Andrew Schulz's Flagrant with Akaash Singh - Cody Rhodes on Roman Reigns “Beef”, Finishing Fathers Legacy, & Vince McMahon Story

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

yerrrr WWE CHAMP Cody Rhodes came to Flagrant studios to show off the belt, talk to us about this insane Vince McMahon documentary, help break down some wrestling beef for us and tell us his insane rise, fall and story within the world of professional wrestling. INDULGE 00:00 Intro 00:57 Vince Doc is truly incredible + Rep it properly 3:33 Cody is THE White Meat Baby Face  6:48 Finishing The Story + Being a Nepobaby 9:31 Dusty Rhodes + Hall of Fame Speech 12:02 Start in WWE, highs and lows + felt locked in 14:24 Little battles, Hated being Stardust + Work on your craft 19:29 Dustin liked Goldust, Father proud too 22:42 Leaving WWE, burn. the boats + huge risk 26:12 Living check to check + Brandi had his back 27:58 Posting “The List” + Seeing his impact 33:50 Bullet Club + Meltzer’s tweet “I’ll take that bet” 41:00 All-In mania + Things that went wrong  46:12 Tony Khan connect + AEW being created 52:57 Worst experience as Indie + ”dead or in jail” 57:30 How much was Cody making? 59:32 What is the Cody Lie? 1:02:47 Why shake the cage again? 1:04:25 Vince’s offer + Cody owning his IP 1:10:02 1 match + Why not challenge for title on AEW? 1:14:14 Seth Rollins + nerve-wracking return 1:16:15 Need guidance on being Face v Heel 1:24:15 The Pec injury 1:29:29 Pure enjoyment, the “f word” + 100% real 1:34:43 Focus group every night + Triple H calling the play for 39 1:38:37 Brock Lesnar’s rub + unbelievable professional 1:41:18 The Rock’s return + being heartbroken 1:44:36 We want Cody + Rock becoming The Final Boss 1:49:06 Not the best of friends with The Rock 1:51:07 Seth Rollins is the man 1:57:02 “Finish The Story” + Real moments 2:02:58 “Thank you for the house” + Roman is incredible 2:04:14 How hard is this the schedule? 2:05:05 Behind the scenes tension + We need the tan 2:08:30 We need attachment + find your thing 2:11:28 Recruitment, the It factor + Mega Man moves 2:16:32 How to work the crowd 2:18:55 Learning your opponent + speaking Carnie  2:21:11 Not trying to crack up + Modern WWE 2:27:59 Emulating sports now + Biggest pops 2:31:46 Why does a character plateau? 2:34:25 How long can Cody go on for? 2:38:27 Honoring Dusty Rhodes with mom 2:42:01 Cody’s daughter changed EVERYTHING Pick up your copy of WWE 2K24: https://wwe.2k.com/2k24/buy/

One of the most magical things I've ever seen is the Undertaker showing up to chokeslam the Rock. In the moment, I'm laying in the corner, so I see this man roll in the ring like a wild animal. But then, no one sees this. He looked over at me and just went... And as soon as he winked, I kid you not, the lights went out. And he escaped. And I thought like, he's magical, you know? Did anything go wrong? Everything. Is it true that Vince flies to your house to pitch you on coming to WWE? He scribbled on a piece of paper the amount of money

the contract would be for and just slid it across. Well, was it? 15 times more than what I had been making. I always say it's a peck well spent. I kept my jacket on the whole day. And I remember Michael Hayes, he asked to see it. I started unzipping my jacket a little bit and he goes no no save it Did you feel like you were spearheading it or do you feel like there was other?

Today we are joined by the motherfucking champ man, Cody the motherfucking champ, man. Cody Rose is in the building. Wow, yes, yes. Okay, thank you. As I was saying to you before the pod, we are guys that were very much wrestling casuals, okay? In my younger life, obviously there are certain waves that you couldn't escape it, but it wasn't,

like I grew up here in the city, it wasn't like I felt ostracized if I wasn't completely locked in. Vince Doc comes out, it's like mind blowing. It's one of the most amazing things that I've seen on TV. Like it truly is incredible. I feel like left out. I feel like I missed 20 years of reflection of American culture through wrestling.

And I think it really portrays wrestling as incredibly high brow. And a lot of times the people that don't watch it, I think think it's low brow. The people that do watch it, understand it for the story and this reflection of culture. And I think the doc smashed them together. I love that you refer to as high brow. Okay.

I have, because in terms of pro wrestling, sports entertainment, however you look at it, whichever generation you popped in, if you were a fan, if you weren't a fan, there is a reason that I wear a suit everywhere I go. There is a reason I try to represent wrestling at the highest level. It's because having my dad in it,

that was a unique conversation as a kid with, hey, what does your dad do? Or when you meet their parents, what does your dad do? And my dad told me, I feel bad even when he told me this, even at a young age, I thought, no way. But he told me, he goes, hey, if you want to tell people I'm a salesman, that's okay. And I thought like, no, no.

Oh, because he thought you might be embarrassed? Well, just people that judge him. People that judge, like not everyone says high brow. So when I try to engage with people or meet people or even the classic on a flight what do you do for a living i want to make sure they leave and they're not thinking like it's not the best example but they're not thinking macho madness all the time like i'm not sitting not sitting there snapping into sling gyms like that's all awesome and wonderful and it was was for the time amazing, one of the greater performers ever.

But I want them to understand that it is a very large business. If it makes you feel any better, you know what magic made me realize? That was when I saw your WrestleMania going crazy on Twitter. I started watching the last five minutes of it. My brother broke down the whole story.

My brother's a big wrestling fan. And I was like, oh, this is some of the greatest storytelling I've ever heard of. Yes. Like years. Yeah, I wanna get into some of the greatest storytelling I've ever heard of, period. Like, years. Yeah, I wanna get into your whole full story, because that's kind of insane, how it's culminated.

But there is one thing that I wanna fast forward and ask you about. There's this term that we learn when we're watching the doc, and everybody probably already knows this, so a lot of the parlance I'm gonna use is gonna seem pedestrian to you, but to us, we'll learn it about. It's quite all right.

So, babyface, right? Yes. Are you the first unanimously supported babyface since Hulk Hogan? I'm knocking on, I think that's wood. I've been very lucky. But can you maybe even describe what that means to you? Babyface, I mean, babyface is a good guy.

Babyface is a good guy, heel is a a good guy. Heal is a bad guy. Those two terms are usually used pretty correctly. Yeah. Some of the other terms you'll feel that it's always good being a casual fan because some of the most hardcore fans they'll start throwing these terms around and they're, no, that's not the use of it.

We don't talk that way. But Babyface, a good guy, I've been very lucky that something about my return set in with all the different demographics in a way where there was not, there's usually a good chunk of fans who rally against the Babyface as well. Well, I like the bad guys. Something happened and I'll give him the first person who really let me in on it, that this is wild, there's no one going against this, this is wild, was Hall of Famer Mr. Paul Heyman, who without giving me credit in a moment,

gave me a lot of credit, he said, you've opened the door for traditional baby faces to come back. Yeah, that's, I was apparently, yeah, post Stone Cold or whatever, I mean he was always like an edgy good guy. Stone Cold even, it was the anti-hero. And the more I kind of like try to watch

and analyze wrestling, I'm like, wrestling is this reflection of whatever Americans are rebelling against. So the Hogan area is maybe like, this is the rebellion against the guy who wears the suit and does everything proper and has the family and the dog in the yard and then Hogan's like, fuck that, I do whatever I want.

Exciting. Then once you have that guy as the good guy, the rebellion is the guy who doesn't really give a fuck. And you see this anti-heroes pop in the stone cold. But you're pure babyface. That's the term we use is white meat baby face. And by the time this comes out, I don't know if that will... It's very risky.

I would never be mad if I started to hear the boos. Things would have to change a little bit. You'd have to pivot. But my model in the industry and a guy I drove around for a few years, God bless him, one of the best locker room leaders the company ever had was John Cena. John is the virtuous, the goodest of good, but he had a really unique thing with the audience

where half the people were there to see him win, and the other half were there to see him lose, and that still means they're all here for John. They didn't realize it at the time, because he told me once, he goes, if they're chanting, let's go Cena, Cena sucks, well, I feel't realize it at the time because he told me once he goes if they're chanting Let's go see in a scene of sucks. Well, I feel bad for the other guy in the ring with me Yeah, and then these five insane is you're right

Then they found moments where like CM Punk and him would rustling each other and they started chanting for CM Punk And that's where you started realize. Okay guys are starting to click. They're starting to get to his level Yeah, no, the baby face is a wild thing. But again tonight, I'm at Barclays I could walk out there and it could all end. It could all end. So I don't take it for granted. What do you think makes you, what do you think, was it anything you did intentionally? Was it just something that happened

wrestling with the Peck or whatever? What do you think it was that really flipped everyone? The story, you know, we went into WrestleMania 40, we said we gotta finish the story. Everything about what I have done and my return to WWE and where I went and all of that is real. So when our industry is at its best, it's when you're just reflecting real.

And that's not always easy if you're playing like an astronaut or a really crazy out there character or Stardust for example. But when you are telling them and telling them willing in existence, first promo I did returning to WWE was on raw and no one looked at it. Not a single writer. Uh, nobody asked. They had a full trust in what I was going to say. And here's the time police at this time.

And I just wanted to will it into existence. Here's the story. My dad held this up in the garden in the late seventies. Then due to the nature of pro wrestling, he didn't get to leave with the title. And at eight years old, you don't know the difference between what's real, what isn't real. I just looked at it and I wanted it. I wanted it for him and just told him that story. And I think that's the thing that maybe people identify with is that it's real. Because so many things go against traditional babyface. Like wearing a suit and tie is not babyface. That's Ric Flair, that's flaunting your wealth, all that. But none of it's mattered at this point.

And there's always people like, they're gonna start booing him soon, they're gonna start booing him soon. At this point, you've been saying it for three years. Like, of course you're right now, you know? I feel like what is white meat babyface is earning your spot. Sure.

And everything about your name should show you didn't earn, you're a nepo baby. I'm a nepo baby. You did all these like. That's right, that's right. Anybody else a nepo baby? Or no, everyone's in the game on their own? I mean, we're all born in America

in the greatest time of the empire, so we've got a couple advantages. Yeah, it helps. But, but. Is there not one nepo hire in the whole whole in the whole operation? Not one? Not a brother or cousin? No, there's a lot of cronyism. Well, I will say it's all crony. It's all crony. All friends. Yeah. None of it merit. If you bring in a family member, I bet you they do really well. Yeah. I believe in the Nepo babies. Oh, I can't wait to Nepo my daughter into whatever. Yes. But

my point is, I think this is at least, again, outside casual perspective, but I think the idea was you really earned it, and I think people are looking at their lives and maybe they're not feeling like they have the opportunity to do certain things, and you just kind of want to see somebody who deserves it get the shot once. And I think they can root for that. But before we get into that, I want to go to the beginning. Because this is, okay, I watched your father's Hall of Fame induction speech. Oh, gosh.

Okay? You come out, I think I became a Cody crybaby in that moment. Yeah, that was my first time on camera for the company. I worked for him at the time. I don't know if you guys have seen this, but it's unbelievable. So this's my first time on camera for the company. I worked for him at the time. I don't know if you guys see this, but it's unbelievable. So this is your first time on camera. Do you have aspirations of getting in the business when you go up there? Yeah.

Okay, so you're going up there. So I'm already working for WWE at the time. But nobody else knows? Nobody, I've been in developmental. I just, yeah. Ah, great, great, great, great. Yeah. So this is the introduction of the next generation,

obviously your brother, but the last, I guess, generation of Rhodes in the business. And you do this amazing, like I got a little emotional at the end of it. He'd be a Hall of Fame father if there was a- Man, he would, yeah. So people look at that and they always ask, like gosh, bring that.

You know, if you have these speaking times where you do something, whether it's a promo, an interview and they're like, hey, bring that. Sometimes you can't bring that because I wasn't talking about anything artificial. Yeah, that's how you really feel. This is my father. This is an easy one, guys.

You know, this is real. Like there are plenty of times we're talking about something that's like very fabricated and we're creating a narrative. That one was as simple as could be. Set the bar very high, because I really worked on it. I wanted, I was gonna be in front of

some of my favorite wrestlers, some of my peers, my bosses. I really worked on it. And my brother, I hadn't seen him in quite some time. But he know what you were gonna say? No. Because he felt like really touched when you gave him props first. Oh yeah.

I always try to impress Dustin with my professionalism and I only give him a little, the best thing to do is give him a little hint. I might say this, this might happen. Don't give him the full deal, you know? Yeah, that was a really significant moment. That moment though also caused a little bit of an issue. I wasn't ready to come up yet. Wasn't good. I had like, the body wasn't there yet. I didn't have... But the audience wanted it, so you've got to give them what they want.

And the downfall being a nepo baby. Like, oh, this is easy. He bring him out. He was with his dad. And it's the whole, that's the downfall. The door is wide open. The money is right there. Some others are struggling for it.

But then the idea is like, well, in some people's eyes, your dad's a Mount Rushmore guy. Good luck. And at that point, I wasn't ready at all. But I'm so thankful I came up when I did. Because I literally grew up in front of the audience. That might be another reason why they took to everything. I grew up in front of them. OK.

So you start. You're doing pretty good in W.A. but not like superstardom. I wouldn't even say I'm doing pretty good. Don't you win the Intercontinental? So yeah, along the way I had, so what I'll call them is small bones. And I feel like anyone in entertainment gets this, like the opportunities, you want the biggest opportunity, you want this, you want that, your dreams are what they are, but at the time it was little bones.

Hey, here's the Intercontinental Championship, which by no means is a little bone, but it wasn't something at the time they were really featuring or spotlighting. Gunther recently had it and it was such a bigger deal there. But anyways, it was little moments like that, that they'd kind of fill your gas tank up. And then it was highs and lows, man. Highs and lows wrestling, especially if they've not, and I don't want to say they, but if a company, like any company in entertainment,

like any show that they're involved in, you have to pick who's your number one. Who's your number two? Like who, who's number one on the call sheet? Who are we investing in? It still is a show. Who was number one at the time? Gosh, Intercontinental Championship. No, oh yeah, yeah, during-

I'd say, I'd say John still was. John's number one. John's the guy. And then everything trick. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'd say I'd say John's still was John's number one John's the guy and then everything trickles down from that. Yeah, and and yeah So it was it was these moments like that that validated me and made me feel good But at a certain point after that, I realized I was very much blocked in they didn't see me growing I mean I was a child I was 20 years old when I went to OVW to be in developmental. Couldn't order a drink. Like 20 years old.

Didn't know anything about anything. And my dad didn't train me either. Didn't wanna train me. So this was me just doing it with everyone assuming I knew what I was doing. But yeah. Why didn't he wanna train you? He was really good about, hey, you wanna do this?

Great, I want you to be the best. And he was confident that I could do well, but he didn't want to touch it because he felt if he did anything, he even left, he was on the writing team at the time for SmackDown, he left the writing team before I got called up because he actually went to Full Sail or Lando

and started that off. He thought it would be against me, if he spoke out in any way like, well, Cody should do this. conflict of interest conflict of interest for sure And there are some dads I've seen it work both ways who are so in on their kids So in it works just as well. Yeah, but our strategy worked the same it did that was the best He hadn't he never had to push for me. He never had to be in an awkward conversation anything like that He let me just do it. Okay, So what are they feeding you storylines and then what is the process and this during like the harder time?

Yeah, they what is the process when you get a storyline that you don't fuck with at all Well, it's like I referred him as the little battles again. It's not it's not our sandbox So who's ever promoting booking whoever it, like, right now Triple H is in charge of the creative. I love that, because most of the things that Triple H says, yes, great, I will run that play. All you can do in that position is say, hey, I don't love this, what about this? You always should have an alternative, too.

That's something that when you're younger, you don't realize. You can't just say no. Can't just say this sucks. Hey, I don't love this, but what about this? How do you manage up? How do you influence your own storylines? And what I tell you about the little battles every day is you can only, most of them you won't win,

but you'll feel much better going home if you at least fought the little battle. If you said, hey, I don't wanna say this, and then it becomes a, hey, we really need you to say this. All right, well, at least said it. Versus letting it all bottle up Oh, I hate everybody and you're just all that angst and all that because that happened to me during Stardust during the younger run I wasn't speaking up. So they change your character to Stardust so you and your brother

Yeah can kind of be this units and it's awful man. Yeah, awful and it actually was okay Like crowds were kind of fun with it. We won the tag titles. There's some significant moments, but it wasn't. For you, it just wasn't that fun. God, man. It was just so... It's like if the Williams sisters only got to play doubles. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, that's right. I think at the time, I learned this from when I went away, is absolutely some of the

behind-the-scenes aspects out of my control weren't my fault. And this was something I had been tasked to do. And I did give it my 110 percent. However, I found that a lot of it was on was on me. A lot of it. So wrestling is the suspension of disbelief and it's entertainment. There's you know, we have writers, we have our show, whatever it may be. However, it's a lot more fair than people think. If you

put yourself in the best of shape, if you invest in your gimmick or your character, if you work on your promos, if you are the go-getter who goes and, you know, especially in this era of social media, if you go out and you create a little empire or you work with the digital teams, again, small bones, if you just take advantage of all that, somebody sees it eventually, and that's where things can pick up for you, and I wasn't doing all that. There's certainly parts of it I can say,

this was just a bad idea, guys, because the original Stardust also had a hat. I'd only say hat, it's supposed to be a mask, but it looked like a hat. And it's like the original Electro from your 90s Spider-Man run. But it also had the, like, basically, I don't know what you'd call it. It had the look of a condom that had just been yanked on your head. And I went and I showed it to Creative at the time. And I remember Ash showing, I was like, I can't wear this.

That's okay, no problem. This was the part where my heart broke is I had long hair at the time or longer. I didn't have a shaved head and I never wanted to have a shaved head. And gosh, they were like, well, no mask but cut your hair like your brother. And at that point, that heart broke.

I remember sitting there in that chair and just like cutting my hair and no idea what I was getting into. It was Cleveland, which used to be the Quicken Loans Arena, but that arena, poor thing, I've had some great moments in it since, but when I walk in there, it's just a dark feeling. Tour announcement, first of all, New York City,

thank you so much, I love you. That was absolutely incredible. We got kicked out of that shitty Brooklyn theater, we stepped it up, went bigger, we went better, and we blasted through four shows in an hour. Unbelievable. Thank you guys so much. Y'all held me down.

I cannot wait to go film a special there. I'm very, very excited. I'm glad that you all are all gonna be there. Anybody who could not be there that day, we're gonna have more shows eventually in New York City. We're gonna have more shows. We gotta lock in and focus on these right now. The rest of the tour, these are the shows that we have left.

We added a second show in Reno, San Jose, both shows are sold out, Portland sold out, and then Honolulu, Hawaii, the Blidesdale Arena, that's the final show of the tour. It's kind of crazy. It's really almost wrapped up. I can't believe it. But thank you guys so much. TheAndrewScholes.com. If you wanna get any of the tickets

to those remaining shows. I appreciate y'all so much. See you soon, peace. Also guys, quick show announcement. November 1st and 2nd, Lexington, Kentucky. That might be the home of the Klan or maybe that's Louisville. Either way, I would love for you guys to all show up.

Let's talk things out. Let's see what our differences are. Maybe we can make amends. November 22nd and 23rd, Rochester, New York, December 4th. Announcing this right now I'm coming to Long Island. I've never headlined in Long Island. I am mostly scared of you guys but now that we interviewed Donald Trump I feel like you're gonna love me. I'm one of the good ones. So I will be at Governors in Levittown. Come through all those dates and more at AkashSingh.com. Also we're

still doing our thing on fan bases, dropping content there, so check that out as well. Now let's get back to the show. Did your brother like doing the Gold Dust character? It really depends on the day you ask him. I know he's extremely proud of it, extremely, especially during the androgynous run of the late 90s and him and Rowdy Piper going into WrestleMania 12.

He got that, WrestleMania 12. So here was a moment that I, again, I'm in middle school at the time that Goldust comes out. So there's a lot of kids. Yeah, we're about the same age. Attitude Era is extremely popular. So now all these kids who didn't watch wrestling

with me in elementary school wanna ask questions. I'm like, fuck. Well, I don't have a lot of answers on Gold Dust. And at the time, him and my dad. A lot of words you can't say now. Right, right, well, like, him and my dad weren't speaking. And one of the cooler moments where I realized no matter how bombastic and ridiculous and out there

the Gold Dust character was, I watched that Roddy Piper match at WrestleMania 12 and how much it was a thread throughout the show. It was one of the bigger stories of WrestleMania 12. And my dad, who hasn't talked to Dustin at that point three or four years, I could see him just smiling ear to ear. And he was so happy that he got that moment and he had went out and did it on his own. He wasn't Dustin Rhodes, he was Goldust.

And it's a very unique character. It's so funny that I went to a comedy show in LA a few years ago and they were talking about if Goldust came out today, how he wouldn't be a bad guy at all. For example, the guy's doing this Goldust thing, he's like, I'm Goldust and I'm going to kiss this man. And They had a plan, the crowd stand up, go, that's totally cool, man. We love it, we love it. He's like, no, no, but it's gonna get me heat.

And he's like, no, man. They like threw a rainbow across the street. It was really, really special and fun. And like, yeah, Goldust was just a unique character. But I think if you ask him, it kind of depends. Here's this country boy from Austin, Texas, and then this is the thing he wanted to do, but he really put like dove into it, dove into it.

He's a cinema buff because of Goldbust, because they'd always want him to quote these lines. So it's something that, we're two kids in our family who didn't, we didn't go to college, our education is this, our worldly experience, and I think Dustin got a lot of a good experience out of it. I think the rumor was that Vince was upset at your dad or something, so gave him this rough character. That's always the story of...

So there's no truth to it. The families didn't like each other. Yeah. I think it's a good story. Okay. It's helped me, you know. Yeah. I think it's a good story. Okay. It's helped me, you know? Yeah. But I don't, maybe there's some truth here and there,

but I never experienced it so much. I was too young too. I think maybe Vince and my dad had some back and forth just because my dad went on and did his own thing. He wanted to go back to Florida. He wanted to run Jim Crocker Promett promotions, which was the rival promotion. Also, yeah, I don't know if there was a rivalry that existed. It really didn't come down to me. Unless, of course, the moment they say, hey, you're Stardust. Unless that was it and I just

didn't read between the lines. I'm very naive, so it's possible. But, okay, so you're tired of being Stardust. You're like, I gotta get the hell out of here. You asked for your release. What's going on emotionally right there? Are you going, my career's over? Do you believe there's a path to redemption on the independent circuit? What's happening?

I apologize to any wrestler today, in any company, who thinks they're going to get a release, because I ruined it for a lot of them. And here's why. I didn't ask, I told them in a very like, hey I'll see you next week. I said no you won't. I remember telling the talent relations guy, I said no you won't. Of course everyone has their emotional dramatic filled weeks and you know maybe they just thought it was that. But I actually put my statement out on social media

that hey, thank you so much, done. And once it was out in the ether, there was nothing. It was a huge gamble, because I could have been sued. You know, to this day, I don't think I've ever signed my, the contract, like what's it? When you get the, basically- Non-compete clause? Like I never signed anything after that and it was sent to my house.

Like I could have been sued, probably should have been sued, but I needed to take a very big risk and a very big gamble in that moment. I felt I'd earned it. I thought, hey, the respect they have for my family, all that I've done, never slipped up here once, done everything you asked. Give me this one.

Let me ride off and okay, we're not gonna chase him. Your dad wanted you to leave, right? Oh, well, he just got tired of hearing me complain. Right, cause you're unhappy. Yeah, and I think as a dad it just became, well then quit. Then quit. I don't know how much he meant it, but I always tell people this, And, you know, he... I don't know how much he meant it, but...

I know if he... I always tell people this. If he was like, wake up today and come back in this room, he would be... I'd have so much to explain to him about what happened. Like, everything that happened. And yeah, like... I think if I started it with, well, I've main evented WrestleMania twice. I think he'd, all right, all right, what else happened?

Like, don't worry about it, you know? But yeah, no, I tell people all the time, it wasn't just a burn the bridges, it was a full burn the boats. I need the idea that I may never come back. You accept it, you might never go back. That's a lot of money to walk away from. That's a part that I don't know if people always realize.

Why? You had a guaranteed life. Yes. You could be Stardust forever. You could even potentially go back to Cody Rhodes and the way that it was and make great money for the rest of your life and go off in the sunset. Oh, I didn't know that the... I thought the financial compensation was based on like how often your character was used.

No, no. So at the point, you know, the Attitude Era brought out guaranteed contracts. So guaranteed contracts, it was not only that, an Epo baby contract. Good money. Out of respect for the family and what they've done. Good money. But I didn't care about, like, the respect for my family. I love that. I cared about the respect for me. Like, I never went anywhere. I've been here this whole time, guys. Like, I've done... I've been part of WrestleMania angles, intercontinental title. Like, why do you get me so close to the top of the ladder?

But you never got rich. And not going to take it. And again, I put a lot of that blame on myself looking back at it in hindsight. But at the moment, you mentioned the emotional state. I was...I don't know how I could possibly describe that emotional state. Other than I was scared to death. But couldn't let my wife than I was scared to death, but couldn't let my wife know I was scared to death.

And financially, this is the thing that no one knows, I wasn't the best with my money. So I tell people all the time like, oh, I'm fine. I worked there for 10 years, I'm good. I got a good net. Wasn't the case. How bad? So, well, basically, I'd still be working.

If I started working immediately after the WWE deal ended, I would be check to check in terms of check to check. I just bought our first house and din outside of Dallas. And it wasn't as I always tell people, I'm the one Rhodes is good with his money. No, not necessarily. Yes, yes. And it's his money. No. Not necessarily. Now. Yes, yes, yes.

And it's gotten better. It's gotten better. But that was a very scary moment because I had a wife. Yeah. You know, and like that's the number one thing is I can. I know how to spend it. Well, like she worked for WWE too. Yeah.

She was a ring announcer. And she of course, cause she's super loyal. You know, the number one thing you want, she's I didn't think she was gonna leave. And then a week later, she's like, oh yeah, I'm out too. No, don't. Yeah, we need you.

Don't do that. Lois needs a job. I needed her far more than she realized in that point. You know, everyone, There have been some... imbalance in terms of... One time, I think she was leading, pulling the wagon. And other times, I was able, but I had the best partner in the world. I mean, ballsy and bold for her to leave.

She left, and she needed to because she was getting really... When I was gone, she was saying some wild stuff. She was yelling at people. Yeah, she was just very much a wonderful wife. Love it. Love it. Ready to fight at all times. So I'm like, you know, she's from Detroit, Michigan. She's, yeah, so.

Okay, so you go into the independent circuit. Yeah. Okay, but you do this thing where you post, I think what is it on Twitter? The list. The list. The list, yeah, yeah, yeah. Explain.

That's fire. Okay, so. The list is fire. Explain like the thinking behind this. Are you creating your own storyline? Are you using the heat of leaving and trying to propel yourself in the independent circuit? Is it purely financial or is there like a long game for this as well? The list was, I'd found when people got fired a lot, I hate saying it so strongly, but when people got let go that they would say something it so strongly, but when people got let go, that they would say something like,

hey, that's great, thank you, stay tuned for the next chapter. I always, stay tuned for the next chapter to me is the kiss of death. That to me almost reads as, you don't have a next chapter. So I wanted to have a next chapter. Stay tuned to the next chapter

if you haven't planned anything. This means, hey, this is my plan, this, I'm in control of my fucking destiny, and these are the names I want. And I wanted to mobilize. So at the time, social media is really, really strong. I mean, you could build a brand on there alone. So I wanted to mobilize those fans who did rally behind, I can't believe this is happening. This was one of your guys, and he's out there.

So I wanted to mobilize and I went to Kevin Owens You I work with at WWE and Kevin Owens was the one who kind of proofread the list in a sense of that one's not Gonna do anything. Do you really want that one? Yeah, I think I do and these are the biggest names on the independent circuit I guess it wasn't so much the biggest names some of the biggest names But it was more a real diversity to the list. And what I mean by diversity to the list is I trained through WWE as a WWE type wrestler, old school, TV style, a different style of wrestling. And at the time, the underground scene, it's almost better to label it underground than independent was the coolest stuff you could imagine. Ring of honor. Ring of honor, every independent. I mean, like big, crazy high spots,

athleticism out the roof, a bunch of psychologically nonsensical stuff from my training. But I wanted people to know, like, I'm not above that. Like, F it, I'm gonna come and I'm going to try what I would consider some stupid stuff. And I don't wanna wrestle anybody. I don't wanna do a WWE versus WWE guy.

No, like put me against the youngest, dumbest guy who does really fun stuff. Like put me against that person. I wanna see and test myself and that was a- So everybody on the list is just an idiot? No, no, no, no. They're all smart in their own ways, you know? Like-

That's a code for an idiot. No, no, no, no, no. They're all smart in their own ways, you know like There's only one guy I never got there's one name I didn't check off the list. Yeah, wait who it was a guy named Roderick Strong not an idiot We never crossed paths like I thought we we gotta get this one on the list. Wrestlemania 41. Yeah, man, we gotta get it off the list. But yeah, that was a really fun time. Every one of those people offered something huge to what I was doing. Okay, are they aware of the list? Are they hitting you up on the side like, hey, this is a brilliant idea. Let's make this happen. Yeah. Okay. Well, most of the people on the list were really, I mean, not to like, most people on the list were like,

yes, we'll make this. There's like five different indies I work for who wanna book this, where do you wanna do it? And I'll do promos, I'll do, but most people were really excited. So you guys are both cutting your own promos, you're starting up these stories, and then they're happening on the indie circuit.

Do you immediately notice crowds being a lot bigger than they would normally be at some of these indies? When does it feel like there's a little undercurrent? Well, the second weekend I did Independent Wrestling, I did it for a company called Northeast Wrestling that's Connecticut based, and they were more of a mom and pop indie. And they did softball fields for their big summer shows.

And I noticed, you know, I did three in a row. I noticed we were at like 1500, 2000, 4500. These aren't indie crowds. Indie crowd is 50 to 200. And a smart indie is gonna book a building that only holds. So it looks nice. Yeah, and it's loud and they're excited. And that's your core group.

But I noticed there we were we were having numbers. It's not it two things are happening at the same time. I've helped mobilize me and get people hey, please come check me out if you've never seen independent before. We'll do some cool stuff. You might find some people you like. But also at the time, independents were on the rise. So because of guys like Matt and Nick Jackson are two people, I use an example, but that happening, that happening was the perfect storm. Because some TVs at the time for WWE were doing 4,500. It's not easy. I mean, in all, it's not easy to sell tickets on a regular basis.

So the fact that that was happening really opened my eyes. I was in Manchester in the United Kingdom and there was a show at a kids ice arena. But it held about I think 6,000 people. And I never will know the full number and I could give you the wrestler exaggeration of like we had seven there. But it's a great part of the Vince talk where he goes, we had 93,000 people in Detroit. We had 93,000. So some guy goes, there was 70,000 people in Detroit. We had 93,000. Yeah. So, at a, And some guy goes up, there was 70,000 people in there.

It was Silver Blades Arena, and I remember thinking, this is like a mini, this is actually what I thought, I guess, like a mini WWE show. There's signs for the locker rooms, there's catering, every seat is full,

and that was a big one for me where I thought, there's a thing happening. I wonder who else is in on this thing who else knows who else can drive this What is the next steps and I didn't know though? Did you feel like you were spearheading it or do you feel like there was other? I felt like there were two huge fronts to it and I think I was at the lead of one of those fronts. I think the other front was a group called New Japan Pro Wrestling. And New Japan was doing mind-blowing athleticism and storytelling. They had Kenny Omega and they had the Young Bucks.

And I don't think we have anything in common amongst the four of us, other than we wanted it. We wanted it. We wanted it. We would fight for each other. We would pair together. I went over there and saw exactly the Bullet Club was happening. What's the Bullet Club?

So the Bullet Club was this faction, you know, great factions in wrestling. DX, the Four Horsemen, whatever. It was a faction in New Japan, but they had the sickest merchandise. It was this skull, and it got so big that actually this rep from, I think he was Hot Topic or somewhere, came to a WrestleMania, and he asked somebody, he said, where are the Bullet Club guys? Whoa. And they were like, oh, that's an independent thing.

Whoa. And again, I was so lucky to, their wave was going and my wave was going, and that's where we collided, and from there it was different different. There it is the Bullet Club. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. I was the leader for a short period of time. There's a whole online argument about was I ever a Bullet Club leader. It is official. I did lead it. You heard it here. I did lead it. I won against Kenny to get leadership of the Bullet Club for a brief time but guy in WWE I have to shout him out for that logo, is Finn Balor. He's probably owed millions of dollars for the success of Bullet Club.

He started it and I don't think he's ever seen any of that. I know he's just happy that he was the one. Well, as a former leader, you should cut him a try. That's right. That's right. Hey, man. I just put him over on the block. Hey, man, shut up.

You Kenny the Young Bucks, you start talking about this event. Yeah. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Shout out. So you Kenny the Young Bucks, you start talking about this event. Yeah. Right? Can you tell us how All In ends up happening? All In is the craziest, the original All In was an independent show.

Oh no, no, no, no. Go back even for the Meltzer tweet. Yeah, he said we couldn't do it. So there's a guy, he's a wrestling journalist. He is. Meltzer. It was his birthday yesterday. couldn't do it. So there's a guy, he's a wrestling journalist. He is. It was his birthday yesterday. Oh, well, let's, because he, I think, plays a really important part as in all wrestling stories there are all these side factions that influence the...

He's the biggest observer is what his newsletter is called, but he's been covering wrestling and mixed martial arts for 40 years and it went from being a newsletter that fans got, the inside scoops, but also a lot of the financial aspects of this, that, he just always covered it. And I feel almost forever this tether to him. I wouldn't say we're close or anything like that, but I always feel this tether because he made that tweet. And here I am, he tweets that they asked,

could ROH get 10,000 people in an arena? Ring of Honor, this is the, yeah. At the time, I've been on these shows. I know we can. Buddy, I've seen it. Have you done the show with the Young Bucks and Kenny with Ring of Honor yet? So we've done together with Ring of Honor and New Japan,

we did a show at Lakefront that was for Ring of Honor specifically, that did as did a show at Lakefront that was for Ring of Honor specifically, that did as many seats in the building, it was 7,000 people. So what are we talking about here? So you're feeling the buzz. Not only feeling the buzz, I'm pre-workout up at the gym. I'm loaded.

Let's go. I'm loaded, bro. Niacin is like pumping through my veins. Lifetime Fitness in Woodstock, Georgia. And I saw this tweet and I thought like, no man, like this is, again, let's just will it into existence. So he goes, I don't think anyone in America outside the WWE can do 10,000 seats.

You tweet. I'll take that bet Dave. I said I'll take that bet. And then what is the, what is the like underground feeling or does it cross over from underground to just WWE? Fans like what's happening? Well immediately upon tweeting it. I had to call everyone and hey, are we interested? I I am very very worried and I would I would not worry that we couldn't but at this point I'm wrestling for one company a pretty exclusive domestically in the United States that being Ring of Honor

And Matt and Nick we're all making the same rounds Kenny's in Japan the whole time. We need Financing can we go to Ring of Honor for some assistance with financing and he just passed away a wonderful man named Joe Kauff was he's far more instrumental in it than people ever know because he saw what we were doing and thought okay it's definitely not in your contract but we can help with production we can we can help you here's the number to call here's Gary Jester was his name because again I'm now calling buildings hey Ontario California you know that building out there is a US bank arena or something like calling these buildings like hey we want to run a show the, you know that building out there, it's a US bank arena or something like that, calling these buildings like, hey, we wanna run a show. The guy has no-

He's just cold calling. I'm cold calling, yeah, yeah. And so we get what we need in place to be able to do it. We're also told, I think it was Labor Day or Memorial Day weekend, and they give us the September, which one's September, Labor Day? Labor Day, yeah. They told me that's the worst date for wrestling.

It's never like- People have plans, they're partying, they're at the beach, why would they September? Labor Day? Labor Day. Yeah. They told me that's the worst date for wrestling. It's never like... People have plans, they're partying, they're at the beach. Why would they go to the wrestling? That's why it's available. And I thought, OK, it's cheap, it's available. Here we are, we're going to scale. This is one of my favorite things in my brief management run was to be able to scale tickets.

So, OK, front row, $150. You know, that's like this bowl, like $25. I thought it was so cool. I've got no clue what I'm doing. But, and Matt, and Matt, Nick, Brandy, Dana, Kenny, we're all kind of in on this together. We're paying people the most, you know, PayPal, Vimmo, Cash.

But the big rule we wanted to break was there was rules even for all the companies that you can't cross the streams. Like this is before the term forbidden door was coined, but can such and such from CMLL in Mexico be in the same ring with a guy from AAA in Mexico. And we were of the thought, there are no rules to the show. We're running the show. Me and these two other guys are running this.

So if you wanna be on it, it's gonna be huge. And how we knew it was gonna be huge is we put the tickets on sale, it crashed. We're on the drive from this press conference where the mic didn't even work. We're already as Bush League as we could be and it crashes and it sold out in I think it sold out in 23 minutes, 11,236. United Center, Chicago. Not United, it was, United holds like 20,000. So what's the 11,000? Now Arena in Schaumburg. Oh, this is the suburb of-

We said Chicago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also there's like a plaque on the outside of it to this day with me and Matt, Matt and Nick's faces that I've never seen in person just because they were doing graduations, some minor league games here and there. They hadn't had something fill it up

like that either in a long time. And yeah, 23 minutes or 11,236 people and everything at that point, everything in my life changed. Do you tweet anything at that moment? Do you tag Melton? I think I tweeted a lot of stuff. A lot of free workout.

Yeah, always my best ideas under pre-workout. I actually tell Triple H whenever I send him a creative idea, I always will say, I'm caffeinated up. Because I'll look at it 10 hours later and be like, why the hell? Why was this important? Yeah, the post-pump clarity is amazing. Yeah, exactly.

Unreal. That's where the tweets should go out, or the text. But at that point, the first thing that happened with All In isn't just the show itself. The best way I can describe it, it was like Woodstock for wrestling. Cause this guy who does a series of podcasts, he's super successful.

He's helped rehabilitate a lot of the older wrestlers. His name's Conrad Thompson. Conrad told us, he's like, hey, can I run a convention? People are gonna piggyback off this destination event you guys have created. This is unheard of. Can I do a convention at the Hyatt and I'll take care of it, you give me the rules,

because we were really big on, it's not gonna be a legends deal. This is young, this is up and coming, you're gonna see the next generation of superstar and wrestler, and once he set that, three day convention, every vendor applied, every booth was filled. I remember walking into that hotel and there's just an entire lobby full of wrestling fans

all in that Bullet Club shirt. And they've got a live radio set up in the lobby. And when we walked in, everyone just stood up and clapped. And I felt like royalty. Then I went by the bar menu and the bar menu is labeled with like Faro's fries American Nightmare cheeseburger. I was like, yes Happening like we made it. Oh man. Did anything go wrong? everything

Like minutes leading up to the event where you like oh we got to cancel it So the I almost I wouldn't be sitting in here sitting in this chair had this gone the other way And this is not a fun story to tell or anything like that, but it's the truth because some people know the story. I got into a slight tussle the night before because I'm walking Pharaoh, my beloved husky, who's always a part of what I do. And I had him off a leash. I was in the wrong. But Pharaoh is chill. Pharaoh's not ever going to be a problem, but this man got in my face over it.

So you shouldn't, that's dangerous. Probably right, he's probably had a bad experience with a dog, I'm not even, you're probably right. But something about it, maybe I had some caffeine in my system, I don't know what it was. But he like got so close that I felt like he had encroached on my space. So I did shove him, and when I shoved him,

he rolled back into the bushes, like he took this enormous Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin style fall. And the next thing I knew, I was like, oh no. He's a wrestler. Oh no, like done bro. Yeah. So, you know, like, oh, and he had called the cops.

I decided, hey, I'm gonna stay in the lobby. I'm not gonna try and run. I'll stay in the lobby. So it really had, he said, like, I'm pressing charges. It's over. It's over, it's over. And that was the first, the next day was the first day in my career I had a security detail.

And my wife was, you do not leave this room without this man, his name was Sam. He's like, Sam is going everywhere with you. Like I was a problem child all along or something. At least one incident happened over our dog. You gotta put on a leash. Yeah, yeah. They put you on a fucking leash.

They put me on a leash, but I got to the building. Yeah, it was touch and go for a second. In addition to that, we lost one of our producers. There's a little pyro, hijinks that went off at the beginning where we were trying to show people that we were the first company to have pyro again, and it didn't explode, but then it did as I was starting to go into the next bitch.

Jesus Christ. Like the fucking Joker did. Randomly I got an email again, I've almost been arrested now so I can't go to sleep, I got an email in the middle of the night from John Mayer's publicist and I thought no, that's clearly not real. Like hey John would like to come with his friends who are doing a bachelor party but there are no seats. I guess a true, true sellout. Yeah, whatever. Like, I'm not replying to this. Again, I'm already in the doghouse the next morning. I wake up and Dana Massey was her name.

She tells me like, hey, did you get back to that email? Like, no. Well, I did. John Mayer is coming to this show. I'm like, wait, John Mayer? Like the actual John Mayer? Like, he's coming? And we legit didn't have a seat, so we put him in the middle of the aisle. So he's just in the show. I'm like, wait, John Mayer? Like, the actual John Mayer? He's coming? And we legit didn't have a seat, so we put him

in the middle of the aisle. So he's just in the middle. So the whole show, you can see him. Like, every match. There he is, man. John, that's so cool. It was really touching that he wanted to come. I just didn't believe it.

But yeah, it's just a series of little calamities. But when we got there, everyone was so excited to be on it. Everyone- How was the wrestling that night? Pshh, other, the main event got super rushed because one match went over, but even super rushed, it was fireworks. Rey Mysterio was part of it.

Yeah, himself. Just him giving us the rub. It's like, here's a former world champion in WWE Hall of Famer. Rey Mysterio wants to be part of All In. And again, I'll never forget, Rey is heading to the ring taking pictures with other wrestlers who are backstage shocked that they're in the same locker room as Rey

when the show has eight minutes left on the air. I'm like, buddy, in his little Wolverine outfit, I'm like, please go to the ring. Come on, please go to the ring. But I think the most fun I had was after my stuff was over, I got to sit down in the producer chair and just put the headset on and call a few shots here and there, and say, hey, check this out,

this is coming. And it just felt like the job I always wanted, the moment I always wanted, but I'm real greedy. I am, I'm super, white meat, I'm super greedy that the moment it was happening, I just was thinking, what else are we gonna do? I bet we can do this again. I bet we can go double or nothing.

I bet we can do this again. And yeah. When do you get the call from Tony Khan? He was at the original All In. Okay. Yeah. I needed some help. So I needed help flying Chris Jericho.

Matt Nickme needed help flying Chris Jericho there. And Tony offered to use his plane. And Tony's a big wrestling fan. Yeah. Okay, but he also comes from some money. I think his family's involved with the Jaguars and some of that. Yeah, they own the Jags.

They own the Jags. Okay, yeah. So he, you and him connect. He sees what the four of you guys are doing. AEW sprouts out of that. Yeah. Do you have to pitch him? Is he pitching you guys? No, I think, and I think that's one of the more why, maybe, I wouldn't say, I hope there's no tension between all of the four on the ground, but everyone's got a different story a little bit.

And everyone's story puts them in the driver's seat, for sure, and I think he already had in his mind, because he had scribbled down the name Dynam seat for sure. And I think he already had in his mind, because he had scribbled down the name Dynamite for TV, I think he'd already had in his mind what he wanted. I think what we offered was proof of concept. And that, hey, we can show this to somebody. Because I remember sitting in the up fronts for, at the time, WarnerMedia before Discovery.

Up fronts are like an advertising showcase. So you, just for anybody who's watching right now. So basically you talk to all the people that would potentially advertise on your programs and you pitch them what it's gonna be. Yeah, and it was at Madison Square Garden. It was a blue carpet, all this, and I remember, so I'm sitting there

and this guy is going on and on about the show we're doing, but he's never seen it and they they're using photos from All In, and photos from our independent run. They're just plastered up there, and there's Daniel Radcliffe sitting in front of me, Shaq is in the corner, I'm like, please take my picture down. This guy spent a lot of time on us.

I hope we do well, but that's where it all started, and everybody had a different, again, Mad Nick can claim to be in the driver's seat, I have a claim to it, Tony for sure has a claim to it, Kenny, everybody, I think that's why it all started and everybody had a different, again, Madnik can claim to be in the driver's seat. I have a claim to it. Tony for sure has a claim to it. Kenny, everybody, I think that's why it worked. I think that's why it worked. I look forward to everyone's books being out

where it's like, ah, it was me, I did it. There's a great book called The Dirt, which is like Motley Crue's story. And it's told in four different ways. So each member of the band has their rendition of the story. And how different these four fucking stories. Oh yes, that's the best. Like there's one story where a guy's like, yeah I fell in love with this girl

and then the next guy is telling the story he's like, this guy was fucking my girl and I didn't even realize. And they all truly believe that's what's happened. That's why I never, I never try to go in absolutes on anything because I know everyone truly believes their part in this. Chris Jericho coming in and given the rub you know having had such a successful WWE career having main evented WrestleMania and him he has a AI was in the driver's seat. The rub means what like legitimizing or passing on? The rub from us, you know, when we're talking about Rey on All In is when you have someone who has all this equity, all this fan support and they're making you legit.

Legitimacy rubs off on y'all. wonderful moment where it was as simple as here's this guy I drove around and now he's peacemaker and a movie star, John Cena, just bringing me out on a Monday night roll to introduce me and holding my hand up and that's a rub. And the rub works both ways. So me going on the independent scene, I got to give a little WWE guy TV, but I got the underground rub. Especially, hey, I'm gonna try this stupid Yeah stuff some of it suit. I'm gonna go for it Drake giving out a bunch of features on like Yeah

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Visit delta clouds with a Z.com and start saving. Disclaimer, you must be 21 years or older to purchase and delta clouds.com only ships Delta products to legal states. Now let's get back to the show. All these Indies were so great and like you could feel them kind of coming up. Were there any that were depressing?

Like you go from an arena every single night to then within a week you're in like a ballroom at like a Marriott. Okay, so there's, I always say I did, because we did an absurd amount of every weekend and the schedule was where I'd have to fly every day because it wasn't like a normal loop where I could travel and the logistics weren't coordinated.

I got from All Pro Wrestling and NorCal to one in Corpus Christi. There's one bad indie I did, but every indie had its unique charm. For example, there's no pyro, there's no explosions, there's not a lot of production on Independence. I remember I did this really good one actually called VIP Wrestling, and I stood up on the second buckle

to do something, flex, stick my arms out, just G up a little, and this dude shot like a pop gun of confetti up into me. And I thought, that's okay. That's where we're at. Thank you. You know, appreciate it, dog. Thank you. How do you honestly react to that?

No, I remember thinking like a lot of times in my mind and say like, yep, this is where we're at. This is, I knew what it was. And as long as the seats were full, I'm not mad. So that's the one you didn't wanna be at. And I am lucky I did not have one of those where you see these horror stories online and I didn't have the second row was empty.

I didn't have it. I was lucky that every place I went, we got to fill up or near fill up. The only bad one I ever did, I was doing a guest role on Arrow at the time. Stephen Amell, who I'd worked with briefly at WWE, gave me this huge opportunity to come and do Arrow. And I lied to the production.

Again, money. I again needed to get serious about this. So the production was like, you gotta stay in Vancouver. You can't leave. Well, I know I'm not shooting on this day. I know for sure. I'm double confirmed. So I'm gonna go to this random independent in Connecticut,

which is a hike to get there from Vancouver. From Vancouver to Connecticut. Yeah, on the way. And I'm gonna do my normal bit, have this big match, and I'll stay in the ring. And if you wanna come in the ring and take photos, it's always for me, that was the best part of the night, the end of the night.

So I go to Connecticut to this independent, and the night before I'm in Vancouver, and it's legit three in the morning, and they're not done with me yet, and I'm laying in a pool of water, and they've got just the gun from the scene pointed at me, and they're just trying to frame the shot up. I'm in the middle of like cold winter in Vancouver,

laying in this water in full gear, in the whole deal, and I had told the to frame the shot up. I'm in the middle of like cold winter in Vancouver, laying in this water in full gear and the whole deal. And I told the lady at the production, I was like, have that van ready to take me to the airport. Like, just don't say anything about where I'm going. Have it ready to take me to the airport. So I go to the airport. And it's just a stressful day. I'm putting on spray tan in the bathroom at the Sky Club.

I'm just having a stressful day. But I wanted to make this show and I get there and we do the match and it's great. And then I'll remember the promoter had promised me for an after party. And that didn't seem right. I didn't feel like that was part of the deal. And I had said like, hey, I'll sign a bunch of stuff, whatever you need, but like, no. And then he got a little aggressive with me on this was part of the deal, that you do this after party.

So at this point, out of spite, like, you got it, I'll be there, so the guy's driving me, I come to the after party, I get carted outside the door, which has been a long time, big marker on my hand, I'm like, oh, this is great, I sit down, there's nothing to this, I did not need to be here, there's not a fan engagement to it, there's nothing to this. I did not need to be here. There's not a fan engagement to it. There's nothing to it.

And I guess it was his birthday or something. So when he walks in, everyone clapped for him and had this big moment. And I thought this is, this is the one bad one I've had. And a lot of other factors went into it. It wasn't just his birthday party. But yeah, other than that, I had no bad experiences. I knew what it was. Yeah.

I knew where we were at. You level set the expectations Oh also my mom she's She has the best quote of all when I told her I'm I'm gonna go do independent wrestling and I'm gonna make something Of it and I'm gonna make it I remember telling her and she said great. You'll either end up dead or in jail Dead or in jail and now mama Rhodes is a fixture on WWE television Mama Rhodes is a fixture on WWE television. Gets her front row seat to every show. So just does a little wave. I always laugh when you tell a story

because it's like dead or in jail. Mom, it's wrestling. Dead or in jail. Selling drugs on the fucking corners in Baltimore. It seemed a bit extreme. Dead or in jail. Also, how do you get dead or in jail? Hey, the independent wrestling didn't work out,

so I got murdered? Hey, independent wrestling, so I started crime? I don't you get dead or in jail? Paying the independent wrestling didn't work out, so I got murdered? Or paying the independent wrestling so I started crime? Like, I don't know, dead or in jail? And now she's loving it. How different was the bag, like, when you left WWE to doing the independent circuit? Like, how much of a... Yeah, what are you making a show on the independent circuit?

A financial drop, yeah. Great question. So the biggest thing you've got to do, and I think it's the same to this day, is you can't out-price yourself on an independent. So I noticed some guys would come from WWE, and I think it's the same to this day, is you can't out price yourself on an independent. So I noticed some guys would come from W2B, and this promoter, remember, they might have 200 seats to sell.

They're probably all 20, $30 maybe, and they're gonna get some from the tables if they have guys like merchandise element to it or whatever, maybe. So I'd see guys price themselves at $4,500 a show. I mean, let's just do the math. Like you got 200 people, $20. What was that, four grand?

Yeah. Yeah, so this is one guy. So one guy prices himself at $4,500. They can't make any money. Over three days, unless you have a sponsor or somebody's there, it's like a set. There's all these little loopholes you could find. I didn't want to be that guy because I

knew they won't bring me back. But I also can't price myself too low. So we ended up. There were shows I did for, I mean, there were some shows I did for free. There were some shows I would do for like 1500 bucks. And some shows I did for 750, it was all over the map. But the point was, they're gonna have such a good time.

I'm not gonna be involved in your storyline here so much You don't have to worry about that I'm gonna do so much with them at the end of the night and throughout the meet and greet that you'll Keep me coming keep me coming and they never I always stayed booked It's one of my things I hate the most about modern indie wrestling is the inflation the money is now huge in our game So guys are saying oh, I need first class and six grand. Like, buddy, again, there's 200 people there, man. Like, take a look at the room, you know, do you want to do this or do you not? And yeah, it's, uh, I

was, I was lucky that it was definitely a far beneath where I was at with WWE in terms of the bag. But if you hustle and there's a guy on the independent scene now, Matt Cardona, who had been with WWE for, if you hustle, you will find a lot of money. It's just new to you. Matt Cardona spoke about an interesting concept with you. It's called the Cody lie. Cody lie, yeah, yeah. He's famous for the Cody lie. What is the Cody lie? Cody lie is...

This is your heel turn right here on the Flavor of Fuck. If the story needs a little extra, then you just throw it, you gotta keep it, the rule of the Cody liars has to be true, but there's just got an added element to it. He talks about his first meeting when he had come to talk to us at AEW and how he blew that meeting,

and he claims he didn't say the things he did. He said two of the three things I said he did. The third is just an added for the color, you know for give it a little something Yeah, but he did say I know they're outside of Entertainment these lies are just in life, right? Well, what's the difference? I? Would say it's never a lie. It's just you got to put a little like a little something on it Yeah, exactly. Like it's a if you've ever seen the man who shot Liberty Valance It's a classic like once the legend becomes fact,

print the legend. Come on, I grew up under the tree of the storyteller man. I'm not gonna, you know. Oh, we're comedians, we know about life. Yeah, if I'm reading a book to Liberty and it's not as great, you know, Mother Gothel may not be the healer in this story. Maybe she had her own problem.

You gotta use lies to tell the truth. There we go. That's a good way to put it, yeah. Cody Lai has been exaggerated in the business now to the point where I have to be very firm about, hey, I'm dead serious. Please understand, this is not a bit. This happened, and I hate that.

What is the action figure Lai that you told? It's not, listen. So he, he claimed Hasbro WWF action figures which are famous. There's a rumor that there's a yellow boots variant Dusty Rhodes. And the reality is there isn't. There's a sun damaged Dusty Rhodes where the boots have become yellow. And that's what people are talking about, the yellow boots.

But I told him, and I would be the expert on this being that's my father, that I did have one. And that I had spoken to someone high up at Hasbro and they wanted it, but I wanted him to get the first look at it. Matt Cardona. Matt Cardona. And he asked, well, where is it? I said, I'll bring it to TV.

And I had it in my bag. I had nothing in my bag. I had nothing in my bag. I'm seeing how long I can go. This is not a Cody lie. This is a lie. It's just a regular big lie. Well, here's where the truth might be. There might be a young man in Sustin.

There might be. There might be. There might be. There might be. There might be. There might be. So I told him, I said, just go, go, it's in my bag. Just go get it.

But the whole point of this was I wanted him to get caught going through my bags so that I could tell the locker room here, this guy's going through our bags. We needed to kick him out of the locker room. He gets some look in his bag. He tells everybody, he's gonna steal shit. You don't go into someone's bag. That's an instant see of life. So I went right in on him.

Like, how, you can't trust this guy. He's going into someone's bag. That's an instant see of life. Why is he in your bag? That's what you have to do. So I went right in on him. Like, you can't trust this guy. He's going into people's bags. And he was, how he didn't know. Why would I, A, put it in my bag? Like, if it's this valuable piece, is it just loose in my bag? But yeah, I told everybody I went through my bag

and that's a problem in the locker room, you know? But we got over it. We got over it. Okay, A.W., you're the VP, you have everything. Once again, life is great, you're making money, you took all the risk, no reason to leave, you're killing it, everything's going great, right? Why on earth would you shake the cage again?

Hmm, there's a, I don't wanna give you a Cody lie. Well, give us a Cody lie. There's so many factors that went into it, but this is one small example, because when I start talking about this, people try to cite, oh, it was this, oh, it was this, it was this. Here's what I can tell you, it wasn't.

It wasn't anything to do with Tony and Brandy. That's a big one you hear all the time, that Tony didn't sign Brandy. No, Brandy had been resigned roads to the top We had a nice show on TBS that had been renewed for a second season a go big show Which I was doing with Burke Chrysler and snoop and killing it. So you have all these other things are also leaving I don't know if people realize that but you had the reality show Oh, yeah show that you're hosting with Bert and obviously you're a fixture and part of a VP

of this wrestling organization. So to leave all of that. It was just a situation that felt icky, and this is how I kinda look at it in the end. I had really great memories with all of them. All the way back to All In, like the Woodstock of wrestling. I had a really beautiful experience for a while and I wanted to keep the memories good.

I wanted to be able in 10 years if I see those guys or I wanted to keep them good. Yeah, I also wanted them to know this is the Louisiana Purchaser Wrestling dog. I'll make sure. But I had great memories with them and I wanted them to know. Okay, is it true that Vince flies to your house in Atlanta

to pitch you on coming to WWE? Yep, yeah, he found out through the dirt sheets as we call them. We need a better name for our wrestling media, but that's what we call them, the dirt sheets. Sounds like a ditty party. Oh my God. Yeah, we really need a better name. He found out that I was free and free free. Nobody wanted to dabble. If you're not free, if this is a storyline, if this is a bit, we don't need to be talking because that's trouble. So I found out I was free free and came to my house in Atlanta and it was really old school in terms of,

hey, there's no promises beyond this is what we are considering. You wrestling Seth Rollins at WrestleMania 38 in Dallas. Seth Rollins was somebody I'd felt like I'd been chasing when I was there the first time. And really old school, scribbled on a piece of paper the amount of money the contract would be for, and just slid it across, which was unnecessary.

What was it? What was it? What was it? I can't tell you exactly how much it was. I can tell you it's, I mean, 15 times more than what I had been making in WWE the first run.

It was a different layer of... Of course, well you've earned it. It was a different, even with everything I'd done and with all those other shows, but this was hilarious, it was slid across to me. You guys are alone in your house. Yes. You could just say it out loud.

You could just say it. You just slid it across. Yeah. You can't get out of character. It's impossible for them. But that happened, and I looked at that, and I actually didn't, again, not the smartest, it wasn't really a money thing.

It was, I thought, this is huge if I own all this stuff. The logo, my music, my look. Most of the times you get caught in the aspect of, that's ours, these creations of yours. So many of little things I created don't belong to me. However, this Was created outside. This is one of the most random things here so I can bring this actual whole thing So that was my concern is this meaning the American the American nightmare. The music is a big part of it Every aspect of what I do the fact that I'm not gonna say title, I'll say belt, I have to be me.

And one of the quotes that was given to me in that meeting was, it's not broke, that's why we're buying it. And I thought, okay, then we're on the same page. Because I really wanted them to know I was not, hey, I'm a grown up now. But I wanted them to know, was not, you know, hey, I'm a grownup now, but I wanted them to know, like, I've done a few things here. I've got a good command of what I can do and what I cannot do, and almost overcompensated

in explaining that to people so that they get, like, he's not to be trifled with these days, you know? And I played my cards that way, I suppose, and the next thing you know, there's like this three-month period where now I'm off, shockingly have left this baby of mine, this thing that I really loved to go back and go after the burst stream I had in the business, which is what's been awkwardly sitting on my lap.

Was that interaction with Vince when he's at your house different than every other interaction you've had with him, you know, growing up or even in the promotion the first time? No, he was always really, again, I had a great experience because maybe it was respect for my family and not so much respect for me. So I was always treated with a quality. I think this one, maybe it was different because I could talk to him about things

that I had been educated on. You're a big boy now. Yeah, well, like I can talk to you about- You've also been at his shoes. You know what it's like to run a promotion. I can talk to him about things that I had been educated on. You're a big boy now. Yeah, well, like I can talk to you about- You've also been in his shoes. You know what it's like to run a promotion. I can talk to you about a format. I can talk to you about this silly, we timed this. I can talk to you about the overhead on-bill.

I can talk to you about a few of these things. You're not just an actor, you're a director, you're a producer. Yeah, right, which is one of the quotes from my original run in WWE. I think it was Bruce Pritchard who told me this but he said, you know If you really get good at this job You have to be your own wrestler your own referee your own commentator your own cameraman

You have to know everything you're doing at all times and these people with you have to know Because then you'll be in control and that was very much it felt like one of those moments I thought in that meeting I wasn't coming back though. Wait, why? I thought in that meeting it would be good to have a moment of, okay, I appreciate that. Thank you. It feels good to be wanted. It feels great to be wanted and wanted by the place that helped raise me, my home. But I thought I was still going to go out. Again, my plan looks like I had a plan everybody else. I was a total bluff I didn't know what the plan was, you know, I certainly could have gone back at that point today Yeah, yeah, we certainly could have figured that out and and and been fine, but I just

something inside was Was was pointing a different direction for me. I think was the slide. I think yeah You keep pretending's not the money, but you got 15 next week, you got the four. And you're like, I don't know what ethereal force was pulling me toward. Spirit! A private banker, I have no idea.

It's always a great call though, when you can like, for example, I could call Brandy, I was like, hey, this was, you gotta know what was just slid across on a piece of paper, you gotta know. And, you know, just, my wife is, she's a stone, very little breaks her. And it's fun when you can hear like, wait, what? Oh, wow, you know, like, oh, yeah. And just, we had to be really sure it was the right thing. Because remember, I left there not on the best of terms. So here's my curiosity. Are you getting pitched a storyline in that moment?

No, so people think there's a storyline, people think there's a contractual element, nothing. So all you have is Seth Rollins, WrestleMania. One match, one dollar figure. That's it under the idea that I would come in and be there for three years. So okay, they have the right to you for three years after that and you get to take all your IP into WWE, which is kind of unheard of. Super complicated too. Nobody can do that now. WWE's legal team.

There's Disney World, right? Oh my gosh. Wait, what do you mean? Well, no, it was so complicated for them to be like, wait, he owns the song, but do we like? It was just- Because they're used to creating the character and then owning the IP. Even when those characters leave, they can't be their WWE version in other organizations a lot of times.

Today you probably could because Nick Khan and Triple H are kind and open to the idea that yeah, go take that. But back in the day. It used to be very much, hey, if your finisher was the Crossroads and it was named on our show and Michael Cole was the first to say it, you have no claim to that whatsoever. But I brought everything of my own into it and just to was the first to say it. You have no claim to that. What's it? Yeah. So but I brought everything of my own into it. And just to see them have to work it out, to see them all have to kind of work hard legally. I thought, oh, it's cool. We're really kind of fun.

They're they're really doing everything they can to get this. OK, make this work. So take it. Go, go out. One thing I don't understand about your time in A.W. as a VP, how come you couldn't challenge for the championship again? Like who's like, oh, it's a great this. So I, I, that's a great question. I had done two full storylines that I would say I completely oversaw one was with Chris Jericho for the championship. And Chris collaborated on that

offered hugely to it, Tony as well. But that was like, here was my week one, week two, week three, week four. I was terrified of winning the championship, even though there's kind of this revisionist history. The last year, I was a bad guy. They were booing me left and right. But those first two years, and especially those first few months,

I was the hottest thing they had. And that was a great spot to be in. But my fear was, if I win the title, I'm abusing this. You're abusing your power. I'm the hottest thing they had. And that was a great spot to be in. But my fear was if I win the title, I'm abusing this. You're abusing your power. I'm the executive vice president. And my dad, who was the executive vice president and executive producer of Jim Crogger Promotions, he had won the championship and the people loved it.

But later the Meltzer's, the different, and I'm not knocking Dave by any means, but the industry journalists, that's something they looked at and they would judge. And I would say it's a huge mistake that I went that route because I was hot and the fans were happy. Oh, oh, huge mistake. So in my mind, I didn't wanna do it,

and we put ourselves in a situation where I can never challenge for it again. I remember it's wrestling. Clearly you can go back on it. And I told them, like, nope, this is a never go back on. I wanna make it clear. I want to make my story just as big as the world title, which was a problem in itself. You might as well be world champion.

But that story was the one I had a good control on. I'd look back at it and say, perhaps that decision was a mistake. But my heart was in the place of I didn't want fans to think I'm going to abuse this position. Clearly I'm juiced into the office and helping lead this forward. I didn't want them to think I was that. Even though probably from a creative standpoint, it would have been just fine. I think it's a- I thought it would've been a pigeonhole to you that you can never go for the title again.

Yeah, and it's like- And once you're there- You gotta have a ceiling. Once you're there, I didn't realize how much of a ceiling that is for certain fans. To me, I thought, no, you'll be fine with, I'll do these really great stories that just don't revolve around the title. Wrestling, end of the day, sometimes it's not rocket science. It might just be about the title.

You know what I'm saying? It's not about the title, but having an end goal is exciting to people. A hundred percent. And knowing you can't ever get there, I think, removes a little bit of that journey. And the only way I could get there is by being a bad guy. Fully like, ah, screw that. That was a self-imposed, you know? And I wasn't ready for that.

I understand that as the misstep. I do think not being able to get the title adds to your lore. You know what I mean? So I think it worked out in the long run. Because we constantly are rooting, right? Like give this guy a fucking chance, why can't he get it? And coming back to WDB, again, it was all about the title. WrestleMania 39 in LA, and so far,

everyone's thinking this is it. This is the moment. I wanna get to that. So after 38, the Rawlins match, I mean there's just this awesome moment where he's standing there. He's kinda sitting there and like, does he know how long the delay's gonna be?

I don't think Seth knew he was going to be in the ring that long. I mean, before the lights go out, he's there. And then it looks like he's like, and then he starts going, stop making me wait. But he literally, I feel like he's going, guys, what the fuck? Stop making me wait. If he said it, he 100% meant it. Let's go. And then the lights go out.

And then people, I feel feel thought it might be you But they didn't believe that it could be that to me. I didn't believe it could be okay I just went out and did all this. Yeah And also I was worried you're gonna boo me like I started the oh I started the other place with my buddies and then we went head-to-head with NXT and really took a lot of shots I mean my first PLE there, I smashed a facsimile of Triple H's throne just to let people know,

hey, this is the direction I'm going. But when I walked out, it didn't matter to them. It was weird. When I walked out at Mania, you can see for about 40 seconds, I am in a trance. I'm blown away that they're jumping, like not just cheering, but jumping up and down. see for about 40 seconds, I am in a trance. I'm blown away that they're jumping,

like not just cheering, but jumping up and down. I am wanted that my whole life. I don't know, like I haven't been in a WWE ring. They're different types of rings. I haven't even trained in a WWE ring. I haven't been one in eight years at this point or whatever. Just every step I'm in this trance. And the feeling I got was just felt like

the brother Our kid who was part of the family hadn't been home just walked back in the door That's what it felt like like young and old fans were like nah. He's cool. He's cool. He's he grew up here Okay, you know so you get the positive reaction for the fans. Do you God do you in that moment? Go, okay. I'm a face or you store Or are you unsure of what you're gonna be? So I'm forever unsure. So starting this whole conversation, like yes, 100%, white me baby face. I am forever unsure.

And I tell people in charge that Triple H, who's been so good to me, I tell him this all the time. I say, hey, I don't have a good compass anymore because I don't know what's right, what's wrong. Cause I did it all now. I've gone around the spectrum. Maybe I do and I don't admit it,

but I feel like my compass isn't as great. So I rely on you. If you think this is the play, that's where the quarterback terminology came up. I'll run it. And the play hasn't been wrong yet. So I like going that strategy. Just because in that moment, I had lost a lot of my compass.

Even that great reaction, that moment, I still thought, well, this story will evolve. Seth has every right and every reason to gripe. He's been here waving the banner. One of the greatest ever to do it. WrestleMania 40's MVP is Seth Rollins. He has every right to chew me up and spit me out on the mic and I'd have to just take it. I'd have to just take it. WrestleMania 40's MVP is Seth Rollins. He has every right to chew me up and spit me out on the mic and I'd have to just take it. I'd have to just take it. And

they just, again, the fans didn't care. And you know, a lot of little kid fans, they're not in, that's not their, they're not interested in it anyway. It's not war and peace. They just, you know, let's blow some stuff up and hit some cool moves. But yeah, no, I was very lucky. Guys, this is very important. I need, we need to stress something right now. This is the last episode that comes out before the end of our democracy. Yeah.

Okay, I don't know who's gonna end it, but according to the internet, no matter who wins, the democracy is ended. Yes. Magda! Yeah! It's done. No!

You can feel your girls cooked, right? When CNN is fighting, bro, when Anderson Cooper is out there struggling, the best man or woman will win. Say it again. The best man or woman will win. You mean that? No. It's not looking good.

It's not looking good. And Trump is on Saint Rogan's today. Apparently, Trump is on Rogan today. We recorded this Friday. Let's see it, we gotta see it when these things happen. Kamala was supposed to go on Rogan, and then something happened. What do you think happened?

Pussy. Or shh. What do you think? Or she wants to stay in the battleground states where it actually matters, because that's gonna win her the election. That actually is a good point, being that she's in Texas,

and specifically Houston and Austin, this weekend. Maybe she is. Also, have they ever, I and Austin this weekend. Maybe she is. Also, has anyone ever, I love it when people, I don't think she is though. She's in Fri, she's in Houston, she's supporting fucking the guy who's going up against Boogerlip. What's his name? Boogerlip? What? Santa Cruz or whatever his name is. Oh yeah.

Remember Boogerlip? Oh, cute. And then she's gonna be in Austin as well. So she's there. She could literally go down the block and just make it happen. Also, who's ever not voted for someone because they don't spend more time in your state? You know, I thought the same thing, but... No, that shit affects it.

Really? If it didn't affect it, they wouldn't all be there. But what is the thinking? Like, oh, they weren't in my state for two weeks. You know, I don't get it. There's still people that are undecided. So it's like, imagine you speak to somebody face toto-face that might win you over does with this guy every time he meets a person President of the moment exactly clean clean bar you voted for Coney Road

I'm voting for honestly the undertaker Happen like there and the winner is lights go out undertaker there Go out, Undertaker there, Trump and Kamala. Yeah, I don't know. But listen, you can bet on it with stake if you want. You know, put your money up. Put your money where your mouth is, bro. Put your money where your mouth is. Let's go.

You put your money where Kamala's mouth is. That's the president you're talking about. That's, first of all, the vice president. But what her mouth is is saying she's going to win. So put your money on her mouth. Why are you keep is saying she's gonna win so put your money on her mouth You say the people and put money on Donald's mouth, I'm just saying some say that her mouth got her places Wow, I can't believe you even think like that. So close the election. You've been watching CNN CNN has turned into alt-right news network. CNN is an alt-right news network. Unlike this show, it's very biased, unbiased in the middle.

We have no bias whatsoever. We're straight down the middle. Yeah, we just put our money on the bill. Fox does the heel turn. If it comes a liberal, that'll be fire. There's a bunch of liberal cocks over there. Fox. Let's go.

Yeah, that's fire. Just cocks. Just so cocky over there. We're just soy boys. Wait, wait, so CNN's going face? Yo, CNN is going, well, it depends how you view the world, Mark. But the fact that you just said that is you think-

Why is me baby-faced? Oh, hell yeah. Hillary Clinton's gonna try to fuck it. Dude! Wait, what? That was a sexual joke about Hillary Clinton, bro! I'm sorry. That was a former first lady.

I'm going heel. Don't go heel, Mark. You go sorry. That was a former first lady. I'm going heel. Don't go heel, Mark. You go too far when you go heel. Sorry. Yeah, you need to really rein it in. We just need to be calm, cool, and collected. Yeah. You know?

Like Al right now is calm, cool, and collected, ready to take an L. I take no Ls. Do you really think that Kamala can win? Yeah, I do. This is. Hold it. Hold it.

Yeah. Yeah. I think she can. Do you really think that the person that has a 50% chance of winning can win? Do you really think Trump and Kamala are running in this shit? I think Trump has a chance too, bro. Now you're talking. Everyone's around him and I think you're so fucking dumb. You say the most genius shit.

Okay, Lloyd? Yeah. Yo, let's put it in places where mouths is art. Yo, I'm trying to put my money on Kamala's mouth. Yeah. I'm trying to put it on Trump's mouth, too. This is why we didn't get the Kamala into it, bro. Yeah, right? You think this has something to do with it?

Yeah, I think so. Your jokes about her giving filet-che? I would never. You had jokes about that. I know. I would never. What do you mean? I would never. You had jokes about that. I know. I would never. What do you mean?

I would never two minutes ago. Listen, people take this show very seriously, Bill. So we need to act correct. We need to have a little more decorum. If you want to bet on this election, you're obviously doing a mistake. Stake is the leader in global betting and you are social casinos. Bet on top sports and political events and use the promo code flagrant for your welcome bonus. Now, we could get back to the show,

but right now I think we're kinda like moving and grooving talking about politics, even though we should get right back to the show. But there is a little fun little political talk that we could have right now. Come on. You just like to see me get cooked in the comments. I don't like that.

That's what you are. He knows what he wants. I'm gonna be honest with you. The amount of engagement. I was shocked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was shocked. And you lean in every single fucking week.

You try to piss them off. Whatever they're upset, you dress like a China set. Yeah, exactly. You can't. Trump's least favorite country. Exactly. You try to rile them up in the comments. Every single day.

And you the elephant in the China shot right now. I'm about to destroy some shit. It's a bull, but I'm about to run out. It was close. It was so close. It was so close. I'm surprised I got China shop out there. All right, all right, all right, all right.

We got to get back to... China. China. All right, we got to get back to... Yeah, what? Yellow shoes? Nothing to say. I know. Whoa, whoa, whoa Nothing to say. I know. Why are you saying that? I got nothing to say.

Yellow shoes, Al? What do you think? Them butt, I'm wearing them inside. Whose side am I? Right down the middle. That's what I am. Right down the middle. Just when you think I'm one of them.

What's that? Oh, a Timbaland? A yellow shoe. A Timbaland? That's crazy. Look at one of them. What's that? Oh, a Tim? Shit. A yellow shoe. A yellow shoe. A Timbaland? Son.

That's crazy. Son. Oh. See, we gotta go back to the show. So much synergy. Why, why, what just happened? Come on. You know.

Tell me. No, you know. Too much synergy right now. Tell me. You know. Tell me. We can't, we can't, we can't tell the people. We can't tell people?

No. The camp shirt with the honeybee on it? Yeah. Yeah, with the honeybee. Why? What's happening? Can you guys tell me? I feel like I don't know what's happening.

I feel like I'm on the outside. You are, yeah, sir. You are, too. Because me and Alex have already made thousands of dollars gambling on the future of our democracy. Yeah, sir. We up. Yo, put some money up, though.

Put some money up. You put money up. I am putting money up. All right, I'll put money up. Yo, put some money up though. Put some money up. You put money up. I am putting money up. Alright, I'll put money up. Alright, bet. So we really don't want to hang with our wives today, huh? Let's get back to the show. When do you get pitched the storyline that at 39 you are finally going to wrestle

for the belt and lose. It's weird how it went. I hope this doesn't ruin it for anybody, but this is a, we've peeled the curtain back here. We don't have any four year old fans. Yeah, there's a four year old watching this. He's going to be in the comments like, hey, no, I, it really. But this is 39. they already know this happened,

this is all new. It's really, I was told I'm winning the Royal Rumble. And at the time I was rehabbing my pec, I was gonna be gone, I'd never been injured before and I had the pec injury, I'm out for a full seven, I could've come back at four, I could've come back at five. We really waited until the Royal Rumble for me to come back and try to get in the best possible shape of my career.

Real quick, you tear the pack, you still fight Seth Rollins again. Yeah. If you want to pull up a picture of him. Yeah, we'll make sure that they, you guys can put it up in the post. It's pretty gross, I apologize. But it's blue all over, it's insane.

It's a Dumbledore arm. Yes. Yes, yeah. But I think it adds to the lore. Yeah, it does. Right, it's like, this guy's actually But I think it adds to the lore. Yeah, it does. Right? It's like this guy's actually Ernie. It's not just nepotism. It's not just a last name.

He's actually Ernie of stripes. And it's a rare moment in wrestling where something real is happening in something fake. Do you know what I'm saying? To me, that's my whole story. Perhaps this is an artificial world, perhaps. But I'm real. I'm real. And this was a case of,

so many people were really cool to me about like, I can't believe it. And I feel like, truthfully, anybody who's got a competitive spirit at all would have done it. I love that people are like, this is crazy. I can't believe you did it. But I just feel like there was a sold out crowd.

There was all this interest in that PLE via Peacock that of course they had told us about, hey, we're 40% up on this hell in the cell and it's Seth. Again, someone I have such a respect for. I just, here's the part they don't know. Had somebody seen it, I made sure nobody saw it. The only person who saw it was a guy named Peaches, who's the trainer at WWE.

And Peaches, I think wasn't under the impression I was wrestling. We'll tape you up. So WWE doesn't even know that you're there? They know I tore it. They know I tore it. They didn't see it. But the visual's so raw.

The doctor who had looked at it said, he can't hurt it any worse. It's gone. He has strength in his arms. It's gone. Cause they did double check over and over. Like, is this even possible that he can do it? They went through every little,

they went to an outside doctor even, who ended up doing my surgery. Like, yeah, he's, he can wrestle. At the end of the day, they're liable. If you can't hurt anyone. If something happens, right? And, and I just, but I kept my jacket on. I kept my jacket on the whole day.

And I remember like Michael Hayes, who is a legendary producer at WWE, has been very helpful in my career, especially this latter half of it, but he asked to see it. And I started to unzip my jacket a little bit, and he goes, no, no, no, save it. Save it.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, so the first time everyone's seen it is when the jacket gets unbuttoned. but and he goes no no save it save it like yeah like yeah like no no no so the first time the first time everyone's seeing is when the jacket gets unbuttoned and at this point it's healed enough for you to fight but it still looks this bad i mean it's not healed at all like three days after so this is i have a progression of the bruising throughout it was like a tiny bruise in my armpit and then it was coming down my arm and then it just got bigger and bigger to the point where i thought wow there's a lot of blood in there. The only thing that came of the match, I was told, again, could be a Cody lie,

but it didn't come from me, was that when they opened me up on the table in Birmingham after the match, because I went and got surgery immediately after, the blood squirted up, like for a prolonged three or four seconds, not just the normal amount. Definitely Cody lie, but I love it.

That's great. I'm a huge fan of that. Blood squirted to the ceiling. It's still on the ceiling, right? The dog's room. The dog's room. The dog's room. Gallagher shit.

But yeah, that was, I wasn't not going to do it. I had to this day, I would... Fans really appreciate it. Yeah, and if they weren't on the fence, like if they were on the fence and weren't sure about me I always say like it's a pack well spent that this was what they said like yeah, no, he's cool Okay So you keep on building this trust and appreciation in the fans and in these like real moments In this thing that everybody accepts that is fake. I think one of Sam Roberts who's a fucking awesome friend of mine

I hate Sam. Yeah, I'm sure you do Yeah I think one of the Sam Roberts who's a fucking awesome friend of mine. I hate Sam. Yeah, I'm sure you do Yeah, a whole rant about my title run and he technically works for WWE. Yeah, he's trying to play that line I'm like, nah, I'm independent. No, you're not Sam So I'm a Rosenberg guy right now cuz Sam's dead to me who's Rosenberg Peter Rosenberg Peter does a radio show in New York and he also also, Sam and him do our pre-shows and our kickoff panels. Because they do have an element of like, this is their own flavor, and they've been covering wrestling. That's cute. He's a wrestling guy?

Yeah. Oh, wow. Peter Rosenberg. He's really good. Doesn't say anything mean about me. Yeah, so that makes sense. White meat, guys. Yeah. Okay, so basically, you have this situation where he says what I thought was really interesting

about wrestling is that like, we know everything in life is fake, right? We know politics is fake, people lie, whatever, but they pretend it's real. Wrestling is the thing that they admit is fake. So we don't have to feel gaslit at all. We just get to have pure enjoyment in it. And then every once in a while in it, there are these real moments. And then the audience is like way more real, way more real because it was supposed to be fake. So when you see the armpit, you see the story, finish the story, when that is said for the first time, who says it for the first time? Michael Cole. So Cole goes, he's here to finish the story.

Now all of a sudden the fans goes, holy shit. This is a real thing. He could finish the story. He could bring the belt to the Rhodes household. So now they're on board on something real within something they know is fabricated. I like fabricated, but do you see me wince every time? Yeah, I'm sorry. No. No, no. I don't mean it in the resulting way. No, no. So I never get, as a kid, that was like the,

oh, and my dad didn't smarten me up to the business. So multiple fights, as in an elementary school where the hey, Cody got into a fight, and why? Because Tommy said, you know, what his dad does for a living is the F word, and of, what his dad does for a living is the f-word. And of course, my dad would not just help that. Instead, he had a weird three strike rule, like, hey, tell him, you know, okay, next time, tell him, hey, that's how we make a living, please leave me alone. Third time, you just punch him in the nose. And he's like, always the nose. It's a really

violent thing for a kid to think about, like punching a guy in the nose. You stomp your feet when you punch him? So I'm all, yeah, wind up, big round up crossroads. It's not that when people use the word, it doesn't bother me, but for me, and I mean this in the utmost sincerity, I always tell people it's 100% real, and what I mean, to extrapolate on it, what I mean is whatever I do,

tonight in Barclays by the way, or whatever I do at any show, if I see a dad with his son, if I see a family, if I see casual fans, this is their first time, their experience is real. That's why that's always worked for me.

And like their experience is real. And yes, every now and then wrestlers get super defensive about it. You've seen so many like news interviews gone wrong. Well, I broke my neck for this. You know, like. I mean, the David Schultz one. Right, so slapping the guy with a slap.

Slaps the guy with a slap, yeah. I slapped him pretty hard too. Knocked him down. Yeah, I never get mad at it as much as it's just for me. Like maybe I'm different in our world where it's just because I'm not playing anything but myself, it just feels as real as anything else. I think one of the best things that happened to wrestling

is for the public to know that it is, what is the word, fabricated, organized, or a show. Predetermined. Because now we can submit ourselves to the fun and focus on these storylines. And the storylines are what always would drive it, in my opinion. Whereas before you could be like, oh, this is,

I mean, I have video of this. I don't even know if I can share this because my wife will be embarrassed. We were watching the Vinstock and my wife is like kind of on her phone overhearing it. And she goes, wait, it's's fake this is like two weeks ago got her got her got her weeks ago she goes wait what do you mean I go what did you think what's a guy named The Undertaker who just comes back to the world. He gets all the power and the flow into everything.

She's fighting. But I get it though, because I remember being a kid and then someone, you know, making me feel like Santa Claus isn't real that moment with wrestling. But I'm so invested that even after, I'm like, nah, some of it's real. I'm like, some of it is...

It liberates the art though. It makes it, I think, so much more special because you get to focus, instead of trying to focus on convincing people that this thing is 100% real, you get to focus on convincing them what they're feeling is real. Forget what they're seeing.

I don't care if the punch lands. When that person comes out or you hear that music for the first time or this story is actually realized That's the fucking reaction you're gonna get Shawn Michaels is really good He heads up NXT now and I'm blown away about the next generation of wrestlers all gonna be The best ever because they're being trained by Shawn Michaels But he always was of the thought that if they think that match that went on second or third wasn't

Wasn't real or if they'd feel disconnected from it, I'm gonna find something in mine that makes them think like, oh no, everything else. That wasn't, that was fabricated, that was artificial, everything else. But that, he was mad. He really, you know, like, Shawn is the master of that, and I wish more wrestlers, and again, it's a hard skill set to make,

but there's so many, if you look at Shawn's career, there's all these matches where you'll see stuff like, oh, I heard they were really having a problem with this. I heard there was a behind the scenes, no. He was that good to make you think. I mean, every, like the greatest, again, when the lie, when the fact becomes legend, print the legend, but Sean is really special at doing that, really special.

Okay, so you get this, at what point are you pitched the storyline of winning the Royal Rumble and then losing to Roman? So it was never said. It was never said you'd be winning or losing, and I think- Wait, against Roman or-

Yeah, that was, the discussion was something that, those discussions happened within days of WrestleMania. So you're constantly reacting to what the audience wants, and not by you, I mean like the writing team. Yeah, I mean, we have the, again, I don't know, like we have the greatest focus group every week. It's a literal live audience.

It's, you know, one of the things I talked with Burt about on the Set It Go Big Show was he would find that there was this parallel between pro wrestling and he'd try these jokes out and try these bits out and he'd know where they landed, what landed, he'd build through his big finish, all this. And it's very similar in terms of every week. We have them to, we want to lead them for sure, but also every now and then they'll they'll yank you like, ah, we're not into that.

That's not it. And, and it's a nice balance. They are playing the backup to you. If you're the lead singer, they're right there. It's very different from any other artistic medium that there is in terms of they, we depend on them. COVID wrestling is the worst. It's the worst.

There might've been good stuff that happened, but none of us will ever wanna go back and watch it. Nobody would. I wanna watch. It's just hard to predict what they want, what they feel. Right, you need that live audience. They're the lifeblood. And right now, WWE is in this unbelievable renaissance

where these crowds are absurd. You know, we were talking about 10,000 for All In and how special that was. Now we're dealing with every show is 10 plus. Every, you know, again, and don't take it for granted. Who knows where that's gonna end, but they're a really great metric to determine. They're the number one.

More than, you know, the guy who trained me, his name's Al Snow, I remember him telling me, he's like, you can get over with your boss and that's cool That'll get you places, but you could also get over with the people and that'll get you everywhere And I love because it's not that's honest. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I didn't have to politic or be your buddy But you know, I play the game a little but but if the people are vibing we're good. You'll be I'm gonna move forward But yeah, those discussions happen within days. So you win real rumble. Yeah, you don't know the people are vibing, we're good. You'll be I'm going to move forward. But yeah, those discussions happen within days.

So you win Real Rumble. You don't know if you're going to realize this dream, if you're going to finish this story at 39. Yeah. And I don't even mean to give this answer is going to sound like a Cody lie, but this is a true answer. We didn't really know for sure what we were doing until hours before that match. Do you talk to Roman? Does H come in and talk to you guys? That was one where, again, you call the play,

that's Triple H in terms of you lead the charge. That's not something he or I can determine. Roman or I or Mr. Heyman, that's that he is directing this film. Are you fucking heartbroken? I did everything to get here. We can give the fans what they want. You're gonna take that away from me. What are you feeling before that even?

Like when you're not sure what's gonna happen, what's that whole process? I think I went to a place in my mind and maybe I was feeling really positive. Maybe I had experienced enough heartbreak in the business to not be heartbroken again. But what it became was I truthfully told myself, and I had a really good individual step in

and speak to me about this. I told myself, great, I'm still gonna be the champion. I'm gonna be the champion for the next year because Roman had select dates and he had done the full-time schedule before, so he earned his select dates, but he's not there every week. I will be there every week.

I'm at every live event, every house show, every tour, every appearance. I will be there every week. I'm at every live event, every house show, every tour, every appearance. I'm everywhere. So I'm gonna be the champion of WWE without the title. And that became the task. And the hardest part of the task was, they care so much now. No way with the attention spans being,

will they care at 40? No way. I know you think you're wrestling him at 40, but no way can you get there. And then of course, the greatest hurdle of all hurdles, right when it does look like, no, we're going. Won the Royal Rumble again, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels. Here are back to back Rumble winners. I won it twice, pointed at Roman. We're going. This is as real as real gets. And The Rock shows up.

This is crazy. And that may be, I don't want to use the term heartbroken, but that might be the most dejected for a moment. Explain what happens when The Rock comes in. I can't believe we've jumped over getting you, building you back up after 39. Like you got to go in with Brock. They have to design a way to make people believe, no, he can go after it.

You have these legendary matches with Brock, so Brock, what gives you the rub, right? Very much so. He puts you over. And three with him, again, the F word is terrifying when discussing him, because that's like basically, if we all left this room and you stood in there,

we're like, all right, man, we're sending in a bear. See if you can just get behind the bear. Just get behind the bear. That's like what wrestling Brock was like. Just see if you can get, if you can grab him, just grab him once for 10 points. He kicked you in the stomach once that looked very... Buddy.

Did you feel... So, I like the lore of him is that he is the most, just crazy, outrageous, strong, greatest athlete he could end anybody in a moment. Yeah. I'll ruin it for some. His professionalism is so underrated. Oh, wow. He is one of, if not, the most professional and understanding of what we wanted. And he sent me some of his, he has a farm in Canada. I hope you're not mad at me for sharing this, but he sent me an entire cow worth of steaks.

And he took a picture of himself with the cow, cause he does it all. He's a real farmer. Love it. So I thought, what a legend. But yeah, no, he was the utmost professional with me. I was blessed to have been in that role. And again, like the bear conversation about, I had to find something, you know?

Like he's not giving anything easily. And that's the best guys don't give anything easily. So they put you against the meanest, baddest dude. Yeah. The audience sees you in these battles. They start to support you again. You know that you have to show out in these moments. Oh, you have to show out more than you did because now they're seeing you every,

like I said, there's a downside to seeing you every week too. Oh, that's right. You get used to you. We really, this is our end. I just, they stayed in it all the way, including winning the Royal Rumble, having gone through matches with Brock, Jey Uso and I had formed a partnership and that was the first little tease that we might go to Roman again.

And then Roman WrestleMania 40 and the next thing you know, that's when Rock showed back up and that was a match a lot of fans had wanted to see for a long time. So Rock says what? When he throws the wrench, he comes out. Well, the way we designed it, and now everyone blames me for this, but I thought I'd done the best I could. I was still gonna wrestle Roman,

but it wasn't gonna be at WrestleMania. So I was gonna do just a handoff amongst myself and Rock is revered. Who doesn't love The Rock? And it was Birmingham, Alabama, and I went out and said, hey, I am coming for that title, but not at WrestleMania. One of the guys I took counsel with,

this guy, we didn't really say he's gonna be a WrestleMania moment, but we clearly framed it up. Rocks, music, hits, the place loses their minds. Birmingham, Alabama's going bananas, and him and I had an embrace. He told me something super sweet in my ear. I'm sure he doesn't mind me sharing, even though we're not best buddies,

but he said, we're gonna make both our dads proud. Aw. And I like smiled for a brief moment. And then he stole the title from you. Well, then I left, and for some reason, I'm not blaming anyone for production, they kept filming me. And I like smiled for a brief moment. And then he stole the title from you. Well, then I left and for some reason, I'm not blaming anyone for production, they kept filming me.

Like guys, I'm not gonna be like, go get him. You know what I'm saying? Like I didn't have a face. So I got kind of like a resting bee face. Like it's just everyone judged and picked apart every, like his heart broke and he's dejected. And I guess I was, but also I didn't want them to know that. And I did this thing where gorilla position,

which is the right before you go out, the backseat position. I didn't want anyone to see me like that. So this might've been, I skipped around it and went right to my bus. Just I had told Triple H and everybody, hey, I'm just gonna be private. I don't wanna have a meltdown.

I don't wanna have a moment. That's it, They're going there. They're going there. When they film me on my bus after this documentary, cause WWE films everything, at any point a story could be taking place. When they film me, I'm sitting there with a giant bottle of Wheatley vodka.

And that's because Wheatley sponsors the bus and we do a podcast with Wheatley. It's not cause I was drinking this bottle just straight up, but the way it looks is like, all that was missing was like me eating pizza over the sink. It's just like, it was just a... It's called a Cody lie. It was a sad image. Yeah, and that's the point where...

But what does the audience do when The Rock says... Craziest thing that's ever happened. And so here's the best part about it. In my mind, I'm thinking, what can I do? Right, what can I do? Should I pursue being angry about this? What can I do? Should I just move on to the next thing?

At this point in my life, I think I just need to be a professional. It's a rare moment of maturity. Like, they've got some plan, I'm gonna go with their plan and almost defeated. Now I hate thinking of myself thinking that way. My wife is like, burn it down, you know? I love that.

But I did nothing and there's little movements started and I say little movement because it was just a social media thing at first. It was just this We Want Cody thing on social media. And then- It's a lot they've been reacting to us. So that's where it became real. The We Want Cody thing was social media. And then- I thought live they even reacted to us. So that's where it became real. Okay. The We Want Cody thing was happening online. The video of them becoming WrestleMania opponents

had the most dislikes. Those are these little metrics, but in my mind- Being Roman Reigns and The Rock, right? So they set up this match. Yeah, in my mind I thought like, oh, that, you know, digital and social is where people go to complain anyway. So, you know, maybe it's just that.

Then first night on Monday Night Raw, live in the arena there in St. Louis, is where Seth, of all people, is talking about the rock. And that was where the boos came in. People started booing. And that's where we saw the We Want Cody signs. And I mean, had this been a marketing plan, it would have been genius, but it wasn't.

Completely organic. It was a real thing provided by the fans. And it's over the course of that week that it could have really emboldened me, but I was still of the thought like, guys, as sweet as this is. Nothing we can do. There's nothing we can do, it's done.

I have to find, it's done. And then I feel comfortable sharing all this because we have the, behind the curtain WrestleMania documentary, but it is Rock and Triple H who decided, okay, we're gonna go with him. Now, we're gonna go with Cody. They want that, we're going with him. Important variable in this story, and this is where wrestling has these real moments.

A few months before that, The Rock gets named to the TKO board of directors. Yeah, he's the director of the TKO board of directors. Yeah, he's the director of the board. He's the director of the board. TKO is the company that owns WWE and UFC. So the perception of The Rock is no longer just this wrestler. He's, what is it now, the final boss. I mean, he's the boss and then he became the final boss. But he's the boss and a boss swooping in using his power position to take away the opportunity from a hardworking guy

that has truly earned it. And the people reject that. They're like, fuck, I've been in that situation where the fucking boss takes this opportunity or hires some random friend instead of me and I'm a busting my ass at this fucking company. So the people project The Rock in this new position. I wonder if The Rock is just a wrestler, how they react.

But seeing him in his power position, abusing his power, creates this empathy and like desire for you to fulfill the audience's dream. Ironically, a smart thing you didn't do at A.D.O.P. Is react at all, let them react. The audience is dreamed ironically a smart thing you didn't do So I in his you know again not the best best of buddies but in his defense I think rock has become so busy the amount of stuff his output is incredible his work ethic his output I don't think he knew so much about The current landscape he knows that company backwards and forwards.

It's a company that, I mean, the show's called SmackDown because he said that word. I mean, he had set the table for everybody, but I don't think he was always keeping an eye on the table. And I think over the course of that week, and I could be wrong again, I'm so glad that he did see, oh, okay, it's bigger. He leaned in, right? He called your fans the Cody Crybaby.

He fucking turned in. He went on Pat McAfee, called them Cody Crybaby, and then not just turned into a bad guy. A lot of people thought, oh, we're getting Hollywood Rock back, Hollywood Rock was one of his great iterations. He, no, he went a whole nother way with the final boss, which again, in our world of suspension of disbelief, is not remotely untrue.

He is the boss. He dictates the shots and yeah, I'm glad that's a byproduct of the WrestleMania 40 situation because it was a mess. That week was a mess. At that point, anything could have happened. One of those lists could have showed up back on social media again.

Anything could have happened. The world was, I didn't know. I wanted to be mature, I wanted to be different. Hey, I told you guys I'm different, but also I was in my mind getting more reckless, getting more, no, I did earn it this time, I did. And again, it's entertainment. But it just felt like, WrestleMania's a Super Bowl.

Imagine you're the team and you win every game and you're supposed to go to the Super Bowl. And it's like, no, that's the part where I just, I couldn't understand. So what is my plan? Because I can't understand this one. Because winning the title may be the second hardest thing in the business.

The hardest thing is main eventing WrestleMania. That's like getting elected into the highest thing in the business. The hardest thing is main eventing WrestleMania. That's like getting elected into the highest office in our business. Just a very big task and I had done it once and was so proud but again, greedy. I wanted number two and I wanted to finish. Number one was Empire Strikes Back. Let's get to Jedi here, you know what I'm saying?

Let's finish this and it was a tricky week. So you devised this thing where you and of all people, Seth Rollins. My guy. Have this tag team match against the Rock and Roman Reigns. And then you end up fighting Roman, of course, but the winner gets to decide what that fight is going to be. Yeah. It was if the final boss in Roman won,

it would go into bloodline rules, which just means there are no rules. No rules, which is awesome. Yes. You said this twice, you and The Rock aren't the best of friends. Do you guys have some beef behind his ears? No, I just, I think when a situation like that happens

and it's very real about, hey, the fans have made a choice and it's very real, I think there's just a lingering, a lingering tension, perhaps. And he's probably used to being, he's been universally loved for decades straight. I universally love him. I grew up- There also might be some wrestling going on here, Al. I grew up a rock band. I sincerely grew up-

Might be some storytelling happening. I grew up a rock band. I say I'm the best of buddies. What's real, what's fabricate? You never know. I sincerely grew up... Might be some storytelling happening. I grew up for Rock Band. What's real, what's fabricated? You never know. I think I'd like to be, but the reason I might say that is because I'd love to. We have yet to debrief on WrestleMania and what happened.

Because I bet you his story is a little different. I feel like there's probably people like, no, they're definitely, you're their guy. They're going with you. They're going... I think maybe some bad advice came or maybe didn't get a good knowledge of, hey, here's the current layout, here's who's sitting at that table. But I'd love that one day if we can ever have

this little debrief just to explain, because I never wanted to do anything in secret. I never wanted to do anything behind the scenes, because truth is when that happened, you start thinking, oh, I could, what if I told such and such this story? No, no no, you can't, you know, I got very defensive. It's crazy, in that moment, he was the people's champ. I must kill him.

Rock has that people's champ title too. It's very popular in the locker room, his people's, because it's his title. Well, you might need to fight for that one. You know? No. Okay, okay, so the main event happens, you guys fight, Seth plays this pivotal role.

I thought this was like great storytelling. His knee completely shredded too. No way. If you watch it in slow mo when he gets hit with a chair, have you ever had like MCL, PCL, ACL, any of that? Your knee wobbles. Yeah. So when he falls on the rope,

his knee literally wobbles horizontally. It's absurd. His knee was toast. Oh really? Yeah, that guy's the man, dude. His knee was toast. Yeah, the matches with you and him are great because, and I wonder if this happens naturally,

the more you wrestle with somebody, the better the chemistry. Yeah, it's a rep. Yeah, you're just getting reps. Yeah, the first time you wrestle with somebody, you hit each other square in the face, like, oof, buddy, how are we doing this on a regular basis? Yeah, no, it's, time you're as well somebody you hit each other square in the face like, oh buddy, how are we doing this? Yeah, no, it's

When you're in there with someone who's as good as him then you have the best dancing partner on earth Yeah, you can feel where they want to go. You know dad train him. Yeah, my dad trained Seth To help them with promos. He was their promo coach and character coach at NXT. So it was him Roman Becky Sammy Kevin Owens and they all had this name that I effing hated, which was Dusty's Kids. Cuz I'm thinking like- Weird that kid. It's weird cuz I'm his son. But yeah, no, I got over that after a while.

All of them have now been told, I hated this by the way, guys. All right guys, let's take a break for a second because sleep is very important, okay? I mean that sincerely, I know how important it is because I haven't gotten any of it in about eight and a half months, ever since my wife brought our beautiful baby girl into this world.

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That's partner.exter.com slash flagrant. Now let's get back to the show. I mean the storyline is great. Seth comes on, he stands up. Roman has to make this decision, right? Between pinning you or taking out Seth. And Roman has been so disciplined, right? This guy's been on a like a reign of terror.

It's just amazingly methodical. Wasn't always loved, like they really tried to like shove him down the fans throats initially as like a hero. And I think anytime the WWE like tries to make somebody him down the fans throats initially as like a hero and I think anytime The WWE like tries to make somebody here the fans naturally rejected. They're like, you're not gonna tell us who to like Kills it is heel unbeatable makes the decision to go hit the one fuck up in this rain the one time he gets emotional So Seth in a way creates this opportunity for you. Great storytelling.

Also a throwback to Seth had hit Roman with the chair when he left the shield. And Seth is dressed in the shield. There's all these stories braiding together. Beautiful. You do the finisher. You do the crossroads. Three times. Then you pin them. And then as the one, two, three is being said, the guy was announcing. It was Sam. Michael Cole. Yeah, it was Cole. Yeah, Cole.

Oh, yeah. Finish. Oh, yeah. Cole was ready. Story. I mean, yeah, it's like everybody's storyline came to this perfect ending in that moment. Even Cole's right. He starts this perfect ending in that moment. Even Coles, right? He starts this, finishes the story idea, and then he counts it out. There's a moment where I think it was Stephanie that's calling what happened. Samantha Ervin, the announcer.

Samantha. Her voice cracks. Yeah, she was crying. This is real within fabrication. This is the real moments you're looking for within what is orchestrated. She's like visibly or like auditorily. Oh yeah, they had to mention it

because she was shaking on her voice was shaking and she has a booming announcing voice. She's great. Yeah, I mean it was. Her announcing is awesome. Yeah, Samantha, sorry. But it was like this beautiful moment. Yeah.

What happens? I'll tell you. What is the happens? I'll tell you. What is the feeling? I'll tell you a fun thing that happened that I, I don't know if I've shared this, but is one of the most magical, again, the artificial world, what's real. One of the most magical things I've ever seen is

The Undertaker showing up to choke slam the rock in that match. Yeah, I mean, that was insane. So in the moment I'm laying in the corner and a blackout on TV isn't always a blackout in the arena. There's kind of a, your eyes adjust. So I see this man who is older now in his life and hasn't done this in a minute, roll in the ring at a speed like a wild animal.

Like roll in the ring like, oh my God. And Undertaker's huge. So just the athleticism and this roll is, and so I'm totally in the dark. And then I see him stand up. Then I feel the lights come up and now the whole world knows he's in there and they have their moment. And he chokeslams the rock and kind of as the sheriff

of WWE shows up and makes something right. But then no one sees this. He looked over at me and I think he wanted us to have a moment, but I was still reeling from this whole match. So I'm just kind of in no man's land, not really looking. I think he wanted us to have a moment, but I was still reeling from this whole match. So I'm just kind of in no man's land, not really looking. There is no like clear cut camera shot,

but he looked at me and just literally just went and winked. And as soon as he winked, I kid you not, the lights went out. And he escaped. And I thought like, he's magical. You know? He did it.

He's magical, you know? He did it. It was so unbelievable. And then after the chair shot, there's like the brief moment, I saw John. So Cena's got his back to the wall. He had been part of it. He's on the floor. He's staying small, as we say, when like you kind of, you can't get out of their arena, so you're still out there. And I got to make eye contact with him and this is his spot.

This is his spot that Roman has now. And any minute now, it could be my spot. And to have that moment with him was, I don't know what he was thinking, but in my mind, I was hoping there was a belief that I could do it. And just to, hey, I wasn't wrong about this kid. He actually went and got it.

But those were all very real moments. Charles Robinson, legendary referee, he had tears in his eyes. Again, going from Usmate to 39, where I'm looking at this dejected fan base and trying to make eye contact with as many of them as I can, basically saying, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be all right, it's gonna be cool.

Things happen, you know, doesn't always end the way we want. To be able to have that celebration and euphoria, and it was unlike any other celebration, the closest I could think of was WrestleMania 10, where all the guys came down and put bread on their shoulders. And here's, guys don't ever like helping each other out, by the way, if you ask somebody to be in a lumberjack match or do a pull apart, nobody wants to, no.

I don't wanna be part of your segment. For them to wanna be part of it, and like Randy is out there, Randy doesn't roll out of bed for anything. For him to come out and put me up on his shoulders, I like, it's all, what you're seeing is all 100% real in that moment. And that was just, I don't rate it as like,

hey, what's your top three matches? Because it wasn't, I don't think of it that way. And I've never watched it back. I've never watched it back fully. I lived it. You've never watched it? No, The Undertaker winked at me. I don't want to see it not wink at me.

I want my memory of it. Print the legend. Print the legend for sure. So I remember it that way. And it was just the wildest, greatest, like it sets the stage for WrestleMania 41 because we have to do that every time. Yeah. You're right?

It sounds unrealistic, sounds undoable, but that's why I was in Allegiant Stadium this week for the on sale and I'm thinking like, what do we do? What do we do? And I'm like, Hunter's the same way, like what do we do next? Also What do we do? And like, Hunter's the same way. Like, what do we do next? Also very different landscape because Roman is your buddy. I don't know if buddy is the right word. He's a face now.

He's a face. But is he his buddy? I got to tell him something for the first time. I got to say something to him for the first time because you'd be shocked if you came backstage, you'd be like, are they wrestling me right now? Like, is this, because we just don't have any interaction. Oh, really?

We don't, it's not, there's nothing, I'm not saying anything negative about him. I've never heard him say anything negative about me. We understand where we play at in this world, but I did get to tell him one thing before Bad Blood in Atlanta, which is to me like I didn't, it's the thing every wrestler wants to hear, which was thank you for the house. Because that's, I mean, tickets were really good for Atlanta.

We had sold out, but then we sold out again, you know, just because you open up, you open up, you open up when he was Introduced to the phrase so I got that moment. I got nothing back which Which which you know, it's a unique relationship every one. Thank you for he did the house Well, I thought the tickets were free. I was It's fine It's he's incredibly special and done so much for WWE. And when people get on to him about the limited dates

and stuff, they don't realize he was the thing. Yeah. He did all this. He's earned everything he's got right now. So sorry, what's a not limited date schedule to let people know how much y'all are really going at it? Cause I don't think people get- I'm home two days this month.

Two days. Yeah, and you're wrestling. Wrestling, because we did a full tour, so we did five matches overseas, maybe two TV matches. Wrestling far less than you're actually out on the road. If you're not doing that, you're doing a promo.

If you're not doing that, some meet and greet. If you're not doing that, it's on sale. All stuff, we used to call it the John Cena schedule. It's all stuff you just wanna go out, when you hold the North Star to the game. You want to go out and represent it the best you can. Thankfully, my wife came from the business. She gets it. She gets it.

And man, if she didn't, she gets it. Plus, whenever she wants to come on the road and everything like that. But yeah. You said you haven't spoke to Roman. You guys never squashed the beef when you were in aw Like the tactical envy comments and the tweet. Oh, that was even pre. I don't think no. We've never talked about any of that other Two conversations i've wrestled this guy at two wrestle manias two conversations one Telling him that I was coming on board and I was looking forward to it

and maybe even apologizing about that and just saying, hey, the times were what they were. That was real. Yeah. And then the other was, thank you for the house. Yeah, it feels like there's some wrestling going on. You would be shocked. I wish more people would come backstage

and see just how real some of these relationships are. Your relationship with Seth, your relationship with Roman Reigns, it's very unique environment, it really is. And I think it's the best environment because right now WWE is doing the best business that's ever done. So if this tension and this competitive,

we want it, you want it, I got whatever, is good for business, I'm about it. You hear about this with actors sometimes, like I hear this story that Meryl Streep, who plays like this giant bitch in Devil Wears Prada, really nice hand had the way the first time she meets her and then she goes, I need you to know this is the last time I'm gonna be nice to you for the next nine months.

She says she complimented her, like I think you're great, I think you're awesome, also I'm not gonna be nice to you at all, off camera, on camera, I'm barely gonna speak to you for the next nine months, just letting you know. Great movie. Yeah. Great movie, too, yeah.

No, if that's the way you go into it, that's the way you go into it. Yeah. Understood. Yeah. Hmm, that's interesting. So you have to kinda commit to the character. And I think when we say, that's why I get,

why you guys bristle, when people say it's fake, I do think it underplays the talent you guys bristle and when people say it's fake, I do think it underplays the talent you guys have as athletes. You do put your body through a lot. And also the character development and storytelling you guys have to do is insane. It's on par with any actor, comedian. Like it's really fucking impressive.

Well, he gave it the big high compliment, high brow. Yeah. I grew up in a neighborhood where, you know, as I was talking about being a little kid, where people didn't look at it that way. Yeah. They looked down. Like I always refer to my family and my neighborhood. We were the Adams family.

There was this, they thought we were unique and weird. And like, there wasn't enough wrestling fans in that neighborhood to be like, no, he's, This is awesome. These guys are cool, you know? And my dad didn't help matters. He used to go to the pool and his trunks and Ray Vans that barely fit his head.

Post dots. Yeah, he was 300 something pounds. And I remember he got on this diving board and he literally, I think, did it just to show the neighbors and did this like picture perfect dive up down, got out of the pool, went and sat there, ordered pizza. Like he always made a scene of himself. And I thought, okay, you know, mowed the grass,

Randy working in his trunks as well. Like the Adam's family thing was probably pretty accurate. We were a unique, you know, unique family. Mow the grass in his trunks is so good. So pre the generation of tanning beds, every wrestler under the sun would find an excuse to take their shirt off, whether they were in shape, not in shape, you had to be tan.

Yeah. That was like a thing. So a lot of these old school wrestlers, if there's one thing that happens outside for five minutes, you'll turn around and like, Arne Anderson's got his shirt off. Like, what are you doing? Oh, tan, the tan. Come on, man.

I was watching a lot of just clips in general and there's something I picked up on. There's the high flying acrobatic moves. Yeah. Right. And I don't know if those are as satisfying as like the moves that kind of tell a story. Sure. So you were talking about the undertaker choke slam. Yeah. To me, that is cooler than someone doing a triple backflip. And I'm trying to understand why that is. So I'm of the belief it's both. I love, especially with this- If you can do both.

If you can do both. But there's some that are too acrobatic. Well, if you just do, again, the guy who trained me, Al Snow, he said, I love fireworks. We go see fireworks once a year. It's awesome. Fireworks once, twice a year, whatever it may be. He would look at high spot wrestling, so he said, like, I love fireworks. We go see fireworks once a year. It's awesome, fireworks once, twice a year, whatever it may be.

He would look at high spot wrestling, the bigger flips, we call them high spots, the really crazy stunts, and he'd say they're fireworks. It's not that they're not good, but if there's no attachment to them, it has to be an attachment to them. So this is the big argument that wrestlers have, like a lot of young and the Gen Z,

and I have a wrestling school in Georgia, and I find this with a lot of the kids. They wanna do all the crazy stuff. And I don't wanna be the old like curmudgeon. So I don't discourage, do it, do it all. But please also like work on how you speak, work on what that character might be. Like open yourself up because if you do the moves,

make them worth it, make them worth it. If you do this really crazy move that could risk your neck and your back, and you wanna do it on every night, at least let them love you or let them hate you so that it works for you. And I feel the more linked you get to the crowd, there's a term in our business, over.

I don't think any of the young generation is over minus Roman. I think over is the can't step out of here without 50 people. Stalk cult. Yes. The rock. Quoting everything you say.

I think there's a group of people who are getting over and they're on their way. And what I've noticed, hopefully kind of being in that group is that they care enough that you can do less and get more. But when you say less is more to a 19 year old kid that they care enough that you can do less and get more. But when you say less is more to a 19 year old kid at the nightmare factory or someone who's been hustling on the Indies for 10 years, they think you mean be lazy. I don't mean mean be lazy.

I mean, fine, you're great at that flip. What's your catchphrase? Be efficient. What's your thing? What's your, do something, you know? Like promos used to be all the business was. Now it's the combination a little bit of it all, but yeah, it's tricky how you verbalize it to others.

There's an interesting thing I also noticed with some of your moves, right? The crossroads move specifically. It's, I don't even know the terminology for this, but you can reverse somebody's move into it. Yeah. Which is very exciting. Yeah. Like somebody's putting you in. Yeah. Which is very exciting. Yeah.

Like somebody's putting you in a suplex or whatever like that. The opposite reaction is the crossroads. It's the quickest path between two divergent stories, right? It's like he's about to get crushed, it's over, and he's on top, he can finish the match. Yeah, it literally is a misdirect. So I've been trying to reverse engineer a wrestler in my head. Yeah. Has WWE figured this out? Like what are the things that make a wrestler good?

Or does there always have to be some authentic organic flair? Yeah. I think recruitment is where you think authentic organic flair. Recruitment and this is all on Shawn Michaels, Triple H and Nick Khan. This is kind of making up the future of WWE. If they recruit a gymnast and they see Tiffany Stratton as a gymnast, we'll use as an example,

they see her do her athletic stuff, the gymnast element of it. Great. They can code, they try to coach the person. But one conversation can also say, oh no, there's a thing here. There's a thing. That's the most, you can't just take,

we've actually had some athletes come in who were the greatest athletes. You get D1 guys now. Yeah, but they didn't have that little thing. Personality. That Kurt Angle's the greatest example of all. Olympic gold medal. Yeah.

But what did it for Kurt Kurt and people don't realize, they don't look back, is Kurt behind the scenes in these pre-tapes and in all kinds of promo segments was one of the funniest, entertaining. I remember that. But the other thing is you knew like, hey, if I get into a fight, Kurt Angle wins the fight. He's an Olympic gold medalist.

So he's qualified. So he literally had it both. So Sean and Hunter, that's the thing. You can't coach the IT, the thing that's in there. You can't coach it. IT? Like the IT factor. The IT factor, yeah.

You can't coach it. But I think you can maybe take a chance and, okay, they've got this, they've got this, and I think they've got something. When you're creating your moves, your signature moves, are you thinking that? No, I just steal my stuff from other guys. Okay.

No, no, no, no. So like the crossroads already existed before you and- Yeah, it was called Roll the Dice. So it works for me. It was called Roll the Dice. And at the time they were trying, that's the thing. I had a lot of the mental, hey, I know the psychology. I was raised in the business.

So I had the stuff that people get later ingrained in me, but the stuff that most people get early, like a physicality to being in great shape, a good move set, I hate that term, but hey, do some cool moves. That stuff was, I didn't have any of that. So WWE was backwards in how they, hey, try this. So I remember Jamie Noble gave me Crossroads, try this.

It was always, you know, you've got a match tonight, six minutes, it's you, when it's always like moving really quick and you've got to keep up with it. But then I also have like the Mega Man rule. If I wrestled with you like 50 times, I'm going to use some of your stuff out of respect for yourself. Oh, okay. That was the other thing. What is the etiquette with that? Like, can you? Oh, I'm breaking all etiquette. Somebody eventually be gonna be like,

hey dude, please stop. Are they annoyed? Like, so you're a wrestling guy who has a signature power bomb, whatever. Do you do it within the first few minutes? Do you tell them you're gonna do it? Oh no, you gotta put it, if you're really gonna do it, you gotta put it in the greatest of spots.

You've gotta respect what you're thieving here. I'll give you the most old school, respect earned, firm don't mess with wrestler in the current locker room is Randy Orton. I do what's a Cody cutter, which is a good. Yeah, you do it off the road. But it's an RKO. Never flinched.

He was my mentor when we were in the group Legacy. He watched me grow. We always stayed in contact. I asked him about it. I think that's a big part asking about it. You see all these other cutters. There's one in NXT that's amazing and I wonder it may not be the same experience for you. You might get the old, hey, that's my thing.

That's my thing. I have feel, I feel like I've peppered it in and layered it in a way that it's done with love. Again, a gold dust uppercut, it's my brother, fair game. I can have that. Bionic Elbow, it's my father, fair game. I can have that. Bob Holly, Alabama Slam, he was my first tag partner and I kind of de facto retired him from W2B.

I can take that. It's the Mega Man, you beat the boss and you get these. There are certain things you're allowed to. There's some little things. Roman hit me with a crossroads at WrestleMania 40. You know, it's the Mega Man, you know, you beat the boss and you get these... There are certain things you're allowed to......little things. Roman hit me with a crossroads at WrestleMania 40, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. All Austin and Rock did was just each other's stuff, you know?

There's a charm in that. We've gotten away from it because you can get a little overkill with it, but... You know, when you talked about the technicality of the moves, I remember in terms of emotional attachment, the Rock would just do his elbow when he almost would do so much flair that it became a finisher. And they called it the people's elbow, which is so funny. But it's exactly what you, the Stone Cold Center is not like a technically insane move.

It's just this and this, but I'm so attached to you that I fucking love that move. The trick with the people's elbow is in the time too. You have to remember, you got an audience sitting there. They wanna take the ride. If you're moving so fast, they can't catch up. He's going to make you take, we're going to have a whole moment here. We're going to look at one another.

I'm going to throw you my elbow pad. I'm going to hit both ropes when I only need to hit one. And you're going to every step of the way be there. That's just genius. And I think that's something that actually happened for him on the fly as he was growing. Like oh they're biting on this, this will stay. Yeah, how do you learn to work the crowd like an instrument? It seems like the people who are really good at this business can, it's energy in, energy out, right? Energy out, they are working

It's energy in, energy out, right? Energy out, energy out. They are working that audience. I think you have to always remember your audience is really sophisticated. Some people think, they'll think like, and I'm not saying Monster Trucks audience are not sophisticated, but they, again, they don't think of it high brow.

So the first thing you need to know is your audience is not an idiot. The second thing that I have noticed is you have to really look at them. So I can always tell a young and like green, I guess, or naive baby face is if they go out and they're doing this and they're slapping hands that aren't there. You know what I'm saying? They're thinking I'm supposed to do that. And then you can see they're nervous. So all those things totally understandable. But you know, look at that kid.

Look at this, actually make, hey, you're in this with me. We're doing this together. We're doing this together. And it's the same when you're in the ring. When you're in the ring, you have to really make it clear, like, we're in this together. If I'm hurting, you're hurting with me. If I'm up, I want you up.

Now's the time, I'm making this comeback. I want you to get to your feet. So it's a matter of not performing in what I would call darkness. You are performing in front of thousands. If not thousands, you're performing in front of hundreds. And if you can do it in front of hundreds, you can do it in front of thousands.

Get them involved. Nothing like an independent that's house lit, where you can see everything, including the concession stand and getting them to do something. When most people were self-conscious about like, do I cheer? Do I do it? Like there's no drink minimum at this thing. Like they're coming in cold.

So that's the thing you have to really look at. And that's something that has worked for me that I got from my brother, is this is not for the cameras as much as this is for everybody in this place. Really play the crowd. Cheapest seat. I've been able to do this thing lately.

Nobody stopped me. Hopefully nobody stops me. I always at the beginning of an interview will say, hey, we got a lot of people in here. If you're up there, say hi to the people down here. If you're down here, say hi to the people up there. Let them know, I am not doing this just for the camera. Yeah. It's not COVID wrestling.

This is for us. Here tonight, we're gonna have a very good time. Or on those nights, it might be a bad time too. But I need you to feel something when you leave here. In the heat of the battle, right? The dance, how much is communicated? Because there are certain things that are like, I'm gonna reverse this and then you're gonna do this.

That can't just be improv'd on the fly. There has to be some choreography right again very uh behind the scenes sorry my bad so the what I do wrong there no you're fine amongst the battle no the dance because like if you're a killer dancer and I stand up and I take your hand and I put my hand on your waist and you're a killer dancer, I don't have to discuss much with you. Yeah, if I can move you. I can move you. I know also what you do. If you've been at this long enough, it's important that I know what my opponent does.

He knows what I do. When you are really young, and, or if you're wrestling someone, that might be more of an A to Z. This is it, this is next, this is that. But something in our business that's lost, and it's really hard to pick up those who are good at it. There's a lot of communication in there that no one ever sees.

I don't see, yeah. Like, do you speak carny at all? Do you know about carny? No, no, what's this? So carny is how I talk almost in general. You know how Snoop talks for shizzle? Yeah. Carny, to that, like, that, when Snoop started doing that,

I thought like, does he know wrestling? Because that's a thing that's a lost art in wrestling. What's carny? Carny is how you communicate like, disuck. You know, exactly. It's these little things that can be, can be pointed out as perhaps trash talk. Jim Ross always on Commodore used to be like, he's talking a lot of trash in there. It's probably somebody explaining where we need to go, what we need to do.

But the masters at it are just, you don't know how they do the trick. Whether it's hair in the face, whether it's through the referee, whether it's physical, again, you know, forgive me for giving some of industry secrets away, but if ever this, this means a bazillion things. This means a bazillion things. Like if you get the Iggy, it might mean I'm okay. That might mean reversing.

The Iggy, this is the Iggy? Iggy, that's the Iggy, yeah, the Iggy. So the Iggy also is interchangeable though. So you gotta really know what's going on, otherwise you, like, you know, have a big table bump or whatever. You gotta know what it means in context. Everything's in context. Has somebody ever said something to you

that genuinely made you laugh, but in a serious moment, and you had to hold it together? On screen? Oh, it happens all the time. Like what? There's a really famous moment where Kofi Kingston, who was not Jamaican, he was from

Boston. They knew it was hard for him. He's doing this Jamaican character and the accent. They knew it was hard. So they gave him this out where they were going to be like, hey, he was going to say, like, listen, guys, I'm not Jamaican, I'm from Boston Boston because I think we're all part of one team and Triple H was leading this promo. But they have this moment where I'm just behind him and you can see I'm really struggling,

really struggling to keep it in because years of him doing every appearance. Do you have it? Yeah, like every appearance. Yeah, but Kofi Kingston, it was a hell of a moment there, for sure. Jamaican Me Crazy was the whole, yeah, but people bring it up. Whatever, I'm just kind of leering around the back,

just trying my hardest, but I think I blow a whole promo line because I'm caught in the moment of what we're doing. But it's, people think like, oh, they can't laugh or they can't break character. If you're out there with another good guy, you can do whatever the hell you want. You know what I'm saying? Like you can, like we're friends.

We're, you know, like it's okay to have these moments, but it happens a lot. Sami Zayn is probably the easiest to do it to people. Wait, why? Sami Zayn, when he was part of the bloodline. And get on the same page, because if we don't, it's gonna be bad news for all of us. I mean, any questions?

I got a question. Matter of fact, I got a problem. Aren't you supposed to be Jamaican? What happened to your accent? Oh! Yeah! He did it. He did it.

He did it. Yeah, I just, I, I, I, I had a, I think I'm supposed to chime in, and I'm completely, oh my God, it's happening. Cause I was on appearances with Kofi where he'd be like, ah, I'll see it eventually. Like he was trying to do it and you could tell he's like,

fuck, this is brutal. But Sammy Zane is the most famous with bloodline stuff because he could make those guys laugh. Like Jimmy and Jay and even Roman, he could make them laugh. Why, what would he do? Well, at the time he was part of the, what was Sammy's name, the honorary Ouse. He's not a Samoan, he's not part of the bloodline,

but they made him part of the group. And he committed fully to that. So talking like Samoan and stuff? Yeah, here's this white kid from Montreal. Dude, that's wild. Yeah, he's not a Samoan, and the way he'd be like, that's right, Ouse, and you could just see, it was real, it went from being this funny backstage bit

to no, they ran with it, it became a whole TV. He really loved it and loved them, which is why it hurts so bad when Roman turns on him. Like, it hurts, because he really did love this interaction, but Sammy can pop a lot of people. All the Usos can pop a lot of people, too. So there's an infamous moment where I couldn't keep it together. I had a press conference because of J. Uso.

It would be widely considered the most unprofessional moment of my career. Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry, is this the bloodline moment? Sammy, yeah, Sammy's right there. Yeah. I want to get back to this. I think he's just too funny. He's just not himself right now. That's it. OK, he's just not lately. He just hasn't been very oocy. Yeah, Jimmy's back there. He's. Honorary is, man.

So Sammy's trying to crack him up. He likes it. But it's also like he... It's character appropriate. Again, the Meryl Streep thing. Sammy's the type that he's going in on this. Yeah. Honorary.

I mean, there was a picture of all of them from high school because they all grew up together and somebody just Photoshopped Sammy into it. And like as a high schooler, clearly not a picture of all of them from high school because they all grew up together and somebody just photoshopped Sammy into it And like as a high schooler you clearly not a member of the family clearly. Yeah, he was really good at it Yeah, my most unprofessional is the press conference There might have been other factors involved with the press conference. Wait, why would he like yelled at you? There's something The press conference We had won the tag titles of this pay-per-view called Fastlane, me and Jey Uso, which was super fun and we got to be opening match.

When you're opening match, you really try to like just steal that show and bang, just start that thing with a bang. And we had this match and then we had a lot of time and I did not know, it's very important that everyone knows, I did not know I was needed for the press conference. So WWE after these PLEs, this press conferences, So we went on my bus and in the safety of my bus, there might've been several libations passed around. And then PA, Tommy, God bless him, comes on the bus because you guys are gonna be first up at the press.

And at that point I still was like, yeah, I got this. Yeah, great. And then I had to let the press corps know who we had there. I think it was Indianapolis. I had to let them know, like, sorry guys, we had kind of a night here because it's just a disaster. Yeah, this one. Yeah, it's so bad.

So, you know, now that she is here, I think the elephant in the room is sorry. You've had the opportunity to... I'm thinking of you pull this global full disclosure. Yeah We did I might add a libation or two on the place maybe but that said I Was very excited I'm trying to pull it together. Oh, it gets worse. The whole thing falls a bit There's a bunch of barking that goes on at one point You know saying you know we keep it lit. Yeah

appreciate it I am the question is ble a year away from me. I tried really hard guys. I did. I did. This is a rare, like modern W to be so different than how it used to be. I thought, okay, not our best look. We obviously didn't say anything stupid and Jay is the sweetest and like we didn't know we had the press conference. I didn't think like, I thought maybe we would be chastised and I wanted to make sure like hey okay I understood if there's some trouble but instead they just decided to put the whole thing up on YouTube the next day. This is great you know and I thought oh I'm glad I won't do it again. People people really want him and I to

I thought about it several times when we do these pressers to maybe crash Jay's press conference just to bring it back, because it was like a nice weekend update vibe to it. So yeah, but it was a great moment. How long ago was this? That was in between WrestleMania 39 and WrestleMania 40. Yeah, it seems recent, yeah. Yeah.

That's a big part of the resurgence, right? Like treating it like sports teams, like you do the post-conference, you do the walk-ins. Yeah, Lee Fitting from ESPN came in, and man, just the way he looks at and produces television, very much, I love that because I grew up always wanting, we're trying to emulate sports and we're trying to show that. So I love that he brings that immersion from the sports world. He's been a really terrific asset for WDB.

Nick Khan feels the same way. And again, these PLEs after, this is a real moment. The questions that come, they're not always, the safest questions, they can't be the safest. These are real press conferences. So it's a very different company from the one that I left initially. It's a really cool environment.

Yeah. I have a couple of random wrestling questions. Hit it. Biggest pop you ever heard that you were a part of or that you saw? Biggest pop I ever heard? Hmm, gosh, that is a, I really wanna narrow down to it.

You know what it might be? The Rumble provides some of the biggest pops ever, the Royal Rumble, because it surprises, returns, and I have been around some of the biggest pops. So I'm going to kind of put this between two. And maybe it was just how I heard it in the arena in the moment. But they were two that drove me crazy.

One was my brother coming back to fight me at the Royal Rumble, which we had not had that interaction. And I had a mustache at the time, doing a whole other level of character stuff with WWE trying to make it work. And... Not a character at all, fake about it. It's real to me.

So it wasn't near on the level that yours is. I can't grow facial hair that well, so what I did to compensate is I colored it. You colored it in. So it was like, it literally was an airport test, head scratcher, like, looked like makeup. That was an amazing moment. scratcher like look like makeup Shawn Michaels showing up to fight Randy Orton and I remember he was an all camo and he like parted the seas

That was an amazing pop. I remember hearing I think the greatest pop in all of wrestling maybe WrestleMania 40 was definitely up there but but WrestleMania 18, Rock Hogan, when Hogan hits the leg drop and Rock kicks out, it is everything you could possibly want about our business in terms of moves, do they match the moments, do the moves matter, and that, again, it's not even always, it has to be a stadium, because sometimes a stadium, the sound goes straight up. Straight up, yeah.

Yeah, you don't know, but some of the smallest buildings ever, I mean, some significant moments, the original All In, that's the one for me that I'll never forget, the original All In, wrestling a guy named Nick Aldis, who's now the general manager of SmackDown. Before we locked up, there was such a feeling about what had happened that weekend and how we had done this, that the place is shaking.

And I remember they went around the barricade because they could see everybody. Oh my gosh, you got me now. I'm on a rant. Here we go. Here's my final answer on Greatest Pop. AJ Styles and Leon France, just recently. We do old school intros. I'm champion at this point wrestling AJ Styles.

And Leon France is the camera is going up and down and AJ Styles who has been in every big match situation you possibly imagine you can see on his face we knew we were in some sort of special moment because that crowd is currently the top crowd in all of wrestling. I mean every crowd's been amazing but Lyon sound wise it sounded like they were going to bring the building down. Unbelievable. That was my favorite one I was ever in the ring for.

Wow. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, the building is shaking. It's wild, and Sam's announcing him, and the camera's about, oh, it's such a cool moment. Such a cool moment. I'm curious, you had mentioned that, like, not necessarily dashing Cody Rhodes' era,

but on the way up, that you plateaued when you had to actually switch to Stardust. Yeah. What is that plateau, why does that character plateau? And then what is the difference when Cody Rhodes comes back? What is the difference with that character and the initial character? So sometimes I think it's as easy as physical,

like your physicality. So this is gonna sound silly, but this is a vanity business. There's still, you still have to, if you're robust, for example, then what do you do to subvert the expectations? How do you use that to your advantage? Like my father was never shredded, he was a big round dude, but he had the promo.

His athleticism would be like, whoa! You were shocked that a guy that big could do that? Dusty could do that? Yeah, he knew what he used to do to his advantage. So you've gotta be, if you're trying to be on the come up, you've got to get in the best shape of your career. The guy I'm getting ready to wrestle at Crown Jewel is named Gunther.

He used to be on the independent team named Walter, and Walter was very, very, I think, I don't wanna say overweight, but he was not, not a muscle you could see on him. A big, hefty, chop a tree down, killer dude. That manifestation of his goals is right there in his physical. You can see he's gotten in the best shape of his career. He looks incredible.

He looks the part. And there's this weird online contingent that doesn't realize how important that is. We are wrestling with our shirts off. You're standing next to some of the best athletes in the world, it's okay to go to the gym. We have like what we call effort shamers. And then you'll hear fans like, you can't body shame wrestlers.

What are you talking about? We're standing there half naked and you paid hundreds of dollars to sit here. You can body shame me all you want. But kicking back, that was the thing. I wasn't in great shape. And I was in a small, I had filled the spot as being Dustin's tag partner.

We had done really well. At that point, I should have been focused on getting in the best shape of my career, having the best promo, and more importantly, I should have fought the little battles. Hey, I don't want to team with my brother today. Hey, I don't want to come out to his music. If the answer's you are, I still would have gotten better

had I fought the little battles. Instead, I let it all build up, which led to me just posting my, you know, resignation on social media. And then again, that worked for me, but I knew right in that moment a great deal of this was my fault. A great deal of it. But yeah, wrestlers, you can tell when they're in the best shape of their career, they want a great deal of it. But yeah, wrestlers, you can tell when they're in the best

shape of their career, they want it. They want it. Currently there's, literally, I love it. I know it might seem toxic and stuff, but amongst the boys and girls, everyone like, who does your diet? Who's training? Like there's a whole nother health conscious now to WWE

that I love that. Like we're trying to look our best. So that was it for me. Interesting. During the Vinstock, Undertaker talks about how many surgeries he has and how much his body's fucked up. Like how long do you think you can do this? Yes, that's my exact question coming. Oh man, that's a great question. I don't know if the answer would be different if we'd been drinking. I don't know if the answer would be different if we'd been drinking. Um, I feel like I'm 39 now. I feel like I can go full time, 100% and be the best,

be at my best and be the standard until 45. I don't know why I've like kind of put that number in my mind as I have a three-year-old daughter. I do not want her to have a dad that can't do a lot. Yeah. Or they can't, and I haven't had that problem yet. I can throw her up, I can have, I don't want her to have a dad that doesn't have

the strength and all the things she needs to pick her up, whatever it may be. I think about that a lot, but 45 I think for me, and I've also been really lucky, one surgery. The peck, I have been blessed to just, I have not been injured much, again, knock on what I hope is would. It does seem like wrestlers wrestle for a really long time.

The Rock is in his 50s probably at this point, still wrestling, Undertaker was wrestling forever, still getting in the ring, John Cena, I see him running down the ring as a 40 year old man on like three knees. Just that sprint? Yeah, yeah, just sprinting down the ring or you got too many muscles for those knees. Dude, what are you doing?

Yeah. What is it that keeps them doing it? How do they do it? Why do they do it? I mean, if you look at WrestleMania 40 when his music hits, that's the why. It's crazy. That's the why there.

That could, you hear that and that's for you. You could probably jump through the ceiling. But what is the move where he puts on his shoulders and he dumps him? Attitude adjustment. Attitude adjustment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. His hat kind of goes off almost crooked and he takes it and he fucking chucks it. Oh yeah, yeah.

Dude, he is on fire. Oh no, that's the people. He's a fed by the people type wrestler in terms of that energy, but to be smart. Then he realizes he might be balding and he's like, oh, let me just adjust all this shit right. Slug it back. I forget who, I think one of the guys, Austin Theory, might've come after the balding and John's reply,

I don't know exactly what it was, but I remember John had like just such a non-sell of it. Like, yep, great, I'm still gonna beat you. You know, like the way he approached it and had it. Like, yep, great. I'm still gonna beat you. You know, like the way he approached him. No, he's been fantastic. Yeah, John's special. I think though that's misleading. That pop can be misleading. That pop can make you think you can do everything. So the reason I say 45 is also selfish because my dad was an old man wrestler. He wrestled all the way. I mean, he was probably 60 when he had had his last match,

maybe even 65, like, and I hated seeing that. I knew people liked it. I knew he was okay, but I hated seeing him that way. I wanted to remember him differently. And Battlegrounds, the match where he hits his last bionic elbow on Dean Ambrose on the floor, John Moxley. And what people don't know about that is the reason all of it took place on the floor is because he couldn't

get up the steps that easily. And I think at that point, that's like the hardest thing to see is, you know, he knew though, I gotta call it. Like, let me go, guys, let me go. And that was one of the last big things he did with me on screen, but it was a really great gift. But because of that, I don't ever wanna overstay my welcome. I've really enjoyed being, I had the management role

with my previous company. I would say I failed at that. I didn't necessarily succeed, but I learned a lot from that failure. And with this company, with WWE, if that's something that comes up for me, would you like to be behind the scenes? It's definitely something I'm considering.

Because I had a whole run at it once before where I pretty much bombed. So at this point I know like, you know what? I think I can get this now. I think I can figure it out. Long way off though. Long way off. I wanna hang on to this as long as I can.

I just wanna ask one more thing. The story and ending the story is ultimately you getting the belt and bringing it to your father so that no one could ever take it away. That's right. Did you and your mom and your brother and the rest of the immediate family ever have a moment where you kinda honored your dad with the belt

because he couldn't be there? It's right there in the ring after WrestleMania 40. The only, I remember when Rock was like going in on Mama Rhodes and he thought it was really funny. And I remember thinking, she doesn't watch like you think she watches. She know her dad was, I mean, her husband was Dusty Rhodes. Like again, dead or in jail, she loves me.

But I don't think she knows what's happening so much. I've had to always bring her to a show to be like, look, look what's happening. She still thinks it's real. Yeah, a little, you know what I'm saying? And when that moment was happening, he's yelling at her and all that, I actually had this whole epiphany of like,

I could have had Ric Flair, who was my dad's greatest rival with me. I could have had Arne Anderson, who was my manager previously. I could have had Ric Flair who was my dad's greatest rival with me I could have had Arne Anderson who was my manager previously I could have had my brother I could have had one of these people who was really like dad and knew enough about dad that I could share with them I realized in that moment no one was more qualified than her nobody sorry but in the ring, I got to hand it to her. And that was just the best. It really, it really was the best because when you're a wrestler's wife,

oh my God, a wrestler's kid, like you go through it. And he went through it. This was a, you know, now we've got the best management. We've got really healthy company. We're checked on. I get a freaking cardio scan every three months because of WWE. My dad didn't come up in that era.

It was different, it was very different territory. It was check to check. It was driving all over the country, taking all these big risks. And she rocked with it and hung with it. And she knew the story wasn't so much about handing it to him anymore, just about us having it. Like, nah, you keep saying his name,

he trained this guy, he trained that guy, you're using pay-per-views that he named and created. His influence is still felt on this. How can it be felt in the biggest way and his youngest son winning the hardest title to win in our game? She knew, she was the most qualified for it in that moment. Fast forward to me getting my ass kicked

outside of my bus by Kevin Owens, and my mom is unaware that this has happened in the parking lot, this story has happened in the parking lot, and 10 minutes later comes out and the fans are cheering for Mama Rhodes, oblivious to what has taken place, and she's just G-ing up, slapping hands. Like she's become, it's ridiculous.

She's got her own shirt. I'm positive there's probably an action figure coming. Yellow boots. The yellow boots, F-C, go through my bag, you'll find it. Yeah. But yeah, no, she was, that was the moment for us. And I got to have a nice, very small conversation with my brother before it all happened.

And that was probably the most important conversation I had that that whole day just about like we're here we did it and the fact that we went WrestleMania back-to-back the moment where you give your mom the belt after you win it as a big mama's boy crying just even yeah yeah it's why you do everything you know oh my gosh so to like family is so right I feel like wrestlers used to, and I don't, wrestlers used to almost do this, and it was their family, you really couldn't have a family, especially in these old days where you're wrestling

eight days a week because you're doing twice Sunday and you're traveling everywhere and all that. The best thing that ever happened, and really like the thing that was missing, the best thing that ever happened for me was having my thing that was missing, the best thing that ever happened for me was having my daughter. My daughter, she doesn't need to know this, and it's not her responsibility at all,

but she made me the best wrestler I could have ever been. She made me the most responsible human being. I don't even like cursing because I have a three-year-old daughter. The moment with Rock and all that, I didn't lash out, I didn't do anything stupid, because I report back to this little kid. And also, my wife and I will roll the dice here and there,

I'm not rolling the dice with that. You know what I'm saying? And that's to me, I get to do this job because of my family. They're very much a part of it, so that was very, again, real in this world that you're not always sure what's real and what's not. Fast forward, your daughter comes to you, mom and dad both in the business,

and she says, I wanna become a wrestler. What do you say? You're gonna end up deader in jail. I think I would tell her, because I remember I went to Waffle House with my dad when I finally told him, hey, I definitely wanna pursue this. He took like four minutes to say anything to me.

And it felt like an hour. And we're driving home. And I remember all he said was, okay, if you're gonna do it, you're gonna do it to be the best. And then he said, I'll make some phone calls. And that was like the coolest thing to hear. I think I would repeat the exact same thing. I don't think we're encouraging that route.

There's so many other things you can do. There's so many other worlds. Liberty Rhodes is a great wrestler name. Liberty Rhodes? Great wrestler. Oh man, yeah, no, she also, she thinks what I do for a living is WrestleMania. That's what she thinks I do for a living because she came to watch my entrance at WrestleMania 39. That's the only part she saw.

So every weekend it's, Papa's going to WrestleMania. Yeah, sure, it's the only part she saw. So every weekend it's Papa's going to WrestleMania. Yeah, sure, it's WrestleMania every weekend. But yeah, no, if she does, then we'll cross that bridge. Brandi might have a different answer, but my family was super supportive. You tell them you're gonna be an astronaut with no education and no, yeah, we'll do it. Where's astronaut school?

Sign them up, you know, so. Cody, this has been awesome. Yeah. It is great when you, you know, when we have somebody that's gonna come on the show that we're excited to talk to and they exceed expectations. Thank you so much for sharing the story. Thank you so much.

Thank you, thank you. Thank you, hell yeah. And best of luck with everything. Thanks, man. Yeah, of course. I can't wait till you turn heel, bro. No, no, wait for me. Wait for me.

Heel, Cody. Now it's Hogan Heel turn.