Andy & Ari On3 - College Football Playoff: EXPANDING to 24 teams? Do CFB fans want a bigger format? SMU head coach Rhett Lashlee joins | Kalen DeBoer extended at Alabama

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

As the College Football Playoff selection committee has met this week, the big question coming out of the meetings is: Will the CFP expand to 16 or 24 teams? As much of the chatter revolves around expanding the format, is this really a good idea? Do college football fans really want an expanded format from 12 teams? Watch here as Andy & Ari discuss the risks and benefits of expanding the field. What’s ahead for the CFP?   (0:00) On Today’s Episode (1:13) Presenting Sponsor (2:55) Intro: CFP Expansion (4:42) What did we learn from CFP meetings? (12:23) Tying in Wilson’s story on LSU (14:00) Regular Season Diminished? (23:15) Will fans ALWAYS watch CFB? (32:30) Previewing Rhett Lashlee’s interview (35:17) SMU HC Rhett Lashlee joins (47:08) Blueprint Changes for SMU (54:56) Kevin Jennings returning to SMU (56:42) Closing out with Rhett Lashlee (59:52) Kalen DeBoer’s extension (1:12:04) Conclusion: See you tomorrow!   After the College Football Playoff discussion, Andy & Ari shift gears to SMU as head coach Rhett Lashlee joins the show. Making the first edition of the 12-team CFP after the 2024 season, how do the Mustangs return to the College Football Playoff? Watch here as Rhett Lashlee gives his thoughts on where SMU stands and if the CFP format should expand or not?   Wrapping up SMU, Andy & Ari cover some news from Wednesday: Alabama announced head coach Kalen DeBoer would receive a contract extension.   Thanks for watching!   Send your questions to: [e-mail] [e-mail]   Our show is also presented by BetMGM!   If you haven’t signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code CFB and you will get up to a $1500 First Bet Offer on your first wager with BetMGM! Here’s how it works:   1. Download the BetMGM app and sign-up using bonus code CFB. 2. Deposit at least $10 and place your first wager on any game. 3. You will receive up to $1500 in bonus bets if your bet loses! Just make sure you use bonus code CFB when you sign up!   Make this college football season one for the history books. Make it legendary.   See BetMGM.com for Terms. 21+ only. This promotional offer is not available in DC, Mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario, or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET (Available in the US) . 877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), 1-800-327-5050 (MA), 1-800-BETS-OFF (IA), 1-800-981-0023 (PR). First Bet Offer for new customers only (if applicable). Subject to eligibility requirements. Rewards are non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire in 7 days. In partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel   Join On3 today! https://www.on3.com/join   Watch our show on YouTube! https://youtu.be/jPIpsAarYUU   Hosts: Andy Staples, Ari Wasserman Producer: River Bailey   Interested in partnering with the show? Email [e-mail] Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On today's Andy and Ari on three presented by BetMGM. Ari was at the college football playoff meetings the last couple days in the Dallas area. Nothing was decided on format, but it certainly seems like the winds are blowing in a certain direction. And that direction involves the number 24. We'll talk about what Ari learned. And is it now decided, preordained that they're going to 24, or is there a chance that they could go smaller or stay at 12. Plus, SMU head coach,

Rhett Lashley joins the show. Mustangs have made the playoff under Lashley, only a few close losses last year away from being in playoff contention again. And he believes they've got their most talented team since he has been the head coach at SMU coming back in 2026. Plus, Alabama extends Kailin DeBore.

Strange. situation involving Michigan's interest and a big time lapse between when the extension was agreed upon and when it was announced. We'll talk about it all on today's Andy NARA3 presented by BetMGM. This show is sponsored by BetMGM, and if you're not already signed up, download that app. Use the code CFB when you sign up. That CFB is in college football for up to $1,500 in bonus bets.

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Rewards are non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire in seven days in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Welcome to Andy Aeron 3 presented by BetMGM. Ari is back from the Ritz, Carlton, in lovely Irving, Texas, hop-knobbing with the muckety-mucks. I heard a story that there was a lot of food laid out for various conventions that were in the building and that you tried to grab a plate

and were quickly, quickly shouted down by a member of the serving staff. That's right. And I know who told you the story. And the person who told you, you the story. Did he tell you that he told me I could eat it? He definitely told me he told you could eat it because he was trying to see what would happen. Yes. Yeah. And also they threw all of it away. I mean, it was like, who it was for they had already eaten. That was the, what was left.

And I had gotten there after lunch and I hadn't eaten yet. And instead of trying to order Jimmy John to the front desk and doing that whole thing, I was like, well, I'll just eat these. I appreciate your desire to not expense out the $60 chicken Caesar salad so much that you would door dash Jimmy Johns to the front desk of a Ritz. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like Jimmy Johns, but it's, I don't like dealing with delivery people and trying to explain where the entrance is and all that. But yeah, I did get clipped.

But then that wonderful person that told me not to touch the plates, those aren't for me, helped guide me to the room. I used to interview Rhett Lashley, which is a nice little, you know. Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Ritz Carlton and poison. So what did we learn at this thing? Because I'm amazed, I was with you in Miami Beach when we went to the CFP meeting that was the day before the National Championship game.

And in that meeting, it felt like the 10 other commissioners were walking around, like, bawling up their fists and punching their palms. like, okay, Tony Petiti, how come you disagree with us? We all want 16 and you want 24. Why can't you get on board? And now three months later, three months later, it feels like all of those commissioners who were on the side of 16, not on the side of Tony Petitia of the Big Ten,

now it feels like they're on Tony Petiti's side, would like 24 and are looking at Greg Sankey of the SEC the way they were looking at Tony Petiti of the Big Ten three months ago. And I actually think it's great because if you're a Big Ten fan who doesn't want the 2014 playoff, like you should be chanting SEC, SEC, SEC in the scenario. That's part of the problem is people are like, well, my commissioner says this, so I believe it. Believe what you want to believe.

Don't forget which commissioner wants what. And because other than Sankey and Petiti, who've been fairly consistent the whole time. The other ones are kind of blowing with the wind here. You know, just won't what you want. I wish that we were in the room, just so I can understand how tenors change so quickly, because I think that everybody thinks

that they're in a conference room for two days arguing about format, but I actually think that format was maybe a smaller portion of the discussion. It was like a couple hours, maybe? Yeah, I mean, you think about like logistically what going to 24 does to the season. There is so much to work out. from scheduling the conference championship games to, you know, play in games and all the different things that have to go into it. I think that, you know, my hope is, and I think this is what's going to happen. You know, there's a deadline for December 1st to make a decision that would ultimately impact 2027.

2026 is already in the bag. But I hope that it takes as long as humanly possible because that means that they're going to take their time and have more disagreements about things so that if they ultimately make, a decision they arrive at the right one how the momentum shifts you know is it's hard to gauge and i will give gregg sankey credit he was the only commissioner that stopped to speak to us uh you know although he was somewhat combative and frankly annoyed um about some of the questions i think that you know i can almost sense his frustration walking out of that room um because when we would ask a question that would that would call into question the validity of the 2014 field he would almost like, yeah, buddy, I know.

Like, because like, you know, that's what he's arguing for. What is it? It's crazy because it just happens so fast. Like, that's the part. We'll have to find out. I mean, and look, everybody's been asking the answers have not come yet. But I'm sure they will come as the spring wears on from other commissioners, people and other conferences about why things have changed.

because I do think that is that is part of the intrigue of this. But I go back to the same thing I've said all along. Why are you trying to change this now? And I'm not even talking about the 24. I'm also talking about the 16. Yeah. Because you just started this 12 thing. You've had two years of it.

You're going to have a third year of it now. but you don't know what this entire enterprise is going to look like in 23 or in 2035. You have no idea how the conferences are going to be organized, who's going to be in what conference. Is there going to be 136 team FBS? Is it going to be some sort of like 70, you know, 67 team Super League or 50 teams? Who knows what that's going to look like? So don't lock yourself into a giant playoff, be it 16 or 24. now when you don't even know what the whole thing's going to look like.

Yeah, and I think it's interesting because I'm anti-16 as much, not as much as 24, but I don't want them to expand at all because I think that the 12 team system has actually worked out quite great. I think 12 is actually the perfect number now for the way that the sport is set up. And obviously, Andy, as we are evolving as a sport, that could change to 16 or even 24 in the future, but we haven't gotten there yet. I don't understand the rush to get there, but at the same time, 16 feels like such a smaller commitment, such a smaller change that like I think people who have been threatened with 24 are willing to accept 16 because 16 doesn't even add around. You know, you just get buys and it's not, it's a big change, but it's not ultimately a change that would alter the season at all or the way that things work.

Now, this is the debate that you and I were having and that I wrote about at On 3. today, which is, is there a point where you can expand the playoff? Because going from 4 to 12 is three times as much and then doubling it, that's a lot of, that's a lot of change and that's a lot of, you know, math. In a very compressed time. A very short amount of time. Yeah. You and I, I think, agree on a lot of this stuff.

But, you know, part of the presentation in the room is what would television numbers for the regular season look like in a 2014 field. Let me let me add one thing before you get to that part. A lot of the push for a bigger playoff and especially for 24 is financially related. They're realizing that the conference championship games are less relevant now. They realize they need to replace them, but they want to replace the money that they be losing from the conference championship game. So they want to create a big enough playoff allegedly.

so that the extra money you get for the bigger playoff recoups what you'd lose or maybe gives you some more money than what you had in this system. There's a couple of reasons why that might not be the case and you've got the regular season aspect of it, which we're not even talking about yet. Yeah. And so the question that I have and what I wrote about, and I will post to you and we'll post to the audience listening, is there a number that you could get to when, whether that be 16, 24, or even beyond, or if any number, that would then return diminishing

results or diminishing returns on viewership for the first six weeks of the season, or even beyond that. Because there is a certain thing that is going to happen when you get to those teams. Because Andy, you know, we used to say that there used to be a huge gap between teams one and four and one and five in the four team era. I think that gap has diminished, you know, quite a bit in in this new era, but the gap, I feel like between 12 and 18 is massive now, where the 18th team in the country is, is pretty good, but they're not, which may change. And it might change, but we don't know if it will.

In fact, I'm very curious to see once we get into the third or fourth year of revenue share, whether we revert back to the old way, which is the teams that go way above and beyond NIL on top of Rev share, maybe it won't. Maybe the exact opposite thing will happen. I don't know. I don't have an Econ. I'll tell you, you know,

our guy Wilson Alexander had a story where he interviewed, or actually he watched Billy Glasscock, the LSU general manager, give a presentation to high school coaches. And Billy Glasscock was talking about how if they have a backup corner at LSU, somebody in the ACC's going to offer that person

three times as much as what LSU wants to pay them. And LSU can't offer that much because it, it puts, it sets their whole system out of whack based on what they're paying their starters. So that's how you can't stockpile talent anymore. That's how everything flattens out. It is a market finding its level. So if we ever get to a place.

I guess, I guess it's going to get to where team 18 will be closer to team one going for. And if we get to a place where team 18 could conceivably get hot and win the national championship, then I think that talking about 24 would be a rational thought process, Because the best thing about the 12 team field is that the 10th seed could have won it last year. They were 40 yards away. Let me throw something else out there because this is a talking point from the people who want 24 that I somewhat agree with. Now, later you're going to hear Ret Laschley, the SMU coach. And we talked to him about all kinds of stuff, including his team and their recruiting.

But I ask him a question about the playoff. and he gives a very interesting presentation for 24, that he makes a lot of good points. One of the things, though, that the 24 people say is that this will free up everyone to schedule harder non-conference games, that they're afraid to schedule now because they feel like it will cost them spots in the playoff. And so there's the difference with the regular season part for me, Ari,

because there's a couple pieces of it. Like, if nothing changes and you just expand the playoff, then yes, the regular season is less relevant. If expanding the playoff causes everyone to schedule better non-conference games, then you just made the beginning of the season more interesting. But my argument to that is you don't have to expand the playoff to schedule better non-conference games. You could just do that. Yeah. What they'll argue back at us is, but the committee is going to look at losses and not judge the schedules critically enough. But here's what I'll say.

If you have not already looked at this year's week one schedule, I want you to look at it. Like after the show, get on your phone and look at the week one schedule throughout the whole country. It's garbage. Like the entire sport failed spectacularly. at creating a TV product for week one. It's terrible. They should be ashamed of themselves. They can fix that now.

They don't need to expand the playoff to fix that. Yeah. Andy, in your opinion, do you think that there is a number, whether it be 24 or beyond, that would hurt the regular season's viewership? Is college football indestructible? Nothing's indestructible.

But I think college football and football in general is less problematic than the sports that play more games in the regular season. Be that regular season college basketball, regular season. Like regular season NBA, the NBA had a horrific time with this regular season this year. Like the teams made a joke of the regular season with the tanking and everything. Playoffs so far have been really fun. Yeah. But they have, you know, they have 30 teams, 16 of them make the playoffs and one half to make the playoff. But they turn their regular season into an absolute joke.

And the NFL hasn't done that. Even though 14 of 32 teams make the playoff, everybody still loves the NFL. I think part of it is culturally, we just like football better. And I don't think you can discount that. The other part of it is you can't play as many games in football. You will never be able to play. that many games in football. And the fact that you have this long layoff,

this eight-month layoff between games in college football, will build the pin-up demand that you're not going to stop people from watching it unless you really screw it up. Do you want to hear a fun fact? Yeah. The NBA viewership for the regular season. What do you think it did this past year

if you had to guess without knowing this? Then you might know it because you might. I don't even know, because I know they've had all the issues with the regional sports networks and trying to figure out how to televise it. You're talking about the nationally televised games? I'm just talking about regular season viewership in total. Okay, you tell me what happened because I don't know.

It went up 86% from the previous year. Interesting. Which makes no sense because what you're saying is, and I don't know if that's accessibility. I don't know what it is, but they did just find the massive television. This is the first year it was on NBC and on Amazon Prime. and so maybe it has something to do with that. Yes, but they just signed a media rights deal worth $77 billion with Disney.

So, like, they, that's the thing that I get so confused with, because as a fan of college football, the last thing on earth I would ever want, and I think everybody who's anti-20 forward want was, is it for it to feel like the NBA and for it to feel like college basketball, but then I go look and I see that the NBA through new distribution channels increase their viewership almost double in a single season. And it's like, well, now I understand why they're doing this. So, like, I don't know if there is a place where college football could ever get to

where people would be like, I'm not going to watch this Saturday. Well, that's what I've asked people for years. What else are you going to do on those Saturdays? You're not to, you're going to take up knitting. Like, this is a part of our culture that people get. gather Saturdays and watch college football. They gather Sundays and watch the NFL. And it is, it's good for those sports.

It's bad in a way that the stewardship of the sports does not have to be particularly great for them to be successful. Like they have an almost recession-proof product. And I think that hurts it at times. Because you can have people who have no idea what they're doing or in this case in college football, there's nobody really in charge. And they just keep tinkering with it.

and taint like they don't have to do that it's going to be successful either way so now they're chasing a bunch of revenue as an ATM that they can go up to at any point in time they take money out of and they they don't ever have to fear that there's no more money left in the machine then why wouldn't you tinker with it and guess what that means no that's it's exactly what's happening 24 is going to come and they're going to make a lot of money and then they're going to say well 36 we'll give us more money and then we'll have the same conversation. I'm not sure they're going to really make more money, though, because the value of, so this, this would add 12 games to the playoff itself.

It would be 23 games in the playoff as opposed to 11 now. The 11 that currently exists are worth probably three or four times more than the other 12 that would be added, just because that's how these things work. So they really wouldn't make that much more, especially because you're trading the conference championship games for it. Yeah, but if they've come up with a new system where they're like, well, this works, how about we add inventory? Then they'll make more money. Yeah. Well, can I, we've got a poll.

Yeah. The on three main Twitter account put up a poll on Wednesday. And it's still ongoing. There's about six hours left as we record this. So I've got the first 1,474 votes. but this is actually pretty consistent with what it looked like when we first put it out. Yeah, the results aren't really moving. The votes are coming in, but it's staying the same.

Yeah, so the options are stay at 12, go to 16, go to 24, or 4 was perfect. So 4 was perfect has 12%, but it is not last place. Last place is 24 with 9%. So this is just fans. It's unscientific, I'll admit, but this is the people who follow on three are fans of college football in And on three, from every way. It's a conglomerate of every fan from every level. People follow.

It would be if I post a poll, I would probably have a skewed result because mostly Ohio State fans follow me. That's who started following you first. Yes. And it worked out. Right. Yeah. So that is kind of poisoned by people who view it through the Ohio state lens.

But on three, I think is a pretty good of all the college football accounts on Twitter that I would want to run the poll. I think on three would be my. Yeah. We have team sites. over the big 10, all over the SEC. We have team size in the Big 12. We have team size in the ACC.

Okay. So 16 is at 35%. That's number two. Stay at 12 is number one with 44%. So stay at 12 or go to 16. So keep it at this number of rounds, if we're going to put it that way. That is 79% of the respondents.

Yeah. And the cool thing about staying at 12, Andy, is that you can change it later. Like that's the thing. Like it's not like it has to stay at 12. It doesn't say stay at 12 forever. You are overwhelming. Like the thing that everybody now seems to be favoring, the 24.

And when I say, I don't mean us. I don't mean everybody. I mean the people who are making decisions, the stakeholders. Like Greg Sankey wants 12 or 16. His presidents want 12 or 16. His coaches all want 24. So it's a lot of people.

But if the vast majority of your customers don't want it, should you not think twice before you ram it down their throats? And here's the thing, Andy. This was not the case, by the way. Remember we did these polls when it was four. The majority wanted bigger than four, whether that be eight or 12 or 16. but the majority wanted that.

This is a pretty clear indication. They do not like 24. 165,000 people saw this. Andy, that is such a good point. I'm happy you said it. This is the point that I made to you in texts. Your viewpoint, and I think I agree with it, is that football is on TV.

People will watch football because Americans love watching football and football is better than basketball. And because they're so, few games and we have this huge long gap between seasons where it builds up demand naturally. Yes. But unlike expanding from 4 to 12, which was the fan favorite, what happens if you do something that is the fan, that isn't the fan preference by a long shot?

And this feels like a bell you can't unring once you ring it. So I think the result would probably be everybody is going to watch all day Saturday and we're going to have a podcast and more teams are going to be involved in all these things. And even if the college football season is diminished, people will still watch. But is there a 1% chance that viewership would go down in totality? Because not every people who listen to our show are like me and you who sit in front of their TV and watch. There's a large college. It's not us. It's not us and not you guys they're worried about.

Yeah. What about we're talking about like people like my dad. who watch one big game a week because he's bought into the, there's a lot of viewers that check in, like on Saturday night and want to watch the game. And it's like a boxing promo, number one versus number three, who will make the playoff?

Don, no, no, no. Like, those are the people that I'm wondering, if they wouldn't, if they would vote stay at 12 or 16 in this poll, would those people be less likely to watch the games on Saturday? And would that hurt? See, I think we're asking the wrong. question and I I've said this all along and it's I know it's no fun for a podcast and it's not really

a debate because we can't easily pick aside but the regular season and the postseason need to be constructed together and sold together and I realize you may need an act of Congress for that to happen but guess what that's probably going to happen that sports broadcasting act is probably getting rewritten whether college football has anything to do with it or not because Now they're looking into it with the NFL. But it would be kind of cool, though, if anything that happened in the sport ever took into account what the people who love that the sport want. It would help. And that's the thing like, build a postseason that is fed by your regular season.

Build a regular season that logically flows into your postseason. They haven't ever, they've never done that. They've always been separate. Yeah. They shouldn't be separate. They should be one living organism. And for example, everybody, like I said earlier, everybody in college football should be ashamed of themselves that the week one schedule is so bad this year.

They screwed up. Yeah. They should never allow that to happen. And, you know, my, I'm sure people know this by now, but my father is a huge Cleveland Browns fan, right? Yeah. Or was. And I think he always says, well, the second that people stop going to the games is finally when people will make changes in the franchise to make them competitive. But the problem with that is is that everybody who loves the Browns loves the Browns.

And they want to go. Yeah, I still want to go. They still want to go and enjoy it and watch the team. So like the only way that the college football fan would be heard by the people in that room is if they turn their televisions off. But asking them to turn their televisions off is not fair to them because they love it. Like it's like it's interesting because in in soccer, they did listen to the fans when they revolted. remember they were going to do that Super League and it fell apart within 24 hours. And how did they revolt?

How do they do it? I don't know. They're like marching on on team facilities. Like it was it was pretty dramatic. Okay. Well, I don't know. I don't want to incite violence. But I don't know that that would happen here.

Yeah. I think people would be like, oh, well, I guess we'll just take what they give us. And actually sometimes coaches are just like, I'll just go along. Didn't Kurt Signetti literally just say that yesterday. He goes, just tell me with the Louvard, we'll do it. So, but there's, there's no way to boycott it. But the one thing that I do know is, is that once you expand out, there's no expanding down. Like, once you get to 24, there's no way to go back.

And the thing is, what if a Super League forms and that Super League is 67 is all the power conference in Notre Dame? Or what if that Super League is 48, which nobody. you know, who likes this show wants, but some TV executives might. And you have a 2014 playoff in a 48 team league. Like, that's not, that's not an exclusive playoff. That's no fun. Can I ask a question that I'm a layman in and you're better at knowing, but you would probably know the answer to this.

If Fox had even a sliver of the rights to show playoff games, would this be a question right now? Oh, Ari, I think you are 100% correct on this because the current contract that ESPN has goes up to a 14 team playoff in terms of what ESPN owns exclusively for the next five years. If you were to go to 24, you could sell quite a few games to Fox. Who's in bed with the Big Ten? Fox. The league that is leading the charge for 24? Yeah.

So yeah, it's not even, and even if the deal ended in a year and Fox had a chance to bid on one of the 12 games, one of the, in the 12 team, maybe this wouldn't be happening. By the way, this is not me defending ESPN either. I have no earthly idea why they so quickly resold the CFP to ESPN for the second contract. Like what did in, they parcel it out among the different networks. That would seem like a smarter thing. Like the NFL is better at this than you. and they parcel it out. Yeah. So it's just like that's the thing that I think is irking everybody. You and I are talking about,

what will the regular season mean? What does it mean for the sport? And it's like what's actually really happening is a television network is trying to get games on their TV. Yeah. And they're going to if they get a 2014 playoff, which again, that seems to be where the decision makers are heading.

but I will say something that seemed not great when it happened, which was the Big Ten and the SEC resting complete control of the playoff from everybody else, now allows either one of those parties to really muck up the works if they don't like what they see. And so that was the Big Ten last year, and that is the SEC currently. So if you don't want anything to change, root for those two to keep, arguing. Yes. And like if you're a person that wants 12 or 16, send an energy drink over to Greg Sankey's office. Because he's going to need it. His coaches and ADs are all of his coaches and probably

some of his ADs are already headed toward 24. So he's got a he's got to deal with them. He's got some, he's got some presidents on his side, which is probably okay for him. He needs more columns about player welfare and wear and tear on the body and all the issues that people brought up from the 12 team playoff started that are somehow not a thing. It has sailed. That ship has sailed with the NIL money. Yeah. Yeah, your body doesn't matter anymore.

Everybody's going to be fine. You can pay a masseuse. All right. Ari, there will be plenty of time to talk about this. No decisions will be made. Plus, we've got all the conference meetings coming up in May. This is going to get hashed out again.

You never know, because they're going to be. can be a quick reversal sometimes because like i went to the c c meetings of desks in last year and going in talking to ads they were on board with the big 10's idea for these these auto bids and the coaches just nuked that on the first day and it was over now the big 10 has gotten gotten off the auto bids not what the reason the big 10 got everybody else talking about 24 and amenable to 24 is they made it all out of that. largest. That's what that was the the negotiating tactic that Tony Petitius that has worked really well. So I don't know what's going to happen, but I do know. You know he hasn't spoken to the

media in a year? That's not true. When did he? When's the last time he spoke to him? Well, he talked to Big Ten Media days. That was definitely less than a year ago. That's what I meant. Like I know he's he's he's talked between now. But no, he doesn't talk as much as Greg. I just feel like. I just feel like like I'd love to hear from him because he's the one leading the charge on this. Yeah. Well, he's got, but now he's got some proxies to talk for him. So it's going to be interesting to see what they do. I don't know how this all ends.

But I do know all the coaches love 24. You're about to hear from a coach who likes 24. And Rat Lashley makes some really good points. in his argument. That said, I still don't want it. I'm happy I was having some internet issues during that part of the interview. Well, I like that we gave him the floor for that

because he, the one thing I love about Redd is he is not shy about his opinions about anything in terms of the greater scope of the game. He'll talk, you know, he's happy to talk about his team as well, but he's not shy about what he thinks the game should be doing. and, you know, he's clearly put thought into it. You'll see.

You know what else I think is cool about it, too, Andy? Hmm. And I don't know if this is just me, but when you have a good young coach, like Ret Lashley, who is actually doing a really good job at his job, I'm more keen to listen to that person than I am from somebody who's failing. Right, exactly. Because sometimes when people aren't doing well and they want changes,

it means that the motivation might be different. Like, Red Lashley has already made the time. 12 team playoff. He doesn't need to change it to make it. He's already proven he can do it. So his opinion to me seems more valid. Yeah. And I don't know if we talk enough about what what he's done since he got there, but he wins the American right when he gets there. They go to the ACC. He makes the playoff. He makes the ACC championship game year one. Last year was not a bad year for them. Certainly there were three games they wish had gone differently that were very close,

but they've been right there. And so he now thinks he's got the most talent on the team he's had since he's been at SMU, loves what they've been able to do in high school recruiting. This is a really interesting team to watch this year. And by the way, you're going to get, I mentioned week one, it's not, the slate's not great.

We've got Clemson, LSU, we got Notre Dame, Wisconsin, we got Louisville, Ole Miss. There's not much else going on, But that Labor Day game, SMU going to Tallahassee to play Florida State is going to be really interesting for both those parties. You know, for Florida State that they want to try to prove that they are better than they've been. And SMU, meanwhile, that is their chance to plan a flag with everybody watching, hey, we're here to stay. So let's talk to Rhett Lashley about a team that he is very excited about and the future of college football.

We're joined now by the head coach of the SMU Mustangs, Rhett Lashley, and big times in Dallas, Rhett. I heard you say on a show the other day that you guys have not lost a player that you wanted to keep in the transfer portal in four years. And I'm looking at your transfer portal situation from this past off season. You guys brought a lot back.

Is this where you wanted this program to be at this point. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, being in the ACC and being in the conversation, you know, each year to compete for the championship in our league and a chance to make the playoffs is the goal. And, you know, I think that stat to say out loud kind of blows my mind. I mean, we're going to lose guys in this poor layer and we have. But most of the guys have been guys that just wanted more playing time or, you know,

and they left for positive reasons and they had good success where they went. But for whatever reason, our staff has done a great job with the culture and the relationships. And every year at the end of the year, we start with trying to retain the guys before we worry about going out in the portal and getting guys because, you know, the guys here are the ones that have helped us win. And they're the most important. And then once we realize who's staying, we can go out and try to put the pieces around them to build the best team we can. And so, you know, it's a lot easier when you can bring back pieces each year as opposed to having to start from scratch. I look back at last year, you guys made the playoff two years ago. Everybody always qualifies SMU for made the playoff two years ago.

But your three losses in the regular season, or your three losses in total, two or an overtime, and one was by three points in regulation on the road. You know, you guys are, even though you didn't make the playoff last year, we're a very good team last year. You're bringing a lot back. They beat a team that played for the national title. How's the program? I know, that's right.

trajectory-wise, it got to be great. Yeah, so I'm sorry, what was the question? I said the trajectory of the program has to feel great. Yeah, yeah, it does. I mean, you know, we kind of knew going into last year, we lost nine of 11 starters off that defense in 24 that took us to the playoffs. We lost probably 70, 80% of our yardage production from Breschard Smith to a bunch of our receivers. But we did have Kevin Jennings coming back,

but we knew it was going to be a little bit of a slow start potentially, just so many new faces for whether they'd be high school kids or incoming guys in the portal. And so we started off slow two and two. Then we really started playing well. We still lost both games early, but, you know, like you said, one and double overtime. And both we lost fourth quarter leads in. But then we got rolling in the conference and, you know, had some good wins at Clemson and beat Miami at home, like you said.

But we just were a little inconsistent. I think three of our four games, we lost on the last play of the game. We led in all all those four games in the fourth quarter. So we just were a little inconsistent, didn't finish a few games as good as we could, but still won the Holiday Bowl, won nine games and finished just outside the championship game and the playoff conversation. But I just think if nothing else had validated that, you know, the year before wasn't a fluke, we had a solid year, you know, but we want more.

And we do have a good number of guys coming back this year, good experience, the best high school recruiting class we've ever signed coming in. And the year before it was the best before that. So two really good high school classes, good returners like Kevin Jennings and others. And then we added about 15 or 16 portal pieces that we think can help, you know, maybe us have a better complete team this year than we did a year ago. You've given credit for that defensive improvement being the thing that really lifted you guys into the playoff, into ACC contention. Scott Simons, your D.C. leaves to go to the Cowboys.

But instead of going on a national search, you elevate Maurice Crum and Ricky Hunley to be the co-D.C., sees, how important was it to keep the continuity there? I think it's definitely no. I mean, I think it was the no-brainer decision. You know, I knew about 18 months ago, probably with the time we, you know, played in the playoff in 24. That was the second year that Mo, Ricky, and Scott had all been on staff here together. And I just knew that, you know, at some point, Scott was going to get a head job or NFL job or whatnot. And at that point, I really felt strongly that when that time came, it would most likely make the most sense to have Mo and Ricky take over.

Ricky's been with Scott for a decade, you know. So we start talking about the scheme and the defense. He knows it as good as anyone. And then someone like Mo, I mean, Mo's called defenses before. He's been a coordinator. And both of those guys, they know what we've done and kind of the foundation of the defensive culture here. So it makes it a seamless transition for our players.

You don't have to overhaul the scheme and bring someone in and just start from scratch. At the same time, they really connect well with our players. There's our guys trust them. They play hard for them. And, you know, so a lot of the main things won't change at the same time. With Scott getting that great opportunity and we're so thankful for what he's done for this program, it gives a little bit of a fresh perspective and just enough of a change that, you know, may help us take a leap here in year five.

Right. You mentioned the recruiting improvements. I noticed in each of the last two classes, you guys signed 15 Texas kids. Obviously, if you want to get to where you ultimately want to go, what you do in high school recruiting in this state, a highly competitive state, a deep state, with a lot of really good programs in it. You're going to have to start and continue to win battles against some of the legacy programs in the state. How has the reaction to SMU been with high school players in the state of Texas? And do you feel the culture changing on the outside

of the building, too, when you walk into high schools or call kids and try to recruit these high school players that are being recruited by A&M and Texas and other Texas programs? Yeah. I mean, it's night and down. from when I got hired four years ago, just night and day. I mean, it's cool to go to SMU again. And, you know, to your point, Texas is our home state, and it's such a talent-rich state with the best high school coaching in America. And then you got Dallas and Houston,

two of the top three to four cities for high school talent every year, year-in, year-out. And, you know, we just get to be the only, you know, Division I school in Dallas. And so we've noticed a huge shift from going to the ACC and winning of the caliber of players where we're, recruiting in the last two to three years has completely changed. You know, last year we signed a top 25 class pretty much by every everyone out there who ranks them in a service standpoint for

the first time ever. Nine of our top, nine of the top 35 players in the DFW Metroplex came to SMU. We signed more P4 players out of Dallas than anybody in the country. And that was the first time I think we've ever done that. And so I just think that's big, you know, look, were winning recruiting battles literally in last year's class alone against Texas, Texas A&M, Alabama, Ohio State, LSU, Oklahoma. Now, hey, they beat us too. I'm not like sitting here acting like, hey, they, but we're in those kind of battles for those kind of players now. And that's just what in the case three or four years ago. Well, and that's a conversation that SMU was never going to be in three or four years ago. Part of it is, is you guys winning. Part of it is probably

the conference affiliation, but how much of it is just how the world has changed, too? Yeah, you know, the world has changed, and we're fortunate to have enough resources and commitment here to be competitive with everyone else. But by no means, do we have the highest payroll or, you know, are we just going out and buying guys, but we're able to be competitive in the revenue share, NIL landscape. But it's a lot of the ACC piece in the winning. You know, winning matters everywhere. But now kids are coming here. and we're playing Florida State and we're playing Miami and we're playing Clemson and we're playing Louisville. Like we have national brands in our conference and then we're playing Notre Dame's and we're playing

Oklahoma's and LSUs and like they can come to SMU now and play on the biggest stage. They can feel like, hey, I don't have to leave Texas or I don't have to leave Dallas to play on that stage. And before, that just wasn't the case, right? We were in a good conference, but we weren't on the big stage and the Power 4. And until we broke through to do that, we were just never going to compete with those caliber kids out of high school. Now we can. And I think it's a combination of really all three things.

One of the main offseason talking points about Notre Dame is their weak schedule. And everybody always chimes in and goes, but they have SMU, which means that SMU is viewed differently. But think about that. They were four years ago. But at the same time, is it also? Yeah, but I think to your point, that just shows how in just a couple of years, the brand has gotten a recharging. charge, if you will, like, you know, there was 75 years where SMU was a really good program, and Doak Walkers and Eric Dickerson's and Southwest Conference. And then there was just a gap. And now,

you know, we've won to the point that we're in the conversation for the top 25 every year. We're in the conversation to win the ACC and contend for the playoff. And when someone talks about Notre Dame, they say, hey, they play Miami, BYU, and SMU, though. And we're considered one of those teams that is going to be a challenge for them. And that just, you know, for 40 years, that wouldn't have been the case. And so I think in such a short time, you can see what we've been able to do that just shows we should have stain power. And hopefully we're just scratching the surface. We got to keep winning.

We got to keep competing in those moments against the Notre Dame's, the Miami's, the Clemsons, et cetera. But we're on that stage again where we feel like we belong and we get that opportunity now. When you left Miami as the OC to come to SMU, what made you believe that you could make SMU to use your phrase cool again? I mean, because you and I are the same age. Like, they got the death penalty when we were in elementary school. And it's been a long, you know, journey through the wilderness. So what was it about the administration, the, you know, the donor base? Who gave you confidence and how did you decide that this can happen?

Yeah, and you do. We look good for our age, right? Absolutely. But so I had the benefit. I grew up, to your point, in the Southwest Conference days, I grew up in Arkansas and they would play SMU in the Southwest Conference, but that was right after the death penalty. What I remember, and, you know, SMU is who everybody just beat.

And, but I had had the benefit of being here before, and that really was the main thing. I was here in 18 and 19. And 2019 was a year with Shane Bachel. We won 10 games for the first time since 84. It kind of started to get a little life into the program, and the city started embracing us. And so go to Miami when this job opened up, I mean,

I knew enough people. I knew we could win here. I knew what I thought the formula could be. And I knew at least the goal and the vision was finally to go all in athletically from David Miller becoming the board chair and Bill Armstrong support. And what our administration was starting to say is, okay, look, we're going to build this football complex facility, the Weber end zone that I'm sitting in now. And we didn't have that, right? And we're going to invest in trying to get back in a power conference because that's where we feel like we belong. And I think it just, everyone just finally said enough's enough. We know what we're capable of. We know what we have. We just got to get a seat back at the table.

And I just, one, I felt ready to be a head coach, but doing it at a place I was familiar with. I knew that we could win. I knew the recruiting footprint. And knowing that if we ever did break through and get in a power conference, what I thought we could do. And it just, I like building things. And it just felt excited to come, you know, try to be a part of that.

Brett, when you were just talking there, you said that SMU had some tent pole things that you can build a blueprint around. But so much has changed in college football, so much has changed at SMU specifically. And all the stuff that you maybe thought going into it has been changed by things around you. How much has that blueprint that you had in your mind when you were going through that process changed? Or has it just been enhanced by more advantages of being in a bigger conference? Yeah, it's an awesome question. I mean, I got hired like about December 1 of 2021. That just happened to be the first December where we had unlimited transfers in NIL at the same time.

So my first month on the job was not what I ever thought it would be trying to just keep a roster and have some players for the first year. But, you know, it's a little bit of everything. You know, I think, but we're all playing by the same rules. So when things change, everybody's like, well, does it help you or not? I think it helps everybody as long as your university is committed. And I'm just fortunate to get to be the head coach here at a time where our university is committed. We have the resources.

We have a powerful donor base. We have a really good administration. And so, you know, whether it's the ability to rev share now, being in the ACC, you know, being in a great recruiting footprint, it's a little bit of everything. It's just I feel blessed to be here at the perfect time. There's a lot of coaches over the last couple decades that didn't have the same opportunity, but they stayed in there and allowed the program to get to this point for this moment. And I just think we're well positioned for the way college football is today and into the future. And like I said, I just get to be here at the right time.

Well, let's talk about the future a little bit. You've never been shy about giving your opinions about how things should work. You've made the playoff in the 12-team format. is where the commissioners are arguing about format right now. Yeah. What's your ideal playoff look like? Yeah. I think we got a story from the standpoint of everyone needs to recognize it.

It's a new day and things are different. So the way we used to do things before just isn't going to work anymore. And that's okay. Change is fine. And then the second thing we got to all recognize is there's no perfect scenario that everybody's going to think is excellent and be happy with. There's going to be downside to whatever we do. So how do we get it the best we can?

can and the downside we can live with. You know, it's got to be between 16 and 24. And I think, you know, there's a fair argument for 16, but not under the way we do things in terms of a committee picking, because it's just such a popularity contest. And it's just, you're not going to have the proper inclusion. Here's why 24 should be what we go to now. There's a variety of reasons. First and foremost, 24 out of 136 teams is like 17% of the teams. Well, to put that in perspective, All right, there's about 18 and a half percent of the teams getting the NCAA basketball tournament every year. And about 21% of the college baseball teams

get into the playoffs. So it's kind of on par more so than we are right now with a much smaller number being 12. So I think it gives you good inclusion. I think there's nothing wrong with more players, especially that because of the college football landscape, now there's more parity. I mean, Indiana just won the national title.

Okay, last two years ago, we got in, Arizona State got in, et cetera. I think it's probably easier to get in the playoff than ever before. It's harder to win it. But there's more parity now. And so I think this whole old way of doing things, it's going to be the same four to eight teams every year is not realistic anymore. You see what Texas Tech did last year, et cetera. Ole Miss getting in.

I mean, there's just going to be more and more parity. So 24 is a good number. And we have a great benchmark. 1-DAA plays a 2014 playoff that starts the week after the regular season ends. It ends on January 6th. Like, and the other thing the 2014 will allow us to do is fix the number one issue right now. There's a lot of issues, but we have to fix. The one thing we can fix that we have to fix is the calendar in our schedule.

We should never be playing a national championship game on January 25th or 6th or whatever it is. So in order to pull the season back up and start in week zero and, you know, maybe get it to where we can always play no later than the second Monday in January and take advantage of those first couple Saturdays in December for playoff games when there's no NFL being played on Saturday. We wait until the NFL starts playing on Saturdays and then gripe that our Saturdays are taken up, pull it up, and, you know, it's probably going to mean the end of conference championship games. But if you had 24 teams getting in, you could probably assure that at least four from every powerful league gets in, you're going to have good parity. You're going to make more money. You're going to get two weeks of on-campus games.

And the great thing about it is I hear it's not going to devalue the regular season at all. It's actually going to enhance the regular season. Oh, it's going to devalue? No, it's not, because 24 is still a small number. But what it means is in week 8, 9, 10, 11, that many more teams are still at live to get in, as opposed to by week 8 or 9, the committee's already ranked it,

and they've kind of told us who's in or out for the most part. I think it would, it makes a lot of sense, and I know the majority are starting to get behind it. I think Tony Petiti is willing to fight the ACCC for SMU now after that answer, the Big Ten Commissioner. that's maybe the best portrayal of what they've been trying to say for the last year. So it is fascinating, but I mean, you've done it. And for you, Rhett, you got in, and then you may have had a better team last year than the one that got in.

How much did you learn from last season, from the way those games went down, those losses happen? Yeah, and I'm not trying to be disagreeable. I don't know if we had a better team last year, just because, because our defense two years ago was really good. And we had Bershard Smith on offense and allowed us to run the football better. We kind of, we were okay on defense last year. We were good.

We weren't as good as we were. Offensively, we didn't run the ball as good. And so, but, you know, I think we did, we did have a good team here we got in. We had a lot better team than we played at Penn State. Our defense played good enough to win that game. It was just a complete offense debacle that kind of let that game get away

from us. So we didn't have her best showing there. But last year, we did make a run and got to a position. To your point, our ceiling was high enough to be to Miami. But then we lost to, I mean, a really good nine-win wait force team. We lost a cow. We lost a blown lead to Baylor, et cetera, that they kept us from getting in and maybe achieving our highest potential. I think it's just what we learned is, I mean, it's the margin and winning and the powerful

level is so small. We said, we let every game in the fourth quarter. We lost three out of four in the last play of the game. And so what our team last year didn't do as good as the year before is we didn't make ourselves hard to beat as much. You know, penalties, a few turnovers here, there, but just more of the penalties, undisciplined things that allowed those games to get to the last play of the game. And so we were just a little bit inconsistent. I do think we had a team that could have, you know, could have competed to win that championship game had we won our last game and made some noise. But I was proud that we got nine wins out of it and kind of went back to back, solid seasons.

but we feel like we might have our most complete team going into this year. And Kevin Jennings is the centerpiece of that, the quarterback coming back for year. I mean, he's started now across four different seasons because he started in the ACC, or I'm sorry, the American championship game. But you told a story to Adam Brennaman about recruiting him. And I love these stories from coaches. And I just want to know what it feels like when you get to a high school game and you see a player, and you know he's the best player on the field

and you don't understand why everybody in the world hasn't offered him because at that point Kevin Jennings, I think was committed to Missouri State. What is that feeling like? And how do you reconcile it? Because I've heard Nick Saban talk about it with Josh Jacobs, like he sent Burton Burns to go,

like, figure out what's wrong. Why is this guy not got offers? Yeah. It's interesting. But the Kevin story is true. I mean, we went, I've been on the job a few weeks. We went to watch a bunch of other players at a game

and someone told me, you know, the quarterback's a good player. He's committed to Missouri State, which Bobby Petrino was there at the time. So we know he knows good quarterback play. And just watching him, it was just, it was obvious that he was a guy. He was a dude. And we didn't have a, when I came in, they didn't have a QB committed in the class. So we needed a quarterback commit. Who better than the hometown kid that's about to win a state title at South Oak Cliff?

But yeah, I mean, you do ask yourself that sometimes as coaches, just because now people don't get missed as much just because there's so much technology and easier ways to get through it. But sometimes, I mean, especially at quarterback, most schools only take one. So you start thinking the whole country, 136. I wasn't here. I was at Miami, but maybe all the schools around the area had looked at Kevin, said, man, we like him, but we already got a commitment. Or we like this guy.

And so sometimes guys fall through the crack, not as much as they used to. But, man, what a blessing for us to find someone like Kevin, who's a winner, super talented. and just loves Dallas and loves SMU and was thankful to be here. And because of that, you know, he's shown that loyalty back to our program and our school. And to have a guy to your point, starting a game in his fourth year is almost unheard of now. If he's healthy by game four or five, he'll break every passing record here at SMU. And he's creating an incredible legacy for himself. But he's been a huge, huge part of this kind of ascension we've had over the last three or four years.

Brett, you are creating quite a legacy for yourself too. thank you so much for joining us and enjoy the spring game on Friday night. Thanks, guys. And Ari, let us know how it goes out there, okay? That is Rhett Lashley. And Ari, I always love those stories about when they go to recruit the guy and they're like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, why doesn't everybody want this player? Am I taking crazy pills? Yeah.

I think he was right, though. That happens more and more infrequently than it used to. It does. People don't miss much anymore. But Kevin Jennings was one. That, you know, I think if schools have done a better eval job, then maybe SMU does not wind up with him. And he has been just great for them.

And I think part of the build at SMU has been so smooth because you've had that quarterback. He's been really, really talented, really fun to watch, but also it feels like he hasn't hit his last gear yet. Right. So if he does, then SMU, has a chance. But I will say, it's been very impressive to watch what he's built there. And they're certainly on the right track. And, you know, every single time River has put up a Kevin Jennings

picture, I have been remorseful about not including them in my uniform rankings. Those are so sick. Oh, yeah. The triple D Dallas helmets are great, but I still argue that just the logo, which I realize is just that one, similar to the Ford Mustang logo. It's one of the great helmet logo. Like the SMU Mustang, the Clemson Tiger Paw, the Texas Longhorn, like just the great mascot helmet sticker. Perfect. Yeah. But I'm going to go visit him too soon and write about him as well.

So I was happy that Red came on and obviously are always very grateful for any coach that gives us their time. And by the way, Andy, sometimes people ask me like, hey, guys, how do you do a show every day? This week's been great. Yeah. coaches, players, you got something to say? Come on. We're here.

Every day. Every day. It's been a lot of fun. Like, this week's been so much fun because, like, Red Lashley's fantastic. We had Kurt Signetti. I loved talking to Jaden Craig, the new CCU quarterback. Because, I mean, how many people have, what a life. You've graduated from Harvard.

And now you're going to go play, you know, QB1 and the Big 12. Like, it's crazy. When you have those 15-minute conversations with people, too. I feel like I have like a real understanding of who he is and and it changes the way you view the games when they're on TV in the fall. So well, yeah, that Dublin game was already pretty fun because we, we saw TCU in North Carolina last year and it obviously created some headlines. But that Dublin game is going to be a lot of fun.

So this is, this is interesting though. Ari, we had news on on Wednesday late in the day. And we knew this was coming. But it was one of those things that when the news actually hit, it's almost as if people forgot this was coming. Alabama extended Kalin DeBoer, seven-year contract, new contract, seven years, $12.5 million per year.

We knew this was going to happen because Kalin DeBore, during all that stuff with Michigan when it had an opening, Alabama was getting ready to play Oklahoma in the playoff, we knew there was discussion on a new deal. And the reason that Kailen DeBoer never engaged with Michigan at any point was Alabama stepped up. But then they lose 38 to 3 in the Rose Bowl. And I don't think there would have been an advantageous time to announce this.

But they announced it Wednesday. And man, people were confused. Does this feel like, I don't know. I don't want to say this. I change my mind. I'm not, I'll say it. It's a podcast. Is this, could this turn into Norville?

It goes sideways. What's so interesting is Norvelle became Norvelle because of this coaching search. Yeah. Because Norvel was one of the other names involved in the search to replace Nick Sabin. And we don't know if Norvel was the first choice or DeBore was the first choice. I think DeBore was actually the first choice. But Florida State couldn't risk. that sign might norville this huge extension it's not been good that if if they're bad again

floristate's going to have to pay an insane figure this is not that i will tell you why this is not that are you because alabama's not been bad at any point under caled abhor and i don't think alabama is ever going to be bad under canela of bore yeah the thing about it is they don't have to go too and 10 to be norval though i think if they're correct so this is this is the nuance of it. Yeah. He's the guy replacing Nick Saban.

And everybody knows that and everybody understands that. That still isn't easy to reconcile when you are used to dominating the way that Nick Saban dominated in Alabama. And so

the first two seasons of Kalin aboard Alabama, while good by almost anyone else's standards, are not viewed as successful for Alabama. And then you're giving him a raise because you had no, I mean, this raise came at gunpoint, essentially.

They had to get Michigan off his back. Okay, so do we know the timing of this? They agreed to it back in- This was all, yeah, this was all going on in December. And then when was it signed? Do we know? It was final. I'm assuming it was finalized recently because that's,

they announced it when they finalize it. Yeah, and then once you sit on it. Yeah, once you, uh, come to an agreement, you come to an agreement, whether it be verbal or not. But it's just like, could Greg Byrne have gotten out of this? You mean, could Greg Byrne have gone and said, you know, gone to Jimmy Sexton and the CIA agency represent Kalin-Borren said, I realized we agreed on this, but then you got Sheldon the Rose Bowl and what are you going to do about it now?

Nothing for you. I suppose you could do that, but I, that's probably not good for business if you try that. And then you also run the risk of the thing that you're afraid of happening. happening next year, which is losing a good coach. Right. And that's the other part with this. I'm not sure everybody understands. They love Kailen Abor.

I'm not talking about all Alabama fans where opinions may vary. The administration of Alabama loves Kailen Abor. They would like Kailen Abor to be their head coach for a long, long time. They want this to work out. They want everybody to be happy. They believe that he can be exactly what they need. Yeah. And Kenlyn DeBoer has never really bottomed.

So, like, the fact is that, you know, I just don't know. Are we going to be on this pod in three years talking about the useless extension? Or because Michigan was involved quasi, they have a, at least they have a reason. They have an excuse. But here's the thing. I've just given you the defense of this. None of it matters if he's eight and four this year, which by the, the way, eight and four is not bad. It's not terrible, but it is not up to their standard.

You know, and then what do you do? What do you mean? What do you do? They can't, they literally made a contract so they could do nothing. That's, that's what this is what's happening here. There is a right. And that was, that was the other thing that was interesting. There was confusion, I think, from, from people on the internet when this came out because they did, they did change the buyouts, but only the buyouts for if Kailen DeBor leaves for another job. They basically doubled those so it goes 10 million and then after a year it's 8 million and that you know it goes down accordingly you know i had a you know at daycare a lot of the other dads um know what i do and some listen to the show and some don't but as a result of the nature of this and i'm sure you go

through this every day andy people come up to you and want to talk about college football which is great it's a good by a product of the job it's my favorite thing to talk about anyway And I was talking to a grandpa, actually, at Grandparents Day, who was a big Bama fan. And he was talking about Kailen DeBore. And I said to him, you know, I think what's interesting is that, you know, Alabama has been the most spoiled fan base in all of college football. But given the way that they sit on the NIL food chain and the way that the sport has altered and changed in the competitiveness of all the teams in the conference that didn't really exist. years ago. I think that Alabama fans also have to understand and recalibrate their brains on what a successful season looks like and how good you can be annually every year or annually. And he looked

at me and goes, what? He goes, we're Bamma. And I'm like, yeah, you are Bamma. But Texas A&M's Texas A&M and Texas is Texas and Georgia's Georgia. And now all of a sudden Vanderbilt's Vanderbilt. like all these other teams are in the mix. Indiana is Indiana. You are no longer levitating above the rest of the sport. So if Kalin DeBoer goes 10 and 2 one year, you know what, man, that might be a great year that you love and cherish. Listen, and I looked at him straight in the face. I said, listen, Nick Sabin is not your coach anymore because he saw this coming.

He is not your coach anymore because he knew going undefeated or only losing ones and having more talent than everybody else was no longer tenable. So as we understand the sport differently, I think Alabama fans need to come around back down to earth a little bit and say, hey, maybe we'll win a national title once a decade. But winning six in a 15-year period, that's never happening again. I think there's more Alabama fans that understand that than maybe we think. I hope. But when you're wearing the crown, it's kind of hard to give the crown away.

Yeah. Also, that said, if they go eight and four, all bets are off, baby. Like everybody's going to be mad. Well, is there like, like, listen, it's very easy. I even had the temptation and maybe I'll still do it. I don't know. To write, what are we doing here? Because he hasn't exceeded expectations at Alabama yet.

And he got a contract. He did enough to earn the money they gave him originally. Did he do enough to earn a raise? Probably not. But what we always say about any market anywhere, you're worth, whatever someone's willing to pay you. And they did not, like, my main criticism of athletic directors

and coaching salaries is when you bid against yourself. They didn't bid against themselves here. Are you sure? Because if he was never, ever based on self-conviction, go on Michigan. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Okay.

He would have talked to them. They incentivized it to not talk to them. Okay. I am so naive sometimes. Now, it may have been logistically difficult for that to happen after they beat Oklahoma. But Michigan could wait another week. If Alabama didn't back up the brink's truck and extend him out until my daughter's in college for $12.5 million a year, would he be Michigan's coach right now? Probably not.

There may have been a conversation. I know, but probably not, right? What's it worth to risk that? Well, it turns out it might be $100 million. dollars. No, it would be $100 million. I mean, the buyout, if he were to get fired after this season with the new deal is $67.5 million.

It was going to be an obscene amount of money if they didn't extend him. It still would have been in the $40 million range. Yeah. So it's not like they didn't put themselves on the hook for another $100 million. But one thing I wanted to bring up to. Andy before we go because I know we're pushing time here. It's very easy to fixate on the negative with this

stuff because we become cynical with long absurdly expensive contracts. Yes. Can Kaelin DeBoer what gains something from not having his ass on the fire the way that he had to kind of operate the last two years? I would definitely go a little bit and if he wants to wear

Jim shorts to practice, can he just wear them to practice and not every way? Yeah, he can wear a T-shirt he can wear a T-shirt. He can wear a goddamn t-shirt. and like it'll be okay and then just let him do his thing because you know what guys he has the job because he's a really good coach and you know i i do i'm so amused by how our views of whether a coach is good or bad fluctuates so dramatically I do, but I do think is this is more us than the Alabama fan base right now. Did you see the threads on the message boards?

I did, but it's also more the rival fans too. But yeah, there's a few Alabama fans, but I still, most of them are more rational than we realize. But I do think you make a great point. Like this feels like security. Like, I realize that Texas A&M did pay Jimbo more to leave. But that's still feels like an outlier. Yeah, does Texas A&M also have more resources just in totality than Alabama? Yeah, I mean, Kentucky's paying Mark Stoops a ton.

Penn State didn't end up having to pay James Franklin, but they were willing to. Because James Franklin ended up taking a $9 million lump sum. but so you do see that these are interesting and now i will say calen de bores has has no offset so if you were to do that you you're paying it just like a and m with with jimbo so yeah i i think that probably makes it prohibitive gets everybody off his back at least from a realistic standpoint I mean, fans can get mad or, you know, want people to be fired whenever they want to. But I don't think Alabama's administration wants to do anything. I think they're happy.

And I think they now have put them in a situation where he shouldn't be worried about it at all. And I assume we'll talk about this again in the future, whether it be positive or negative. We'll talk about it again before they even play another game. We'll revisit it. But it is interesting. And my hope is to Bama fans that, and Caitlin too, because he's, He's a great guy who doesn't like that guy, you know, that it works out. So we'll see.

NFL draft tonight. We do. I'm excited. First round tonight. We'll be watching that. We'll break down the first round. We'll also talk about who the best players left on the board are on tomorrow's show before the second and third rounds begin. We got the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight, too, by the way, if you're a big NBA guy.

I know you thought you were cheap on up 86%. Also a random ranking, popular songs that fail. fans of college football teams have adopted. So these aren't their fight songs. This is not something your band's playing. This is a song that was on the radio that your team took and it became part of the game to experience. We rank the top five of those.

And there's way more than you think because we made the whole list and it's something. So if you thought the uniform rankings were controversial, I think this will be more. This will be more contentious. But we'll be doing that tomorrow. Also, dear Andy, dear Ari, get your questions in. We've already got some really good ones.

We need to revisit one from last week because we seriously omitted an answer that we needed to talk about. But Andy Stapleson3 at gmail.com, ari.wasterman at on3.com. Send us your questions. We will answer them to the best of our abilities. And enjoy the first round of the draft tonight, everybody.

We'll talk to you tomorrow.