Andrew Schulz's Flagrant with Akaash Singh - Triple H: WWE Champs are Selfish, John Cena’s Heel Turn, & How Vince McMahon Never Loses

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

YERRR – the guys brought in none other than The Game himself, Triple H, to break down the wild world of professional wrestling. From getting punished by Vince and the rise of DX, Triple H opens up about everything: the business, the characters, the pain, the politics – even training Floyd Mayweather. Plus, his insane story of marrying his wife, internet trolls, and why being a babyface is actually harder than it looks. All that and more on this week’s episode of FLAGRANT. INDULGE 00:00 Everything is Wrestling 00:40 When Triple H was punished 4:25 Fans are super aware + Blurring the Lines 7:15 WCW was poaching talent + MSG show 12:58 Being punished by Vince + Inmates running the asylum 20:17 Going through it + Maximise your minutes 26:07 "S*ck it", Origins of DX + Being a mirror 37:50 Vince finally accepting + Pushing buttons 44:52 The rise of Stone Cold Steve Austin 50:12 Staying safe + Heel to Face 54:18 Being without Shawn Michaels + Reforming DX 1:00:14 Whatever it takes + WCW was doomed to failure 1:07:27 Developing character + Turning heel 1:12:17 How many now understand the game? 1:17:40 Being in the mix + Stephanie McMahon 1:27:37 Moms spot the love + Vince trying to stop it 1:31:51 Getting creative 1:37:28 Quad injury + intense commitment 1:42:06 Biggest pop at MSG + Being a good guy 1:52:13 Babyface have to be selfish + Bad guys' logic 1:56:44 Cena turning heel + The Process 2:00:01 Trump understanding heat 2:02:48 Being babyface is hard 2:10:30 Triple H training Floyd Mayweather + Understanding wrestling 2:16:19 Blending reality + Patience in your storytelling 2:19:58 Internet isn't real, Pivoting + Supreme skillset 2:26:17 Parallels with comedy + Schulz v Logan Paul 2:32:26 Never being full sure + Where is WWE now? 2:35:27 UFC jumping across to WWE 2:38:28 Tommy Invincible is phenomenal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Guys, I'm sure you're all familiar with the old proverb, everything is wrestling. Politics, business, entertainment, every industry thrives on character development, storytelling and building an audience. Wrestling is a mirror for whatever is happening in culture. So if you want to understand culture, just watch wrestling. And no one understands the art of storytelling and brand building better than our guest today is a 14 time WWE world champion, a two time Royal Rumble winner, and now he's behind the scenes running World Wrestling Entertainment. He's a man of many monikers. Terra Ryzen, Jean-Paul LeVeck,

Hunter Hearst Helmsley, big game. But today we're going to call him Triple H. Give it up for our guest. Thank you. Okay, first question. I'm doing some research on you, and I come across this story, I don't know if it's legend, you and I come across this story, I don't know if it's legend, you can break it down for us, but basically one of the worst moments in your career, you get punished unjustly. And because of that punishment, one of the greatest superstars in the history of wrestling is created. Tell us how we get there.

Yeah, I'll just, I'll lead you into what's supposed to happen. So at that point in time, I'm starting to get some momentum going in my career and there's a plan in place that I am going to win a very, especially at the time was a very prestigious tournament called the King of the Ring. I would be crowned King of the Ring, which would then launch me into a program or an angle with Shawn Michaels, who was champion. I think at the time when they brought it up, he was either champion at that time or was going to be champion by that time. And I was going to sort of escalate myself up into that higher level of being a heel, a bad guy. And Shawn was a babyface champion. So we were going to go into this program Heel, the bad guy, and Shawn was a babyface champion. So we were gonna go into this program into that year.

So it would have been a huge, what we would call push for me in the business. Yeah, yeah, just would have really been the thing that launched me. Also, this is years into the business. This is not early. Yeah, this is years into the business, but early for me in WWE to a degree.

And at that same point in time, the business was going through transitional changes, right? So at that time, I'm still Hunter Hearst Helmsley, I'm the blue blood snob. There's still like everybody's got to have sort of gimmicks and characters that are not necessarily just like you're a wrestler, you're a fireman or or cop or the clown. Walk out with a two by four. Yeah, whatever it is. The gimmicks are larger than life, sort of cartoony characters. But backstage, there's a group of us that hang out together that were known as the Clique.

Yeah. Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Sean Waltman, Sean Michaels, myself. And I was kind of, they were kind of just friends that all hung out together. Sort of Luger gave them the name The Click because they were always together. I sort of come in at that same time.

For whatever reason, I get along great with those guys. We all end up as a group, we're known as The Click. Now, you're known as a group backstage. Backstage, but not on... Because on stage, some of you guys are baby faces, some of you guys are heels. And from my understanding, the heels and the baby faces never even really hung out that much backstage. They would never ride around together.

There was like a real. To a degree. Slightly before that, you go a generation before that, nobody even associated with each other. If they walked into a bar and there was a bad guy in there and a good guy walked in a bar, you'd just leave. So you basically keep the K-Fab going. You keep it going all the time.

And you know, that was at a period of time where guys were getting into fights over, you know, if somebody came to you and said, ah, that stuff's fake, whatever, you know, try to criticize it. Or you'd just kick it down. Sure keep slapping the guys. Yeah, yeah. And there was a lot of badasses in the business at that time that were not afraid to, to, to do that. Yeah.

Guys like Harley race and things like that, that would really, you know, they were legitimate bad asses. And if somebody questioned the business, they'd end up beating up, knocked out, broken leg, whatever. And the idea is that like that you have to protect the business because without the business there's no job. And it's all predicated on this idea that this is 100% real, not scripted,

and people need to believe. Yeah, though as you move forward out of that, I think people became accepting of, it's just great entertainment. Yeah, so. I wanna get to this later because I don't wanna drop this story, but I think one of the coolest things that I've learned now

especially different from when I was a kid watching wrestling is like how aware the average wrestling fan is of what's going on and it's become really meta. To click away. Yeah, to click away all the information. Yeah. And what's fascinating about our business is as interesting as the characters we put on TV, right, so there's a moment where there's some people that are just interested in what they see on TV. There are some people that are just as fascinated, if not more so, with what happens behind the scenes.

The sort of the, who that person is in real life, the politics of it. They make up their own stories in some manner of the things that are going on. Well, I know that guy hates that guy and they don't get along at all. We will even perpetuate that through the internet and things like that where it might not have anything to do with a story that is happening on the show, but we'll perpetuate that partially. As we get into this, I think that's important that you brought that up because I think that's a huge game changer that I hope you get credit for in wrestling.

And blurring the lines of what's happening backstage and on stage. So part of that translates into, or relates to this story of what you're talking about. So that group, the clique, were all very tight backstage. It's not like common knowledge. I wouldn't say everybody knows it, but there's a section of fans that at that time, you know, this is before the internet, are really beginning to understand what goes on behind the scenes

and who's really tight and who's not. These guys are friends and that guy isn't and they don't like this guy and there's politics with that, whatever. So Kevin Nash and Scott Hall make a deal with WCW to leave. The rival league who's throwing money around at this point, signing away a bunch of people. There's a thing, a Monday night war going on. Vince is coming off of trials and all this stuff where the business is sort of down.

WCW goes on the attack and one of the things that they do is they start really coming after talent with big checks. Whereas Vince sort of puts you into a position where you are participating in the revenue of the business. So if we went to Madison Square Garden and it was sold out, the gate is this, there's a percentage of that gate that gets paid to talent. That's divvied up amongst the talent, right? There's percentages.

So if business is good, you make more money. If business is down, you make less money. And that's why you protect the business. Yes, and so WCW, they were just paying guys money. Yeah, guarantees. So, you know, Scott Hall decides he's leaving. Shortly thereafter, Kevin Nash goes through this big thing where he doesn't want to leave, but they're offering him so much money. And you know, our schedule and WWE was at that point in time, we were working, you know, 200 250 days a year, on the road all the time. Physically grueling. Yes, just non-stop. Just the travel wears out a comedian. Like, he traveled to sit on a stool on stage. I'm exhausted. You guys are flying through cages. And in the same business, right, like the best part of what you

do is when you're on that stage, when you're in that ring. And that other 23 hours and 20 minutes of the day is the shit you put up with to get to do your job. Right? But guys are doing it, it's grueling, it's relentless. And Kevin gets into a place where they're offering ridiculous money, but he still doesn't wanna go. And there's a moment where he tells me, right when he has to give the answer, I'm home,

he calls me and he's like, I'm not going, Stan, I can't do it. And then like two days later, we're at TV and he's like, I just gave Vince my notice. I'm like, I calls me and he's like, I'm not going, Stan, I can't do it. And then like two days later we're at TV and he's like, I just gave Vince my notice. I'm like, I thought you weren't going. And he's like, basically my wife said, you don't either take that money, I'm not raising this kid by myself

with that schedule anymore, like you take that money. I was like, they shrunk the schedule for WCW. Yeah, WCW was working, you know, they would mostly just do in TV. You know, they would do in some live events, right? But probably the schedule was half. Oh, wow. How are they able to give out bigger checks

if they weren't doing as much of- That's why they're out of business. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good backing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, it was Ted Turner, it was TBS, right, a lot of money, a lot of,

and there's a certain point in time where like, when you, when you're just paying a lot of money and the revenue's not coming in, like, well, you know, that's a time bomb. Yeah. Any fool can run a business in the red. Take a genius to do that. So, um, Kevin and Scott are leaving. Sean and I are leaving.

Sean and I are staying. There's another guy in the group, Sean Waltman, but he isn't at Madison Square Garden, but we're doing a show at Madison Square Garden. It's their last time at Madison Square Garden. They're leaving shortly thereafter. And Sean comes to me during the day and he's like, hey, I mentioned something to Vince about us all going out

at the end of the show and having a moment together. And I said, what did Vince say? And he was like, yeah, I guess if that means a lot to you or something like that. And so it was kind of very vague. But what was weird about it was- It's funny, that's not how I- Yeah.

So what's weird about it is to the business is Scott and I are going to wrestle earlier in the show like a street fight and I beat Scott and the whole thing. And then Shawn and Kevin are going to work a cage match for the WWE at the time, I think WWE title, whatever. And the close of the show. So us coming out there to have a moment together is sort of. Contrary to the show. Of course. And, but when now, when the time comes to do this, Scott and I wrestle earlier, we have this knockdown, drag out street fight, and then now Kevin, Sean go in

there and we're kind of at the end of the show and there's a way the garden was Scott and I wrestle earlier. We have this knockdown, drag out street fight, and then now Kevin and Sean go in there, and we're kind of at the end of the show. And there's a, the way the garden was set up in the past, there's a side vom that, like guys would always stand at to watch the show. Vince would stand at this curtain, his dad would stand at that curtain, right? That's where they would watch from.

And Scott and I were standing there, and we kind of get to the end of the match, and Sean is kind of looking to the end of the match and Sean is kind of looking back at us and Scott says to me like, are we supposed to go out there? I don't know dude. And then Scott looked at Vince and he goes, are we supposed to go out there? And he's like, kind of like we're all unsure. And then Scott's like, fuck it, I'm going. And he just goes, right. And I think in his mind, I'm quitting. Yeah, I'm out of here anyway. So no cost to him. I'm going. And I'm like, I'm quitting. Yeah, I'm outta here anyway. There's no cost to him. Yeah, fucking I'm going.

And I'm like, well, fuck then. They were kinda looking, waving back at me, and I'm like, shit, all right, here I go. So we go out there, and we have this moment. And I mean, the garden's sold out, and they go ballistic. So the people are happy to see you all acknowledge that you are friends and break the cage. It's this crazy moment, right?

It's this crazy moment of like, most people I believe in that time, probably in the garden, especially in New York, are so savvy to everything. They know we're all friends, they get it, right? And they know they're leaving. And this is like an incredible real, real life moment. First time in wrestling history this has happened?

Where you kind of break. Probably. That's my understanding, yeah. one of the big moments where it actually happens. So we do it, when we come back, everybody's gone. Like everybody. And usually at the Garden, there's people back there, the agents, all this stuff. So we come back, everybody's gone. I'm like, that's not a good sign.

But so Sean goes and talks to Vince, and Vince says, well, that was a lot different than what I thought it was gonna be. And Sean said, hope I was okay. And he said, well, did that mean something to you? And Sean goes, met the world to me. And he goes, then I'm okay with it. And we left.

And we used to stay, and at the time we stayed in Newark, and there's a place, a diner. Business is different now. We all drive back. If we were doing the garden, Long Island, all that stuff, New York was a big hub, we'd go stay in Newark. And drive all the way. At the airport and just make the balance.

So you could stay in one place. So we went back, we all had dinner together, this diner and stuff like that, and we were all like, well, that was crazy. What just happened and all that shit. And you know, big moment. So the next day I'm off, the next day I'm driving up, I lived in New Hampshire at the time, driving back up.

And as soon as I get home, there's a message from Vince's office, his secretary saying, Vince would like to see you first thing in the morning tomorrow. And I'm like, fuck like this is, this isn't going to be good. Like he ain't calling to go like, dude, wonderful job. It's my day off. I got to, you know, I gotta go there. So I like literally turn around, drive all the way back, go, go back to the office the next day. And this is the, around, drive all the way back, go back to the office the next day. And this is the meeting where like everybody's freaking out. And Vince was even putting it on. I wasn't so sure that

he was upset with it. Everybody else. And you have to understand all the producers and agents backstage and help with the show and everything are a generation before us. So they're of the generation of protective business at all costs. Bad guys don't ride with good guys, right? To some degree. They all go nuts when they see this. And now Kevin's leaving, Scott's leaving, and to those producers and agents, well, look, it looks bad for Vince.

It looks like the inmates are running the asylum and he doesn't have control over these guys. This group, the clique, is doing whatever they want and they spit right in your face. And if you don't do something, it looks bad. It's a disrespectful type thing. And I don't think Vince took it that way, but I think that's what he was, he always had a saying, perception is reality. And perception amongst them was this. And so, you know, as soon as I knew,

I wasn't sure I'm like, well, I'm either going to get fired or this is going to be like, I'm going to get like, this is going to be heavy. And, what a drive from New Hampshire. Yeah, right. Yeah, so, but I was, you know, I was kinda like, well, it is what it is. Okay. And I'm a big believer in like, if you're gonna do something that in your mind, you know, is kinda fucked up,

like you cannot cry afterwards with whatever comes about. Sure. Like you made the decision to do it, so.. So if the ramifications of that are way worse than you thought, well, that's on you. You made the choice. So yeah, it's a pretty heavy meeting. And Vince is like, look, it's unfair. It's all these things, but Kev's leaving, Scott's leaving.

I can't do anything to them. Kid wasn't there, but Sean was there, but he's the WW champion. Seanott's leaving. I can't do anything to them kid wasn't there but Sean was there But he's the WWE champion like Shawn Michaels the champ can't punish the champ not much I can do to him Yeah, and he was like well, you know, here's the thing a lot of people are saying I should fire you And I'm like, okay. What are you saying? And he said, I don't want to fire you. I think you're incredibly talented. I think you I want you here. But, you know, I've, I've got to do something. And so he was, you know, you were gonna win King of the Ring, that's

gonna go away. You're gonna do this program with Sean, that's gonna go away. You are going to and this is one of Vince's favorite sayings. But this was the time when he said it to me when he hit the hardest, he said, you are gonna have to learn to eat plate fulls of shit and like the taste of it. Damn. Okay. And I said, so the one thing, I was accepting of it, obviously he hit hard, but I was accepting of it. And I said to him, I left, I said, here's him. Cause he said, but if you want to leave, he said, I understand. This is not all on you. If you want to leave,

if you think you can get a job with Turner, with those guys, if you want to leave, I understand that I'll, I'll make it where there's a loophole in your contract. Oh, that's decent. And you can get out. Did you consider it? Did you know? I didn't, I didn't want, I had come from there. Yeah, of course. Right? So before I came in, so I kind of knew, even though it had rose, risen dramatically and their business had gone through the roof, I was like, I don't want to be there. I'm here for a reason. This is the place where they can make me a place. What felt better? What felt different?

They didn't have a clue what they were doing there. And it was literally the inmates running the asylum. I knew that like, you knew you had a boss right here. You knew that there was one place to get the final answer from and that it came from one place. And that sometimes it's all you need is whether you like the decision or you don't, you need somebody to make a decision. It can't be, well, I think this. And then you go to this guy and he's like, no, I don't want to do that. I want to do this. And he's got some kind of creative control,

but this other guy's got creative control too. And it's just a mess. It's a mess. So one of the things I said to Vince was I said, I don't want to leave. I said, but if I have no choice, then well, that's what I have to do. But I said, let don't want to leave. I said, if, but if I have no choice, then well, that's what I have to do. But I said, let me just ask you a question is I said, I'm, I'm, I did the crime. I'll take all the punishment, but I have to know, is there, is there a point where this ends? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? I'm willing to go through all the shit. I'm willing to take it. I'm willing to do the, do the time for what I did, but I gotta know there's an end point on it. If you say to me, I can't get out of this,

then I gotta go. But if you say to me, no, no, it'll be a period of time, and then you'll get the opportunity. As long as I'm still delivering to where you feel like I deserve that opportunity, if I can get that opportunity, then, then I stay. And he said, as far as I'm concerned, there's no issue with me. He said, as far as I'm concerned, when you walk out that door at my office, it's over. It's all, it's all done. And you're on flat ground with me. He said, but I got to, I got to, for a period of time, I got to put

this out to everybody else that you're fucked. And then once, once I feel like that's been enough, then as long as you're still delivering, you get the opportunity to come back up. So, um, I left there and one of the things that I said to him before I left is I, I went to the door and I stopped and I said, Hey, I just want to ask you one thing. And I just want it to be something that you think about because it's been resonating with me is I understand everybody's point of view, but the world

is changing and the business is changing. And I said, if what we did was so bad, then why was the largest or the loudest reaction of the entire night? What we did. Like if what we did was so bad, isn't our job to entertain those people that all paid? I guarantee you the one thing they left there saying is, holy shit, at the end they all came out,

it was this moment, it was real, right? Like I said, the business is changing and we're either gonna change with it or it's gonna pass us by. And he sat there for a second and he said, you might be right, but right now isn't the moment. Fair enough. And I left. And then, yeah, I went from being the guy that was going to win king of the ring to being the guy that was losing in the first round and Jake Roberts, who was, you know, fairly old at the time was sticking the snake down my pants as a ha ha thing.

And, you know, I had, you know, I got every shit detail, every bad thing I got given to me. What are examples of that? Like, what are examples of just getting fucked? Whoever was the worst guy that they wanted me to get over like just go put that guy go go get so you'd have to wrestle these guys that they're trying to build up and they all have to beat you yeah and and and you know I'm not I'm not on any media anymore I'm not featured in the shows I just you're just there you're a B side fighter I'm just at best right and boxing we call it a tomato can yeah yeah at best and then so yeah time went by and I was like I'm gonna best. Right. In boxing we call it a tomato can. Yeah. At best. And then so, yeah, time went on and, you know, eventually it got to a point where I'm a big believer in like, if you're talented, and, you know, I'll say that about myself, I guess in that manner, but if you're, if you believe in yourself and you believe in your talent,

then they can't only hold that back for so long, that that'll eventually come out and it'll eventually rise to the top. And it's not about the storyline they give you always or the thing they give you, it's about creating your moments. There's something I tell talent all the time, maximize your minutes.

So even if I went out there with a shit detail, I would find something in there for me to have a moment. Yeah. Oh, that was good. Whatever. You know what I mean? Like I would have that one moment where I at least felt like I came back and I was like, that was horrible, but I at least got this out of it.

Made the best of it. Yeah. And you sort of have to, you have to have those moments. This might be too vague to answer. If it is, that's fine. You just move on. But what is an example, like a moment to like a noob like me? That's too vague.

It's fine. It could be anything, but it just could be when you have an opportunity. At some point as the healer, you're going to have an opportunity to beat the shit out of the baby face. In what manner do you do it? So many people get into a place in our business, I think, or anything else, like in our business where you believe in yourself and you believe in your ability and as writers, we're not using you to the best of your ability right now.

That happens to everybody, right? And there's ebbs and flows in your career. How you deal with that though is up to you. You can go out there and say, I'm gonna fucking prove it to them every single night. I'm gonna go out there and kill this, no matter what it is. Or you can go, they're not using me. They don't care.

Fuck that, I'll show them. And go out there and not try. Even getting your ass kicked, you can have a good performance. Phone it in. You know, right? Yeah, there's like, anytime I'm acting or like doing some movies, like sometimes you see some real You know, right? Yeah, there's like, anytime I'm acting

or like doing some movies, like sometimes you see some real pros there, right? And they might have like a line or two in the scene and they'll just find a way to make it the funniest line, even when they're not even saying anything. Scene stealer, guy in the background that just like, where you just can't help but look at that guy.

Yeah, and it's like, it's not like they're being narcissistic. They're like, given one line, they're like, how can I add to this scene and how can I make this good? And watching that is really interesting because a lot of times you look at the script and you're like, okay, who is the most lines? Okay, me, I'm delivering it, or that person there delivering it.

So you could have one line. Exactly. And it could be all about. Exactly, and that's the thing, right? So you can either go negative on it. I can sometimes tell watching the show, like that guy walking out, he's about to get beat by this other guy and he thinks it's wrong that they're putting that guy over him.

So he doesn't want to do it. We call it booboo face. And so he comes out booboo faced and he doesn't have that same fire. Now that same talent sometimes, oh, they're going over. This match is for them. This they're going to go over. They come out like a big star and everything they do is they're putting all the effort in and like all that stuff. Right. It's it's it's easy to put the effort in when they're going away. Yeah. And when they're going with you and this is all

about me. The trick is to put that effort in. You trick is to still go to the gym, hit it just as hard, be just as good as shape, be spot on on your game, and do all those things that you need to do because when that one time that they give you something and you see that hole, I can do that and steal this scene. And you go out there and you do that. And now, after a couple of times, that stuff starts to become undeniable because the truth is we just react off what the crowd does

yeah so when the crowd starts to see that and they start to get into a talent now you're giving that crowd what they want and they're respecting it and they're going with it we have no choice but to follow that yeah would you ever get upset at your opponent if it feels like they're just phoning it in during the match sometimes and what do you do you fuck them up a little bit more? Nah, you know, it just depends on who it is. You know, sometimes you just talk to them like, come on, guys, come on, step up.

Or, you know, whatever it is, sometimes you just can't help. Also, guys, tour dates. Denver, I'm in Greenwood Village, Colorado, at ComedyWorks South on Friday and Saturday. Sunday, I'm gonna be at the ComedyWorks in Downtown 420 show. You know what that means, I will be performing high the one and only time all year. May 9th and 10th, Virginia Beach.

June 19th and through 21st, I'm gonna be in Salt Lake City at Wise Guys. All those dates and plenty more at akashsync.com. Also, June 4th through 9th, Brown basketball players, Brown Ballers Tournament compete for a million dollars in, where is this shit going to be, somewhere in North Carolina, Cary, North Carolina, June 4th through 6th, check that out. I just want to shout out my brown brothers playing basketball.

Keep doing great things. Love y'all. Hold on a second. Don't skip forward guys, because it's the world's fastest ad read. My name is Mark. I'm coming to America. All right. We're going to Bangor, Maine, Portland, Maine, Charleston, Atlanta Strasburg Hoboken, Indianapolis Let's get a fuck miles in the chat by the way to preview didn't skip we got Raleigh, North Carolina Poughkeepsie, Portland, Fort Worth, Austin, Stanford, Philly, Leviton, Chandler and San Diego more dates to come You can get it at my website markgagnonlive.com

And I can't wait to see you guys there for consensual time, or no one's gonna have, no one's gonna suck my dick. Somebody suck his dick. Okay, and we're back. Okay, so yeah, I wonder if eating shit for that much time gave you a real competitive advantage, because you get used to not getting the thing. So now you're not bitter about not getting it,

and also you're not afraid about being the position where you're not getting put over. Yeah, totally agree. Because you would heal a bunch of times even after your success. Yeah, well, and I think it, I don't know, there's something like, at that point now, I'm trying to earn my way back up,

but at the same point in time, you start to begin to realize like, oh, well, fuck it. If it doesn't go well, then who knows? I could be here for a while, they could fire me. Or maybe this isn't the right place for me, so I go someplace else, whatever that is. You start to get to a place that is,

I don't wanna say you don't give a shit because you do. You care more than anything. But you start to realize, fuck it give a shit because you do you care more than anything But you start to realize fuck it. I'm just gonna do my thing. You're free. Yeah, it's a free Yeah, it's a freeing thing. You're obsessed with the outcome so much. Yeah, so when you see us get to a point after that when I start to get sort of free of that junk is The time we get to do DX We had been on Vince for a long time prior to Kevin and Scott leaving that we get to do DX. We had been on Vince for a long time prior to Kevin and Scott leaving that we wanted to do this group.

We wanted to sort of take what we were doing personally and put it on TV because we thought people will really think this is cool. Right, right. And Kevin and Scott are gone. You're telling people to suck your dick personally? Yeah, we had to put the dick part in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You understood what it was, yeah. You need to sell those aprons. What's that? Suck the chef. Yeah, yeah. Go look this up. So that was sort of just us in real life, right? Just walking around the backyard. Suck the chef.

Austin gets to a place where he's allowed to flip people off. Oh, sorry, we never got to the limit. Yeah, so I'll get there. But like Austin was in a place where he could flip people up, but prior to that, as we're coming out of that generation, you can't flip people off, you can't do that, you can't do anything. As talent, this is before any of this happens, Kev, Scott, myself, we have this thing we would do where you'd get up

on the turnbuckle and somebody would be yelling at you, flipping you off or something, and you'd just look at them and be like, hey buddy, right fucking there. You know what I mean? That's all it would be. Or you'd be like, you know, just, and they got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you'd move on. As the attitude era begins to form and sort of, I'm in a place where, hey, I just want to get out of this purgatory I'm in. And Sean's the guy, we get the Vince, Vince allows us to sort of partner up on screen and DX becomes a thing. And in the beginning, now we start doing all this crazy shit and he's like, the fuck are you guys doing now? I've also, over that time when I'm punished, I think Vince liked the fact that he threw all this shit at me and I never

blinked. You know what I mean? Like the only one time I ever went to him and bitched in all of it, and it was because he put me in a match with a guy that was almost impossible to work with and then gave me like the worst referee that we had. And like the whole setup was bad and it went really badly. And I came back and I went off and it was like, hey, fuck it. If you're going to, if you're going to not allow me to have the chance to succeed, then fuck that, I'm out of here.

Like you cannot give me, you cannot put me in a position where I cannot fucking succeed or cannot win and can't even do my job, right? Like if you put me in that position, then I have no choice but to go because I cannot, I can't overcome that. What was it? It was working. I was wrestling a guy that was just terrible. They wanted me to have

this long match with them. They gave me the worst referee, which a referee can help you work around people's in in abilities because I can talk to the referee. So if I need a guy to do something, he's not doing something right, I can't just always walk over there and tell him. Right? So you tell the referee. I'm like, fucking tell him to stop doing that

and fucking, you know what I mean? Like the referee can go over and tell him, he said, stop doing that, do this, right? And I have enough experience to where guys will listen, but I need that sometimes you need to help, especially on live TV, or even tape TV, you just need to have that. Who was the guy?

Ahmed Johnson, a guy named Ahmed Johnson. Oh, I remember him. He was terrible, yeah. He was like, injured people in the ring, right? He was hurting people and he was just big. Yeah, big, steroid-looking big. Yeah, and you couldn't understand him, and he had an attitude problem. And just, you know, that's him. And, you know, it was just one of those things.

And when I came back, I was pissed, and I went to Vince, and I got a promo on him, and I thought he was going to go off. And I said, well, fuck, I told you if you don't like it, fuck you, get out of here, whatever. And he didn't. He was like, that's fair. That's fair. And I was like, okay, well then fucking don't do it again. I walked out. But he was like, that's fair. You can't, if I put you, if I give dump that much shit on you, that you just can never dig out of it, then, you know, so, um, so he, you know, change that, but I think he respected the fact that I did the time, I never bitched,

I never did anything, and now it was time for me to get out of jail. And when he did, he was like, I'm gonna let you and Sean do this group thing. Okay. So that's your reward. Sort of, yeah. But Sean, I immediately just go into like overdrive on it and start doing shit that he is just like- So you get an opportunity and immediately try to fuck it up. As fast as you possibly can.

Make up for a lot of times. Why don't we just tell the whole arena to suck our thigs? Yeah, I don't think we were trying to fuck it up, but we just had that, we wanted that creative freedom to go do what we wanted. And the thing was, I believe that Vince was starting to see the change happening. And while everybody else was going, they can't do that, they can't say that, the TV network was going, they can't do that, they can't say that,

the TV network was telling us they can't do that, they can't say that. He was being like, man, the fucking crowd is reacting to these guys. Is this around the same time Stern is popping off too? Yes. So it's cultural. Yes, yeah.

As we always said in the documentary, did a brilliant job of displaying, it's like wrestling is this great reflection of culture. Yeah, it did a brilliant job of displaying it. It's like, you know, wrestling is this great reflection of culture. Yeah, it's a mirror of what is happening. Sometimes we're in front of it, sometimes we're just following it, but there's a mirror of sort of what is happening.

And I think about that period of time, like, you know, we were pulling our pants down on TV and telling people, suck it, and all the... Suck the shit out of chef. All the shit. You gotta get a picture of the apron. Or suck the cook. Suck the cook. You're not the cook.

Invited to the cookout. That's how you gotta work. But it was politically correct because we didn't put the you in suck. Yeah. Who knows what it is. Suck the cook. Who knows? Yeah. Stick the cook. Who knows?

But I believe he was starting to see, you know, Austin's a bit edgier, we're a bit edgier. And that stuff's really starting to get a reaction. And it's not following yet, necessarily, with ratings or whatever. But the crowd is telling us that's where we want to go. And again, you're seeing Stern, you know, like the Maury Povich shows and all these shows are like

so edgy, Springer. There's a lot of, I can't believe I'm seeing this. Yeah, I remember there was a show like, was it Hill Street Blues or something like that, where the actor at the time, and I remember his name Dennis Franz, it was a scene where he, you know, he's at his apartment or something and he comes out and he walks down a

hallway and they show his naked ass on TV for like, you know, 30 seconds. Yeah. But it, but it was like, people lost their minds. They were like, how could they do that? We were like, this is funny. I connect the South park and rest. I feel like I connect the South Park and wrestling. I feel like I watch both of those. Yeah, it was like being inappropriate was very cool. There's like rebellious nature happening in media and entertainment.

So there's a moment in time where Vince comes to us now that he's getting so much shit from the net. Probably hip hop too. When is NWA pop group? Same time. Yeah, same time. So it's like every form of media. Everything is rebellious and over the top and like attitude and holy shit. And this is what year? Shock TV. This

is late 90s probably? 96-ish. Like Limp Bizkit, like break shit. Yeah. So 80s is like prim, proper, everybody's got the suit on, hair slick back. It's the overcorrection. And the overcorrection. Yeah. Okay. this is great. The pendulum swings. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it's the overcorrection. And we are the overcorrection. And we're pushing it to an extreme. And two things on that.

There's a moment where USA Network was like, we'd come back from the ring and Vince would be like, you guys are gonna get us kicked off the fucking air. Like USA is pissed. Like you gotta stop this shit. You know, I'm gonna have no choice, but the fire, you guys, right? We're like, whatever. They're going crazy to some degree. You could say whatever. We were thinking whatever. Yeah. We weren't saying it.

And then, um, there was two things on that. One is at one point, USA was out of their mind. We did a show and they sent us a letter that there's a skit that we do. That is, we look like a presidential, um, Clinton had just done. Yeah. I did not have sex with that, you know, sexual relations with that young intern. He had just done that speech. USA network sends us a letter saying,

and it was ridiculous, like, DX has gone too far. So from, here's the controls, from the hours of eight to nine, they can no longer say these words. They can no longer refer to their genitalia. They can no longer say this. These words are acceptable, these are not. Raul was eight to 11, I believe, right?

Yeah. So you had two hours. It was eight to 10. Okay, eight to 10, these are not. Raoul was eight to 11, I believe, right? Yeah, it was eight to 10. Okay, eight to 10, okay. So then it was, you know, during the nine o'clock to 10 o'clock hour, they can say these words, but they can't say these. And we were like, this is ridiculous. And Vince came to us and he was like,

you guys happy now? They put restrictions on us, and this is what we can and can't do, what do we wanna do here? And we were like, this is going to sound fucked up, but let us use that. Let us use that. We'll do a skit tonight to open the show where we say all this shit that's on it. So now you're continuing to blur reality with wrestling and it feels so much more real to the audience because this is a real memo that you got from USA Networks. So we do this presidential almost like this, we're in the Oval Office,

and we do this presidential thing, but it breaks down between Sean and I where he's like, God damn it. I'm like, fuck, you can't say that, dude, shut the fuck up. And you're like, right, we're swearing, they're beeping out the swears and this whole thing. And then he ends it with, and I did not have sex with that young intern. Matter of fact, I was up all night. I was up all night. And that's sort of the skit. And we get, we do it. And, you know, I think Vince was partially nervous and he's a rebel in a Maverick spirit. So I think partially he was like, fuck yeah. And we put it out there and the next week we got a letter back from USA. Congratulations on the ratings. Funny how you used our skit against us, our own thing against us, but it worked.

Congratulations. This is the last they criticized. At this point, does Vince start to realize this thing that you're trying to usher in, which is blending reality and wrestling? Yes. And same with Steve and some other people. Characters start to change. They're open to me not being called Hunter Hearst Helmsley anymore. Like, Hey,

what do you want to be known as? He came to me and was like, you want to use your real name? And I'm like, yeah, not really. I have time and stuff invested in this. Everybody called me Triple H backstage. I was like, let's just break it down to the nickname Triple H and slowly over time, I'll, I'll change the character from what I am to where I want it to be. And he was like, okay. But there also comes a time where now you're talking about like scripted and what he can control

and he can't. Vince is a control freak. So one day we walk into TV and Sean- Oh, I didn't consider that. You could push his hands now, now that we're blending things from the real world and the wrestling world, you could do something in the real world that forces him to incorporate it in a story in the wrestler. So if you're a control freak, you're like, I can't let the inmates run these. This is the ultimate, the inmates from the asylum.

Okay, so how does he handle this? And so he's blending, he's trying to blend his position from being the boss and us doing what we wanna do. And I'll tell two stories about it. So one is that we walk into TV one day and Sean walks in, I walk in and he walks up to me and he's like, have you seen this yet? I'm like, no, what's that? He's like, it's a script. I'm like, what do you mean a script? He's like, that's what they want us to say tonight. I'm like, I read

it and I'm like, it's terrible. And he's like, yeah, what the fuck are you doing that? Wait, you never had scripts before for any of the promos you cut? No, he would give us the premise of what, you know, you need to talk about this or whatever and we'd go out and do our own thing. It's probably easier than memorizing like a whole script. Yeah, sure. But when you're working with multiple people. The businesses have been flowed in this manner, right?

And so, yeah, like, so he gives us his script and Sean and I go to his office and we're like, what is this? And he's like, that's the script for tonight. And Sean's like, it's terrible. And he's like, that's the script for tonight. And Sean's like, it's terrible. And he's like, well, that's what I want you to say. And Sean, because Sean's the elder guy now, so he's the stage man for the group. And he says, he goes, well, fuck,

oh, now that this thing's over, you guys are gonna tell us how to do it? And Vince goes, yeah, that's what I want you to say. And Sean goes, well, it sucks, and I'm not fucking saying it. And Vince goes, well, I's what I want you to say. And Sean goes, well, it sucks. And I'm not fucking saying it. And Vince goes, well, I need you to go out there and I want you to read, say what's on that paper. I want you to read it.

And Sean goes, here's the fucking problem. You think like the honeymooners is funny. We think Beavis and Butthead is funny and you don't even fucking know what that shit is. He said, you're not in touch with these kids and we're not fucking, this is not what we do. And Vince goes, well, I don't care. That's what I want you to say. And this is where Sean, sometimes Sean would do shit. I would think like, how does this guy get away with this without getting fired? Like he really crumpled up the paper and threw it at Vince and bounced it off his chest. He said, why the fuck is saying it?

He walked out of the office and I was like, yeah, I'm with him. He's on the way out, you're like, whoop. And then we went and did our shit. But. Holy shit. That's why. It's so different from the perception. But you have to understand, he sees it working. And what he truly cares about is what works. Yeah. So he's trying to exert power and force, but at the same time, you know, as long as it works, he's going to ride it. Yes. He never... You better go, if you're going to say, fuck you, I ain't saying that, and you're going

to walk in the other room and say, you better crush it and it better work. Otherwise, you're out. See you. Thanks for coming. Sorry, I was going to ask my brother. Do you think the pressure he was putting on you guys was from like the old guard that Wanted him to do some the classic way. Yeah to a degree and also he's fighting that he's the old guard also Yeah, so he's fighting it but he's seeing like this is not ratings are ratings. Yeah, this is goddamn. This is crazy

This is not our business But yet again, right and then one now once he now once he realizes like okay shits on Once he learns it and he applies and we're in this war with WCW where we're getting our ass handed to us Yeah, and he realizes like wow all of a sudden now DX Austin at the front forefront of that but DX Austin, you know all these guys that it's starting to change We're starting to pick up momentum now again. So now he's going with it because he's in a, he's, he's in a war.

So one thing about Vince, he ain't losing. So he'll do anything to win. He fucking sorry. When you look back on that paper moment, the script, is there any party? I just think Vince is such like a kind of a he's playing chess guy. Do you think he's like, I know they're not going to do this. I just want them to rebel. Maybe, maybe, maybe this this is just gonna rile them up and go cut a better There's also this interesting thing with him. I remember one time

we We did a I don't remember what it was about. We did a we did a promo Where I was gonna cut a promo on Vince, okay? This is without him knowing this is what he knows. I'm to cut a promo on Vince. Okay. This is without him knowing. He knows I'm going to cut a promo. But it's live TV. But on Vince? Yes.

He knows I'm going to cut a promo on him and he's going to be out there. Because at this point he's still an interviewer. That's right. He hasn't become the boss. The Montreal thing hasn't happened. So this is important that everybody is understanding right now. So at this point in time there is no blend with his role and his character. People know he's the boss, but he's the interviewer. And we're starting to blend that where we're telling people he's the boss and he runs it,

but he's still interviewing people like he's not. So we haven't fully just gone all in. He doesn't become Mr. McMahon, the boss owner, until the Bret Hart Montreal stuff happens. Yeah. Then he goes fully in on it. Yeah. But so we're about to go out there and cut this promo. And they're telling me you need to cut a promo on Vince. And who is they? Just the creative.

Vince is like, yeah. So when we get out there, you know, Sean's going to go off on me. I need you to go off on me, cut a promo on me. And I'm like, so I go to him beforehand and I'm like, Hey, how hard do you want me to go on you? And he's like, say whatever you want. And I'm like, you sure about that? He's like, say whatever you want. So we get out there. And I don't even remember what I said, but I start to cut the promo on him. And like, Vince, very intense person. So as I start to cut the promo on him, all of a sudden I see his eyes change and his whole demeanor changes. And I'm like, fuck. I just crossed the line here and like,

and uh, but I finished the promo and I can see now he's like that, whatever I said, I don't even remember what it was sort of stuck with him. And so when we came back and he came back a little later, I was like, Hey, you okay with that promo? And he was like, yeah, it's fucking fine. Okay. And he walked away. All right, but what he was basically saying is, yeah, you crossed the line with me,

but it was good, it was good business. It was good business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, if it was good for business, he was all in. Right. And that was all in. Right. And that was the thing. So to go back to the original story, which is the Stone Cold stuff.

Yeah, so I get punished for King of the Ring. I'm not gonna be King of the Ring. I'm out, all that stuff. Who they put in that spot is sort of coming out of similar thing. The ring master, Steve Austin, who's just like this technically gifted wrestler, Steve hates it. Steve goes and pitches to Vince, I don't like this character, I want to do my own thing. Stone Cold Steve Austin starts to form. So they take me out of the spot,

they go with Steve. Steve wins King of the ring and cuts the Austin 316 promo Well, keep in mind he's going against Jake the snake. Yes at the time became very religious Yes, which is a really important thing to understand 100% So there's signs everywhere John 316 in support of Jake Robich because he is very religious because he's sort of reformed evangelical because he is very religious, because he's sort of reformed. Evangelical. Maybe drug addict at the time. So Steve goes out there and cuts this Austin 316 promo, which at the time, I believe, Vince was pissed about and hated it.

You crossed a line into religion. Yeah, like this is terrible. It's all this thing. And I believe they went with the Austin. Everybody else was like, not everybody, but there's a few people who were like, I'm telling you, that was, did you hear the reaction? It was great.

They made the first Austin 316 shirts as a, Vince was like, I make those shirts. I guarantee you none of them sell. I make them. And they did it and then they sold. And Vince was like, this is great. Now you're in with it. But the line was, he goes, yeah, you got your John 316.

Well, Austin 316 said, I just whooped your ass. And it's just off the cuff. If he's wrestling anybody else who's non-religious, he never says it and then he ends up becoming. That is like the defining line, I think, for Stone Cold's character. Yeah. 100%. To this day, Austin 316 shirts are still one of our biggest selling merch.

I think people know Austin 316 more than John 316. Like the world is more aware of Austin 316. I don't know John 316 more than John 316. Yeah. Like the world is more aware of Austin 316. I don't know John 316 to this day. Yeah, I don't know it at all. I started watching for like a few years in the attitude era after Austin 316 and I'm not a Christian kid so I was like, what is that like a time of day that you beat somebody up for? Now it's become a date.

You talk about cultural relevance, right? Oh, unbelievable. Okay, so what's happened? You're watching this transpire, right? That's supposed to be your shot. You're supposed to have that moment. You're supposed to cut some promo. Hunter 316.

Hunter 316. Are you pissed? Is there a part of you that's excited for him? Have you accepted a different fate? Steve was one of the few guys, like Steve, when I started in WCW, he was there, stunning Steve Austin, he's in the middle somewhere. And he was one of the guys that was,

like I'm a new kid coming in the door, and you know, at that time especially, very tough in the business, breaking in, and you know, young and trying to get started. Steve was one of the few guys that would talk to me a lot and come over and say, hey dude, I noticed you were doing this, maybe try that, whatever. Dude, this is, and the parallels with comedy are funny

because I remember every OG comedian that was nice to me coming up. Yeah, that was kind to you, that helped you. Because there aren't a lot. Right, exactly, exactly. There are not a lot. And far more just ignore you or you're in the way or, and you remember those moments with those people.

You just ignored. Yeah. And so Steve was one of those guys. So even when Steve came in and, you know, I liked him a lot and I, it's a weird thing in the business. Like once that wasn't happening for me, I just put it out of my mind. And I was happy for

Steve. As my career progressed later, it's a funny thing how life works. I look back at that now and I think if I wasn't ready, I fucking wasn't ready. I thought I was. You always think you are. You always think you are. You believe that you're ready. And I thought I was. You always think you are. You always think you are. And you believe that you're ready. I was not.

If they would have put me in that role, I wouldn't have cut my version of an Austin 316. I wouldn't have been ready. It would have floundered. And I probably would have. It's a great way of looking at it. Yeah. And I know that now.

I can look back at that and say like I was pissed at the time or I was upset or disappointed. I was using it to fuel me to do other things and become something more. But the truth is, I would have fucked that up, dude, knowing failure, getting comfortable in failure is very liberating. Because when you only know that the rise in the success and you go, you have some success, WCW, then you come over to WWE, and you're starting to rise,

and then all of a sudden you get the king of ring, and then you're online to get the belt, and then you get the belt. You constantly have this monkey on your back where you're like, fuck, what if it all goes away? But once you've accepted it all going away. It's already gone away, and what happened? I just came back from it.

It was fine, exactly. Yeah, I just worked through it. So now you have that courage to be like, okay, I'll go heal. I'll fuck it up all over again. Where I bet a lot of guys, and I'm curious your take on this, but like they're at the top, they're a baby face and they're probably reluctant to go heal because they might go, what if I never get this chance? Yeah, yeah. 100%. Well, you also get guys that are petrified of being a babyface, because if you're a babyface and they start to boo you, you're failing. Oh, that's a different

pressure. If they boo you as a bad guy, you're doing good. It's easy to make somebody pissed off at you. I actually even, yeah, have you even thought about this? Well, and even just think about it this way. If you're trying to piss them off, but they start to like you, that's why you find a lot of cool bad guys. This is the X. Yeah. Like weren't you guys supposed to be kind of,

and then you start bullying the baby faces, and then you guys kind of become baby faces. Well, we were bad guys, and then Sean gets injured and Sean leaves, and I reform the group with these other guys. Right, right. In that moment, we almost, like, they're so excited I reform the group with these other guys. In that moment, we almost like they're so excited to see the group carry on. And the stuff, we just transitioned

who we were doing it to, to the other side. And we, WCW at that point in time is on the attack. We DX do the unthinkable and we go to their show. I go to their show with a fucking tank and my crew and I'm firing shots at the, like fake shots at the building and on a megaphone, you know, yelling at their fans and we're outside and it's like a riot. We go to their shows unthinkable, but it made us like the coolest. The real bad-ass. Yeah. And now like, Hey hey these degenerates that six months ago We hated and and literally Sean and I had gotten to a point where we had some riots in towns because we

People didn't like us so much Now all of a sudden we're like as popular as could be because we're defending the brand guys very quickly We have to interrupt this episode to give some credit for probably the biggest sports fan on the panel, Mark Gagnon. Let's go. For having the only winning bracket in the United States of America. He called the number one seed winning it.

I can't believe it. I mean, how did you put that together? How did you? You gotta understand, this is what makes Mark's madness so amazing, is you never know what's gonna happen. You call it Mark's madness? It is Mark's madness right now. That's what I said, exactly. It is Mark's madness, bro. I just had a feeling. I'm't understand. This is what makes Mark's madness so amazing is you never know what's gonna happen. You call it Mark's madness? It is Mark's madness right now.

That's what I said. Exactly. It is Mark's madness, bro. I just had a feeling. I'm from Florida. I just had faith in the Gators. Now, did you go to stake the leader in global betting in US social casinos to put some money down on this? I put some money down. How much you won? $25. Whoa! Yeah, so I'm up. I'm up. I'm up big.

I was like basically a 10x win. Okay, now that we know that you can literally predict sporting events. Yes. Are there some sporting events? Trump wins third term. I have a good feeling dude. He's running back. So, outside of that guaranteed victory. Yeah, Russia by a mile. What about UFC, what are we at 314? 314. Yeah, what about on VULK? Is he gonna pull it off? Yeah, 100%. So you're going with V Volk a hundred percent second round knockup? Whoa? So that would be considered a top sport to your friend He's like Diego not at Diego Lopez

Because that changes things a little bit depending on who he's fighting. How you know, he's gonna win But I'm saying he's gonna win it just depends who he's fighting if he's fighting so it is Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If it's Diego Lopez, yeah, that's second round knockout. Okay. So Mark is going on second round knockout. UFC 314. So you're saying Diego Lopez is a big fat pussy? Is that what you're saying? No, I'm just comparing to Volk. Compared to Volk, he's gonna lose second round knockout. To me, I don't know. I think he's saying Diego Lopez sucks. Well, let's get a picture of Diego Lopez. Mark talks shit about all the guys that don't speak good enough English to come on the podcast Leon Edwards great guy English both these guys are badass. Yeah, holy shit

He's an absolutely- No, this guy's a level on the spectrum dude. I've seen this guy What's going on yeah, that's a knockout for sure. Okay, so if you were going to bet on, if you're going to bet on UFC 314 and other top sports and political events, use the promo code FLAGRANT for your welcome bonus at stake, man. Go to stake right now. Now let's get back to this interview. I don't want to brush this one part off of you, because I think it's very important in your lore. Shawn has like a bad back injury, right?

Yes. I think he wrestles, who lore. Shawn is like a bad back injury, right? Yes. I think he wrestles, who does he wrestle, WrestleMania is it Stone Cold? Austin. Yeah, he wrestles Austin and then I think Mike Tyson is the ref. Yes. Like massive match. Austin, he puts Austin over, retires for a little bit, right? Because of the back.

Four years. Now, so far at this point in your career, you've always been like with the top guy. Because when I was with Sean, right? I'm on the rise, but I'm in the middle somewhere. Sure. But like you're, you're connected to Sean now or before you were maybe connected to the clique, even though it was backstage, but there was a connection. So this is the first time in your career where now you are at the helm. And you asked Vince and I remember you cut a promo where you like acknowledged Sean, but then you very quickly move on. Move on. Can you just tell me what's going through your head right there?

Cause there's a big transition. So when we were doing DX, Sean and I were, we had, we had wanted to make the group bigger and we liked Road Dog and we liked Billy Gunn. Billy Gunn. X-Pog was actually in WCW at the time. So we had said, Road Dogg was like Jesse James and Billy was rockabilly. I mean, that's terrible, terrible shit. We were like, look, put these guys together as a tag team.

Let them start to do their own thing. And if it starts to get over, when the time is right, we'll put them with us and we'll make the group bigger. But we can build two young stars out of this. They start to work together. It actually starts to work. They call them the new age outlaws and it starts to work on their own. So we're like, we're telling Vince, like, let them do their own thing when the time

is right. We'll pull them in, but let them do their own thing right now. And they're loosely associated with us We would do things like for example They were trying to get going DX was pretty over They wanted to do a program with new age outlaws and the road warriors road warriors didn't want to do it They wanted to work with us We just shot an angle with them on TV where we beat the shit out of we shaved hawks bow hawk off and all this stuff They thought ro Roadwarriors

thought they were getting into a storyline with DX. What we did was as soon as we started to get the heat, we let Billy and Road Dog do it and we kind of stood off to the side and they did all the big damage and they ended up, Roadwarriors ended up in a program with them, which they didn't want to be in. Right. We just, we just backed out of it. So we had had those guys associated with us, but not with us. Shawn gets injured. Shawn goes to WrestleMania, which is like this nightmare. And, you know, at that point in time, Shawn also was legendary drug problems and all this stuff.

But now Shawn goes away. And I think a lot of people thought that was it. I'm done. You know, I'm never going to get past where I am. Whatever. We talked about reef. Like, let's let me take the helm. What is your pitch?

Sort of let's do the same group and let me take the helm. Let's bring in Billy and and Road Dog, the New Age Outlaws, which were kind of over on their own now. Let's put them in it. We'll reform DX. And X-Pac, whose contract he was in WCW. He was bringing him back over. His contract was up and he was dying to get out of there because at that point they were

pretty fucked up, the whole group. So he left. The timing was perfect. So he just signed with us, he popped over, so the night after WrestleMania, whatever it is, I go out there and I cut a promo basically on Shawn saying like, you told me Tyson was good, he wasn't. You told me you had this, don't worry about it kid.

And you didn't, you know, like it was a problem. Well, you're out, I'm in. So now. So you act as if you kick him out of the group you're out, I'm in. So now. So you act as if you kick him out of the game. Yeah, now I'm taking the fucking lead. So now, what do you do if you need to start an army? You go find your friends, you go find your blood, right? You find your soldiers, I bring in the new age outlaws,

I bring in kid and. Are you scared at all? Are you like, maybe, is there like, what is that called, imposter syndrome happening at all? Fuck yeah. Where you're like, they only like Sean. Well, it's the you know, everybody else is saying this isn't gonna work. There's a lot of people this isn't gonna work. It's not gonna work. He doesn't he doesn't have it. Those other guys are they don't have it.

Like, it's not gonna work. It's Sean was the glue. Sean was the key. Sean was this. So what makes it work? We made it work. Because it some people would say that it got even bigger. It got even bigger. Okay. It did. It got even bigger. And that was the thing. So the, the, at that point, you know, and we still have China with me, which she was a glue to that thing, but, um, sort of in that, in that realm, you know, I knew that night when I went out there

to cut that promo with Kid and Billy and all that stuff and restart the group it needed to be. Like I needed to go out there and hit a home run or they're gonna, Vince is very quickly gonna go, everybody's right and move on because he's believing in it. And he wants to see it work so he's giving me the ball. And we just went out there and,

you know, my opinion, we knocked it out of the park and then they went out there and, you know, my opinion, we knocked it out of the park and then they went with it and the rest is history, you know, and, um, it was, it was set up well and, you know, we, we had other people to work with nation of domination was coming up at that point in time with rock and all that stuff. So we had all these other people to work with and it just, it took off and, and, uh, we would just do the crazy shit. and then sort

of as we, that version of the group started to become popular and then we get into the WCW stuff where we go on the attack after them and then it's just game changer. So when you go on the attack, right, now we're blending the worlds again. That's a real business rivalry. This is not scripted storylines here. You guys are beefing and you are attacking their brand. And at this point is Vince completely on with having to blend the worlds,

and now wrestling has to be more real. Yes, and he's also into the whatever it takes. Gloves are off, whatever it takes. So there's no more like protecting the old guard. The old guard is deceased. There's a moment where, when we're gonna do the first attack at WCW, we're going to go because what they were doing was if we were going into an arena, they would book

one of their TV shows like either same time or right before ours so that our ticket sales would tank, right? Like they're booking the club down the street. Yep. Yep. Of course. Trying to keep you, right? And that was what was pissing us off. Well, they were right down the street. It was their show. You roll up with the tank. So we rolled up with the tank. And when we were getting ready to go do it, our show, at that point in time, we were like, they were live like an hour earlier than we were.

like, um, they were live like an hour earlier than we were. And then we were live later. So we go there early, we shoot this stuff and we bring it back. And before we leave, um, we're all standing in a group because the only one that knew about this prior to us doing it was me. I was on a call with Vince and a few other guys on the writing team. Um, Billy and dog and kid didn't know anything about it. me, I was on a call with Vince and a few other guys on the writing team. Billy and dog and kid didn't know anything about it. They came to me like, see a military shit, our logo on it. Like, what the fuck are we doing? And I was like, dude, I can't tell you yet. Vince wants to tell you guys, but I'm telling it's fucking bad ass.

And it all stemmed off of a phone call where we were on and they were like down the road and Vince was pissed and on that phone call was said like, I'd fucking like to drive a tank down there and just fucking go nuts. And he was like, ding, why don't we do that? But anyway, so somebody says when we get, we're in the back getting ready to go and they were like, look, we're going to go down there and do this early, but we're not on the air yet. What if they finished their show and they send a truckload of guys down here to

our show? Like we probably should get extra security and have this all beefed up so they can't. And Vince goes, why? Because if they, if they roll up with a truck full of wrestlers here, he goes, open the door up and let them in. What show you're going to watch? The one with no wrestlers on it? The one with all the wrestlers on it? That's great. And I was like, this is why we're gonna win.

And because what they did when we got there, we tried to go in their building. We went down the ramp and they put the door down and they stopped us. And you're filming this whole time too. We're filming the whole time banging on the door. You're supposed to just want to let us in. Now they look scared. Yeah. You weren't worried at all. Shit getting real because you're hurting their business, their industry. It could.

It could. We had a whole contingency plan of where if they come out, if somebody touches one of us, we had a fake camera and a real camera. If somebody touches one of us, I'm going to go down and because they'll come at me first. I'm going to make such a commotion that everybody will look to me, switch out the cameras, take the real tape and get the fuck out of here. Wow. So you destroy the camera, you smash it, do something. Do whatever I got to do.

Or if they destroy it, it doesn't matter. Do whatever I got to do. Got it. But, but. So you're willing to get your ass beaten. Yeah. But the wrestlers aren't gonna, aren't everybody will talk shit and stuff like that. But for the most part, they know the business too. Yeah. And so what's funny is we're outside doing this.

Kevin Nash is coming back from the gym with Lex Luger and he like looks at him. He's like, does somebody got a tank on Friday side of the business, which really just a Jeep with a cannon on it. But he's like, it's all so hilarious that you called it a tank on the side of the business, which really just a Jeep with a canner on it. It's so hilarious that you called it a tank. Yeah, it's not a tank. It's a Wrangler. It has become a tank over the years, but it was never a tank.

But Kevin said he's stuck in traffic. They're coming back from the gym and now he pokes his head out the sunroof and he's like, looks like Hunter. What are they doing? So he goes in the building now and they used to call their production office the war room. And Kevin goes in the war room and he said like they're all in there talking about the show and stuff. And he goes, he's like looking around the room and he goes, none of you guys are concerned with what's going on outside, huh? And they're like, what are you talking about? And he goes, DX, outside the building,

shooting a cannon off with a loud horn and thousands of fans all around him. Like, none of you worried about that shit? And they were like, what? And then, you know, that's how they got informed of it. Hilarious. Wow. And then that's when we started coming down the ramp and that's when they shut them.

Do you think other wrestlers in WCW knew it was over at that point? I don't know. To me that's like, oh so. I think at that point, it's a funny thing. We were scratching and clawing. I think for the most part the guys in WCW were less concerned about the company and more concerned about it. They're paying me a ton of money and I don't work much. So it's interesting, it's like the incentive structures makes you wanna put other guys over, and this might also be your personality, but even when you're telling these stories,

you're talking about putting other guys over, which seems like the right thing to do for the business. It's a very rare thing in a narcissistic endeavor, which is entertainment, that there's someone who's going, how else can I put these different people over? What can I do? You even talking about the different groups, right? Yeah, you're going to bring them into DXP. They're not ready. Once we, at this point, we'll do it. WCW's incentive structure is just show up. You don't have to worry about the business at all.

And at that point, it had started to become, it doesn't even matter if you show up. Your pay is guaranteed. I'm injured. You fast forward, not long after that, because this was, Austin was champ and Steve and I wrestle in Chicago at the Rosemont, which is now Allstate Arena. And then the United Center is on the other side of town, right? They were at the United center the week before us saying what I'm talking about. Them booking, right? We had booked Rosemont. They booked United center, like the week before us, Steve and I wrestling, I made event that night. We probably went like 40 minutes. We like, we give them a full on pay-per-view,

like, cause it, you know, Rosemont sold out, like we're, we're all in delivering on everything we do. And, uh, so that night we go back to the hotels, a lot of fans there. And, uh, I'll never forget people telling us like, dude, you guys killed it. WCW was here last week. We went to that show, like six of the top 10 guys didn't show up. Wow. You know, the main event was Goldberg versus big show, big show. I mean, uh, the giant at the time giant walked out smoking a cigarette. They got in the ring.

Goldberg kicked him in the gut, gave him the suplex and the whole match was like 15 seconds. They just didn't, they didn't care. Right. We were fighting tooth and nail. Like we're, we're turning this thing around and they didn't care. And were just they were phoning it in and I think at that point Shit was so miserable backstage that they were just they were phoning it in Wow And and that's you know, that's the difference right like at the end of the day So, you know we were getting to a place where at that point This this might take a little time but we're gonna win this.

We'll crush these guys. Wow. I wanted to ask about character development. You've mentioned a few different wrestlers that you've kind of been like, oh yeah, their gimmick at that time wasn't that good. And even in your own career, there's so many different iterations before we get to Triple H, the character that we know now. So I'm curious, how do you develop a wrestling character,

find the wrestling voice, the gimmicks that work, and if a young wrestler came to you today, like, hey, here's how I wanna develop, like, what advice would you give them? It's part of the difficult aspect of what we do is you teach somebody to do the moves, you can teach them when to do them, you can kinda teach them crowd psychology,

but the charisma and who you are, your character, it's like, you know, in comedy, everybody's got like, not everybody, some people just very funny. Yeah. Other people have to have a shtick. Yeah. Right. And a gimmick of what they are. And no one can really tell you like, Hey, you know, like when I was a kid, Bobcat, Gulfway was like a big thing. But he's like the crazy voice and all that shit. Like nobody could go to him and go, you know what you should do? This will work. You should do is you should do to affect your voice and do all this crazy shit and stuff like that. Right. That was just him. Um, it's really hard to tell somebody how to go do their thing for us. As we were

pulling into the attitude era, I say this a lot, Taker used to say to me all the time, as we got to be friends, he would, like we'd go out or whatever and then, end of the night, he'd almost always say to me, dude, when you figure out how to be yourself on camera, you're gonna make a fortune. And I would always think to him,

what the fuck does that mean? Is this while you're wearing the riding pants and you have the bow in your hair? Some of it, yeah. Even then after, right, when we start to, like that was kind of the him saying like, like DX was way more us, but I still wasn't fully like, I was trying to get out of the Hunter Hearst Helmsley stuff. I didn't feel like it was right for me just to one day stop and be something totally different.

You have to build to it. Yeah, so when we get to the end of DX, the run as Baby Faces, there's a moment where I go to Vince and I'm like, I wanna out of the group. And he was like, why? I said, I want to have the group. And he was like, why? I said, I want to turn heel. Austin is white hot.

Rock is on his way up, but he's going to be a babyface, a white made babyface. There's no... So you felt it early on. He's so charismatic. Yeah. There's no way he doesn't become that babyface. We need the Darth Vader in this, right? You got two good guys. This is so smart. You need the bad guy.

I can, I'm confident enough in myself. I can be that bad guy, but I got to get out of this group and I got to make the shift. Now that you're the other guys were like, what do you do? Yeah. Yeah. Because you also white hot. You're like, why would you leave this? Don't ride this into the ground. We're making a fortune on merch and everything else. Don't do this. Don't do it. I was like, but this is not what I want to do.

So how, because you understand the only way that you're going to get those big main events and then maybe get the belt is that you have to play something opposite that is super white hot right now. It's not even necessarily, obviously everybody wants to be champion at some point in the time of their career or something like that, but it's not even about that. It's about being on top.

Yeah. Right? Like you don't have to be champion. You just got to, how do you break through to be like the undertaker, one of the guys, you know, and that where your shit resonates and sticks and stays generationally and all that stuff. Like how do you get into that place? And I knew for me it wasn't, while what we were doing was amazing, that wasn't,

that wasn't the setup for me. When I leave the group, now it's a full transition. Now I go to trunks. Now I take my hair down. I wet my hair. I start growing a beard a little bit like I start to grow now I become what I always envisioned myself being as a performer. Yeah, and I sort of realized like takers words Were when you can be yourself when you can just go out there and be authentic Yeah but the hardest thing in the world to do when a red light is on you and there's 10,000 people there is go out and just be you because it's because if you fail is you if you fail is you crushing and it's it's so um it's a scary proposition yeah you're naked out there yeah characters like a security blanket of course if you don't like that you don't like if they hate the character they hate the character they don't hate you yes when you start being

yourself 100 and so that know, and that's still even then that becomes a transition of getting there over time. But it's, it's, it's a scary proposition. But I was all in on, I want to take that gamble and I want to see if I can get to be that guy. Okay. How many other wrestlers, and now that you're the boss, understand the game like you understood it at that time and are coming to you and asking similar questions. So there's a lot of people that do. I just had this conversation with Sean and this will piss off everybody.

I just had this conversation with Sean and I had to take her as well within the last year. Because we were talking about like people helping to guide the business into the next generation and writing and storytelling and all that stuff. And I said it to Sean first, I said, Sean, think about your career, everybody that you've run up against in your career, how many people would you say absolutely 100% get it?

Not a portion of it, not a piece of it, like get it, get the modes of storytelling, get the how to get the most out of something, get all aspects of what we do. How many people would you say, and he's like, well, I'm wrong, man. I bet you I can count them on one hand. Right. And that's, that's considering greats in our business and all that stuff.

And he's like, I bet you I could count on one hand. I said, I think it would be a struggle to fill up all the fingers on one. Right. Like, um, it's, it's a different thing and people don't get it. The amount of factors that go into creating something, getting a character, doing all those things, and then it's, it's easy to look at it. And this is all stuff that I learned over, you know, 25 years. What are they?

What are they? Bring it down. Like, it's, it's, it's just so many things. It's hard to even put into context because like, every, everything matters. So why don't you just do this with this guy? This would get him over. Well, you can't do this at this time because this guy is doing this

and this doesn't work with that and this guy got injured and that takes away from this. Oh, by the way, they hate each other. They won't work together. It won't be good. These factors don't work. I'm also getting pressure from the network to do this and I don't have this and we can't do that time wise.

Right, there's all these factors of, you're building out this elaborate set of dominoes set up and then if one of them comes out, five, you start all over. They all affect each other. And you don't think about it that way. So the amount of thought and being able to see ahead of what's going to happen next is incredibly difficult.

And that doesn't mean you're right all the time. It doesn't mean that at all. You could be wrong. You can understand all that, still be wrong 80% of the time, you know, whatever. But it's the feel. Pat Patterson was one of the time, you know, whatever. But it's, it's the feel. Pat Patterson was one of the greatest Finnish guys in our business. And, you know, the generation that was just slightly before me of talent that came in when I first came in was all like, you

know, as they're teaching you things, they'd be like, let me teach you something here. I learned this from Pat, right? But I was fortunate enough to sit under Learning Tree, that was Vince. And when I say Learning Tree, I mean the things of what to do and what not to do, right? I was fortunate enough to sit around Pat, where when Pat was there, every day when we'd finish a production meeting, Pat would be like, what are you gonna do? I'm gonna get something. You want to meet me in the stands, we'll talk about this show. We'd start putting shit together and like, I'm learning all these from all these people. And you know, Pat would always say the wrestling business isn't here. It's here. Right? And he was the first one to say that to me would be like, think about everybody, you know,

in the business. How many people feel it here? Not many. It comes out of here, but the guys that really feel, he's like, they're few and far between. I imagine those are the guys that have the greatest longevity in the business. It is, it is because they can feel when the ebb and flow and change and move and do all those things. And Pat would say to me all the time, there's a lot of guys here that are amazing.

They don't feel, this isn't where it comes from from them. And he, the first time he told me that he said, you feel it. So you get this feeling you're like, I can be one of those guys. This is my pathway to being one of those guys. How do you set that story in motion? You can't just go, I'm leaving the group. There needs to be a reason to leave the group. So it's a little convoluted at the time, right? In that moment in time, like I sort of, Vince has now become a full-on character. He's got a faction called the Corporation. I turn on DX to go with the Corporation,

but the Corporation's like this hodgepodge of all these different people, and it kind of really doesn't work out well. It just becomes this mess of stuff. So you're just trying to navigate. It's like, I pop out of this thing that's working and I pop over here, but now I've, it's like going back. A lot of times people think that that stuff,

like you're here, so then you move into something else and you just go here. You might have to take a step back. Very rarely works that way. You're here and I want to get here, but over here, you've got to go here and then climb back up to that. Sometimes it can work where you go right there, but more times than not, I feel like whenever there's a complete shift in what you do, you go back and start

over at the beginning. Is this the Stephanie storyline? This comes into it a little bit later. So which is the Stephanie one? The Steph storyline. a little bit later. So which is? The Stephanie one? The Steph storyline. Okay, so you're already there. So I sort of get the opportunity. I'm put in that position where I'm world champion. You know, this is at a point in time where they're

flipping titles around a lot too. It's just different time in the business. But I'm in that sort of mix where I'm being seen in the, the Austin rock conversation, the taker conversation. I'm in that mix. I've been, I've been champ. I can't remember if I was champ once or twice at that point in time, but, but I'm champ and Steph, it's a, it's a funny thing because people's thoughts about how this happened are different. I have this really strong creative relationship with Vince. I know he has a daughter, but I've never even really met her.

And then she starts to be around the company, but I'm not working with her much or anything like that. But she's in a storyline with another wrestler, this guy Tess, and they are engaged to be married. The lead writer at the time, he leaves the company in the middle of this. And I've heard him say that he knew exactly where the storyline was going, just nobody else did. So when he leaves, there's like this giant gap where like Vince's daughter's engaged with this guy. To be honest, I hadn't even been paying that much attention to that storyline. It's just concerned with my shit more often, right? And I had a great creative relationship with

Vince, but so they so don't know where to go with this thing that they've announced this wedding's going to be on TV. They have to do a thing where she gets hit in the head with a garbage can and loses her memory and doesn't remember who the fiance is To just to buy some time right so they can try to figure out how to get out of this thing But there's gonna be a wedding on raw on wrong. Yes Were they involved in real life no, no, no, okay, it's just were you guys at the time no I didn't even know nothing. Yeah. Yeah, but so I know guys at the time involved at all? No, I didn't even really know. So there's nothing. Yeah. Yeah.

But so I know they're trying to figure out a way to get out of this wedding thing. Yeah. And meanwhile, I'm in a storyline with Vince where Vince has made it like he is. He's a baby face at this time, right? He is. And he has said like, I can never have another chance at the title. Like he's so pissed off at me. He bans me from getting world title shots. And, but, so we're in the middle of the storyline. So one day I go to him and I'm like, this is thinking about our shit, right? Like, and how do,

how do we get back to getting me in that mix after what we've done? And he's like, yeah, I don't know. I'm thinking about that too. And I'm like, well the thing with Steph, I said, well, what if she, you know, right before she's going to get married, she has a bachelorette party, blow it out like some big story on TV, she has a bachelorette party, but I show up and I'm, you know, different timeframe, I'm making your drink. And while she's unconscious, I said, you have it in Vegas. I drive her through one of those wedding chapel things. I end up, like nobody knows about this, but I've filmed all of it.

And now when the wedding happens, right when they say, speak now forever, hold your peace, I come out and I'm like, hold on a second, she can't marry him because she's married to me. And I show the footage and holy shit, I've ruined your life. And now we create this storyline where like, if in order to get your daughter like this wedding annulled

and so she can marry the other guy, you and I have to fight. And if I beat you, I get the world title shot. If you beat me, I annull the wedding. Yeah. And he's like, God damn, I love it. So that's what we do. And this starts Steph and I now. So originally it's just supposed to be a one-off thing. We'd shoot the video in Vegas. Yeah. And The video is hilarious when you are mouthy. It's so ridiculous. You going, I do.

It's utterly ridiculous, but it just works right. And this is the footage of me out there telling this story. So, originally, it's supposed to be just one off. Look at Stella Sellen. She's a great actor. Yeah, she's great. So it's supposed to be this one off thing that makes us have the match. I go over, I get my world title shot. She moves on, does the rest of the stuff with the testing, but at least gets them out of the wedding. Right. And now it's the decision whether he's

going to marry or not. The first time she goes on TV after this happens, like this is the cynical world we live in. She goes out on TV and I'm sitting at guerrilla position next to Vince where we run the show from. And like I'm not working. I'm in the show. At this point, I'm just still a character. I'm helping out heavy with creative and helping produce stuff, but I'm really just as a character I'm helping out heavy with creative and helping produce stuff. But I'm really just as a character on TV and she goes out to cut the promo and I'm sitting next to Vince and she goes out there and they are booing. Yeah. It's brutal. Oh, and this is unexpected completely.

Well, oh, that's right. They're calling her like a slut. Like chanting slut. And she's trying her hardest to be like, yeah, to be this sympathetic baby face and all this stuff. And Vince taps me and he's like, Hey, this is so good. That's crazy. 20,000 people call your daughter a slut. Yeah. This is money, right? And, uh. Sorry. What are you thinking in that moment?

I'm a little bit like, like, holy shit, like she's got mega heat. He looks back and he goes. And I'm like thinking to myself like, wow, there's, there's like, there's legs to this thing, like that we hadn't, I, at least I hadn't considered, you know, I was just like, just trying to get to my storyline with Vince and we throw this thing out there and there's legs on it. And now we're like, Holy cow. So then, you know, the next week she goes out there as well, all this stuff. So then Vince comes to me and he's like, what if she, like one of the worst possible thing happens is like she turns on me. We have this match at pay-per-view right at the moment in time where holy shit, Vince might actually

do this and beat Triple H and who turns on him but his own daughter to join his worst enemy in the moment of time. Phenomenal. And she comes with me and he pitches it to me and he's like, and then like I'm so distraught, my world is so turned upside down, I leave. I leave for a while and you guys run the show like as like the boss, like she's the boss's daughter. She's got all the stroke and now you become this maniacal like tyrant

tyrant talent that's, you know, world gets the world title and it's just like out of control firing people and just whatever, you know, and that's kind of starts to think. But so as this happens, like, I don't know, Steph at all, sort of. Sort of. Yeah, well, I don't, but we're working together. Right? So now our storylines are coming. We believe you. But I don't. And the thing is, she's a sponge for the business, right? Steph is like, she wants nothing but to be in this business.

So, sorry, have you talked to her about that moment and what she was feeling? Is she like her dad where she's like, she's thinking the same shit or is she like this? She knows the game. Yeah, she's like, oh my God, this is the greatest thing ever. Like they're blowing the shit out of me. She's very savvy. She's one of the few people, and I would say this as well, and people will think, oh, that's your wife.

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The promo where you go. And the question isn't if we consummated the marriage. How many times? It's how many times. Are you riffing? You're feeling the audience and going for it? I didn't even think about that line before I got out there and I was like, oh, I gotta say something about consummating the marriage or whatever. I'm talking to her dad. What is the worst possible thing I could say? Does he react at all when you say, like, do you see an eyebrow raise or anything?

No, I mean, he reacts in the ring, but like, he's so good. And now like we're, we're full on attitude era, like where this is like, he's all in and he's full character. And yeah, I mean, so like, I know, like, as we're doing it, I'm like, this is so good. And like, he knows it's so good. He is crazy. Now all the attention is on this storyline in the biz or there's still other things. There's other things going on as well. But this becomes a thing and the sort of the McMahon Helmsley era becomes like the main crux of the story. Like a fire McFauley, I end up in a match with him and then get him retired and make know make him retire and just all this all this stuff

happens but sort of at that point in time this is how Steph and I get to know each other because she's like if I have a match she just wants to be there to hear how it all gets put together and how the how that's all going to work and everything so she's around all the time right and what's a funny part of the story is I'm talking to my mom one day on the phone and she's like what's a funny part of the story is, I'm talking to my mom one day on the phone and she's like, what's going on with you and that Stephanie? And I said, what are you talking about? And she's like, I don't know. Like you're not that good of an actress.

I can see it in your eye. Like what's going on there? And I'm like, this is Vince's daughter. Like fucking nothing's going on. Like don't be, don't be crazy. Presumptuous here. Right? I don't know this at the time, but Steph's mom says to her like, what, what's

the deal with you and Triple H? Oh wow. And she's like, what are you talking about? It's one of the boys, nothing. And she's like, I don't know. I see it in your eyes the way you're looking at it and stuff like that. Like, you sure there's not something that, you know, like my mom, her mom both see it on TV, but neither one of us. Dad got no clue. No, no, but he's a funny guy.

Steph will say this and I say this. I believe he started to see it and I believe he actually liked it and was trying to push us at that point. And then there comes a time when we do get together and then there's a time when he takes that away, like it's going to cause too much problem in the business, and you guys can't, you can't see each other. Even though you guys are already seeing each other at the time.

So now that people know, do people know in the real world that you guys are seeing each other at this point? Yeah, I don't, I'm not like, I don't remember the exact timing of it, but yeah, they're starting to sort of get it. And then how, what's the storyline for tearing you guys apart? There isn't, we're still in a storyline together. Right.

But he's just saying personally, put the cops on the outside. You got it. You guys can't, you can't do this. And did you guys listen as good obedient soldiers? We tried. And then it just, you know, like when you get one something, you guys gotta go get it. And so we try. And I honestly think at that point, like, you know, as you asked earlier, like, is he just saying this to try to see what you'll do? Yeah. I believe there's a lot of that

that he was like, no, you guys can't see each other. Let's see if he really likes my daughter. Let's see what he's willing to go through to get it. And, you know, for me at the time, I'm sort of gambling everything on, you know, when people say like, oh, well, that's how he got the position and all that shit. Like, no, I'm not fucking, I'm like, I'm gambling. If this doesn't work out, I'm fucked. Like I'm done. But at the same point in time, it's like, you know, when you meet the right person, you gotta go for it. You meet the right person. And yeah, it becomes this. Yeah, it's just this crazy time. And so we're kind of doing this shit on TV and, you know, and now everybody's attitude towards me is changing. Well, I'm already sort of, you know,

I'm going to production meetings before this ever happens. I'm going to production meetings. I'm creative. I'm having creative input with Vince. I'm, you know, people see me all day long. I'm with Pat Patterson talking over finishes and helping with their shit, which they don't necessarily see as a good or bad thing, but like, they just see, so there's a lot of, whether it's jealousy or whatever that is, right? Now, when the rumor starts that,

hey, he might be seeing Steph, that's a whole fucking different ball game of. So you're saying other wrestlers were starting to get jealous? Yes, and I don't know if jealous is the right word, but I have a mega heat with everybody. I think the perception, if I'm an insecure entertainer is, which I am,

he's trying to weasel his way into. I'm trying to get with Vince's daughter so that I'm the guy. So that you can be the guy. Okay, so you were a character, but how did you start having so much influence in the creative? Like when did they tap you?

So as I was saying a little bit ago, the guy that's gonna leave, the creative guy that's gonna leave. So at that point in time, I was already having, you know, I was talking a lot with Vince. Sean and I would talk a lot with Vince on the phone about creative directions, and he'd ask our opinions about different things here and there. And so I already had that relationship. Sean gets hurt, goes away. Shortly thereafter, the other writer leaves. When he leaves, I go to Vince and say, I just remember the TV that we were at where the guy left that day.

He just didn't show up that day. He goes work for WCW. And as we're getting ready to leave the show, I go to Vince and I say, hey, man, I know how hard this creative shit is. And when you're trying to do it by yourself with nobody to bounce shit off of, I can't imagine how hard that is. And he just left you high and dry. I said that we were done that show. I was going home for like three or four days. We would do like 18 day loops on the road or 10 day loops and then go home for three

or four and then back out on the road for another 18 or whatever. So I was getting ready to leave to go home for like three or four days. And I said to Vince, um, I said, I know how difficult that's going to be. I said, I ain't got shit going on. I didn't have a girlfriend or whatever. I was just going home. And uh, I said, um, if you need to bounce as I don't for whatever it's worth, if you need to bounce some ideas off of somebody, I'm going to be home. And I sort of almost was, after I left,

I was kind of like, that was fucking stupid. I don't know, I should have said it. It was kind of embarrassing, like he needs my fucking help. But I said it and left, and then I went home, and I don't know, it was the next day or day after or something like that, home. My phone rings, and it's his office, and he just like talked to you,

and I get on the phone with him. He's like, hey, the other day you said uh if I needed to bounce some shit off somebody and you know you were home you got any time right now? And I was like yeah. What does he hit you with? He just started hitting me with creative stuff hey we're thinking about doing this in the show and it wasn't my shit it was just general creative and he was just asking me my opinion and then. But by this point you've already proved to him that you look out for the business. You're trying to put other people on. I think so, and I think he also just sees,

for whatever reason, I have a knack for the creative. You understand him. I see the bigger picture. And... You are the game. Yeah, I guess. And then, so then shortly thereafter, he comes to me and he's like,

hey, what do you think about coming to the production meetings at TV? Like when we get to TV, coming to the production meetings. And I was like, I mean what do you think about coming to the production meetings at TV? Like when we get to TV, come into production meetings. And I was like, I mean, if you want me to, and he was like, look, it's a pain in the ass. You know, like call time for a talent might be one o'clock production meeting might be a 10 o'clock. So now you're there all night.

We're coming from another town, right? So if I'm, if I'm driving five hours from the other town to get to this town, now I got to be there at 10 a.m, not one, right? So different world. He's like, I understand that'll be tough, but man, I love to have your input in there. And I'm like, okay. So to me, like, I'm like, well, if he's opening that door, I'm not turning that shit down. So, you know, I'd ride over to the next town with everybody. And then in the morning I'd be like, Hey guys,

I gotta be in the building early today. I'm going to go over there at 10 o'clock. They'd show up at one. I'd already have been in the production meeting. So, and once Pat sees me now in the production meetings, I think at first they were like, why is he in there? You know, and then once we all start to get into it, Vince is really good when he wanted to like include you in shit. So we'd be in the production meeting and he'd be like, what do you think? Me? Oh. Do you remember the first thing you pitched? I don't. But I just give my opinion or whatever. And I'm sure I came across as fucking to everybody else, egotistic, what the fuck does he know? Probably said a bunch of really stupid shit, but it was enough for him to say like, he's contributing here. And then Pat started to sort of like, Hey, let's, you know, I got,

I got these finishes. I got to go over. You want to come help me with those. Did it make you a better wrestler being involved in the person side? Yeah. Because all the shit that you don't, you just think about your side of it. Yeah. And then you don't think about all the other side of it and the things that

you don't need to happen or how they're shot or camera angles or how they're thinking about this and really what's important. Oh, this is important. It's not even about me in that moment in time. I just need to be small over there and not be seen. That needs to be the big focus. You just think totally. It's a 360 approach as opposed to just a little slice. It allows you to get out of your own way. Yeah. Your little slice is different than all of it. Timing wise, is this before quad injury?

Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, that doesn't, my quad injury is like 2000. It's just so funny the lore around you because like as I'm doing research, there's different stories. One story is during the quad injury, you cozy up to Vince and that's where you really start to soak up the game, but you were already doing it prior. Oh, long before that.

Long before that. So my quad injury happens 2001 and I completely, my left quad completely like exploded, right? My capsule exploded, everything. So when I get to Birmingham where Dr. Andrews at the time is like, he is the orthopedic guy for like, you know, everybody. So I go see him and you know, one of the things they tell me is like, well, you've won, you have to surgery on this right away. Like he was like, I don't even know how you finished this match.

Like you have nothing attached. Like it's a, but you shouldn't even have been able to stand up. Right. Um, and, you know, we finished that match and everything. And then he's telling me like, look, um, there's nobody in a contact sport like this, an impact sport that's ever returned from this injury. If you do it, you'll be the first one. And to this day, he still uses it as a case study. So, um So he said, I'm going to put the pieces back together, but whatever you can do after that is going to be on

you. So I never left Birmingham, Alabama for nine months. I checked into the Embassy Suites Hotel, I went and had my surgery. I would rehab like the best, this guy, Kevin Wilkes, like the best rehab guy on the planet, especially at that time. I thought, well, if I'm going to be able to do this, I got to be with the best. So I checked into the embassy suites hotel. I lived there for nine months. I would go every day. I would go start and eat breakfast in the hotel.

I'd go to rehab. The second they'd be open, I'd roll in. I'd stay till lunch. I'd go to lunch with Kevin and those guys, the therapists. I'd come back. I'd do a second session in the afternoon when they'd get done at like five or six. I'd go to the hotel. I'd drink a shake. I'd drive to the gym. I'd have some of the van take me to the gym across the street on like a fucking wheelchair at first. I'd go, I'd train my upper body. I'd go back to the hotel. I'd eat something. I'd watch wrestling tapes until I got tired. I'd go to sleep. I'd get up in the morning and do it again. The next day I did that for nine months.

All on your dime or was this WWE? WWE covered my hotels. I pay for my surgery, all that stuff. That that's one great thing about the company. They cover everything, but the commitment aspect of it is I didn't, I didn't, uh, I wasn't taking a chance on not coming back. Okay. So, but at that point, so I'm like, I'm not even really talking to Vince at all. That's yeah. Like, so during this point, like, are you not part of creative meetings? Are you still consulting in any way? What's up with Stephanie? Are you guys away from each other? So what happens is this kind of now puts Steph and I into a position where Are you still consulting in any way? What's up with Stephanie? Are you guys away from each other? No.

So what happens is this kind of now puts Steph and I into a position where this is where we really start to have a relationship. Because she comes to see me in Birmingham. Obviously, we have a relationship. She cares about me. I can't remember if we were at that part supposed to not be together, whatever, but I'm in Birmingham. She's coming to see me. Yeah, that's where it all locks in.

Like she's basically, whenever she has off days, she's coming down to Birmingham to spend a day or two with me, not every week, but like here and there when she can. And, um, you know, she helped get me through it. Okay. So real quick. So during this time, my understanding is the chatter around the wrestling world while you're taking some time away is because you've been healed, you've been baby faced, but you've been like hated and some of the hate was so real because you're mixing like real life and wrestling that like it turns into real life hate towards you, a lot of people.

To some degree. To some degree. My understanding is during this time, the audience kind of like flips and they start going, wait a minute, you know, this guy Triple H is really putting the time, he's dedicated to the craft, so we really miss him, we really love him. And you're not doing anything, you're not doing any spots or anything like that, but there's this real like lust to have you back. Is this accurate? Yeah. So I go away. When I leave, I'm one of the most hated guys in the business. We had just done a thing where Stone Cold wanted a refresh on his character. So he turns heel and we're together and we do this thing we call a two-man power trip.

And it's us just beating the shit out of everybody. And like we have, he's like world champ. I've got the Intercontinental title at one point. We're tag champs, right? And we're actually, the match where I get injured, we drop the tag titles to another team. That night, that's when I get injured. So, but we're on this killer run and we're both like the worst heels there. But I was already that sort of top deal.

And I leave. Nine months later, when I come back. I want to talk sort of top deal. And I leave. Nine months later when I come back. I wanna talk about this match specifically because my understanding is that the Chad in the wrestling world is we really miss him and maybe we're not giving him a fair shake. We really love this guy. And now there's like a real excitement about you coming back

and then MSG is when you come back and it's not even a match. You're announced that you're just gonna come back and cut a promo. What I've been told is by wrestling enthusiasts is that when you come out, it's the biggest pop they've ever heard at Madison Square Garden. For me, it was the biggest pop I'd ever heard,

but it was also me, so like, you know. This is what I'm just saying from wrestling enthusiasts, what they said is when you come out, and again, you're leaving the company as the biggest heel Nine months later. You haven't done anything. It's not like you're cutting promos. There's nothing going on. So it's pure just you know What I kind of missed that guy. He was really great for the business. Do you have it? I think it's I can we watch this I think it's Darth Vader leaving the franchise for a couple And then you realize it was really nice having that bad guy around.

And then he comes back and you're like, oh my God. Right? Like, yeah. Can we watch this? So what's going through your head? You haven't said any... So, so pause it just for a second. So understand as a performer, it doesn't matter how big you are.

You go away for nine months. When you come back... You don't know if they'll even remember you. There's like... Exactly. yeah, you're like, well, they care. You're scared to death. And it's funny. I'm backstage at Madison Square Garden and Austin comes up to me. Now Austin had been out for a long period of time with his broken neck and all that stuff. And Austin comes to me and he goes, what's going on kid? And I said, uh, just getting ready for this and he goes you freaking yourself out you think they're not going to remember so he already knows they're not going to care and I said yeah I said men I don't fucking I don't want crickets you know like fuck I don't know when he goes dude you're

gonna blow the roof off this place he said have you heard them every time they mention your name they're going ape shit they've been chanting fucking triple H all night long. Oh, I didn't know that. So throughout there's this excitement. There's a thirst. He's like, you're fine. This is going to be off the charts. But still I'm like, I hope so. I really hope so. And I'm standing at gorilla position right outside the curtain. Like I'm next. So they play a thing. The studio, this kid, Adam Panucci,

who's an incredible editor, did a package for me about my return. And it was set to U2's Beautiful Day. And he puts the, so he builds this video, it's incredible. They put that out, it runs for the weeks leading up to, and then I'm gonna return at Madison Square Garden. Which when Vince told me, hey, we heard you're gonna get your clearance

and all that stuff, he said, I said, yeah. And he said, what do you think about returning at the garden? And I was like, holy shit. Like to us, that was the biggest of the big. Like Madison Square Garden was like our WrestleMania. Also the place where you had the controversial moments. That's what I, yeah, it's this beautiful full circle. I the place where you had the controversial moments.

So many moments at the garden. And so I'm like, Jesus Christ, that's like a storybook thing. Right. So they do these videos. But we get to that moment and I'm standing at that curtain while they go to, so they play a thing, they play that video and it says up next, the game, right? The crowd just roars, they're chanting all during the commercial and I am standing like a fucking idiot at that curtain thinking like, please don't be silent, please don't be silent. Like, you know, I'm petrified, like I'm going to walk out there and they are not going to give a shit, you know? And then, you know, and then, and then the music hits and, you know, you just,

you're just so inside your own head that it's, it's crazy. And, you know, hit it. At this point, I'm just so, I am out of my mind geeked. Like almost uncontrollable so. That's awesome. Now for me this like even just riling up the crowd like this is foreign to me. I'm used to being, I did it when we were in DX obviously I'm used to doing it but to me this is, I've been a bad guy, I've been the bad guy now for so long. Like this is. And how does your quad feel?

This is just all emotion to me. Is your quad healed up? It's healed. You know, it's a funny thing that you, you can be 100%, you can practice, you can get on the field, you can do all the stuff until you go out there live, you just don't know. So the first few matches it was a bit...

But you're not even doing anything, you're cutting a promo. This is a promo and Kurt Angle is going to come out, I do a little something. I'm basically just cutting a promo saying I'm back and I'm entering myself into Royal Rumble. And so... Are you supposed to be a heel at this point? I think we all knew that there's no way I'd come back and I'm a bad guy. And the thing for me is I've never been a good guy without a crew around me.

So now you have to do it. So now I have to do it. And I'm like, I'm not comfortable as a good guy. It's foreign to me. It's almost like I have to go into the ring and think, what would I want myself to do if I was the bad guy? If I was the bad guy and I was working with me, what would I want me to do? Yes, yes, yes, yes.

You know what I mean? I have to like retro. It's another step in my process because the business at this point is not me thinking, it's a feel thing. And you're just kind of doing what's right. And I almost have to think about it in a way of like, what would I want my reaction to be? And so I'm not comfortable and it's, I'm just not comfortable as a good guy.

Are you recutting the promo in your brain based on how much like support you have? This I honestly, I know I'm going to walk out there and I'm going to say I'm back. Yeah. I'm entering myself in the Royal Rumble and then Kurt's going to come out. I have zero like I remember thinking about it. Like I just almost can't even lay this out word for word because I'm, I feel like I'm going to be so emotional when I get out there, whether excited or whatever that is holding back tears a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just going to be so overwhelmingly emotional, uh, given everything that I went through to come back that I don't know I'm going to be able to remember it anyways. So I just know I'm back. I'm entering the rumble, you know, and then the Kurt ship. And so I just kind of say what I'm saying. I don't even really. Can we go to it? Good thing you had the water bottle. If the tears came, you could have just. And it's a funny thing is that you don't want to show that emotion, but the truth is the crowd

just wants the emotion. They want the real shit. Oh, here it is. You can see it. So they're going crazy. Yeah. That's fine. You can't even talk.

That's fine. You bring the mic to your mouth and they go even crazier. Yeah. But I also know I got to get off the air because I think I'm the last thing in the show. So I can't go too long. Yeah. Just in case you've forgotten, let me tell you just who the hell I am. I am the game!

Woo! I'm the game! Aw, just great. Yeah. Aw, just great. The bad guy interrupts and then I beat, you know, Victor. Oh, just great. Bad guy interrupts and then I beat, you know, big turtle out. All right, guys, let's take a break for a second.

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Yeah. Right? But that's societal utility. Yeah. Going against the man. Yes. You get to be a bad guy because there's a worse guy that you're going to confront. Yeah.

Yeah. So, it's a little bit different, but you always hear the stories about the top sort of good guy in the business. And there's just, because it's all about you, as a bad guy, your job is to make the other guy look good. It's to keep yourself alive doing it, keep yourself hot doing it, keep yourself all that stuff. But the truth is the biggest reaction that you get as a bad guy is when you give the good guy the comeback.

Oh, yeah. It looks like you're going to win. So I know when I do all this horrible shit to this person, the biggest reaction we're going to get, if I'm working with Rock and he's the bad guy, I mean, he's the good guy I'm the bad guy. I do all this horrible stuff to him Well, I know when he starts to finally make that big comeback on me and kick my ass. I'm a fly all over the place for him That's the magic. Yeah, right The bad guy sort of creates that the you're only is I feel you're only as good as a good guy in the business As you are the bad guys that you have to work with.

Right, that's right, because the bigger the villain, the more the audience wants to see that villain go down, the more they celebrate the babyface. We talk about it all the time, like in the Rocky movies, right? Like so, in the first Rocky, he just, you know, and Rocky's not about boxing, but it's about overcoming, but the bad guy in Rocky is Paul Creed.

He's just this arrogant guy. This guy wants to prove himself against him. He doesn't have to win, but he just has to stay the distance, and he does. They get to the second one. Okay, but now he has all these things he has to overcome in his life, and it's still the same bad guy. But he's got to overcome that, and the first one was a fluke, and blah, blah, blah. He overcomes that.

Now you get to the third one. Now he's succeeded as the babyface. So what do they do? They have to make Mr. T, the ultimate bad guy, that is so mean and so nasty, he talks shit about his wife, and ends up sort of causing Burgess Meredith so much stress, making that he dies.

And now Rocky's got to avenge, he just can't fight, he gets the shit kicked out of him, now he's gotta find a way to come back against all that, and when they get to the next one, now he's the champ again, or whatever it is, they create a Russian guy, right? Because it's the Cold War and all that shit, but they create the Russian guy that's so bad, they make Rocky befriend Apollo Creed. That's great.

Who then gets killed by the big Russian guy and he's got to go to Russia to like, you should. To avenge the loss, yeah. Right? It's sort of how can we make the bad guy to give him something to fight against? If I don't hate that bad guy, if I'm not rooting against that bad guy, if that bad guy doesn't stand for everything that I despise, then how can I really root for the baby face? So the core for the story is having a great villain. We've talked about this a lot even in like Marvel movies movies is like they do villains better than DC Thanos is an amazing

Yeah, it's like you want to hate him. But then also like does he have a point? Is there something he's going after what some of the things that we try to do now a lot of it in the inner creative Is like I've always believed bad guys have to be justified Might might be fucked up reasoning, but they have to have. Their way of looking at it is really warped. They've gotta be justifiable. They can't just do like, why are you doing that? Like, cause I'm a bad guy. You know what I mean?

You didn't have to do the mustache thing. Yeah. No, no, no. But I get what you're saying, like a lot of times at DC, it's just like, I'm space alien that wants to destroy the Earth. And it's like, who cares? Why is that important?

But Thanos going like, hey, it's unfair for people. It's unfair for most people in the galaxy. So why don't we just get rid of half of them and then nobody will starve? And you're like, wait a minute, he's kind of got a point. There's some empathy in that. Plus they were already trying to put that story out there to normalize it for the government. You know what I mean? This is actually a transition thing. Real quick on this story, because specifically with Cena, you have this monumental task taking this super baby face, and you have to find a way to turn him into a bad guy that justifies

story. Right? Because I was looking at it, I'm looking at some of the stats, and it's like, okay, he has 16 championships, he's tied with Ric Flair, and it's like, you're going into WrestleMania, and then without any storyline, it's like, okay, of has like 16 championships, he's like tied with Ric Flair, and it's like, you're going into WrestleMania, and then without any storyline, it's like, okay, of course he's gonna win, and then he gets his 17th, and then it's over. And then I'm watching this match,

and I see that great moment with The Rock, and the face go cold, and this idea that like, I'm gonna end wrestling. I'm gonna win and then retire, and then nobody will ever win a belt for real again. And now all of a sudden I'm like, if I'm a wrestling fan, I've gotta protect wrestling. Yeah.

I've gotta find a way to, and now. And John's reasoning for that is like, fuck for 20 years, I've had to listen to you people tell me Cena sucks, let's go Cena, Cena sucks. I've had to, you know, you shit on my ideas, you shit on these things, all this stuff like that. Every turn I've tried to make and all I've ever done is give you everything I have and it wasn't enough.

You always want more. It's like, so there's this place of justification where you can go like, well, I kind of get that. Yeah, he's done with it. It's like, why haven't you given him up? He's done everything for the business. He's always done the right thing. Yeah, he should be the most beloved guy ever in anything. And now in his mind, he's protecting the business. He's always done the right thing. Yeah. He should be the most beloved guy ever in anything. And now in his mind, he's protecting

the business from somebody like Cody, who in his mind is just copying him and phony going into this thing and they love him for it. And he's angry about it. Yeah. Why the fuck does he get all the love? They love him for this and wait, you guys, I gave you everything. Why did I get the love? Yeah. Exactly. So you get the resentment.

She's justified in all of it and it's kind of what works with the story no matter how. And look, I'll say this from a bold standpoint, it would have been so easy for John, who's making movies and is one of the busiest people I know to say, look, I'm coming back for a year. Let's just give me the fucking belt. Yeah. We'll go out there and do my greatest hits. Yeah.

And people will love it and I'll sell some merch and then it'll be done. And I'll say, thank you very much. And I'll ride off into the sunset. Yeah. He could have very easily done that. But when we threw the heel idea at him he was like fuck yeah. He jumped at it. Yeah like man this is this is challenging to me. Yeah. I love the challenge. When we pitched it and I got off the phone with John and you know he seemed very

excited but within like the next five minutes I got like six texts from him. You know what I mean? Where I was like, oh my God, he's in. Oh, and he started pitching ideas. Yeah, he's like, he couldn't stop thinking about it. And he's just, he had to talk to somebody about it because he was on a movie set, right? So he just kept texting me about it. And I was like, oh, and this has piqued his interest.

And it's cool to see John, who's, you know, he's been gone and in and out for a long time. If you're doing that, you're not that same level to see him so engaged and so passionate about this now and what he's doing and the whole thing. It's so cool to watch, so cool. Now, I mean, what were you gonna say? I wanna come back to story,

but there's a question that occurred to me that I have to ask. We always hear everything is wrestling. So you probably as a wrestler look at everything differently and you don't have to put opinions out there, but in 2015, when you're seeing Trump come out there and generate heat, which would be the wrestling term, are you looking at that and you're like,

oh, this guy's gonna win? Like I can feel the heat. Yeah, I'm a big believer. It's funny that Nick Khan, who's the president of the company of me. Shout out Nick, I like Nick, man. He's the best. He's absolutely the best. Like he's really, I couldn't do this without him, but like he's the best. But he always has this thing with like the most charismatic guy wins.

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter your policy. Doesn't matter anything. Whoever the most charismatic guy is in the debates wins. And you can historically look at that and it's pretty accurate, right? And I think Trump's ability is in order as like him or hate him the way he does it. But he's charismatic in so many ways. And like, I think he likes getting under people's skin. I think he likes generating- I mean skin. I think he likes generating. I mean, he plays a great heal. The way he does. Yeah, it's just, it's amazing and it's genius.

And it worked in our business. Do I think he got that from our business? I think he innately understands that. It's been his whole life. You think about that. Like why, there's a lot of billionaires in the world, I suppose. Why was he the most famous one? Why was he the one that was in people magazine every

weekend, you know, with everybody under the sun? Why was he seen as the epitome of that, you know, that, that billionaire sort of status and all that stuff because of his charisma and his character and who he is and the way he can speak about it and do all those things. He just captivates people and I think it's why he is where he is. Also understanding heat. And I thought the Vince dog did a good job

of explain this. Like heat isn't necessarily everybody loves you. You can have heat with everyone hates you. It's just energy towards you. Realistically, yeah, that is the, you know, heat is that everybody hating you, but like in our business, in our parlance, right? But like...

You can't have heat as a baby face? I mean, you can, but like that's not normally how we, we would just say the baby face is, man, he's over. Oh, so heat is only a negative thing. Sort of, in our business anyways. Negative meaning sentiment. It's a positive thing, but it's about someone acting negatively.

Yes, like man, he's got a ton of heat. It's me saying, man, that heel is over. As a baby face, I would say that baby face is over. Like he's over, you know. Cody Roach is over. Drew McIntyre's got a lot of heat, right? Got it, got it, got it, got it. Both very over. So

it's, it's a, it's a, it's a different, uh, as someone who's been top heel, do you have a little bit more, I don't want to say respect, but like love for the, for the, the people who bring heat, the people who are the heels. Yeah. Especially if they do it well. Right. The hardest job right now to me in the business is making a baby face that everybody loves because everybody's got something they like differently. And so if you're too good of a good guy, they just like, ah, he's pamby-pamby, like, you know, goody two shoes, right? And they hate you for that. It's hard.

So it's hard to keep the majority of people liking a good guy for a long period of time. That's why a CM Punk is so popular because he's kind of not a babyface. He has a rebellious nature. He's anti-authority. He's an anti-authority, anti-this, anti-that. Also, a phenomenal wrestler. I remember MSG, him and Seth. And Seth too. Even if you didn't know anything about their characters and you were just dropped into

MSG that night, you just watched these guys go at it. Incredibly engaging. And Punk, same with Seth, same with Roman, same with Cody. They can verbally get all that reaction that you need. Like they almost don't have to ever wrestle on TV or do much stuff on TV because their character is such and they can talk, you know, Punk can talk into just about anything on the stick.

He's great. Did Baby Faces last longer in different eras? Yeah, because the business was set up differently. So like in the eras? Yeah, because the business was set up differently. So like in the generation prior to this, so like Vince's dad, Vince senior, when he had the company, like you know, he would have Bruno as champion or backland as champion and then he would bring in heels. Sort of it was a heel factory, right? Like a heel would come in. So, heel factory, right? Like a heel would come in. So, uh, you know, George the animal steel or Stan Hansen or whoever, whoever the heel was,

would come in. They'd beat up the number two good guy to get heat on them. Then they'd get their way up to like back, Lenore Bruno. Then they do, you know, two or three around the horn with him, Madison square garden, do all this stuff, all the big clubs, do, you know, two or three around the horn with him, Madison Square Garden, do all this stuff, all the big clubs, do all that stuff, get all that out of it. Then once they blew that off and he was done with Bruno, he'd go back down to the number two guy who would now get his revenge, overcome. That guy would leave, he'd go to another territory, another bad guy would come in. And then cycle it out.

And repeat to some degree, right? So does that say something about culture today, that there's less of an affinity for like long-term baby faces? Like how does WWE today reflect culture now? Yeah, I think I think that's difficult I think like I think everybody in the world wants to see you succeed just not too long till they flip on it That they want to see you come up. They want to see you come up. Everybody wants to see you come up But staying there. It's tough. Yeah.

It's something we said here before. It's like when you're on your way up, you represent people's dreams for themselves. And then when you're on top, you represent what they may never achieve. They may never achieve and what they'd like to achieve, but you're in the way. You're in the way. Yeah. So it's like, okay, you got to get down. I just wanted to move this saying in our business.

People want to see you do well. They just don't want to see you do well. They just don't want to see you do too well. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so now you know that and you understand that's people's reaction to it, right? So you have like this suit, what is it? White meat baby face in Cody, right?

And he seemed to have maintained it, but is there a point where you're going to have to go, uh-oh, like... It's on us to try to keep it, but is there a point where you're gonna have to go, uh oh? It's on us to try to keep it, right? Yeah. But yeah, at some point, you'll probably get to a place where they're just... You know, look, John was white meat, baby face for a long period of time. I just saw him do an interview the other day where he said, like, I don't remember what

WrestleMania, it was like 22 or something like that. He and I wrestled in that WrestleMania in Chicago and I was bad guy and John was the ultimate good guy and I was the big bad guy at the time. But as we built that, no matter what we were doing, the more I beat up John, the more they liked me. The more John would try to make comebacks, the more they were booing John. And even in the match, it was like 50 50., right? And I remember having a conversation with John about it because it was bugging him. It was just starting to happen.

And I remember saying like, ah, who cares? You know, the Yankees and the Red Sox all in one package like. It's sold out, right? Who cares? Just go with it. Right? And he was having trouble with this idea

that he's supposed to be baby faced, but not everybody was buying in. Just there's a point in time in that where, yeah, you just like start to, well, man, that's not the reaction I'm trying to get. Like I'm not trying to make them say Cena sucks or anything else, but yet there they go with it. And I'm doing all the right things.

They're just, for whatever reason, starting to choke on it. Well, maybe that's culture, right? It is. I truly believe that. Look, name somebody in pop culture that has been popular forever. No one says a bad word about him. There's only one, Leonardo DiCaprio. The worst thing they say about him is he has sex with hot girls. That's terrible. What a horrible guy. Yeah. And even just in saying that, you've just made half of the population

love him even more. Exactly. Keanu Reeves is maybe the only person I can think. Yeah, Keanu Reeves. And because of who he is outside and all that stuff. I have a theory on these guys. It's tough. I have a theory on these guys.

It's lack of exposure. Yeah, 100%. So if you're doing it week in and week out, it's tough for people to stomach that. If they don't actually like love you for you for whatever reason, you start to be this like representative of infallible greatness, which makes a lot of people be like, well, I'm unfallible. What the fuck is up with that?

But if you put out one movie a year or Denzel is another one, it's like nobody's ever hated Denzel. We'll never hate Denzel. But if you're putting out one or two movies here tops, and then you go away, I think a lot of times with the even actors, and this is like to the point about everything's wrestling, it's like the actors that are like constantly in your face, like Keanu looks like he's trying to get away. Like any picture of Keanu, he's like on the subway with his hat on.

He's like, he's fighting. The actors that need the attention every second, people start to sour on them a bit. When you see them constantly a TMZ You see them constantly in the top of the rashi you see them all this stuff in it and it becomes too much You become desensitized to it. Then you start to the guys Yeah, yeah, and you're gonna fuck up and you start to turn on it. Yeah, and I do I do think that that Longevity is is part of scarcity as well. But in your business, you can't go,

hey Cody, we're gonna need you to go away. He's gotta be there every night, he's the fucking champ. So you need to build up heels that people despise. And that wanna come at him in a way that sort of they feel like, oh man, he's getting screwed over there. What, you know what I mean? It feels unfair, there's getting screwed over there. You know what I mean? It feels unfair.

There's like something unjust actually unfair. Yeah. Yeah. You have to try to create that. It's the most, I say it all the time, it's the most difficult thing in our business to do is create somebody that is universally loved and keep them there. How do you have that talk with talent where it's like, if you think it's in their best interest for you to go away

and have the audience miss you for a while, like how do you have that's in their best interest for you to go away and have the audience miss you for a while, like how do you have that talk with them? You just have to tell them. Like I think, you know, hey, let's cool this down for a little bit. Let's step you out of it. And let's, you know, there's always, you know, a lot of times we don't even, it's not our call

because somebody will get injured or something will happen and you're just like, this was a kind of a, you never want to say that to them. Like, well, you got injured was a good thing. Right, but like sometimes taking that time away is a good thing. There's a, you know, you're obviously familiar with Floyd Mayweather, right? Yeah. And I'm a big boxing fan. I was watching his career. I helped him when he wrestled for us in Fought Big Show. I trained him for that.

How was he in training? Was he... and he was like, you know, good listener, and he was down to do whatever it went through? I say this all the time. He would show up with like this massive entourage, everybody hooting and hollering and just crazy and all that stuff, and we'd talk for a little bit, and then he'd be like, all right, you want to get down to work?

And I'd be like, yeah. And he'd whistle or something, and he'd be like, all right, business, everybody out. And everybody would stop talking. Anybody that stayed would stop talking. Everybody else would get out of the room. It was like a laser focus. And the first time we trained together,

we did like two hours or whatever. And then I had to go on the road. And then I came back, I think to Vegas or something. And we get the same thing. Everybody's there. He tells everybody to get out. And I go, all right, I just want to review what we talked about last time. He goes, can I say it to you?

And he like went on for like 20 minutes and told me like everything. And I was like, damn, all right. I mean, that's like an unbelievable amount of discipline. Like the thing about Floyd is there's the antics and there's the character whatever. But like when you watch him in the ring, it is a huge WWE fan growing up. So like, that's where the whole money may, whether it makes so much sense. He had that conversation with me about like, look, I knew pretty boy Floyd was only going to get so far. You can make the argument that I was the greatest boxer, but the,

the real argument is what's the greatest box office. How do you make that? I need to create a character and I need an avenue in which to sell that character. He created the character and then he went and sold 24-7 to HBO. And then that was the avenue in which to sell the character. And think about it, when he goes up in weight and starts fighting these bigger guys and he's having some hand problems, he's not really getting these knockouts.

He's fighting a much more defensive style. So how do you sell out pay-per-views, fighting a style that like casuals might not care? I love it, because I love boxing. I'm looking at the best ever. Yeah, you like the science. I like the science, but not everybody wants the science. Most don't.

They most don't. So what do you do? You make yourself hated. You make people root against you. And he becomes this ultimate heel. And people were paying 70 bucks to watch him lose, and he'd never fucking lose to him. And the genius of what he did was not only make people hate him, but I will make you

believe this other guy might have a chance. Or team. Yeah. All these guys. This guy's got an unorthodox style and Floyd's starting to get older. Like he's showing you flaws in his buildup of 24-7. He's showing you the flaws. There's too much family drama going on.

He's not focused. He's not training, right? He's eating like shit. All these things. Meanwhile, they're showing Ortiz or these other guys. He looks incredible. Remember Juan Manuel Marquez was drinking his pee? Yeah.

Like they're doing all these like crazy unorthodox training things. You're like, he's definitely. You know I walked him to the ring, right? So for the Marquez fight, the ring is one of the craziest things ever. First of all, I'm backstage with them. I show up and they're like, Hey, champ wants to see us. I go in the back and he's laying on the couch watching basketball game.

I tell him, he's like, what's up? And we talked for a few minutes and then I'm like, all right, man, I'm gonna get out of your hair. Let me go back out here. And he's like, no, man, you ain't in my hair. I'm just watching the game, I got money on this. He's like, I'm just sitting here, you wanna hang out? Sit down, man, hang out.

So I'm like, okay, so I sit down for a few minutes. We talk a little bit. As soon as he's breaking the conversation, I'm like, all right, man, I'm gonna get out of your way and let you do your thing. He's like, I'm telling you, man, I'm just sitting here. I said, well, I know it's game day, man. I know you got shit to do. He's like, if I haven't done all the shit I need to do before today, I've already lost. I've done everything there is to do. Ain't

nothing going to change it now. I'm going to put my gloves on a little bit. You sit through the whole thing. I'm going to start to warm up. Then I'm going to go out there and fight. Simple as that. And like, okay, I sat down and he just went back to watching the game like he was Saturday on his couch. Any other day, right? Yeah. And then the other crazy thing was we sit there, I sit there. At one point he's talking shit to like Bernard Hopkins.

He's in the corner. Marquez is throwing punches at him and he's leaning back talking shit in between Bobbin and Weave and talking shit to fucking Bernard Hopkins. Which I'm like crazy. They get us up in the last round to walk us into the ring and so like we're in there like this 10 seconds after it's over. And he's walking back towards us. Bell rings, they get me in the ring. He's walking back towards us and as he's walking back

towards us I kind of look at him and he's walking back towards us. And as he's walking back towards us, I kind of look at him and he's like very lightly covered in sweat, like very lightly. He's not like, like he wasn't working that hard. And as he's walking, he goes, that's motherfucking beat Pacquiao twice. I was like, Jesus, guys, it's just too much. But he got it. He got the storytelling. He understood it. Got the storytelling. That ability, how many people did he make you believe this is the guy? Anybody ever, like I brought up the Ortiz, anybody ever hear that guy prior to that fight? No.

I mean, Rumblings and Boxing, of course, but the average person know. Obviously Pacquiao was big and then... Calvarez. Calvarez. I had heard of him. Cotto. I mean, Canelo. It's crazy to see what Canelo's done and what I was at that Canelo fight. And I mean, it was like, Canelo didn't lay a hand on him. It was it was unbelievable.

Like that was the thing. And he made it seem like, okay, Canelo's gonna kill this guy. And then he walked in there. The part when Canelo throws a big wild punch and he flips over there. See, like, who are you trying to punch? You know, like just, but that's the shit why people, every time they wanted to see him, somebody please shut this guy up and knock him out. And then he would, you know, just go in there and it was almost like it was easy. So what is it about us then?

I mean, that's where like wrestling is just perfect and understanding human condition. And I think now that, I think now more than ever, maybe you ushered this in, now is there, as there's this like blend between reality and wrestling, you know, people are much more aware of like what's happening with storylines. So it's maybe even more difficult for you to catch them off guard. But like, what is it about the human condition that we need these bad guys? It's this constant like David versus Goliath. I don't know, man. You know, it's a funny thing, our business,

you can make our business so complex. The truth is, it's the same stories have been being told since the beginning of time. Bad guy, good guy, good guy fights bad guy, bad guy does something terrible to the good guy, then good guy makes a comeback, hopefully good guy wins. If you wanna tell a good story, make people keep coming back. Sometimes you got to have the bad guy win so that you get to, right? Like I use that as sometimes there's a, we'll be

writing a show and we get to the end and you know, there's people that filter through the show. So one of the producers will read the show and he'll be like, I'm just going to say this whole show is heat driven. Like every bad guy goes over. Every bad guy looks good. The whole thing is bad guy, bad guy, bad guy. Might not be the best live experience. And I'm like, Empire Strikes Back, dude, we're good. Right?

Today's the bad guy's day. And we're good with that. So you're OK with not giving an audience what they want in the short term, because the long term payoff is that much more valuable. Look, sometimes you're wrong, but the truth is, you know, you can't judge the story you're being told by the moment in time you're in and how people are reacting to it because hopefully if you're smart, you know where the story's going.

Yeah. And if you believe in the story and the payoff, you're going to go through times where people are like, this sucks. I don't like this. And you're okay with that. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, most people are saying this sucks. I don't like it, but I'm a tune in next week and see if they fix this or whatever because it's terrible. How long can you stretch that out? Yeah, you know, and that's the thing. And look, I'm not gonna say we're always successful at it.

Nobody's got 100% batting average. I like to think we're pretty good at it. But you cannot panic. Do you watch White Lotus at all? You following this season? I'm just so busy. Okay, so there's this great show called White Lotus, right? I've only watched this season, and there's two other seasons.

I've heard of it, it's all I've just said. But like, the first four episodes came out, and people were panning it. They were going, ah, this is bullshit, or like, oh, this season is, you know, what is it, you jump the shark or whatever, like, ah, this is boring, whatever. And I bumped into one of the producers,

and he was like, just sit back, relax and enjoy the show. And I was like, that's a really confident take. And episode five, six, seven, it's like four episodes just, you planted all the seeds and when they went to harvest it, it shut the internet down. It was like the only conversation. So it's having maybe the balls to like put those.

Rock says it all the time. You know, when they'll come in and they'll like, that was stupid, Rock did this thing, and he's like, just shut up and enjoy the ride. Because he knows where it's going. Yeah, or we know where we're gonna get it to, or we're confident in the fact that we will get this places it needs to go.

Sometimes, sometimes you're in the build for something, and you know, people don't take that, and like, well I wish they would have done this. Yeah, well know, people don't take that and like, well I wish they would have done this. Yeah, well yeah, we are gonna do that, but I can't do it today, the thing's not for six weeks still. I gotta do it down here where, you know, like you can't give them the payoff in week one.

You know what I mean? Yes, of course. As comics, we're all familiar with bombing. Do you have any storylines or anything you've written in that you were like, oh, this is going to pay off crazy and then doesn't and then you're watching the back like, oh, fuck. No, I think because usually if you, and that happens for sure, but like usually, here's the beautiful thing about our world.

The internet's not real life, right? And the bitching and the fucking complaining that is on there, it's not real life, right? And the bitching and the fucking complaining that is on there is not real life. You could read the internet and it'll sound like this thing is dead, it's not, you know, and I'll use Cody as the example. Cody's already jumped the shark, he's dead as a baby face. He's like, really? Because, I don't know, I'm in an arena with 10,000,

15,000 people every night going ape shit for me, selling the most merchandise. He's like, yeah, like, but the, sure, whatever you want to say on the internet, that's the golden rule. So the beautiful thing for our business, unlike a movie or a TV show or even a book or anything else, it's like we have a focus group. Every single night. You go up and you do stand up, right?

Like you do your stand up for a year before you do the TV special or whatever Well, it's not true because you're trying out all the shit and you're seeing what works and what doesn't yeah If you're terrible at your job, you just do it the way you want to do it It bombs if you're good at your job you tweak things you change things to make it seem fresh still all the time But you're you're shifting along the way until you get to where it's just right and then you go put it out there. As we begin to tell these stories, you know this is working, this is not working.

And whether people are bitching online or people, the reaction of people live. It's what you can trust. J. Uso's terrible. It's never gonna, what are they doing? They're yeeting. Again, merch, reaction in the crowd, everything he does, like, it's just opinion of a few people. So if a story piece bombs, you guys can get back

and be like, all right, let's just pivot and then we can save it. Hey, man, that didn't go the way I thought it was gonna go. Man, they didn't take that or they didn't react to that or that didn't click the way I thought it was gonna go. They didn't take that or they didn't react to that or that didn't click the way we thought it was gonna. What if we do this instead? And you pivot and you move, right? That's all the time.

That's being a good storyteller. That's being, you know, and I think in our business, our business slightly has changed now because of TV and the live nature of it and stuff. So the guys in the back as they're doing this, a lot of them put their matches together beforehand, move for move, and then they go out there and they do it. My generation was taught differently and was a bit more like have a premise of where you want to go, start to go there.

But if it's not working, you have to go in a different direction. You can do that on the fly. You know, not as a brag, it's just a different generational thing. So like I've gone, I wrestled Taker at WrestleMania one time and like we sort of put together the finish and it was you know like I don't know the finish was probably 15 minutes long or whatever we knew where we wanted to go with the finish and then we'd sort of put it together and now it's early that day and I went to take it I'm like hey we get

the finish finally down now you want to talk about the rest things like they're just called out there wow all right that, can I just call it out there? I'm like, all right. That sounds like fun. I wonder if it's more believable that way from a viewer. I feel like it is. Cause you don't know. Yeah, and there's times sometimes when you have all that stuff laid out where it starts to look dancy

and people are just going to the next stage. You want it to be like jazz. I want it to be like improvising. I think that's the trick, like in your business, I would imagine that comedians start to get to a place where they know the reaction and then they just start to go with what they believe is going to happen. Like I'm always more impressed with a comedian that's like doing something and then somebody

heckles them and he like just goes on for six minutes and rips this person a new asshole and does all this stuff that you know, like there's no way that was planned. You know what I mean? To me, that's impressive. Like the- It's off the cuff. Yeah, you just go do your shtick and repeat your stuff. It's still, don't get me wrong,

it's still an incredible skillset that I don't have. And that, you know, very few, one, you know, tiny, infinitesimal amount of people have that skillset. But the other one where you just off the cuff. You have it. You have it and you're just that to me. And the audience feels that too. And the best version of it is if they think the entire thing is more or less that.

So like you're in a joke, but then there may be, are parts of that joke where the audience is going, wait, is he kind of riffing this? Is he reacting to our reaction? That's what I was gonna say. To me then the art form becomes when you have it down to a sign, but you still go out there and make it seem like it's the first time you've ever said anything.

And sometimes you gotta lie, not lie to yourself, but sometimes you gotta trick yourself. Sometimes you gotta get into the joke, at least for me, differently. Like every night, I'm gonna purposely put myself in a situation where I haven't said it like this and then see what happens. at least for me, differently. Like every night, I'm gonna purposely put myself in a situation where I haven't said it like this and then see what happens.

And then maybe a new line comes around. But they can feel my excitement and energy. Dude, there's a weird thing in comedy where like, you'll try a new joke and they'll like react to it and you'll walk off stage like, I got a killer. And then you'll listen to it and you'll be like, that bombed, what the fuck just happened? And it's simply like, you're excited about it.

So the little reaction that they think is way bigger. They give me something. Exactly. Yeah. But like, I think they can get almost like, they feed off of your excitement, authenticity. I think there's stuff in our business where sometimes talent, like, I don't understand why, like, why am I not the cop guy? I hear my reaction. I get every night.

You know, you hear the reaction, you get every night. You're not out there for the other reaction. That's, you know. Also, the expectation might be way less for your reaction. Because you're not the top guy. You're a guy earlier in the card, and then when they're going crazy, they're not there to only see you.

The main event expectation is a different fucking ballgame. Different, and it's tough, you know, you need to explain that to somebody is tough, right? It's their ego. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't as big as you thought it was. No, it was, I heard it.

You know, like, nah, I heard it too. You were saying you had a friend in comedy when you were coming up? You know, I was, like, before I got into the wrestling business, trying to get into the wrestling business, I ran gyms where I lived and all that stuff. And there was a guy that, that, you know, he was trying to be a standup comedian.

And I don't, you know, I don't think he even made it. I never heard of him after that, but like, he was taking, there was like, it was at the time when, like comedy was really taken off. Since maybe eighties? Yeah, late eighties and shit. Like comedy was huge, man, like just massive. And he was trying taking off. Since maybe eighties? Yeah, late eighties and shit. Like comedy was huge. Huge. Like just massive.

And he was trying to do it and he was like taking like a class. I remember him telling me, like, you know, I'm enrolled in this class with this guy who's like a famous comedian. I don't remember the name. And I was like, fuck you, taking comedian classes. Like I didn't even know that was a thing.

It just seemed odd to me, right? But then I was like, well, I guess, sort of like what we do, right? Like what I'm trying to do. And, but he would tell me, you know, he'd come in and he'd be trying shit out on me all the time, but then he'd be telling me things that he learned about like callbacks and, you know, different things. And it's the same, it's the same thing. We're just physically, you, you go out there, comedians go out there and they tell a story. And over

a long period of time, they tell this story and there's bits and pieces of the story that ebb and flow and bring it back to the beginning. And when you don't know the jokes come in and the guy's telling a story, they think, wow, all of a sudden he got real serious. Then he hits you with the thing. When you least expect it, yeah. Yeah. It's the distract. It's the, right? Like all these things are the same in our business. Just the medium of which we paint the picture is different.

I was the victim of one of yours. Oh yeah, I was fucked up. I know, I know. You're the victim of Logan. No, no, be honest, did you have any, I think you had, who moved my seats? That's all I wanna know. Logan, if a top star comes to me and asks...

Don't work me. No, no, no, no. That was getting diplomatic. Yeah. But the top star comes and says like, hey, it's Nassau and Joe is here, right? Yes, he is. Where's he sitting? Over there.

Hey, would they move him over here? I'd like to address him in the crowd. Like, okay. I mean, top star is generous. Right. You're a part-timer? You're're gonna let a part-timer do that? Okay, let me just say, a guy that thinks he's a Topstar. Okay, fair enough. I'm just saying... Probably he's gonna show me this and be like, you're serious, bro?

Because we're seated initially with all the other dudes that are behind McAfee and Call, and then all of a sudden, last second, we get seated over there, and my stupid ego is like, oh, I've done Madison Square Garden before, oh, they wanna put me forever out, and my wife is there, I'm all excited, whatever like that, and then Logan calls me out, and there's a moment where I kinda look, and I look at Dove, cause I'm like, did you fucking do,

like what the hell is going on, and then he has no clue about what's happened, and then when he starts doing shit, he's doing a work on me. Yeah. Well put it this way. If, if somebody, I know that he knows you, I know that you guys know each other to a degree. So him saying to me, Hey, I know where's he sitting. Oh, he's over behind Cole. Yeah. Hey, could you move them over here? Cause he doesn't, he wants to be able to address hard camera and still,

Oh, so that's how you get the look. Speak to you, right? So to me, I'm like, okay, well, they're friends. Like, nothing, like, he's not gonna go over to you and go like, hey, Andy, and then you're like, bang. They were friends. They were friends. That's what I thought, I thought literally the week,

and I think he fucking set me up because like literally the week. Of course he did. Yeah, no, no, he sent me an invite to his fucking wedding. Yeah. So then when he announced me, I'm like, what is he trying to pull me into? And then he does this whole fucking shit

where like now I have to like co-sign his nonsense. And I'm like, I'm at home. Like you get to wrestle. I got, I see these people every single fucking day. So I'm like, you're not gonna pull me into this bullshit. And especially when you're not even wrestling that, you're cutting a promo. That's why I showed up to watch you cut a fucking promo.

Like I give a fuck. Well, you do realize he's a guy that sort of Plies his trade on getting clicks and downloads and right. Yeah, so I'm not gonna let him do that to me Well, you sort of did Logan is fucking lucky AJ pulled up Logan in front of my people messages great,'s great great. I was shocked. These p***y didn't jump in. We have a perfect opportunity to- What? We're not gonna jump in while you're in there. What? Why not? This is wrestling. This is what it-

No, I'm not getting kicked out of Mazza's for a garden. My boys are sitting there watching, eating popcorn like a**holes. Also because if you get knocked out, this becomes his podcast. This is some potential upside. Yeah, exactly. I thought you could take him, bro. I thought I could too. He sends it, you actually embarrassed me even more.

Now I might have some beef with you. You send in this other guy, like, I mean, beautifully, he does a great job, he's jumping over the ropes, everything like that, but I'm like, let me do it old fashioned in front of my people. I did feel a little bit of disrespect from that. Well, I mean.

It almost felt like you thought I couldn't defend myself. No, no, look, the AJ part was already planned to happen. I didn't know he was going to do this stuff with you beforehand. Hmm. I mean, so you're basically saying that Logan has the keys to the business, that the inmates run in the asylum, is that what you're saying? I am also saying that if I- You might need a punishment is all I'm saying.

What would Vince do, man? That's all I'm saying. I am saying that if I see a celebrity in the front row of your stature, that if something might happen, it's not terrible for us. Wow. Okay, good to know. Whether you come out shining or whether it's a little bit at your expense, it's not a terrible thing.

All right, well, I just want to let you know that's the last time something like that happens. I just feel like that if we go to Madison Square Garden again, I just want to let you know that's the last time something like that happens. Okay. That's the last time something like that happens. I just feel like that if we go to Madison Square Garden again, I'd like to invite you and then whatever happens to Logan at that event from you is just... All I'm saying is I have a way of getting in there without the metal detectors. That's all I'm saying. You know what I mean? So, you know, maybe you want to see me in the bleachers, you want to see me in a nice suite or something like that because I'm in front row, you never know

what might happen. Yeah. I'm all for it. Look, WrestleMania's two weeks away, so if you wanna like, pop in. I'm busy, I can't go to something like that. I can't, I could never, I can't, you know. Which is what a guy would say if he was gonna show up on an house.

I mean, I'll definitely be there. I'll definitely, 100% be there. Look, he's gonna get a paddle racket to the head. I am not. This is the beautiful thing about our business I'll definitely 100% beat it. He's gonna get a paddle racket to the head. This is the beautiful thing about our business is people will debate this shit all day long. I say this about our business all the time. If you don't like it, there's nothing in the world I can say to you to make you like our business.

If you do like it, there's no explanation necessary. You just get into it, right? But as into it as you are, there will be moments in time in our show where I could say, like somebody will say like, hey, those two really got at it. And I was like, no, no, part of the show. And then they'll be like, no, no, no, no, I saw that one. I was there. And I know that he did one thing that pissed the other guy off. And then it got real for a second with those two then you're not sure. Yeah, it's like trying to explain vagina to gay guys

Or you could flip that scenario too Yes, yeah them explaining but to us. Yeah, but some of us have been in there I've got one but I'm not yeah, but I don't know that I'm buying the explanation. Yeah, I guess that's true. But when we tug on it, it's fun. You almost understand them. Anyway, listen, Triple H, you're a fucking man. Yes, yes, yes, sorry, sorry. He's got to get out of here. Oh, sorry. You say the pendulum swings. I was a big fan of the attitude error. Where would you say you guys are at right now? As far as you mean? Like, are, is the WWE in the second coming attitude era or a little plain and a little sick?

I say this a bunch. Well, look, you have to play to what is acceptable in the world. Because you can say like in the attitude era, well, a lot of that stuff wasn't acceptable. No, yeah, it was. Like, as my kids were going to school and saying it every day and doing all the stuff and wearing the shirts and all the things, right? There are certain things that are acceptable,

certain things that are not in the moments in time. We have to work with our partners, obviously, and what can work and what can't work, and there's leeway in that. But as a guy that sat front row and center as the attitude error was becoming and then what it would become were in that same zone of. Gotcha.

Push in the envelope. Push in the envelope but also of mainstream acceptance. Oh, you feel it. On my Netflix every day. You feel it. Yeah, and it's global, right? We are, you see us now kind of, we've always been a global product,

but now is sort of the first time that I think we can capitalize on that, where we can go any place on the planet. You guys are in Europe. I was seeing you guys sell out these arenas in Europe. It was unbelievable. They're chanting their own soccer chants, because they just want to be part of the show.

They don't know how to do it outside of. This year we'll be in France, and Paris, that'll be off the charts. We're going to go to Perth again and Australia, you know, the Middle East is always off the charts. You know, and we haven't even touched South America, go to Mexico, like all these things that are upcoming and we will be doing. And you got to go to the Middle East and then tell them all that Sammy Zane is really from Ireland. The biggest heel turn ever. Very last question. You guys are under the same umbrella. Are we going to see any UFC guys make that jump into? You know, you might. It's one of the things like

it just depends on who's an entertainer and who's. Oh, so it's a possibility. Yeah, there's always that possibility. Look, Brock Lesnar, Ronda. Of course. There's always that possibility. We're always wide open to it. I think there's also possibilities that as we are recruiting now D1 athletes coming out of colleges in our NIL program and everything else of how we're recruiting, there are people that are coming into us that want to do WWE style entertainment for a living but are like- I might want some of that UFC stuff. Look, I'd dip my toe in that water of taking a shot at UFC if I could.

And whether that's realistic or whether it's not, some of those guys have massive amateur backgrounds and have trained in that stuff. But are looking to do what we do, but would also throw their hat in that ring. So who knows? I would say never say never on that. I would say the bigger collaboration between us and UFC is what you're seeing happen now where we're like going into areas and sort of doing like a, almost like a weekend kind of takeover thing where we go in with making I'm making this up, but a smack down on a Friday night and then UFC is in there

on a Saturday and then we're in there with something on a Sunday and then we do a Monday night raw and you know, we've we've gone in there and done this whole sort of weekend takeover of stuff. I think seeing bits and pieces of things like that and you know, with the inclusion also within TKO of you know pro bull riding and all that stuff now there's just entertainment conglomerate yeah there's a lot of avenues on that and that's gonna breed crossover for yeah and live events you know it's funny to me that people make sometimes the distinction between sport and everything's entertainment entertainment

you know it's all entertainment. And what I love is that we are sort of the ultimate variety show and we can do a bit of everything. So we can have, stuff can be serious, it can be emotional, it can be make you angry, it can make you laugh. We can have comedians on, we can have musicians on, we can have Bad Bunny wrestling in a match.

He's awesome by the way. Incredible, right? We can have Travis Scott there, we can have bad bunny wrestling in a match. He's awesome by the way. Incredible, right? We can have Travis Scott there, we can have you there, we can have, we can include so many things and be a part of just everything. I think you see that resonating across society where, as big as it was in the attitude era, we were still seen as like this crazy offshoot thing. And now it feels like it's a part of culture.

Yeah. Yeah. It very much is just a part of culture and a part of everybody's sort of everyday vernacular. The amount of times I hear our insider terms being used in the regular world now is- Oh, kayfabe, babyface, here. It's crazy. Yeah. This is just common parlance. It's just every... Jabroni.

Yeah, exactly. Dude, okay, last, I know you gotta go. There is a wrestler in New York City. His name is Tommy Invincible. He is the purest white meat babyface. Does he have a mustache and a... He's nothing like that. That guy's not a wrestler.

That's just a civilian that was taken advantage of, you know and it does not need his redemption because I'm a Buddhist now I don't care about that above that and I'm not gonna be used for fucking clicks ever again. Okay, you're above But if you show up in my neighbors, they get popped this guy Tommy invincible I'm obsessed with I watch every single Instagram. He puts out. Okay, I would be upset if I did not notice that He's right now the United States Bronx champion. It is gonna blow his fucking mind that I'm talking to him about you right now. But I'm telling you, this guy is absolutely phenomenal. And he is a lifer, he's dedicated his life to this thing, and he is incredible, and I just want to put him

on your radar. Well, there he is standing outside the performance center, so clearly he's on your radar. Of course, yeah, he's definitely. I will, look, in my position now, like, I have a team of people that are across all this stuff, so I guarantee you they know who he is. God bless.

And we'll get eyes on him. Tommy, you're gonna make everyone feel invincible, bro. Okay, Triple H, thank you so much. Thank you.