And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 92: Jimmie Allen

Episode Date: August 10, 2020

The epitome of the phrase “persistence pays off,” today’s guest laid it all on the line to make his dreams a reality. This artist and songwriter moved to Nashville from Southern Delaware with $21 in his pocket. He lived in his car and worked multiple odd jobs waiting tables, making smoothies at a gym, stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, etc. Now signed to BBR Music Group’s Stoney Creek Records, a lifetime of never giving up has brought him full circle. His debut single “Best Shot” from his 2018 debut album ‘Mercury Lane’ is an RIAA certified Platinum hit that claimed the No. 1 spot on Country radio for three weeks. On the heels of that success, his second single “Make Me Want To” hit the No. 1 spot on the Country Airplay chart this year, marking the first time in history that a Black artist launched their career with two consecutive No. 1 singles on Country radio. His talent for songwriting is undeniable, with a knack for razor-sharp hooks and a love of deep messages. In 2019, he received his first ACM nomination for New Male Artist of The Year, a CMT Music Awards nomination for Breakthrough Video of the Year for “Best Shot” and won Breakthrough Artist-Writer of the Year at the 31st Annual MusicRow Awards. His current single “This Is Us” is a genre-defying track featuring Noah Cyrus has garnered 30 million streams – his fastest consuming single to date. It is featured on his new collaboration project, ‘Bettie James.’ Inspired and named after his late father and grandmother, the EP was co-produced and co-written by our guest and combined his deep love of family and wide ranging musical sensibility. It features collaborations with hitmaking artists such as Nelly, Noah Cyrus, Rita Wilson, Tim McGraw, Mickey Guyton, Brad Paisley, Darius Rucker, The Oak Ridge Boys, and more. To him, it is a musical composition of love, heartbreak, perseverance, hope, and faith. NPR calls the project an “announcement of his arrival” and a “huge step for country” while Billboard hails it “a powerful statement from a developing voice.” And The Writer Is… Jimmie Allen!This episode is sponsored by SESAC. Art: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and mega house music management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. For a little bit of context,

we just wanted you to know that a lot of these were recorded before quarantine. And as we know, a lot has changed in 2020. So again, please stay safe out there. and enjoy the new episodes of And The Writer is. This podcast is brought to you by CSAC, an industry leader and innovator in music performance licensing for over 80 years, CESAC has established strong relationships in the creative community by investing in the careers

of its top-tier affiliated songwriters and film and TV composers. To learn more about CESAC and its affiliated relationships with songwriters and composers, visit CESAC.com forward slash. Origins to learn more again to visit sysak.com forward slash origins welcome to and the writer is i am your host ross goling today's platinum songwriter artists appeared on just about everybody's one to watch list in the last couple years he has already had two country radio number ones this breakout star's journey has gone from living in a car to center stage of an amphitheater near you his style bridges the gap between country, R&B, and pop, or better yet, he just has a style of his own. From the great state of Delaware,

this father of two has reached the top of his profession by never quitting. And the writer is Jimmy Allen. Hello, hello. That was a long intro I think I've ever had. It was kind of like the Game of Thrones thing. Jimmy Allen, Father of Dragons, Defender of the Throats.

like all that stuff. If I couldn't, you know, it's like when we do, when we do this interview, this update in five years from now, and we've had five more years of number one songs, that's going to be a really annoyingly long intro. We'll just have to just keep doing these every few years. Gotta do it, man.

Gotta do it. So let's start from the beginning. You know, I don't know if we've ever had a guest from Delaware before. Never? I don't think so. I mean, I think we've had, you know, around 100 episodes. I don't think we've had a guest from Delaware. First, I love it.

So you've never had, like, Chuck Wicks on here or... Okay, cool. Well, then we're good. We're in there. I like that you just named one. Can you name three? Are there others here like, Chuck? What is the name from Delaware we got?

Me, Chuck Wicks. We got my boy Chad from King Calloway. Okay. You got Ziggy Marley. Ah. And that's it. Now, sports, we got one. Elena Deladon.

There you go. Yeah. There you go. We're slowly on our way up. Yeah. That's a small state. Okay, so let's, you know, tell me about your childhood. Man, childhood was cool, man.

What's your family? I grew up in this town, Milton, Delaware, when I was there, had 600. and and 50 650 people when I was there and it was small town living fishing, hunting

everybody going to church my dad listening to country music my mom just listening Christian music but we listen to everything like you know in our neighborhood country rock Christian

R&B hip hop Did they play music? No, my mom sings. My dad, no, he just, he was just, you know, small town. Good old boy, man. Just fish, hunt, play slopage softball, you know, did construction.

Did you, like, what got you into actually playing music versus liking? I was singing in church. Like, so my mom had me and my sister in church all the time. And, you know, I was like, I'm here. So let me try to do something to help me stay awake. Pro, I started playing drums. Oh, nice.

I started playing drums first for a while. And then I started playing piano for the choir and stuff. And that was fun. And once I got to high school, I started playing a trumpet. And then just like start morphing into, like, musical theater and kind of getting comfortable, like, being on stage and doing music. What kind of musical theater were you doing? And I did a bunch of plays like I did Footloose.

We did Newsies. No, not Newsies. West Side Story. South Pacific. What else we did? We did Hook. The adult version of Peter Pan pretty much. I mean, that's a crazy amount.

Going from playing drums in a church, which I think if you were to look at the people who've been most successful on our podcast, I think half of them played in church. Yeah, man. It's something about music. Church, bro.

What is it? Is it having to perform in front of people who are passionate? Is it, like, what is that? A feeling thing, because I feel like in church, especially in black churches, it's not about the notes. It's not about reading notes. It's not about none of that. It's a feeling.

You know, so at a young age, you're pretty much taught to play what feels right, not what looks right on paper. Because a lot of times, what's right for the song isn't always what's right as far as what should come next. Structure-wise, depending on this music theory or that music theory. You know, it taught me at a young age. Music at the end of the day is about what feels good. You know, so you learn quick, like being a drummer,

you play with a piano player long enough or a B3 organ guy or a bass play long enough. You can feel a breakdown about to happen. So say your groove of touch, you can feel that, you can feel it, like you get to the point where you're locking eyes, and then you can just start closing your eyes and you can feel what the music wants you to do. And it starts to feel like everybody's on that same wave of vibration and just the musical balance

of everything kind of happening in that room. So for me, I channel that a lot, even now when writing songs, Because to me, it's not about what should I put here, what's grammatically correct, or, you know, I shouldn't say this word because I've said it already. How does it feel? You know, because at the end of the day, the people that are listening to music

aren't buying your songs or listening to songs or not listening to songs because you've used a word twice, you know? Or the second verse melody doesn't match the first verse melody. Who cares? Like, that's just how my mentality is, like, what feels good for the song for the moment. And growing up, playing in church has kind of helped me a lot with that. Yeah, totally.

Did it make you want to write, were you writing music while you were in church? Were you starting to write music for Sundays? Yeah, I wrote a couple songs for like a choir to church and a couple groups of the church. And my older cousin Charles Gibbs, man, he was actually a guy like, there was a couple of couple groups in our church that actually sung nothing but original music that Charles wrote. But Charles died in 2006, and he was like 33 when he died. It was super young. So he wrote a lot of the songs and the choir songs and stuff like that. So that kind of got me into it. So I wrote a few songs for the choirs at church. And then that just, you know,

transition from there to just writing songs kind of for myself outside. So, you know, when I was a kid, you know, my dad, you know, his dream. was for me to become a country music artist. Like he wanted me in the hat, buttoned up, shirt tucked in, the belt buckle, all of it. I was like, yeah, that's not my thing. That's not what I'm going to do. And this is me like 15. And, you know, I joined a band.

I'm an emo band. You know, we're practicing and rehearsing in friends garages. We had a band called Midweek Crisis. We thought we were awesome, but we stunk. We were pretty bad. but we did it for a while and midweek crisis is a fun name yeah man

did you guys ever release music no like you never you never ever oh you know how we recorded we're like 14 15 we're like 15 so how we used to record we would have a karaoke machine right and record

like guitars and stuff like record the whole band playing on the guitars uh guitars drums whatever Then we take a tape, cassette tape, and put in the other one and hit and play that while recording the other one and us playing. And I'd sing over the top of that. It was bad, bro. Do you remember what the first song was that you wrote? Yes, man.

How does it go? It was something like, man, it was like, do you want to be my forever, ever, ever? Do you want to be my forever? because forever don't feel like forever without you. It was bad. What's the oldest song that you've actually released? Have you ever gone back to those songs? I'm like, no, that's actually a good idea,

and I kind of want to reuse anything. Hell no. Hell no. Like, the only stuff I thought about releasing is some of my color of London stuff. Like 2000. That's the LA band that we haven't gotten to yet. Yeah.

And that was like 2000. When you were high school, did everyone know that you were writing music? Some people did. Yeah. I got really a lot. I was so deep into everything from, you know, band to sports to basketball, soccer, musical theater. Like, I was in a bunch of stuff, ROTC. I kind of like music, writing songs is kind of like the thing I did kind of by myself.

for a while. It was kind of like a little secret project or whatever. Did you write music for anybody? Not back then, no. I'm not saying for other people to cut. I'm just saying, like, were you writing them for, like, would you write them about your classmates, or would you write them about things you were going through? Not really.

Like, I had one song that I wrote, and I told, like, four girls I wrote it about them. I was like, I was a freshman in high school. I had one song, bro. Like, I had one song I wrote that I played really well. And I sung it half decent. And I just told a bunch of girls that like four or five of them that wrote just about you, you inspired me, you know, what freshman of high school boys do.

Yeah, exactly. What got you out of Delaware and why did you choose to not go through? through a musical theater. Or why did you choose to not go through something, you know, what was it? What, did you go to school afterwards? Yeah, I went to college. Where did you go? I went to Delaware State for a couple years.

So you stayed near home. Yeah. And then I got accepted to go to AMDA, American Musical and Dramatic Academy. Uh-huh. I got accepted there in 2006. and I was torn between going there or coming to Nashville and I just chose to come to Nashville

when you went to Nashville were you going it was you had to make some sort of choice at that point of I'm either going to pursue musical theater I'm going to pursue music right I think about that time of making that there's some day that you

had to make that choice. Yeah, I made that choice in like 2004, 2005, senior year of high school, going into freshman year of college, I had made the choice that, you know, it was what I wanted to do was being an artist. And what I wanted to do was I remember before my dad died, he had told me, I want you to be a country artist,

but you need to be a country artist. But you need to study different types of music and actually sing them. So there was a while there. I took a year and did nothing but gospel music. Then I took a year, did nothing but R&B. Then I took a year and did nothing but classic country. You know, then I did like CCM worship for a while. And what it really, what it helped me a lot with is just incorporating different elements

from different genres of music into what I do now. you know so I decided in like 2004 that the artist thing is really what I was going to chase and not the musical theater because I was bouncing back and forth one day I want to do this, one day I want to do that, one day I wanted to this. And it really just hit me. I was like, well, Nashville is what I want to do because I wanted to do country music, but it was my style of country like I do now.

You know, but in 2007, country music was still pretty traditional. You know, like there was no FGL, you know, there was no, there was no Dan and Shea. Darius didn't even come over until like 2008. His first project was put out. So, you know, I was the first black guy kind of really on the scene other than Cowboy Troy pretty much since Charlie Pride. You know, as far as like, there's a couple guys in between. like what was it doctor's name? We got,

there was a Spanish guy that did country for a while. It was a trity. I don't remember. But did you feel like you were getting welcomed into country at that time being like, you know, without those other artists? Or were you feeling at that point like, you know, what is it like at that point before you were saying, pop music really making the influence the way it currently is.

And without, you know, people like Darius who, you know, had a fan base coming into it, what would it like to be in Nashville as a black man who's trying to make music? It wasn't easy, bro. Like, I remember at first Canning Town. You know, I've always done the cowboy boots with jeans and a hat. That was like my thing. And I remember the first place I played in town was Fiddling Steel in Printer's Alley. The first place I played.

And I remember I was walking on stage. Some dude was like, oh, man, bro. I ain't know it was hip-hop night tonight, bro. You're about to rap? I was like, oh, shit. Yeah, man. It's like, then I started singing. He was like, oh, okay.

Okay. And then I went and was playing at, it was called Calac Ranch at the time, but now it's Al Dean's Bar, a guy known named Joe Fields. His daughter used to sing. We had the same producer, Chelsea. Joe Fields was one of the owners there. I think he still is. But it was back on it's called Calac Ranch and played there a bunch. And Joe is cool. Always super supportive and kind of everything I did, you know, would let me play there whenever I wanted. And, you know, for a while he was trying to help get me. me and, you know, to the industry. But, you know, at that time, Nashville wasn't really, I wouldn't say ready. Just I don't think they really quite knew how to accept a, hearing a black guy from Delaware that is not only doing country, but it's not traditional country. You know what I mean? like so that was kind of the struggle for a while so you know i had this producer and i went through the whole had this producer that had this investor and then the producer had a partner that was pretty

much taking all the money that the investor was given to the producer for me and just spending it uh you know i think i worked with them for like thinking like a year and a half two years we recorded professionally like two songs because all the money was getting wiped out. But then he was telling, you know, the partner was telling the guy that I was about to go on tour with Keith Urban. So the guy calls me and was like,

hey man, I heard you're about to go on tour with Keith Urban. I was like, I am. He was like, yeah, that's what such and such just told me that you signed a deal and you're going on tour with Keith Urban. I was like, well, that's a lie, bro. I'm chilling. And then I found out that dude was giving them the producer's partner money to give me because they offer me a pub deal.

And he was like, Jimmy, so how's everything going? You've been getting the checks? Like, what checks? He said, well, I've been sending them three grand a month for you for the last four or five months. I was like, well, I'm working at this gym right now and I'm serving tables. I haven't gotten anything. So the dude was like taking all that money too.

Like, it was crazy, man. And then I kind of got to the point where I just kind of got like burned out. You know, nothing was really happening on the music front. Why not quit? I mean, to be honest, like, this is like a make-a-break moment, I feel like for a lot of artists where, you know, they were, you know, where it's like the industry is not assuming that you didn't have nepotism. You know, like this industry is not always welcome to people. And then also to be a black guy doing country music, you're already going against the grain. What prevented you from after somebody's now kind of screwing you on this?

Why didn't you just say, like, I don't know, musical theater would have looked better. Like, why didn't you know, why didn't you stop? I, when I was a kid, my grandma told me, never have a backup plan because it's impossible to put 100% in two different things. And she said, if you work hard enough, long enough, eventually you will get an opportunity. And, you know, coming against the nose and the don't do this and don't try that. I was really like not sure what to do, especially like 2007, but I remember Warner Republic put out their Dreaming Out Loud record, 07.

And when I tell you, I am a huge Warner Republic fan, bro, like, huge as far as their approach to music, the lyrics, but as well as the production. Like that title dreaming out loud for me hit me. Not sure what it did for everybody else that came out, but I was really on the fence of do I quit or do I keep going? And I was like, I got to do it. And then I was struggling again. I remember the next record came out,

wasn't sure if it was 0-809, the Waking Up record. And I was like, just the title alone was like, you know what? This is me. I feel like I'm really waking up to who I am. It might take a while. Then I started digging into like Tudder's story and like everything he went through and his Nashville journey. And I met a producer that knew him

when Tedder was living on his couch or whatever, lived on his couch for a couple nights, whatever, not sure how long. And then just hearing those stories, I was like, man, if Ryan Tedder, one of the most talented people every walk to face this earth got told no

and went through this, I need to get my ass in gear and keep going. And that's what I did, man. I was like, people, I said, I see the vision. Like, I see it, crystal clear. And at times it was frustrating. trying to explain it to other people when they didn't see it. But I got discouraged sometimes, but just quitting was never an option.

You know, from the time I had to work three jobs to four jobs. Like, there was a time where I would write songs from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. And then I had to work at Bonefish Grill from 4 p.m. to 10, then Walmart overnight stock from 1130 until 6 in the morning. And I did that five days a week for about a year and a half. But how do people, you know, a lot of people ask me how they can do that and also have a music career. Like that's what, that's incredible to do all that work. Where in that time are you doing things like being a musician?

Yeah, so I would, so I would write those songs from 9 a.m. to 3. Like I would, I would spend that time. And days I had off, I would go to writers rounds in Nashville. Yeah. Go up to songwriters afterwards. Like at the listening room, the Blueberg. cafe, I would just introduce myself to people and write with whoever would write with me. And then I'd sleep, then go to work.

Then the next day, I'd schedule those rights and I'd write with those people. And I was writing with everybody from people that had publishing deals to people that didn't. Anybody just wanted to get in the room, you know? And the crazy thing is, some of the guys I was writing with before, I still write with them now. I had, so that was the country. thing. It was trying. It wasn't working. Wasn't working. I formed a band.

I met these guys. We started a band called Mercury Lane. Then we switched the name of the color of London. And we were doing the same exact music I do now. We were just doing it in 07 and 08. It was kind of like walking at edge between country, pop,

and R&B. And we were playing these shows and the country label was like, nah. I have one label, one guy just told me, well, I'm not sure about how the country music world would feel about, you know, your people really do. I was like, and he was like, well, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're really cool for a black guy. And I was like, is it, man, it's just racist as hell?

Like, unbelievable. I was like, dude. So then I had met this guy named Giovanni, I know for a while, Giovanni, he was CEO at his company called Alex Anani out of Rhode Island that makes those bracelets and stuff. So he brought my band. in to start doing the music for their commercials. So we started playing all these shows all over the place at different stores, and they would buy us on festivals, and we played Summerfest. This was like in 2010-ish, like, no, like 2011.

It was after Idle, like 2012, and just started meeting a bunch of people. And then I met Ricky, Kanye's cousin, that works with him at good music. and those were one of the labels that we were talking to and stuff like that. It was just the timing of everything going on and what Yay was working on, the deal never really like panned out, but me and Ricky stayed in contact and stuff like that. And in the midst of that, we had, you know, my drummer decided to do something else because he wanted to just be a higher gun.

And I respect that. And the bass player was busy with a bunch of different stuff. And then it went from four people to two. Do you still keep in touch with all those guys? Oh, yeah. Do they, are they angry at the fact that they didn't stay in a band with you? No, man. I think things run their course.

Yeah. And Isaac really didn't want to travel like that. But me, Isaac, we're still friends. Me and Nate still friends. Nate, I'm actually planning on bringing out next year as our fourth band. member, like a utility guy, to play keys, guitar. Because over the years, Nate, when we were in a band, I was the motivated one, and Nate was the organizer.

And I was always late for everything because I was so focused on the art side. I didn't care about the business. So Nate cared about the business. But Nate really never really had the motivation for the creative side. But now we flipped. He's got the creative side and the motivation. So he taught himself to play banjo, dobro, keys. sings better. So we're so my plan is next year to bring him out as, uh,

the four player to play, you know, play utility stuff. So we stay in contact and Isaac actually drove when I first started. Uh, he actually drove me in my band, me and my band in a sprinter for, for, for, for, for a couple shows. So he's like the head national rep for band to go. Yeah. Yeah. So we, we, we stay in contact and, uh, I went to LA for a little bit and tried that circuit, but it just didn't feel like me. Like I got so frustrated. L.A. didn't feel like you or the band didn't feel like you?

I mean, L.A., because the band was doing similar music. Yeah, L.A. didn't feel like me. I felt like because I was in that bubble where I was too country for pop, but I was too pop for country. You know, it was a weird time for about six years. And I could never. Did you live with people out in that? LA?

Like, roommates and stuff? So my uncle lives in, Encino. I live with him. Yeah. And I never. Or you just,

you're just, was he in music or are you just He's, he worked at USC. Now he works for UCLA. He's like in Dean of Admissions and all that cool stuff. Fight on. No, HR.

He's had of HR at UCLA. And I, and I just, what I wanted to do. I love L.A. Like, I go to L.A. anytime I get a chance. Like, I love L.A. But musically, what I needed to do was in Nashville, no matter how many times I kept bumping. Because I had a couple label offers from different labels in L.A. I just kept turning them down because it just didn't feel right. You know, the signing bonus was great. I was like, whoo, I need to take this. But I always trust my gut and my gut was just like, man, it's the same right. It's ain't for you.

So I remember my dad was like, just go back to Nashville, grab your guitar, and just write what you want to write. And when I started doing that, I started just playing different rounds any way I could. I remember 2016, I played a writer's round at Puckett's Grocery Store in Franklin. Franklin, Tennessee. It's a music venue, a grocery store, and a restaurant. And I played it. And I played it because I went to the gym where I used to work. There's a kid named Mike Gianne Greco who now works for Big Loud, the publishing department.

He was in Belmont at the time. And he said, hey, I got a producer you should meet. And I never met the producer, but the producer called me and said, hey, I had a cancellation. Do you want to fill in? So I called out all three of my jobs. I was like, all right, I'll at least make $200 to get to play some songs and I get a free meal. I'm in. and I played and he had another cancellation,

so he filled it in with a guy named Ash Bowers. And Ash was a writer at the time. He's been art assigned a Broken Bow. Came up to me afterwards and was like, hey, what do you got going on? You got a pub deal? Do you want one? I said, no, I don't.

I'm trying to get a pub deal. He said, well, I introduce you to anybody you want. I said, well, what do you do on these days? He was like, well, I got a small publishing company. We got like two writers. I said, well, let's talk. See what you got going on. So Ash offered me a pub deal, like pretty much that next week.

Like, and it was a good pub deal, too. I could quit all my jobs and just focused on songwriting. And I wrote with, the day I signed my deal, I went across the street to Major Bob, and I wrote with J.P. Williams and Josh London. It's so funny, we walk in the room, J.P.'s blonde, Josh's redneck, and I'm this black dude. I remember I first walked in. I said, hey, J.B., I don't know if they told you. I'm black.

So keep the black jokes to a minimum, bro. I don't know what they told you. Exactly. So we wrote two songs that day, and I ended up writing my, and they were writers at the time that really haven't had any cuts for anything, and I wrote my single Best Shot with those guys. Crazy. Yeah, and we just kept writing.

I wrote another song on my record like you do. But the song Asher, they made them want to sign me, was a song I wrote called Back of Your Mind, that was on my Mercury Lane record. I had that song like two years before I got my record deal, a year before I got my pub deal. This podcast is brought to you by CSAC, an industry leader and innovator and music performance licensing. For over 80 years, CSAC has established strong relationships in the entire community by investing in the careers of its top tier affiliated songwriters' film and TV composers. CSEC uses a selective and partnership approach with its affiliates, maintaining a small base, which enables them.

to deliver a high level of responsiveness and service. CSEC is also proud of its long history serving music users throughout the country and now represents over 1 million songs across all genres of music, as well as music from hit movies, television shows, and sporting events. CSEC is more than just a PRO and has expanded its business into additional rights categories and markets. They're also building a global licensing platform through a joint venture, Mint Digital Services.

To learn more about CSAC and its relationships with affiliated songwriters and composers, visit sysak.com forward slash origins. At this point, did you know the difference between, you know, you've been in bands, you had released, you know, you've been writing since you were 14.

Did you know that that was a good song? Oh, yeah, I could tell the difference. Like... Was it working with professional writers? And also, were you co-writing the songs in your previous things? Was that your first experience co-writing? I mean, what was it about that session? You were like, oh,

you sign a publishing deal, you then go in and co-write with people, and then magic happens. You know, is that what happened? It was the co-writing, but also I feel like every now and again, you get a guy that's young that's really good at songwriting.

I'm noticing, man, the older we get, the better we are. You know, we live a little bit. You know, we learn to, through our, our mistakes and our triumphs in life into a song. And for me,

I was always a hard critic on myself anyway, but that was one of the first times. I remember when I wrote back to your mind, before I got my deal, I was like, man, this song is actually pretty good. And I was always honest that is it a good song or this is not. I don't care if I wrote it or not. You know, you had to be, and I would honestly,

a lot of times compare my music to Teter stuff. to Keith Urban stuff, to this Christian band called The Newsboys. Compared myself to them. At the same time, I was real close friends with Joel and Luke from the Christian band for King and Country. And we were kind of here for a while. I was leading worship with them at churches.

And remember, they got their deal. They signed with word, this imprint called Squint under Word. and the auto price that was NR there the plan was they were going to sign me after them because they were going to do a mainstream deal and and they ended up just, I think just staying and switched over the word and did the Christian thing

and there I saw their career kind of just really start to take off and for me to where it would discourage some people for me kind of, you know, when I didn't sign with Squint because they decided to close it. I didn't really get discouraged. It was just proof that if you work hard and keep going, like you'll have your opportunity. For me, that was encouragement, you know.

So I just kept going, just kept writing and listening to their songs. And, you know, one more public. Those are so, you know, there's a big difference between, there's still a difference between Nashville songs and the songs you write in Nashville and the songs you write in L.A. And, you know, obviously, you know, Teter's written all over the place for everybody. So it's a, you know, that's a unique example. But what do you think is the difference between music that you write in Nashville versus music that's written in L.A.?

Why is it that your music works so well in Nashville in comparison to L.A.? I feel like I'm a emotional person and I look for depth in times when I shouldn't. And I felt like a lot of my rights in LA was focused on the melody and what sounds good now, not what's going to sound good 10, 20 years from now, but just right now. And in Nashville, I felt like I was challenged to push to make the song great now and years later. And then recently, my recent L.A. trip starting to feel a lot like Nashville rights now. Yeah. to where it's cool to bring that approach and actually rewrite a song and challenge it

and make the song as good as the song can be, you know? But for me, Nashville is what I needed. I felt like it was more structure, a little bit more disciplined. And then I started to see the difference in my songwriting and just an approach to songwriting and challenging myself to when I want to reuse a phrase or reuse a word, nothing's wrong with that. I still do it now,

but make sure I exhaust all options. Can I beat that line? Instead of taking the cop out and repeating it just because I want to do it and it's easy, if you repeat the line, do it because it feels good in the song and it feels right, not because I'm too lazy to write another line. Yeah, make it purposeful.

It's actually, even the Swedes, they talk about pop music they're for people who are really repetitive with stuff they are very conscious about when they repeat things it has to be by design and I think a lot of times people think

if you just repeat the word enough then that's what that's the title but that's really lazy that just means you didn't really write the chorus well yeah how long did it take from writing best shot till it came out and you know that

the reason why I'm asking that because there's a huge journey for you from that session of all of a sudden people saying, you know, this guy's a top prospect and is on all the top to watch lists and all that stuff. How is it these people started hearing it? What is the bubbling up process going from you've now been around the industry in multiple cities? you know you've lived in Nashville and L.A. You've heard it all before. You know, why did you, why this time?

Why did it work this time? So I wrote Best Shot in 2016. So I'm a record deal with 2017. We went to radio at Best Shot in 2018, and it went number one in November 2018. It was a journey because Best Shot wasn't even really the focus single at the time.

I remember when I wrote the song, we did a demo of it, but it was faster. Like, seven, eight BPMs faster. And I remember I was at Bluebird Cafe, and I played it acoustic, and I slowed it down. Ash was like, what song was that?

I said, dude, this best shot. I turned the day. He said, no, you ain't sent me that song. I said, yeah, I did. I just did it different. He said, well, that's how we need to do it. So we went to the studio and, like, like slowed it down and kind of focused on the lyric and the vocal, you know, more than the production. And I don't know for some reason I started playing it, writers rounds, different shows, and it seemed to connect with people.

I wasn't quite sure exactly what it was. It just felt right. So I remember the label was choosing between two different singles to go with. And the head of my radio promo team is Sony Creek under Broken Bowl, Byron Kennedy was like, man, I think Best Shot's the song. And I still wasn't convinced. I was like, man, like my live show is so high energy. I'm jumping off stuff.

I do flips and all this crazy stuff. I'm not trying to leave with a ballad, bro. And it was like, just trust me. So I remember Best Shot went to radio, Saturday at 41, 12 weeks. Didn't move. Yeah. I was like, God, this is it. I remember Byron said he told our radio team, he said, listen, this song dies here and buying all your jerseys with 41 on it.

The next thing you know, I heart got behind it, really heavy, cumulus got behind it, Beasley got behind it, you know. And it went from 41 to the next thing you know it was 30, then it jumped from 30 to 20. Then it jumped from 20 to 15. And it jumped from like 15 to like 9, I think. And then it just was moving. Then went to five and jumped from five to one and stayed there for like two weeks in a row,

Media Base and Billboard. And it fell to number two on Billboard, then went back to number one. I was like, did you get, like, was it, is it scary? That's a weird question, but is it scary watching it? Because there's like a different pressure and there's excitement and there's all these things. But it was. is it vulnerable it is vulnerable man

but my problem is I've struggled and worked so hard for so long I find joy in the struggle you know to when I got more excited struggling and fighting for the song that I did when I went to number one when I went to number one I was happy

I celebrated by going home to my apartment and playing PlayStation and I was like cool what's next I was ready to jump back into something else because I was thankful for the number one but I'm so addicted to the fight, you know. And my mom's been really helped me a lot with trying to just slow down and take into victory,

you know, because she said, this could be the only number one you get. Don't rush past that moment and realizing you achieve something that a lot of people don't, you know. Remember Asch was telling me, he said, look, I had a record, I had a single.

never had number one. And then I start to think about all these artists that have had singles on radios and top tens and some stop at number two. Don't even get the one. And from that moment on, I didn't take a moment for granted. And again, I'm still always rushing past the success moment. And really, it's like rushing past the trophy ceremony, ready to get to the next season, back to the struggle, back to the fight.

Because I feel like that's what happened. That's the blessing of having, you know, having failed before. I think a lot of people... Like, it doesn't scare me. Like, I love it. I love the fight. I love the grind. I love when people tell me

something can't be done. I love when they tell me that's impossible. Yeah. I remember there was a guy that worked for a label. I said, man, you're a black dude from a country town in Delaware

that people don't even know exist when you're trying to do country. There's no way you're going to get a record deal. If you do, they're not going to put a single out. And if you put it out, it's never going to go to number one because I'm not sure how the country fan base

will feel about you. And it was the exact opposite, man. It was like the country music fan base was ready for it. But a lot of times it's the people that work for labels sometimes that hold up the process, you know, because they're like, well, why do we get more, you know, black artists on country radio? Well, country radio and country record labels are like this. So if you don't really have a major label deal,

it's really hard to get a song like country radio taken seriously. And once labels start to sign more black artists and take them serious, then radio comes on and then fan base comes on. And I had so many people when I was on radio tour and playing shows like, man, you know, it's good to see you doing this. What took so long? I don't know. Timing.

Now, I'm definitely glad things are working out now than when I was 25. Because at 25, I wasn't ready. I thought I was. But I wasn't. Like, I didn't get my record deals. I was 32. And I feel like I've not like grown as a person, as a man, but also as an artist and a songwriter and a creator to where I really know now what I want to say, what I want my songs to sound like, what I want the production that sounds like, kind of really, I probably have a grasp on who I am kind of as an artist. I remember somebody asked me, well, if you can describe your music naming other artists.

who would be. I said, I would say my song is like, my sound is kind of like a country lyric, pop rock production, and pop and R&B melodies. So I said, if you mixed Teeth Urban with Usher, 8701 Confessions Usher, one Republican matchbox 20, you get the Jimmy Allen sound sort of thing. Because there's so many different artists that I grew up listening to that. I listened to as an adult that I love what they do. And I've over the years kind of just taken pieces, which everybody does, you know, take pieces that I love that fits with who I am

and kind of what I want to say. I feel like when we were talking about country music, which is starting, like, you know, only a couple people of color get the opportunity to perform on country radio. And do you feel like are you meeting a lot of aspiring musicians who want to get in that haven't had the door open for them yet? Oh, yeah, a lot, man. There's still, you know, black country artists that are signed a major label that really hasn't had an opportunity.

Like, one of my favorite singers is Mickey Guyton. Yeah, I love her new single. She's so dope, man. for some reason I don't know what it is and it sucks because one you're fighting a battle just females on country radio

and she's black on top of it you know what I mean you can sing like Whitney and like if people actually realize she can sing bro yeah she's incredible she's one of in my opinion

she's the best female singer in Nashville though and that's my opinion you know I put her up there with the great female vocalist of I put her up there with Carrie. I put her up there with anybody who thinks that

whoever the best female vocalists are, as far as vocals is concerned, I put Mickey up there right with him. Yeah. She's freaking incredible. But it's crazy because when we're fighting for best shot, people ask me,

well, do you want to quit? You know, there's so many obstacles you have to fight. I said, well, life always has obstacles you have to overcome. They're there. There's nothing you can do about it. But the effort I put into beating those battles is on me. You know, there's, you know, people, there's been times where, you know, I'll see somebody come to town. One of my buddies, that's a white guy came to town the same time I did.

We got a record deal six months. But he pissed it away. Like he didn't go to, he didn't go to his label meetings, didn't go to radio interviews, didn't, you know, and I wasn't jealous of his opportunity. I was upset.

He wasted it. I said, man, you have so many artists out here that would kill for that opportunity or working their butt off. And you just, there are a lot of writers who listen to this podcast. And,

I've seen that story happen more often than the other where they get the publishing deal and they're angry at their publisher for not doing something or whatever it is and it's like, you know, are they writing a song every day? Are they, even if they're not getting in session, still write songs every day? Like, the opportunity of being signed to a publisher

to a record deal in any of these major cities is, it's really the ticket and you can you kind of make make what you can with it you know I feel like the best thing for me that I did was remove the safety net like my buddy that came and got a record deal he also comes from a family where his dad is worth like 90 million dollars so it's like he's like I can do this or I can go home and work for my dad I feel like when you don't have a safety net a safety net you have no option but to succeed.

Like, you're holding on to that cliff. It's like free solo climbing a mountain with no, you know. Yeah. Man, if you fall, you're done. It's over. And for me, that applied pressure is what I'm thankful for. Like, it doesn't, I'm not afraid to put out a song and it not worked. I'm not afraid to struggle.

I'm not afraid to be broke. I've been broke my whole life. You know, so for me, it literally comes down to the music and I love. And I want to make sure that I always put out stuff. promote music that I put out that I love. Well, you know, you've had now, obviously make me want to is also a big record. And there's one thing where you get a big record

and there's another thing when you follow it up so you're like, I'm not a fluke. You know, the next record that, you know, your most recent single, you are, Noah Cyrus is on it. Shout out to Noah. do you like even that's a risk it's like you're i like that you're still pushing boundaries and you're not stopping with that um why the decision to bring an out sort of i guess the cyrus

family have some pretty country roots it's slightly different than just like a random pop star you know but what was the connection with noah and why bring on on Noah to be a feature? So I heard the song, song was sent over because my manager, Ash, also manages artist Matt Stel, who signed to records the same label that Noah's on. And I heard the song, they said they were looking for it as a duet with Noah.

And they sent it to me, I recorded it, they liked it. And then the label's like, yo, I don't even push this as a single. And I was like, I'm in. And for me, I like pushing boundaries. I like challenges, man. And that's what fuels me. You know, there's a lot of times where I'll, even when there's not any friction,

I'll create friction in my head to motivate me to work even harder. Create some sort of internal battle I need to kind of overcome. Michael Jordan, man. Yeah, dude, I, man, Jordan, Kobe and Russell Westbrook, my three favorite basketball players of all time. Yeah. They're like the alpha males of basketball, man, to where they thrive in obstacles, you know. And for me, with music, it's the same thing. It's like, I love it.

People said it can't be done. And that just fuels me to, you know, want to do it even more. Like we've even had stations now say, I don't know, I want to play it because Noah Cyrus is on and she's a pop artist. I was like, well, we've had Justin Bieber, BB Rayby, my homeboy Nelly on country radio. And now we have a problem with Noah Cyrus whose dad is Billy Ray Cyrus. And Noah, to me, yeah, she's a pop artist, but if you listen to Noah's music, especially like July and stuff, it's pop music, but it has substance, man. It has depth. You know what I don't look at Noah's.

like a regular pop artist. Like there's her music, I can listen to 10 years from now. You know what I mean? So that's a battle we're fighting now and hopefully we'll overcome it, but I'm gonna keep pushing it until we do. And, you know, I tend to lean on

the music listeners, man, because the response to the song has been great, you know, over a million and a half streams a week. It's good. It's doing well. And then my radio team, had a talk with one station and they was like, well, I don't know if I want to play this song. They were like, the song is streaming number two country song in your region.

It's outstreaming the top 20 records you're playing right now. So your listeners are telling you they want to hear it, but you don't want to play it. So that's the one thing that's frustrating sometimes with radio. But again, you know, you stay persistent. it. Keep fighting for it. And hopefully you'll get that opportunity to play. Because the same thing, I have a best shot. Like, people wasn't sure. Like, my first single, it's a valid. I'm a new artist, a black guy on top of that. But once they played it and the song started testing, it was like, you know, the number one testing song for weeks amongst all age groups and all different

gender, you know, between men and females, number one males, you know, 16 to 25 and then males 35 to 45 and same with females. So do you follow charts a lot? Mm-mm. I would frustrate the heck on me, bro. Yeah, I mean, that'll be your tip. I know some artists can do it. Some artists have a chip on your shoulder, man.

You want that chip on your shoulder every week. Just start looking at charts. That'll get your blood flow on for sure. Yeah, really get your blood phone, man. But listen, let's put it. I know we're sort of running long. on time so I just want to go to the next segment if you're cool with it. This one is our five for five.

I'm going to just name five things and I just want you to tell me what's, first thing that comes off the top of your head, all right? So let's start with Ash, your manager. Trustworthy. Let's go with Alexis, your fiancé. Man, God, rock. Let's go with your kids. Kids.

Motivation. Inspiration. Let's go with Ryan Tetter. Man. Inspiration, man. Like a musical god. Well, he texted me because I sent him this Zoom link while we were on this. And he texted me to just say,

what up and love you back, bro. Nice. That's a little note. from Ryan Tatter. Nice. I mean, I'm going to just throw in a couple more. Because you mentioned your mom, your grandmother, and your dad. And I just would like you to mention something about each.

My mom, man, she's been, you know, the musical background, musical backbone. I mean, she has always supported me, you know. Never once said you have to go to college, you have to do this. You know, she's been the person that's always supported me musically. My grandma, man, she was awesome. Like every show, my grandma, before she died, she's always with his purple scarf.

And I wear that in my pocket at every show. When I used to run in the crowds, I'm not running in crowds right now. I tied on my belt loop. So I wear that every show, and I got a name on my guitar strap. She died in 2014. My dad died last year in September 2019. He was the guy that put me in the country music. Like, that's all he listened to, though.

Like, that's it. Like, his favorite country artist was Aaron Tipping. He loved, you know, Montgomery Gentry. So before he died, I got to introduce him to Aaron and T.Royd from Montgomery Gentry. And then he was able to be alive and best shot with number one. So I got him a plaque made. He was able to see a couple sold-out shows I played. And man, we played one show.

and sold 2,500 tickets in 13 minutes. He was able to be there. And he was like, wow, like you did. Now, he still wanted me to, like, I wear my belt buckle sometimes and my boots, but he was like, man, when you're going to put the cowboy hat on Jim? I was like, yeah, I don't know, Dad. I don't know. But I did this photo sheet recently, and I had a cowboy hat on that.

Yeah, man, they were all supportive, man. Like, they all taught me so many different things. Like I quote my dad and my grandma a lot. I like to say I like to quote dead people. But I quote my dad a lot. He used to always say, you know, accept every opportunity. I always make yourself available. And that's what I did by going to pockets and being able to get the pub deal.

My grandma's advice of, you know, never have a backup plan, you know, because you can't put 100% in two different things. I remember in middle school I got in trouble. My teacher was like, well, what do you want to be when you grow up? So I'm going to be a singer. She was like, well, what's your backup plan? I said, I don't have a backup plan. I said, what did you want to do?

I said, I wanted to be a school teacher. I said, did you have a backup plan? So now I didn't need one with a school teacher. I said, well, you didn't. No guarantee you were going to get hired. She was like, well, do you, are you trying to get flipped with me? I said, no, I'm not trying to get smart. I'm just making a point.

Like, how are you going to come in my career, but I can't come in towards? See, go to the principal's office. So I went to the principal's office. And he was like, well, what happened? I told what happened. He said, man, go back to class. I went back to class and I remember I had my first show in Delaware. I sold out show and I gave her tickets.

And I told her, I said, listen, as a teacher, you're supposed to educate and inspire. So you should never shoot down somebody's dream because not everybody is strong enough to fight through your negativity to reach where they're supposed to go. And I said, I could have let you tell me I need a backup plan and focus on my backup plan and not be doing what I love for a living. So no matter what a child's career dream is supposed to nurture that. You know what I mean? And if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't happen, that's fine. But your job as an educator is to inspire and educate.

I love that, man. Well, you know, thank you for doing this. I feel like this is just sort of the beginning for you in a lot of ways. and I love that that's how things work in the music industry that the beginning for you happens 20 years into a struggle and you know it just means like now it's all it's so many doors have opened up because you open them up not because they were just given to you and oh another Delaware songwriter

you need to have one here oh my cousin Stara her name's written oh hell yeah So she's from Robeath Beach, Delaware. It's my cousin. Cool. So yeah, so she's way bigger songwriter than I am. Tell her I say hi. We've definitely talked about having her own.

So that would be amazing. She's cool, man. Worked her butt off. I remember when she was in college and she was texting me, talking about, hey, I'm thinking about, you know, doing the move, in LA. I was going to do it. And she worked her butt off.

She has her own thing she does. I mean, people shot down for so many years. And, you know, now she's, on the biggest writers in pop now, man. So in the world. Yeah, exactly. In the world. In the world, bro.

Not just, not like in the world. In the world. Look, people surround themselves with that kind of, like you were saying, you know, you want to be surrounded by positivity. And you've done that. You've built a positive team and you're putting out positive and strong music. And you're winning because your talent and you're winning because you're perseverance and it's it's fun to watch and congratulations.

Thanks man. Yeah, I feel like what helped, I tell people all the time, surround yourself with people who are living the life you want to get to. I've moved to, I couldn't really afford to live in Brentwood, but I did it on purpose because I knew Brentwood is where successful songwriters were living and artists and I became friends with someone. many of them working at the gym and, you know, NFL players and guys that have reached their goal because guys like that are successful, man, they have success stories. You know, I didn't want to be

in East Nashville. There were a bunch of other struggling songwriters and artists where there's a mentality and the morale down, man, you got people, you know, hating on people and then I don't know if it's going to work for you. I've been here X amount of years and da-da-da-da-da. I'm like, that's not what I need to hear right now, bro. So I just tell people, man, surround yourself with people that believe in you and also that are achieving things that you want to get to, man, and that'll just rub off on you. You know, just to will and never quit.

Because if you wake up every day and you see success in your face, you know, you see people that have hurtled across obstacles that you're currently fighting, you know, that's more motivation to see the wins than people still struggling. So that's what helped me a lot. Have you written with Mickey at all? No, but we actually have a song on my, so I got a project that comes out July 10th. It's a collab project. And I got a song with Mickey, got a song with Nellie.

I got a song, it's me, Darius Rucker and Charlie Pride on the same song. Oh, yeah. Got a song with Tim McGraw, got one with Brad Paisley. And I got one. It's like super random, but it's me, Rita Wilson, Torin Wells, a Christian artist, and the Oak Ridge Boys. Crazy. That's weird. Yeah.

I named it like Betty James after my dad and my grandma, and I wanted to have some of their favorite artists and my favorite artists. My grandma's favorite group of all times is Oak Ridge Boys. Yeah. So rad. Love it. Cool. So now we're done with our interview.

Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter, interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist, or visit our website at and the writer is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us. You can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg's mom, and published by Big Deal music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Golden.