And then so for Thursday dress rehearsal. And then in Thursday dress rehearsal, they change like, oh, you know what? This needs to be slower.

And then, oh, and Simon goes, you know what? The key's wrong. And also, can we, like, put more drama here. We slow down the beginning. And you're like, oh, fuck, okay. And then Friday is the dress rehearsal and Saturday is the show. And it makes you realize that. I mean, you can't be precious.

You have to just like focus and... Totally. It taught me a lot in that way too about... So, radio is a format, right? And TV is also a format. And so our commercials are a format. And movies are a format. And for the TV format,

it's a different thing that kind of works than radio. TV, you need sort of drama. It's like you start slow, you build to this big thing, and boom. You got two minutes. It's a different sort of theory of the way that the shows work and the singers work. So you'd be sitting in there doing a Beatles song, let's say,

and you're working through it, and then you're going, shit, this pre-sucks, let's cut it out. But in terms of like it sucks for this format that we're trying to get, we have two minutes to get this person and somehow get it back around a couple, couple times and so you'd be doing these things like you know maybe we should just chop the whole second verse and out and go straight to the bridge on this Elton John song because it just feels better for the TV for this moment wow yeah and you get into the rhythm of that or were you did you do no I did the first you did some of them I did the first two alone and then I pulled him in I think maybe I did the first three did you do it in the US also yeah I did it the US

First. First, and then I went to the UK. The U.S. was when I had Fifth Harmony and did Fifth Harmony. Whoa. Yeah. But anyways, it taught me a lot about not being precious of your own things and just being like, oh, let's just get this section out of there for whatever format you're going for.

If it's for radio, it's one thing. And format, meaning whatever the goal of the song is, If the goal of the song is to make people dance, you might want to have the drums come in before, like, a minute into the song. Or it better just fucking kill when it comes in and just don't take them out too often. Keep the drums in so people can dance.

So it just taught me a lot about trying to see the big picture of what's the goal, what are we aiming for, and let's get out of their own way. Songwriters, you could be the grand prize winner and score up to $5,000. cast one of 12 Martin guitars, as well as a mentoring session with El King, Joe London, or myself. The lyric winner will win an opportunity to be mentored by award-winning songwriter Tom Douglas as well as other coveted prizes.

Enter the 20th annual NSAI song contest presented by Martin Guitar String's NCMT, now through October 31st at NSAI.com. NSAI, the National Services Association International, is one of the biggest supporters of songwriters and played a major role in helping past the music. Modernization Act, a historical piece of legislation that allows you to have a future as a songwriter. This is your opportunity to experience industry access, one-on-one mentorship with hit songwriters, and fun your creative passions. Song and lyric-only categories are open now for submissions.

We can't wait to hear your songs. This week's episode is sponsored by BMI. At BMI, music moves their world, just like it moves mine. BMI is my performing rights organization. They're the bridge between people who create music like me and the businesses that bring it to the public. They make sure I get paid when my music is streamed on apps or shows, played on radio, at live shows, or in bars, gyms, basically anywhere where music is played. And they do this for over 900,000 songwriters, composers and music publishers with more than 14 million songs. across genres. But it's more than that. They help us navigate the music industry. They create

opportunities for aspiring writers and composers through stages at festivals, song camps, and workshops, and they connect us with the right people. They're also on Capitol Hill fighting for copyright protection and fair royalties, and they work hard to ensure the future of music. They have my back, and they'll have yours. Learn more at BMI.com. This episode is brought to you by Abko Music, a proud independent music publisher and advocate for the songwriter and artist community over six decades worldwide. Abco is home to iconic songs and writers of the 20th century, including Sam Cook, Ray Davies, Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, and Bobby Womack. And into the 21st century, with chartbreaking hits like Mariah Carey's We Belong Together and more. Find out about Abco by visiting their website at www.abco.com.

When you started getting into that, and the show is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, both here and in the UK, but specifically in the UK, did you, were you thinking about producing and writing outside of that? I mean, were you able to do anything outside of it? Oh, you mean, like in the three months that was the show? Sure. I didn't. I just dove straight in because it was so much work. Like some people that were doing it, the older guys that had been on the show before and done it,

had a musician of two on deck that could make the template here, send it to them, had a mixer, you know, and they were, obviously had to pay them, but they just knew the workforce, probably so that they could do writing sessions. I just at the time just wanted to just do it all by myself and just, I can be controlling like that. The idea of treating songwriting like a masterclass, I mean, that's our sort of philosophy with our publishing company is to try to make it give an opportunity to learn about the history of music

and how songs work in a compositional sense and in a historical sense. And to have to reproduce these classic songs often and put them in the context of something current is just in the most amazing. and you're getting paid. And you're getting paid. To get your doctorate. Totally. In songwriting, you know?

Totally. It was so fun. It really was fun. Going to the show, seeing behind the scenes, how it worked. And also affecting these people's lives. Like, I remember getting up across the table of 20 people and just scolding everybody because these five girls in this group just were so magical. and no one saw it.

And I was like, you fucking, ah, ugh. You know, and it just made, like... Do they know that? I don't know. How was your relationship with Fifth Harmony through, you know, that process? Because you're the first person to really work with them. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. How was it sort of developing that and having seen their arc and where they've gone in? individually and whatnot. You know, what's it like from your position to see something go from

a contest to, you know, that? It's amazing. And it's, but it's also, you know, there's a part of the slice of the pie that's also heartbreaking too. Which part's, uh, well, the part for, from selfish reasons that we all don't have the relationship we used to, but that just happens.

people go apart people go on do things and also that they i mean i don't know the insides of of their relationships now but when when you were in a room with those girls together it was this it was kind of the same thing i felt when i was with one direction for the first time it felt like it was scripted or something i was having i would have like sort of an out-of-body experience for a second because it felt like there was just a moment happening and everybody's timing of like the jokes

and the things that were happening it was almost like having a deja vu without even a deja vu I don't know how to explain it it was just magical it was just totally magical it's interesting your relationship with one direction is almost the

was sort of the opposite of that totally I was on the other end you're on the other end the guys who sort of developed that first sound for them you know it's like they end up coming to you and you go and take it the baton from there. Totally.

But the relationship is, it's just amazing to see the, just, it's wonderful to see your feelings and your instincts being validated, even if it's not on my, even if I didn't write the songs, but knowing that, yes, I believed in these girls, I was right. Other people around the world believed in these girls and still do. and that feeling is a whatever that feeling is that I felt

I can trust that feeling in me again if I ever feel it and I don't have to talk myself out of it I don't have to rationalize why I should just follow it and believe it because it's valid it's valid it's valid it's just as valid as anything

I remember in my 10, 12 years ago and the Jonas brothers were huge and I had a song that was with the band that was open for them. We would go and we tour and you'd realize, man, the kid and the youngest of the brothers is the

one that's writing all these songs. Like, he's gonna be huge, you know? And I just remember having this argument with my bandmate. I was like, now that kid's 16 and he's like, he's gonna be he's gonna figure it out if not right now. He's gonna be huge.

And then you see, and what's similar in those scenarios is that it's not like Fifth Harmony had hits in the beginning. like they it took a while and it would have been easy to give up on totally like I'm so you know and then so then it's almost more valid

that that it was album number three or something like that and song number 16 that went well that's why things can last because they have real foundations to be built on like when they first got off the show Simon said I'm so I was so

moved by how much you fought for these girls I want you to executive produce whatever they do and told L.A. read that and they were like, great. And they were like, cool. And the first order of business for me was we all stayed at my studio or they came over for like two weeks. And every day we put out cover songs.

I'd play guitar or piano and they'd all sing together all at the same time in one take and capture it to show that these girls can wail. They're the real deal. This is not a joke. To start there, the foundation of the beginnings of their career there

and put, there's some amazing arrangements that we'd all work through together. And if at any point, like, you know, if Normani started giggling or something, and then someone else started cracking up, we'd have to just start again.

And we'd have like, nope, we've got to do it again. we'd have to just go, come on, let's do this. And then someone would forget a thing, or I'd flub on the guitar and be like, shit. And sometimes it would take hours, but we'd just get it right, get a good take, put those out into the world, boom.

So now the first paper trail of them after that is this, and it's something that's organic and real and fun. And then it was, I think that, I don't know if any of the girls talk about this, and I'm sure they do, but, You know, being 16 in the industry and being on that cusp of adulthood, I'm sure that people can feel forced into feeling sexualized too soon by press, by whoever, by anything, by labels, by whatever.

And I wanted to, did I ever come to you looking for songs when I was first making the rounds looking for songs for them? Maybe. I don't really remember. But in any case, I wanted to really make, like, The songs I wrote for them were very just Disney teen innocence, just really, and not trying to be like, you know, you can touch me anywhere, you can, like none of that shit. And there was forces that were trying to put some of those songs

the atmosphere and it just didn't feel right for me. And I'm really proud of the first little nucleus of songs that were put out to the world because it felt very authentic to them. Yeah. Because they were still innocent and young. and not, you know, they weren't. Anyways, so that was the foundation of the way that that built, and then from there they got older and it worked.

And then, like you said, the third album in, the rocket song, just the rocket ship takes them to space, but they have this huge foundation and groundswell under them to support now all their solo careers. Those are the pillars that they're all standing on. Who introduced you to, I assume it's the same family that introduced you to One Direction, right? It's like psycho and X Factor and stuff.

Well, what happened with One Direction was when it came to the U.S., it came to the U.S. the year after One Direction 1 in the UK, that was the first year I was on it. And Tyler Brown at the time was, not the head of the label, but he was there working on the show as one of the A&Rs. And he was paired as whatever his group was,

was my group. So we started hanging out every day. just becoming friends. And at the end of the show, he said, hey, I got to make this second One Direction album. Do you want to write for it? And again, I was on my, fuck everything. I want to make some money.

So I was like, yeah. What? So it's six million albums, five minutes? Yep. I would definitely like to get a song on that. Yeah. I would love it. Totally.

So he said, okay, I got this guy that I know that I think you would really like writing with. his name's Jamie Scott. I was like, cool, man, let's do it, set it up. Let's do it. He was like, he had one on the other album. I think he had one on the first album. And I said, cool.

So he set us up a session two days. And I said, I'm going to bring John into it. And he was like, okay, whatever. And so Jamie rocks up to the house. John was a little late. He walks and he's like, I had this melody in the car on the way back from month. She goes, yeah, I'm an end in two all night.

There's something in your eyes and everything. And he's like, I don't know what to do after that, the end or whatever. And I was like, oh, I know what to do. Go, come on, come on, and Anthony, baby. We're like, cool, this is easy. And then Jamie was like, oh. And then it just was like, we were all just in it together. Yeah.

And it was so fun. And so we wrote that song, Come on, Come On, was like the first one we attempted to write for them, which was a fun thing. And then the second day, we wrote, here's a nice little story. Oh, we might have to edit this, I'm going to tell it. So, well, fuck it.

My neighbors, some of my family's very close friends, her name's Suez Randall and her daughter, Holly Randall, and they're the top of the porn industry. Suez Randall is a legend in pornography. Anybody who likes porn, look her up. She is incredible. And there are neighbors. And it just so happened that the second day Jamie was there,

my parents were out of town. They're in Santa Barbara or something. And Sue's asked, or Holly asked, if they could shoot at my parents' house. So my parents were like, yeah, go ahead. He's a house. And so the way the layout is, is you've been there.

The house is on one side of the driveway and the studio is on the other side of the driveway. So we're all in there, and I tell Jamie that, hey, guess what? You're not going to believe this, but there's a porn being shot right over there at the house. And he was like, no fucking way, whatever. It's kind of too far to see detail, but it's still close enough to see shapes, right? And so we're sort of out there trying to get a peek through bushes. but...

In your own house. Well, no, we were at the studio. Sure, but I mean, it's like... Totally, but you didn't want to walk up there and just be like, what's up? You know? Like, it's... Need an extra?

Right, right. So we're just kind of trying to be respectful of the girl's... The girl was doing a solo scene, I think, near the piano, if I remember correctly. And we didn't want to just... We wanted to give her space. So we were, like, peeking through bushes

and, like, standing on the stairs in the studio, to catch an angle and like see what the hell was going on like little kids and after that we wrote a song about it called She's Not Afraid and that's where the song She's Not Afraid comes from was about this girl

she's not afraid of all the attention she's not afraid of running wild and then was why she's so afraid of falling in love whatever that didn't apply to her but that's what was this maybe that was the that was the dirty secret behind the writing of that song.

Crazy. Yeah. Did you play them for the boys or you played him for Tyler? How did they... First played him for Tyler. Tyler played him for the A&R, or Sunny and for Simon. They really liked them. Those two songs.

And so we flew to London to cut those two songs at the Wendy House in London. And it just was kind of a love affair, I think. at least that's what I felt. John and I are pretty fun young guys. And so we all sort of were peers and friends and just dicking around like we were

18 years old and just hanging out and like and then we just, I don't know, I think we all felt a really fun connection. The pressure they had to have a follow-up hit I imagine was

really palpable. I was, you know, would assume, you know, because their first hit was so big. Yeah. Did you know that, I guess story in my life was second, right? The third album was, it was on the third album, but the first one was best song ever off of that. Best song ever.

For the movie, yeah. And those things start to react and there had to be like some relief. Well, you want to hear another crazy story? Yeah, of course. Okay. So after those first songs, that we wrote for the Take Me Home album, it was great. And then the boys, I guess, wanted to start writing more.

And they enjoyed us. Did they have a hit off of the Take Me Home album? Little Things was off of there. I mean, I think, you know, what's a hit? Right. But as far as like a top five radio hit, no. Not off that album, I don't think. Or maybe actually, I think I'd take that back.

I think the first single, went to like debut was like number two on billboard the first week but I don't think it was like a actually then actually Savin said that it gets synced a whole load it was a big song but not on the level of did you what makes you beautiful or did you guys like there was sort of Saab and Rami and Carl doing their music and then you and John and Jamie doing your music with this same band

right that's sort of on the second album like Sovin heard the songs we did and also signed off of them and suggested little tweaks and stuff like that. Sure. The third album, I think is when Sovin had his first child. And I think, I mean, I can't speak for him, but I think he, I don't know. He just, I don't know why they all didn't go back in and write on the third album. But for whatever reason, when we got the call to do it, I was like, yeah, I'll come to London. Let's do it.

I want to have John come out too. And not to put anything on blast, but they're like, well, I don't know if we're going to buy his plane ticket. So I was like, all right, fuck it. I'll buy his plane ticket and we'll share a room. And so we shared a room. We went to Jamie's studio. And in the first five days, we were there for a week.

We were there for six days. And the first song we wrote was a song that was a bonus cut called, maybe I should pull up my references. But the second song we wrote was Story of My Life. The third song we wrote was Midnight Memories, which was the title of the album. The fourth song we wrote was You and I, which was the third single. The fifth song we wrote was Best Song Ever and a Missing One. We wrote all in that first four, five days.

we were all the singles. We were all the singles off the first four, just one after another, boom, boom, boom, boom. Did they reimburse the plane ticket? When you guys, that... That was magic. They were touring around the UK and a lot of... I flew out and toured with them for like 10 days.

I think I was in the room with them once out of the 10 days. Yeah. Like, I didn't understand what was happening. I just remember being in these hotel rooms that we'd go to these hotels that are an hour away from what, town or city.

Yeah. Because they're trying to hide. Totally. And these, they wouldn't tell anyone. And you can't. And there's somehow, some,

there'd be fans would figure it out. And it'd be, how do you know we are not even near the venue just such a crazy experience. But what makes me, at that era, all I think about is how you guys would be traveling around the world with them.

Yeah. That must have been kind of after this album, working on the next album. It was working on Midnight Memories is when we started touring on the road with them and finishing stuff. Yeah, and you got, I mean, all over the world. Yeah, that was the rhythm. It was

we'd, February, we'd write in the UK for a bunch of weeks, three weeks, then we'd go back home and produce stuff, then we'd fly out on the road, cut vocals, then we'd go back to London, do another round of writing, producing, cutting vocals on the road, and then September hits, we're in mix, October hits were an X factor January hits take a month off

February hits again go to London for a month start the next album it was like this three year cycle of that did you have any personal life no right during that could you

fuck a personal life we're traveling around the world with the biggest band there is in exotic cities with your best friends my brother would be out there like it

that is the was the most fun you could ever have. I remember you guys were playing with, I think you guys were in Brazil and one direction's opening for Eddie Vedder. Eddie Vedder's opening for that. Oh, I got a story for you. And I just remember hearing that.

Can I tell you the story about how my career almost was just over forever, I think? Yeah, please. So we're in Brazil at the top of the Fasano Hotel and we're throwing it there's a party that everybody's throwing for the band for crew for everyone there's a lot of crew on the road with them you know that are behind the scenes so it's a bunch of people up at the rooftop it just so happens that like the surfer kelly slater is doing a surf tournament there and so is eddie vedder just happened to be there so they're there randomly and nile came up to me and said hey i want to play eddie some of the tunes from the new record it's like go oh, I'll go get my iPod. Got my headphones.

And this is in April, I believe. And so a lot of the songs didn't, had some of the boys' vocals on it. A lot of John was still on there. Some verses weren't right. Some choruses were still being worked on. But we had kind of the 10 songs for the album. We had, like, here's the album.

And they don't release the album until November. So I go get my headphones, I give them to Nile, and the party's happening, and I'm taking shots of tequila and probably everything else and having a really fun night and go to bed and wake up in the morning and we leave Brazil, I mean, we leave what city of Rio, and we go to Sao Paulo. And I'm looking for my iPod because I want to listen to it on the plane and I can't find my iPod. and there were also a lot of other people up at the rooftop it wasn't just crew there were women there as well

because the boys always want to have some beautiful women around so there were Brazilian you know beautiful women around and Brazil is notoriously what where things get leaked out of like the most like it seems like musically like Brazil somehow has found a way to always get their hands on a copy of their records first and leak them. So I'm freaking out. I'm like, okay, it was sitting on a couch.

Somebody picked it up. Saw the first playlist says one new 1D album 2014. It goes, holy shit. Let's, I'm going to just put this online. And I'm freaked out because I'm like, okay. So I like email everybody at Psycho and say, please, attention digital team, if any of these titles pop up online, please shut them down. And we leave Sao Paulo, or we leave Rio. I can't find my iPod still. I ask Nile's security.

He said, yeah, I gave it to you last night. I'm like, what? I really? I must have been drunk. I don't remember. Uh-oh. And I remember, okay, I'm going through them. I'm like, what did we do last night? And I'm like, oh, yeah, we went to Eddie Vedder's room. we were like playing songs hanging out the security team calls his security team can't find it

we turn the hotel upside down no one can find this iPod and I'm just four days go by and I'm just like devastated I just really thought

that these all 10 this whole album is going to leak with half of John's vocals on it like you know and parts of the songs that aren't aren't even great yet and bad productions, just rough productions.

And it's going to ruin my career. Psycho will never hire me again. All my peers are going to fucking laugh and be like, you fucking idiot. Like you had the world in your hands and you blew it. You know, and I'm just so not in my stomach. And we get home, seven days later, we get home to L.A. and we get a package from Eddie Vedder. And we open it up and it's his ukulele book in the iPod.

And it says, I hope the music sounds a little bit sweeter now. Amazing. Eddie Vedder saved my career. Thank you, Eddie Vedder. That is the greatest Eddie Vedder shout out ever. I mean, it's incredible. John had been texting with him, so they were just talking about stuff.

And he happened to find it under the bed at his room somewhere and asked for John's address and then sent the book with the iPod. Amazing. I mean, Eddie Vedder saves your career. That should be the name of your biography. It's like Eddie Vedder saved my career,

the story of Julian Benetta. Okay, so, you know, the next album comes out, massive sales. The four album? Yeah. just crazy sales and then perfect comes out which

that was written at Palm Springs Writing Camp oh it was the nucleus of it started at the first one yeah I guess I came the wrong day made in the AM is you know the first one with the band

without Zane yep that's my only one D cut is on that album which one was it if I could fly Thanks. It's pretty excited about that.

But it's weird. You know, when you're writing songs, I'm the guy who gets one song, maybe two songs on the albums I work on. And, you know, it's just sort of random one-offs. And here you are with nine of ten songs, 12 of 14 songs. You hone in on the artist's sound

and you really become such an interesting. part of their career. Even when they split up, you start working with Nile and slow hands becomes just massive. But it's a song that's not like every other song on the radio.

How do you have confidence releasing songs and working on songs and staying in your own lane in a way without having to appropriate what everyone else is doing. I think just experience at this point, at that point, whatever, that was last year, whatever. I got my first publishing deal

when I was 18, and then I'm 16 years in to doing this every day. Pick up a few, like, tricks from other people and the way other people's paths and watching how other people's careers have worked and being a historian of the music biz of my music in my lifetime, you just sort of historically look at things that,

I don't know, it just, I don't know, who knows? You just fucking, you take a swing and you try something, but I do feel like I do have a lot of knowledge and history to back up. The reasons I made some of those decisions, and we made some of those decisions in that song, were for the reason of that I just was more experienced, more confident, trusted myself more

you know. Yeah, I mean, my perception of you is that you have no FOMO, but I guess that's probably not correct, right? It's definitely not correct, but I can manage it really well and I try to,

and I can get lost in whatever moment I'm in and not be thinking about other people's moments. I can definitely, whatever moment I'm in, just be there and be present in it and make it a moment that I want to be a part of. You don't know. know this because you're facing me, but behind you, your co-writer just showed up and then up for that song, Ruth, and you know, you have explicit who's putting his face in the window.

You've had Teddy Geiger put her face in the window. You've had like, throughout this interview, I'm like trying to like focus, but there's like a list, monsters and strangers. Like literally, just the people who've since we've been doing this have put, you know, their face and they're trying to make me laugh and I'm just like okay no stay focused bro I got you so yeah I've been thinking about sort of my style of production because when I always producers that I've followed and admired had styles and then some almost didn't and like the Neptunes it was a style timblin had a style then they could switch up their style but for a time they had a it was a

style and they were they were the artist yeah absolutely you know as much as the artist was they were at least as much absolutely and then if you go back sort of further there was a lot of producers that because they were using different musicians and different textures and sounds sort of you couldn't you wouldn't know that oh yeah that definitely sounds like a so-and-so production because it was just like their fingers weren't on the drum pads. Yeah, they were using musicians and different mixers and different things. And I don't, I mean, you would know better. I've always wondered if I have a sound.

Well, I mean, that's what I'm saying. In the slow hands thing, there's more of a sound in your songwriting, whereas like one of your best traits as a producer is that you don't step on the toes of the song which is... That's what I try not to do. Which is a really good songwriter

and also like vocals are super present in the songs that you do where it's like it's... You never step on the vocals and... And I think I might know... Oh, yeah.

I think it's hard to tell when I know it someone. one versus not, but looking at it, trying to look at it objectively, I think that there's something with those songs that we've named so far

that sound like those artists which is such a compliment, but that's your style. Absolutely. Is to not be is to not step on their toes and also to write, you know, and I'm

I'm sure that you guys as a writing team of sorts have such a style to me. Nice. I think more as writers in a way than a producer, I can see the, you know, I can see the through line. Because you're writing songs that are actual, you know, in a way more classic in their structure.

There's like a real homage to different eras in the writing. So it doesn't feel like it's, There was something I think we've talked about in another episode, but the idea that if you take an account, this is an Atlantic writing camp so we can take the time. But Pete sent me this article, Pete Gambark sent me this article where it was showing the variety of music that's successful right now. And that literally because people fly sessions drums that they have in an approachal session to the next session, they move things around. but we're all using the same sample packs on the same site and we're all, you know, the template is literally what you start from often. So songs right now are just not varied.

Totally. And so, but yet you struggle writing the same song over and over again. Totally. That is not your forte. Like your songs all sound different from each other. Tight. You know, so you're, you know, you're leading the way with that. Let's go with Thomas Rett, who's now become a big, you know, collaborator of yours.

How did you meet him and explain how close the Thomas Rett family is to yours? Well, my beautiful, stunning, smart, compassionate, lovely wife and mother of my child is his manager and has been his manager for, I think they're maybe going on 10 years now. Cool. And I actually met her before that in Nashville when I was doing a lot of Nashville stuff a bunch of years ago. We met just randomly. She was working with someone I was working with

and we happened to go get a dog collar at Walmart together for John Rich, who his dog got out of his house. So she was like, I'll get your dog collar. I'll go with you. And that was it. And then got a dog caller. and then here we are married with

the kids later and she was married at the time and we didn't talk we didn't see each other with 10 more years and we were reconnected but anyways she manages him

and so that's how I get my cuts I just sleep with the artist manager you guys have had you know obviously a lot of success in the last couple years together you guys being the whole team

are you feeling pressured to write primarily in country when you start having that kind of success in country I mean obviously you've worked with a lot of country artists but considering that your first song is you know that we're talking about is a little big town and then fast forward 10 15 years and you have all these

number one songs now at country and you're working with Marin and you're working with you know all these country people I don't know why it's just a balance yeah You know, because just like anything, no matter what you do, there's always going to be something else that's appealing.

So if I can find the right balance of, if I get burnt out here, I can go hang with the best writers over there and get re-inspired and taught a few new lessons and be like, oh, yeah, okay, cool. And then bring those tricks over here and just kind of cross-pollinate. And I don't know. Your greatest song that you've ever worked on is hoodie, because I work on that.

Yeah. Is that our only song we've had that's been released, at least both of our names drawn? I didn't really write that. I wrote like a line. Maybe. I mean, we have that and then I guess Blueberry Pies didn't really come out.

Yes, hoodie. But that might be, yeah. I mean, I don't think we've done that many sessions. You're right. The sessions we have done have been, like you said in the intro. Yeah. And they're also like... Can we talk about our first session together?

Yeah, you should tell it from your perspective. I feel like I don't think I've told it, but it's... I'll tell it. So Mike Karen, shout out to Mike Karen, for putting me in Ross in touch. And he said, I think you should write with this guy, Ross. He's got the song called Blueberry Pies, and I think it would be perfect for your artist. I said, cool. So let's have a session.

And the day before the session, I think I called you. I was pacing around outside. And I called you and I said, hey dude, how are you doing? Excited to work with you. Are you down to come over tomorrow and then let's just go to Vegas and then we'll come back

and then we'll write the next day? And you were kind of like, yeah, man, sure. You're like, yeah. I think I called you the day before. I'm not sure. Because when you tell you, you showed up at the studio. I don't remember you came up, But when you say that, that sounds familiar-ish.

So let's pretend I didn't do that. For stories' sake... Maybe it was even just in case we go to Vegas, bring something. And I was like, not sure. I don't think we had established if that was going to happen. Right. So Ross gets to the studio. We say our hellos for five minutes.

And then we're like, all right, cool, let's go. The car is in the driveway waiting. So eight of us pile in to the suburban or whatever. and our driver takes us to Vegas and we're just hanging out, having fun, we go. I don't know if you remember this, but we met the fat Jew that night. We did.

I do remember that. Because this was probably 5 in the morning or something. And he took his pants off and stood on the top of the bar seating area and we got kicked out. All of us said, thank you. He got kicked out. That I don't remember. I think that's what happened. That sounds right, though.

I do remember meeting him. I also, I mean, I think I was pretty intoxicated. And then we at 7 a.m. got driven home, and then you started to write Sunrise about our experience in Vegas, real-time art, you know, and then we finished it there. We ordered some pizza. And then... I just remember I was taking a nap when we got back because we didn't go to sleep that night. We went back, woke up from the nap, and then we recorded the song. that we wrote in the van.

In the van on the way home. It's still a really good song. It is. It's really... That was an experience where I learned that you have to live to write about something authentic. Yeah.

And I was so impressed with the fact that you were like, no, let's all go. Let's do this. This is going to be a fun night. And it's just, okay, let's see what happens. Yeah. Walk through doors. You know, just see you...

see you just see what's on the other side of this and just say yes and let it go and you know and then once you do that kind of experience I've now we're good for life totally because we've done that we've gone to like this weird the most incredible like session battle together totally you know and those are the most important and interesting things for me when I was first writing when I first got my publishing deal there wasn't anyone my age that I was working with. I was writing with incredible huge writers, but they were

40 and had kids and I didn't, and then all the sudden this right now there's such a thick, palpable friendship and unity between the songwriting, in the

songwriting community and it's so amazing to have and to see and I think that slowly all writing camps maybe were a big part of it, not mine, but everybody's that have ever been in this time, to bring us all really to a real intimate

friendship basis for that. And it's so incredible to have watched it sort of all come together. And managers be like hanging with each other and doing business together and also vacationing together. And songwriters just having just, I don't know, it's just bigger than a job, really.

I think some of that's probably a response to our business being so digital. You know, because there was a world where producers would have session players, and those session players were part of the conversation. Yeah. You know, there was a world where writers would all write in the same building because that's where the studio was or that's where the piano was. And, you know, people shared some location. And I think we all naturally crave that.

Yeah. But it takes people to lead in that for, you know, to keep that conversation going. Yeah. All right. Next segment. Next segment. Five for five. I'm going to list five things and you tell me the first thing that comes out the top of your head.

Let's start with John Ryan. Smiles. This will count as one, but go through the five one direction guys. you spent so much time with them. Okay. You call out a name. Harry. Harry, laughter, and just screll.

It's a word we created called screll. I like that. Definitely goes through my head. Harry's so nice. Do you know what screll is? No, what is that? I'll tell you after the name. Okay.

Nile. Nile. Grounded, pure, honest. Zane. Zane. Mysterious. Just so talented. Deep.

He's a deep, he's a deep guy. Louis. Funny. Louis. And just, and, and, I know, I got so much love for these guys, like, like, brothers. So, everything you're going to say about them, I'm just going to say something that, just is so nice. But I think that's the, you know,

that's the, that's what it's supposed to be. Yeah, totally. Louis is just, I mean, and, and, yeah. Liam. Liam, I think of, I think of, I think of, I think of just him, the fact that, just, again, a lot of love, he, he bought a house right next to our house. That's so good. Which was so awesome. and I'd be working and just see him walk by the door

and be like, nope, what are you doing and crash my sessions? It's awesome. So weird. Family for all of them. Definitely the word I would want to throw out there to all of them if they listen to his family. Casey Robinson, speaking of family.

Casey Robinson. What's the word when someone's very thoughtful? Thoughtful. Thoughtful and calculating, but in a thoughtful, thoughtful calculations. Like, great understanding the roots of who someone is and who someone else is and why they'd be a good pairing and why their styles might work together, I think. Peter Benetta. Peter Beneta is everything.

Everything. Damon Beneta. Damon Beneta is even more of everything. Best friend. Damon Beneta is my... my best friend and yeah everything well thank you for doing this podcast thank you for having me i was always wondering when i was going to get the call yeah i should have been first man yeah exactly um what's advice you'd give to someone you know a new writer a new writer i would say

you don't give up and if you're going to you know if you're really a writer you're going to write so you're going to do you're not going to have to say oh I should write more

if you're really a guitar player every day you're picking up the guitar if you're really a basketball player every day you're playing basketball there's nothing that's going to stop you doesn't mean you have to make money from it you do it whether you made money or you didn't

and you have to be diligent, you have to be smart, you always have to learn and try to be better and just don't be too down on yourself, but also don't gash yourself up too much and try to stay even and try to just work hard and learn. Yeah. Learn. I always think that when someone is, you know,

there's this idea that people are only as successful as the day you meet them. You know, it's like, when I met you, you had, you seemed to have everything figured out to me. Like, I hadn't, I was just getting into the writing for other people. And even though you're younger than I am,

I think of you as being like this, that you're older in spirit and in the way that you treat, the community around you is this writing camp is multi weeks with a lot of a lot of personalities a lot of personalities and everyone's looking up to you

and that's you know and that's not a some weird like I'm not qualifying it I'm just telling you how it is that everyone looks to you even Dan Wilson and I were talking this morning at breakfast that you came in

yesterday and you had a note on the song and the whole room shifted to having a new energy and objective to finish the song and people look up to you because your experience is so vast and your your knowledge of music is so vast but the way you treat fellow musicians and writers is a way that all of us should run our businesses. We all want, and when I said, I wasn't, you know, I said it in the intro, but it's not, it's not just that you work with family,

but this business that you have, this career that you have is so genuine family from the people around. you. So I don't know how to compliment that more when that's the kind of, that's my goal is to run my life the way you run yours. So I, you know, thank you what. Thank my dad because my dad I basically learned how to mentor from my dad because my dad mentored me as a, as a producer, as a man, as everything. And he just was the best dad. You can. to ever ask for ever and like people are like

dude your dad's so awesome and I hear that all the time but it's just like fuck I'm gonna cry yes you did it he's just so he just gives so much so

so that's how I learned for him to how to just love people and like give your energy and just you know you we all need mentors i had so many great mentors from from savin to steve kipner to just people that that just along the way just you get to ride in the car with for a little while and like when you get out just are a little smarter a little wiser have a bit more perspective on your own life, treat people differently.

Just a lot of, you know, I mean, we're all mentors. You're, dude, you're everywhere, you know. But I think that having for young riders as well, have mentors, find good mentors, it's tough. And there's going to be a lot of people that think they're your mentor and then might try to take from you. My dad always says it's not who you know, it's who you avoid. Because you can know everyone,

but if you know the wrong person, they might waste three years of your life and get into something. But, yeah, mentors, I don't know. That's how I, that thing you said to me is like the best compliment you could ever give to me. Like beyond any, like, song or whatever. That's like, that's the goal for me, for sure.

Well, now we have a new concept for our song today. Actually, what was it that you were saying right before? I mean, you know. I hate, well, you hate concepts. I hate when people use the word concept out of context. I'm saying, I got this idea. Instead of saying I got this idea, there you go, so, okay, so the hook is going to be like,

I love you, you didn't love me. And then someone will be like, okay, well, what's the concept? Like, the guy got left by the girl? Or what's the, that's not a concept. It's not, like, stop using the word concept in the wrong context. it's just like if you wanted to say love is a reverb okay there's a concept I just feel like I mean maybe I have it wrong too

you know what that's actually probably that's like the advice that you give a writer where it's that thing like you know best advice you can give a young person in L.A. is take fountain take fountain yeah nice you know so it's just a easy thing

forget about concepts stop See the word of concepts. Yeah, I'm that note. Perfect. All right, thanks, man. Thank you. That was awesome. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by my, Miles Berg's mom and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silverstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.