And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 84: Nicolle Galyon...Stays At Home

Episode Date: April 28, 2020

This Season 2 guest is a mother, singer, songwriter, producer, label head, and BMI Country Songwriter of the Year winner from Sterling, Kansas. Since we last spoke to her, she launched her label, Songs & Daughters, an imprint of Big Loud (which will soon have a publishing division). The company is dedicated to signing female artists and nurturing both the art and the artist. She also co-wrote the No. 1, 4xPlatinum single “Tequila” by Dan + Shay, which won the GRAMMY Award for Best Country Duo/Group Performance. The song also won Single and Song of the Year at the CMA’s and BMI’s Country Song of the Year. Many of her songs have been recorded by Florida Georgia Line, Miranda Lambert, Luke Bryan, Camila Cabello, Kenny Chesney, Thomas Rhett, Keith Urban, Lady Antebellum, Lee Brice, Kelsea Ballerini, Raelynn, Walker Hayes, Martina McBride, among others. And The Writer Is… Nicolle Galyon!Please join us to help keep the music community alive and thriving, giving it as much as it gives us. To donate or to apply for assistance visit the MusiCares COVID-19 Relief Fund site: https://www.grammy.com/musicares/get-help/musicares-coronavirus-relief-fundWatch this video interview on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/andthewriteris or on Instagram at @andthewriteris Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, we are doing a few updates here with our alumni who we love dearly. And we hope all of you guys are staying healthy, safe, and staying at home during this quarantine. And hope you enjoy listening to a few of our previous guests telling you what's been going on in their life since they did their interview. Here are some updates for the quarantine versions. of Anne the Writer is. Welcome back, Nicole Gallian-Claussen. Hi, Ross. It has been a couple years and a crazy couple years

since the last time we talked to you. Obviously, right now is a crazy time in general. But, you know, tell me some things. How are you? How's your family doing? They're great. We're like everybody else just, I guess we're like everybody else in that we're quarantined.

but we're probably not like everybody else and how we're doing it. Why is that? Well, because we built a house in my hometown in rural Kansas, this little town called Sterling a couple years ago. Actually, I guess we were like four years ahead of the quarantine curve because about four years ago we were like, let's build a house. We're literally right next door to my parents. That gray house out the window is my parents' house.

Oh, nice. And we normally spend the summers here with the kids, give them their sand lot summer, or we go to the public pool and all that. But we always joke that, like, if the world was ending, we would come to this house because it always feels like you're kind of safe out here. It really is, like, the epitome of social distancing. Like, that's all you do in a small town is social distance.

So we packed up the, like, we literally just rented an SUV, packed up a couple, suitcases and drove here as soon as all this started going down and we've been here for almost three weeks and we're homeschooling here and I guess I mean we're kind of just living our life in the middle of Kansas now. I feel like you've always been really good at balancing career and home life. Maybe that's just you know watching you on social media and whatnot but It always feels like you have a grasp on there's work time and there's family time and something maybe they're even together sometimes. But how are you, how do you balance everything?

Well, hmm, I don't know. I never really know how to answer that. But I do feel like we're in a good flow. In this particular setting, it takes more teamwork than ever between my husband and I, between Rodney and I, because we're used to just getting in the car at the same time and leaving and going to work at the same time every day. And that's not on the table. Only one of us can work at a time because we don't have child care. We don't have any help. So the way that we're kind of doing it here is I'm homeschooling in the morning.

And that's kind of Rodney's time to kind of chill or do what he wants to. do with his day and then when I've done homeschooling we kind of switch and either he can do a right or or he might take the kids and I'll do meetings but it's it's very much tag team it is very much like a game of ping pong or tennis it's like your turn my turn your tune my turn but we're both so independent and have been so independent in our careers that it's been And I've noticed that it's been like a new thing for us to really have to work together this much inside our home. To, I mean, every little thing that I commit to, whether it's a Zoom meeting or even a phone call with my girlfriends, I'm having to run everything by him so that he can keep the kids. And that's not normally the case in real life.

So we're being, we're being stretched, I think, more than ever. Yeah, it's fascinating now. I mean, I think that's sort of what all of us are going through is, you know, how do you find, how do you find yourself when you're not, when there's no alone time kind of thing, you know? Do you do you have the creative capacity to write when you're not able to leave your home? To be honest, I haven't been writing. And it's not, well, first of all, I just was like, I need to get. I need to learn how to be a homeschool teacher. How do you learn to do that?

Well, you take, sorry, my phone is going off. You take, first of all, you take the teacher's leads at school, and they kind of give you, like, your marching orders of, like, this is what you need to do in a day. But really, it feels like, for me, it kind of feels like I'm 10 years old again, lining up my dolls and playing school and going, okay, kids, is what we're doing. but now we're a couple weeks into that so I completely cleared my writing calendar

when I found out that we would be remote schooling and not just well first of all my family comes first like if I'm put in a position to have to choose like they're always going to come first but I'm slowly starting to add in like a lot of work stuff I have a lot of things I'm doing outside of writing that require a lot of anything that's team oriented where someone else is relying on me, I'm still trying to fulfill those commitments. Like on my label, I'm working

on a podcast, a scripted podcast, some things like that where other people are still hustling. I'm not just going to piece out on them, but writing doesn't really affect anybody but me. So I haven't been writing. I'm going to try a couple next week and we'll see how it goes. But I've definitely, to to your question about creativity, I've noticed that when I'm not writing, I just like funneling more of my creativity into the homeschool stuff, which I know sounds kind of silly, but I found myself like on the floor making posters and schedules

and laminating things. Like no one asked me to do that, but I think I had like built up, like there's just a certain amount of creativity that we all need. And I was like coloring block letters and doing, this whole, you know, these binders for the kids and without even thinking, knowing that it was even part of it. So, so I'm kind of having fun observing myself. Oh, I'm sure. Well, speaking of observing yourself, before we get to your label, because that's super exciting,

you know, just to touch on some of the stuff that's gone on for you, you've, you've had, um, Keith Urban, you had a song nominated for the ACMs for Song of the Year. You know, you've had obviously a number of big cuts, but I think clearly what's going on with Dan and Shea and Tequila and some artists that you were intimately close with, like Ray Lynn and whatnot, to see how many songs have come out since the last time we've met. How has this whirlwind been to go from, you know,

you're a hit writer to having a number of number one songs where you're probably starting to lose count and, you know, going to the Grammys and all of the things that last time we spoke, it was difficult because automatic, I think, had come out and you weren't able to celebrate all the things that went on with it. And this time you really got to celebrate.

Tell me about the, I mean, it was fun to watch you celebrate, but, I mean, come on, this is incredible. This is a crazy few years for you. So tell me about all of it. Man, I don't even know where to start. I'm such a, I'm such a, like, reflective, nostalgic person. And anytime I get a chance to stop and be still, which is what we're doing right now,

I can't help but always look back and see all the things that led to this. And I was even just thinking since we've been here about how, how I grew up saying that if I ever had a hit, I wanted to build, I wanted to use the money to build a house in my home. town or buy a house or something and I was out this week on a run here in sterling and I was like wow if I could just tell my anger self that hey it all works out like in 2020 you're going to need to like escape from the craziness in the world and songs are going to basically buy you the privilege to get to come back here and bring you bring your family and you know and the whole

thing. So I've been very reflective. But the last few years have been like, it's been a lot of things that I never knew to dream, dream about. To be honest, there's all, you know, there's those things for all of us writers that we want to cross off the list, like having a number one or being nominated for a big award or something, but there have been a few things that I, to be honest, like triple play award or winning BMI writer winning song of the year. I always just thought, I don't know why

I thought this, but I always just thought the biggest dream was to just be nominated for song of the year. I didn't, I don't know why I never allowed myself to consider more. But the last few years in particular have shown me that there were a lot of things I didn't consider for myself, including starting the label,

I'm sure we'll get to that later, but... Why didn't you consider yourself eligible for all those things? Part of it's probably, like, and I think we even talked about this last time, that I did this and this was so long ago, but it's so deeply ingrained in me to not feel entitled to anything. That was such a like Midwest, you know, like always stay grounded mentality, but some of the, sometimes you can take that too far and it can turn into like, I don't get too big for your britches, don't start assuming that, that you, you know, that you've, that of all the, of all the

people in the world, that you should get to experience that. And I don't even know that years ago, I could have articulated it in those words, but I think that was like a pretty deep internal voice for me. And also, I think they're just, I know this is such a tired conversation, but it's a factual one. I just didn't have a lot of numbers-wise. I didn't have a lot of women to look to in my growing years that were doing a lot of those things. A woman isn't writing writer of the year every year.

And namely, a lot of writers weren't moms. And I think when I became, when I chose to, start my family. I think I kind of tempered my expectations and was like, oh, just stay in the game. Like my goal that I set for myself was just stay in the game. That was my realistic way of balancing home life and work life was going, okay, just do enough so that you can stay in it. But you won't probably be a great mom if you set your goals way, way, way up here because you'll lose track of what's going on at home. And what's been really beautiful is that I can now, in hindsight, look back over the last,

you know, seven years of being a mom and go, wow, like, I even get emotional thinking about it. Like, you didn't think that you could have all of these things at the same time. And they have come in their own time. And they have worked together. My home life and work life have worked together. I mean, my kids have definitely. giving me permission to say no to a lot of things that I probably otherwise would not have

had the strength to say no to. And that was a good exercise for me. When you have, you know, I would assume that when you have a run as a writer, that it is intentional and that you go into this, I'm going to focus on writing hit songs. And yet, it seems like the more you lived your life and you let it be like, well, my job is a to stay in the game, but really my first job, like you said earlier, is my family, that that's when a lot of the good things start happening as a writer. And, you know, some of the other people that we've, you know, caught up with recently, you know, J-Cash and, you know, talking to people like Ryan Tetter, that a lot of their career really took off once they had kids, you know, that there was this,

there's almost this, I don't have kids. So I don't know if I, if that's correct, but it almost allows you, like you're saying, you say no to certain projects, so you wouldn't otherwise. But something about the writing made you a better writer, you know, or maybe not a better writer, just what happened? What goes on in your psyche that changes the game from being, I'm going to stay in the game to being songwriter of the year? Well, I think, I think for me, for me to leave my house every day,

and to say this is big picture. This isn't like on a daily basis, but I think I just became a lot more creatively efficient. And I think by efficient, I mean, like I had definitely had to change my metric. Like I still to this day don't wake up and go, oh, my job is to write hit songs. Like I don't claim to know how to do that.

And that's not even really my goal. My goal, because I can't control that, you know, but what I can control is like if I change my metric to something that I can control then I can feel really good about myself at the end of the day and the way what I mean by that is

if I say my goal for today is to make something that I'm proud of and I just do that every day I think I'll end up having hit songs that'll be a byproduct of it but I won't be held prisoner to the way of our business

where everything's out of your control Because if my goal is to only write hit songs, it's like, well, maybe a couple times a year will I ever have a day where I get it right, you know? So I've really changed the way that I've gone about that. Sure. Speaking of leading the way for women in our business, starting a record label, and certainly one in Nashville, for seems complicated when Nashville radio's famous. for being misogynistic and not having it. It's not really a fair playing ground for women.

And it's been nice to seeing some of that tide turns starting to turn in the last few years. But of all the things that are happening, there are very few industry, you know, songwriter industry professionals that have succeeded as women in the, the executive in an executive role. But again, you're leading the way in it.

Where did that come from? How do you do that? And what's your dream scenario? The label. Well, I'll be the first one to say that I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah, the younger you are, you think you know the business backwards and forwards. And the older you get, you realize you'll never learn any of the business. But I also think, and not to discredit anyone, because like, I have the least

label experience of anyone that I'm working with on our team at Songs and Daughters, Big Loud. But what I also know is that while I don't know anything or know what I'm doing fully, like everyone that is successful in our business is constantly learning because they don't fully always know it either. And I think one of the, I guess, advantages is that the music industry changes the way we do the game of it, the way that we do business changes every six months or every two years or every five years. It's like the rules five

years ago are archaic now. So, you know, it's not, sometimes having 20 years experience working at a record label isn't probably always that helpful because you were you came up through, you know, an outdated set of rules that don't really apply anymore. And so that's kind of what I tell myself in my times of insecurity. What I'm like, what am I doing? Is that I'm actually learning the way that people do business now. So that's kind of how, that's where I am in my head about how I'm going about it.

And I'm also working, Songs and Daughters is a partnership with. big loud records, which is known for being very forward thinking, very young, scrappy. They're small, so they go really big at business. And I'm just having a lot of fun learning from them and learning with them. But, you know, I guess I've said this in a lot of interviews because this is always like, well, what is this? what is this label and and honestly it's just like a formal name for something a formal entity for something that i've been doing off the record for a long time kind of behind the scenes um most of my

relationships with um what i've what i've seen happen in the last however many years that i've been doing this is that there's such an intimacy in the writing room that um and a lot of trust building and a lot of things that are really paramount for building a healthy working relationship with an artist that happens in the writing room. And so I've looked up two or three or five years in with working with an artist and gone, wow, like, you're calling me to run through how you sequence your record

or to give you opinions on things because I've built trust with them. And so really, the label is just an extension of that that just gives a name to something that I was already doing. And I just enjoy, you know, obviously my role there is very mentor-like, but I'm learning a lot from getting to work with younger people. Being an executive informed the way you write. Great question.

I've already told, I've already told, so many, so many people, and I hope this doesn't make me sound jaded, but after sitting in rooms and listening to songs get pitched or songs be discussed in an executive room, I've definitely started to write a little bit differently, and I've heard myself say in the writing room, guys, like, to be honest,

like, this part of the song just doesn't matter that much. And I know that sounds terrible, and I of all people can't believe that I'm saying that, but I think I'm writing more as I would consume it. Or, you know, because I see when you, you know, when you listen to 20 or 30 songs with a project in mind, it becomes very obvious like what sparkles or what is sticky or what makes something memorable.

And not everything, what I've noticed, And this is just my, not everyone will agree with this. But I don't think it's every line in a song that makes a song great all the time. It's pieces, it's moments. And so I feel like sometimes in the writing room, I'm like, we have our moment that the people are going to remember. Like, we don't have to make every word. So the most incredible thing that's ever been written, if we can just give someone a moment, you know? It's hard to tell people the, it's almost more valuable to me.

make sure that certain lines aren't sparkly. Because if every line is sparkly, you stop, you don't know what to focus on. And that's what I keep telling, you know, my writers and the people I talk to is, you know, it's really about the title of the song. It's really about the concept of the song. And you have to let the listener experience that. It can't be like the listener has to go on this crazy mental journey. where there's

there's a certain kind of music where you can put on headphones and lose yourself for 60 minutes just in hearing the story and whatnot. That's totally fun and a kind of music. But in most of what we do,

it's generally speaking passive listening. So it needs to be hooks that they can sing along to even if they don't realize they're singing along to it and they need to be able to digest that hook, turn it, regurgitate it, but by the time the chorus is over, and that's like the only, the only thing is about the experience of the listener.

It's just not about the writers. Yeah, I, I find that, like, a lot of the music that gets, um, um, a lot of critical acclaims sometimes for me is exhaust, I'm exhausted by the time I listen to it. And I just feel like, if you just look at humanity or human nature, like everyone's exhausted when they start listening to music.

Like by the time you get to five o'clock at the end of your workday and you get in your car, like you don't want to feel more things all the time. Sometimes like if I'm on my back porch, like tonight going out there at 6 p.m., like drinking wine, maybe I do want to feel some things. But for the most part, we're also overwhelmed with what we feel anyway. And I think that I feel a little bit like a hypocrite saying that because I've made such a,

I've been blessed to have such a great career on hopefully making people feel things. So I don't want to tell someone, don't make people feel things. But I think working on the label side has given me just a wider view. It's less as more sometimes. And, you know, Roman Stone just released their top 500 songwriting. or something like that. You can tell kind of the age of the people who put that list together because 95% of the writers are from the 60s and 70s.

Oh, really? Yeah. And the, but the, you know, any list that, and number one was Bob Dylan. Number two was Paul McCartney. And I'm thinking, man, I'm a, I'm a Paul McCartney, John Lennon guy. I'm not, you know, Bob Dylan guy. I always liked, I liked Bob Dylan, but I love the idea that you can

sing, you can sing every Beatle song and I don't think you can sing every Bob Dylan song even if you can be moved by the lyric you know. Anyway, that's going back to the other thing. So, um, what's next for the label? Gosh, I wish we were doing this like a month from now because, um, there's, we have some things that I just can't reveal yet, um,

that are coming that I'm really, really excited about, um, my, my, like, whole intention, my whole word for this year was foundation and it was just going back to build the foundation of things. And I think we have some pretty, really exciting stuff that's happening with the label that, like, that I think in three, five years we're going to look back and go, that was, that was crucial in building the foundation for this company. And I wish that I can share those things with you right now. I'm working on a, on a scripted podcast for Iheart. That's kind of fun that I can't.

I only bring that up because that's something that I can talk about. Who are you writing you with? Well, I was actually, I'm not technically a writer on it. Like a guy named David Hudgens, who was a showrunner and writer for Friday Night Lights, wrote the script for it with his son and Brooks Hedgens. And I was actually just asked to come in and help write the hero song. at the end because the music was most of the music was already written. There's a really cool singer-songwriter slash actress named Scarlett that had written

the body of work that's kind of the soundtrack for it and they wrote the script based on this body of music. But the story is that like from the beginning, like in this first episode, it's about a female coming to Nashville to be a songwriter. And then from the first episode she can't put gas in her tank to the last episode. She's debuting her first big hit, like her first big cut on the Bobby Bones show. Bobby Bones plays himself on it. And we have a big artist that is like cutting this big hero song. And I was asked to come in and help write this hero song. And one thing led to another. And then all of a sudden,

I was on the phone with the writers talking them through like this is how, you know, for authenticity. like this is how things actually work in Nashville and there are even some pieces of my life that are included in there which is really special so I'm getting to work on it on like the producer's side in such a small way I even feel like a fraud saying that in front of you who has created such like an actual thing from the ground up I kind of came in like midway

and is getting... Is there a release day for it? I think well everything's obviously changing now because we were in the process of recording some of the final music for it and now we can't. So,

TDD. I can't answer that either. Much like everything in the world right now, no one has an answer. True. With the podcast and with the label, and having one, you know,

getting things like songwriter the year and all the all the love they've gotten from all the songs we've done in the last few years what do you have left to prove for you i mean i know the label and the pockets are going to be things that you haven't checked off yet as you're saying earlier that there are things that a songwriter feels that they need to do to you know to check them off to know they've made it what do you need to do more as a songwriter well first of all like like a i need to just keep myself inspired i actually said this to rodney the other day because we're having a discussion about my bandwidth about how much I can take on.

And he said something to me in the kitchen like, you know, look, he's being realized like, look, like you inspire so many people by all these things that you're doing. And I'm like, I was like, I'm not trying to inspire other people. I'm trying to keep myself inspired. I am a creative person and I'm 35 years old. Hopefully I've got another like 65 years left on this planet. I'm not saying I'm working until I'm 100, if that's how long I get. But I have a lot of life left and I have to stay inspired myself.

So that's my number one goal. The songwriting for me has just become, I think my ego has kind of moved over more into the other things, like the new things that are kind of scary, i.e. the label, because it's a very public way to, like, I'm really stepping out, right, in a way that I can privately fail as a songwriter every day. I can go in a room, write a piece of shit song.

No one will ever know. They only know the handful of things, the handful of days where I really did it, you know? But on the label front, it's very transparent. Everyone can see. So while my ego and all of my nerves

have kind of moved over there, I found that writing has just been a breeze. And so I don't know. I don't know if there's my question, But I do feel like as I build some of these things, these side things that hopefully will become my main things, you know, in the future, I do still feel the need to keep hitting home runs occasionally

as a songwriter to keep the lights on. Yeah, it also keeps in to the platform that I can use to build these other things. but I just haven't I don't even feel like it's about proving anything I'm just trying to continually evolve because I think when people get bored they're not they're not their best selves and and I think especially this is super deep but there's like this like ageism thing that I feel really strongly about that I want to continue to model especially for my daughter also for my son but but mainly for my daughter, that it can be really sexy and cool to get older and that you can stay fresh.

And I think that sometimes part of why some of us grew up thinking as women that getting older isn't a great thing is because we didn't have a lot of people that were great advertisement for becoming an older woman. And I want to, I want to be having a lot of fun in 10 years. you know, I want to model like, wow, I'm just having a lot of fun and I love what I'm doing and I don't think that that's exclusive to 20-year-olds. So that's, I think, where my heart is and building things right now that hopefully will give me life down the road. You know, I was having a conversation with an executive, a female executive of a major publisher where we were talking about how a lot of women writers want to be.

be either have been artists or want to be artists. But unlike a lot of men in the business where they can just be songwriters, some men are just songwriters. And this industry really tends to often, you know, push women either up to the front of the, you know, like some producer in the room, it's like, oh, we should do a deal with, we should make you the artist or the, whatever it is, though. there aren't a lot of women who have gone from I'm a songwriter to being an executive. And in reality, what you're doing is very similar to wanting to be an artist,

but is like an extension of, like, it's just, it's a really interesting way to pursue your story, to write your story, to be like, well, I'm not, I'm not. going to be an artist, which I think is a logical thing for songwriters. Even I released an album last year, you know? So it's like not to to not pursue that and to say no, my next thing is I'm going to do a podcast.

I'm going to do a, I'm going to start a record label. Those are totally different things. Do you find that your peers are watching you wanting to do the same thing? And are you seeing any sort of, have you seen any

backlash from anybody? by pursuing these things versus... For me starting the label? Yeah. Doing the other things. I mean... Other things in being a songwriter or being an artist. You know, these are unique to you.

You're not, you know, most people are not starting record labels. Most people are not starting scripted podcasts. Right. Yeah, I don't know that I felt any backlash. I think so. I definitely had a few co-writers that I felt were like surprised, mainly because, you know, as you know very well, like songwriters feel like we, going in the writing room, it's like we get a lot of information early of what's happening in the music business. And we kept the label completely under wraps until the day we announced it and we had a big birthday party and we invited all the press and all the music business. and all these people to this birthday party for me on July 22nd of last year.

And then when everyone got there, it was actually an announce. And my best friends in the whole world had no idea that I had been working on this for nine months. And so I think that just kind of caught some people off guard more than anything because they were like, how did I not know? Like people that know everything were not in the know on it. So I don't think it was as much about like, oh, who does she think she is trying to do this? think it was more like, wow, that just kind of messed with my mind. How did she keep that secret? How did all these people that she was working with keep the secret? Because that

Nashville is just like a little rumor mill. So it was more like that. I felt like I felt pretty naked for a while. Like I felt like, what does everybody think about this? But it was really good for me to experience that. It kind of reminded me of when I first like told the world that I was going to be a songwriter. It took me a long time to step out and actually own that. And I think I'm most proud that I did that because I think no matter what happens in the future, like I can't control how successful things are. But I'm really proud that I didn't let my fear or what other people thought about it

guide whether I would do it or not. And look, I mean, everybody's connected, right? So like maybe the purpose that we'll see in 10 years looking back or even 50 years is like someone else decided me doing this. Let some other people consider things for themselves that they wouldn't have otherwise. Because they're like, oh, well Nicole did that. Maybe I should try this thing, you know, and that's not why I'm doing it. But I just think that we don't always fully know the meaning of why we're supposed to do something for a long time. I'm just having a lot of fun doing it honestly.

And most of these things are ongoing, you know, processes that, you know, a song comes out, it lives its life for the most part. And then it has its decline over time. And then, you know, yes, there are evergreens. But most songs have a certain life and they go away. But the way you've lived your career, these things, you know, the songwriting isn't slowing down when you come off of what you came off of. last year, you know, and then plus the podcast isn't slowing down when there's, that's still building. And once that comes out, that's just going to lead to other opportunities in that space. And you haven't even really started that, you know, launching the record label last year,

right? It was July last year. So to do that, it's only, we're not even in one year yet, you know, in 20 years you're going to have that record label. Why did you choose a record label? Why did you choose a record label, not a publishing company. I imagine most writers choose to do that, or do you also have a publishing company? Well, I don't know when this is, I don't know when this is going to air, but I will say, without saying too much, I will say that, well, I will say, well, let me answer the second question first. We are now publishing company, too. We just signed our first writer that won't be announced for a second because of our plans to announce that are kind of put on hold right now, but back to question one, why not a publishing company?

I never felt like I had the bandwidth to give, to give a writer, because especially an up-and-coming developing writer is such a micromanaged situation. It's listening to every song they write, looking at every really being deliberate at every room they're put in and trying to nurture every relationship

and build it brick by brick by brick it's like a daily like and I didn't feel like I was at a point where I could like give a writer

what they deserved. Now being an executive is more of a macro like big picture you know two to three hour meetings and then step away you know

I'm not a day to day manager for the artists on the label. We have those teams, those people in place to do that stuff. And so it's crazy because I remember I did my last publishing deal a few years ago. And that was a conversation around my deal is now, do you want to start your own publishing company? And I was just so like dead set and I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this.

And I told my husband all the reasons why. And then I remember coming back from the, the dinner was Seth England, who is partner at Big Loud, who's our partner at Songs and Daughters. And we had basically had this big dinner and we kind of had this idea at dinner. And I got in the car and I started crying. I was so excited. I'm like, we're starting a record label. And Rodney goes, you won't sign a writer, but you'll start a record label.

But I think it was more about just knowing myself. I think there was an inner knowing that knew. Look, when I was 14, I wrote myself a letter. saying you're moving to Nashville when you graduate to go work for a record label. I wanted to come and work at a label or work as a manager. And so I think the label side of it was always something that was in me from an early age, more than being a publisher. I didn't even know that a publisher existed when I was 14 years old.

It's crazy. Well, thank you for doing an update with us. Thanks for having me. Pretty fun to watch your career. Just rocket ship like crazy. I'm sure it's weird when it's your own life and everything seems slow in the moment. And then I'm glad we get to do these kinds of catch-ups with people so they can actually look back and see how much has happened since really only been a couple two, three years since we interviewed the last, you know? Well, right back at you.

I know everybody that follows this probably follows you very closely, but it's been so fun to see all the things that you're doing and the wrong man just do what it's doing. It's just incredible. But I also have to tell you to just give, And The Writer is props. I've done a lot of podcasts in the last year.

Like more than I'm, like I'm an embarrassing amount. And I can't tell you how many people come up to me and say that they listen to my and The Writer is. And it's people that aren't even really that privy to the music business. And so I think this thing has such a broader reach than I even knew when we did it. So thank you for having me. Yeah.

All right. Well, it's good to see, fam. I will someday I'll make it to Nashville when we're allowed to be on airplanes. I might not ever be going back to Nashville either. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, I'll see you in our whatever this is Zoom. Bye.

See you. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White.

Until next time, this is Ross Gwold. on.