And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 88: Nija Charles

Episode Date: July 6, 2020

Our guest is a 22-year-old Grammy-winning songwriter, record producer, and artist from Union, New Jersey. She is best known for her work with Beyoncé and Jay Z (“Heard About Us”, “LoveHappy”), Cardi B (“Ring”, “I Do”), and Chris Brown and Drake (“No Guidance”) as well as her releases with Post Malone, Meek Mill, Travis Scott, Anitta, 21 Savage, Ella Mai, Major Lazer, and many more. Most recently she celebrated her first No. 1 for Lady Gaga’s single with Ariana Grande, “Rain On Me”, which debuted at No. 1 on the Billboard Hot 100 Chart. She has also gained attention as a featured artist alongside Beyoncé and Tierra Whack on the record, "My Power" from the Lion King live-action soundtrack album,’The Lion King: The Gift’. This year she was named an honoree in Forbes 30 under 30 Class of 2020. And The Writer Is...Nija Charles!Artwork: Michael Richey WhitePhoto: Nailah HowzeThis episode is sponsored by BMI and ROYALTIES, a new show from Darren Criss available exclusively on Quibi. Watch the whole season now and hear soundtrack courtesy of Republic Records. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. For a little bit of context,

we just wanted you to know that a lot of these were recorded before quarantine. And as we know, a lot has changed in 2020. So again, please stay safe out there. and enjoy the new episodes of And The Writer is. This week's episode is sponsored by BMI. At BMI, music moves their world, just like it moves mine. BMI is my performing rights organization. They're the bridge between people who create music like me

and the businesses that bring it to the public. They make sure I get paid when my music is streamed on apps or shows, played on radio, at live shows, or in bars, gyms. basically anywhere where music is played. And they do this for over 900,000 songwriters, composers and music publishers, with more than 14 million songs across genres. But it's more than that.

They help us navigate the music industry. They create opportunities for aspiring writers and composers through stages at festivals, song camps, and workshops. And they connect us with the right people. They're also on Capitol Hill, fighting for copyright protection and fair royalties. And they work hard to ensure the future of music.

They have my back and they'll have yours. Learn more at BMI.com. This episode is brought to you by the new Quibi series, Royalties. Royalties is a 10-episode scripted comedy about songwriters trying to make hit songs daily. The show is created by N-Stars Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor my friend Darren Chris, go blue, who also co-wrote

all 10 original songs. Just to give you a sense of the show, they have Mark Hamill as a country star named Philip Combs singing about King Kong Small P penis. They have Jennifer Coolidge as a pop diva who decides to do a K-pop collab, and Rufus Wainwright

as a dance music icon. You can watch all 10 episodes and music videos on Quibi with a free 14-day trial. And Republic Records has released the entire soundtrack. So go check out. Welcome to

And The Writer is, I am your host Ross Golan. Today's groundbreaking prodigy is a multi-platinum writer whose penned career defining records for some of the biggest names in music. Having produced beats at home

since she was 13, this writer found a way to do it all. Now, just to name a few of her legendary collaborators, She's recorded Cardi B, Meek Mill, Kaylani, JZ, and Beyonce, the latter which are only upstaged by the Lion King's Nala and Simba. She's currently enjoying a top 10 record with no guidance by Chris Brown featuring Drake and co-wrote what will inevitably be 2020's next breakout star Summer Walker's new single.

That's just a few credits to back up this 20. 22-year-old songwriter's resume. All the way from across the river in New Jersey, this woman is already advancing female empowerment in this male-dominated industry. And the writer is Nisia Charles. Hello, hello, hello, hello. Thank you for that introduction.

Man, it's long-winded today. I feel like because in New York you just walk everywhere, that I show up everywhere a little short of breath. It's all the exercise. Man, we were just talking about L.A. and New York and what's better? What's better in your opinion? I think for the work, living in L.A. is better. But just for, you know, just a human lifestyle, I like New York so much better because I feel like when, back when I was living in New York, music was a small part of my day. You know what I mean? Like, I would wake up, go get brunch or breakfast, maybe go to the studio really quickly. But then I would handle, like, other stuff. I don't know, just handling a lot of errands. Like, I just remember music.

Even though I was working on music all the time, it was such a small part of, like, just my schedule. And I would hang out with friends more, party more. But it was well balanced. Meanwhile, when I'm in L.A., like, all I do is music, wake up, sessions out 1 p.m., maybe do a double. And then I come home and eat and rest up for the next day to repeat it. Yeah.

And family is out here. as well and I felt like it was more it was well balanced out here as compared to LA. Is that just from having grown? I mean we can start from the beginning you're you were born and raised in New Jersey right? Yep. What was your family life like? My family life was a great siblings and what do you got so I have one little sister um we're four and a half years apart um and I have two aunts. One of one who's kind of close in age with me and uncle who's close in age with me. So they were like my brothers and sisters. And then all of my family is like really into music. None of them

went into the music industry, but, you know, I was always around it. My dad was a DJ. And in Jersey, house music is big over there. So I was always hearing house music. And my dad was always putting me on a new music and, well, old music. And my family just was always singing and my aunt and uncle made beats. So me being like six, seven years old and watching them, you know, being on this little keyboard, like, I'm like, I want to do that. Like, but they would never let me do it in the beginning because I was so young and, you know, it was such a new thing for them. Um, but eventually, like, I just, I was always fascinated by it and it grew my interest and I started, as I got older, I started researching Ryan Leslie videos when he was making the beats on, on YouTube. And that's when

I really started like honing in. Like at 13 years old, my mom bought me my own keyboard, you know, after all those years of saying I want that, I want that. And from then on, you know, it just went crazy. What did you start making beats on? I started on reason. Uh-huh. Started on reason.

And then once I realized I wanted to record vocals, I started using logic. Right. Were your aunt and uncle writing for other people? Or were they writing for themselves? No, they weren't even right. Or they just, like, I mean, when you're saying they're making beats, they're just having fun making beats, and that's just like a hobby. Yeah, like, it was their hobby.

And actually, my uncle used it as a little hustle because they would, like, upload their beats to, like, sound click and little things like that and have, like, little beat deals. But they weren't really, like, write and songwriting necessarily, just making beats for fun. So why did you ever want to start doing vocal stuff? Like, why bother if you're already doing beats at 13? I mean, what changed it?

The thing for me was, I think, the marketing. I'm like, as I grew older, I realized, like, people uploading their beats to SoundCloud wasn't the way to go. I'm like, how am I going to be out, how am I going to outshine everyone or, you know, get the spotlight I need if everyone does this? So I was like, well, people want to hear a song, so let me just sing on top of my beats and upload it to SoundCloud. and then that way people will want my beats more because, you know, I'm just thinking of this as a marketing tool, not even like this is what I want to do. So eventually I started like singing on top of my beats and people started paying attention more to the songs. They were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, the beats are cool, but like, who's this? And also who's the producer? And I'm like,

well, that's the whole point. It's me. So that's when I realized, like, people really like the song. So I started taking, uh, filming snippets of, of the little songs I was doing and putting them on Instagram, like 60-second clip videos. And that started to gain attraction from like ANRs and other producers. It jumped all the way to that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, what is going to junior high and high school making beats? Did you and writing songs?

Because I feel like when I was writing songs growing up, I would write songs, but I'd be in my room writing. And then maybe I'd play some gigs out and stuff like that. but I wasn't uploading anything, you know? Did everyone in school know that you were doing this? Was it like that? No. So I was, I didn't record for a long, long time. I didn't start recording until I was like 16, 17.

And even then, uh, it wasn't like that big. Um, from 13 to 16, I was just making beats. And I would like give them to people in my hometown who made music. So it was like, I created a little buzz from. myself there. So they knew that I was doing music but they didn't know how full scale it was.

Do they now? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Is it weird when you go home? It's a little weird. It definitely is a little weird. Some people have popped up at my grandmother's house like asking where I'm at. I was on the state newspaper

the front page so I woke up on everyone's lawn, well everyone woke up with me on their lawns And I had to give autographs and stuff. It was a little weird. You got into Clive Davis at NYU, right? Yeah, yeah. Why did you want to go to school at that point?

Well, really, I knew I wanted to get into music, but my mom was a mechanical engineer. And me growing up, I was always into other things other than music. Like, I was into sports. I was really into math and science. And my mom, she was, she wasn't. wasn't really on board with the music thing. She always knew it was a hobby, but she was like, you need to go to school, get a real job, you know, study something real. So my, I was, college was always mandatory for me. And she went to Georgia Tech, so I wanted to go to Georgia Tech. But as, you know, in the later years of high school, I realized, like, I did not want to do that. And if I went to school, I had to go to school for something that, you know, I wanted to do. And I knew that music, even at this point, I didn't know that song writing was what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to be a producer or something in music.

So I was like, I need to study music. So that's when I enrolled at the NYU future music moguls program when I was a junior. And I got into their high school program. And that showed my mom, you know, that I was serious. Right. Serious about it. And then the next year I applied to the college and I got in because I was like, I need to study music. Honestly, I got full scholarships to other schools. I got full scholarships to other schools and every school that I apply to I applied to with a different major. That's how, like, much I was just like, I don't know what I... So when you were, when you were looking at, you know, you audition, you get into, or not audition, but you get into a music school, you know, they had to, your mom had to eventually deal with it and like, and have to go through that emotional roller coaster.

I'm like, oh, no, my daughter's going to do this whether I like it or not. I mean, what were those conversations like? The conversations with my mom was always, you know, they were very hesitant. She was like, is this really what you want to do? I really want you to, you know, have a backbone nisha. You know, I need you to support yourself. And, you know, I was always like, you know, I'm going to be able to support myself. But when she finally, the nail in the coffin was my sophomore year when I got my first cut from Chris Brown.

and that's when she realized okay this is serious what did your your dad being a DJ yeah like how was he responding to things my dad is an old school DJ so he hardly even knows about like how to

use softwares on a laptop so me telling him about everything that I was doing was just like oh okay well that's nice that's dope it didn't really register for him until like I got Grammy nominated and I moved away that's when he was like oh you're like really doing this for real so for him was a little different

right yeah um you're a sophomore in new york city you know new york city it's how do you you know we've a lot of listeners to people who are in high school and college and they're trying to figure out how to get their beats heard how to get songs heard um you're in a major city they're a bunch of record labels but how do you get your songs heard i mean it's different from There are a lot of people who post things like you were saying, but how was that light shining on you? Like you were saying, how did you get noticed? Why is it that Chris Brown ends up cutting your song? So me, I was never aiming to get my stuff to A&Rs or like the managers or whatever.

I was more so connecting and networking with producers. And I think those producers around the city and just using Instagram as a networking tool period. So producers around the world with their connections, it was always word of mouth and they would tell like an A&R manager that they knew about me and the work were like, oh, check this girl out. Like her songs were dope. And then that's how A&Rs and people in the business started. Who's the first producer that kind of brought you into a studio where you weren't just writing,

but you're networking. Then there's sort of some producer who says, I'm going to bring into a real studio. And you go from writing. You know, writing, using logic in your room is a great way for all writers to write. But there's this certain change when you walk into a commercial studio and you look around, oh man, there's a runner here who's about to grab you coffee. So actually, the first person who brought me into the studio wasn't a producer. It was Jay Grand, the SVP at RCA.

How did he hear you? He heard about me through my manager, Christian, who wasn't managing me at the time. Jay Graham still lives in New York, so he was friends with Christian. He was like, yo, I need a writer. You know any writers in New York? And Christian, I had just met Christian, well, met him via Instagram like two weeks prior. And he was like, well, I know one. And he called on me.

He was like, yo, do you think you can go down to Jungle City studios in like 15 minutes? I was doing homework. I was like, yeah. All I knew was that Jungle City was like one of the best studios in New York. So I dropped my homework and I ran down there. I didn't even know who Jay Grant was. So I met him and he ended up being like this major mentor to me. Like I love Jay Grant to this day.

He definitely started a lot of things for me. I went down there and the first producer he had me working with was Nick twice as nice, Nick Odina. And yeah, he was like he was very brutal, very blunt as well. But he told me how it, he told it to me how it is. he liked what I did the first day and he invited me back the second day and he was like, listen, I'm going to tell you like this, you're going to be

a big songwriter. So I'm going to just help you work through this and I'm just letting you know how it's going to go because you have a lot of potential. And I'm like oh, thank you. But yeah, he really started off

a lot of events in my career. Did you go back to the dorm after that and keep working on whatever homework you were? Yeah. Actually, I think I finished it in the morning because after I left the studio, it was maybe like 2, 3 a.m.

How many more years of school did you do before you or just that this isn't worth it? I finished out my sophomore year. I was really trying to go. I wanted, because my mom was adamant about me finishing school, she didn't care about, you know, she cared about the Chris Brown Cuds,

but she was like, I need a college graduate in my house. So she wanted me to finish But I My U made it mandatory from my year To study abroad in Berlin Our junior year And that was when my career really started picking up And I just

I couldn't do that So I took a leave of absence the year after Does Are you close to your little sister? Yeah very Does she want to do music? She wants to be in the music business What does that mean

Like she wants to work on the label side Yeah yeah she wants to work on the little sister? Yeah yeah she wants to work on the label side marketing and she's very creative because now she'd be going to school to them she's four and a half years younger she's got to be starting to look at colleges right right now yep is that pressure for your family to have her finish because like did she give you shit about how i'm like yeah she's like this year's fault and well really my mom's like i need at least one college graduate

i can't have two drop pounds yeah but the music industry is weird like that i mean no one's ever asked me, you know, for my, like, I've never had to present my degree, regardless of whether I went to school. Like, I don't, I, I can, I can, you can still say you went to NYU. And even that, no one really's looking at that. They're like, they want to know what songs you've written with, or who you've written with, you know. But I think, um, it's just a traditional thinking, uh, for families, you know, and I think my mom just wants to, you know, she just wants that label. How did you feel as a young woman walking into that world that is predominantly male? Without any real, like at that point you didn't really have the credits.

And these people have been really mentors. I mean, obviously, you know, Jay Grant, some of these people have been on your side. But you still had to walk in and be creative in a room full of people who have, you know, it's not always it's not always conducive for a woman to walk in and be creative and be supported you know how did you feel walking in this you know at that point um walking in i was always secure with myself and i have to think i have to thank my mom for that because she always instilled in me like you know even though you're going to be especially being a black woman like you know you're you have a lot to prove to people so make sure you have you have to be at least you know twice as better, you know, as the people who were in the room in order to get that respect. So I always had that mentality. I was never insecure or, you know, thinking about, oh, what are they going to think? Or, you know, I just never thought of it like that.

I always made sure that, like, I did my best and whatever I brought into the room was going to be respected. Yeah. When you're writing with Chris Brown, that's one of your first sessions, right? Like big? I wasn't in the room with him when I had my first cut. So one of my first big sessions, I believe, was with David Gettah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Like in L.A.? Yeah, in L.A. Yeah, I didn't have my big, big sessions out here. So you go into these sessions and you start getting songs at Sound Pro, you're working with bigger name, producers, and whatnot. What's the, you know, like you're saying. saying Christian introduce you to Jay Grant. So Christian's your manager.

Yeah. You know, what's the steps that goes from, you know, introducing your music to the head of RCA, one of the senior vice presidents of RCA, like going that to getting a major publishing deal? What are all the steps that happen for somebody? It was so fast, and it was within a year. So going from Jay Grand,

after the first time I met him I want to say like maybe one or two weeks after he was like I want you in L.A. with me I'm going to do some sessions and I was like okay cool it was my spring break I went out there and during that time is when I met Christian

finally and as soon as I met Christian he was like all right cool I'm going to take you to some meetings and my first time in L.A. I got my first offer which was from APG and after that word spread around like wildfire. I think it was because of the bounces. You know, like different producers from different publishers were in the room.

So, of course, they heard the bounces as well. And then they started reaching out. And then I ended up going back and forth to L.A. every weekend. Well, every week. So I would go to school Monday afternoon to Thursday and then fly out Thursday night and be in L.A. till Monday morning. And I was every week until I finished school.

And during that whole spring semester, I was just being courted by publishers. And I finally made my decision around my birthday, or actually around this time, yeah, before Thanksgiving. And I signed with you and PG. But it was almost eight months of me being courted and just working and feeling the temperature out with all the publishers. I mean, it's always fun when you're, you know, part of, I've been in the business for a minute as a writer. So it's like you always know when there's a lot of buzz because a few people are going to email you being like, hey, you want to write with Nisia? And you're like, well, so you're one of the people who's interested, you're one of them.

You know, it's just, it's just how it goes. So there definitely was a lot of buzz around it. And David Gray's amazing. Yeah, I love David. Jody, Lillia, everyone there. I love UMPG. Yeah. So did the, you know, Flo Rida Ola, you know, that's one of those records where I would assume that that, did that come from one of the APG sessions?

Or how does something like that? Is that, like, did some of these cuts come from the courting phase? Some of, actually, Ring. Ring definitely came from the courting phase. Flo Rida actually came from a J. Grand session. I had did another song and, you know, Mike Karen, like Frankenstein, that he, like, took my verse and put it into, like, another song. that he had and that's how that happened but did you meet cardi B did you work with her i ended up meeting her uh well i met her before she really got lit i met her here in new york um in the studio that she

was working out of um but i didn't work in the room with her making ring and i do um ring and i do ring featuring kailani i do featuring ciza yeah you just kind of got like the trifecta of, you know, the 2019 royalty, like right there. Having an invasion of privacy, which is such a big album, obviously the album was nominated and whatnot, how did you, you know, how do you emotionally deal with success? I'm pretty level-headed, mainly because with the success,

I'm just thankful for I'm thinking for everything that came into fruition I think the the hardest part about dealing with it is being away from my family so long and also all of the attention

but you know what do you mean all the attention all the attention meaning like you know of course it's going to be controversy with you know talking about the rap stuff Like people ask me if I ghost wrote for Cardi and it's like no I have not gross written for Cardi.

I only wrote the hooks that Kalani and Cizzo wrote. But then also there's the good stuff where there's people telling me that, you know, I'm their inspiration and, you know, I'm doing it for the young people, which I love that. So it's always the good and, not the good and bad, but it's a lot of stuff to, you know, tackle. Obviously, I feel like the biggest names that you can get in the music business are going to be Jay Z and Beyonce. Yeah. You know, like, you just can't get bigger. There literally is nobody bigger. How did they hear about you?

No idea. No idea. Did you just get a phone call? Yeah. You're like, hey, it's Beyonce? Yeah, I know. I know Christian was literally trying to, he was trying everything in his power any way he could to, like, get my music heard.

But I think, I think it was through. Brandon Kitchen, I think Brandon Kitchen knew some of the people on her team. He got it somehow, some way. He sent over a couple of my songs that I would have never thought to send, and she liked some of them. And that was, Christian gave me the call. I was around Coachella, and I was like, what? What, Beyonce likes some of the songs? That's so crazy.

Yeah, that was like the first. the beginning of me and Beyonce's, you know, relationship. I feel like a lot of people want, you know, they ask how to get songs heard, and the easiest answer is write better songs. You know, because people will spread these things, and even those songs that you wouldn't think to sing or send, those are the ones that get cut because you have so many songs

that somebody's like, well, these are available, let's send these, or these make sense, so let's send these. It's a, you know, I'd like to think I'm a quality guy over a quantity guy, but in reality, you need both. Yeah. And you have to be able to create just an abundance of material that people want. Because otherwise, you know, no one's going to hear it. You can't just send nothing and hope that, you know, and tell someone, look, Nisha's amazing.

It's like, yeah, but let me hear something. And then they have to be able to not just hear it, but respond to it. So it has to be exceptional. You were saying you were doing, you know, sometimes you do double sessions and you do, you know, the part of the L.A. grind. And I suppose there are probably people who do two sessions a day in New York too. But there's a, there are times where one session a day makes sense. There's a time when one hour a day makes sense. And then there's a time where you go and you do a month of doing two sessions a day, sometimes three.

And those sessions, you're writing multiple songs and multiple. ideas. How do you, when you were saying you go home and you recoup kind of planning for the next day, how do you, how do you not rewrite the same songs? How do you write, how are you creative every time? And do you rewrite songs every time? Do you use the same titles? Do you, you know, like, how do you deal with doing two, two sessions a day for as long as you have, even just the last, like, year or so, two years of living in LA. That is so many

songs. I was definitely slowed down on the doubles. I only do doubles when it makes sense. Like, you know, if I can't cancel a session or an artist is in town and that's the only day they can do it or it's an artist or a producer I really want to get in with

then I would do that. So it's not all the time. But in order for me to stay creative, I try, I try to stay away from using the same song titles but for me I'm the biggest bum so after sessions I go home

I literally do nothing I just eat and I'm a big TV show watcher What are you watching now? Right now I'm watching I watch a lot of reality TV shows I'm watching Black Inc crew and I'm watching I just finished Up Power

I love insecure. I love shameless. I love Milf. What else do I like? I like watching bad cartoons like a family guy and Big Mouth. Things like that. I'm a heavy binge watcher too. Do you have any social life right now?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And L.A., it's a little different just because most of my friends are music friends. So I do hang in, you know, everyone in the music industry is a little older than me. So I do have a social life though Like I hang out with my manager a lot And like my photographer And you know Some of the artists that I work with

I hang out with them a lot I love going to Shaba Which I just miss shout out to Billy Walsh And yeah Is it Is it hard to be younger than everybody It definitely was at a point in time Because I just turned 21

Oh yeah you couldn't You couldn't go out even if they wanted to Right I mean I just turned 22 But like I was in L.A. for a whole two years. So there was a great chunk. And my birthday's in October, so there was a great chunk of that first year

where I couldn't do anything. And everyone else is like, you know, as soon as we finish this session, they're like, yo, you want to go to the bar? I can't. And I already look young, so my fake ID will not work with the bouncer. So it was definitely hard in the beginning.

But, like, I maintained my social life with, like, going to the pier and going to go-karting. like stuff like that or going to six flags. Quibi's new show royalties is basically a satire about And The Writer is and it is hysterical. It's basically the untold story of songwriters behind the world's biggest hits and follows the songwriting duo Sarah and Pierce as they navigate the strange and hilarious challenges of creating great songs for insane artists. You can check out the music, which has been released on the

one and only Republic Records on your favorite DSP. So go check out Quibi's new show royalties now. This week's episode is sponsored by BMI. Full disclosure, Joe and I are both BMI songwriters. So we didn't write this, but we believe it. BMI, we celebrate your talent, value your music, and champion your rights. To all our songwriters and composers, your passion is ours. BMI, music moves, our world.

Meek Mill, 21 Savage, totally different artists. Both had huge albums come sort of back to back that you were part of. The Meek Mill one featuring Cardi B again and featuring LMA, like just, again, just royalty for this last year. How was the process of working with someone like Meek? and 21 Savage, both who've dealt with, you know, recent very public injustices to both of them. Yeah. You know, did, there's a time where being an artist makes you part of politics.

And both of those albums and both of those artists really were, had to be political this year because they were just unjustly in trouble for things, you know. How did you deal with being part of those? specific projects. Did any of that stuff that was happening in the zeitgeist? Did any of that affect you in any way? Well, not with 21, because

when 21, when we were working on his album, he wasn't going through that stuff at the time. So that was a little different. But me working with Meek, he had just gotten out of jail. And I just knew and he was always expressing

to me, like, you know, he had something to say. He wanted to say something. So, you know, I had to always keep that in mind when I was working with him. Like it couldn't just be the regular like party records. Like I would play him like, you know, just regular radio records that, you know, you could give, pass around. And he was like, no, like I can't do this. It's sort of the exact opposite situation is something like Celebrate, which as a DJ Collad record to have featuring Post Malone and Travis Scott.

Also, again, just one of those event records that just has some massive names attached to it. Yes. Is there ever a time when you see those kinds of names where you have a certain expectation for the song? Like, do you expect the song to be, you know, do you go into a song being released thinking about, you know, where the song's going to go? Do you daydream about these records?

How do you deal with having Post Malone, Travis Scott, and DJ Khaled on a song? I mean, I think, when when everyone sees or hears about certain names being on a record, you automatically think like, oh, this is out of here.

Because it's like Post Malone, one of the biggest artists right now, like record breaking sales, Travis Scott, same, DJ Khalid, same. So it's like, when you have all of this together, it's like, there's no way this can flop. Yeah. So I think

everyone just goes into it with that expectation. Do you have a threshold on what you think success is? No. Oh, yes, I do. I think success is when you're able to take care of any and everything without a care in the world. You know, no worries. Yeah.

You mean like financially speaking? Financially and when you don't have any more goals to fulfill. What are the goals that you have to fulfill, though? There's so many. I want a number one on the Hot 100. I want to sign producers. I want to sign writers. I want to start my own record label, my own publishing company.

Are you looking to do that now? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you started that? Yes, yeah. There's some producers that I really like working with. I'm in the process of doing that. And I also want to cross over into the pop world. I want to get a number one in the top 40 radio charts.

So, you know, there's a lot of things I have to knock off my wish list. A song, like, no guidance, which right now is this week in particular is kind of peaking, it has a new peak at... It's 21, 21 weeks. Yeah. This is the high-so I think it's been on billboard, right?

No, no, no. It was number five. It peaked at number five at one time. I thought it was like number five, like now. No, it's not. number seven post Malone and uh and Lizzo oh so I'm I'm off by by a couple weeks but like um you know and by the time this is heard we don't know where it'll be but um a song like this you know it adds another name with Drake and it do you are you able to leverage these relationships you know

for you to go in with Drake in particular outside of Chris Brown who you've worked with before um it makes it a little easier it definitely makes it a little easier but you know again again, like, it's still, you know, these artists are still kind of hard to work with sometimes. Well, not hard to work with, but it's still hard to get into that circle because, you know, like Post Malone, you know, his people are Lou and Frank and Billy, so it's kind of hard to infiltrate that circle, which is the same with Drake. He has his day ones, and I respect everyone for that because they work with who they started with. So it makes it a little easier, but, you know, it's still those situations.

two more people I want to talk about before getting into some other things but um first one is summer walker who I think is like could be one of those people that's like the day ones feels like it's so early in her career but there's so much buzz about her that do you think that that's is that one of those relationships that you're talking about do you feel like that could be a situation where you could build a career with an artist like that yeah um me and summer walker have so so much music out

and coming out at the same time I think we me her and London have just created this system that works you know it works for all of us what's that system like me helping co-writing her situations and you know him producing the track and

you know her performing it's just all it works out sure and then we have to talk about the Lion King man yeah I think on some level especially because, you know, you grew up, I'm sure, with

the Lion King movie. Yeah. So, how do you feel about being a part of this process? And, you know, it's out of your, it's out of the wheelhouse in the way that, you know, if you're saying that you want to reach for,

you know, a Hot 100 number one, but a pop radio number one, you know, when you're looking at a, box office smash on movies that's also something

that you weren't reaching for but you kind of achieve that so how do you feel about that whole process what went down how did you get a part of it man well the Lion King I'm just glad to be a part of that because that was a part of history and it was like my childhood so

being able to redo that you know for the next generation was very very dope but me I'm just glad that wasn't my first time working with Beyonce because I think that would have put so much more pressure on me. So being that this

was the second time, it took a lot of pressure off and I was a little more relaxed working, you know, on the material. If you have a goal of getting a pop number one, you know, pop radio number one, top 40, do you

change who you write with because you're aiming for that in particular or is it just sort of something that you just would like to have happen? Is that an addressable goal? I think yes I do change who I'm writing with to make that happen but I change that in order for me to become better so like when I'm working on the rhythmic stuff

I don't usually work with co-writers because how I work is very fast and in the booth I freestyle but when it comes to pop songs like I need to become better so I like co-writing with other pop writers and bouncing off ideas and working with pop producers. You know, working with, you know, the producers who like make, I don't know, like, no guidance. I don't think it would make sense to make a song with them for like Selena Gomez. So you get what I mean. Like, I think changing. Why not?

Because it's, how can I say this? I think there needs to be other elements put into a pop song. If you notice the no guidance song is a loop until the part where Drake switches up. Whereas in a pop song, you know, there's changes and there's chord changes. And I think the main difference is that in urban music, producers are beat makers, whereas pop producers are producers, like actual producers. They pull the pianos out, they pull out all the instruments, and they even write songs on the guitar. You will hardly ever walk into a rap session and see them making a song to a guitar.

You know, it's loops. So I think that can be, it's great for hooks, but in order to pull like a real song out with like a lot of thought into it is a little harder. And that's why I think working with other producers who are more experienced in that realm is a better idea. You started from doing, from making beats. And now that you have the experience working in, you know, urban and pop, do you feel like you could produce again? Oh, yeah. I'm definitely getting back into it. How so? So I've been on both sides working in logic and making loops.

and doing my drums and fruity loops and then also sending samples out to like urban producers or even like pop producers as well but when it comes to pop I like taking spliced loops and you know sending them writing a song over and sending it out to pop producers to flesh out I've seen interviews with you and read some stuff about you wanting to be

something of an artist tune you were featured in The Lion King when you assuming you're going to pursue that yeah do you collaborate or when you write do you write alone on you know lyric and melody and so

I write alone yeah because the stuff that I'm writing for myself is mainly urban and again for me co-writing on urban music it kind of it not to say that it doesn't work, but it kind of like makes me hesitate and I overthink stuff

just because it stops my process, like how I naturally work on urban songs. Do you think that you could, that there's a world where there can be both where you write pop songs where you kind of just go off the cuff and do freestyle more? And is there a world where people write urban music where they, you know, have like you were saying, core changes and whatnot. Do you think that those, you know, when I think, if you think of urban music 25 years ago, there are all kinds of core changes, you know, but I don't know if it's out of, you know, just because it's easier to do loops and to create more content that that's the way it's become,

but do you feel like it could go back? I'm just wondering, do you think that music's going to change or is this sort of the way it is right now and people are going to get tighter into it? I think there's a chance that it can come back. Like right now, the guitar, the guitar instrumentations are a big thing in urban music right now, like with Juice World and XXX. So maybe there can be chord changes. And I'm sure, like, Lil Nas X will probably, you know, experiment with that,

with all the different things that he's bringing into, you know, urban music. but you know like I technically I honestly wouldn't like expect the main rappers to rap over things like that at least not right now because it's such a the drums are the thing that makes the beat what it is sure not so much the chords so I don't think for right now but when you say you're making beats at home are you doing Are you then sending those out to artists right now And kind of just seeing if any of them cut them? Yeah, yep, yeah.

Are you getting some cuts? Yeah. Oh. Can you tell me? Can you tell me? I can't. I can't. No, no, no.

No one's listening to this. Not yet, at least. Okay, okay, fair enough. Let's go to the next segment. Five for five. I'm going to name five things and just tell me some things off the cuff. Okay. Okay.

Let's start with the Carter's. Oh. Just tell you five things. I'm just going to name five. I'm going to name five things. You just tell me what comes to your head. No rules, really. Okay.

Royalty. Um, what else comes to my head? One of the most, one of the best and the most high pressure of all times. events that happen in my life um uh Gramies um

um billionaires and uh what's the last thing is that what you want to is that what is like do you think of

because you're starting at at an age where you know uh it's you're you're at such a success, you're at a certain level of success already at this point that things like investing in your future means something different than somebody who's 50 who's investing in their future for the first time. Right.

You know, do you see yourself owning things like clothing lines or is it for you, you're more focused right now just on? Um, I'm, I'm focused on music, but I'm about to start, you know, thinking about those things. I've always thought about those things. Now I'm actually going to get into it with my business manager once I get one and really honing on that because it's definitely about that time. But there's many other things that I want to get into. Like what? Like I want to build apps. I want to, you know, own a couple franchises, make like my own drink or something. I'm really into food and stuff like that.

I want to get into the TV world and like produce TV shows and tech. Let's go with UMPG, your publisher. Okay, Lillia sinks, sessions, great sessions. How are they interactive with you? Do you send them all your songs? Are you right? Yeah, Lillia has, Lillia and Sterling, I think, they have like a link to all of my song, all of my demos.

that way lilia as soon as i upload you know a new demo she goes out and you know tries to place them um she really she knows every single what of my demos like crazy yeah i love lilia at death was her first signy um and i made sure the reason why i pegged the impg is because like i had a relationship with everyone there like i wanted to make sure that it was like a you know a team effort you know i didn't want to just go to a label and it just be me and my A&R because, you know, what if they leave? You know, and it happens all the time. So I wanted to make sure that, you know, I knew everyone and everyone knew me.

And I can say that was successful at UMPG. Yeah. Jay Grand. Jay Grand. My music father. One of the best mentors. A crazy, crazy guy. Let's see.

What else do I say about him? A great ear. He has a great ear. And the funniest when he's drunk. Christian McCurdy, your manager. Christian. Annoying. My brother. The nicest guy you'll ever meet.

The most compassionate guy I've ever met. And crazy for being, going raw. vegan. Wow. Why did he do that? He just wanted to change his life up and I think he's had mainly discipline. Yeah. He went raw

vegan for like a year. He stopped but I remember that was like where I'm like you're still only eating like grass and nuts and berries like no thanks. What about you know the last one I have many questions about but let's just

I'm curious what she how you guys are talking about your career now, but your mom. Oh, my mom is the best support system. The best teacher, because she's instilled so many lessons in me, especially, like, she was a mechanical engineer, and she was, like, a VP at her job for Verizon. And she was, like, the only black woman who was a real boss at her job at her job. And I took it for granted when I was younger because I just thought that was normal.

And all the lessons she was teaching me didn't register until I got older. And I'm like, oh, okay, now I see how much of a boss she really was. And just the values that she's instilled with me, values, she's taught me a lot of that. The nicest person, she's loved by everyone. I can't think of anyone who's ever disliked her. and loving. She's very loving. If you were to give a young writer advice, what would you say?

I would say don't pay attention to the outside opinions. Worry about you and your craft. And when you believe in your craft, then go out and get it. When you say don't worry about outside opinions, did you have to, did people give outside opinions that you had to ignore? Yeah, all the time. But I think that one thing that I love about me is that I don't really care. And I'm the type of person that like, you can tell me the sky's blue, but I need to go out there and see it for myself. So there was a lot of people who would tell me like, no, maybe this could be

better. And I'm like, all right, well, you didn't like it. That's fine. I like it. So that's all that matters and eventually you know that got me somewhere because that same beat that one person didn't like ended up getting picked up so totally it is important that you know i tell the writers that i work with who are assigned to me you know it's like i i will give my opinion it doesn't mean it's right but i'll i'll least qualify it the best i can and say this is why i think you could beat it or this is what i think you could do to make it better but if somebody else hears it You know, if there's like a chain of eight people on it, I never respond, reply all. Because seven other people have opinions on this email.

And I don't want to color someone else's opinion by me saying, I think it could be better. So even if, like, it's important that when you give notes to someone or you give opinions, that you recognize that you could be wrong. Because it's so easy to go in thinking that you know everything, even if you're following the rules and doing all the math or whatever of writing, you know, it's easy to walk in

and think you know the answer and still be wrong. It's all up to interpretation. And, you know, I'll always hear someone out and, you know, take it into consideration. But at the end of the day, like, if I didn't feel like it was logical or I just didn't think it was the best fit,

like it's up to interpretation at the end of the day. Yeah. Tell me. me about your artist's career so my artist career um long overdue um i'm planning on putting out something at least by the end of the year do you do it on your own or do you have a yeah i mean like you know i do work with other producers but like no i mean like i know we talked about the creative part but the label side uh yeah right now i'm i might go through a distributor but right

Now I want to do it by myself. I don't think I want to go to a major label. Is that by choice? Yeah. Yeah. I think we probably know some people that we could help you out if you want to deal, deal. Well, we'll talk after this. Well, look, thank you for doing this.

Thank you. I mean, I think it's so important for, you know, for, you know, the last interview that I did in this room. New York, which will be coming out next season is with a band that sold like 80 million albums and, you know, the next person that I'm interviewing next week has like, I think, 17 Grammys. Jeez. Something like that. And these, you know, but, you know, to, they got those because they're, you know, to,

they got those because they're, you know, you know, 50, 60 years old and have been doing it for so long. And it's so important to make sure that we don't always just talk about what people did in their careers, as amazing as that is, but to talk to people about what they're doing. Right. You know, and the conversation you and I are going to have in five years from now is a totally different thing. You've only been writing in LA for two years, you said. You know what I mean?

That's just a crazy discography to have. Like, you can't even predict the kind of things that you're going to do. And you might end up in movies just the same way that you aim for a... I don't know. I can't say that a number one song in Top 40 is going to be worth more than a number one movie in the box office. But you weren't aiming for that. Right. And sometimes it's like... It's exciting to watch somebody walk through doors at this point in your career because you're walking through the biggest doors and you're holding it down enough that you end up being a part of it.

So thank you for being a part of this podcast. But, you know, thanks for being my new friend. Of course. Of course. We can hang. We can write top 40 songs. Let's do it. All right, awesome.

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Anne the Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg'sma, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross.

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