And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Ep. 98: Jody Gerson (Chairman + CEO, Universal Music Publishing Group)

Episode Date: September 21, 2020

With more than three decades of experience, our guest is one of music’s most respected, accomplished executives and a preeminent creative authority. She is the first female chairman of a global music company and the first woman to be named CEO of a major music publisher. Since joining Universal Music Publishing Group in 2015, she has transformed the company into a billion-dollar business and the industry’s best global home to songwriters. She has led the signings and extensions of world-class songwriters including the Bee Gees, Elton John, Carly Simon, Bruce Springsteen, Prince, Taylor Swift, Billie Eilish, Rosalia, Alicia Keys, Coldplay, Justin Bieber, Jack White, SZA, Post Malone, Quavo, Brandi Carlile, Ariana Grande, H.E.R., Harry Styles, Maren Morris and many more. A strong advocate for women’s empowerment, our guest co-founded and serves on the Board of Directors for She Is The Music, a nonprofit championing equality and inclusion for women. She also serves on boards for the USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative, Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, the National Music Publishers Association (NMPA), and The Archer School for Girls. She has been named to numerous prestigious honors, including: Billboard 2020 ‘Executive of the Year’ for the prestigious Power 100 list; Billboard Power 100 numerous consecutive years; Billboard 2015 Executive of the Year for their Women In Music issue; Rolling Stone’s ‘Future 25’; Variety’s Power of Women L.A.; 2016 March of Dimes Inspiring Woman of the Year for her accomplishments as a leader in the entertainment industry and as a dedicated mother; and more. Prior to joining Universal Music, she served as Co-President of Sony/ATV Music Publishing. Previous to that, she was part of the senior management team at EMI Music Publishing, serving as head of the company’s east coast publishing division and then revitalized and led EMI’s west coast division. Outside of music, this executive has also served as a producer of the successful films Drumline and ATL and as executive producer for VH1’s Drumline 2. And The Executive Is... Chairman and CEO of Universal Music Publishing Group, Jody Gerson!This episode is brought to you in partnership with She Is The Music.Art: Michael Richey White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys, welcome to Ann the writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. I've written with hundreds of artists and writers over the years, and my favorite part of each session is the first hour when we catch up about life, the industry, politics, composition, whatever. So this is a journey of learning why people write songs, how people write songs, and most importantly, who the people are who write the songs.

I'm producing this with the Great Joe London, big deal music publishing, and Mega House Music Management. If you want to listen to the songs we discuss in this podcast, follow us on our socials, find out about special live events, or buy that merch, aka that hat I always wear. Go to our website www. And The Writer is.com. For a little bit of context,

we just wanted you to know that a lot of these were recorded before quarantine. And as we know, a lot has changed in 2020. So again, please stay safe out there. and enjoy the new episodes of And The Writer Is. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I am your host, Ross Golan. Today's iconic executive is one of the most influential publishers of all time. For over 25 years, she has signed the world's biggest writers and stars from all different genres.

Rising in the ranks to become the first woman chairman of a major global music company, she now runs Universal Music Publishing, the largest publisher of them all. And yet, she continues to treat writers with a notoriously empathetic touch. Her voice matters in protecting all songwriters, regardless of where or if they are signed. She has launched initiatives to empower women in the music industry, which is evolving the morality of our profession, continuing to push for a better future for all of us. This East Coast transplant has a lot of priorities, but being a good mom is at the top. And the writer's friend is the smartest person in the room, Jody Gerson.

What a nice introduction. Thank you. I'm not the smartest person in the room. Other than that, the rest of it I can take. Thank you. But, okay, you have to know, I've been in rooms with you and a lot of very smart people. people. And it, intellect seems to be really natural for you. Were you always, and obviously you went to a very good school and whatnot. Did you come from a lineage of thinkers? Where do you, where do you know? I came from the lineage of my father, my grandfather were night club owners. my mother left her parents home at 19 to my father's home where she married and raised kids. So I had this funny upbringing, which was here's where my smarts come from.

The advice my father gave me always was, I don't care about legal or illegal. I care about smart or dumb. and if you're dumb enough to get caught, you're an idiot. So I think really my intellect comes from having really good instincts, being empathetic, listening, understanding when I don't know something, and surrounding myself with people, and in business, surrounding myself with people who have skill sets that I do not have. Well, let's start from the beginning.

You were born in Philly, but you were raised in New Jersey? Is that what? No, no, no, no. I always lived in the suburbs of Philadelphia. I lived in a suburb on the main line. My father and my grandfather had a nightclub in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. So I spent right across the bridge, yeah, right across the river. So I spent my life there going back and forth on the Benjamin,

in Franklin Bridge to Cherry Hill, New Jersey, where I would spend time with my dad and my grandfather at the nightclub. When you say nightclub, that brings up all kinds of images, but can you just describe what a nightclub at that time in Cherry Hill, New Jersey looks like? So imagine, have you watched the television show, Madman? Yeah, of course. Okay, imagine that child instead of her father being an advertising executive. of her father running a nightclub.

So imagine a Las Vegas kind of nightclub, right? Long tables from, you know, we called them ringside seats would be the seat right at the edge of the stage. And imagine from birth going, sitting ringside seats throughout my childhood, seeing talent like Frank Sinatra, Diana Ross and the Supremes, Richard Pryor, temptations, any of the Motown acts. You know, and in those days, so I grew up, I was born in 1961. So from 1961 until 1978, when they legalized gambling in New Jersey, I lived this crazy life where part of my life was very provincial in the suburbs of Philadelphia attending an all-girls private school.

but being in this world of entertainers and the you know really being surrounded by multi-multicultural and tremendous just like i grew up with philadelphia international records kenny gamble and leon huff and tom bell and linda creed and that though it was you know i had songwriters and artist and Gladys Knight and her husband at our house, you know, like, literally like my mom, my dad would call my mom at 10 o'clock at night and say, you know, Sammy Davis wants dinner. Can you make, you know, a traditional, you know, make a roast chicken for Sammy Davis Jr. And my mom would get out of bed and prepare a meal for Sammy Davis Jr. at midnight. And there would be a party.

I would sleep. I would wake up the next morning and my mom would still wake up in her nightgown and take me up the street to the bus stop. And that was my life. So the thing about smarts is like I'm, you know, I didn't know when I was growing up or when I was graduated from college that music publishing was a job. I had no idea. I knew about artists, even though I grew up around great songwriters with Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. And I didn't know that that was any. I just didn't know what that was.

And I fell into a music publishing job at Chapel Music. But Ross, the thing for me was that I grew up backstage at a nightclub. I knew the anxiety that artists felt right before they went on stage. I was a child. I was, I was precocious. And I was really so interested in what my father did and my father's relationships with talent. So I knew the good and bad of talent. I could see the difference between an artist standing in the wings right before they went on stage.

And then they came on stage and came alive. So somehow I was drawn to that. And I was drawn to what makes an artist tick and what makes an artist different from me. me. And from a young age, I knew that I wanted to be behind the scenes. I wasn't a performer. But there was something about it that drew me to it. And I think that was my childhood. Yeah, I could see, you know, if it was in your blood to be the performer that being in a nightclub would make you want to get on stage and be a songwriter, be an artist and all that. But if your father's the one who's running the nightclub, I could see why you would never want to be an artist

and why you'd for sure you'd want to, your job would want to be only to help those people survive. Well, I think that you either are an artist or you're not. I'm not sure that that's anything you can choose to be. I think you either have it in you. I wasn't talented. I had a great ear and confidence. And I had a great ability to listen.

But I think you either are or aren't. And the thing about artists is there's something, you know, what I thought was a fairly normal childhood. I look back at it now after, you know, many years of therapy. It wasn't so normal. You know, and it was somebody in the house had to be the grown-up. And it was me from a very young age. It was definitely me. And I think that I knew.

that, you know, I somehow knew about anxiety. I somehow knew about all those things that I didn't necessarily experience, but I had anity toward it. And I think that for me, I didn't need the accolades of being on stage with people clapping for me. I knew that I needed to be behind the person who was going to do that. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Yeah, of course. And you left Philly to go to school in Evanston, Illinois. you went to Northwestern, which is another good music town, and at that time, a really good music town. Yeah. My first question is, did you stay in Allison or Shepard Hall freshman year? Did you? Did you go to Northwestern? Did you go to Northwestern?

My grandmother was professor there, and my mom went there. I went to Cherubs there. I went to, like, a program. Oh, right. You told me that. Neither, like an idiot. I was in the... apartments because I thought I was too sophisticated to be in a dorm.

And it was a very big mistake because friends of mine who were in Allison had tremendous freshman year. I lived in the apartments because I thought that I was so grown up right across from Orrington Hotel. Is that, oh, nice. Is that from, is that because you were the parent in the house that made you, that made you feel like you didn't belong with? Yes, with children.

with in like in i didn't do the sorority fraternity thing i thought it was beneath me it was really you know it was um yeah i thought i you know want i was ready to be out there living in an apartment and this is how i kind of saw it in my head um did you study music in school did you i mean not but did you at this point you know you want to be did you were you going to school to take over your business or be involved? He wouldn't let me. My father's business fell apart by the time I was a sophomore and he bounced my tuition check and it changed everything for me because, you know, I, you know, it was a cash business

and I called business and I thought we were affluent, whatnot, not realizing that, you know, he spent every dime he made and it was cash and had no savings. And I worked in college. I worked first at a kind of an ice cream shop called J.K. Sweets. And then I worked in a clothing store in Chicago throughout, you know, from, I think the summer before my junior year through junior year and senior year, I worked in a clothing store. But I did not study music. I had a love of music. I first went to Northwestern and I was in the radio, television, and film department, in the school, what was then the school of speech, I think is now communications.

And I transferred out of that because I just didn't, I think after my freshman year, I realized I wanted more of a liberal arts education. And so instead of transferring into the liberal arts school, I studied communication studies, which really is rhetoric. And so I had amazing professors who we really studied the speeches through history. It was amazing. It was more about language and speeches and communication. And it was incredible. From there, how do you get to starting to work at chapel?

That's in New York, though, wasn't it? Or where was- Yeah, so what happened was when I was 15, my dad brought the family out to L.A. on a business trip because he used to deal with all the music agents in L.A. and we stayed at the Beverly Hills Hotel and I'm like, I'm moving there. But he said that people in California were crazy and he would not allow me to go to college in California. I wanted to go to either NYU or anywhere in California.

He said, I'm not sending you to New York to go to school and I'm not sending you to California or they're crazy. So I'll send you as far west as Chicago. that's really how I chose Northwestern. And also there was a girl in my high school. I thought it was so cool who went to Northwestern. And so I was like, all right, I'll go to Northwestern. And somehow I got in, I think from my interview, it wasn't my grades were good.

My SATs weren't great. And in those days, you could have a great interview and get in, not so much anymore. So went to Northwestern because it was in Chicago. When I graduated from Northwestern, my dad still wouldn't send me to Chicago. And so, I mean, to Los Angeles. So I used to take the train back and forth to New York.

And I just had this interview at Chapel Music. And I got the job. And I was Xeroxing lead sheets and lyric sheets. Oh, my God, I sound so old. And I really maintained their lyric and lead sheet library. And when old songwriters like Burton Lane and others needed their lead sheets, I would Xerox them. And I'd play a game called like Beat the Messenger. And instead of calling a messenger, I would like run uptown for just maybe I can meet the songwriter.

And that's what I did. I just, I was so ambitious, even though I took, I'm sorry what? Where did you live in New York? So when I first moved to New York, I lived on 87th and 3rd. my friend Wendy Finerman had a one-bedroom apartment, and she had just met her future first husband, Mark Canton, who was then the chairman or the president of Warner Brothers Pictures. She left New York. I lived with her.

I lived on her couch. She moved to L.A. I couldn't afford to live in that apartment by myself. So my friend Paula Kaplan, and I lived in the one-bedroom together until we got evicted because it was Wendy's lease. And then we moved to 95 Horatio. And we lived there until I moved to L.A. Crazy. When you're at chapel and you're doing lead sheets and you're meeting all these writers, you know, now you can actually listen to basically fully produced songs and then have an opinion as a publisher. You know, I sent a song on this weekend and my publisher just said, you know, had some notes in a weird sort of way on the production, you know, the whole thing then looking at lead sheets.

How do you know what a good song is at that point? I mean, you can't hear the music. If you don't play it. No, no, no. No, no. We still had, and I got promoted very quickly to the tape room where I would file all the new songs. So it wasn't like, I didn't read music either. So it wasn't that. It was that in those days when you pitched a song, you sent the cassette along with a lyric sheet. So lyrics were actually super important then. You would look at a lyric sheet. but so I was in the tape room and so every week I would um the new songs would come in and I would put them together

and I would then deliver them to the A&R department and in their weekly A&R meeting they would listen to all the songs but I got to listen first and not just that I mean it was amazing and it was in those days a lot of songs from Nashville. But I also got to file songs from like demos from hollow notes and demos from the Beegis. Demos from the Beegis that were written before I had gotten there. But I remember, and it's funny because they recently signed Barry Gibb. And I said to him, I remember the song that you delivered to chapel music. He used to deliver demos of all of those songs, the Barbara Streisand songs, Islands in the stream, all those songs. He had full demos on with him doing background vocals, like extraordinary.

And I remember certain songs from the reel to reels that I got that I had to, that, you know, I had to file. And so you asked me the question, how did I know something was a hit song? I had an uncanny ability to know, to feel and to know what would be popular. And all I had to do was trust my instinct that if I liked it, everybody else would. Now, I listened to songs first to the melody. If I can't sing along to it, I don't really care what the lyric says. So I listen melody first and then lyric.

So I think great songs, the great songs have great melodies, but even better lyrics. Who is the first writer you signed? I assume it was still a chapel. You go from Xeroxing and from being in the tape room to then somebody, you have to at some point say, I'm going to bring in this writer or somebody saying, will you now just handle this one writer's schedule or something? What's the step actually becoming a publisher versus somebody works at a publishing company?

So I was always, so I went from Xeroxianly, she shoots into the tape room. And in the tape room, I remember saying to Irwin Robinson, who is the chairman of the company at the time, I want to pitch songs. And he said, you could pitch songs. You're in the tape room, pitch songs. So what I did was I stayed late every night. Everybody else left. All the songpluggers left. And I would listen to songs. And funny enough, my ex-husband, Seth Swirsky, who was a, started out of the songpluggers left. And I would listen to songs. And funny enough, my ex-husband, Seth Swirsky, who was a, started out of the song, plugger and then left to become a songwriter. He gave me really good advice. He said, find contacts that no one in the A&R department has. Go meet people that they don't know because you can't compete with them. They're experts. You find people. Find an area of music that they're not covering. So I pursued Jelly Bean Benitez, who was then a DJ and a producer. And I sought him out.

Like every time I went to places, Ross, I would meet people. I remember people would take me to T.G. Martel dinners or I would like anywhere I could. And I was that person who was like, dear Mr. Davis, it was so nice to meet you. I was the woman who came up to you, blah, blah, blah, dear so and so. I mean, it's crazy. I'd pick up the phone. You know, I was very ambitious. And I knew how to network.

And so I think what I would do is I would be in the tape room and I would hear songs, especially songs that came in from the UK that no one else was paying attention to and writers that no one else was paying attention to. And I would listen to their songs and I would pitch them. And my first hold was with Jelly Bean. It was a song called So Fine by Duberry and McCalla. And I don't think he ever caught it. But I got it on hold.

and there was another song that I pitched to Nashville, to I think Crystal Gale, and I think I got like an ASCAP award for it, and I got to go to Nashville. But I think it's just, it really for me about becoming a publisher was about listening to songs and thinking about who could record them

and meeting people so that, like, I always knew I could get into an office. But what was going to define me, was my taste of music and my ability to be right about matching that song to the artist. And so that's how I started. And I was getting probably more covers than more holds and freezes, as we call them,

than the other songpluggers. And that's how it happened for me. You know, a lot of people look at this industry and they think about how it used to be easy. and they always say that about whatever happened, you know, whenever they're in their prime, they're convinced it was easier before. But that sounds incredibly difficult

to get someone to cut a song when you have to send an actual tape to somebody for them to hear it. It's not like you can send an MP3, you can't send an email. You might even have to fly there to literally play them a tape. I didn't live in L.A.

I didn't live in L.A. So the songplugers in L.A. had an advantage because all the producers were in LA where they were nobody was really cutting records in New York anymore. I would have to package it up and do a good cover letter. And then I'd have to call them on the phone and follow up. Nobody has to call anyone on the phone anymore. Do you know what it's like to pick up the phone and your heart's beating and you don't know if they're going to pick up and if they reject you, you know, just the whole, it was, it was different, but you know, it was so gratifying and it still is when somebody tells you they like a song that you pitched. It's so

gratifying. And I, I'm envious of the A&R people who work for me, they get to do that every day. It's so much fun to get that call when somebody says, I love it. And then to be able to call the writer and say, They love it. It's good. It's going to get cut. And even for a writer, I think sometimes the assumption is that when it comes out or when it's a hit, that that's when the joy comes. But it really doesn't. It really comes from the first time you send it. And the person who's listening to a thousand songs from the best writers in the world turns to you and says, that's, that sounds incredible. Can I play it for the artist? And we're saying that has as much of an endorphin hit as when a song actually is, you know, out. It's, well, because it's less complicated. They just like it. So then you're at the point where they cut it and you're like, oh, my God, my demo was so much better. Why'd they mess that up?

Or why did the writer, why did the artist now fighting with me to take 20% of the song? I mean, it just becomes much more complicated. And it was, it was, look, I think it's more fun now because there's so much more to do. You know, in those days, an a person just pitched us, you know, in a, song plugger just pitched a song and then the rest of it was left to the producer, the record company A&R person, the promotion people,

the marketing people. And we publishers just got to pitch the song and collect the money. It's more fun. Now we're much more intimately involved in the process now. Explain what it was like to be a

woman in the music business then and how that affects how that affected the way people listened to your pitches. I imagine that there is there's a huge difference

historically. I know some of the answers here but I'm not trying to bait you into certain answers but just explain what that's like to be a young woman who wants to work in the music business you know, it's starting then in a way all the way through, but...

I'm not afraid of the answer. Here's what it is for me, for me. Number one, I think music publishing is a fabulous job for women, fabulous. And even though I didn't set out to be a music publisher, I set out to work at a record company or at MTV, any of those places, it just so happened that I got a job. music publishing. But I knew that I, like I said before, I knew I could get into any door being me. I knew I could. I knew I was attractive enough. I knew I was friendly enough. I could. And I used to

think if these guys are dumb enough to let me in their offices with having no, like, as an, you know, It's like entry level, entry level. I could get into anyone's office. The question was, what was I going to do once I got in? And I absolutely, I don't know whether, first of all, I think I, you know, I got married in my 20s. I think partly it was to be safe of those kind of situations. Remember, I grew up in the nightclub business backstage. I knew there was a danger.

lurking. I don't know that I could articulate it as a child what it was, but I knew, I knew that men could be scary. And I don't know that I got any clear messages other than I wasn't to walk around by myself. And there were some situations in my childhood that were funky. Nothing bad ever happened. But I definitely Ross had my guard up. So I wasn't going to allow myself to be in those situations. And when I think about it, there probably were situations that were weird.

I remember going to one producer's house, and he, like, wanted it, you know, it was at night, and I was pitching him songs. He was at his New York apartment, and the light started to dim. And I figured out how to leave. And I was never, I was, I never, you know, maybe people came on to me, but I always had the excuse that I was married. And I kind of had a, I just had a sense.

There were other things being in studios. Like I kind of defined my career to avoid those situations. I used to say to writers all the time, what do you need me sitting in the studio with you? Wouldn't you rather me pitching your songs? You write the songs. Give them to me in the morning. I'll go pitch them. So I was always making excuses. I remember the years that I spent in Atlanta. You know, my first beat, you asked me before, who were the first writers I signed? I don't know that when I was at Warner Chapel, the first writers I signed did anything. It was when I came to EMI and I discovered Atlanta. And first I signed Arrested Development and then Jermaine Dupree and Dallas Austin. And it was then that I started hanging. hanging around in studios. And I knew it wasn't my place because it was like, all right, they were going to a strip club.

I wasn't going to do that. And so I always knew when it was time to leave. I always knew somebody else should be doing the hanging and it should be a guy and not me. And that's not to say, you know, and I don't know if my career, you know, I didn't have a hugely big job. until I was 50. You know, I didn't run a company until, you know, I didn't. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't hanging out with the guys. I didn't want to be one of the guys.

I wanted to be, I wanted kids. I wanted a marriage. And so I think I didn't, I knew that the, it's long-winded answer, but the generation of women before me, Ross, were single and hung out with the guys. And somehow I knew that a certain point, those guys, I didn't want to be hanging out with you. And I knew my place. I don't know if that's right or wrong.

It just was my experience. I also know that there were no women who helped me. Men helped me. Why is that? I think in those days, women protected their turf. There was a woman at Chapel, and I remember thinking, here, I went to Northwestern, you know, I'm going to make it, I'm so ambitious.

And there was a woman who worked at Chapel. And I remember she was like the head of sync. And she lived in Great Neck and she had two kids. And she was very successful as I saw a career woman. And so I marched myself into her office one day. And I was like, can you be my mentor? And she said, no. She said, I forged my way.

You forge yours. And I think it was just, the time. And I vowed if I was ever going to be successful, which I knew I would be, that I would do it differently and that I would help people. Yeah, I'm excited when we get to, she's the music and whatnot, because you're definitely putting your money where your mouth is, so to speak. But before we get to that, you know, once you start signing, you know, I want to go to that place where you're in Atlanta and you end up being the one who signs all of the guys. Everybody but LaFace record.

There was me and then, you know, what LaFace was signing. But yeah. But that's the game changer. At that point, you get those, you get, you start owning a scene. I remember trying to, you know, Justin Cliffwoods at downtown. And like that's really broke him. And, you know, like all these people who end up finding a scene somewhere and they, they end up owning that scene in a publishing way.

it's so foreign to be in Atlanta when you're talking about New York, Nashville, and L.A., how did, is that part of what you were saying where you took the advice of find the people that other people don't know? I mean, how do you get to be the one that gets involved? I don't know. I think it's because I was just really starting out in my career as an experience. executive and I was looking for stuff and I remember I was at EMI and somebody at Chrysla signed a rest of development and I'm like oh that music speaks to me oh okay like and it was about always for me about finding music that spoke to me you know there there many publishers Ross who are really good at pitching mediocre songs really good and they get

them cut I was never that I was always more confident if I was working with a brilliant songwriter. There are plenty of people who are good at those okay songs. It's not my thing. I'm really good with artists that have a great sense of themselves that know where they're going and songwriters who are great. What difference between a great writer and a good writer? I think you just know it in the songs.

And I think it's bodies of work versus one-offs. You know, there are a lot of people who have one. And I'm very sensitive when I talk about songwriters because I'm not a songwriter. And I think it's really hard. It's a hard job. It's a hard job to wake up every morning and go, where does this melody come from? Am I going to have it today? Am I going to go?

Remember, songwriting is really the only art that's collaborative. I can't imagine a painter sitting down, you know, with a blank canvas and going, I'm going to draw a circle here. What are you going to do? That's not how it's done. With songwriting, it's not even, like, it's not pen to paper. It's not copying a beautiful landscape.

It's not taking a photograph of something you already see. You're creating something from nothing. Where does that come from? and I think great songwriters can do it again and again and again. And so with Dallas Austin and Jermaine Dupree, who were my, really who defined my career for a long time, and they taught me how to be a good publisher, because all I had to do with them was listen and then go,

and I talk about my relationship with Dallas, Austin, because it's my best and most cherished, relationship because we did so much together. We were so, we each had a role. His role was to write and put out record that defined a moment in time. And my job was to go, wait, what else can you do? Maybe you could work with Madonna. Maybe you can work with Bjork. Let me take you to Europe for the first time. Let's see what, you know, let's let me take you somewhere else. And he would say, well, and I want to make a movie. And I'd say, well, what do you want to make a movie about me?

Come up with all these ideas, all these ideas, all these ideas, all these ideas. And then I would hear one thing and I'm like, wait, that marching band thing? Wait, what is that? And he would tell me a story about being in high school in a marching band. And I'm like, well, wait, how about that one? And then I would connect him with my friends in Hollywood who made movies because all my friends are in the movie and television business, not necessarily in the music business. And I connected the dots for him and we made drumline together.

And that was because I was such going back to, you know, my training, which was really being around a nightclub is listening to talent and going, oh, you're the talented one, but I can connect the dots for you. And so that really was the most, honestly, the most rewarding time in my career working with a songwriter was for those days. I like that. It's so much fun. Of what a publisher is, sort of a dot connector. That's what I am.

I'm a connector. I am. I know, you know, so I want to make your life easier so that when you're creating, you don't have to work. about anything else. And I think that's the job of a music publisher to make sure that the songwriter can create and know that when they write that song, that that song will find the right home, will find the right film or television project or will be licensed and all the potential money will come in for it. That's what my job is. That's the job. You mentioned, everyone who I assume was one of those mentor types. And you, you know, when you get, go over to EMI, you,

you stay there for 17 years. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. So I think we can get into like a little bit of, you know, your mentors from EMI and then, you know, going over to Sony was obviously a huge move and, and there will be some people there that we can discuss. But yes, yes. So tell me, Tell me a little bit about the mentors you did have in those days. And some of the EMI world, you know? So EMI, I had tremendous successor. Dallas, Germain, Alicia Keys. I mean, tremendous.

But what happened was, you know, all good things come to an end. I had hired Big John, Earl, you know, gave him his first job of music publishing. You know, I don't know that I've ever said this publicly. He knows it. But I think at the end of my time at EMI, John was much more ambitious than I was. I was still trying to have, I think I don't remember whether I had all three kids, but, you know, I was kind of, there was new management at the company. Roger Faxson came in and replaced Marty and I was arrogant. I was like, you know what? I built this place. You know, I remember seeing Roger Faxon showed Big John and I, both of our P&Ls are profit and losses. And I looked at mine and I'm like, wow, I've made so much money for this company.

I really, you can justify my salary. John looked at his and he had Jay-Z and Kanye much smaller splits. successful, but smaller pieces of songs. He looked at his, and his P&L was much less than mine. He had a different reaction than I did. He was like, wow, I'm making a lot of money for the company. Pay me more. And I think that that was a man-woman thing,

that I was completely unconscious about. I was like, oh, my gosh, wow, yeah. I really, wow, all this money I make, which was not a lot at all, is really justified. He went, look at all the money I'm making him to the company, I want more. And I think he lasted there longer.

I was like, you know, they pushed me out. And I went running back into Marty's arms. And I proceeded to have a lot more success. I didn't know that I would. I thought, oh my gosh, you know, I'll leave all my great writers at EMI. There's hardly any new super.

And the first person I signed it, Sony ATV, was Lady Gaga. So it was like, oh, I actually can do this. And so I did. I was there for many years and had a lot of success and feel like, you know, I had a great A&R team. Did you think it was, you know, one of my favorite part of conversations about discographies and people's biographies are the things that happen in the years that aren't successful.

The moment where you're getting pushed out of some place that you feel like you help build after 17 years and starting to feel like maybe you're not going to find another other. But as you start losing ambition or you start feeling like you're losing ambition, why didn't you, why don't you quit? I didn't think that good girls do that. you're loyal well first of all there are I was telling this a friend of mine left CAA after 32 years and I sent her a note and I said it was pushed out and I said you know the

times that I've made changes I've been pushed to make that change forced to make that change I wish that it had come to me but I thought that you're supposed to be loyal very different from the generation who works for me now but I think thought you're supposed to be loyal and you stick it out. And that people are good to you and you're good to them. And I didn't want to leave my writers. I didn't, you know. But, you know, I also, you know, at EMI,

the reason I made the movie drumline with Dallas was because I remember Marty Bandier and Bob Flacks, who was the head of business affairs, called me into a meeting at the Peninsula Hotel. And they said, Jody. Oh, I signed Alicia. And nothing had happened yet. And I remember Marty and Bob called me into a meeting. They were like, Jody, you know, people like you so much.

You've so many relationships in L.A., in the film and TV business. You know, we don't understand why you don't use your relationships. You know, you're a bit cold. And I was like, oh, my God. I said, okay, you think I've got all those relationships. Why don't I, you want to make movies with me? They're like, no, we don't want to be in the movie business. And I said, right, you want to let me make a movie and carve it out of my deal?

Sure, you're not going to make a movie. And that's why I made drumline. It's why I did it because they said I couldn't do it. Anytime somebody tells me I can't do it, it's great for me. It doesn't, I don't, I'm not a quitter. So when you say, when things are bad, would you leave? No, I. I'm not leaving on a down cycle.

And then very, right after that, Alicia popped. I mean, it's just you have to, when you bet on talent, Ross, sometimes it doesn't happen when you think it's going to happen, but it's going to happen. And, you know, when I sign writers, always say, like, choose a publisher who will be there for you when the chips are down, who will wait it out for you, with you who will help inspire you but who won't because it's you're not always on an up swing

and um you know when i left sony a tv it was only because my life had changed i got divorced i kind of you know three kids i realized that there was more to do and then i could actually do this on my own and so then i decided all these other guys are being offered jobs as chairman of companies. What about me? And then I was brave. And I said to Marty, my deal's up. I get it. But am I your successor? And he said no. And so then I had to go. I was forced to go. I could have stayed there. But I had to be brave. And I left. And it was the best thing I ever did for my career. Because I'm good at being a chairman of a company. Yeah, I was going to say you've done really well. You know, I mean, some of the people that you've signed, you know,

that since you've been there, Billy Eilish and Harry-style, both Malone and Halsey, I feel like I'm going to miss bunches. That's okay. Rosalia, I'm running out. John Menda. I know. That's good. Because I work with great people, Ross, it's not just me. Here's the thing. I've created a culture. Number one, I'm not threatened. I surround myself with really good people. I don't do all of that. Other people sign some of those artists,

and I just supported them. But when I came to Universal, and I've spoken about this before, it was a company that was very administrative oriented. It was run by lawyers and accountants and not very creative. And the weakness was in ANR because it wasn't valued by the top of the company.

I remember saying to an ANR person at Universe when I got there, tell me about the people you've signed and, you know, what are you excited about? And they all referred to deals. I signed this deal. It's going to recoup in the third period. The IR is this when we were right or we were wrong. And that's not what I asked you.

I asked you who you love, what songs you love. And the person said to me, no one ever asks us like that. And nobody asks us. So the work I had to do there was to put music at the top and remind everyone that even if you're in royalties or copyright or legal, you all apply to a job at universal music publishing. So you love music. You could have, you know, worked at another company, but you wanted to be at a music company. And so what I was really good at there was putting together a great management team, most of whom were there already, and putting people into positions where they could succeed. But knowing that the company would only have success if we bet on great talent.

And we gave talent, we surrounded talent with what they designed. which was a great administrative system and great global administration great collection and then I realized the weight of that responsibility the responsibility of running a company wasn't just for my songwriters and my employees it was about becoming a leader in the industry and whether that was supporting women putting more women into position or whether it was fighting for fair pay for songwriters, all of that comes with that job. Well, you know, that's one of the things I want to make sure people understood is that people in your position really don't just represent the writers in their company anymore.

You now end up because of things like market share and you're starting to make decisions on behalf of all songwriters. Where songwriters are scared right now for so many obvious reasons. You know, you have ESPs who really, they don't care about the quality of song. because they just want people to click on the songs. You have artists that may or may not be songwriters, but may still ask for publishing. And may not have a priority being,

let's step up for other songwriters. You have record labels who are making a lot of money but don't have to pay for distribution and marketing, or maybe marketing, but distribution and manufacturing the way they used to. But so they just have extra money now. How do songwriters survive? And what is the future of our business if we can't,

you know, obviously we're waiting on the Department of Justice for consent decrees and we've got all kinds of things that you and I've discussed in part of the NPA board and whatnot? But how does a songwriter get? get excited about the future? Well, I think, first of all, please know, and you do know this, that there's tremendous opportunity with the DSPs.

We just have to make sure that we get paid fairly and that songwriters get paid fairly. There's this weird thing that people think about the big, bad publisher, pocketing money. I can't pocket money. Ross, if you were signed to me, you could audit me. I'm not, and our audits are beautiful. I love when people call me and like, you know, they spent more money on their, you know, accountant than there was to collect in the audit.

My view is that competition is good. And unfortunately, because of the consent decrees, we cannot negotiate the way labels can in a free market. And I think we have to fight for that. I think songwriters have to take strong positions alongside of us. Yes, we have the resources. We have representatives in Washington's to speak to us, speak for us. But I think that what David Israelite did by really bringing in a lot of independent music publishers to his board and songwriters like you so that you can really understand the issues. These issues are incredibly complicated and incredibly nuanced. You know, when we got the results from the last CRB, I'm like, wait, what does that mean? Do we not get anywhere? Where did we get?

It's so publishing is so complicated. But the big note is that we have to keep fighting for fair pay because you're right. You're right, you know, now you write a song and you've got, you know, people say to me, oh my God, so-and-so is having a big hit and I look and I've got like 7% of a song. It's, that's a drag.

And even that is a drag. The amount of people, so if I, if I shop a song and somebody says, I want to release it as a single, I usually ask if there's any sort of terrestrial radio plan. Mm-hmm. No. and if it's you know somebody just wants to put it on you know essentially make it a single where

they put it on new music Friday they might do a video on YouTube they might even tour it name their tour of that and the album that I'll still make almost no money it's so rare that it's hard to make money on it unless you start asking for things like points and whatnot it's really difficult for songwriters to actually make a living unless they have an actual hit you know how how How is there a middle class? How do we create a middle class with songwriters? I don't know. But here's the interesting thing.

You know, we just made a deal with TikTok, which then, you know, independent, you know, anytime I make a deal, I want to make sure that independent publishers get the same deal. And so we're very close with, you know, with the NMPA on that. And so I think the better deals that we can make, the better deals other people will make. But I think they're opportunities. You know, now that we made this TikTok deal,

people are going to be making money, songwriters are going to be making money on TikTok. There are all these different pockets. Will there be big pay days? Maybe. I mean, what? But just think about this. This is somebody, you know, just think about this.

Pre the DSPs, somebody bought a single of yours, right? And then they played it for the friend and another friend, another thing. And they play it over. over and over in their house every time, you know, let's say it's a big breakup, you know, big sad, sappy song. And my boyfriend broke up with me and I'm playing it over and over and over again. I own it. Every time I play it, that song only got 99 cents or whatever it is. But with the

DSPs, every time that song is played, that song gets paid for. So I think there is opportunity. I worry about teeny pieces of writing credit that songwriters are getting. I worry that for the next two years without touring, artists will be taking bigger pieces of music publishing. And I think that together we need to educate people. I don't know that artists realize when they're managers fighting for them to have a big piece of the song. That's the only way songwriters make money. They're not touring. They don't have merch.

You don't have merch. You don't have branding deals. You don't have any of that. So I think some of it is education. But I do think we're going to be okay. I think there's opportunity. There's, my dog's going to start scratching at the door. So I'm going to open the door.

No, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, keep all this. So that way people are really entertained on the edge of their seat. But if your dog barks, but if your dog barks, mine who are sitting quietly on my bed will start barking too. So just heads up. He's been sleeping in the whole time. Okay.

So, you know, I posted something yesterday that was maybe one of the most shared things I've ever posted. Why is it, you know, why don't labels start advancing mechanical royalties like they do publishing or like they do producer royalties? You know, you give a produce advance and you collect on their points. That's sort of how that works. Assuming some, not including the producers who get, you know, where it's a fee and they get royalties from record one. Why isn't it that record labels could advance a certain amount of their mechanicals? My point being that then you would have where at least album tracks would create a certain amount of revenue

that could either help recoup a writer's deal or it could go into the pocket of a writer who's self-published. Why can't labels somehow open up their money quicker? It's a good question. What kind of answers have you gotten? I've talked to, let's go with record label one, said we would be more interested in giving song deals to, let's say, 20 up-and-coming writers because we think that's more advantageous. And actually, that was record exec number one.

They already do that. So, okay. Go ahead. Record executive. Chou said, no, that would cost too much because we released too much music. and my argument was well either release less music because that's still not fair to the songwriter that's the point of view the next exact actually said something really interesting

to me because I called them initially because I said this was about how I think that my much smaller publishing company than Universal is 50% women. Biden's done. I think it's important

that we have a company that reflects humanity. Oh my God, I love you so much. You're on the right side. Okay, go ahead. I said,

you know, for if right now, I believe 19% of songwriters on the charts or 20% of songwriters on the charts in 2019 were women. Even though 50%

of writers are women, it's that hard day for women to succeed as songwriters. So there should be no fewer than 20% of albums that are executive, that have executive producers that should be executive produced by women. Right. There should be, because a woman will bring in a guy writer, but I don't trust that a guy executive producer will bring in a girl, a female writer.

So I think it's really important to open up those doors. So that was my initial call, which he was very excited about. And I've been having conversations with our friend Amanda Berman, who lives down the street. So literally with our dogs, we have these conversations and try to. Amanda's a great publisher. She is really good. But the idea of it being just trying to find ways for our industry to do things. And he was the one that seemed most excited about a potential few initiatives that might,

you know, why not have a label come out and say, this is the kind of label we're going to be. We're going to be the kind of label that will take care of writers. Because if we advance writer royalties, then they'll get all the songs first. Even the most successful writer you have, given artist A and B being the same, the one that pays $5,000 split between the writers,

they would take that almost 100% of the time. Unless they have some other incentive, they'll always take that. So the argument is so there. Their argument is like, well, artists don't want to have to recoup this and it would be hard for baby writers. And I'm saying, or baby artists,

and I said it shouldn't matter. Because you could take it out of your fee, even, or out of the, you could probably take it out of the record labels, you know, whatever money that record labels mean. I don't think it has to come out of the artist, especially if it's a, or if it's a slide. scale. You know, maybe an artist that has a certain threshold isn't responsible for covering the...

Yeah, but they, but I think it's, it's record company accounting. It's just complicated because everything comes from the artist. Totally. It's not considered a marketing expense. It's not considered, you know, but I also think that I don't know how the middle class songwriters succeed in that because you're really only going to pay for the sure things. You know, it's hard enough for people that have hits that I worry that in that circumstance, who are they willing to pay? They're not willing to pay the up-and-comer.

So it'll be that much harder for the up-and-coming songwriter to get attention. It's a standard fee just like it's... Okay, so this gets into the idea of unionizing or some way for songwriters to have a collective bargaining, you know, voice. Because as we know, BMI and ASCAP and other PROs have sort of different objectives sometimes. And, you know, other unionized instrumentalists on a record get paid and that it's a work for hire. But they get paid as a line item. So my question is why couldn't there be some sort of first write fee that gets distributed amongst the writers? That if we're going to use this song, we just pay this fee that gets split between the writers,

including the producers who are writers. It's just a standard fee that ends up being a line item. I'm just trying to find, like, what are ways to create a middle class? That's interesting. I think I have to think about it. I'm not sure that I have the answer, but I'll certainly. explore it with you. Happy to. I like that. I want to talk about she's the music real quick. I'm very excited that we're actually launching unknown music publishing as the brand of our,

my publishing venture. I'm so grateful. Thank you for doing this. It's really exciting to be a part of this with you guys. I'm just so excited that this exists. I want you to talk about she's the music, why it needs to exist, and what the music industry can do to help support women that are up and coming both on the artist's writer's side and on the executive side. So I think it's a matter of number one understanding how she is the music formed. It's formed because when we did a study, it showed how horrendous the numbers were for women working and being credited. in music, mostly songwriters, engineers, producers. The numbers are awful.

So the idea that Alicia and myself and Anne Mancieli and Sam Kirby and then Stacey Smith from the Annenberg Inclusion Initiative came together to create, number one, awareness, and then figure out how we can be responsible for creating opportunity. My view is that women need to support women and that if you bring one woman into a session, you're already changing it. It's easy. Bring one woman into a session, it starts to change the numbers. I think there is something about being able to create sisterhood.

It's somewhat generational. How really, you know, we won't know, if we've had success until a couple years down the road where we can say have the numbers actually changed. But I think it is more than just changing the numbers. How do you change the numbers? How do you, you know, you look at my own career of being loyal and not fighting for what I deserved. And even when I refer to the story about the P&L and John looked at his, which was much less than mine, and he thought, wow, I deserve a raise. I looked at mine. I thought, oh, good job. Joe, you know, you brought in all this money to the company. And great, you deserved your salary.

Never occurred to me that I was making so much money for the company. So therefore, I should be valued more. I should be valued more. And I think some of it is just about being women and how we're conditioned. And we don't want to take up too much space in the room. And many of us were raised to support, you know, to make men feel good about themselves. to cause this gesture and how do we fit in and how are you what happens you know when you start to hear stories from women this thing of like certain writers were saying they go into sessions and there's porn in the studio like there's porn going on or or there's women in the sessions and you're you know who are not writers and like are we supposed to just be one of the guys and be cool with it what do we So I think when you create sisterhood, if you change the numbers all the sudden, you're in a

session and a guy's thinking about putting porn on, but you and two other women are there, he may not, or you will be comfortable saying, dude, not okay. And if he turns to you and says, bitch, whatever, you're like, dude. I mean, I think there are a lot of issues, Ross. And I think that we, I think there are men like you who want to do what's right and who are conscious of this. There are other men who want to protect their friends and their positions. When I think about my own career as an executive, men took care of their friends and getting jobs. And the same thing in sessions. You bring your friend along.

Who's your dude? Right? I think we just have to be conscious. And women have to be conscious of bringing other women. And, you know, people are always like, I really love to find a female engineer, a female producer. I can't find one. We'll give somebody a shot. Mentor a woman.

Mentor, I can't imagine that there aren't great female engineers, you know, who are, you know, working, bringing coffee to people. So she is the music is about creating opportunity. Mentor, it's very simple because I wanted to make sure that. that our path to success was simple. It's about mentoring. It's about education. It's about providing opportunity for women, women pushing women into position.

And going, it's okay that you have a kid. I'm going to figure out how to help you. You could still go to that session. And we'll get you a babysitter. You can still take that job. Maybe your mom needs to, you know, maybe you rely on a family member. I did it, you can do it.

And I think that's what it comes down to. And women not being afraid to say, but dude, I wrote 50% of that song. Why am I stuck with 10%? And I was talking to Stara's manager this morning who mentioned that she's going to executive producer, a particular pop artist. And I was really excited by a woman of color

being an executive producer. And I started thinking, I don't know if I've really met. I don't know if there are two of those that exist in our business right now. I don't even know why we can go down a list of really accomplished women songwriters right now who don't get the same opportunity and always trying to figure out what is a way to open up doors for people. And I know that there are some A&R people who listen to this. And I just would encourage them to.

think about putting a woman as their executive producer of not just a woman artist either. You know, it's like there's no reason why, you know, if a guy can be an executive producer for a female artist, a female writer can be an executive producer for a male artist, and it shouldn't be that crazy of a concept. No, but it also has to be, Ross, that women want other women to have success. And I think that we have to change that notion. like when people talk about me being the only female chairman, it's okay for me to be the first,

but it's not okay for me to be the only. Just not okay. I won't have done my job if I'm the only one. And I think it's the same thing in terms of songwriters and artists. Women have to want other women to share success. Yeah, absolutely. That's really what it comes down to. And men have to be open to it because I think,

you know it's traditionally you know the music business funny enough with all these incredible females it's still like a male dominated business yeah and we just have to make room just open it up and not think about what you're taking away from one man one job less for a man and just think about you know collectively making the world I think if there were more women making music music would sound different. If there were more women running companies, more companies would be run with integrity like mine is and with heart. Oh yeah. I mean, we have be different. All of my publishing collaborators any of them are women because they're just run a better company. They're better. Yeah. Yeah. It's so, it's not even a like all things being equal, it's not. No. No. And you know what? I pride myself on

doing the right thing so that when I go to sleep at night, nothing keeps me up. Totally. I love that. So wait, two more questions for you. What's advice you'd give a new songwriter who wants a publishing deal? It depends. I mean, I think the publishers are great. I think choose a company that you trust and choose a person and people. It's not about one person. at a company. Meet lots of people at the company. Interview people at the company. Surround yourself with a team. Don't meet everybody and see what works for you, but really for me, I always tell people, number one, educate yourself, understand what music publishing is,

understand how to have success in music publishing, and choose relationships. It's the one, of the thing that's troubling to me, especially being at home during a pandemic, that so many of these relationships have become deal-oriented. What is the deal? What is the deal you are offering me? My lawyer says somebody else is offering me a better split. To me, those are short-term. It's about long-term relationships. Who is going to be there for you when the chips are down? who's going to bring opportunities to you, who's going to push you and inspire you to be better? That to me is the advice I give people and not to make it just about a deal. Yes, it should be about a deal, but most people get their songs back at a certain point.

You know, everybody's like, should it be 80, 20 or 75, 25, look at what the pennies mean. Does it mean that much of a difference to you? lawyers, I think, negotiate today without understanding the art of a negotiation. Both sides should be happy. Right. So I know that it's your business. But either way, I couldn't get everything either side. You can get everything, but it's more than just the deal.

And know that with success, you're with a person. I have said many times in a negotiation to a manager, I know you want this, but you know what? With success, I give you my word. I'll go back. And be with somebody who has integrity and who will always do the right thing by you. Okay, this last segment, and then I'll let you go. Okay.

I'm going to just list five people and just tell me the first thing that comes off the top of your head. Ready? Okay. Marty Bandier. I love him. John Platt. I'm so proud of his success and glad that I knew him from the beginning. Universal Music Publishing.

Integrity. Greatness. Pride. Your kids. Oh, beyond. I love them so much. The best thing I ever did in my life. Your parents.

Maybe who I am. good and bad well thank you for doing this i appreciate it you know i i said in the beginning and i get so excited when we're in an nmpa meeting and you speak because you speak with clarity and patience and you're so knowledgeable about the subject of publishing because of having worked starting from xeroxing lead sheets and when you work in so many facets of the business in you including putting out movies, you know, musicals, whatever it is. All those things create a certain amount of range that allows you to have an expertise overall.

And that's why you're really good at running a company. It isn't, you know, it isn't a gender thing. It isn't, it's not that. It's your vast experience working in so many facets. of music publishing that very few people can relate to that. They don't have that experience, they don't have that ability

to draw from those experiences. And I'm sure that some of that experience is who you are, where your parents came from, I'm sure some of that is gender, but you have done so much for songwriters, for your songwriters, and it's exciting to watch.

It's exciting to hear you speak. And I hope that you're inspired to continue to be a leader in this business, because you're right. We don't need only you. We want you to lead a whole generation of leaders that think like you do, because I think we're a better industry with you in it. Thank you. Thank you so much. I love what I do and the thing that is so true and it's much more simple than anything that you just said, it starts with a song. And I have such respect for songwriters. And you have a very powerful voice in a very powerful place. And I will support you in anything that you want to do. And I really, I mean, because people listen to you, Ross.

people really listen to you and you are doing it and you're not just writing songs and producing songs you're speaking on behalf of songwriters and in many ways the things that i do do on behalf of publishers and songwriters you're doing and you're very powerful and i am grateful that you gave me this time um and that you've said such nice things about me and i thank you yeah you're welcome Let's get some health care and some money for songwriters. I hear you. Let's talk about how to do that. I think you're right about that. You're right about that.

Thank you so much. And here you go. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of And The Writer is. If you want to hear music from this songwriter I just interviewed, be sure to check out our Spotify playlist or visit our website at an antherwriter is.com. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe to us.

you can also like us on Facebook and Twitter. And The Writer Is, is produced by Joe London, edited by Miles Berg's mom, and published by Big Deal Music. A special thanks to David Silberstein from Mega House Music and Michael White. Until next time, this is Ross Bowling.