Andrew Schulz's Flagrant with Akaash Singh - Draft Episode for May 21, 2025

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

YERRR – the one and only Bernie Sanders sat down with us to talk the failures of the Democratic party, Elon & corporate interest upending modern democracy, and why the system’s still rigged against the working class person. From taking on billionaires to clashing with Congress, Bernie keeps it blunt: he breaks down socialized healthcare, fixing student debt, and why he is still bitter about the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn. All that and more on this week’s episode of FLAGRANT. INDULGE. 0:00 Start and introduction to Senator Bernie Sanders 1:11 Bernie reflects on the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn and how it exposed him to politics 6:03 Bernie watched Jackie Robinson play & can still name the starting rotation 8:44 the 3 questions of REAL politics & how they apply to the US 14:31 America’s lack of care for educators 16:52 Elon’s wealth & uber capitalist rulers 20:40 Citizens United & Super PACs explained and how billionaires use it in elections 26:25 US funding Israel, speaking out against Netanyahu & AIPACs power 30:10 “Bernie Bros” origins & podcast similarities 31:35 Bernie on “Bernie Bros” & “Podcast Bros” similarities 35:40 Are Americans better off now than in 40 years ago? 39:20 Democrats failures with the status quo & Trump’s acknowledgement of the working class person 42:58 Are the Democrats also a threat to democracy? 47:30 Politicians trading stocks 49:01 Has Trump changed the American culture and dream? 56:22 is it possible to tax billionaires effectively? 1:03:45 Is college tuition and debt fixable? 1:08:10 States should provide their own health care and why they do not 1:11:14 Trump’s new bill to lower drug prices 1:17:40 Will Bernie run for President? 1:17:51 is AOC next in line? 1:19:48 Bernie’s bravery and does he have fear from powerful people? 1:21:55 how can YOU help Bernie? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up everybody? Welcome to Flagrant. Our guest today is one of the only people in politics who hasn't traded conviction for convenience and somehow he is still here. For decades he has stood in the middle of the storm unbought, unbossed, untethered saying what so many were too afraid to say, that working people deserve dignity, that health care is a right, that the system isn't broken it was built to screw you over. He has been mocked, sidelined, betrayed, and that's just by his own party. And still he shows up, not for power, not for fame, but because he actually gives a damn.

In a country drowning in cynicism, he made people believe, maybe for the first time, that someone in Washington was actually fighting for them. So please give a warm, flagrant welcome to the last honest man in politics from Brooklyn, New York, Senator Bernie Sanders. Hey. All right, let me get you out of here. That's it.

Okay. I have a question, okay? Listen, and this is probably a sensitive topic. It might be too soon, actually. It actually might be too soon. Okay, so if you don't want to answer, I totally understand. In 1958, I think you know where this is going. When Walter O'Malley. Oh God. I know, I know. This one cuts deep. When he moves the Brooklyn Dodgers to Los Angeles and he does it for corporate greed

and profits, and he doesn't care about the community that built up that team. It broke a young Brooklyn boy's heart, probably many. It seems like, and it could be a coincidence, that ever since then you've had it out for the billionaires. Is that where it all started? I'll tell you something, two things. There was a joke going around my neighborhood, Flatbush, and what it said, the three worst people in modern

history were Hitler, Stalin and Walter Romano. And not necessarily in that order. That was a joke. But you know, what I did learn, you're kind of joking about the question, but I'll tell you something. When you go up as a kid, you have a thing called the Brooklyn Dodgers. Of course. Brooklyn. Yeah. So when you're a kid, the idea that it could be moved someplace else.

It's insanity. When you're a kid, you can't, that is privately owned, run for profit and that it can be moved to California was literally beyond your comprehension, beyond my comprehension. So it was a real shock. And if you're asking me, did that have an impact on my political views? It did actually. It did, because the Dodgers were a cohesive force in Brooklyn, bringing people together, Jackie Robinson, et cetera, et cetera.

So yeah, that was, that had an impact on me. Really? So it all starts there? I don't say it all starts there, but I learned something from that. But again, I mean, you think about it, he was something so important. Yeah. There's so many people, this guy didn't give a damn. Make more money, let's go to California.

Was it as simple as that? Like there was just a big deal out there? And the Giants, for sure, there was a huge market out there in California, right? Right. Everybody, they can make more money. I think he starts baseball on the West Coast. Yeah, he and the Giants guy. That's right. That's right. And was it, I don't know. I mean, we don't have to get too much into it, but I heard Robert Moses was pushing back a lot on rebuilding

of a stadium. That could be bullshit. I know, but it doesn't matter. That raises a whole other issue, but you know, sports and professional sports and all that stuff. But, uh, yeah, it was a big deal. That's your first exposure to corporate. You know, what you're seeing today, and it's something we haven't looked at enough, it's something I want to, is it hasn't really changed. You have the, what is the function of professional sports? All of these teams are owned by billionaires. And if Bolton wasn't giving enough money, you're going to move someplace else and no matter, you know, you break the hearts of kids, nobody cares.

Can I ask you a question about that? Why is it the city puts up money for these new stadium builds and we don't get any of the equity in the team? That's very good. Well, now you're raising another question. I was mayor of Burlington and Burlington, Vermont, we'd love everybody to visit us in Vermont. And we had no professional baseball at all. I got elected way back in 81. I said, one of the things that I wanted to see if we can bring back. The Brooklyn Dodgers. That was a little bit too ambitious. That's how you silence Bernie. But could we bring professional baseball?

So we got to work on it and we ended up getting a double, I think it was a double A team, very good team in the Cincinnati Red Strats. And we were talking hard about how we can municipally own it. And we actually love it. Yeah. And we would have put public money into it. It would have been, we would have made money off of it and all that stuff. We ended up losing it on the city council, but it was an effort that we tried to make.

Anyhow, we brought the team in. It was really good for the community, but years later they left it, etc., etc. But the idea that taxpayers are putting huge sums of money... Hundreds of millions of dollars. ...their school systems are falling apart, they're putting billions of dollars, or huge sums of money, to build these huge stadiums. These guys make a fortune, and then, you know, 10 years later they move out. And there's this excuse that they all use, they're like, yeah, but we're providing jobs. It's like, yeah, so you can have a business that functions. You can't have a basketball team that functions without people working there.

And these jobs are part-time, low paying jobs, by the way. Right. So it's, yeah, this whole thing of professional sports owned by a small number of very wealthy people is something that, and what's the irony? You want to go to a Red Sox, we go to Red Sox games, you go to Yankee games. How much does it cost to take a family? If your husband, wife, two kids. $100. Yeah. You buy a Coca Cola, it costs you $5, $10, whatever it is. I mean, that's kind of crap. I mean, when I was a kid going to Ebbets Field in Brooklyn, you remember Ebbets Field? Do you know

what it was? No, no, I'm a little bit younger than you. Really? Yeah. I call myself a New Yorker. Ebbets Field was where the Dodgers were. Yes, of course. You were kidding me. Absolutely. So we used to sneak in, I guess, 60-cent, you know, sent in the bleachers. And during that period, you know, a family could go to a game. And now it's, you know, pretty hard.

And that's unfortunate. Really, there's great athletes out there. People want to see them. Yeah. Can't afford it. And also, in that time, you saw Jackie Robinson play. I did I remember yes I did. What was the energy like in the stadium watching Jackie Robinson? Remember about him when he was different Brooklyn back then. Yeah, what we used to do is hang out

After the games to see we got autographs. Hmm, and I remember him coming out He had problems with his ankle or his foot or something, he came out holding his shoes. How did you know it was Jackie Robinson? Oh, odd one. But the, I mean, you talk about impact as a kid. We used to do, this is true, I mean the Dodgers were like your family. So I can tell you today

The Dodger lineup, how's that Wow everyone here Gil Hodges in first place? No He's a great guy, very quiet guy. Later, he coached the, he managed the Mets years later. Junior Gilliam, nothing. Peewee Reese, short stuff. I know that name, I know. I think very friendly with Jaggy Robinson, right? He really took him under. Yeah, in the movie they probably played it up a little.

But he came from Kentucky. You know, he's the Southern, and at that point a lot of racism, he befriended Robinson. Third base was Billy Cox, left field was Gina Manske, center field was Duke Snyder, probably heard of Duke Snyder, right field Carl Ferrello, Roy Campanella catching, a bunch of... Now, what's my part? I can't remember what happened yesterday, but I remember that stuff from a long time ago because it was an integral part of your life. And what you remember, all right, the Dodgers are two games out of first place. Preachero is pitching, Robinson is batting, 3-0-8 if he gets two hits. We knew what the averages were.

You learned arithmetic. Through baseball. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I could, as a kid, most of the kids on the block could tell you how many games the pitchers had won, who they were playing. I think now we call that autism. Okay, Senator Sanders, we've got a very interesting situation, especially this last election. You've spoken about it a lot, where it's like a lot of unions decide to not endorse the

Democratic Party. Some even endorse the Republican Party. If the Democratic Party cannot win the votes of union workers, who are they for? Good. Okay. All right, let's take a deep breath. You ready? Okay, I'm ready. All right. Let's take a deep breath. You ready?

Okay, I'm ready. All right. Here we go. Is it a fair question? Yeah, it is a very fair question. All right. Politics, you know, what politics, how politics is conveyed in the media is, you know, who's running for office, what Donald Trump said and all that stuff.

And that's all important. But if you take a deep breath and you think about real politics, serious politics, what's it about? It's about three things, it seems to me. Number one, where are we as a country today? And that seems like a simple question, and it's not a simple question. Okay, how did we get to where we are? And equally important, where do we want to go in the future?

Reasonable questions? Absolutely. All right, Andrew, where are we today? We're in New York City, New York. What do you mean, where are we politically? No, where are we as a nation? Oh, um. What are the things that we should be looking at? I asked you, how are we doing as a nation? What if they were struggling financially? Good, that's right. Quality of life. That's exactly right. And I think that there, we are dissolution with the institutions that should be supporting

and protecting us. Excellent. All right. So that's right. All that's right. So start off with, in one sense, we are the richest country in the history of the world, right? We have enormous wealth.

Yep. Does that wealth apply to the vast majority of the people? Absolutely not. No. So unbelievably, and nobody talks about this, you ask me, we started off on the Democratic Party, the first thing you got to do is be honest with people and say, look, this is where we're at. We can blame whatever you want, but this is where we're at.

We're here. All right. So you're living in a country where 60%, let me underline that, 60% of people live paycheck to paycheck. Got it? I grew up in a family people live paycheck to paycheck. Got it? I grew up in a family that lived paycheck to paycheck. All right? Where paycheck to paycheck is living under enormous stress.

How am I gonna pay the rent? What happens if my landlord raises my rent? What happens if my kid gets sick and I can't afford to take him to the doctor? You know, what happens if my car breaks down? You know that significant numbers of people in this country, you have money, you don't think about it. But if you don't have any money and your car breaks down, you know that significant numbers of people in this country, you have money you don't think about it, but if you don't have any money and your car breaks down and it's a thousand dollar bill to get it fixed and you can't afford it, you tell

me what happens. Yep. All right. Bottom line is you've got millions and millions of people, working class people, lower income people struggling to put food on the table. Okay, that is the first profound reality. And the question we've got to ask is why is that in the richest country on earth? All right, that's number one. Number two, you have a healthcare system. How's that healthcare? You tell me, got a great healthcare system in

America? Well, what do you think? I mean, if you can afford it, it's pretty good. That's right. Yeah, I think that's a better way to look afford it, it's pretty good. That's right. Yeah, I think that's a better way to look at it. That's exactly right. Yeah. All right. If you got the money, you got the best healthcare system in the world. Yeah.

But most people don't. How many nations do not guarantee healthcare to all people as a human right? Do you guys know? How many? One major country. You live in it. Hmm. So here's the insanity.

We are spending twice as much per person on healthcare as most of the European countries. Guarantee free healthcare, not to correct you, but we won't refuse care if you need it. Oh wait, we will. That's a little bit more subtle than that. Yeah, all right, let's say you have a $10,000 deductible, okay? Not unusual. Yeah.

Okay. You get sick. What do you do when you don't have any money? You go to the doctor? I go to the emergency room. I say, I'm sick. Yeah, but you go to the emergency room, but you're not like, it's not an emergency. They'll say, I'm just a little bit of sick.

I just avoid it. That starts to fester. It gets worse. You've got it. And that actually probably causes more strain. It does. You know what else it results in? The study from Yale was that 68,000 people a year die precisely.

You go talk to the doctor. Just pushing off illness. Next time you go to a doctor, say, are people coming into your office much sicker than they should be? Yeah. And the answer is yes, they are. And that's just avoiding co-pays, avoiding... Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough. So people do die by the large numbers. What about our educational system? Psychologists tell us that zero through four, most important years of emotional and intellectual development. Makes sense, right? Yeah.

Okay. So we must have a great childcare system, right? Because we love our kids, we nurture our kids, we pay childcare professionals. Really, we appreciate them and respect them. We pay childcare workers McDonald's wages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's shocking. It's also shocking how much competition there is to get your kid into a favorable preschool.

Right. You have to start lobbying these preschools. At one year, my daughter is 15 months, and already now you're like. He's like a pharma company to get his kid in there. Exactly, like you're kind of walking in, you're meeting people, they're exchanging pleasantries and it's all under this guise of I hope they accept my kid. Right, because you have a massive shortage, yeah, and if people don't have any money it is really difficult and so I don't know what it

costs here in New York City, you know in Vermont costs 15, 20 thousand dollars. So you know just imagine you have two kids, forget it. That in New York City, you know, in Vermont costs $15,000, $20,000. So, you know, just imagine you have two kids, forget it. That's right. But again, take a deep breath and say, okay, if we as a nation understand that that's the future of America, we want the best. You would say, okay, we're going to have really great teachers for them. We'll treat these teachers with respect, pay them well, they're doing really important

work. Taking care of your daughter is important stuff. Okay? We don't. Public schools, I was talking to a principal in Vermont, in the southern Vermont, they're starting teachers off at $32,000 a year. So kids, young people graduate school in debt. We're not getting the best and the brightest people. Do we

respect, you tell me, do we respect education in this country? No, we don't really. What do you mean by respect? Like that we say man you're gonna be a teacher. Educators, I don't think educators get close to enough respect. We give them a lot of platitudes. We don't treat them with respect. We don't feel the same way as if they're like some finance bro or something like that. Exactly. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to that point, take a look at it. Harvard College, one of the best colleges in America, something like 5% of the graduates

will go into education and they're not going into public education. Of course, 50% will go to Wall Street. They'll go to consulting. You make a great point though. If college loans are so expensive, they don't even have a choice to go to consulting. You make a great point though if college loans are so expensive they don't even have a choice to go into it. Exactly. So is there is there some sort of system built in where like if you choose to go into education that there's a way that the loan will be forgiven? Something like that.

Yeah, there are small programs. They have something like that. But that's a good idea. And again I'm not making this up I'm sure there was some system like that. But I imagine like, maybe back in your day, now, that there was a version where like, highly educated, not highly educated in terms of a master's program, but like people that went to elite universities before they went and got their master's or their doctorate spent some time educating. Was that commonplace? I'm not sure. I don't recall that. But like if there was a way to incentivize that, that might be... Right, of course. That's right. But what we have to do, to give you an example, and what also bothers me is we don't look at what goes on around the rest of the world. You know, we kind of think that we're an island unto itself. You know, what we should be doing is what is working around the rest of the world. So you take a country like Finland, to be a teacher is a big deal in Finland.

Wow, you're a teacher. It's like being a doctor in this country. You know, people respect them, they're well paid, they have a lot of autonomy, etc. But all that I'm saying here is that if you look at the fundamental institutions in America, healthcare, education, childcare, distribution of wealth in America, we are not doing well. And it's important that we acknowledge that. So I mean, nobody, you talk about your very kind introductions and talking about things that others don't talk about. How many people will talk about

the reality that Elon Musk himself owns more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households? Is that a moral issue? Are we comfortable with that? It's a simple question. And there are some people who say, hey, yeah, that's okay. It's a dog-eat-dog world. Elon's a brilliant guy. It's a simple question and there are some people say hey yeah that's okay it's a doggy dog world, Elon's a brilliant guy, he's a hard-working guy, other billionaires start their own companies, they're really bold and brave, fine they deserve it and if you are trying to get by on $40,000 yeah well tough crap. How do you think Elon feels about it? I don't know him, I've only talked to him many years ago so I don't know him personally but I'll tell you what I do think. I think there is a new breed of uber capitalists out there who really believe, and this is,

and they write about this as well, who really believe that they are superior human beings. You know what I'm telling you? This is the quote unquote high IQ guys who say, look, we work hard, we're smart, we've started these businesses. So the victor go the spoils. Not only that, I think, that's yes. It's a doggy dog world, I made it, you didn't make it,

hey man, that's the way life goes. It's deeper than that. You have some writing on the far right, which really diminishes democracy and that really the smart and the wealthy and the powerful have the right to rule. So this is not just, oh, I want a tax break. There's nothing new about that. This is, we have the right. It's the divine, you know, it used to be the divine rights of kings. Manifest destiny. we have the right. It's the divine, you know used to be the divine rights of king

Destiny exactly. Yes. All right back in the 19th century the 1850s You know, I am the king God made my family. Yeah king and sorry you're starving to death But that's the way life goes. God told me my family rules There was some there's something about this It's just quite interesting that I've seen lately and it's actually not lately. There is a trend with the ultra wealthy, which is upon their death, a lot of them have decided to give away their money, right? Some of their money. Or some, some, okay. Some of the most prolific, right? And or as they get closer to death, they're like, our goal is to give away all our money. Okay, which Which seems to tell me that they think that there is an issue with them having all that money

If they truly felt entitled to it like it seems to me It's an admission that they agree with you They're like it's kind of wrong that we should just keep all this in our family We should probably not have it now. They're not it's almost's almost like Benjamin Franklin freeing his slaves on his death. He's like, this is wrong, but I don't want to leave it until I might need some shit and my back hurts. But what do I do? So when you see billionaires do that, right, or this elite class that you're talking about,

do that, is there a part of you that goes, you're getting it. Why don't you do that? Maybe four years earlier? No, okay look, I just I Mean if they're these guys are very competitive. Yeah, it's not they're very innovative hard working and I really think it's it and very competitive and I think they want it all I I really do. And I think what is, if you stop for a moment, and I hope we can talk a little bit about

a corrupt campaign finance system. Please. Yes. All right. Getting back to the Democrats and the Republicans and all that stuff. Understand, I mean, I'm in the middle of it. I work in Washington, D.C. So you're just using Musk again as an example.

He's only one. I don't mean to pick on Mr. Musk, but the guy contributes because of a broken and corrupt campaign finance system, which as a result of Citizens United Supreme Court decision, if you're familiar with that, allows billionaires to start super PACs. Can you really quickly just tell the audience exactly what it is? Because I feel like we hear these words like Citizens United and a lot of people like we just- And super PACs. Yes, we just kind of pretend that we know what it is. Okay. But

we have the first amendment that says your freedom of speech. Okay. So wealthy individuals in a case called citizens united, I don't remember all the details, basically said, look, we had at that point, citizens united, I think is 15, 20 years,'t remember all the details, basically said, look, we had at that point, Citizens United, I think is 15, 20 years, that decision from the Supreme Court, Supreme Court decision. So people go into the court and say, look, I have a First Amendment right to tell the people of America how I feel about an issue or a candidate. I don't like Andrew and I want to spend 20 million dollars on television ads

Telling people what a jerk he is. Okay making me feel like Jamal Bowman All right. That's another story And The three goes to snow we have campaign finance this campaign finance Law which limits the amount of money you can spend on a campaign. So there's already law in place There's a lot of legislation said you cannot do that campaign. So there's already law in place. There's already law in place. There's already legislation that you cannot do. That's what Citizens United did. It said the Supreme Court ruled that billionaires, that advertising is freedom of speech, and

you can't limit my speech. So if I want to spend $100 million on TV ads, I have the right to do it. They say, you're right. So the issue is democracy versus billionaires being able to spend unlimited sums of money. Supreme Court went with that. And then the form it took was what's called a super PAC. You saw the organization Americans for Freedom, okay?

And billionaires can put as much money as they want into that. That organization then runs ads on television. It does political stuff. That's what it's about. So bottom line though, most importantly, is if you are a billionaire, you can put as much money as you want into a super PAC.

And in Musk's case, he spent $270 million to help Donald Trump get elected president. Do Democrats have billionaires putting money into suit packs? Absolutely. All right. What does that mean in real life? This is what it means. Right now we're dealing with a bill called the reconciliation bill. It's a fancy Washington term for a very big bill, which will have a lot of stuff in it. In any case, if a Republican stands up and says, you know what, in the House of Representatives, I don't like this bill because it's giving tax breaks to very wealthy people and it's going to cut Medicaid and cut nutrition programs.

It's a bad bill. What do you think happens the day after that Republican stands up and says he opposes it? Those super PACs organize and they primary out those politicians. You got it. Exactly. Now, and how effective is that? It is enormously effective. If you have, sure. Right now, you're Republican. Yeah. You got it. Exactly. Now, and how effective is that? It is enormously effective. If you have...

Sure. Right now, you're Republican. Yeah. You got to... Wait, what? I don't mean you. I'm being in general. I'm gonna go viral.

All right. So you have two elements. Trump is enormously popular within the Republican base. Yeah. Elon Musk has unlimited sums of money. Right? Double whammy. Double whammy. So it is very hard for any Republican to sustain that. To stand up and authentically speak their mind. Alright guys, let's take a break for a second talking about these billionaires. You know, let's find a way where we can get invested in the system that's made them incredibly wealthy. You don't need

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government to do the horrible things that are going on in Gaza right now, as you may know, as we speak, it's horrible. Absolutely. Children are starving. Absolutely. Malnutrition, growing and all that stuff. All right. I introduced legislation to say we're going to block the sale of certain military weaponry to Israel

I got 15 Democrats to support me. I got zero Republicans Why do you think more Democrats didn't support me? Because the Democrats support me they will have to take on a pack. You mentioned Jamal Baldwin Yeah, that's what you're talking about. They spoke that what they spend like 15 or 20 million to get him out of there This is up in Westchester too. You got it? Cori Bush in Missouri, St. Louis, was defeated. A woman in the state of Washington, Pramila Jayapal, sister ran.

So if you want to speak out against that in Yahoo's government and oppose military sales, APEC, which is also funded by billionaires who support both Democrats and Republicans. So how can they do this effectively? How can they sway a vote if the people don't support the idea? You know how you do it? This is rather amazing. Great question.

You don't talk about the issue. Oh, you make that person so radioactive. They went after Bush. I was up in Westchester. Now you're undermining the democratic process. I was up in Westchester campaigning for Bowman. And I supported Cori Bush as well. The best of my knowledge, and I'm 99% sure I'm right, they didn't say one word about

Israel. The argument was, he's a bad Democrat, or whatever the usual negative advertising. Didn't talk about Israel. The argument was he's a bad Democrat or whatever the usual negative advertising. Didn't talk about Israel. So this is quite interesting because if a group, like if a super PAC was honest about what they were raising against, for example, they spent that 20 million specifically defending their position on Israel, I wonder if we would be more amenable to that because that is the issue at hand, instead of using funding to make this person radioactive, which they might not exactly be.

It's duplicitous. It is duplicitous. You're undermining the people and that's where you remove, wow. That's a very good point. All right. I mean, I think they should not have unlimited amounts of money. But your own point is, hey, if that's what your goal is, be honest about it. And I say this with you because you raise money not from a few billionaires,

but like you guys raise, what is it, Sunrise and then Democrat Justice or Democracy Justice. There are these groups, they're a little different than super PACs, but they are raising money on a grassroots level. But you are being honest about what you're raising money for. Exactly. You're right. So your point is right. If somebody says, look, I love Nyanu. I think they're doing a good job. You oppose him. And I'm going to oppose you for that reason. Yes.

Let's be honest about it. Exactly. But you know what? I think one of the reasons they don't do that, you know why? Because it wouldn't be supported. That's right. So is there any solution beyond getting Citizens United overturned by another citizen?

That's a great question, man. Thank you. You're asking really good questions. We'll work on that right now. And here is, without going too much into the weeds, we need to end Citizens United. That's not going to happen tomorrow. But what you can do is within the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, you can have rules that says

you want to be the candidate of the Democratic Party. Well, guess what? You tell, and this is again tricky, you tell that you announce very clearly you do not want any super PACs supporting you. And by the way, if super PACs support you for every dollar they put in, we're going to put another dollar in supporting you. There are things you can do. We're gonna run ads. We're gonna offset it. We're gonna... Oh, I'm sorry. I have to ask this. I'm sorry, I hate to interrupt you. We have a question we want to ask about what happened to you in 2016 with this Bernie Bros movement where your followers are seeing they have a racism problem, a massaging problem. Do you think that's a super PAC thing behind that? No, it was the Democratic

establishment. Oh, wow. Okay. You know, that was just, they were sitting there, we had a lot of young people, we had people of color, and they create this kind of myth with the help of the corporate media and all that stuff. You know, what's kind of interesting to that note is during this election, the podcast space, which the Democrats largely avoided, they feel had some influence in the election and they started to label us the podcast bros and said that we were sexist and we were racist and bigoted. It's almost like it's the exact same strategy to get you

out of there. Yeah that's what the liberal elite China does. They run away, look, getting, again, I would hope that everybody who's watching the program is that we as a nation have got to end all forms of bigotry, right? Yes. That I start off as a basic assumption. Unless it's to your close friends, right? Whether it's racism, or sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, whatever it is. But, and you know, liberal Democrats talk about that all the time.

And then you get to what we call identity politics. You're black, you're wonderful, you're tremendous, you're gay, you're the greatest human being on earth. And rather than saying, what do you stand for? Exactly. You're gay, that's fine, who cares? What do you stand for? You know, is every gay person brilliant and wonderful and great? No, of course not, that's fine, who cares? Yeah. What do you stand for? Yeah.

You know, is every gay person brilliant and wonderful and great? No, of course not. Everybody's human being. Yeah. So the issue is what you stand for, which gets you back to what we discussed earlier, class politics in the sense of which side are you on? Are you going to stand with working families? Are you going to raise the minimum wage to a living wage?

Or not? Are you gonna fight to guarantee healthcare to all people or not? Are you gonna demand that the wealthiest people start paying their fair share of taxes or not? Those are the issues and no one cares what color you are, gender is, et cetera, et cetera. I'm sorry, I do feel like vowing to stop taking

super PAC money is a great first step, but also being an honest politician. You put up a bill to stop the sale of weapons to Israel, and there's no amount of money APEC can spend to not get you reelected. And I feel if we had more honest politicians than— Courageous ones. Yeah. You're right.

This is a very interesting—this is a good discussion. Why are you shocked? They're asking questions that are not often there ask this episode has been promoted by Walter O'Malley's It's a painful issue I mean because I deal with every day in Washington This is the year running for office. If you in your heart understand what's going on in Gaza right now, and again, it's almost painful to talk about it, the United States is complicit in the starvation of children as we speak right this moment, mass malnutrition, etc.

And you say, that's wrong, man. as we speak right this moment, mass malnutrition, et cetera. And you say, that's wrong, man. And I'm not gonna give Netanyahu another nickel, but I know that the day I say that, APEC is gonna pour a huge amount of money. What's the choice you have? The choice you say you have is, okay, they're gonna throw a lot of money at me,

but I'm gonna make this a major campaign issue. I ain't gonna run away from it. What do we stand for as a nation? And I'll tell you something, getting back to the Democratic Party, what the Democratic established from people was like, well, Gaza, yeah, it's an issue out there, but it's not the main issue,

it's not the pocketbook issues, you know, more important, healthcare is more important. But you know what, I'll tell you this, this is my own view, is what people have a sense, consciously and unconsciously, if you are turning your back on slaughtering children in Gaza, why the hell am I gonna trust you on anything? That's a great point. Is that a fair point?

I think it's a very fair point. I think if you turn your back on starvation in general, especially if you're complicit in it, I think that's where a lot of, at least voters feel like there is some sort of separation, and if you make them realize that there isn't, right, if we are protecting or funding or rewarding this in any way, then you are complicit. But I think voters feel like they're too derivative from it. They're like, oh, well, that's not exactly what I'm voting for. And I do think, not to undermine those other issues, but like,

I do think the, what is it, the kitchen table issues or I think those are incredibly important And I think the more that people are struggling internally in our country the less of a concern we have externally So it's it is a it is a tough balance if you make your entire campaign about Gaza that people in Whatever small area that you represent will go. Hey listen, that's horrible. It's happening over here We're struggling too. So don't forget about us. You got it. You got it. Right. So how do you balance those two? Well, that's what politics is about. I mean, you may feel like you've done it well. I feel like you talk way more about internal issues than external ones. I do. And the, you know, Gaza then becomes a moral issue that you cannot run away from.

But at the end of the day, you know, we have to ask ourselves, why are we are where we are? And it's a funny thing, I was talking to my staff when we were driving in today and reviewing there was a, I think it was PEW, P-E-W, they do these studies. The Pulse? Yeah, they do things. And they asked the question, I may be a little bit wrong here, but they said they do it, and they say, are you better off today than somebody in your situation,

middle-class, whatever you are, or 40 years ago? That's the question. What do you think the answer was? This is an insane statistic. I've seen this research. They're like that people are making inflation adjusted the same way as they were making 50 years ago. I don't mean that. I don't even mean statistically. I'm going beyond that. Oh, how do you feel? Do you think somebody in your condition was living better 40 years ago. I don't mean that. I don't even mean statistically. I'm going beyond that. Are you better off than somebody? How do you feel? Do you think somebody in your condition was living better 40 years ago or are you living better today? I think the average person would say no. That's right. That's an astonishing. All right. So, all right. Let's go through the economics of

it. Then we'll go through the broader issue. Economics. this is an amazing fact. And again, it's something that people don't talk about because you've got a lot of the Republicans want to make change. It's almost always the wrong kind of change. And the Democrats want to maintain the status quo, which is unsustainable. That's what the choices that people have. All right. But sometimes if the status quo is horrible, any change looks better. And I think that's why Donald Trump is the president.

That's what I think a lot of Democrats don't understand. You've been very critical. We're lifelong, I can't speak for everybody, but I grew up in New York City, I'm a lifelong Democrat, and we were very critical of the democratic establishment. And it was through the lens of, hey, you're not addressing the concern to the people. And by doing that, we were framed in a way that I think, and we continue to be framed in a way I think it was very unfair.

Oh, you don't know nothing about being framed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a refusal. I don't feel sorry for you. I'm sorry. No, no.

No. But it's just a refusal to look in the mirror. That's exactly right. Yeah. All right, here's a fact. This is an astounding fact. Nobody looks at that. And this is the other thing.

More important than anything else is people want to say, do you know what is going on in my life? And if you don't talk about that reality, no one's going to trust you at all. Fact. But let's call people Latin X Bernie. That's right. That's the issue. All right. Over the last 52 years, I may be off a little bit here, but more or less I'm right. Over the last 52 years, there's been an explosion in technology, right? This stuff

that we're looking at did not exist. Every worker in America is more productive, correct? Absolutely. Okay. Computers, et cetera. How much have real inflation accounted for wages increased in that 52 year time? Obviously with all of that Worker productivity increasing nothing. We must be making a lot more money, right? Nothing. You're a percent zero Yeah, in fact, there's an argument a little bit less in real housing costs health care because TVs are cheaper You think that you're living a more luxurious life. Take a deep breath about that fact. What does it say? All meanwhile during that same period of time, there was a massive, according to Rand

Corporation, not a socialist organization, there was a massive transfer of wealth from the bottom 90% to the top 1%. But Bernie, surely they're paying taxes on all that new profits they're making, right? But that is getting back to this important issue, which I kind of started, you know, what is reality? So if you're the average worker out there, you're seeing people on the top getting phenomenally rich, you're no better off. And by the way, the likelihood is your kid is going to be worse off than you are, right?

That's a tough reality. Why is that? Who the hell is he even talking about? A, why is that? And B, what the hell do we do about it? And I think that was the appeal of Trump is he appeared to be talking to us. Exactly. Whereas Democrats are kind of condescending and ignoring it.

Essentially, Democrats say, status quo is working okay, we're going to tinker around the edges to make a little bit of a change here. Trump says the whole goddamn system is broken. Yeah. But he said, said, I will fix it. Well, his solutions will make it worse. But he at least acknowledged that the system is broken. Democrats often don't. They don't acknowledge it. And there's a lot of finger wagging, or at least recently. I didn't feel that when I was growing up, but at least recently there's a lot of finger wagging. And then there's almost like this detachment from working class people, which is really sad because you'll see them echo certain sentiments. They'll be like, look, like look at the Biden stock market.

And it's like, guys, 50% of Americans aren't even invested in the stock market. Like you're so detached from working class people, you don't even know the talking points to make them feel good about the economy. So how do you lie to them properly? So what happened? How do we get here with the Democrat establishment? That's a great question. Well, and the answer is that we do know. And that is during the 70s, 60s, Democrats caught on that you can raise a lot of money from wealthy people.

And that be that. So it's, we, and it gets back to the, financing and all that stuff. So you got a democratic establishment now which is funded by wealthy people. You have consultants who are really way out of touch with reality, who make a whole lot of money in campaigns. And working class is ignored. Donald Trump comes along and says,

you know, I care about you, which was a lie. So the- I don't know if that's a lie. I'd give pushback on that. I think that it has to be proven that it's a lie. All right, I'll prove it. Yes, thank you. And you're right, I could look through rose-colored glasses, but the idea, I think that when people

are struggling, anybody who goes, hey, I'm going to help you out. Like I'm sure when Obama, I remember Obama, I remember the impact of Obama. He ran on reform and he ran on hope, right? Yes. He ran on this idea of we're going to make it better for you instead of Kamala seemed to run on this idea like, Hey, it's good. We're going to keep doing the exact same thing, which is a losing strategy. You've got it. So that was her bloody console. I mean, I know Kamala. She's a friend. She's very smart.

That was what her bloody consultants told her to say. I begged them. I'm just between you and her. Why can't she push back? You're right. Look, there's no argument. This is the problem I think a lot of voters had is like, they didn't even know if it was her. We didn't even know if Biden was president. We didn't even know if these were her talking points. And we felt that over the last four elections, Democrats, we felt, that we didn't have a say on who could be president.

We talk a lot about the Republicans being autocrats and oligarchs and taking over democracy, but from the Democrat perspective, and I'm a lifelong Democrat, I felt like the Democratic Party completely removed the Democratic process from its constituents. And I think they need to have some accountability of that. No argument. I donated for you. I wanted you to like 2016. I was like, this is going to happen. This guy's going to do it. And it felt like they, it felt like they stole it from me. And I'll be honest,

it broke my heart when you, when you supported them. Look, but you have in the world that I live in, you got a choice. And I mean, a lot of people, including my wife, agree with you, but you know, you're down to a choice. Is it going to be Hillary Clinton or is it going to be Donald Trump? Not a great choice. But it ended up being him anyway, so why don't we burn it down? Well, because it's easy to say burning it down means that children are not going to have food to eat, that the schools will deteriorate, people will not have health care. I got it.

And I'm an elected official, I got to represent the people. That's fair. Then I can't turn my back on. But then could we not also say, if ostensibly there hasn't been a fair primary for the Democrats since 2008, are they not also a threat to democracy? We often hear. Fair enough. That is, that is, yeah, I'm not going to argue with that point. And that's why I'm proudly an independent. What we're trying to do now, and I will just reinforce

the point both of you made. The hatred that we felt in 2016, 2020 from the Democratic establishment, give you an example. We would do rallies and we have thousands of people, often young people, people of color coming out, working class people coming out. They were great, full of energy. And then we'd go to a Democratic party events. There'd be a few hundred people, mostly older, whiter, wealthier. And you saw the clash and they, the establishment did not want to open the door.

They hated the idea that all these people whose hands were a little bit dirty, who didn't have PhDs or weren't wealthy. Imagine walking in, it's my party, man. You ain't getting in. We will fight you in the most ruthless ways that we can. And that's the struggle. Are they going to open the door or are they prepared to lose elections literally and maintain the status quo? Go down with the Titanic.

So that is- Do you think you're forcing the door open? Because it seems like that's what's happening right now. Exactly what we are trying to do right now. In the last month, we have enlisted some, I think the latest 7,000 people who are prepared to run for office from school board to Congress. Not all of them will run, but they've shown interest. There are training programs that we're undertaking with other groups right now. And by the way, a good percentage of them don't want to run as Democrats, they want to run as independents. So do you sense from the

Democratic establishment that they're more willing to listen to people like you or are you guys just gonna have to kind of take it by force and win elections? Are they more willing to listen to me? No, they're not. But they'll take on some of your ideas for salvation. They realize they can't ignore it. Orphan lip service. Yes, they will take on the ideas, but these guys, they want to protect what they have. So your question is, you would say, look, okay. And by the way, Joe Biden, to his credit, I know everyone beats up on Biden, but what Biden did, unlike Hillary Clinton did, is he and his people saw that we had a movement. And what he did is was prepared to put together task forces.

We sat down with their people and we brought people like Alexandria, Ocasio-Cortez and some of the strongest, we are sit down with, with, you know, establish and come up with a program. A lot of what went into the American rescue plan, which got us out of the COVID pandemic economically pretty well and some other stuff. So the Biden people were more open to sitting down, understanding that we represented millions of people than other people in the past or are right now. I feel like most politicians are swayed by money and lobbyists and that like, I wouldn't say dictates, but it definitely influences their decisions.

You feel like one of the last honest politicians. Can you tell me what other politicians have the Bernie stamp of approval that they're like honest? Yeah, who's that bought? Oh, there are a number of people. Look, one of the successes that we've had that doesn't get a lot of attention is in the House of Representatives now, there are dozens and dozens of young, often people of color, often women who are there. I mean, Alexandria is maybe the best known, but Pramila Jayapal from Washington State,

Greg Kazaa from Texas, Mark Buchan from Wisconsin, there are many of them, and they're doing a great job, and they don't take corporate packed money, and they stand up for the working class. By the way, guys, this episode has also been brought to you by Stake. Stake is the leader in global betting in US social casinos. Bet on top sports and political events and use the promo code flagrant for your welcome

bonus. We know we got the NBA playoffs cooking right now. You know that we're going to have some elections coming up. If you want to get busy and get some skin in the game, you know where to do it. Stake has got your back. Remember, use that promo code flagrant for that welcome bonus. Now let's get back to the show. Another form of, I think, corruption that many Americans see within both Democrats and

Republicans is this idea of the stock trading. And they see that as kind of like another way to take some money off the top. And people have talked about Nancy Pelosi and her husband, for example, but I think it happens across the aisle. What is your take on that issue? And is there a way to curb that? Or is it? I don't own any stocks, so it's not my thing to follow it. I'm not sure that that has, you know, if the implication is that these members of Congress are aware what's going to happen tomorrow and are putting their stock, I'm not sure how, I'm sure it happens. I don't know how prevalent it is. But what was interesting, by the way, on that subject, as you may recall, just was in a month ago where Donald Trump said something like, today is a great day to invest in all the changes and

views on the tariffs. Do I think insiders knew something about that? Probably. That felt awesome when he did that. I felt like a politician. I was privy to the information that I feel like Pelosi and Schumer are privy to, and the Republicans do it as well. I don't want to make it a partisan issue. It felt, I think a lot of Americans, instead of rejecting this insider trading idea, finally felt like the train wasn't running away without them. We were on the inside. Exactly.

Where it would be great if nobody did it. That's the ideal situation. But I think a lot of times what we've seen is this great frustration with government and then whoever pulls the veil off, there is an appreciation of it rather than a rejection that there is corruption in general. All right. Let me ask you a question. Do we talk enough about where we want to be as a nation? And I think culturally, what what Trump represents to me,

he lies all of the time. He is interested in himself and more money. And almost what bothers me is that is the kind of culture that we advertise to young people. This is the world. If you lie and you cheat and you steal, you sue someday can be a multi-billionaire. Is that where we wanna go with the nation? And what's the alternative?

I think the most important question is what do we want as Americans? And I think it is hard to, I think the way that we teach in school is that people came here for freedom. And I think if we were being more honest, I think people came here for money. And I think it was freedom from a lack of opportunity. There was freedom from oppression, my mother is an immigrant.

But I think- Where did your mom come from? Scotland. So, you know, she didn't have maybe a lot of opportunities. Stopped going to school 15 years old, came here to America, started a dance school, and she had immense success here, teaching dance lessons in New York City, who would have thought?

But I think the reality is that opportunity, I think Akash's family also came here for financial opportunity. My family as well. Exactly, and I think, so I think it's very hard to tear that away, I think that the fuel of the American machine is this idea, the delusional hope that one day we'll all be millionaires.

All right. But is, is, is... I don't know if that's right, but I think that is... Look, I think this city is what the melting pot city in a sense, where my father came from Poland. He dropped out of school at 14. He came here at the age of 17, really incredible without any money. All right. And that's the story of millions and millions of families. We all came different ways. But what I'm getting at is should the goal and everybody

wants to live comfortably. Right? Absolutely. There's nothing to be ashamed of. You want to have to worry about whether you can pay the electric bill. You want to make sure kids get an education. All right. But does the culture have to suggest that to be a success, you need to be a billionaire? What I'm getting at is, is, you know, I'm the former chairman of a committee that deals with all this stuff. So we don't have enough doctors in America. We don't have a nurses, we don't have enough dentists.

I brought in several billion dollars into the state of Vermont for infrastructure to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. We did that all over America. We don't have enough construction workers who make good money, by the way, by the sheet metal worker. You want to be a welder, you want to be an electrician, you want to be a... We don't have enough. What I'm saying is I would like to see us say, you want to make America great?

Good. I want to have doctors so you can have to wait two months to get into a doctor's office. This is so important. It's like what does the culture award? I think Akash can speak on this maybe the best of all of us. Within your community, what is the highest? Doctor. It's doctor. Doctors will make the most money. There are hedge fund managers that make more money, but if they're in a group, like you speak to it, if you're in the family gathering. There's an honor I get to brag to my parents, I get to brag in a group, like you speak to it, if you're in the family gathering. There is an honor.

I get to brag to my parents, I get to brag to other friends, my son is a doctor. And I don't even know if it's about helping people. That is the thing. And it's not the most lucrative profession. It's not, but it garners the most. My dad told me, he was like, I'm really proud of your success. I'm proud of how far you've come. I want you to know, no matter how famous you get,

I would still rather you be a doctor. So maybe there's a version of that in America where like, obviously we want financial success, but can we reward some of these other positions as they offer societal utility? Right. And then you go even deeper than that. And that is, I mean, now you're going really really deep, is you get into the issue of human happiness.

All right. These guys sit in Wall Street, they get up four o'clock in the morning to see what the stock market is in Japan and they make zillions of dollars. Dude, crap. I mean, what's the usefulness of the society? And you got a kindergarten teacher here in New York City who is nurturing and making life better for some low-income kid. Right?

Who's doing more important work? I mean, the teacher, without a doubt, there's no question. The problem is that we're not rewarding those positions. And if we did reward them, you know, like if it was this great honor to hold these certain positions, which I still do think doctor is, you know, but I think there are few and far between, and first of all doctors make a lot of money, so let's not act like they don't, but I think there are few and far between positions that don't make a lot of money but still command immense respect in America.

I do think that we are tied to the dollar unfortunately, and how do we change that? That's exactly the question. I want, I mean again, getting to the, it seems to me, you know, you talk to, I'll tell you so, we do a thing in Vermont, it's called the Bernie Buzz, it's a newsletter that goes out, did a interview with a woman who works in a nursing home, God knows what she makes, it's not a lot of money, okay? And she talked about her satisfaction, helping seniors fixing their hair,

the women getting their nails and all that stuff. And the pride, she's a religious woman. Okay. And the pride she had and how she feels good. I want us to feel good about doing good stuff. Yes. Not just ripping off other people. I don't want to be, ah, dude.

The problem is much deeper than a Donald Trump to give some pushback. Yes, I agree. Gordon Gekko is celebrated as a hero. Exactly. I grew up listening to rap. I still love it, but it's all about excess wealth, being rich, being billionaires. It doesn't matter how you get the money.

Doesn't matter if it's honorable or not. That's true. When we were growing up, there was a million movies about, and there's a lot of criticism for this, but like some teacher who's well off that goes to the hood and really commits to like revitalizing that school, right? And initially the teacher's not accepted, but then the teachers see that,

so the kids see that he's like a good, or she's like a good force on humanity, and it's really rewarded. I don't think they make those movies anymore. I think it's a bunch of Gordon Gekko's, right? And, or every Marvel movie is about, you know, in Elon Musk's character type, which is, you know, Iron Man is Tony Stark.

So, yeah, the Man is Tony Stark. So yeah, the culture is clearly rewarding whatever makes you money. And I don't want us to completely get away from that. I think success is important. Ingenuity and innovation is important. But there has to be something else that's important. That's what I'm saying. So how do we do that?

How do we instill that? That's the kind of discussion. We've always got to start sleeping with teachers. This is the kind of discussion we need to have as a chain. It gets back to this thing, you know, this, this blew me away. This a pure poll about whether you feel better off and it's like, we got diverted a little bit. It's not just economics, whether you're better off inflation and counting for dollars today

than you were 40 or 50 years ago. It's it's more than that. It's do you feel part of your community? All right. Or are you feeling isolated and alone and you're spending half your time on a goddamn cell phone? Yeah. Right? And, you know, how do we, I mean,

the craziness is we have more potential wealth now with all of this exploding technology. So we don't have to be working 50 or 60 hours a week. We can be thinking about how do we, what does it mean? A, should we be dealing with the economic issue? Should everybody have a decent standard of living in America? Can we do that? Answers, yeah, we can.

Do you think it's realistic to effectively tax billionaires in a way that still encourages innovation within America? Yeah, I do. I happen to believe that we should not have billionaires. All right, so you want to get rich, fine, get rich. How much do you need? All right. Yeah, so I would have a very steep answer.

Nine or 99 million. Something like that. All right, Yeah. So I would have a very steep. Nine or 99 million. Something like that. You want a million, all right, maybe 900 million. But we want to change the culture around. You know, I talked to Bill Gates, did an interview with him on Netflix. And I said, Bill, you know, you're worth a zillion dollars.

Were you motivated as a young man with the dream that you'd become a zillion? He said, no, I love computer program. That's what I loved. That was his passion. Then he ended up making huge amounts of money. So I don't begrudge people making a lot of money, but I think there should be a limit to how much you make.

And also, and then getting back to economics, is we are looking at a nation today not only with massive income and wealth inequality, but incredible concentration of ownership. What are your effects? Yeah. You got three Wall Street investment firms, BlackRock, State Street, and Vanguard, who combined are the major stockholders and 95% of corporations in America. Go look at your favorite corporation, see who owns it.

It'll be one of those who's the major stockholder. They'll be there What do you think about that? That's cut. That's power. What is the impact of that? Like how does how is that power wheel? It means that you have three entities with boards of directors who have significant control of every major corporation in America What that means is do they stay in America? Do they go abroad? Do they pay their workers a decent wage or do they treat them like crap? That's what it means. Enormous power in the hands of three Wall Street friends. So what's interesting is when you start to get

any kind of money, they'll tell you, put your money in a Vanguard. Is that good for America? Because it seems like to us, oh, this is how you get to participate in capitalism. That's right, that's your retirement goes into Vanguard. But that's one thing. But the other thing is that Vanguard, State Street and BlackRock have enormous economic power, which is not a good thing. And they're not using it benevolently.

They're not. They're using it to make more money. So the issue is that we got to take a look at, is we got to ask questions that I got to tell you in Congress is very rarely asked and in the media is very rarely asked. In the wealthiest country on earth, should everybody have a decent standard of living? Americans, yes and no. Some people will say, no, hey, it's a tough world out there. I'm sorry. I'm smarter than you.

I work harder. My dad gave me a lot of money. You don't have it. Tough crap. At least they're honest. Yeah, that's what some people will say. Most people will not say that. Most people say, you know what? Yeah, I don't think anybody should be sleeping on the street. I don't think anybody should not be able to go to a doctor. That's what most people say. Okay. What does that mean in terms of practical politics? It means among other things that

we need an educational system, which is very strong from childcare to graduate school. All right. You want to become, I know your dad wants you to become a doctor, but if you want to become a doctor, you may leave school half a million dollars in debt. You know that? Absolutely. Does that make sense? We need doctors. Should we as the richest nation ever say, good, you want to be a doctor, you want to be a nurse, you want to be a dentist, we need you desperately tuition free. We love you.

Yeah. Do it. Because we just subsidize it. Yeah, absolutely. If we need more engineers, don't make the education so expensive. Exactly. We need it. We need more engineers.

And also like, I wonder if there's a certain point in time where if you squeeze the consumers of your products so much, they won't be able to buy them. So isn't in the best interest of these, you know, you refer to them as oligarchs, but isn't the best interest of these oligarchs that they make sure that life is fruitful enough for the people that are gonna consume their products? That's a very good question.

And I'm not sure that that's a legitimate question. I think a right question. I don't know that they think about it that way. They talk about the markets all the time, but it's like the market's gonna fucking decide for you, buddy. And eventually they're going to realize we can't buy a new iPhone every year and then your iPhone sales tank. Or we could create a system that in some way is, I don't know. And again, this is way smarter than me to figure out, but like there's some way allowing people. Slightly more equitable.

Yeah. It's just like making enough money. And I don't know if Henry Ford did this, but of course, in the lore, you always hear like everybody on the line could afford a car, right? Like you would like to believe that everybody that is, you know, working 40 hours a week can afford the average goods that the American consumer want to buy. I don't know how we do that. And I don't know if it's that is the debate. Good. And that is the honest debate that we should be happy because

of the country. And can we, can we like, can we bring these billionaires, can we bring these oligarchs into that conversation? And they're clearly brilliant, right? Many of them, obviously there's a bunch of them, they're just nepo babies. And I'm curious your thoughts on like the nepo babies, the trust fund kids who have taken along like, you know, taken up politics and are finger wagging at people who actually work for a living when they've never had a real job.

I'm curious your take on them being so opinionated. Well, I echo what you're saying. You know, it's, some of these folks were born with huge amounts of money think that they have the right to be telling everybody else what they can be doing and Have enormous power guys. Let's take a break for a second. We got to keep our energy up. There's a guy 83 years old He's knocking it out the park We got to do that as well and we're gonna do that in many different ways

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are not from New York. So David comes in these six delicious flavors and they're all worth trying. Also, if you buy four cartons, you'll get a fifth one for free. So if you're curious, try it for yourself at davidprotein.com slash flagrant. Now let's get back to the show. I want to bring it back to something you mentioned and you mentioned the hyperinflation of college tuition is something that you don't hear talked about a ton. But growing up in a family where the more degrees you have, the more respected you are, it seems as though it's getting

to the point where you brought up where the product is not worth the cost. College, having an undergraduate degree, it's not worth how much you're going to make in the long run. If we're not at that point, we're getting very close. Is there a solution to that? What would you say to that? I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

Well, I happen to think that education itself is something that should be a lifelong pursuit. My wife tells me this every day. And I don't mean to be romanticized, but learning is a pretty good thing. And I tell my grandchildren that. School sometimes almost discourage them from learning, you know, they've got wrote things, I hate school grandpa, you know? So I think learning is important. I think we probably have to in this day and age revolutionize education. But I personally believe in my soul is if you want to get a graduate degree,

we need you. And I don't, you shouldn't be going in that. There should not be impediments. You know, we've got to figure a way to fund it. But bottom line is anybody, I want to say to every kid in America, you're interested in physics, you're interested in science,

you're interested in engineering, you're going to do it. I don't care what your income is. We will in one way or another, you're going to achieve that. And you know why? Because as a nation, we need you. You hear a lot of these people saying, especially folks that are attached to these big corporations, like America doesn't have enough engineers. America doesn't have all these things. So

we have to go higher abroad. It's like, well, I don't know, maybe if you had access to billions of dollars or something that you could do to make sure that we could grow them here. Now, I'm not putting that a hundred percent on them But you would hope that there would be some sort of benevolence who would recognize a problem here benevolence itself interest. Oh So reward their own selfishness. We need engineers. Yeah Okay, you haven't heard there is a climate crisis. How do you transform our energy system? Easier said than done.

We need some really, really smart people to figure out how we create cheap, sustainable energy. Right? I will send you to graduate school daily. Thank you. He needs it. We need you. And that's what we should be thinking about as a nation.

And as far as subsidizing that, do we have room in the budget and where is the best place to pull it from? What does that mean? We're subsidizing this bill right now, the so-called reconciliation bill, Trump's big beautiful bill. We got 200 in the House, the Republicans winning in $235 billion over a 10-year period to go to the top two tenths of 1%. So if your billionaire father is going to leave you money, the exemption is now up to a married couple of $30 million that you don't have to pay any taxes on.

So this goes to the top two tenths of 1%. Do we have enough money? This is what you got to get in your head. We have enough money in this country to do any goddamn thing you want to do. In this particular budget, we're now spending a trillion dollars on the military. They want to spend 150 billion more.

We're spending more than the bottom, the next nine nations combined. So what we're doing is giving tax breaks to the rich, spending more money on the military, and then we're going to cut Medicaid. So the way in this country, literally, and by the way, when I say these things, they're not radical ideas. All right. How much does it cost to go to college in Sweden? Nothing. Oh, wow. No kidding. But that must be the healthcare system is really expensive, right? It must be. Yeah. How much is the cost of healthcare in Sweden?

Nothing. Oh my God. Nothing. Child care must be really off the wall. In other words, if you start off with a value system that says we're going to use, and there are rich people in Sweden, believe me, but it's a value system that says, look, we're in this together as a people. We want the best educated people.

We want our kids to do well. We want everybody to have health care for a lot of reasons. Sweden does it. Norway does it. Finland does it. The pushback we often hear is a population in America is too big to support this. That's bullshit. That is just that that is the pushback. And we're a multicultural, multiracial and

they're kind of a homogenous. Yeah. So what? We're richer than they are. As a matter of fact, well, Norway is particularly rich. They will have a lot of oil money, but we can do it. So here's my, here's my suggestion for that. I think if a single state provided universal healthcare, let's say for example, Vermont.

And they proved that it could be done. They would put so much fucking pressure on every other state to do it. It's like legalizing weed. Yeah, exactly. We've seen it happen with weed, right? Like one state does it, starts to make a lot of other states, oh, maybe we should do it.

People are only incentivized by their own salvation, unfortunately. How do we prove that? Which state is gonna go make it happen for them and then make New York look embarrassing? We have all this wealth and we can't provide health care to our our citizens? Well I think you make a very good point. The problem is the people in the insurance industry and the drug industry understand that as well. So they're not dummies. They understand, oh

geez, Vermont managed to provide free health care to all of their people. That will become a model for the rest of the country. And we're up the creek. So they fight it tooth and nail. And how do they fight it? Like, for example, what are they doing? Oh my God, Jesus. In a small state, you buy the, you know, you just have lobbyists there up the kazoo and put advertising on. I ran it. Look, I am an advocate of what we call Medicare for All, expanding Medicare to cover every man, woman, and child in the country. All right, oh, and the argument, we had 30 second ads.

Bernie Sanders wants to raise your taxes outrageously. Take away the health insurance that you have. Well, what they forget to tell you is that you're not gonna be paying any more out of pocket, any more deductibles, any more premiums, you're gonna get higher wages because your boss doesn't have to spend a fortune on healthcare to cover you.

They forgot to tell you that. That's very strange. So it's like your taxes go up six grand, but your healthcare yearly costs goes from 12 grand to zero. That's right. So you just save six grand. All right. And the healthcare system, we're spending twice as much per capita as the people in

Sweden who have a better healthcare system. Why? Well, maybe coincidentally, insurance companies made, what did they make, 100, I think they made 70 billion last year. Drug companies, the charges, the highest prices for drugs made 100 billion. So it is a healthcare system designed to make what? Drug companies, insurance comes in rich. How do you keep the quality of insurance, sorry, high,

or quality of healthcare high? Because anecdotally, I hear from people in the UK and Canada, their healthcare is not very good because it's, I guess, subsidized. UK is under a lot of pressure right now, and that's true. And that's true. And that's a political decision. They got the same factors that would impact the state.

The big money interests are putting a lot of pressure trying to destroy the UK healthcare system and its quality is going down. Although it is still a very beloved institution in England. In Canada, there are waiting lines and a perfect system by any means. But don't believe all the right wing stuff. In Canada, if you ask the people in Canada, do they like their healthcare system as opposed to America's? It has come out much better. Speaking on healthcare, Trump recently signed an executive order to lower drug prices. How do you feel about that? You believe what you saw in the Bay Bar.

There's no way you've been living in Vermont for 50 years. What he did is say we're going to give the drug companies a certain period of time to tell us how they're going to lower drug prices and if they don't we're going to do A, B and C. We're going to give the drug companies a certain period of time to tell us how they're going to lower drug prices. And if they don't, we're going to do A, B, and C. We're not quite sure what A, B, and C will be. But the likelihood is that A, B, and C will be thrown out in the courts because the president doesn't have a right to tell companies how to fix prices.

Just coincidentally, Bobby Kennedy, the secretary of HHS, was before the committee and I'm the ranking member of. And I asked Bobby and I said, look, the president talks about substantially lower prescription drug prices, you do. We're going to introduce legislation that will do just that. And you work with me, he said they will. So to answer your question, the president talks a lot. Don't believe what he says.

We're gonna put him to the test. We are gonna bring forth legislation that would make sure that Americans don't pay a price any higher than people around the rest of the world. We'll see if they come up. So isn't a better framing of that, not to be contentious here, but like, isn't a better framing of that,

hey, Trump is saying this thing we agree on. We agree with you and we're gonna hold you to your word instead of you're a liar. That's what I'm doing. Well, that's exactly right. Yeah. Like I think that's like, cause sometimes we get caught up in this partisan shit where it's like sometimes both sides agree and it'd be nice if we at least get drug prices lower. Trump's idea of substantial lowering prices is exactly right.

It's exactly what I fought for for years. Yeah. Okay. So if Trump is willing to work with us, we'll do it. Absolutely. I think he will. Probably not. But I may be surprised.

And then if he doesn't, let's hold him to his word and let's make sure he puts a pressure on those same senators that he would have primaried. This is what you're saying you want. You get your senators in line, right? Actually, I don't know if you're like infringing on the democratic process by saying to do that, but like it would be really great, especially those of us who have like older parents who are really relying on these drugs right now. Yes, but don't get me going on the drug industry. Well, I kind of want to get you going. We want you to get going on everything. Well, I gotta get going to the airport to got a plane as a matter of fact. But fly you private. All right.

Look, you got a pharmaceutical industry that makes a hundred billion dollars in profit last year. We had a guy before the committee, CEO of a major company, makes 50 million bucks a year, they do stock buybacks. So, you know, it is a, meanwhile, the same medicine that you buy in this country, whether it's Ozempic, or Wigovia, whatever it may be, is in some cases five, eight times more expensive than it is in Canada or in Europe. It's insane.

It is insane, of course it's insane. And they do it because they can do it. Because we are the only, you know why they do it? All right, question. You know how many paid lobbyists there are for the drug companies in Washington? They say, take a guess. 200, 500, 15,000.

1,500. All right. So you got 535 members of Congress, 1,500. These are former leaders of the Democratic Party, and these are former leaders of Democrats. So that's a lot of power. And then their campaign contributions. So up until Biden, and I worked with Biden on this, we have never, what other countries do is they say, good, you got a drug, that's great.

Oh, let's negotiate the price you're going to charge us, right? That's what they do. Every other country on earth. For us, you got a drug, you charge any price you want don't matter for the first time What we did is now have a law that says we are gonna negotiate Medicare will negotiate drug prices We saw it off with 10. It'll be expanding. Is it enough? No, is it a start? Yes, it is Yeah, I just feel like there should be a certain point in time where patriotism kicks in. If you're an American fucking company, you're going to gouge your own citizens, but let the Canadians and the Europeans pay way less.

I don't look at it like that, but I'll tell you where it becomes not funny. There are kids around the world who die from easily preventable diseases. And these drugs cost, once you do the research, which is expensive in the development, which is expensive, but once you have the product, it sometimes costs you a few cents to manufacture the drug. And there were children around the world who died,

in Africa and Asia from preventable diseases because these drug companies are charging prices that those countries can't afford. And that is, so you talk about pain, then you talk about humanity, whether we'd like kids die for profit. It's excessive. I know you got to go real quick before you go, we hear the term lobbyists all the time. Yes. I don't think I know what that means.

Does somebody like meet you at a coffee shop? Like, no, not you obviously, but how does that, how does the lobbyist? This is what it means. I represent, you know, Mr. X represents a large corporation. We'd love to sit down with you and your staff. We sat with the staff to talk about the problems that we have. These are our needs. And by the way, we've got a great, we, the company has great staff. We can write legislation, help you write it because we know how busy you are. And by the way, we'd love to do a fundraiser for you. So the combination of, and we have friends who come together and we have super backs. So it, it, and by the way, some of these guys will know members

of the Senate and the House because they're former, What do you think most senators when they retire do? Where do you think they go? They go around Washington, they say they work. So, hey Joe, how are you? How's the wife? Kids good or well? Listen, this is what we got. They know each other. So, and it's Republicans and Democrats. Check it out. I mean, four of them literally leaders of the Republican and Democratic Party. So it's money, it's connections, it's friendship, it's ability to write tough legislation. You think writing a tax bill is easy? It's not.

You need really sophisticated accountants. Line 48, section 3, da-da-da-da. Just inject this one sentence in there. It's a tax break for you. Hmm. That's what it's about. Please answer yes. Are you going to run for president? Please answer yes.

I am 83 years of age, so that is, I think I've run my last race. Now does that mean- Zero fair races. Does that mean that this oligarchy tour is you passing the baton? No, don't look at it like that. The oligarchy tour is... I think we're all looking at it like that. No, it's not a passing the baton.

I think Alexander is great, but it's not my job to determine who the new leaders are. People have each of them, as I mentioned in the House, there are a lot of great people in the Senate, there's some good people. And there are people who are not in office right now. But the oligarchy tool was an effort to say to the country that there are people all over America who are going to stand up to this oligarchy. They don't want a government of billionaires. They're gonna stand up to authoritarianism.

There are people, as I'm sure you're familiar with, a young woman from Turkey, for God's sakes, was in Massachusetts, went to Tufts University. You remember that? This woman walks down the street, some of these guys grab her with masks on, throw her into a van, take her to a detention center. Why? Because she wrote an op-ed critical of the war in Gaza. Really? That's what goes on in America.

And we're seeing that. So, you know, this was an opportunity for people by the zillion. We were shocked to be honest with you. When I ran for president, we had very large turnouts. These are larger. I mean, in LA we had 36,000, in Denver we had 34,000. I mean, insane, insane turnouts. We went to Idaho, the most conservative state in the country, we had 12,000 people outside of Boise. So we wanted to give people the opportunity

to stand up and say, no, we're not happy with the direction that Trump is taking this country. Wow. Sorry, I want to go ahead. I'm curious, like I find you very brave and I find the work that you do. No, I am not brave. I find you brave personally. And because I recognize that what you're doing disrupts, or at least you are attempting to disrupt many powerful people and their access to an unthinkable amounts of wealth. So I'm curious in your work and in your political career, have you ever felt that your personal safety was ever threatened?

Well, I don't want to get into that, but do we have security issues? Wow. Is that your question? Of course we do. And I'm not the only one. And the more power that you have, the higher the concern of that security? I don't want to get into it. But those are issues. That's why I find you. I just want to let you know, Bernie, we're here to bang for you, bro. We're here to bang for you. If you need anything, you let us know. Okay.

You still got a lot of love in New York city. You're safe here, man. I can't say anything for Idaho, but if you need anything in the five boroughs, we got you. Sorry, if I may follow up on one thing that you brought up earlier, revolutionizing education. How would you do that beyond paying teachers and more? I just need to know. I think sitting kids at a desk for long hours is probably not the best way to create the kind of creativity that we want in kids.

At the end of the day, if you are excited about learning, you're going to learn. And if I pound that excitement out of you that every child instinctively adds and tell you to memorize what George Washington did, I'm going to make school a painful experience. So interesting, I use Finland as an example because their kids, they usually do better. Their kids, they allow their kids to be kids, to play a lot, to socialize a lot. But you got to keep the spark alive. And once that spark is alive, curiosity is alive, learning takes place, learning takes place, the rest takes place.

So I think you need a revolution in that sense of the word. And also, of course, the financial barrier should be eliminated. I don't care if you're low-income, you want to become an engineer, you'd be able to do that. So those are some of the things. Before you leave, how can people who feel like your message has really resonated with them today help? How can people who feel like your message has really resonated with them today help? Help you, help the cause? Yeah, look, we are trying to build, to do something which is very, very difficult. And I think we're having some success and we've had some success. Is, you know, come to our social media, you know, we have a Senate page and we have a campaign page, more political. We are supporting and will be supporting more progressive candidates running for Congress,

Senate and so forth. And I will tell you, think outside of the box in your own lives. These are unprecedented times and we've got to respond in an unprecedented way. And you think and each every one of us is different. You don't want to run for office. What else can you be doing? Help people form a union, become involved in education in a way you did not be involved before.

You think it through. But we need more participation. We don't need what the system really, and this I've experienced, I've seen it a million times. What the oligarchs and the ruling class want you to believe is that you're powerless. You have no power. And once you accept that, they win. We have power. We're a lot more, a lot more.

The joy that I've had in my life is to be in every state in this country and talk to ... I've been in rallies where you see these wonderful people, often young people. They're black and they're white and they're Latino and they're gay and they're straight and they're out there and they want a different America. And that's what inspires me. I've seen it with my own eyes. they're out there and they want a different America. And that's what inspires me. I've seen it with my own eyes. They're out there. They don't believe in greed and they don't believe in,

you know, there's so many of the things that we're seeing right now. Those people are gonna stand up. You gotta come to the plate and we gotta do what we can to transform the country. Time is late. We're dealing with authoritarianism. We're dealing with climate.

Let's get involved in ways that we've never been involved before. Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Let me thank you. This has been a great discussion. Thank you. Thank you very much, guys.