And The Writer Is...with Ross Golan - Rewind: Jack Antonoff | How to Pick the Artists Who'll Define Your Career

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

Today's guest is a Grammy Producer of the Year who's tied with Babyface for the only three-in-a-row run in the award's history — and whose real story isn't the trophies, the radio, or the run of hits. It's the decision he makes once every few years that almost no other producer at his level makes: which artist he'll spend the next decade building.From frontman of touring indie band Steel Train to one of the most decorated producers of his generation, he built his career against almost every modern industry instinct.This is one of the more honest conversations about what it actually takes to bet a decade of your career on one person. When you're quietly refusing the industry's playbook from inside the room — who do you become?And The Writer Is... Jack Antonoff!In this episode of And The Writer Is, we go deep on:• The importance of finding your people• Why "Album is God" — and what a single actually is• The Sabrina Carpenter origin: a random run-in two weeks after a Bleachers show• "Workaholics aren't disciplined. They're sad." — why he refuses all-nighters• The "Getaway Car" bridge moment Taylor's documentary caught in real time• 5 voices that feel like 100 — the "Please Please Please" vocal stack walkthrough• The artists he's passed on who became stars — and why he doesn't regret it• Why he writes his best on instruments he doesn't understandAnd much more...Hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Every week, we go deep with the most interesting creatives in music.Follow us on socials: @andthewriterisA special thank you to our sponsors for making these conversations possible.Our lead sponsor, NMPA — the National Music Publishers Association. Your support means the world to us.And @splice — the best sample library on the market. Period.CHAPTER TIMESTAMPS0:00 Intro1:10 Ross gave Jack his first co-writing session2:42 The myth and folklore of the LA writing scene8:02 "There's no proof more sessions makes you better"10:08 What gives energy vs. what takes it13:12 Body-of-work first, not single first16:48 "Album is God. Singles are a long hallway to nothing."17:58 The hit-song tour that sold 12 tickets19:17 Sabrina, Chappell, Charli — the only lesson from artist development22:35 Working with artists who already have the vision23:33 Amy asks: how do you make something timeless?25:40 Album tracks are like movie scenes — "Scarface doesn't fit in The Holiday"26:55 How the sonic palette emerges (Mastermind, Tulsa Jesus Freak)31:43 Bleachers — letting the band teeter33:22 "I write my best on what I understand the least"37:47 "Workaholics aren't disciplined. They're sad."40:18 The "Getaway Car" bridge moment Taylor's documentary caught41:28 Keeping it small even when the artist is the biggest in the world44:24 Writing for yourself is how you reach more people48:48 "Geniuses finish things"52:01 Why he protects his circle from outside voices54:37 What Producer of the Year three years in a row actually means56:36 The producers Jack steals from (Jeff Lynne, Sam Dew)61:17 5 voices that feel like 100 — "Please Please Please" stack walkthrough64:10 Dyslexic, Adderall, the VS 840 zip-disk teen years68:13 Authenticity is the only currency that lasts68:57 When their song "March" became a MeToo women's marches anthemCredits:Hosted by Ross GolanProduced by Joe London & Jad SaadEdited by Jad SaadPost-Production VFX by Pratik KarkiWatercolor by Michael White Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What is it that you're doing that keeps these people coming back? You have to find in life, your person, in your art, your people. And if you find those people, everything's possible. You are in the highest level of creativity right now in the history of recorded music. Look at the Sabrina Chapel Charlie thing. What's the fucking lesson? Artist development? The only lesson is find something that you absolutely love and then die for it.

I don't care if it takes 15 years. years to break. Do you feel pressured? There's no historical proof that the more songs you write, the better they get. I think the way you can most write for other people is to just most write for yourself. One trapdoor to stay the fuck away from is... This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers, everyone. Welcome to End the Writer is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's icon is back. Since his last visit with us, he produced and released not songs with, but albums with Lord, and the artist formerly known as the Dixie Chick, St. Vincent, the 1975, and a few up-and-coming artists

like Lana Del Rey and Taylor Swift. He's one producer of the year the last three years in a row, which matches the one and only former, and the writer is guest, Babyface. And it's not like he's neglected his band bleachers either. They just released their beautiful new album A Stranger Desired. All of this in just the past five years. In other words, he hasn't really been up too much, but he's in from out of town. And this writer, producer, artist,

is one of the nicest people in the business, and the writer is Jack Antonov. Wow. I haven't gotten that yet. I like it What, nice is people in the business? You think so. I think so.

Are there people who don't? No, but I just... Yeah, it's just waiting to find that out. I probably told this the last time I was on, but Ross is the first person. The literal, not first in like the emotional way. Like, literal, the first person that let me come into the room with them and work on the song. First, first, first.

Like, I was always in bands. I always, like, wrote and produced with, like, friends. and then there was this like barrier to, you know, I guess the scene or the how things are done out here. I don't know how I would call it, but I felt like I couldn't get in. And then I finally started having some stuff going on. And a publisher was like trying to court me. And I was like, well, I really want to write with people. And they were like, check out this guy.

And Ross is obviously great, but at that time, was already cooking. And they got me in the room with them. This is the first one. And I don't know. I was probably definitely very nervous trying to be more confident than I was. But it was my first experience, yeah, just getting in a room with someone and writing a song with them, which is a very specific experience. It is.

Once you get, I won't say good at it, because as we all know it, it ebbs and flows. but once you get used to it, you forget how bizarre it is. And then you kind of meet people who are just starting to do it and you're reminded. It's such a strange experience. But for me, it's always no matter what happened, it's Ross. That was another crash course for me, too, of being like a non-studio studio.

Yeah, yeah. Like one of these places that like, like the term writing room was never something I understood growing up. Because to this day, like my process is so integrated. you know, it's like when I was a kid, even if I'm in my bedroom, it's like I had all my stuff around and I would write with all the things and all the things, and all the things, so that was interesting to me to, uh, but the, but the LA writer-producer scene at that point in my life was so filled with like myth and folklore because two reasons. A, I wasn't a,

well, three reasons. I wasn't a part of it, so my mind wandered. I wanted to be a part of it, so my mind wandered. But I also think, um, the way. that actually gets done or the way the sausage is made, I wonder if you agree, but is one of the least, like, well-reported on processes? What should people know that isn't? I'm not sure. I guess the problem is, and maybe this is why it's poorly reported on, is whenever I sit down and, you know, and I'm interviewed or talking about process or whatnot, I find that I don't have a good answer for it. And maybe you'll agree with this, because I find that, you'll agree with this, because I find that, you know, when the thing's happening, it's just like, it's just like kind of like feverish and it's happening. And then we all know this feeling of like, oh, there it is. There it is. And you know, and you can go and pick it apart and be like this, these are the things that could put it in a better outfit. But like,

the heart and soul of like getting the song is just sort of like, oh my God, there it is. We were messing around. We were singing stuff at each other and then there the hell it is. But I think the reason my it's poorly reported on is I think there's like these this large spectrum of how music is written and produced and then there's these like sort of like Sven Gali archetypes or like good hang archetypes and it's pretty hard

not to fault the press or anything but it's pretty hard to tell the story without just you know it's like Phil Spector or like hype man and the truth is it's really neither as you know but so as someone before I got into it I was

Like, how is this shit happening? How is this happening? I'd read the Max Martin's stories. I read the Phil Specter, George Martin. You know, like, I knew the stories, but I didn't know how it was happening. Do you now now? Yeah, same way it happened when I was a kid. People were in a room making a one plus one equals a million,

trying to find something bigger themselves. When I look back at how many times I passed on stuff without, I say like I salted the soup. But, like, for sure you've passed on artists that have turned into something. I see it a little differently, though, only because, and I wonder if, like, you feel this way, too. But there's only so much space. And I get really protective of myself of, like, not burning out. I never want to feel, like, normal in the studio or when I'm writing alone or with someone else.

Like, I think it's, like, a magic-based thing. And so, like, I never want to get too, like, looped into the place where I'm not, like, super excited to go in or super filled with ideas. So I've had tons of experiences where someone's like, hey, you want to work with this person? And they go on and do something great. But I see it more like, and maybe deep down you do too, like sort of like part of like a meant to be like, well, maybe if I said yes to this, this and this, I also would have burned myself out. and then lost out on the thing that really like made me feel like made me feel myself. Yeah, there was a project that I was EPing when I,

I quit the job because they were all on so many drugs during the experience. Yeah. And I was really bummed about it because I had to lose a check from not doing it. And during those two, three weeks that I had nothing going to. on I wrote one of the biggest songs I ever had in like a pitch and like like a random session. There's always, I was like that wasn't that, you know, I was really bummed. I lost on like, yeah, but I feel like. Yeah, but I feel like.

I'm like, oh, this turned out to be the best, maybe. Oh, is if your goal is to write your, your best music, you can't lose because you don't know where you, there's no path to find that. And every, every great song has that story. Like, no one's like, we went in. Our goal was to write the best song and we wrote the fucking, like every, it's, like, every, it's. It's actually sort of remarkable how everything is an accident. The story always starts with, like, I got in a car accident that morning, or, like, I got left at the bus stop.

The session got canceled, and we just went to this place, and then we saw this thing, and then we ran to this. And so, like, that randomness, I think, is either designed to drive you fucking crazy, or, on the flip side, it could give you an amazing amount of relief, which is what I like about our work is, like, you know, if we're in the business of, like, build. building stools and selling them and we're trying to like perfect the model and build many of them and build many of them and then sell them and sell them and sell them like that's the kind of thing that you'd have to really like pace yourself or you'd lose your mind because you just want to build

more and more and more and more but there's no there's no historical proof that the more songs you write the better they get there just isn't I mean there's there's obviously like you have to hone your craft but but but but there's no proof that the more sessions you do the better you do there's no proof that there's one place that you need to be living in. You know, the best songs and artists are shooting out of the most random places in the world. And I've tried really hard because I'm neurotic in my own way and have goals and can get buzzy and whatnot. But I've tried really hard to just not lie to myself or even calm myself down, but just continuously

remind myself that like, I'm here barely controlling it, just sort of grabbing it when it comes to me. And there's, it's a, I just like, it's a slot machine and I just have no idea. I could, I could get a call from someone I love so much and be so excited and nothing could come from it. And then I could be in the shower and have the idea that. And yeah, but that shit, as we know people, can drive you fucking crazy. Well, you say that you are protective of you not burning out. You're like, but you look like shit.

But you look like shit. Shit. Like shit. For the record, for people who don't know, he's. just played the Greek two nights in a row. I look like a happy piece of shit right now. I would call myself very satisfied. It's how I get on tour. Like, I'm broken, but I'm happy. How do you, uh, I don't want to get like this from the studio. How do you, how, if I look at your discography from, uh, that Dixie Chick session to now, or from the last time I saw you,

how are you not burning out all the time? It looks like you're only working in the studio. It's not like those are day of sessions. Like, if you're a songwriter and you wrote all those songs. That's one thing. But you're tightening up every single one of these albums. Like, are you do you work six days a week, seven days a week? My work, I work in weird, like, it's very

well, I guess I, I, I, I, I work sort of spread, like, you know, I just did San Francisco, two LA shows, and I'm going to go home. I'll go see you for three days, a few more tour dates. I kind of bounce in and out. Yeah. And then obviously I can work remote too. But I have like a pretty like firm line in my head of like things that give me energy and things that take energy from me.

People love talking about, what's that thing everyone talks about like if social interactions give or take energy, you know, right? I think that and it's and obviously there's nuance to it, but it's quite clear like, you know, think about a session you had that you loved, right? And think about how you felt after. You know that feeling where you're like, you know, having a good session, with somebody, it's not like a good session, you get a good song. It's like, it's like deepens the belief in like collaboration. It deepens the belief in like other relationships in your life. It's very inspiring. And so when you leave it, you know that feeling we're like, I can't wait for tomorrow. I can't wait to get back in. Oh my God. I've found a person on earth I can connect with.

On the flip side, the feeling of a session where you're like, I don't want to be here. I want to die. What, what, what, what, how these people see the world is so opposite to my worldview. kind of makes you want to crawl in the ditch. I'm obviously lucky, but even when I, you know, before I had anything going on, I just, I just felt so like, I know where I'm supposed to be, and it's so obvious to me, if I'm being honest on my gut, this work, these songs, these people make me almost like want to fly out of bed in the morning. And if I don't have that feeling, then it's like, it doesn't even mean that that thing

that's not giving me that feeling is bad or whatever. It's not for me and it'll fuck me up. I'm really, like, very sensitive. You have this ability when here you are wondering, oh, what's it like in the LA scene? You know, granted, that's probably more than 10 years ago now. But, like, wanting to get in the songwriting world and seeing like, oh, what's this like? A lot of that world is one session with this artist, one session. one session with that artist

this writer this producer but it's really unusual to get five days in a row let alone diving deep with an artist and then you dive deep enough with an artist where they keep asking you back one do you feel like do you feel the grass is greener

when you see these people who write you know one song here and one song there or um you know and two what is this that you're doing that keeps these people coming back? Well, there's definitely moments when I'm like the deepest, you know, possible place into an album. And I think to myself, like, wow, I've really designed a pretty complicated life.

So I obviously have those moments. But to me, it's like an overarching question of where you feel yourself, literally. So like, I love writing songs. I love writing my own songs. I love with other people. I love producing. Even if I'm not writing. I love my band, touring.

But there's something about the giant connective tissue for me about all this stuff is I really see things in the context of albums and in the context of time periods. So it's not, it's not an intentional thing, but I usually am just thinking about, you know, my favorite, the worst albums that you can possibly make, which can be a symptom of, of, you know, too much merry-go-round writing is the worst thing. you could do is make an album that sounds like, you know, 10 to 15 different groups of people attempting to get that song. That's not an album. That is a now that's what I call 15 people trying to get that song. And once again, as you know and as I know, when you get, you know,

quote unquote, that song. And when I say that song, you'd call it a hit, you call it the front door a house, whatever it is, the thing that draws in that kicks the 10 open a little bit more. and, you know, is the big hello to more people. It's never how you think you're going to get it. You know, and so I always let that be something that comes later. It's more like I imagine a body of work with someone and then like a house. I've talked about that before. What's the front door?

And then inherently, maybe it's because I'm in a band, when I'm working on something, I think about how it fares in the future. I think about the next thing. But it's just where I'm valuable. Like if someone was like, I'll get those calls where it's like we finish the album, we don't have a single. Like, I'm not, I'm not the guy. And that's not a knock on that guy.

That guy is fucking magic. You know, you know, that person who can come in, I know them. We all know them, you know, that person who can come in and get and see the whole thing and then put it into this, is wild. But it's just about knowing your zone. Yeah, I mean. There's knowing your zone and there's the external part of the music industry that tends to push you, like try to push people around. And, you know, when you've been releasing so many, so much quality music, and not every album has the, now that's, whatever, whatever, that's a great reference.

Now, that's what I call 15 writers and producers going from that song. Yeah, but not every album has, like, a single that, certainly a lot of them don't have singles that go to radio. And still, I like, are, like, are, you know, Norman fucking Rockwell doesn't have, like, radio smashes on it in the way that, but it still was Rolling Stones, like, you know, top 500 album. Like, you know, what, do you have the ability to not conflate your, you know, success commercially versus critically? It's so, step, this town specific, I mean, it's like there's A and our success, which is really, like, a niche. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to dig too deep into history of your favorite artists. They all have the story.

that they were a failure of their label. Or like, you know, it's almost stunning that we still believe some of the myths. And the reason why we still believe the myths is because there's a small group of people that perpetuate the myths, and that's how they... What which myths are you talking about? The myths that album isn't God.

Album is God, period. Always has been. There's no period in time that doesn't prove that. There's no brilliant artist. artist band that's existed for a real period of time and changed things and has a real audience that isn't based on albums. They don't exist. Singles are amazing. I love singles. Singles are pathways to somewhere. Single without a great album is a long hallway that leads to nothing, right? So that's a myth. And it's understandable why some people in the industry perpetuate

that myth. It's very time-consuming, stressful. can be very expensive to make an album. It's very easy to make a single and service it and chuck it against the wall. I always challenge myself and everyone in my community to remind ourselves what are facts or what are concepts that are being sold to us by the people who benefit off those concepts. I've been to band my whole life. I know how touring works. Touring is completely divorced from anything but what the fuck you do on that stage, right? There is a reason why you know, there's that great Robin Thick story at the height of blurred lines. I mean, it's kind of inside baseball, but I think it's inspiring.

Biggest song in the world put up to this show and sold 12 tickets and had to take it down right away. Meanwhile, my band at that time that no one's heard of, you know, we're talking to Steel Train Days or whatever, you know, is doing more tickets than that. Touring is an entirely separate thing that is unfakable. You get a moment, but it's really to live at it. And then all these, you know, it's not a streaming phenomenon of like, like great music getting bigger later. It's been happening forever. I remember that and I also remember, you know, what I'm trying to do.

And I mean, Jesus, it's like how many times think about how long you've been doing it, how many changes in the industry and different concept. Remember when radio was God and everything, and then this is God and this? It's like there's always some person in a system who has a very narrow parameter of what works. And then when you just step outside of it, there's like this giant, beautiful world. And the irony is when that outside stuff comes into the system and everyone's like, you know, saying, oh, you should do it like this. And you're like, oh, you mean just make something from the soul? Right.

Great idea. Yeah, yeah. But those are my favorite A and our people who there's people absolutely love who see. I mean, look at the Sabrina Chapel Charlie thing. Like, what's the fucking lesson? Artist development. Yeah. Brilliant artists.

Three very different and very brilliant artists who for. Decades or longer have had a vision that they've been growing and growing and growing and all of them have hilarious stories of labels and executives not getting it and mishandling it and trying to push it this way and that way. And then you get this amazing explosion like the metaphor of pulling the arrow back. The harder you pull it back, the longer it goes. And everyone wants to chat about it on the business side. And it's like, well, the only thing to the only lesson is find something that you absolutely love. and then die for it. I don't care if it takes 15 years to break.

That's what it is. What's interesting about those three examples is only one of them is with the label that they signed with from the beginning. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That through development,

you know, a lot of artists signed to a label and it's when they signed to a label that they realize who they're not. You know? Yeah. Like a little culpability on the artist, too. is like that it takes a, you know, there's an artist on a label right now that I keep saying to all the A&R people at that label, I'm like, you guys just need to drop him, drop him, so he can now have the career he's supposed to have.

I got off a major. You know, yeah. Bleacher's went from RCA to Dirty Head, and we've had like a giant lights on moment. You know, the untold story is, you know, the untold story is. is, you know, there's making art. And that's everything. There's nothing else that matters. There's making the thing.

There's playing the thing. It's producing. There's all of it. That's the fucking art about you're making it. And the amount that the artist, mostly, but then even the writers, even the producers, all the other people, the amount of work after making the thing to just fucking protect it, to just fucking protect it, if you're in a big system. I mean, I'm in a small system now and it's a huge relief

is I never put out anything I didn't absolutely love or die for, but I used to have to do like man hours, hours and hours of work convincing people that it was their idea to. I mean, the level of high school, as we all know, that goes on behind the scenes is stunning. It's like absolutely stunning. How important is it for the artists you work with to be part of a system knowing how difficult it is to,

you know, when you're an artist, you can control everything, you know. But when you're a producer and a co-writer on an album, there's a little bit of, you know, most of the artists that you work with are assigned to some major label system. Yeah, but they're so independent in the... Within their systems.

Yeah, like... And also, I always think that a good way to consider, you know, I would never work with someone where I'd be worried that if they didn't do it this way, it would be a bummer. So, like, anyone I work with, it's like, I'm so inspired by their vision that it's just sort of like, which way are they going to steer the rocket ship? I don't care.

You know, like, it's so, I don't find myself in those situations if I'm making an album with Lana or like the Sabrina album that I worked on. It's like, I just love all of it so much, the things I'm a part of, the things I'm not a part of, I love her vision, I love all of it. It's like, she's just got it. She's in, and I'm a proud partner there. And that's how I feel with everyone I work with. So I feel with my band, too.

It's just like, we know where we're going. And if it's a little bit this way or a little bit that way, you know, call it going with this song first or the tour goes here or the video looks like this. It's like, it's all good because the general thing is moving one way. Speaking of collaborators on the Sabrina album, Amy Allen would like to ask Jack Antonoff, and the writer is, she would like to She says

Nowadays with so much music Coming out every fucking day What's one thing today You think can still make a song timeless That's Amy's question Yeah I mean she texted it to me I thought it was gonna be more like

What's your fucking problem Why do you have to make fun of Maine so much Um He wants to know what Okay so how you make something timeless Yeah In this era when there's so much music There's I think there's always been a lot

Yeah, there's a ton of music. I think the concept of timeless to me is defined by the artist. And so that is an esoteric magic that just has to happen. Someone expresses their soul, becomes timeless, period. So I can't say how to do it. You know it when you hear it. But I can say that the biggest, I can say one trap door to stay the fuck away from is letting anyone in your ear who's explaining to you what's going on.

or what, you know, first of all, the great irony of being an artist or producer or a writer is how can you care what's going on? When something's going on, it's amazing. Someone's like, this is what's happening. I'm like, congratulations to them. That's wonderful. That has nothing to do with me. Our only goal is to hear or feel something and then express it, turn it into something you can hit play on. And then that's, you know, I don't, I'm not going to sit here and explain how something becomes timeless, but I know how it doesn't.

and it's a little bit like that Kirk Hammett moment and some kind of monster where he was like, well, doesn't not doing a guitar solo date it to know? Do you know this moment? It's like a classic Metallica argument. They're like, we can't do a guitar solo. Is there dated? And he's like, well, it doesn't not doing guitar solo date it.

And I remember watching that with my band and just thinking like the whole argument is a nightmare. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like how can we sit here as like our own planet and a far off solar system and even give a fuck? And that's why I always think it's funny. of people who are at the top of like the tastemaker thing. It's like, but you're still in the tastemaker thing. Like, who cares? All the best stuff just comes from some corner. So timelessness,

final answer, Amy. And I love you, Amy. Timelessness comes from the magic place. But you can't get to the magic place if you even care what the hell is going on. It has to be a totally random expression. When you do these albums that sound cohesive in their own worlds, you know, it's like, we're, I tell people like, okay, if we're working on an album, we're making a movie and each song is a scene in the movie, don't bring scenes, don't bring scenes from another movie into this, in this movie. It won't make sense here. Yeah, like Scarface is a great movie, but it doesn't work in the holiday. Yeah. We're just making, that's so random. And that's like real extreme. but totally makes sense. Because I think a lot of artists are like, oh, wait, even within a song,

they're trying to write the whole album within a song. Like, no, it's just one scene. You don't need to have, you don't have to satisfy everything right now. But when I work on projects that are more extensive, I'll make sometimes like playlists and I'll listen to all kinds of music that might be within a world to be inspired.

What keeps you within, you know, I don't, I don't listen to, you know, camp trails over the country club and listen to Midnights and think they sound alike. Do you know what I mean? Like, do you, is it, but you are the, you know, when it's often just you and the artist in a room, how are you defining that sound versus another sound?

It's always the, the, it's always this like palette that emerges. So those are perfect examples. when we're working on chemtrails, it was like the stories that she was telling and where she was, especially after Norman, and it was this very, like, specific moment for her. It's like this palette started to emerge. And there was like these like kind of like, like a song like Tulsa Jesus freak for me was a really important, like one of the first things. There's a lot of messing around. And then you hear something and you're like, oh, there's that tiny sliver in all of the universe and culture that we want to like dive through because it feels untouched and there's these like they were like punchy but

kind of like grimy rhythmic sounds but then there was acoustics but then there was this like really like distonal low end you know you can start to actually see what the hell it is but it comes from magic and and then completely on the flip side you know that magic I remember certain songs like I remember having that moment with a song called mastermind on midnight where there was this like bubbling art and it was very minimal but then we were doing a lot of vocal production, and then it was kind of like shimmering. And, you know, you just start to get these things where what you feel is, holy shit, that's, that's it.

That's the story of the artist is telling us, the feeling of this moment. You know, even when we're not in the studio and we're hanging out, that's the feeling. I finally fucking hear it. And once you hear it, which you can't plan, you can't say, it's going to be 12 string and this and blah, blah, blah. And then the melitromal is like, that never works. But once you actually just hear it, then you can take a step back and be like, oh, I understand.

I understand why these things and then and then you have at least your starting point. But I, you know, I mean, I get literal in the sense that like, you know, not using the actual same instruments or recording techniques. Compositionally, like this new Bleacher's album sounds, doesn't sound anything like the RCA bleachers album. It's not like this sounds like this sounds like this sounds like. this sounds like yeah i mean this sounds like um you know there's some like see change meets yankee hotel fox trot like i'm in like a world that feels like those are big inspirations to me yeah it feels like it feels like you're in a place like i wanted to hear there for for this and so when you're that that it's all a growth thing it's like the early bleachers i'm very alone and so

So when I'm alone, I can really enjoy the experience of hearing someone try to create the sound of something huge alone. I think there's something lonely and beautiful about it. So like a lot of early bleachers, it's like you can feel me alone wishing I had people around me. And now that I do, and now that the band has grown and grown and grown. And there was a little bit in me of like a fuck you to like a system I was coming from where it's like, you know, y'all are going to think I'm like, you think like you think

like, yeah, like, okay, like I don't stream like so and so and so and so, but look at what the hell is happening on the road. I'm going to turn around and make an album that is an expression of our brotherhood on the road. Yeah. So there is that little chip that went into it. But, but yeah, it's like the characters in your life play such specific roles in the music or the lack of characters. And I even, same thing with producing, it's like relations of chips I've had for a long time, the albums can sound way more like these incredibly lonely times and being lost in one's thoughts, or they could sound like you're in a party, or they could sound like you're at dinner with friends. It's really about capturing almost like the level of loneliness or community,

me or another artist feels at any given time. And that's something that I like to get somewhat literal with, the use of reverb, the use of stacking and, like, you know, for example, like is is one person doing all the backups there's nothing cooler than one person doing all the backups but it is sad we don't know necessarily hear it that way even if it's a big beautiful pop song when you hear one person doing all their stacks somewhere in your soul you realize that there's one vocalist on this song and they have to play all the characters in their life that's a device whether we like it or not doesn't matter if it's the most major key high tempo pop thing and

the second it could be this most depressing song in the world but the second you introduce another voice, the loneliness bubble is popped. Even in the saddest songs, that person is no longer alone. There are two people in my headphones. So these are things that I think about a lot and get a bit obsessively literal with based on how I want people feel when they hear the music. NMPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association?

What do publishers have to do with songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, There is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-published, or a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NMPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress, they go and support the community, they fight DSPs to get you paid more.

That's what they do. They fight for you, and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NMPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use Splice, and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice, but if you don't, you need to start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of. But they take care of their original creators.

In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite. Unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators, Every time you use Splice as AI tool, it triggers a licensing event for those original creators. So there's not a better company that I can think of right now that you can use, where you can use the efficiency of AI and also know that you're taking care of the creators. And that is Splice. Yeah, that's cool. There's definitely like just going to the new Bleacher's album again. Not that that's why you're here.

but there's like, I was thinking that there's some Nashville skyline in the fact that it feels, it feels live. Yeah. And it feels, unlike those other albums that I mentioned, which sound like, you know, studio albums. It is, it is live. Nashville, Skyline vibes feels like you could have just gone and been like, hey, you're playing piano. It's like, I don't play pianos, like, you are now.

And you're playing this, you're like, wait, I don't even, like, that's perfect. Like it just feels like a vibe of friends that just kind of got in a room and played, which I think was speaking of the Not Alone thing, that's what it feels like. So I think you achieved that really well. And you get to a point, and I think we all work in this where it's like, you want to keep yourself really nervous. And it's like, I know what this band can do. I know how good they can play.

And now it makes me want to see like how far we can teeter on the edge, like how loose it can get. You know, when I was young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was all about the band's got to be so tight, tight, tight, tight, tight. And then, like, you get the band to a level of tightness where it's like, well, now we got to deconstruct it. Like, where's, like, the Dexies in us? You know, like, obviously, like, that's when it gets really sort of transcendent and wild is playing with people who have a level of expertise at something and then pushing to an even more uncomfortable place.

That's why I like playing things and having my guys play things they're not necessarily good at. It brings like a fire to the place. Seriously, I write my best on something I understand. least. That's why I rarely write on guitar is because once my fingers touch a guitar, I love playing guitar or anything, but I'm automatically riddled with all of the knowledge of every song I've ever played, every song I've ever covered, every friend I've ever had to be like, oh, it's those chords. And it's like, but you get me off a guitar. I'm just humming in my head. I don't have the baggage of the chord changes. As complicated or as simple as they are, I'm just focused on the song.

Bleachers is one of the few artists that you work with that has a male singer. What is it? Is he hot? He's pretty. Okay. I've heard that. I wouldn't say hot. He's cute.

Really? We could go to this. Before we go to that question, though, I do like that question. You have a personal life during all this stuff. Yeah. How? Me asking you if I'm hot led you to think to yourself that I got married? Yeah, because I feel like you could be when you could be a guy who's on.

Just say it, Ross. Just say it. I just wanted you to be single for this and you're not anymore. I didn't want to be single for. I wanted you to be single for today. Oh, for today. Yeah, for this. I thought you remember this phase of my life and I was like, you dog.

No, I want you to be single for today. For today only. No, I don't. I've spent my whole life trying to make relationships work and I finally found the one that was meant to work. But I've always really wanted to. It's a similarity there. And a lot of the themes we're talking about collaboration, leading a band, these things of, you know, you have to find in life, your person and in your art, your people, work person. But, but, and if you find those people, kind of like what we're talking about of the great sessions, everything's possible.

Everything's possible. You know, like eating better is possible. Like, you're going to get. You know, getting on the travel number, everything's possible. And when you're not, nothing's possible. You're just like never going to get there. So, you know, finding my partner has also in this back and forth made my work infinitely better, beyond more hopeful than I've ever been. Do you want to build a family with children and stuff? With you?

Sure. Let's do it. Because an isolation, you just said, do you want to build a family with children? You, me, Jackie. And, you know, my kids. I just like the, the, maybe you guys isolate the clapper Ross just says, do you want to build a family with children? Do you want to build a family with random children? With children.

Somebody asked me to say that to me the other day. They were like, they're like, I have wanting, they were like, oh, your shoulders sore. They're like, oh, is it from carrying children? I said, well, just mine. You know, it's just like, this weird image. It's just like, ah. Yeah. Just Ross carrying children around.

Like, is there time for you to do that kind of thing? Do you... I have more time than people... I mean, I always... I feel like the only people who really understand me and understand that I'm, like, not that busy, which is why I resent the question from you is people like yourself.

Because you know how... No, I know. You know how people work. You know how people work. And I work hard, but I'm... There's people in this town that are two a day. Right. Fucking Nashville, there's three a day, motherfuckers.

Like, there people are... I'm very focused and I think what people are really reflecting on is that the work is specific, but yeah, sometimes it makes me feel a little bad when people put that on me. I'm like, no, no, no, you should make some other people. I love that. I like that clarity because I think that the archetype is, when you were talking about the extremes, there's the 40 years ago version of a producer and a writer who doesn't know how to define self. And I think one of the realizations I've had recently is, you know, I look at some of these writers, producers, artists who are constantly on the road, constantly in studios, at least what they should promote themselves as.

and I know they have families and I used to think that they showed as workaholics I was like man I wish I had that work ethic and all they're showing is a lack of discipline and a sadness within this workaholism and I don't

I tend to not look at those people as like something I aspire to be even if they may have infinitely more cuts than I ever will have you can see in someone's eyes usually if they have peace in them or if they're... But I also think that like,

it really depends, you know, I remember when I was younger and worked with people who had this like all night spirit to them and it really is whatever gets you going. Like, I think, I think the idea that anyone can work in any way is absurd. I do my best work in the morning. Yeah, same. I feel a clarity.

What time is morning for you? Whenever it is, depends where I am in the world, you know? But just, I would, I define morning as, honestly before I eat there's something happens to my like soul once I like eat something I feel like awake in a way where if I you know go to like noon or one or something and haven't really eaten and I'm just more getting out these like free thoughts um I do a lot of I obviously don't just work in the morning but I'm not someone who finds inspiration at four in the morning fucked up in the studio or even just four in the morning not fucked up at all I've had moments but

all you can do is like yeah like we're sold as you know very few other people um I think it's because there's like a mythology to what we do uh we're sold we're sold so much concept of how we're supposed to be doing it so much and um it's really just extremely personal and I've worked really hard to do it in my way but I do agree that that I find that people's like understanding of it is sort of like, like, the film and TV version of like shooting some heroin, lighting a candle and writing the best song, or like being in the studio

for 96 hours straight. You described like rent. Yeah, but yeah, but no one, I think the reason why we're so poorly represented in the movies is because it's so hard to actually show that moment. There was that... It's also really boring to watch.

It is until... It's so internal. It's so internal. Like the feeling I get when I hear the thing, that sounds like this part of my soul, I don't go like this. Like I just have the feeling and I actually go, honestly, I probably go like,

like that, like I start, then the wheels start turning. The only time, there's that clip that Taylor had in her documentary where she happened to be filming the moment we were writing the bridge of getaway car, and it became something that like a lot of people saw, and I really understand why, of all the clips that have been out there of me in the studio,

and it's because it's the only time that I've ever been a part of something or even really seen, you know, I haven't seen too many examples as in documentary or not, where the actual moment, the actual moment when we're shouting the words at each other and having that outward, not inward moment of realizing what something is she captured. And it made sense to me that like, that became something that, because that's the dream. That's the people, that's, that's the dream is that you're shouting at someone else and you're getting the part in real time. But those are very, very moments, just moments. Let's talk about the Taylor stuff.

There are levels of success, as people describe where she's at right now, it's bigger than Madonna got, you know? It's as big as, at least, you know, Michael Jackson and Madonna and the Beatles and Elvis, and it's so like it's become something just bigger than the artist you met in the beginning. And she was huge then. Being the main co-writer with her for multiple albums now, or at least one of a couple, you know, do you feel pressure to repeat stuff? How are you coping with the fame aspect?

No, I feel just joy about. the world is so insular that I feel just nothing but like utter pride and joy and what, what we've done. And if we, and whenever we do it again, I'm always like thrilled and surprised. But it's also, it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's very hard for me to, sometimes it sounds like bullshit or pandering when I'm like, oh, the room is so small, but it really is. And that's where I am. That's where I am all the time. It's where she is all the time. It's, you know, I mean, the discipline of keeping one's life against all aspects.

Normal is also one of the reasons, you know, why there continues to be a wealth of things to write about. But I really am there. So, like, when I go see the show and stuff like that, and it's, like, the most incredible, transcendent, massive thing. Like, I'm very much have one foot in, like, the room when it's just me and her or me, her and and that's the perspective I come from is just like, oh my God, look at this. The juxtaposition is crazy to me. So I'm pretty locked in that zone. But I know, yeah, it sounds like pandering or whatever to wax on about how simple and normal it is when it's being made.

But it is. And it's really the story of how all the records are made. It's the story of me in the studio. Like there just isn't there's very few people around. there isn't some overblown atmosphere. And so I'm so focused on that. And then even like I draw the same comparison to like even like this weekend or like playing big shows. It's like the juxtaposition of that and then just being with my band who are like the people I like sit next to all day.

It's like so much of your heart and soul is just there. And then the rest is kind of like something that is like an energy flying around. Did any of that make sense, Ross? Yeah. I mean, I think some of it's for you, some of it's for them. You know, it's like. I just. in my...

You know, when you're... When you're with... You end up being with your friends on a boss, your friends in a studio, and you're trying to tell that story. You know there are people listening, potentially. But it... You know, the show is for them.

It's... I think a lot of the writing is for them, too, but that's another conversation. I think the writing is kind of for... Well, I think it's like a backwards... I think the way you can most write for other people is to just most write for yourself. Which is why, you know, if you try to, you know, this is why Taylor's one of the greatest songwriters of all time. She's not,

she's just, she's just like digging deeper and deeper into her story and her soul and her perspective. And it's this belief that people are emotionally brilliant that actually allows you to reach people. It's the belief, you know, the darkest part of this world would be the belief that people aren't brilliant. That's where the least valuable, emotionally valuable songs come from. And then the most valuable songs come from a place where you just believe, oh, I can, I can go to like the part of myself that's so deep that I would barely want to even whisper it, let alone put it in a song and blast it out to the whole world. That's the, that's the through line between all the greats. Her discipline to composition and math in a way is so different

than like Lord, you know, like the way they seem to write. Everyone I've ever worked with is so I don't know if I could ever... Not discipline and like they're not disciplined, but I'm saying like in a sense that like... Well, everyone I work with... I feel the lineage of the Swedes when I hear... When I hear Taylor songs. Oh, I don't really?

Yeah. Oh, it's interesting. Maybe this is just from my experience in the room, but I feel like everyone I work with has like their own like internal clock. Yeah. Where it's like their, their own like rhyming sequences that just like come out in a way that is... Everyone I've ever...

I work with and probably why I have such connection. I feel like they're all like, it's just a little over here. Like it's like, it's a little this way and feeling, just like one's lyrics must be completely specific to their life. I like when one's internal clock of like how they rhyme, how they choose to fuck up the rhyme. Like, you know, is so specific to them that that's why I always sort of get so sad about the idea that there's a way. Interesting. Because just all, you know, how much, how funny is it that there's so many times that people are like dissecting songs. Like one of my least favorite things is like when like a brilliant classical musician dissects a pop song and like explains why it works.

And it's like, oh, is that why? Oh, really? It has nothing to do with the just completely unfathomable magic of a few simple elements coming together to bring something that feels absolutely of someone's soul. why don't you do it um sorry but but but but the as they're in a cover like a really yeah yeah it's like it's like oh cool you know i'm not going to sit here and tell you like how a lawnmower works like like i don't fucking know um but i feel that when i watch a lot of these things which obviously get served to me and i'm just like you know sitting on a tarmac watching the shit about like people breaking down songs they're always telling you that like

like, well, this is weird. Well, this is sort of against the rules. And maybe that's why it worked. And it's like, it's always funny. It's almost like the lessons are right there if you just listen to them. And you could look at past charts. You could look at touring success. You could look at just the stuff that resonates.

You could look at all these things. But the point I'm making is it's always that person's internal instinct that is more valuable than any sort of proven math. Which is why... That takes... This is where you've like now ended up in like the wise seat in your career. No. Yeah.

Hell yeah. Fuck me, really? Yeah, because you wanted the hot seat and you said I was in the cute seat. Now you're in the wise seat. And then you asked me if I wanted to have a family. Wait, when... One of the most infuriating things about... No, no, fuck that.

You're giving me more wise than I am. You have like a peace in your eyes and a calmness. I appreciate that. I'm like a buzzing. Like, you know, fucking... There's no way that you... Like, you in a room, when you've got an artist who comes in who's like, I want to do an album. Like, you need to have somebody who's grounded enough to finish what they started.

And that's like, and that's really hard. A lot of people are buzzing around so much that they can't... There's a neon sign in that room that says genius... Geniuses finish things. Huh. You know, it's like you can... there's so many you're around people who fall into this genius category because they finish the projects they start but you know a lot of artists who come in with pieces of ideas and another and they start working on the next idea

if you aren't the one who's like relax let's finish this idea let's finish this idea we can come back to this idea because this one deserves to be finished. But it needs that person who's helping that artist finish things. And I feel like you... Like, these projects, I think what's so impressive is that you do focus on finishing these projects. And not every artist has that person with them helping them do that, navigating that. That's them. I mean, a lot of...

it's not to say that they like it just helps to have somebody you are not buzzing on to the next thing until you're done well one way i mean i think all i think the genius comes from the work and then i think the only part that can be learned is to block out everything else so it's like i've always known you know i i don't really relate to like not knowing when something's done like it's i have i've always had a gut feeling since i was a kid i was like that's it you know and same thing when it's not done um you can't but But I think that there's, I think that there's, I think that, you know, all artists have this magic in them. And then there's like a protection that has to happen.

And that's, I guess this is a bit like the sad part where I don't like it when people get messed with. And this is why I keep my circle really small because there's so much vulnerability. Right. So like, it doesn't matter how massive an artist is or whatever. when you're creating something, it's a house of cards. And the last thing you need is some fucking person coming in there who's having a bad day or might not realize that they're projecting something that hasn't,

haven't doing anything else, come in and be like, oh, that hi-hat blows. Ooh, like the room will just deflate. And it's like, we'll fix the high hat if it did blow. You know, like we'll get, like these are not the things that matters. We're like much like how a baby isn't totally formed. Like the baby's going to get formed. We're not worried about that.

We're not worried about that. We're worried about creating an environment where the baby can get formed. And I've had too many experiences, which now I will never let happen where you let an energy or a person or a voice into a process that isn't protecting it, almost like a chemical or something. And to me, you know, the artist spirit and myself and the people I work with is so pure that the protection of the process, if you really, just do that. This is why I think great things are made with small groups of people all believing in one thing. Like, you know, like as a writer, I think you are at your best. If someone says, I love your perspective, let's just lock the fuck in. Let's just, let's just, you know, because then, like, it doesn't help the writer or the producer to have that buzzy anxiety of something flying around a million rooms and it doesn't help

I think the artist to have a million opinions it's like the greatest bodies of work are made by like a group of people that all see something the same way and then like Gooney style it's like we're going to fucking go for it together and the more you can have that all the all the

things that I've ever felt were successful and loved came from like a group of people who just like we believe in there's so much nothing else matters and so we like walk together and yeah I've had too many things when I was younger. And I've learned the lesson just, you know, by playing things or showing someone where because of their experience, they need to, and it's not for everyone. Nothing's for everyone.

Go back to the question about why is it, you know, adding to that list, Florence and the Machine, these women feel comfortable opening up around you and you seem to feel confident around these women, is that by what in your life created, you know, I don't know that we can curate our discography. I have no good answer. I get this question all the time. I have no good answer for it. And I don't, I mean, I work with plenty of men also. They're obviously, but I don't know, I have no good answer. And every time I get it in a totally non-combative way, I'm always like, I think this is for someone else to figure out because I don't, I'm not, I'm not, I don't, I don't choose the things I work on ever.

They kind of happen. You know, like every great relationship I've had has literally happened. Like met someone randomly. A conversation leads to a thing. Like even the newest relationship I've had that has meant so much to me with Sabrina. It's like I've been a fan of her. It was forever. I was playing a bleacher show.

I literally saw her in their eyes. I was like, oh man, Sabrina's here. And then two weeks later, I randomly run into her at this thing where we had a mutual friend at and that led to a conversation which led to eventually like sitting down and talking about music like it's so the randomness to it

is what I think allows me to function fully on gut yeah but but I don't know I don't know the answer to that you've won producer of the year the last three years

and you know um Yeah, a lot of these things are out of our control, how songs, when songs come out, albums come out, how they're received. It's even out of my control of my own brand sometimes. Like I feel like it's so. Like even within like bleachers. Even within my, yeah, like I'll finish your record and I'll be like, okay, this is it, this is what I want to put it. And then things will happen and vinyl pressing plants or this or that or touring schedules.

Like, it's so, what we do is so fucking volatile in a cool way. but there is volatility. You're now in, you know, I'll say it, you don't have to say it, but like you're a future

songwriter, Hall of Famer. You are in the, you know, you are in the, just the highest level of creativity right now in the history of recorded music.

But who's my first call right? Hey. Who let me in the room? Who let me in the room and it was sweet to me, and I will never say the name, but I had one other session that weekend after you, and it was different. And it would have broken my spirit if you didn't open the door for me.

I appreciate that. Sorry to cut you off. No, that means a lot. That means a lot. How do you... When, you know, we talked about all these people who are on extremes of what the archetype is, of a songwriter producer.

And you don't have to compare to babyface. You guys don't write the same. You don't create the same kind of music. But in this world where there's so much music being released, are there producers that you look to that inspire you currently? Oh, yeah, very much. Like who? Soundwave is one of my all-time favorite producers.

I get lucky enough to work with it. him. I'm endlessly inspired by him. Sam Doe is probably my favorite songwriter of all time and singer. I get pretty like laser focused. I get like, you know, but, but I love, I think a lot about, I know this is, someone has been around longer, but I think a lot about Jeff Lynn in the sense that I find so much of his work with band music and pop music. music, live instrumentation, synthetic instruments, the way he brings them all together, like odd and subversive, like things like smashing together in this glorious way. I'm inspired by his dedication to his production work and his band.

There's not a lot of people that I feel that sort of connection with. I love a lot of more of the like wooden, organic Nashville producers. But yeah, when you say who's like my favorite current producer, right away think it sounds like, He just has this, in his words, he says he likes to like, I forget his quote perfectly, but he likes to like pull the petals off of the flower a little bit. And one time I heard him say that. And then now I, when I work with him, I hear that where it's like he'll, you know, take the thing that's perfectly great and go.

And yeah, I guess what it is. I just, I hear that perspective he has in it. endlessly inspired by it. And Sam Doe as a songwriter, I feel like, I don't know if he would feel this way, but I never read a lyric he wrote that didn't feel like a little beam of light out of someone's soul. It's almost like an incapability of being anything but just the absolute deepest. One of the things that's amazing about your production that's also infuriating is the thought of like you listen to it and you're like, oh, I could do that because there's not the wall of sound when you're talking about the Phil Specter stuff. It's like the Jeff Lynn thing.

It's like, oh, I could, I mean, I can do free falling. Like, for sure I can write that song. You know? It's like I listen to like midnight. I'm like, oh, you know, like this is, I mean, amongst, obviously, there's a lot of stuff. But, you know, this ability to make every choice count. Well, I, that is like, that is so, that is so amazing to be able to have the confidence to not be like, I'm going to throw everything at this production and then make it so you can't tell what instrument is where.

like that is not that is that is that is not the music you're doing you're doing music where it's like this synth I want you to focus on this synth right now I want to hear this I want you to feel this kick but I want you to focus on this synth while there's a counter melody here it's like it's so thorough in its simplicity and that's what makes a lot of what you do so genius and unique to you that that to me is just I that's that's just that's just George Martin thinking, which I grew up on listening to endless Beatles music. And maybe it's like, maybe it's the way they like paint with such a big brush with the panning where they show you that so specifically in those recordings. But like, I just love Jeff Lynn, obviously, Patty. It's a

similar thing where there's, I, it's actually something that I've become almost like militant about because everyone is on this like quest for loudness, which I think is, which I think is, which I think is, the most inside baseball thing ever. I have never heard one person in the world be like, I love this new album, but it's not as loud as this album. You know, because you know what someone does is they turn it up. And then they move on with their fucking life. You know, the way that people hear music and headphones and cars

in their house is they put it on and then they adjust it to their liking. And then they never fucking think about a bunch of us sitting around, taking a precious, precious thing and then shitting on it just to make sure it hits as hard as possible. That's really funny. Yeah, I mean, the irony of the time, I guess, well, so it's something I've always loved

is space for the listener, right? I just did a thing where I was walking through the Prodigal session, please, please, please, which is a perfect example. I was thinking a lot about ELO and ABA, these vocal stacks in your head that are like beams of like, you know, like God's rays shooting down from heaven. You know, like they sound like a hundred vocal stacks, right? But they're not. You know, that song, for example, is a lead

and two doubled harmonies. That's five. And then there's three really, really, really quiet, you know, mirrors of the lead that are really just sort of me using actual vocals as reverbs and delays instead of plugging them, of setting them off and running into things. So essentially, it's not this many, but at the most, it's four, five, six, it's eight. But it really is more like five, okay? That's the entire chorus stack. And when I was going through the session, I was talking about how the impression of bigness, and this is the same thing, this goes for writing very much too.

The impression of bigness is so much more powerful than bigness. If something is a fact, there is no longer any space for the listener, right? If something is a fact, then no one needs to know about it. It's just a floating fact, like a million facts, right? We think about our favorite recordings and our favorite songs, and very often we don't remember that we're a character in that. We don't need to remember that because it's our life. And when making something, if you push it to the max,

you are literally creating no space for people. Like, no space for people. And if you want to use that as an aesthetic tool, that's really cool. but yeah like if I'm putting things here and zeroing things out and and using things in like minimal ways just to I also like you know if there's a synth line here I want you to focus on I imagine like the person staring at it and then if like the kick starts to you know take control here I imagine the person like in it and then if like the vocal spread out I imagine the person going like that and I always for me I'm not trying to sell this as kind of like hot takerasing but for me it's it's really important to imagine the listener as like a human being who's like in the sonic space with me, not looking at the sonic space. Yeah. Do you write and mix with visuals?

Like actually, I don't. I work with people who do sometimes. I mean when the Olympics were going on, I'd play that a little bit. But I don't. I don't have a TV in the studio. But I work in studios that sometimes do.

I'm always fascinating with those people who like to have a visual white noise. No, I'm a little like, um, I'm a little like very locked into the instrument or the screen. Do you have OCD? I think so. Yeah. I don't know. I think I got like a little cocktail things going on that if I grew up in a different time

would have been. I mean, I was one of those kids. Like I performed very poorly in school. So like I was put on those kind of drugs. Yeah. And then I performed even worse, but my music got better. Because I got like really like. I'm dyslexic and I wasn't diagnosed as dyslexic when I was younger because you wouldn't

be, diagnosed as dyslexic when we were younger. And the reason why I read intros slowly and why I exaggerate stuff is because I struggle reading it. Oh, I have a very hard time reading. So, like, it was like a compensate, the way I compensated. Oh, yeah, more of the same generation where it was like, if you didn't like devour books, you were a fucking moron.

And I really have a very, I can read, but I really don't read in a way that, uh, other people who enjoy reading books do it. My mind wanders. But yeah, when I was diagnosed with something, you know, I was just sort of like, they put me on Adderall when I was younger. And like I said, my grades got worse, but then I would go home.

And I was like, I was like basically a 13 year old on Coke. I was like, and I made so much music. And maybe it really helped because I had like a VS 840, which was a recording system on, not floppy disc, but it was a harder to. Yeah, yeah, whatever. ADAD. No, it wasn't ADDET.

It was a zip disk. Ah, yeah. Zip disk, which is no longer. Zip disk. Zip disc. It's a thing no one will ever know about in the future. But I would just come and I was going and like, and I learned so much from, you know, whatever like, you know, government substance they had me on. I'm going to name five things.

You're going to say what comes off the top of your head. Okay. And then I'm going to say bye. you can get to your next interview. But five, oh, that's exciting. Fire. I think it's just carbon. In oxide.

Okay. Five things. Danger. Albums. God. God, Ross. Hot. Singles.

Front door. Taylor Swift. The best there is. Electric Ladyland. The best there is. Margaret The best there is Well thanks for coming back

Hold on but hold on Yeah okay let me just really quick okay One knots further on this game Yeah and if anything bad happens you can cut it That's fine So now I don't know if you ever play this My friend calls it first mouth Not even words

Whatever like just open whatever comes out Ready? Ready? Eyes Blada Exactly anything ready Beard Rearred Rent

Red. Red. Okay. Ready? House. Big. Face. Noses. But even sooner. Oh. Okay. Just like anything. I'm going to put this down.

Are you ready? Let's play this for a minute. Hold on. Okay. Anything. Anything. Okay. Shoes. Gold. Interesting, right? Ross. Tall. Why'd I say that? I want to take the kind of take it back? That's the ending. No, no. That's beautiful. I mean, you can cut it. show. You know, it's weird? My, like, my son is like in the 99th percentile in height, and it's

not from my side. Maybe I just think I look at him, and I think he looks just like I did when I was three. But he's really tall. The game worked. It brought us to a beautiful place of you seeing sort of what you wish to see yourself and your son. Well, okay, here's a beautiful thing. It's like, I talk about aging gracefully a lot, and I think when people think of that, they think about the elders in the business. And I think, think of that aging gracefully as the youth in the business who should look at people who are surviving for a long time and one of the things we first sat down and started talking before the the cameras were rolling was how one thing will keep you in this business and that's authenticity

yeah as we're talking about it's the only currency and we've known each other now long enough. And every time I see you, I get excited. I mean, I know we talked about it in that last episode too. But like, I've seen you out in the wild. We've, we text every once in a while. And I think it's because from the outset, it's like, ah, that person's authentic.

We made an authentic song once. Totally. And, you know, we made, the second song we made, was really important in a time when March March came out and then all of a sudden the Me Too movement happened and that song was used during

women's marches in DC like Yeah no Natalie Natalie knew what you wanted to do in that moment That's incredible You know that's incredible To be part of these things

I've never seen you out in the world And you pretended like you didn't know me And that means a lot to me Seriously people are weird out there I appreciate you I'm excited to do this when you win the next three years in a row? All right, Ross.

Do you think by then you might call me hot and my still going to be cute to you? Final, final question. Take it however you want. Okay, sure. Do you want to have a family with kids? I could be asking that question. Yeah.

It could be someone in the past. I was asking you. You know what? I want to... Be with me. Be with you. And I want to make kids with you. I don't know how that happens.

Last one, you ready? We can make music kids. Ready? Ready? Ready? Yeah, yeah. Hand. Plants. Nice.