And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 9: Bonnie McKee

Episode Date: March 27, 2017

In an industry that has historically been dominated by men, this songwriter has been tearing down ancient gender barriers in the music business for over decade. She has made a name for herself as a co-writer of numerous #1 hits, all while with her own flourishing artist career to boot. Collaborator on massive songs such as Katy Perry's "Teenage Dream", "Last Friday Night (T.G.I.F.)", "California Gurrls", "Roar", as well as the Britney Spears hit "Hold It Against Me" and Taio Cruz's "Dynamite", there no question that this creative mind has songwriting skills of the highest caliber. And The Writer Is...Bonnie McKee!   Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, this is, and the writer is. And I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of writers and artists over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life and the industry, politics, composition, whatever. If you ask me, songwriters are some of the most worldly and intelligent people I've ever come across. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs. And most importantly, who the people are who write songs.

write the songs. Now I'm co-producing this with my friend Joe London, who was nominated for a Grammy earlier this year for Best Country Song. He makes us sound like angels. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, go to Spotify and look up our playlist and The Writer Is, or go to our website www. and the writer is.com.

And last thing, if you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us on whatever your preferred podcast listening site is, whether it's iTunes or it's one of the others. We appreciate that effort and thank you. Today's writer and artist is one of the most successful in the last 10 to 15 years. She's really remarkable on a number of levels. But let's start by what I just said.

She. The songwriting industry isn't filled with women like it should be. I would say that there should be as many female writers as there are female artists, which tends to be about 50-50. But that's not what it is. It tends to be more of a boys club. And yet, Bonnie's been able to hold her own with the very best of the boys.

Dr. Luke, Max Martin, Benny Blanco. And she's been able to do that while writing lyrics with the biggest artist. Katie Perry, Bernie Spears, etc. And yet what she's done that's most impressive, in my opinion, is that she's taken her money and put it where her mouth is. Which is really difficult, I think a lot of people who say they want to be artists, they're waiting for that record label to do all the work. But no, Bonnie goes and she gets her music videos made. She gets her licenses for her songs. She gets her radio play. She does it because

she believes in herself. And that's the only way you're going to make it if you're an artist. You have to believe in yourself first and foremost. But when she is writing for other people, she always brings her A-game, always brings it 100%. And that's why the stuff that she writes with Katie Perry, who's also a great writer, why that stuff sounds so authentic? And why sounds so big. See when Bonnie shows up, she's not trying to write a pop song. She's trying to write the best song. Anyway, I want you to hear from

her. So without further ado, here is Bonnie McKees and the writer is. I'll do the proper intro that I have prepared for you. Okay, ready? Let's go. Welcome to and the writer is.

I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's artist has not only developed her own artist's career. but has been instrumental in the development of many others. She's written 10 number one songs and has received a Grammy nomination for Song of the Year. She's written with the Titans of the Music Industry because her lyrics are unmatched.

From the Pacific Northwest, this writer paints with words as evident in some of her classic copyrights. And the writer is, the only person I've ever written a song with an Delta Lounge, Bonnie McKee. Hello. Cool. Was it 10 songs, right? 10 number one songs?

Two of them were in the UK, but. Who's counting? Do you have platinum records for all of them, like plaques? No. Do you have plaques at all? I have one plaque for dynamite in my house, and then I have a plaque for all of the KD songs. Do they send them to you or do you have to buy them?

I had to buy them, yeah. That's the biggest sham in the music industry. It's really ridiculous. I try to like cope with it by just not buying them. Yeah. But then I sit there and I'm like, really want one because, you know, a 12-year-old to me would be really disappointed

if he knew that 35-year-old me is... I feel weird about... I mean, because I have all these BMI Awards and stuff too. Right. And I just... They're just kind of sitting on the floor in my house. Like, I don't really hang them up. Right. I have a couple of them up just because I'm like, eh, did stuff. Sure. But I feel

self-conscious about it. And I also, I have this Katie Perry plaque that has, like, all these crazy numbers on or whatever. And it's beautiful and has, like, the cover of Teeny Stream and everything. But it's huge. And I'm like, I'm like, I don't really want this in my house. Like, I don't really need to look at that every day. And I don't really know if I want it in my studio, like, hanging over me.

You know what I mean? So I'm like, do I really want to, like, live and die by that? Like, not really. It's funny. A lot of people say that if you have the, either the plaques act as a demotivator, they may impress a lot of people when they walk in. But for you, they can also be a demotivator because you look at it and you think, I mean, either I've already done this.

Yeah. Or you're sitting there being like, how do I map? this again. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's a weird mind fuck kind of so it's just like turned backwards on the floor against the wall of the studio. Does that scare you the idea of feeling like you have to match that

era for you? It doesn't scare me. I mean, every time I write a song, I'm like will I ever write a good song again? Or like every time I've ever had a hit, I'm like, is this the last hit I'll ever write? Because it very well could be. You know, the fact that I've had any hits at all is a miracle.

Right. So I'm really blessed to have had so many And, you know, there's a good chance that I might never write a hit again. You know, that's like statistically speaking, pretty likely. Right. So I have to like make peace with that, you know. Do you know when you write a hit? I think I know. I think I write hits all the time.

Yeah. And then no one else hears it. And I'm like, oh, I must be crazy. Well, I mean, obviously some people hear it because you've done it 10 times. Yes, yes. Well, I mean, it's different, though, writing a hit when you're not in the room with Max Martin. Right.

Because when you're in there with Max Martin, everyone's like, oh, this is a hit. Yes. Well, Max Martin wrote on it, so it's a hit. Right. And they're right. Sure. And it's just different when you're doing it on your own and kind of building a name for myself just as a songwriter on my own without the dream team, so to speak, is what we

called it, me and Katie and Max and Luke. It's harder to tell if it's a hit or not because you don't have that kind of stamp of like the godfather of pop on it, you know. Yeah. Have you had, have any of the 10 songs been without them? Yes, two of them. How We Do for Rita ORA. Uh-huh.

And I don't care for Cheryl Cole. What did that feel like having those? Did those have a different feeling because you did it on your own? Yeah, I was really proud of it. That I Don't Care song, which by the way was not the title that I wanted for it. My title was called Waking Up Diagonal, which is a much more interesting title. That's really funny. And that song was originally for me.

And I wrote it with Johnny Newman, who was a very dear friend and one of my favorite co-writers. Sure. And Yochia from the Teddy Bears in Sweden, where we've done a bunch of stuff together. Right. And so it was both of their first number ones, so I was very happy for that. But I was heartbroken to give it up. I really did not want to give it up. And they changed a few lyrics to kind of more suit her.

And I was like really, really bummed about it because I wanted it for myself. And I wrote it from a personal place. Right. But, you know, I was not going to rob them of that. And then they both got to have the number one song. So, you know, I was just trying to be a team player. But still, when I hear it, I cringe. Are you able to celebrate the success of, you know, when you have a number one song,

are you celebrating? Or is it sort of, I mean, when you have that many, it's hard. It's kind of, is there like, is there empathy fatigue? Well, you know, it's funny. Or because now, do you know what I mean? It's funny. I have been seeing, you know, Julie Michaels and Justin Chandler. been having great success. I'm so happy for them. And, you know, he's been working for so long.

I've been a fan of his since his band. And I see them, like, having lots of number one parties on the internet, you know, how you look at other people's lives. And I'm like, fuck, I don't know that I ever had a number one party. Like, I never got a party. I'm just like, so maybe I'll just throw a pity party and just, like, poor me. I never got in my 10 number one parties. That's pretty funny. There's, oh, my God, I shouldn't say that I know this, but I do. in sex in the city when when Carrie has a like a non-bridle shower

or non-baby shower because she was like everyone else has to keep buying gifts for everybody else but what if she doesn't want to get married or she doesn't want to have a kid you know like can't you be like you know this is my

this is my you could throw a party for whatever reason let's just throw a party because we're creative people and we you know pull things out of thin air we're magicians essentially yeah yeah yeah She just have magic parties. I always say that we're illusionist because we, people think it's magic, but we're sitting there, you know, we're sitting there really calculating how it sounds, so that way you think it's magic. But I don't know.

I also, you know, every once in a while you hit when that one song is just amazing. And it's that's where it's, you do all the math correct on a lot of songs and you think it's a hit, but it just doesn't have the magic in it. Maybe that is the magic in it. It's the illusion. that works is magical. Well, I definitely remember after we wrote Teenage Dream,

we were listening back to the vocal after Katie Cut It, and I was in the room with Max Martin, and we just listened to it, and the song finished, and he looked at me and he said, I wish we could bottle this feeling. And I was like, what feeling?

And he was like, when you know you wrote a hit? And I was like, is that what this feeling is? Yeah. Oh, okay, because nothing had come out yet, you know? Did you know that that was,

at that point had you had other hits at that point? None of the songs had come out yet. No, nothing had come out yet. So that's really funny. I was in a session this weekend with a girl who had never been in a session with like a big artist. And it was, she came in and she said the last day to the artist. She goes, this is the best weekend of my life. Oh.

You know, and you're sitting there and you're like, oh, yeah, I forgot. This is, I know it's special. I don't want to say that I take it for granted, but you don't realize when you're with Max Martin, period. That's it. That could be the end of the story. But you don't realize what kind of opportunity that is. Oh, my God, yeah. Well, I remember when I went up to, we recorded all those songs in Santa Barbara. And when I wrote them, I was broke.

Like, no cell phone. My cell phone got turned off. I didn't have a car. I had to borrow my boyfriend's car to drive up there. And actually, when I got there, my cell phone was turned off and I didn't even know how to find everyone. I'm like wandering around the four seasons in Santa Barbara. Like, well, I hope I run into Katie. like and um yeah and you go to the desk and you're like by any chance to you and they're like i don't think

i can tell you that but luckily i found them and we went in and and cut teenage dream or you know continued to write it that night sure and um you know i was living in a shithole apartment in l.a at the time and and then i go into this beautiful suite with like a huge bathtub and like the minibar is all set up and like everything's all perfect and i got in the bathtub and just cried to tears of joy. Oh yeah, cute. I just was like, finally. But how do you get the invite? I knew Katie from years before. We were both starving artists together before she was Katie Perry. Did she know, you know, trouble? Did she know your, like, did she know, like, baby Bonnie? Yeah, she knew baby Bonnie. She actually, that's how we met. I had put out an album on Warner Brothers.

Right. And I was, I lived off of Melrose and I was at Wasteland on Melrose selling clothes because I was running out of my record advanced money. And she approached me and said, you're Bonnie McKee, right? And I said, yeah. And she said, I'm a big fan of yours. And I love your song. Confessions of a teenage girl. It inspired my song, one of the boys.

And I was like, oh, cool. And we were kind of fast friends. And I listened to it. And it was like, oh, yeah, like, we have kind of similar style. Was she signed at the time? So is she like, hey, this is one of my songs here? like, I have no idea who you are. Or is this sort of like, I have, I wrote a song that was inspired by you, and I'm signed a capital.

I think she had just gotten dropped or she was just about to get dropped from her first record deal. I don't, I forgot she had. Who was her first deal with, you know? I don't remember. But she's get. I have no idea. That sounds right. But, yeah, so she was just like, yeah, I'm a big fan.

And we were fast friends and would just get wasted together. lot and go shopping and trade ideas and tell each other all our secrets. Right. And then she met Luke and they made the first album. Right. And then they called me on the second one. That's crazy. Were you at this point signed as an artist?

I was signed when I met Katie and then I got dropped shortly thereafter. From Warner. Yes. And then how does that work when you get a call to go in and work with Katie who you're friends with how did that tell me about that time a little bit um well some time went by when she was making the album where we weren't speaking for a minute and that second album no the first one oh the first one okay because the second album was teenage dream right um and i and then luke wanted to sign me and i was signed to pulse he wanted to sign you as an artist um yeah and as a writer and so he the first thing he

brought me in on was katy how did he know about you from katea from katea Interesting. Yeah. So then you guys aren't talking just socially or? It's a long story, but we worked it out. Okay. Okay, fair enough. And then you go in, Luke brings you in to be a writer.

And you go in and you have your first meeting with Luke. What's that like? I had met him socially with Katie out. Okay. I remember the first time I met him he was wearing like a track suit. Nice. Cool. Really mid-2000s like hip-hop.

Run DMC sort of stuff. Yeah. That's fine. And yeah, he brought me in. I think I did some like practice sessions with him where he kind of brought me in and threw me some like throwaway tracks to see what I could do. Sure. And then he brought me in on the Katie stuff. They had started part of me.

So part of me was part of me the song? Yeah. So that's before all the other ones? Part of me was the first song that I wrote with them. So they had started it, but they got stuck. And so he called me in. I don't think Katie wanted me there I know Katie didn't want me there

She because we have we've always had a healthy rivalry Sure It's like sisters you know But it's nothing but love She's been very supportive of me and I'm incredibly grateful So no hard feelings No it's just girls Girls that have been friends for years

Totally yeah I think if people Haven't lived in Hollywood It's also hard to understand being In your early 20s in Hollywood Yeah. Because that will... It's a shark tank.

I'm still close with all my friends from then, but even guys, like, you're just, it's like this weird ego battleground of people trying to make it both career-wise, socially, personally, and you have these moments of just, it's just clawing through your early 20s, surviving off of selling air for a living or being an actor and whatever it is and you just, the stories that you have from being in Hollywood are just nuts

if you lived in your 20s there. Yeah, yeah, it's intense. It's very intense and very competitive and, you know, I think it's kind of like keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer. Right. A lot of, yeah. You're like, well, what's this person up to?

I don't want to know what they're doing. Right, yeah. So you get called in and they're working on part of me and you're like, oh yeah, I know the answer. Yeah, I came in and they were stuck And she was kind of like, hey And I was like, oh, so you got engaged Oh, that's cool, yeah, lots happened, huh?

And then she was like, look, I'm exhausted, just Give it a shot Like, I'm gonna leave you here overnight, see what she can do Where this was in Santa Barbara? No, this was at Conway Okay And I mean, she knew I was talented She was obviously a fan from the beginning

And we have very similar styles There's a difference It made sense Yeah So she left me there overnight I literally was at Conway all night I think it was the first time I ever worked at Conway and they

and I don't know I cracked the code I cracked the code on it and they came back in the morning and she was like let's see what you did and she listened to it and she was like okay okay and she's like you're getting a car you're getting a car we're going to get you a car and then it was like we were back to be in best friends you know so that was when we knew it was a good chemistry

Right. You know, because she didn't change. I mean, that's the last song out of it, the singles, in the run of singles, that was like the last of that album, right? Yeah, it was on the deluxe, I think. I don't know if it was on the actual album itself. And it's still on number one. It's just, you know, at that point, I guess you're just shitting number one. So, so to speak.

There's probably another way to say that. Sorry. That was just in the right room with the right people. You know, it was like that perfect storm. Yeah, no, but that's not real. That's not how that works. because I've been in the room with a lot of the right people before, and it doesn't, you know, it also could have been me.

But that's the point is that if I'm in that room, as much as I'd like to think that, yeah, I could round out a room with Luke and Max and Katie and, yeah, I could just come in and do those lyrics. I can't. That's not what I do. And those aren't the lyrics that I do. It isn't a given that just because you're in the room with those people

that you write a hit. You know, I think there has to be a moment, especially with something like Teenage Dream, which is you had obviously a ton of hits on that record. But that record seems to be the one that everyone goes back to, you know? That's not a throwaway lyric. That's not, I just showed up and wrote a lyric. That must have taken so much time. Yeah, I did. Yeah.

Teenage Dream was one of the most difficult songs I've ever had to write. For many reasons. one is that we we rewrote it five times there were five versions of it with completely different lyrics Do you remember the other lyrics?

Yes, one of them was we knew we wanted it to be a nostalgic love song And so one of them was I don't know We always give Katie like a She gets the first run at it And then if it works

Then they keep it obviously And then if she wants my help Then they call me And so it was You make me feel like I'm born again. All brand new. Come on, Pete a pan. And it was about, like, eating ice cream for breakfast.

And, like, but it was all, it was very young. And then we tried one that was like, it was something about, like, try me on. It was kind of like dress you up in my love, like sort of like a clothing, shopping, girly thing. But again, it was just a little young, you know. Try me young. Yeah. Yeah.

Sure. You hear it, right? Yeah. And then just some kind of more bland things. throwaway versions and then I had to like really sit down with myself and be like this is like this is your shot it was like my M&M 8 mile moment yeah yeah and so I went off by myself and just like studied and just like I was like what what's nostalgic what was it like for me like what was my first love like and I went back into my own 90s adolescence and thought about like Romeo and Juliet with Leonardo

DiCaprio and Claire Danes and like me thinking about my first kiss and what I I wanted it to be like with the disco light in the room and the gap-scented candle and, you know, all of these things. Gap-scented canda. Heaven was my favorite. And, you know, I just kind of tried to go back to that time when love and kissing and stuff was like so magical. And I remember I actually watched an episode of my so-called life. And there was one episode, like after she had her first kiss with Jordan Catalan or whatever, she's like in class like daydreaming like you know not paying attention and her internal monologue is like

when it comes to time there's there's time when you're kissing and there's time when you're not kissing yeah that's what it feels like where it's like everything in your world just goes away except for that one moment so i wanted to try to capture that and um also i was talking to benny blanco about it because he made the track and he was like i don't know something's kind of young and whatever and he was like, check out this band The Teenagers. And there was like some song by The Teenagers. It's like a French group. It was literally just them talking like Valley Girls.

Right. I was like, oh my God, I went to mall and like this thing happened and da-da-da-da-da. And then I was like, teenager is such a good word. Right. Like you see so much with one word. Right. And teenage is even less syllables. Sure.

And I could just paint a whole picture with one word. Right. So that's kind of what I built it around. Sure. was that after part of me? Then yeah, obviously it was. So was it, do you remember though? I mean, you go from Teenage Dream.

Well, let's, first you go and you show the lyrics. What was their reaction? Well. Did they, when they saw it, like, this one's it. Or did they say, write another one. And then you have to go back. And then you say, no, I swear, this one was good. No, we had done all these versions.

And we had kind of settled on one of the sort of in-between mediocre, safe ones. And I drove up, I was like, I came up. up with it and then I was driving up to Santa Barbara and I was continuing to write it in the car my way up and recording it on my voicemail on my flip phone. Yeah, sure. Um, because I could still do that, but I couldn't call anybody. And then, um, I got up there and was like, guys, I think I cracked it. I think I got it. And they were like, we don't want to hear it. We decided on the chorus. Just finish the fucking verses. We're over it. We're done with you. Just finish the verses. And what was the song called at that point? Do you remember? I don't remember. Right. It was just something. And they're like, no, no, no, trust me.

They were like, no, we don't want to hear it, just focus on the verses. And I was like, okay. So I went in and Katie and I were ping ponging back and forth on the verses. And I said, you know, you think I'm pretty without any makeup on. And she had this, you know, build a fort out of sheets thing. Right. My missing puzzle piece. And she had all these great ideas.

And I told her about teenage dream. I was like, Katie, listen. I had this idea coming up. Like, what do you think about this? I knew she was going to love it because we have the same brain. and she was like oh my god that's it like nailed it and i was like okay we got to we got to sell it to max and luke now because a lot of times it was me and katie versus max and luke

and we kind of had to talk them into our ideas um so we went in together and i was like okay guys like i think i think we got it and then i sang it to them and max mary and looks at me and goes well why didn't you say so oh my god so and then everyone was like that's it boom got it great sure and then that kind of transformed the whole thing what was um In that environment where you're walking in and it seems like there's a no first policy, if you're going in and saying, like, I have this idea and they're like, we don't want to hear it, just do this. You know, do you find that that box allows you to be more creative or does that actually hinder the creativity?

I learned so much. And I'm so grateful that I started out with Max and Luke because it is a very regimented formulaic way of writing. and that pushes me to learn to get creative within a smaller frame, which is harder to do than just like, oh, just write anything you want and it's just free flow and whatever. Like, anyone can do that. But to try to solve a million dollar word puzzle is more of a challenge. And I like that.

Yeah. And I appreciate the cleanliness of it. Yeah, the tidiness. I really love tidy pop music. When we were in Nashville, I was saying where I kept going there, and every time I would go there, I would try to trim up these lyrics so that they would fit what we do, where it's really symmetrical. And it's so it makes it more memorable, even if the rhythm is unique, but you still try to keep it symmetrical. But by trimming off some of the other words that you'd get in other genres, you lose the fat, which also has the flavor in it. Yes.

So it's hard to find flavor in a short amount of time. you know and there are other genres that thrive on that extra word totally you know you know it's funny I started out classically trained I grew up like meticulously classically trained I was in choir and all that and so I really had to unlearn that right and then I learned how to make pop music and then I learned how to write a perfect tidy pop song and now I'm unlearning that interesting I'm glad that I have why are you unlearning because things have changed you know for you as an artist or you as a writer or you as a writer or in the industry. In the industry. I think the sound

has changed. Things are looser now. Things are more it's just more abstract in a lot of ways, which I appreciate. And that's what I love about pop music is that it's constantly evolving. Sure. And that makes it the most challenging genre, I think of all. And people

think the pop music is just, oh, you're so stupid and simple and throwaway, but it is the most difficult genre because it is constantly changing. Yeah, everyone thinks. thinks they can write a pop song until they try it. And then you realize, oh, yeah, you're trying to speak to, you know, 100 million people a week. If you have a number one song, you're at 100 to 150 million people a week in that one radio

genre, have to all hear it. And it has to be edgy enough to cut through. And yet, you know, there's this such a tiny, tiny tightrope to walk. Yeah. Well, that's, yeah, the hard part is finding that flavor that's unique. because I can write a canned pop song. I can write 20 them in a day. It's easy.

It's finding that one X factor that's a little bit different that sets it apart. And that's where the value of lyrics are that, I mean, I guess this is sort of one in quotes topliner talking to another, that there are so many tracks that can sound edgy. But you can't go to radio with just music and you need a song. And even that melody that's amazing, unless it's I want it that way, it really. really, you know, without an edgy lyric or a smart lyric, it doesn't go anywhere. Yeah. I mean, I think that's sort of what, like, on that album, the TGIF record is the one that's like, lyrically, how you got away with some of that is pretty remarkable.

Because as much sex as there might be in Teenage Dream, the TGIF one, only because I know, like, we have some friends in common and that that time in Hollywood, like that's not as fictional as people think. Do you know what I mean? You go to some of these, you go out on a Saturday at that time and or a Friday, better yet, you know, you go out and some of those stories seem much more nonfiction than fictional. TGIF is Katie and I. talking about our lives.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absolutely autobiographical, and most of those things happened. Yeah. And, yeah, like, when we met, I was like, I was dawned, the barbecue queen. I was always having crazy barbecues. I still do, to this day, for whatever reason. That's my specialty. Yeah.

And were you living in the same house at the time and everything? No, I was at a weird little house off of Melrose. The barbecue house off of Melrose. Yes, the first barbecue house. Cool. And I've evolved since then. Right. But yeah, we would get crazy, and that's what that song was about.

And luckily, we just have a really colorful life. We both did, and we had such a similar kind of aesthetic, as far as pink flamingos in the pool and smelling like a minibar and my favorite party dress. Sure. Oh, yeah, the ginger ale line. That's one of my favorite ones. I think I need a ginger ale.

That was such an epic feel. I was really proud of that one. It's fun when you hear a lyric out in the universe, when you know that it's really about you. Yeah. I don't necessarily crave being an artist, but I know that when I have those lyrics out there and an occasional lyric that really describes my life,

and it's like, that's clearly about, you know. I always say about my house is always really about how Jackie and I don't go out. Right. You know? And so it's so shocking. I love that song. Thank you. I was in a car with you the first time I heard it.

Oh, my God. radio. We were, we had to smash. Thank you. But we just, like, the fact that, I think one of the things that I'm learning about it, and you've gone through it a lot, but is how fleeting it is. That I was, the last time I was with you, it was, it was the first time I heard it on

radio when we were in the car and I was like, oh my God, put it on. And, you know, we were driving in Nashville. And I was like, this is, this is, that's cool that this song is here. And then, you know, it's probably going to dip, you know, this week for the first time. And it's the arc of a song. And after a while, you know, in two years from now, it's like, that was the moment of that song. Yeah. But you want that bottling up thing.

You want to bottle it up, but you can't. Yeah. Which probably makes it more enjoyable. Mm-hmm. You know? If it just stayed, you would just get complacent. Yes. You know?

Yeah. I still get excited when I hear Teenage Dream or California Girls on radio. Of course. And probably more now. Yeah. I'm like, oh, look, it still has a life. Yeah. One of the questions I wanted to ask you, because we haven't had other girls on this.

And it's not because I'm sexist. It's not because I'm misogynistic. It's that there aren't a lot of girls in the industry. I know that there are. But I don't know. I guess I know why, but I don't know why. Why are there so few girls that are producers? Why is it is it really hard as a girl or is there an advantage to being a girl?

What makes a girl successful in this industry versus not? Interesting. That's a super complicated question. There are, yeah, there are not a lot of female producers. I don't know why that is. I honestly have only worked with a few and they were great, but I don't know if that's just, I don't know. Probably girls aren't encouraged to do that. And they're told that's a boy's job.

which I hope that we have more women challenging that. Sure. I personally have tried my hand at producing. I mean, I produce in the old school sense where I can sit next to someone that's making all of the music and go do this, do that. So, like, I have production ideas, but as far as building tracks,

I'm just not good at it. It's just not my forte. Even as a writer, I'm not good at it either, but even as a writer, like, what's it like when you walk in a room? Writer or producer, I mean, just being a girl in the music industry, Do you find that when you walk in a room that people listen to you with more respect, less respect, different respect? What happens for a girl? Because I've never had this issue, you know, one way or the other.

I haven't seen the advantages or disadvantages. Well, it's changed for me, obviously. In the beginning, it was much harder. There's a lot of sexual harassment, a lot of that. But you just kind of, I mean, sad to say, you sort of get used to it and you kind of live. learn how to read a room and know what time of day is appropriate. What do you mean this? What do you mean?

Like there's some people that I won't go to night sessions. Oh, interesting. Because people are drinking and things get rowdy. Right. And there are some people that just don't respect that or say a lot of sexist things or whatever. There's just a lot of that. I am just kind of numb to it and I just don't care because I know I'm a fucking boss. Right.

And you've been in it for a long enough probably Yeah, that's the thing is that now, like people sit up when I'd come in the room, people listen to me because I've proven myself. But there were many years where I thought it wasn't the case and I really had to like fight my way to the top. But it can be, I think it's an advantage as far as other female artists.

Sometimes it's an advantage, sometimes it's a disadvantage. I personally am really good with women. I love working with other women. Sure. And I feel like I can kind of capture what they want to say, lyrically. And they can relate to me and they can open up to me and feel comfortable with me. On the other hand, there are some artists, big ones that I've worked with that don't like women,

that don't like working with women. They feel intimidated or challenged, yeah. And, you know, I'm always dressed up and, like, wear a lot of makeup and whatever. And so I'll be conscious of that. Like, if I go on with a girl that I know is going to be weird, I'll just go in sweats. And just like not try at all and just be like, I am only here to serve you. Right. I mean, I don't need to shine today.

Right. And I'm fine with that. That probably took a lot of practice to realize, oh yeah. Yeah, no, I had to have a few bad days and be like, oh, okay, this is not good. I should not come in acting like star. I shouldn't come in like an artist. Because it's not about you that. It's not about me.

Yeah. Yeah. Are you able to, because, you know, something like teenage dream seems like a personal lyric. when you go into these sessions and you're wearing sweatpants, you know, are you writing still from that perspective of, is it still coming from a personal place even with the other person in the room? Or do you have to, or do you also end up letting that person lead the lyric train? It depends on the artist, but like, for example,

when I came in and did part of me for Katie, when I was writing the verses, again, we hadn't spoken for like a year. and a half. And she had blown up in that time. And so I really wanted to hone in on what I thought she would be feeling. And one of my favorite lyrics in that song is I just want to throw my phone away and see who's really there for me. And that was how I was imagining. Because a lot of our friction and stuff had to do with that with like, oh, fame and like, do you only want to be friends with me because I'm famous? And there's a lot of weird shit like that in Hollywood. And do you find that as a writer? I mean, there aren't

that many writers that are more famous than you are. Do you still get just hit up by random people? Do you have to deal with? Or does it not work that way? Not on the level that other people do, obviously. But, I mean, there are people around that my close friends will be like

that person is an asshole. And I'm like, really, they're so pleasant. I've never had anything weird. And they're like, yeah, well, they're kissing your ass. And I'm like, they are? Like, I don't even know, you know. So, yeah, there's some of that. But for the most part i you know people don't know who i am right you don't really you were telling a story about you know um when you were saying how you got home from working on femme fatale from being in

Vegas and uh being super hungover and that's i don't know 2012 right 2011 something like that so you're multitasking in writing you have like 10 hits and or i think you have you have I've had what, seven or eight number ones within a year and a half. Something just crazy. Were you dealing, why were you dealing with it with alcohol and drugs? Is that how you were coping with it? Or is it just, you were doing it anyway and it just sort of was peaking at that time? Was it a coincidence that everything was going number one at that time?

Do you know what I mean? You know, honestly, when things started blowing up for me is when I, I mean, when I was working on Fem Fetal, I hadn't had a bunch of hits yet. Sure. Like, hold it against me was like my third number one or something that hadn't even come out yet. Right. So it was like, I was still in my like fighting to make it kind of place. But honestly, when things started going well for me is when I started wanting to get sober.

Right. Because I wasn't sad anymore. I mean, there's always like, I have a deep sadness in me, Ross. It will never be healed by any. number of number one songs. But, um, why? I just felt. Why do you have this deep sadness?

Um, I don't know. I don't know. I think that's part of what makes me, an artist. You were 15 years old when you had. Yeah, that's true. But you were 15 years old and you were already able to put your voice out there. Was this, is this sadness from before that? Yes.

Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. When I made my first album, I was, when I first got signed, I was 16. I moved to L.A. by myself. And I was like, all of my troubles are over. my horrible sad life is over now. Much to my dismay, it was only beginning

because moving to Los Angeles on your own at 16 with $2 million in your pocket is not really a recipe for like a happy life. But yeah, I thought that all of my woes would be over because I got a record deal. And I see a lot of artists that think that where they're like, oh, I got signed, I can relax. Like, absolutely not.

Everyone has a record deal. That's the easy part, you know? It's making something out of it, making it work. Sure. So, yeah, there've been like many, I've had a difficult life. I've had a lot of personal struggle. Right. And it's really a miracle that I'm still alive, to be honest.

Right. I mean, you go into how is getting sober, how possible? I mean, at that point, you're still the girl who had $2 million at 15 blows it from being in L.A. And not knowing the value of that. Yeah. And then, but then all of a sudden you have this massive success, I could see it getting out of hand, but it doesn't. Instead, what was the moment that you decided this is one I'm supposed to get clean? Well, I was humbled. I had all that money. I was an industry darling. Everyone was talking about me and I was the next big thing and whatever. And then it didn't pan out. And then I was stuck at Warner Brothers for six years and only put one album out. I was beaten down. humbled. Sure. So when I got it again, when it started happening again, I valued it so much more.

And I really was like, I can't fuck this up. I can't fuck this up. I'm not going to get a third shot. Right. So I had so much on the line. You know, I was dealing with Dr. Luke and Max Martin and all of these like big names and like complicated contracts and like kind of manipulative crazy people. And I just needed to have my head on straight. because I knew that it was, I was easy to be taken advantage of. And I was signing things that would affect me for the rest of my life. Right. And I was working on things that were going to define me and define my career. And I knew that I needed to be clearheaded for that. Now that you look back on that era of sort of signing through all these contracts,

is there things that you would do differently? I don't think I could have. I don't think there's anything I could have done differently. I think that I got the best deal that I could. I've gotten at the time. Sure. I was nobody. I had nothing going on.

And, you know, Luke took a chance on me. Sure. And Luke's deals are famously bad. Everybody knows that. That's fine. He's a brilliant businessman. So he's getting his. That's fine.

And he gave me my career. And I felt that it was a bit of a deal with the devil. But most of these deals are. Right. You know, it's just the face changes. Yeah. And it was a necessary deal and I don't regret it at all. It's that thing of realizing that it's not about how not to get screwed is understanding how you're getting screwed.

Yes, definitely. And the more you understand that, the more you can deal with, yeah, well, I mean, I signed it because look where I was when I signed it, not where I am now. You know? And the people who are willing to sign you at that point, they're getting more because they're signing you and they're taking a bigger risk. Absolutely. And I do think that's fair. Sure. I think that's absolutely fair. And so I'm incredibly grateful. And, you know, are there things that I wish I could change in my contracts? Like, yeah, of course. We all have that. But I understand why it is the way it is because I hadn't earned it yet. Sure. So I'm okay with it. Do you work with a lot of different, is it like when you're in a session

where you're the artist versus you being the writer, what's the difference of that? I mean, how do you feel like when you're sitting there and you know, this is my song and I'm not here to write a song to pitch. Do your co-writers get that? Do they know how to facilitate your song? Yeah, I have my handful of co-writers that I work on with my own project. For the most part, I don't like do a whole lot of outside writing for my own project because people are hesitant because I'm independent. And I understand as a professional songwriter what happens when you write a song for an independent artist, which usually is nothing. And people's time is valuable. And I understand that.

So I try to kind of keep that time for myself and only call upon really close friends and colleagues that I trust and I know are going to be into it. Because I have a lot of guilt about it where I'm just like, I don't want to waste anybody's time on my project. I just, I'm very self-loathing and I, whatever, I have a lot of self-worth issues that I'm working through now through hypnotism and shamanism. So, Oh, that's interesting. Do you go, do you have a shaman? I just went to this crazy retreat in the desert and did some like sound healing, which was interesting.

And, you know, I think part of like being self-loathing and whatever is just part of being an artist. And I think it makes me able to relate to people more. And I think things come out of me that wouldn't if I just thought I was Kanye all the time. Sure. But look at what his music's done since, as his, as his, His ego got bigger and bigger and the music became less interesting because you lost a vulnerability. And I think that it gets more into music and less about song and more about music and less about the lyric.

And I'm sure, you know, yes, Connie is a genius. It's fine what it is, you know. But there's an inverse relationship there. I think the more insecure you are, the more people can relate to you. Nobody's out there saying, I'm worth more than half the planet, in real life. And so you can say all that, but no one gives a shit. And they really want to hear that vulnerability. They want to hear the artist that's struggling through who they are in the world

and what it's like to go from rags to riches to rags to riches. They want to know those stories. and they want that honesty of what it's like to emotionally be on top and then at the bottom and the top and the bottom. They don't want to hear the guy who's like, I'm the shit all the time. Nobody cares about you. Yeah.

You know, most of the country is not doing well. Yeah. You know, or so we think. Or like has at least a bad days, let's say that. You know what song I love is the 21 Pilots song. Stress out? I mean, Jesus. Yeah.

Like the first time I heard, I was like, why? And that's what it's sort of about. Yeah. And even the first lines about like, I wish that I could put, you know, courts together in an order that was new. Like, first line, I'm like, yep, welcome to my life. Yeah. And then I wish I didn't have to rhyme every time I sing and then it doesn't rhyme.

It was just really brilliantly done. And also their other new song, I forget what it's called. Ride. Ride. Right. Yeah. Rookie produced that downstairs. Yeah.

I absolutely love that project. I'm excited to see what they do. It's really, really rare that I hear something on the radio. I'm like, I feel inspired. I want to know more about this. Did you feel like you wish you wrote it or did you hear that and you were actually thinking? I got to be a fan when I heard it. I got to be like, thank you.

It feels like music we kind of grew up with a little bit. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's like a little bit of trip hop in there. Yeah. And there's even like that sublime style of these lyrics are really honest and don't work in pop music. So when it works in pop music, you're like, I'm so envious. of that confidence from both the label standpoint

and the, you know, and the artists, you know, I mean, you want to work with labels that are willing to say, this is, this is great. What label are they on? I think they're on Atlantic. You know? They also have Melanie Martinez,

who's... I love her. Yeah. I could see you killing that project. I love her. I'm such a fan. I met her at Katie's Grammy Party, which was so much fun. It was only artists and producers and writers. No industry people.

Yeah. Was that that, what was it called? Didn't she have a name for it? Yeah, the creators. Creators, yeah. That was the most fun party, industry party I've ever been to. So great. Anyway, so she was there.

I wasn't invited. Okay, well, maybe next year. Where's my invitation? This keeps happening to me. Where's my invitation? My address is really the same, guys. My address hasn't changed. I don't know.

But yeah, I met Melanie Martinez there, and I just think she's so fascinating. And, you know, she's had a great platform with, she was on the voice, right? I don't know. Or, yeah, I think she was on one of those singing things, yeah. Because when I went online and I was looking at her videos, which I love so much, I was like, wow, these have a lot of views. And I was like, how is it? And then she came from TV. Well, she was a, she's got a lot.

I could see you getting really involved in it because there aren't a lot of, like, I can't, if somebody asked me for a video. treatment of a song, it will be terrible. It'll probably have a pug in it and like nothing else. You know what I mean? I don't know how to do videos. And she does, she directs all of her own videos. Oh, that's great. You know, and that's really your vibe in a lot of ways where it's like, I have an idea.

Here's a song, now I see it. And to me, I'm like, here's a song, I see nothing. And I hope that somebody else sees it. See, every, since I was a little girl, since I first started writing songs on as a little girl, I always paired it with a music video in my head. always saw the video. It explains your lyrics. I mean...

But it doesn't always have to. Like, that's... I think literal... literal ones are kind of a thing of the 90s. And... Literal videos. Where it's just like, here's the story that you're listening to. Right.

You know? But why is that the... That's not a 90s thing. That's like a 1950s son time going on stage thing. I mean, it's just putting it on camera. I mean, the idea of... It's essentially...

a musical. Like you see it as a musical, which I see it too. And I remember when people would say this is not, it's like they'd hear these songs. They'd say, yeah, but these lyrics don't work for TV because they're too descriptive.

They used to always say that. And I used to be like, well, what do you want it? You just want this bland lyric. I would much rather have the song. I'd rather hear TGIF than almost any song because I'm there in this story. I feel like I'm in the,

that you know I'm watching the movie I almost don't need to see the music video the music video is great but you almost don't need to because you're in the song yeah I yeah I appreciate a good story and good visual lyrics and they're so hard to come by yeah like I've been struggling lately because I honestly don't listen to a lot of music because I make it every day

so it's like a chore to listen to music a lot of times for me and what do you listen to then I mean I've been I listen to the radio just because it's my job and I need to see what's happening and whatever. And the occasional 21 pilots will happen and I'm like, oh, I'm glad that I turned that off. Refresher. Of course, now I'm sick of it because they're playing it so fucking much.

But there, or also I love my house. Like, I never change it when that comes on. I really love that song. I appreciate that. Thank you. So, but I'm like, okay, I need to get into Spotify. I need to get into the streaming thing. I need to like discover new music and whatever.

I listen to a lot of Alt-97. And there's some really cool stories. stuff on there that I find really inspiring, but then I'll go and like try to listen to the album. I'm just like, I don't know where to look for the shit. And then I'm like, oh, I like this one song and then I'll listen to the rest of it. And I'm like, the thing that's lacking for me, I just had this realization last night because I rushed home to get something on Spotify that I heard on the radio. And I was like, the lyrics aren't there.

Yeah. It's so hard for me to find something with the good lyric, which is why I love Lana Del Rey so so much. Yeah. I want every line to be a picture or like a real emotion. Like the filler shit, I can't do. Right. Like, there's a song out right now that I won't name because I probably know the people that wrote it.

Just knowing the circles or whatever. But I'm just like, guys, really, it's not that hard to, like, come up with something that rhymes with body besides body. That's really fun. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's just lazy. It's a thing when I listen to Tom Waits, who's like my idol, you know, or Merle Haggard. These people who have these really incredibly descriptive, like, you're pretty sure Merle Haggard will kill you.

I'm pretty sure that if I'm in a bar with that guy and I say something wrong, he'll just cut me. And I believe it. And I don't know if he's really like that. I mean, I've seen him live before. So he's a guy playing guitar. How vicious can he be? But I listen to Tom Waits and I'm like, I see the one-armed dwarf in Bangkok. Like I see this picture

It's just hard to get that To radio Like who wants to buy that besides me Do you know what I mean? I'm sure that exists And you see that with those Katie songs Then when you actually go and do cross over And start doing the descriptive lyric

And it does work That then you hit the jackpot Because you actually like You strike a chord with a generation that says oh, this describes my life. Yeah. Well, there's got to be a balance between interesting,

splashy, colorful lyrics and quality filler. There's got to be quality filler. Right. I feel like dynamite is quality filler. Right. And dynamite also,

for me, people don't realize this, comes from a much deeper place. For me, it was not a party song. I didn't write the verses. I wrote the hook. Right. But I throw my hands up in the air sometimes saying,

A.O. Got to let go. I want to celebrate and live my life, saying, eh, whatever. So that was about just throwing your hands up and giving in. Yeah. And like handing it over to God. Oh, wow. Interesting. Yeah. This was like a surrender song for me.

Interesting. And it's turned into like, though, you hand in air. Like it just doesn't care kind of thing. I love that. And I'm so glad that people interpreted it that way, but it came from a real place. But the point is... The best line of that, by the way, is sometimes. Because they used to be like...

That's an operative word. It's not like I throw my hands up in the air singing a-o. I throw my hands up in the air sometimes. There's a huge difference in that. That's the thing, because sometimes is like when shit gets bad. Right. Sure. You throw your hands up.

Right. No, I get that. I love that. I used to always be like, yeah, I mean, that's such like a bold, weird way to say that. You're not saying all the time. You're not saying, like, when the music's hot, when I'm like, when I'm feeling good. like, yes.

All right, now. It's just the realist. That's so funny. Yeah, well, that's because it comes from a like, when times are tough,

but you leave that part out because you want it to be a party song. But, you know, it's implied. That's the best thing of, this is, I think I'm trying to do that

better and better where you try to write, this is a, you know, this is a party song, but it's really, it's a funeral. And it's like,

this is what I want my, The chorus is about like, you know, welcome to my party kind of thing, you know? Or the idea that when you listen to it, that you feel that when you're listening and passing and you're driving, you don't even think about it. And then it's your 10th listen that you're like, oh, there's something spiritual about that. That when you're throwing your hands up that there's actually like a religious moment. Yeah. Are you religious? No.

I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. You have a shaman. I mean, is that... At the time, were you religious? No. No. It was just... It's just sort of like a fuck it.

Sometimes I feel like raising my hands because it's, you know, I can't take it anymore. It was a surrender song. It was a surrender song. Were you going through A at the time? Was there like some realization of... I think I was about to... I was about to... I was about ready to surrender to being an alcoholic.

Right. Right. At that time. Who was it? What was the straw? I think I was working so hard. I was working so, so hard. And I, like, lost friends because of it. I just had no life. I became, I was a complete workaholic. Yeah. And, you know, and when you work and work and work and there's never any fruits to your labor that can feel exhausting. Sure.

So I think it was kind of that sort of moment where it's just like, fuck it, I just have to. I just have to enjoy myself and just let the universe take the wheel. Do you feel like you're able to enjoy the fruits of your labor now? No. Why? Because I'm just tortured. I'm just really tortured. I feel like I've been writing that song so many times because I still work so hard and I still struggle.

Like not financially, not like, you know, I have a cell phone. I have a house. I'm okay. Right. But spiritually and artistically, I'm constantly at war with myself. What's success then? Like, what is it that you're like, ah, I did it? What would be that?

I think I'd like to have a number one song for myself as an artist. As an artist. And then you would do it and then you'd be like, okay, now I can be done. And then I'd be like, where's the next one? You know what? Somebody said to me yesterday, an artist who's done really well, And he says to me, he says, it's like having a really nice dinner.

You go in and you're like, I'm going to get the most expensive thing on the menu. And when you're able to afford it, you buy it and you taste it and you go, this was really good. And it's super anticlimactic. Nobody wants to hear about it. The next day you have to eat out of their food. You can still talk about it for a minute. But at some point, they're like, nobody's like, hey, how is that steak from?

two weeks ago. They're just like, and you have to cope with the fact that that was just a good meal at that time. That was a good moment. You know? But even if you're an artist and you have that, all it's going to do is make you want that second, third, fourth, fifth. That's something that I have to grapple with. Like, I have to make peace with that because I'm like, again, like statistically, it's unlikely that I would ever have another hit again. So I'm like.

As a writer or as an artist or both? Both. So I have to make peace with that. And I have to find my joy in something other than success. And I haven't learned how to do that yet because it's all that I think about from the moment I open my eyes to the moment I go to sleep at night. What if you just retired? I've thought about it. There's a part of me that I could see just saying, you know, this is, I've done really well.

Dope. Yeah. And just be like, and like I feel like all my friends in the industry would be like, fuck yeah. Do you know what I mean? If you said, you know what, guys? I think I'm done. I'm going to go and do like spiritual shit. I'm going to go live on the beach.

I'm going to go and do yoga every day. Yeah. No, I think. Everyone would be like, applaud you. Yeah, I think about that all the time where I'm just like, I'm so miserable so much of the time. I make myself so sick. Right.

Being so hard on myself and being such a workaholic and blah, da, blah, blah. Like, why? Right. How do I do this? And I've done a lot of, like, thinking and praying on that. And then I'm like, a life where I quit, because it would be quitting, it wouldn't be retiring, it would be quitting, I'd rather die. Like, I would rather, I cannot imagine a life where I'm not still trying. Right.

And so I need to really learn how to enjoy the journey more. Yeah. Because otherwise, I have a really miserable life. If you have a, that's true. I mean, if you have a hit as another, like, number one worldwide smash, and you probably will. I mean, I imagine that you're going to start working on, you know, I know Katie's going to be a good project always, and everyone wants to listen to that. I mean, yeah, if she calls me back. If she calls you back.

Well, Roared it all right. You know what I mean? It's not like you've had. It's not like you don't keep showing it. But even if it's not that, I mean, you'll have more success. You can't take away your talent. True. This is something that I've worked on is that.

my wife's been amazing with is that I've had some emotional issues dealing with a lot of success so where you think that because it's that steak thing. You're like, this is, just ate it. You know? Well, you know, it was all this work for that. But the idea, and I've always thought, like, I've been so used to people saying, you have the next single and then pulling it out from under me saying somebody else just got in, which we all deal with.

And sometimes you're the song that just got in. and all these things where it's like no one can take it away and learning to say that the talent and the ability for you to write some of these classic copyrights that that is the end goal is to develop you have a name where you're respected amongst your peers and to say that that is something that can't be taken from you no one no matter what happens no matter what kind of shady contract no matter who you've been in the room with,

no matter what issues you have with certain people, it doesn't matter. They can't take away the fact that you write the best pop lyrics, some of the best lyrics in the last 10 years, and they can't take that from you. Yeah, and you know, I think I had my first moment of peace, of like true peace in my life when I had teenage dream, California girls, and dynamite all in the top five.

At the same time. And I remember, like, sitting in my yard, in my new house, my brand new house, I just bought overlooking a lake, sitting by the pool and the sunshine in California, and just being like, I'm going to be okay. Yeah. I'm going to be okay. I can die happy because I know that I've made a mark on pop history. Yeah. And that's what I set out to do. Right.

I had a very brief time of serenity. Yeah. And that's gone. That moment. That's gone. That's funny. But that moment, that's really funny. But that, you know, that moment's still there.

Yes, no, I'm very... And it's like, if you still look and you see... If you still look up that week, it's still three songs that were in the top five. You know, last week I had two songs in the top ten. One of them dropped out this week. Maybe it'll climb back up. That's amazing. It's amazing.

So am I supposed to be sad that one of them dropped? out of the top 10? I know. Who the fuck am I? If I'm like, do you know what I mean? We have very high quality problems. They're high, right. And I think it's important that to take stock.

And if I can give it to you right now, it's the fact that when, you know, we're having, we're having the best writers that and some of the best people on this podcast because these are people that I admire, they're people that other people. admire. They're people that have managed to cut through an industry that is cut throat. And you have to be able to look at some of that success and be able to say that you reach Everest 10 times. Some people don't ever get there. And to say that your goal is to go

back up is just, it's admirable and you have to view it as somebody who's who, who can do it because you know you can and then not worry about the end thing i know it's easier to say from my position than yours you know in that place because i'm not you but yeah we all strive to keep them coming but you have to be able on occasion look at it and say that i mean you did it 10 times i know i'm very lucky i'm a lucky girl and i'm grateful i am very grateful yeah um and i can always I can always say that. Yeah, no one can take that away from me. It's just what's next. Right. Because one of my big fears is like, you know, there are lots of, I won't name any names, but there are lots of writers that have a great run and then they fall off. Sure. Sure. Sure. And like,

I don't want to be that girl. I don't want to be that girl. And like, the sound has changed, you know, like, which is why Katie might not call me back. Because that was an era. We defined an era and we killed it and we ruled pop music for five years or whatever but the sound has changed so she may not want to call me anymore she may want to call whoever's next and we know like the you know the matrix was the matrix

for a long time Lauren Chrissy is the number four song at radio right now or number three song at radio really? Yeah she's on the G EZ record no shit that's great you know what I mean it's like it's okay to have these like amazing moments

and you'll have them because they can't take away that talent. Even Max Martin fell off for a minute and then came back triumphantly with since you've been gone. And so, you know, there's. Don't know the song. So there's, I mean, I'm sure it's fine. But, you know, I always have that fear of just like, oh, God, what if that was it? What if that was the last day of wrote?

Right. You know. Right. It won't be. Thank you. Thank you. You're fantastic. Thank you so much.

It will all, I mean, I'm excited for when we do a reunion show in 10 years from now. And you're like, remember that time? And it's like you've had six more number one songs. You know what I mean? It's just like each one of those is a miracle. And you've managed to have 10 so far. And it's just, it really is the beginning if you can view it like that. Thank you.

Well, I hope so. And I'm, you know, like I said, I'll die trying. Yeah, I love it. All right, well, thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer Is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist

or visit our website at and thewriteris.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us on iTunes. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Bergsma, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to Jeff Sparger, David Silberstein from Mega House Music, and Michael White. Here's a sneak peek of next week's, and The Writer is. But I, you know, 10, 12 years of, you know, 8 to 10 bands, so many demos, so many, like, band

photoshoots in front of, like, the downtown courthouse, and just nothing but failure. And we went into the studio, recorded our first song. I went and laid down my vocal came back out into the control room and they pressed play and I was hooked. I literally called my dad and I said I know you just paid for four years of film school

but I'm going to go do music because this is my... What did he say to that? He was like, what the fuck? Did you guys seriously get in an argument about it? A little bit because he just spent all this money putting me through film school and it didn't seem like

trying to be a rock and roll musician was a worthy endeavor to support yourself. Until next time, this is Ross Golan.