And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - How Dan Nigro Builds Superstars | Ep. 195 | Rewind

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

Today's guest is the Grammy Producer of the Year who built the two biggest pop breakthroughs of the last five years back to back — and whose real story isn't about the hits. It's about the three years he spent making nothing and the rule he wants every producer in the game to understand.From indie rock frontman in As Tall As Lions to pop's most trusted collaborator, Dan built his career against almost every industry instinct. He carries three things at once that most producers never figure out how to hold: the commercial ear of someone who's had back-to-back Grammy runs with Olivia Rodrigo, the patience of a craftsman who sat on "Good Luck, Babe" for 18 months before it ever left his hard drive, and the conviction to say no — to every rushed demo, every session hop, every label note that doesn't serve the artist.This is one of the more honest conversations about what it actually takes to build a superstar. And The Writer Is... Dan Nigro!In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:• The three years he spent making nothing — and what finally broke it• Why getting Chappell dropped from Atlantic was "the greatest thing that ever happened"• "We're building like an icon here" — the real work behind Chappell Roan's rise• Why Dan refuses to send demos• 20 days with one artist, not 20 sessions with twenty• Meeting Dua Lipa in 2014 — "this girl is a superstar"• Artist development, finding your lane• Writing good songs sucks — and why that's fineAnd much more...Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our sponsors for making these conversations possible.Our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishing Association. Your support means the world to us.And @splice — the best sample library on the market. Period.Chapter timestamps:0:00 Intro3:01 Why Atlantic dropping Chappell was "the greatest thing that ever happened"4:16 Atlantic's note: cut one of the Pink Pony Club guitar solos8:20 Self-releasing Karma, Naked in Manhattan, and building a label with Island11:33 "We're building like an icon here" — Bowie, Madonna, the Chappell blueprint13:13 What makes somebody "have it" — the gut call you can't fake17:21 "There are no more superstars" — the article that pissed Dan off19:34 20 days with one artist, not 20 sessions with twenty21:27 Good Luck Babe's million rewrites — the "Good Luck Jane" era22:59 Why Dan refuses to send demos — ever24:54 18 months on the hard drive26:01 Justin Tranter asks: how do you have the confidence to dive that deep?28:04 Three years. Ended up with nothing.33:12 The Madonna model — outside songs, finding your lane43:21 Taking five months off after Olivia and Chappell46:41 Steph Jones asks: rituals, guilty pleasures, happy accidents51:43 Amy Allen asks: has your feeling ever been wrong?52:58 "The most egotistical thing I've ever said" — never wrong about an artist53:20 Meeting Dua Lipa in 2014 — "this girl is a superstar"55:55 Vampire — and the label that thought it was "three songs in one"62:39 People need to take more risks63:37 Writing good songs sucks — and why that's fine68:21 Five for five — As Tall As Lions, Sour, Guts, Amusement Records70:31 The second-album mountain72:58 Playing Olivia and Chappell for his daughterCredits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad SaadEdited by Jad SaadPost-Production VFX by Pratik Karki Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Olivia and I didn't get the driver's license on day one. We got the driver's license on day 25. It's like this rat race that everyone's in to try to just like book as many sessions with as many people. I was like, that's not what this is about. If you wrote a good song with that person, spend 20 days with that person. Is it easy for you? No, none of making music is easy.

I just think people need to actually just take more risks. Have your feeling ever been wrong? I spent like three years. We have all these productions piling up and these like half-written songs. You're looking back like at the last month or two that you did and you're like, none of these songs are any good. And I just did that for so long and it ended up with like nothing. I wish that writers and producers, like,

that's just how you're going to like end up having songs that matter and songs that mean things to people. It's like when you're really like, we're building like an icon here, you know. But I don't think you could have a superstar person without. This season is presented by NMPA, the National. Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everyone. Welcome to And The Writer is, I am your host, Ross Golan.

When today's guest was first on this podcast, he was a hit producer who was super. Now he's a bona fide super producer. But over the last few years, since, he has solidified himself as a conductor of the zeitgeist. Last time we discussed his ability to break new stars, but,

all he's done is repeated the seemingly impossible feat. Now with a Grammy and an ASCAP songwriter the year under his belt, he hasn't just dipped his toe into being a record exec with amusement records, Island Records as a partner. He's become the guy to whom you want to sign. So, let's get to his second episode, and the writer is Daniel Leonard Nygrom. Oh, it's good to have you back in this time in person. Last time I was on Zoom, because I think it was during the COVID era of things.

It was. Let's start with, you know, you have, you know, at that time and people can go back and get a lot of your background. So we don't have to repeat too much of that. You have to listen to both episodes. Yeah, I mean, like, otherwise we're just repeating the same thing. Like, you don't have to be here. But instead, like, you're coming with, like, armed with so much new, so many new things to talk about. And I'm really excited about, you know, Chapel Rhone.

I'm sure she existed as a human then. But, you know, she didn't exist as you were artists yet. I don't think. I think, or maybe you had just started working with it. No, it was probably just around. That's when it probably started. 20, 2021 was probably when we decided. I don't think we made anything official until maybe 2022, but we were definitely talking.

I'm not sure if she was still at that point on Atlantic or not, but we were trying to figure out a way to, like, move her project forward. Well, this is interesting. Let's just jump to Chappellon. We'll get to the other stuff later. But, you know, there's something about artists when they get dropped from their first deal that gives them. this clarity of how the business works about who they are as an artist, because during that time, they realized who they are as an artist, and also the label realizes who they are as an artist, and they don't necessarily mesh. But there's a long list of people who got dropped.

Right. You know, who there, I mean, Katie Perry got dropped, and One Republic got dropped, and Jonas Brothers got dropped, and chain smokers got dropped. We could just keep going down this list of people where their second deal is the thing that worked. Right. But what is it that made you see somebody who got dropped and didn't say, you know what, that's not really the right relationship for me. Instead, you were like, no, this is an opportunity. To me, it was the most exciting thing that ever happened. Like, when she got dropped, I was like, my only thought was like, yes, great. Like, finally. So you worked together during the Atlantic era. We worked together before she, while she was on Atlantic, and we had made Pink Pony Club and California. and the song loved me anyway.

And basically, I was so frustrated. Well, we were both frustrated because we had made these songs. And especially when we made Pink Pony Club, we were kind of like, well, we just wrote a great song. And we sent it to the label. And they were like, well, it's cool. But like, can you, like maybe like Pink Pony Club? Like, that's a weird title. And there's two guitar solos in the song.

Can you at least remove one of the guitar solos? And I was like, are you guys crazy? Like, the song is insane. And like, I don't mean to, you know, toot my own horn, but like, this is pretty special. Like, this is going to be, I was like, this song feels really important. You know, like, we should probably do something, like, release it. And they're like, ah, we don't know. And anyway, so it was very clear to me from the beginning that there was a disconnect between, like, what the label wanted from her and what she actually was as an artist.

And I just was like, and I was learning. It was for me as a songwriter, a producer, I was learning about like the ins and outs of a record label and how to deal with them from the side of being a producer and how it could go so you could have such a disconnect between like what you want. And basically I was, it was one of the first times that I ever really pushed back because I remember, you know, a lot of times when you're a producer, songwriter and you get notes from the label, I would imagine a lot of people listen to the notes, you know, if the label gives notes on a song. whereas when they gave me notes I was like no like I'm not changing that like be crazy like the song's great like and this is how it's gonna come out

like you guys can release it you know or not but like this is this is how it's gonna be and I mean I don't even say that with like with an attitude of it was more so like I just felt so passionate about it that I was like how can you not see this clearly you know it also depends who the

label is who at the label like the person giving the note there are certain people where when they give a note, it comes from a studious place, it comes from a passionate place where they can justify their note in a way that might be worth at least trying. And then there's some where you're like, no, of course I'm not going to do that. I think there's definitely A&Rs that I listen. Like, I will take their advice and other ones that I'll be cautious of their advice.

But it was just a moment of like feeling so much clarity. is to like, I felt so strong about Chapel as an artist and I felt so strong about the song that I was like, this is clearly is not, like, we're clearly not on the same page. And so when, so to answer your question. Did you help her get off the label or was it not? I didn't help with, I didn't help with any of that. I was just like, I just told her like, I'm going to be here no matter what, you know, like, don't like, because I obviously as an artist, she was very upset. Like, oh, like, you know, my label doesn't, you know, believe in me. You know, so it's like it's a hard thing for anybody to kind of feel that feeling and, you know, realize that that's the case.

And then, but for me, I kept on saying, you're like, if and when they drop you, that's probably going to be the greatest thing that ever happens because I'm not leaving, you know, and I want to. And if that's the case, then you can just release music whenever you want. And we, the two of us can A&R it together, which is ultimately what we did. I was like, as soon she got off the label, I was like, all right, this is now let's go. You know, like, we wrote like right after that, we had written my kinkas karma. And we had naked in Manhattan kind of finished already. And I think, what was the other song we had? I think we had one more song at that point.

And we were working on casual. So, like, we had all these songs that I was like, you have all these amazing things. Like, you just got to figure out a platform to express, you know, who you are as an artist. You know, maybe, you know, getting on TikTok, getting on Instagram. And, you know, I was like, you're going to have to do it yourself. Like, I mean, I can't really help you with, like, that part of it. But, like, in terms of, I was like, you don't need to pay me. Like, you don't, like, I don't, I just believe in this music so much that I just want to help you release it.

Like, let's figure out a way to do it, you know. Well, when did you say, well, okay, let's make this an official where you do get, you know, I mean, frankly, where you do get paid for your work, you know. It's like there's a difference of saying, okay, you get, you don't have to pay me, but also, you know, I want to start my own thing and help you release this music. Basically, like, once. Because you started it for, for this project, right? Basically, basically after she released, she like self-released, I think naked of Manhattan and Mankas Karma were like self-released. Where did she release them out? She just threw like, I don't know, but distributor like, like, basic, whatever.

I don't even know what she used. It was like, whatever. Tune core or something. Maybe I don't. CD baby. Yeah. She used something to just release them, you know. She burns CDs.

She burns a lot of her. And she, yeah, she released the songs. And then it was once we like, started. to realize that the relationship was, it felt like good. Like I was like, oh, we're, we like, you like working with me on these songs. I like working with you. Like we're writing, our creative relationship is good.

So let's like create a label to release these songs. And then we partnered up with islands. Because then we like, you know, we basically had the record almost done. We had like 90% finished. And so it was like, okay, like we have the record. We've A and Art it. We had like, Chapel had like all of the visuals

she wanted for it already like picked out. And then we were just like, okay, we just needed someone to act like a, you know, a major distributor to like actually release this, you know. Amazing. I mean, it's cool to see also, you know, it's a very male heavy industry. And it's on the business side of labels. Obviously, there are a lot of great women, A&R people. But to see a younger female artist take control of her career with. a partner like that is really unique.

And it's exciting to watch. And shout out to Ireland, and especially Justin Ishak, my homie, who's having, you know, they're having an amazing moment. Like, what's crazy is you could have probably brought that project to a few places. And I remember Bayshuck saying this to me when he was first starting to work Atlantic. Atlantic wasn't the hottest label. Right. And then, you know, it became really hot.

And then, you know, he goes over to Anoscope that was already doing what it is. and then you go to Warner and it was like, you know, it wasn't the hottest label. Then it became the hottest label. Right. You could have brought this to probably Interscope where you have, you know, a couple of other projects that you work on there really successful. But you go to a label that has was on the come up. And then all of a sudden, you know, Chapel's part of the explosion.

Why do you go to Island and chat up Interscope or instead of anywhere else? I mean, a lot of it had to do with Justin. Justin, we both felt like Justin really understood. what the project was supposed to be and and understood the grandness of it. Like we, you know, to me, I was like, this is like Bowie. This is like Madonna. Like this is like not just like some artist. This is like we're building like an icon here, you know.

And I think that Justin was like was the first one to like pinpoint. Like it's kind of like Bowie and like Madonna. Like, and I'm like, okay, like you see what this could be. You know, like. And so the fact that he sought right away and also. the fact that islands small, like I think that Chapel was afraid of like being a part of a really big label where there's like hundreds of artists. Like islands still felt like somewhat indie in nature in terms of like it doesn't have a

large roster. You get a lot of personalized attention and we felt like she needed that. And so it felt like the right place for her where she can actually like talk to everybody, like the marketing department, the social media. apartment, whatever it is. Like, you can call Justin easily and just talk to him about any, you know, it just felt like, okay, like, it's family vibes. Everyone's readily available for conversation and for like making sure to navigate this in the right way. And that felt like the right place to be. I think a lot of artists want to be Bowie or Madonna, but aren't. And I mean that in a sense.

or it's like the desire to be bombastic and have the, you know, all the different looks and everything. A lot of times people feel like they can't afford that or they can't figure out how to do it. When Chappo was first starting this stuff, it's not like she had the hits. No one was looking. You know, like she made them look. Yeah. How does somebody go from, you know, the conversation you were saying where, well, you're going to have to be the one who goes on TikTok and does this?

Right. To becoming the one who does it. You know, other people are trying, they just can't do it. What does she have? I don't know. I mean, it's, I really feel like it's as simple as, like, she just has it, you know? And it's that feeling, I mean, it's so cliche and so, like, it's so, like, a jean-se-cois, where you're just like, I don't know. Like, you meet the person, you get a feeling.

Like, there's a feeling in your gut, and you go, like, you know, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, They're real. They're not trying to sell you. You don't feel like you're being sold something. Yeah, yeah. You know? I don't know how to explain. One of the cool things of being there when you write a song with somebody is, you know,

nobody's ever heard this song before, but you have because you were there and you remember the process of doing it. Seeing that happen, but on all of the songs and the artists blowing up the way. she's really just growing. How do you, you know, it's cool watching you post like, hey, this is my artist. I'm really excited about this first release and then seeing where it's at. It's cool to just see that from afar. Right.

Does it feel real? Sure. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if real is a, I don't know how to explain it. It's like you definitely want all of it. Like, hmm, how do I say it? I guess it doesn't, none of it really, like, sinks in the right, in the way that you think. It's like, oh, now it's like, it's just, it's, now we're here where we want to be.

We've been trying to get here. So now it all feels like right or something. I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's, there's there. Which we've talked about, you know, it's like, you think that there's, like, a ticker tape parade for you and your success or whatever. And it's like, you don't really know what you're aiming for. You just kind of aiming to move forward. Yeah.

And then, like, these things unravel the way they do. I've talked to Chappell about this, because she's, which I, which I love is that she's not really like, she doesn't, she doesn't care about the numbers. She's like, I just want to make good music and I want to release. And that's always been her philosophy is like, we, like, even making the songs that we've put out and even like putting out good luck, baby, it's just like, I just want to make good music. And when I feel like I have a great song that I, that I've written that I love, I want to put it out in the world because I want to share my passion for this song, you know? And she's like, I don't really care about the numbers or, you know, what it's doing. And even like,

you know, working with her recently. And like, I'm like, this happened. She's like, oh, cool. Like, She's like, she's like not looking, you know? What's an example of that? Like, just even the fact that like, good luck, babe, was like number 10 on, you know, top 10. I was like, it went number top 10. She's like, oh, that's good, right? You know? And you're like, yeah, it's good.

But I guess my point is that is not really that, but just to say that, like, those numbers are, to me, it's exciting. Not because of the actual number, but what's exciting to me and what I've said to her is, like, it's so awesome to think that you made this song that you're so. passionate about and you love and then you can like actually visually see that like and everybody else loves it too and that's a pretty cool feeling you know like just simply that has nothing to do with numbers it's just the fact that like you're just going like no like like two million people listen to this song yesterday you know there's two million people around the world that were like I want to put on this song because it makes me feel good you know and I'm like and that that to me that is what feels great in a day you know yeah and it's different than you know radio

which, you know, is another amazing success. But when people choose to listen to it, they go and they press the button. Yeah. Press the playlist and it gets a stream. It's like they make that. It wasn't thrust upon them. No. They made the effort to go and click on it.

Yeah. It's pretty awesome. I feel so like lucky and excited at the same time for the fact that like it's happening for her because it's just, I mean, she just is that good. There was a podcast that went around an episode that a bunch of the music industry sent me maybe about three years ago. It's just like there's no more superstars in the music business. I'm sure you've heard this too.

And I remember reading that and being really upset when I read that because I just feel like people aren't trying to make superstars. Like, I don't know. I read that and I was like, who wrote this article and who are the ones that they interviewing for this? Because that's not cool to say. Well, you need to devise you. somebody who has a repertoire that can be, you know, if you have a hit and you have nothing below it, you know, if what happened with Good Luck Babe, that was really helpful is that

it wasn't her only song out. Right. So people who were discovering that were like, oh, this is a whole human. Right. This isn't just like the first single that blew up. No. And when somebody has the first single that blows up and they don't have any songs out underneath it, it can be detrimental to their growth.

Instead, like, people can dive into the person. But what's strange is, like, and maybe we talked about it three years ago. I don't think that, right around when that came out. But, you know, people were saying, well, Billy Elish was the last. And it was the same era kind of as, like, Lizzo and all these people kind of, like, broke all at the same time. But they were the last to really get a hold of, like, Instagram when that was big, when that first started, whatever. And then there's the TikTok people, but everyone's, you know, shuffling through. why do people stick?

You ended up with probably the two most obvious examples of that being false. Right. Is that because of the music or is that because of the person? I would hope it's because of both

and like a very, very good combination of both of those things. I think the person is very important, but I don't think you could have a superstar person without and have it feel culturally important without good music.

you know so I would hope that it would be both of those I like to think it's both of those things I think when I work with Olivia and with with Chapel like it's so there's such a craft to the songwriting and there's so much like editing and and reworking and making sure like really really trying to stay true to the process of making a great recording you know and I feel like I think there's a lot of people out there that in the pop world that do it but then there's also a lot that don't spend that much to really like get a song right. Yeah, because you're just releasing something to get something out, you know, versus trying to happen to that's like a method that a lot of people take is just like releasing a bunch of music.

And I think it works, you know, for certain people, but it's not what I, you know, I don't think I asked this then, but was there a mentor on the producing side that really sort of, you know, the few people, I can't remember who it was. Ariel was a big I mean like my mentor like was Ariel and like watching how he made records and when he made like the Haim record or made the Vampire Weekend record he spent like a year making it you know and to me like seeing and being able to be in

like I was never I didn't work on those records at all but I like I'm friends with him so I would periodically over the months of a process see how like a song can evolve and and really learn about like really trying all the avenues for a song Like, does it, do the drums come in here? Does this, is it this tempo? Is it sung hard? Is it sung soft?

Like, you know, like, like really expressing all the different versions of a song, you know? Or, you know, just trying out all the different. You have to have artists that are willing to do that. I feel like a lot of artists are not willing to do that. Well, that's, and I don't work with those artists. Like, I meet artists all the time that, like, people are like, oh, you'd like working with them. And I'll do a day with them.

I'm like, nope. Like, I can tell right away. Like, we are not compatible. You know, I need someone who's willing to come into the studio and hash it out with me and be like, by the way, can you get on the microphone again? I know you sang this already, but can you sing it again? Can you sing it again? Can you try it like this? Can you, can we try it in a different key? Like, it's not feeling right, you know? And even lyrically and all that stuff, it's like that witty lyrics, sometimes that happens right away, but to follow it up is really

hard, you know, to write that verse that can stand, you know, where that verse melody isn't throw away. It isn't, you know, and both Olivia and Chapel, like, we, hash out songs. Like we deep deep guys. Yeah, the good luck babe story is that it had like a million we tried four different keys for the song. We we rewrote the lyrics. We like I mean like part of it was me that I just didn't like actually because I never when we wrote the song like we we laid down a scratch vocal and like it didn't feel like if something felt good about it but it wasn't like to me I wasn't like oh my God like we wrote like the best song ever. But. But, But it, because also the original lyric was good luck Jane.

And I remember like, Chapel was like, that was the original idea, like, was coming up with the name like Jane Doe. She's like, good luck, Jane. And I remember being like, like, I wasn't like sold on Jane, you know. And then like one of the lyrics was, um, the, yeah, you had to stop the world to stop the feeling was originally like you have to stop the world to stop wet dreaming. And that was like, and it was like more playful and it was like sort of like a joke. And then like, and that was literally on the original demo.

And I remember like, I don't know about that. I don't know how I feel about that. I'm not opposed to the, like, using the word wet dream in a song, but it just didn't feel right, you know? And yeah, but like obviously, like, you know, on reflection and having the fact that that Chaplin and I have a relationship, like that we work all the time that I could, she can come over a week later and I could play her at the demo.

And she'd be like, yeah, that's weird, you know? Yeah, you want to re-sing it? Do you want to rewrite that lyric? Like, a lot of people aren't afforded to those opportunities, when they're working with an artist and that, you know, one's in Nashville and you're in L.A. And you got at the demo and people like, where's the demo? You're like, and I'm always, I subscribe to like, I won't send it. You know, like, if someone's like, send us what you got.

I'm like, no, because if you, if I send it to you, you're not going to like it. And then you're going to tell me, you don't like it. And I already know that it's not good, you know, like. So why would I send, why would I do that to myself? But if you gave me another two hours with your artist, I can fix this song. Like, I'm hearing it clearly what needs to be fixed. I just need a little time to fix it. And I can't do it.

I physically can't re-sing this vocal myself. I mean, maybe you can now with AI, but like, but I'm like, no, I need the artist to come back in the room and we need to rewrite this if you even want to hear the demo, you know? This is the most valuable thing that you will probably say in this podcast because I try to tell my producers that are assigned to unknown. and I'm like, hey, man, you know, you don't owe anyone this demo. Right. If you send, every writer you know is going to say, can I have this? Right. You know?

And you can just say, hey, I'm still working on it. Yeah. Or you can say no. Or, like, surprisingly, people are like, oh, okay. Yeah. And if it's, like, yeah. They're not paying you for the song. Right.

And if you send it, all you're doing is setting yourself up for someone to be like, I like, I like the original. Right. Or you're setting someone up for, you know, It really takes somebody who's in it with you who can listen to that demo. How can I beat that? How can I beat that? How can I beat that?

Then you can maybe send it to that one artist or that one co-writer. But I'm always trying to get the producer to be like, just send it to me and let's go over notes together before we send it to the artist. Because we'll refine it 10 times on the production set before the artist hears it. But as soon as they hear it, they're like, you know, it's locked in. I mean, we never made a demo of good luck, babe. I mean, like, because it wasn't good enough to make a demo. Like, when we, when the song was like ready to be listened to by people and it sounded pretty close to what everybody, like, that's when I made a bounce of it.

Yeah. It sat on my hard drive for a year and a half. Yeah. As like a, as like literally like a little idea that was sitting on my hard drive, you know. And it wasn't until we found the right key. And then, like, actually like, I found, like, I, like, because it was just like a, like a little loop. And then when I actually, like, in the room with her, like, started adding some, like, some, like,

some like synth strings just as like a like is this like a string are we doing like strings in the song and she was like yeah i like that and then i kind of just like took that idea and ran with it like okay this is going to be like this like baroque pop like thing you know but it was never we didn't write it with that intention that was never like the thought when we were writing the song was going to feel like that yeah you you can only get that on the fifth time of editing a song you know it's weird because if you went in writing that it would stifle probably melody and lyric yeah no because we wrote the whole song was just over like literally like a synth loop.

It was like the chords that you hear in the song, which is like that on a loop, the chords never, the chords never changed. And then later on after we like wrote the song, I changed the chords to the pre-chorus. Pre-chorus, you know. But, yeah.

Well, that brings us to the next segment of what would Justin Tranner asked Dan Nygron and the writer is? And he asked, I'm always so inspired when you talk about how when you find artists and writers that you love writing with, you just dig into that instead of getting sucked into the endless LA speed dating writing spin cycle. I feel very, is there more too the question? Yeah, it's a long question.

Can I answer that part? Well, first he says, how do you make that choice? That's the actual question. But that, you know, he just said basically, how do you have the confidence to dive that deep when everyone else is getting the advice of? I don't understand why people do that, what the speed dating thing. I did it. Okay, I guess I'll say I learned from experience.

I was very fortunate when I moved to L.A. I, well, some people would call it fortunate. Somebody would call it like I was living a little hermit in a cave. But basically, I moved to L.A. I was living with my friend Justin, and we were writing, Justin Raisin, and we were writing songs together. And we wrote, we just would write these ideas for REL. We spent literally two years of our lives.

And we were fortunate because we were doing some commercial work on the side. So we were able to pay our bills. So that part was taken care of. So we weren't stressed out about how are we going to make ends meet and taking gigs that we didn't really want to take to like that would suck up a lot of our time. Because I know that that happens for a lot of producers where they take on projects because it's the only way

that they can live month to month. But we were very fortunate. We landed a couple of commercials and then it afforded us time to kind of spend time working on our craft of songwriting. And we spent a good two years just writing songs for like what I call song starters for like you know artist that are all was working with and and I realized that because we had such a close just and I were like had a really good writing relationship and then

are all such a good producer that it was like a very symbiotic relationship for a while and then when that kind of like you know ran i don't want to say it ran its course but like you know i moved into i moved into a different house and then like i want i was getting better at production and i want to start doing my own thing. I spent like three years, maybe four years, doing that. Like, like, oh, so-and-so wants to work with you. This new artist that's like, and I'm like, oh, they're cool. And then I'd spend two days with them. And then the next two days I spent with another artist that was like kind of cool and up and coming. And then, oh, this big artist, like, likes your Sky Ferreira song. They want to work with you. And I spend a week with them. And then it's like, on then you have all

these productions piling up and these like half written songs and like you're looking back like at the last month or two that you did and you're like none of these songs are any good I don't really believe in any of this right now like and you're trying to finish these demos for people because obviously you want people to you got to finish the work that you're doing and I just did that for so long and it ended up with like nothing I always say nothing like that's not a knock on the artist that I work with at the time and I feel like I did obviously write some good songs in that time but I didn't end up with what you ended up with once you stopped that Right, exactly. And I feel like there's there needs to be much more of like, I wish that writers and producers like had a little bit more passion for the artists and like really found that like artists that they believed in and actually spent time with them.

Because I think that as a writer or producer, that's how you're going to win, you know? And that like, that's just how you're going to like end up having songs that matter and songs that mean things to people. It's like when you really like spend the time to get to know them and really help them like, you know, nurture, like, their own creativity so that they can really, like, flourish as an artist, then it's like, it's better for everybody, because then the artist ends up with better songs, you end up with better songs and songs that you believe in, and I think the songs actually end up lasting, like, standing the test at time, you know? And too many people just, like, I have, you know, producers that I work with that, I don't want to say, I'm not mentoring them. I wouldn't say they would ever call me, like, I'm their mentor, but definitely, like, people

that come to me for advice and like, and I always get like so confused when I'm just like, oh yeah, I did this, my schedule. I'd be like, I remember like this, like a writer or producer that I'd be like,

oh, cool, you were to come over next week, work on this song. They're like, oh, I'm really booked up next week. And I'm like, you're booked up with what? Like,

what are you booked up with? Like, well, I have this new artist coming in. I'm like, you were booked up with a lot of bullshit. You know, like,

that's like, none of it's important. So you pick a day to cancel one of those sessions and come over because I'm working on these songs right now, and I need some help, you know? Like, and it's like, but it's like, it's like this rat race that everyone's in

to try to just like, like, book as many sessions with as many people. I was like, that's not what this is about. It's about like finding one. And I remember asking like a writer, like, well, do you like work with that person? Like, yeah. And I'm like, how many sessions you have with them?

Like, none. And I'm like, well, then book more with that person. Like, if you wrote a good song with that person, spend 20 days with that person. You know, like, that's what you need because that's like, that's what happened with chapel. and I. That's what happened. Like, Olivia and I didn't get the driver's license on day one.

We got the driver's license on day 25, you know? NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published, or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you.

They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use Splice. And I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice. But if you don't, you need to start using Splice.

They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of. But they take care of their original creators. In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite. Unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators. Every time you use Splice's AI tool, it triggers a licensing event for those original creators. So there's not a better company that I can think of right now. that you can use, where you can use the efficiency of AI, and also know that you're taking care of the creators.

And that is Splice. That's what happened with Chaplin and I. That's what happened. Like, Olivia and I didn't get the driver's license on day one. We got the driver's license on day 25, you know? It just takes such confidence in, you know, I mean, first of all, a lot of the writing community is based around pitch songs, which gets really complicated in an era where so few pitch songs are getting cut.

Right. You know, I mean, I think there's still value in the idea of crafting songs with fellow writers whose goal is to write a great song. Sure. Not to say just to, you know, there's versions of the not writing with an artist that can still be committed to great material. But I think what you're saying about creating great artists, and even a lot of times great art.

I mean, when you mentioned Madonna as a reference, like so many of her songs are outside songs. In fact, all of them in the beginning are outside songs. Are they? She didn't write Like a Virgin. That's Billy Steinberg. Yeah, but what about what was her first, what was her first hit off of the first record?

Holiday. No, not Holiday. Well, you know, it's cool. It's like, wait, hold on. I'm on the internet. Burning Up. She wrote Burning Up. That was her first hit, wasn't it?

I don't know, but I'm going to look it up, and we're going to keep talking. Look up Burning Up. Tell me another story while I look this up. Tell me a random story that has nothing to do with music. I went and saw Madonna live a few months ago, and she played Burning Up on guitar, because the version that's like the on, you know, that was recorded is like this really like fun kind of like synthy, like it sounds like other songs from that era, but she played it like on a distorty guitar and I was just I just remember thinking like this song is so fucking

cool and I'm pretty sure it was like her first single and I think she wrote it herself I mean that's I think I think the idea of um I'm I get I get what you're saying no writing the songs with other songwriters is actually really great I think and and and nurturing those relationships and writing great songs with them is is also really important but like when you hear I'm talking more specifically about the rat race of like like, you know, even, even songwriters that just like, oh, I'm meeting this writer today, and then I'm meeting this writer. And then the next day I have a session with this artist, and there's a brand new artist. And they're like, there's, like, you just need time to develop

songs, you know? They just, yeah, whether it's with another writer or it's with another artist, it's just like every great, every, I shouldn't say great because, you know, they're my song. So I, some people probably think they're terrible. But every song that felt like it was an important song for my career, I think about how long it took to get that song to be, feel good. And it was definitely like more than three days, you know? Yeah, it's something. I got a lot of that through the MXM world.

You know, they really treat in the Luke world, all that stuff. They really treat songs like when you do a sound recording, you know, the final sound recording, it better be flawless. Right. And it better be something that, you know, is familiar and unique. It needs all the elements to make a great recording. And those just don't happen in the day of. Even if the resemblance of the song can happen day of, that final recording.

And I could see as the person who has the song on their hard drive for a year and a half, like, why are you rushing, sending some version other than the final? Right. And you're also, you know, how many finishers are there, so they say, as producers. you know, a lot of writers and producers can get a song up to, you know, to the 90, 95%, but not to the 100% that you can do. So if you know what 100% song sounds like. I mean, that point is a little, I mean, I get what you're saying. I get, you're right.

But also, it is weird. Like, it's kind of a subjective, like, of like, of like, to me, like, I know a lot of producers that, like, are really, like, tweak. I mean, I will, like, there's certain songs where I tweak and tweak. and tweak and like lose my mind over it. And there's definitely songs that I've made where I'm just like, I don't know, it feels good. Like, I don't know. The drums right?

And I'm like, people ask, I don't know. It doesn't feel like it hits as hard as I want or blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, all I can say is that when I listen to it, I like, and that's all I care about. And like, if I like it, if I like it, and it makes me feel good every time I listen to it and I want to listen to it again, I'm not going to like overthink it, you know? But obviously, there's other times when I'm like, I'm overthinking it. And I'm like, I can't get this chorus to hit the right way and I'm spend days on it.

But other times I'm just like, I don't know. Like, don't, if it feels good, let's move on. Well, this can answer some of your question about Madonna, which I do think is interesting in looking further. Am I wrong? Apologies. No, no, you're right. You're right on it, but it's not on every song.

You know, her first two songs, she used the writer. Obviously, she's not, you know, necessarily the producer on them. And the Burning Up's B side is physical attraction, which she's. she didn't write and holiday she didn't write. And so it's like, it's just interesting that when you're talking about your, you know, a lot of curation and outside songs can be part of an artist's career. Sure. And that's, uh, maybe it's because of your ability to write, but you've also found artists that are also good songwriters. But there are, there are some artists that you've worked with in the past that probably could use an outside song, I'm sure.

I'm sure yes yes I'm sure you know and it's not not because of you necessarily you know I'm just saying why you say I can't write a good song for them no I like it for sure there are opportunities to find outside songs and be like have you tried those ever on an artist or yeah I mean I've I've I've taken I've listened to pitch songs for artists you know like I'm always open for it it's really hard like especially with like, I mean, I feel like I have a very specific, I think what's important, like, for most producers and songwriters is to find what you're good at. I think it took me a really long time to find, like, what my role in the music industry was. It's like what, like, and you have, you know, people that, like, for instance, like, Ariel was my mentor and he was like doing

a specific thing. And I think for a certain time when I was like, younger and coming up, I was like, well, this is what he's doing. So I should do that, you know? And then you learn. He's so fortunate to have that as your person, you know? Sure, but I realize that I was a very different person than him. It took me years to realize, like, oh, like, I'm actually just a little bit more on the pop side of things. Like, he's a little bit more indie. And, like, my taste just happens to run more pop.

And I just want things to feel like a little bit more, like, in the formula. And it makes me feel better when I listen to it, though. And it's just what I like, you know? And I think, but I also realize, like, what's my skill set? was like, Ariel is like incredible. He's so production heavy and like the sounds. And I'm like, my skill set is more so like, like, if I find an artist that has a great lyrical concept of what they want to talk about, I've always been a melody person.

Like I was always melody first. That was always my thing, you know? When I wrote songs myself, I like wrote melodies and then it was like like scrambling to find lyrics to work with the melodies that I was writing, you know? And I just was always like about the feeling like. when I would write songs even as a teenager, I'd be like, oh, yeah, like, these chords feel so good with this melody. And I'm like, I don't know what it's supposed to be, but like the song about, but I just know that when I sing this melody with these chords, it feels really good, you know?

And then I started to realize, like, well, I think that's actually what I'm naturally gifted at is, like, the melody and the chords and, like, the way that things feel against each other. And I work better with an artist that has a concept that they're, they want to say, because I could kind of fill in the, if they're lacking, like, obviously, like Olivia and Chappell both write melodies and chords, and they write their own songs, but there's times where they do come in with just a concept, you know, and an idea for a song, and I love that part of it, being like, oh, that lyric, like, that feels like it's like these types of chords, or to give them the option of, like, so is it more like these minor chords? Do you want something

major here? Like, does the melody, like, really lift? Do you want it to feel like the, the melody like goes like this the whole time and like being able to like work with an artist that that has that lyrical identity and I could kind of like do my thing and the things that I'm confident in around them works really well and but that's not but other people aren't like me it just so happens that I learned after years of you know trial and error that I was like oh this is this is what I'm good at and I need to work with artists that are that these are their fortays so that I can compliment them. I think there's another good time to point out

how many great producers were in bands, and how many great writers were in bands. Right. You know? Everyone in this room was in a band. Every, like, you go to the, Justin Tranner was in a band and,

you know, you have, but go to the producers, like the Jack Antonovs and Ricky Reed and Ryan Tudder and, And go down the list, and it's like there's something about the collaboration and knowing that what you do in the room is to compliment other people in the room. And you can't have, I know obviously some of those people have large egos. But you have to be able to listen to other people and see what they need and fill in that void.

Right. You know, otherwise it's like, you know, you can always write a song by yourself. Do you ever do that anymore? Like is there ever a part of you that's like, you know, I'm going to write a song by myself? Yeah, I do. I've written a couple of songs that I've written with artists, like are like seeds of songs that I wrote by myself. Would you ever, would you ever release a project again? I don't think so.

I don't know. I don't ever. That's not a closed door. I always like what, like when I got done with actually, with like Olivia and because like I kind of finished both Olivia and Chapples records at the same time in the like the summer of last year. and like I I purposely took like the rest of the year off I didn't want to like work on anything so I kind of just like took time and I had these ideas where I was like hmm should I just start working on music by myself you know and then I was just like nah I don't want to do that but I kept on thinking about it how do you take time off it's easy take time off

how do you like I don't know take it time I took like probably five months off yeah I don't you feel like that like that just do you get nervous of what nervous of what I don't know maybe losing momentum or creativity or like no I don't know I feel like that's the like this makes sense if I'm talking to a Scandinavian who takes you know summers off and stuff like that but I feel like there are very few Americans that aren't full workaholics it sounds like you're not a workaholic I mean I work pretty hard but I should say that I hadn't taken time off in a long time and having a baby at home and like, right, right, right.

That changes it in. I actually, you know what? I tried over the summer. Was I like timing up a paternity leave kind of thing? I took, I took two or three months off when, when social was born. But, but, but yeah, I was just like, I got done with the records and I felt so, like, creatively spent that, like, I mean, I was doing, it wasn't like I was doing nothing. I was like, you know, like, I remember, like, in, I took, stopped working in July and then, like,

Chapples was starting to plan for headlining tour and I would go to like some rehearsals and like help like with some stuff like I'm not like taking like fully just like I'm not vacationing you're just not necessarily grinding I'm not right I wasn't grinding just to do the next album yes I think I learned after like trying like a session or two

like I'd go into the studio with someone and I'd just be like I don't want to be here I don't want to be here I don't have anything like if I don't feel like I have anything good to contribute to this session then I'm just like working to work and that's not like fun like you know no it's fun to have uh an objective even if it is you know uh a fictitious project that you're not going to release you know but having something you know having something to write may going into a room where there's no real purpose yeah is really tough it's really tough to do that you know and i think a lot of you know when you first

are coming up in the business and you don't have Ariel as your mentor or and the industry is like do two sessions a day. You know, for a lot of those people, that's where they learn all the different techniques and they get their 10,000 hours and they do all those things during that grind. Right. And that, you know, I wouldn't say that people from the beginning should be taking months off. Everyone takes six months off right now. Like you kind of have to, I don't want to see if to earn that.

But a little bit, like if you really want to learn, you know, the best way. to do it is to grind through some of those sessions that you're like, why am I here? And the purpose that at that moment is like to write something that these co-writers wouldn't have had otherwise, like find some motivation in that room to finish a good song. Or maybe just walk out. I don't know. Maybe it just gave terrible advice. I've walked out of a couple of sessions. Have you really? Yeah. How were you, did you have an excuse? No, just like, I don't, I think I've a couple times, be like, eh, you know what? This isn't working out for me. I don't, I don't leave. Was that awkward or was it just? I, I'm, I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm

I've made it awkward a couple of times. On purpose? Yeah, just for fun. Yeah. Classic. Okay, so let's go with some more of your co-writers on that note. This segment is called What Would Steff Jones Ask Dan Nygrove on? And the writer is.

And she asks, what's on your guilty pleasure playlist? Guilty pleasure, but I don't think I have any guilty pleasures because I just love everything I'm listening. But lately, I've been just listening to. to, I've been, like, exploring, like, playing music for my daughter. And right now, her new obsession, which I'm really excited about, is just Mariah Carey. Oh, yeah. And so we're just, like, listen to, like, a lot of Mariah Carey right now. We just listen, basically, we just listen to always be my baby and touch my body over and over again.

And it's just like this endless loop. And then she just wants to dance with me in the, in the living room to the two songs. And it's really fun. She then asked, do you have any pre-writing studio rituals? I don't have I mean not really however I found myself this is something that has happened a couple times where I noticed it about myself that like I if the session is at a certain time I usually like to be in the room like for an hour but I guess this is a pre-writing it's not a ritual but usually about like an hour before a session I think I need to be in the room and like in front of

my computer or playing the piano, like not necessarily even trying to come up with an idea for the session, but I just need to be ready for the session. Like mentally, like, I'm in this space and I'm there. And I realized actually recently, like, it's, it happened once or twice, like this year where like I had a session and the session was like, say if it was for like 12, the artist like shows up, like has to show up late for two hours or something. And it really like if I think my body like is, if my body's preparing for. for 12 o'clock. If it gets past a certain time, you. I've like lost the, I, then I'm no longer ready. Creatively flaccid. Yeah, creatively flaccid, yeah. What's a happy accident that ended up

in a song? A happy accident that happened in the song. That's a good question. What's a happy accident that happened in a song? I'm trying to think of, trying to think of like a, I'm, Maybe I try to think of a good one for Chapel and one for Olivia, like happy accidents. I don't know of a happy accident. I'm trying to think of a, one doesn't like really come. Okay, a happy accident was our song, Chapel and I song Feminonomenon happened sort of, I don't want it. We, we hadn't worked together in a while. I remember it was like December of 2021 maybe or I think it was December of 2021.

Maybe it was 22. But basically, I mean, it must have been 2021. But basically she came over and we hadn't worked together in like a month or two. And we only had this one day to make music. And we both walked in the room and were both like really exhausted. Like it was like we both like she had been doing other things. And I like I think I forget what I was doing. But like she came over and we both kind of looked at each.

other and like after like an hour of like talking or something it was like we both were like I don't know if we want to write a song today you know and then I was like okay I was like this is we can't waste this day like this day needs to happen like we we only have this is the last day of the year that we're working together like we have to write something and I was like what if we just write a song with one word I was like, you know, like, I forget, there's like a song that my wife always plays, like, there's like, I forget what, it's like a popular 80s song where it's just like one lyric, like one line over and over again, it's like the whole song. I was like, let's just come up with like a dance song with one word or like one phrase, you know?

And she was like, yeah, cool. Like, let's do it. And I just like put in like a, a dry kick snare. And then I started like playing the baseline of the chorus. like on my like my MS 20, like we found a baseline that we liked. And I just started looping that, looping the baseline. And I, and then basically like feminine amon, like we just were like, let's come up with something like ridiculous,

like just one word that we could just sing over and over again. And then that song, that's kind of how feminine ammonon happened. And so the funny thing was that we were like, and I was so like, this is our parameters. Like we need to just write a song with one word. And then we came up with the word. And it was like, I think I, like said like phenomenal. I was like phenomenon. Like we were like feminine. We like we came up with the

word with the word and then we like we like thinking about it. And then and then I was like, ah, fuck. I was like, but what would make the song really cool is if it was like a fake out and we actually wrote a song and then it went into this part. And so like that's that song came out as sort of an accident, you know. Great. What's your favorite candle in your studio? A peyote poem by Byrano. Okay. And then, uh, what's your favorite song? that you've ever written on July 2nd, 2024? That was another stuff, James. It's called To Be Yours.

Cool. Hopefully that one comes out. Okay, next segment is, and this will lead into a few more things here, but what would Amy Allen ask? Dan Niagara on, and the writer is. You have a lot of friends, apparently. Danny Boy, one of your most impressive qualities, amongst others, is your instinct on the right projects to develop,

which we've sort of talked about, and you were saying, you know, but what about an artist makes them stand out to you? And the reason why I didn't mind repeating that question is because you were like, well, you know, I just have a feeling. Well, I meet a lot of artists too, and I have met people where I'm like, I have this feeling and they didn't become Chaparone. So what, you know, have your feeling ever been wrong? You know what? I'm going to say the most egotistical thing I've ever said. My feeling is never wrong. I've never been wrong about an artist that's going to make it or not make it.

That's crazy. Yeah. That makes you very valuable. I met, I will say, I don't know if she remembers this, but I met Dua Leipa in 2014 before she was even signed. Maybe it was even 2013. It was really early on. I went to the UK for a writing trip. And she was signed, she was with TAP at the time.

And Gabs was working at TAP. and they were like, hey, we have this artist. And before I went, and I was a no name writer. I had no, I think maybe the Sky Ferrer songs were my only credits at the time. And they were like, we have this artist, do a leap of a. And I was like, well, can you send me music? And they were like, no. They were like, no, you're not sending you music.

We promise you that you'll like her that she's really talented. And I was like, and I was like, I never work with an artist. I need to hear the music to see if I like it. And they were like, please, like, we promise, like, she's incredible. And so I went into the UK and I met her and I worked and I did a day with her. And the session was like a, like, the session just went wrong. Like there was like, there was another writer in the room and like they had a concept that was like a little bit like I remember I was like trying to follow along and we ended up like

writing a bad song. But all I can say was that I walked in the room and I was like after two hours of being in the room. I was like, wow, this girl is a fucking superstar. I was like, this girl is a superstar. And I emailed Gabs after the session in 2014. I said, we wrote a terrible song, but this girl is a superstar. Like, congratulations. Yeah, I remember working with her where it was like, yeah, I wrote, I have them. They're not great songs with her. And but she was, what was really exciting was like, oh, cool, there's an alto. I remember when she's saying, I was like, oh, raspy alto is so exciting because it was just like, it's just so rare. It's so rare to have a pop star.

It was like that. But I think the whole dance. Chapo's an alto too. There you go. Well, I guess we'll then have to work together. And then Amy asks, what do I have to do to get a Polaroid on your wall? She has a Polaroid on my wall. She says, what do I have to do to get on your Polaroid wall, so maybe I mess at the order. There's a lot of people that forget that they have a Polaroid. I just worked with somebody recently, too, that they were like, oh, I don't have a Polaroid. I was like, yeah, you do. I have a signature book that everyone signed.

I'm pretty sure. And then there are a couple people who signed it twice because they were convinced that they weren't in. They didn't have it. Also, I would like to say that, like, one of them would always show up really high. So it's like kind of mean.

When, you know, Amy obviously worked on some of the newer Olivia stuff. Last time we met, like, Gus hadn't even come out yet. Right. Vampire is so good.

Thank you. It's such a good song. In this era where people are trying to do two minute 30 second songs what makes you does that make you want to do you know

Bohemian Rhapsody does that make you, does it make you want to yes I mean it makes you want to do the opposite you know what's funny you know what's funny because you know I think it's all bullshit like these this whole like obviously like I get why like a two minute song works and it makes sense and it does work

it works for the Beatles a lot of times but like Queen outstreams the Beatles like if you look at Queen's discography, their hits have twice as many, maybe three times as many streams as Beatles songs do? That's why they're cataloged you sold for a billion dollars to Sony. Like people like epic music. People love it, you know? And especially if people are afraid, like, if we're saying that songwriters are afraid to write like things because they have to fit into

a mold of two minutes, like, if there's a rarity for other things, it only makes it more exciting. Totally. I think what the issue is when you just, you just, you just, you just nailed it, which is that the streamed version of those songs are amazing. And if you're still trying to, and what helps is a vampire, I wonder if that was her first single. If that was where driver's license was, would it get the same kind of love? Or did she earn the right to release vampire? It's a great song, but like, do you, Bohemian Rhapsody didn't come out first. No. You know, so, was it their first big single? I don't know. Queen? Yeah, was it their first, I mean, I just know the movie.

I don't know what I'm going to watch the movie. So I'm not really sure exactly, but it wasn't first. And they didn't want them to release it. It was too long and all this. Like radio itself is a, your music when you're on radio is a commercial for the commercials. You're trying to keep people there long enough to listen to the commercials. So they're trying to keep people's attention by moving through songs. They're not trying to play November rain.

They're not trying to play November rain on MTV every day at 3 o'clock when I got home to school. They played November rain and they played like, you know, all these great songs that are seven, eight, nine minutes long. You know, you just, it's so rare and vampire isn't that. But it is an epic journey from front to finish. Was there anybody that was like, you know, we should do a radio cut? nobody said it should be a radio kit but my one of my I've I've told the story I think before which is um but when we made the song it was like like all this like you know we've been talking about so far like it was a process like um Olivia brought in the idea for the song and it was like

basically it was the chorus was pretty similar there's some different lyrics but melodically it was it was pretty similar and like the tag was pretty much the same um I think we tweaked like a couple of words of the tag and stuff. But we rewrote the verses and then we laid down a scratch of that. And then later on wrote a second verse and then the second chorus. And then the bridge happened like later, like after we had produced out like two different versions of the song and decided that it was going to be like an uptempo song. Because my first original production was actually when the second verse hit in the drum sitting,

it was like more of like a laid back. like it was like it was like more of like a just a chill beat you know and because i because when we wrote it to me it was like it was a ballot you know and olivia actually was like no i don't want it to sound like that like it needs like starts to drive and i was like oh okay cool so um anyway so we made that and then we made the bridge we wrote the bridge like a month later and then we recorded the bridge and then it was like taking me figure like figure out ways to make the transition so i started putting those big hits in there. And it was like, which is like all piecemeal together at this point of just like figuring

out like, okay, and we're building this like this journey, right? Yeah. And so we were excited. I was like, I was like starting to get excited about it. And this was the, I remember it was like the end of January of February 2020. Three, I guess it was last. Yeah, January, February. And the label and, you know, everyone like on her team was like getting like, you know,

like, where's music? And like, we're not sending many many. demos out. We're not sending stuff. And I hate what we talked about for like sending out a demo. So we've invited some people to the studio. We're not going to send you demos because we don't want to get anybody to get attached to any of this music. But if you guys want to come in one day and listen, you can. We'll play you some of the ideas that we're working on. So you know that we're working. We're not just fucking around, you know. And so, and we were really excited about vampires. So I think that might have even been the first song out of like the batch of new

songs that we were working on that we played them. And I remember we play it for her managers, who I love, they're amazing. And I just remember playing it. And we get done. And they just like looked up and they were like, it sounds like three songs and one. And we were like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And they were like, okay. But like, it sounds like three songs in one. And we're like, yeah. Like, cool. We're on the same page. So we all agree. But they were very very like, okay, well, and then I remember like this, like, I remember like Olivia was like in the corner just like, like, like, and I was like no, no, no, it's good. I just, it's making me realize I just need to work on the transitions. Like it's not, I felt very confident, like this is going to

be good. I just haven't nailed the, the, the, the way it flowed together yet, you know? It's like that three songs sweet from, from, uh, uh, okay computer. The three songs suite for, or like what November rain is or what you know all these great it was so exciting to hear that because again it's this time where I think people are so scared of keeping their jobs as songwriters that they're they're just trying to get songs out and they're they're trying to placate the label and do the things and not create art um so it was really exciting to hear an artist feel confident that now this is my first single. And I mean, the song's great, but it also, it's like, it's a risk. Yeah, but I think the people need, I mean, I guess maybe it's easy. I feel like maybe

like it's stupid for me to say it, but I just, I don't, I just think people need to actually just take more risks, you know? I think people want, I mean, like, listen, people want like simple pop songs all the time. I love simple pop songs, but I think there's like, there's like a, you know, a journey that we all go on as listeners of what we want to listen to. And sometimes we want really happy music, Sometimes we want sad. Sometimes I want to listen to always be my baby with my daughter like a hundred times in a row. And sometimes I want to listen to like a queen song and like digested in a different way alone or something. You know, like I think that listeners just want lots of different music.

They do want two minute pop songs, but they also want five minute songs. Is it is, is it easy? It's like like writing for is for right now it feels like, you know, you have the mightest touch right now, you know, is it easy for you? No, none of making music is easy. And I always find that to be weird that people think that music should be easy. Like, I remember... It's hard as shit.

Like, I remember... It's so hard to write something good. It's so easy to write music. It's really hard to write something good. I had a revelation with an old therapist of mine that actually passed away, like back in 2016, I remember I was going through like a, right before I actually feel like I like came into my stride. I would say like I, I think I hit like a lot of clarity around 2017, 18. And right before then I was going to a therapist and like figuring out some stuff in my life. And I was

really unhappy of my place in the music industry. And I felt like I've been out here for like six years at the time. And I like really like didn't have much to show for it. And I remember, I forget the exact words that were used. But something were. like, I was like, well, you know, just working like, yeah, we got a good song, but it really wasn't fun. Like, I didn't have any fun working with them. And, and my therapist was like, fun. Like, it's your job, you know? I was like, yeah. He's like, so what makes your job, why does your job have to be fun? And I was like, I guess it doesn't. And like, is that a prerequisite for a good song? Is it has to be fun to make? And I was like, no. And it's like, so is that like your,

your idea of a session? If like, if it's fun, then it was good? you know and I really like hit me I was like right like actually making songs like sometimes writing good songs suck you like it's actually not fun not I always say I like having written a song I don't I always say I like having written a song I never really like no one likes writing if you there's the party vibe and like don't get me wrong you know you end up writing sometimes at writing cancer there's 10 people in a room and you you're having a blast and you get your 10% but it's so much fun and and that song turned out to sound like a party.

Like, that's fine. But if you're going to write that song that if you're going to have four different keys for good luck, babe, and all those things, like some of that, it's hard and it's annoying and it sucks to do. But you like having written it. Yeah. You like having written at the end of it all. Yeah. You're proud of it.

You're proud of it later on. Like, that's more of the feeling is like you want to feel good about it later. You don't have to feel good about while you're doing it. Yeah. Are you working on anything right now? now or are you in a place where you know uh i mean i guess i know you're working on chapel right now sure is that then taking up all your time or it's taking i mean i i like it to take up my time because i believe in it and i want i don't want to be distracted by other things like i'm i help

with a few other things here and there you know but right now my main focus is trying to get like new music for that in a good place uh are the other artists you work with um do you i guess this is interesting, you know, someone like Conan had worked with other people after you. Yeah. And similarly, you've had a chapel who worked with other producers and then worked with you after them. Right. You know, do you feel as, you know, for me as almost a, I feel like an independent contractor within the business where I'm always working on different projects and different things.

There are a few that I get to do full albums with. do you feel do you feel any which way when an artist is like, I just want to try something different or do you feel any which way when someone says, I need you to get me out of this situation?

I mean, I always just want what's best for the artists. I really do. There are times when I feel like I can give the artist exactly what they're looking for and there's other times when I feel like I can't. And even like on chapel,

record, there's like a couple of songs where I had some co-production on it because I was like, she wants this to feel a certain way. And like, I'm probably not the best person to like get this style of production. So I'm going to bring somebody else in to help me because it's going to make this process better, you know? And there's other times where I'm like, I want to do it all myself because I actually know exactly what it's supposed to be. And I've tried to bring in other people and they've messed it up. And I'm like, then I have to fix the mistakes. And I'm just like, I sometimes like to keep it insular just for the fact of like, I just know I'll get it done. it might take a while, you know, but I know exactly what the outcome should be, so I'll just

leave it that way. And other times I'm like, no, like, I need help. You know, like, let's, give me some help here, you know. But I guess, no, I feel like, I feel like whatever works best for the artist, if an artist feels like they want to do a certain thing, you know, they should go do that thing, you know? And if they feel like they need my help and, and I'm the right person for the job, then it's usually pretty aligned that that's the case, you know. All right, let's go to this next segment of five for five. I list five things. Tell me what comes off the top of your head. Great.

All right. Okay. I asked this last time, but I'm going to ask it again, as tall as lions. How am I supposed to... I don't know. Like, how does it make... The perspective difference of four years and about 10 more hits later, what do you, do you think anything different about the band that kind of established you?

I don't know what. I actually don't remember when I answered the first time, but to... I love as tall as lions. I'm super proud of what we did. I think it was the most formative thing for me to be. become a producer was to work on the interpersonal dynamics of having lots of people in the rooms, all with different types of egos and different, what you would call it, like, wanting to get different things out of songs that it really informed how I work with an artist. And I don't

think that if I ever came from a band, I wouldn't ever be able to do what I do. You know, I, to say that simply put, I wouldn't be able to be the producer that I am without that experience, you know. Similar. Sour. So again? Sour. Sour.

Yeah. I mean, what a trip. What a wild ride. That's a, you know, I still, Olivia and I still look back on it and go like, what, like, what a crazy experience that was. What a beautiful experience. And, and, I'm trying to think of like, I mean, there's so many feelings about

sour, but it's, it's amazing that. that so many people were able to connect with those songs. And it feels like it still hasn't gone away. You know, like people are still listening to the record just as much as they were two years ago. And guts. Guts, I love guts so much. It was, I think you can, Olivia would attest to it.

It was one of the hardest things to make. You know, the follow-up to... It's way harder. Making a second record is so. hard. Especially, I've kind of talked to, I actually talked about this with so many people recently, like, and not only just like chapel, but other artists like working on their second, talking about second records and the pressure of making a second record. And it's like, it's basically like you look at your first record is this mountain, you know, that like you built.

And it's built with like songs, production, you know, positive press reviews, Grammys, whatever you want to, whatever is on this mountain that you've like, that has amassed over the course of one, two, three, four years that you're looking at. And then you start on album two, and you have nothing. You're literally looking at like a shovel and some dirt. And you're like, and then on day one, you're like, you move some dirt over to the mound and you still, you look at the other mountain and you're like, well, that still doesn't look like that, you know. And then you add a couple more scoops of dirt. And every day you're kind of just like you're just trying to build a new mountain you know but you're still you're you're with those first few you know shovels in hand with nothing nothing to show for it and

it's it makes it really daunting and it's but it's a crazy process and it's it's kind of awesome amusement records amusement records i don't know it's my baby well it's interesting they say that's your baby when you've got a lot of things that are you know uh you've put a lot of effort and a lot of things but that's a little different than writing a song. Yeah, I mean, I think from the experience with Chapel about like not so much the experience of making the record so much or like, you know, the rise and fall, but simply just like I learned from myself. I learned what I learned about myself in getting involved in this project was how much

I like the A&Ring part of it and how much I like being involved in more than just writing a song. and helping an artist navigate all the bullshit of the music industry is like, you do it enough times and meet enough, like, you know, strange characters along the way that, like, you feel like you could be helpful to someone else. And so I'd like to build it more, you know? I haven't, I haven't, like, sign anything new yet.

And I'm, you know, I'm looking at things, but I haven't, you know, I haven't figured out the next step in it. But it's like, it's on the, it's in the forefront of my mind. Well, you're probably about to get a thousand DMs after this comes up. Um, your, um, uh, uh, your daughter. Sosia is, I don't know. I mean, she's the most incredible little, I call it, we call her the bean. She's the bean. You know, I have a, you know, uh, almost three year old. He'll be three by the time this comes out.

And I, and a, you know, a five-month-old daughter. And we do the same thing. We just went through a Mariah. And like, I just feel so important to play, I play a lot of like great female artists. You know, that's a big thing, making sure we listen to, by the way, it's also important for my son to listen to that too and vice versa. So it's, you know, but I just think that there are a lot of great vocalists and for some reason I just feel like that's, I'm already trying to get her to hear strong, smart women. Sure. And, you know, going through the Mariah thing is cool. But I think it's important that you know that there are dads out there. there who are now playing Olivia and are now playing Chapel the way that, you know, playing

Alanis or playing whatever it was, you know, Mariah or whatever we want to play from other things. Like, you are creating, when I, I was kind of proud of saying you're a conductor of the zeitgeist. It's kind of like, it's amazing that what you're doing is really establishing, a conversation with those two million streams a day on one song from one artist. I mean, you know, it's really remarkable. And it's because you are taking the time to make sure that that transition is important. Sure. And you're making sure that that lyric is actually not Jane, but something more universal

or something that is more communicative. You know, you're putting in the effort on the song. songwriting and that's where it starts. So that way all the image stuff and all the other things can then support the importance of fucking transitions in the song. And everyone so wants to get through that and they all want to feel success or fame or whatever they're aiming for in music, but they don't realize that that's not really a thing until you care about the transition.

Sure. Yes. So, you know, look, this is your second interview on this day. I'm sure you'll have like 90 when we're really old and more gray. But I just appreciate you doing this. But I appreciate your work and your work ethic. And the artists you're putting out really matter for all of us with daughters. Thank you.

I appreciate that very much so. Yeah. There you go, man. All right.