Andy & Ari On3 - Does the settlement with Florida State and Clemson set an expiration date on the ACC?

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

This show is brought to you by Panini America, makers of the most collectible sports cards on the planet. The Prism football card series a vibrantly paralleled base and insert roster featuring college football’s brightest former and current superstars. Panini sets include NIL autographed cards from players including Arch Manning, Quinn Ewers, Cam Ward, Jalen Milroe, Dylan Raiola, DJ Lagway, and Luther Burden. To start collecting, visit PaniniAmerica.net. State and Liberty makes modern athletic fit clothing for men who want to look great and be comfortable at the same time. Whether you’re looking for an athletic fit suit or your new favorite hoodie, State and Liberty has what you need. New customers get 10 percent off when they use the code ANDYARI, or you can visit this link: https://tidd.ly/4gVLuUE(0:00-1:48) Intro: Is the ACC in trouble?(1:49-14:00) ACC's Expiration Date?(14:01-20:21) Streaming Services going for Big Ten, SEC?(20:22-28:55) The Future of College Football(28:56-36:09) The "Perfect" College Football Playoff(36:10-39:57) Wrapping up the ACC discussion(39:58-43:55) PaniniAmerica.net(43:56-56:43) Should Cooper Flagg consider staying at Duke?(56:44-59:21) Notre Dame to ever join a conference?(59:22-1:00:30) Conclusion The ACC plans to settle lawsuits with Clemson and Florida State, and the various boards are expected to approve the settlement on Tuesday. Who came out on top? It sure seems like Clemson and Florida State (and North Carolina and Miami). The ACC has a set a sliding scale of buyout costs should a school want to leave the league, and the number gets very manageable just as the Big Ten’s current TV deal expires. Does this mean there is an expiration date on this version of the ACC? Lastly, Andy & Ari discuss Duke phenom Cooper Flagg and if he should consider staying another year in Durham.  Watch us on YouTube instead! https://youtube.com/live/CMZCCQcmN7s Hosts: Andy Staples, Ari WassermanProducer: River Bailey

Welcome to Annie and Ariane 3. It is a very busy day here in the middle of the off season. Normally we have some kind of pre-planned stuff, but we've got to talk about what's going on in the world. And that is that sometime today we think the ACC and Florida State and Clemson will all have their various board meetings and approve a settlement that ends all of the lawsuits where they've all sued each other. Like the ACC sued Florida state, Florida state sued the ACC, Clemson sued the ACC, the ACC sued Clemson, but we think they're getting it all settled today.

And Ari, it's pretty interesting the way it all got settled out because I think the ACC did a pretty good job trying to spin this leaking it to their pet reporters and you know, setting it up in a way that the first few stories came out saying, this looks like you know, a good deal for the ACC. Oh, no, once you get into the into the nuts and bolts of this Florida State and Clemson kick the ACC's ass no. Once you get into the into the the nuts and bolts of this Florida State and Clemson kick the ACC's ass on this thing. Yeah, they they did and you know you get what you want and

then it also feels like there is unfortunately going to be an escape hatch later on down the line too, right? Is that your understanding of this? Well, unfortunate if you're Wake Forest, not unfortunate if you're Florida State or Clemson and you want to get out. Unfortunately, if you're the ACC because it doesn't feel like this is, I mean, I don't know, you tell me, does this feel like the ACC is built to prosper long term as a result of this or no? I think there's an expiration date on it now. And so let's talk about what that is, why that is. So the thing that got the most headlines is the unequal revenue sharing, which is what basically the ACC solution to this was, we'll give you guys some more money, Florida State, Clemson, North Carolina, probably Miami wants a little more money.

And the way they do that is they're going to take that from the other members. They're going to take that from Boston college and from Syracuse and from Wake forest. And so the teams that get the highest TV ratings in football and basketball and also win, we'll get more money up to fifteen hundred or fifteen million dollars a year maybe even a little more than that more than everybody else and so that would push you from 45 million to 60 million which is great still not going to be as much as what the sec and the big 10 schools get especially after the new college football playoff deal kicks in. So the other part of that, and you mentioned the date, they've got to, they've now set a number that you can pay if you want to get out of the ACC.

So we haven't seen the table yet. It goes down every year, but I was told by somebody who has seen it, that it's somewhat a little under 200 million right now. If you wanted to leave right now, you could write a check for under 200 million and get out. It is under 100 million if you want to leave right now you can write a check for 200 million for under 200 million and get out it is under a hundred million if you want to get out ahead of the 2030 football season what's 15 times 6 90 hmm yes it are you saying that you think Wake Forest the Syracuse are paying Florida State and Clemson to save their pennies to leave? Yes, that's exactly what's happening. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, this is a bad at math podcast and even I figured that equation out of my own didn't I? Yeah

the other part of that date is That's when the Big Ten contract ends the Big Ten TV deal ends The Big Ten will be starting a new deal. And I remember when the Big Ten stole USC and UCLA from the Pac-12, it was with an eye on that next TV deal. The Oregon Washington thing was different. They took them for pennies on the dollar because the Pac-12 was imploding. But if you were going to shop your stuff around with a potentially different lineup. If you were the big 10, you could start shopping it around say, 2028 or so. Yeah, with some new properties, which then leads us down the road to what people don't want the most, which is super leagues.

Well, people here is a is an interesting one because yeah yeah people here what the people the people here are you know it's funny rivers wearing our producers wearing a wake for a shirt today funny enough I don't know I did people don't let's go don't yeah he's he lives. I do. You live, bro. I do. I do. Oh, river was a is a wiry slot receiver from Rogersville, Tennessee, wiry slot receiver. So he looks good. But yes, if you're a Wake Forest fan, if you're a Duke fan, if you're a

Syracuse fan, if you're a Boston College fan, this is very terrible news. If you're a Florida State fan or Clemson fan, this is great news.. If you're a Florida State fan or Clemson fan, this is great news. Like that's the thing. Everybody with a chance to get into the club. Feels awesome about it. Everybody who knows they're not going to get into the club. Looks at this like it's, it's, it's a terrible thing. And in the macro, it is a bad thing because it makes college football less diverse and interesting. Yes. So like last night we were texting about this. I was like, okay, well today,

tomorrow is going to be a depressing show, right? Like, and there's no, there's no way around it. But like at the same time, it just kind of is what it is. And it felt like an inevitability anyway, because if it wasn't in 2030, then it would have been 2036, right? Yes. because if it wasn't in 2030, then it would have been 2036, right? Yes. Like the day was coming. So the day seems sooner now, but it will be interesting too to see like

when 2028 rolls around and you start getting closer to the exit date that the ACC has set or where it becomes manageable to leave, how it's going to manifest and whether or not the, when's the SEC contract up? 2034. And so the thing is like the, the SEC, I don't think the SEC needs to do anything.

Like the SEC with 16 teams actually has a better television football product than the, than the big 10 with 18 right now. The reason the big 10 might want to consider this is if you sprinkled Clemson in Florida state or Clemson in Miami or, uh, through the, the Big 10 schedule, you get a better television product. Well, I have something better to sell.

Well, we have to just call it what it is, right? The Big 10 though, one of the two premier conferences in the sport also is. Kind of bogged down by a lot of teams that don't. That don't drive television numbers, right? Like you have North and you have Purdue. I don't want to keep going. I don't want to be mean, but like you get it where the S he doesn't have as many as that like even when they're down like even when

LSU stinks everybody wants to watch that. Like even when they're down, like even when LSU stinks, everybody wants to watch LSU play. Even when, when I mean, Auburn, Tennessee. Yeah, if you went pound for pound SEC for his big 10, you would run out of seller dwellers faster in the SEC. In terms of, it's not like talking about third and pad. Yeah, in terms of driving ratings,

I guess we're talking about the ones that don't as much in the SEC or or maybe Vanderbilt and Mississippi State. Maybe Arkansas. But I feel like all of these do really well more about football than the bottom half. Yeah, exactly exactly exactly. Exactly and so he's going to be really good this year, right?

Like we anticipate Illinois being really good. Yes, Illinois does not. Care about football as much as Arkansas does. Right, exactly exactly. And so if you're the Big 10, you kind of need some more places that care about football like that. And now what makes this part interesting

is if you are the big 10 and you're potentially looking at adding these schools, what does the SEC do? Because the SEC is not going to want to do anything with no TV deal coming up because usually when you do something in the middle of a TV deal, you're asking people to take less money. You don't really want to do that. But if you're the SEC, do you want the Big Ten encroaching on your footprint? And I think that's a question that Greg Sankey and the SEC presidents are going to have to answer. Well, because you're just going to take all of them, are they?

They're not just going to take Miami, North Carolina, Clemson and Florida State when the day comes, right? They can't take all of them. Can they? Why not? I mean, 18 team league is very unwieldy and you saw how stupid that turns out. What's the difference for 22? Like, yeah, 22. Well, I'm just saying, like, if the Superleagues happen, I can't imagine it's going to be 2518. Right? Like they're going to be no, I but the thing is, it's not this is not the NFL like that. There's not one overarching person directing this. So the idea of it making sense. I'm trying to make it make sense. Is that maybe exactly it may not. Well, let me ask you this because you're you know more about this stuff than I do, and I love picking your brain on it. But when this stuff happens and there are going to be major college football properties for the taking in the next five years. What does this mean for Northwestern? What does this mean for Purdue? Like, are they so locked in or can they or are Superleague is going to be guaranteed to include them? They are locked in as long as it's built around the existing leagues. As long as the Big Ten and the SEC are the backbone of it,

they're fine because they're grandfathered in, it'd be really hard to kick them out. But you need to find a time five. Like how hard the process is to kick a team out. Yeah, very hard, extremely hard. And I'm trying to think, the only time I can ever remember somebody getting kicked out is Temple getting kicked out of the Big East. Yeah. It's not something that happens very often. So what I think, the only reason,

the only time they should worry is if Ohio State and Alabama are like we're leaving the big ten in the SEC to form our own thing Right because they don't necessarily see yeah Well, yeah, that would be interesting. It's like one day Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan in Florida and all the big you know, whatever for like, you know what? We're just gonna go have a 30 30 team conference and it's gonna be our own thing. Like I wonder if that day could come.

At this point, I'm numb to it. Like it's all possible. Everything's on the table. And I do think the next round will tell us more about that. I think, I would think in the next round you get to whatever that is. Because you've already got the Big Ten and the SEC working together. So I just, I don't think they're ready to go that far yet. But then we've just got to see what happens

because, so you mentioned the revenue sharing part of it. That's one thing I think is really interesting is, like essentially the Wake Forest and Syracuse and the Boston College of the World are paying Florida State and Clemson to save up to leave. Like in 2030, they can write a check for 89 million bucks or whatever the number is and they're out. And-

And that's surplus money that they're gonna be getting in the meantime. Right, right, right. So, and then they're gonna get more if they go to the big 10 of the SEC. And so it's actually a pretty painless transition for them relatively speaking. And I wonder if that actually happened earlier than 2030.

Maybe they'll be like, you know what, we made a bunch of extra money that we're gonna make more now, let's just get out of it now in 2028. Like I don't know if we're able to. I think you'd get the news that's gonna happen in 2030 in 2028. Yeah.

Very similar to how the USC UCLA news leaked. But I wonder if in the 2026, in 2026 we're gonna get news that it's 2028. I guess it depends on how, how drastic the table is in terms of the bio. Right. And a lot of it depends on the TV deal, where it may be that the, the big tens network partners

don't want to talk about anything else before 2030. Right. And so here, here's the thing that I would watch because there's also a possibility, and here's where the ACC did do a good job here, because I don't wanna bash the ACC too much on this because they had a bad hand in this lawsuit. They were playing from a bad hand.

And so their lawyers were at a very big disadvantage to Florida State and Clemson's because the ACC's worst case scenario was so much worse than Florida State and Clemson's worst case scenario was so much worse. Than Florida State and Clemson's worst case scenario. So they didn't have a lot of choices here, but what they did is they created a situation where the ACC is going to stay together for a little bit longer. And if it does, what if the market for TV rights is flat? Yeah, going into 2030 and the Big Ten's like,

we're not going to get any more money, so we're not adding anybody. Well, the problem here too is that the ACC can't even go on the offensive to try to bolster their teams like there's nobody know either like that. Nobody get. Yeah, like if there was like a if the Pac 12 still existed in this scenario, like you'd be like, well, what if they go out, you know, what if they go at Oregon and USC and try to, you know, do that and maybe make it so that their TV product

could compete with the Big 10s in 2030, but that's off the table. So, you know, the TV market could be flat by then, but at the same time, I still think that what they're going to be able to get in the other conferences is going to vastly outweigh what the ACC commands and that in that open market. I think you're right. And the other thing is I just keep telling people, see how the NFL games on Netflix perform, see how the Thursday night games on Amazon Prime for the NFL keep performing, see how when the NBA goes to Amazon Prime next year, see how that performs. If those entities are happy with their purchases of live sports, they're going

to go after the Big 10 in the SEC the next time around. Well, here's the thing. And I know that this is just like tin hat towards it tin foil Tuesday here. Oh yeah, Randy and you know there will become a time I bet in my lifetime. Hopefully I live a long time.

That we're going to get to be discussing why are we paying Northwestern, why are we paying Mississippi State, why are we paying Purdue, and the people that, especially in the streaming world, once we find that NFL games and WNBA games and all these things are performing well on streaming services, where they are going to get together and they're going to figure out a way to cut the trim to fat, because that's what's going to happen. I don't know when that's going to be. That could be 2055 for all I know, I don't know. But eventually people are gonna stop being amused

by paying teams who happen to be at the right place at the right time. Or the alternative to that is they invest, they use that money that they're getting, and they actually get better, because they provide a better alternative than a team in the ACC or a team in the Big 12. Right now the question is how good, like let's just play this game for a second. Okay. How good at football would Northwestern have to be for them to become

a valuable television asset? Like how good and for how long? They would have to be an above average team for how long? They would have to be an above average team. Most years for about 15 years, right? So we're probably talking about a time arc that doesn't add up to that, even if things go well. And it's like, I think there's another flip to the coin on this conversation, too, of like, well, the financial disadvantage that the rest of the ACC is going to be in as a result of the settlement for the next five years, because if Florida State's able to invest that money in their program, I don't know what they're going to do. They're going to put it into a high yield savings and wait for the for the for the buyout. And that's the thing because they were talking to private equity. I would stay far away from private equity if I were all of these guys.

This makes it where you may not have to get that cash infusion. You remember the Florida State lawyers actually estimated what it might cost to leave the ACC if you had to buy all of your TV rights from now on. And they estimated it like $540 million because there was $120 million exit fee. And then you had to, they were estimating buying the T rights. The ACC argued in court that there is no price for the TV rights because it's an irrevocable grant of rights and that they choose not to sell. So as long as they chose not to sell, it would not matter what was offered. It wasn't for sale.

Now it's for sale. Now we know the number. The numbers we're talking about are not the number to buy back your rights or the exit fee. They're both together. So that that's under you know, under 200 million number that I said, if you wanted to leave now, that's the whole number, the under 100 million in 2030. That's the whole number. So they're really getting out for pennies on the dollar.

You know, I always think about is just SMU. Yeah, I always think he's not taking any money from the ACC. It was like we're here. Let's win the league. They did everything that they could to be in a power conference and now they're going to be five years and they're going to be on the outs again. But that's that's how this works. Like I remember everyone Memphis got invited from Conference

USA to the Big East which was about to become the American like we made it. The Big East is a BCS conference. We did it and everyone's like's like, I don't know how to break this to you guys. I mean, it's the same thing with Cincinnati in the Big 12, right? And it already happened to them.

But I mean, I guess to a certain extent, it's still considered a power conference, right? But it's a better conference than the one they were in. And harder than the one they were in as they're finding out. Cincinnati was craving for years to be like in the Big Ten or to be in a conference that's equal to what Ohio State was in. Yeah, well, but they're not. And so, yeah, it's hard to do that.

Like the ones that have gotten like Missouri got the best golden ticket out of all these, I think, I guess Rutgers in Maryland. Rutgers in Maryland are the number two, one and two on that. Yeah. Cause they would still be in this situation, right? And then if they were in this situation, then they would be. And if this happened now, Rutgers in Maryland would not be the big tens choice, the big 10 shows Rutgers in Maryland, because it was a very

specific moment in history when the idea was to get more cable subscribers in your footprint so that you could charge them more for your cable network. That doesn't exist anymore. So I mean, it exists, there's still real money. There's still actual money in it, which is- To watch Rutgers football on TV too. I don't even know, because there are a lot of people,

it always felt weird to me. And I guess like- No, there's not. People are making a package, so it was like, it's a lot of people, like, that num, it always felt weird to me. And I guess like people like to make a package. So it was like, it's kind of hard, it's like thinking about cassette tapes now, like it's kind of hard to put yourself back in that mode. But yeah, no, they wouldn't be their choice at all because there was this notion that they were gonna capture

the New York City market. And it's like, I don't think the New York City market gets you. Well, it wasn't to capture the New York City market, it was, they were gonna tack, so when you're out of market and you're a conference cable channel, like the big 10 network or the SEC network, when you don't have a team in the footprint, you get like 30 cents a month.

When you do, you get like a dollar 20 a month. Yeah. Right. That's all that was. It was an extra 90 cents a month from like millions of people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, I don't know if we want to play this game. We can do it later in the week. We have a whole off season. Andy put on your, your miss Cleo, get out the crystal ball here for a second. What does college football look like to you in 2033?

It's a good question and and let me I'm going to I'm going to pose another question to you because we've got this new college football playoff deal that starts in 2026 and it's a six year like these guys got to get their their years together on the TV because. Let's say you do this college football playoff deal where you have the four automatic spots for the the Big Ten and the SEC two for the ACC two for the Big Ten. What if the ACC gets pillaged by the Big Ten and the SEC in 2030? Now you've got two more years. What have we been screaming about for the last month?

Yeah. We're messing with the playoff before we know what the sport looks like. Right. Right. You got two more years of that needle. Well now look, hey if you're Wake Forest and Syracuse you're like yes we're going to the playoff baby. That's years. Does this impact and I don't know if this is like two I'm like you know what man I had a hell of a morning. I was going to go to a workout at 6am and I woke up to tornado siren so I didn't go. I don't want to leave my family at home and then I drove my daughter to school and the street sign fell over something and the whole road was closed and I had to drive over the median to get here on time. So I'm just feeling a little wacky. I don't even know. I don't even remember where I was going. Oh yeah, what is this news mean for the potential of the seating being fixed this year in the playoff? Like the ACC might just walk in with a pep

and they're step on their next meeting, right? They're like, we're a pending doom. Like why would we do anything to help anyone out? We're screwed anyway. Yeah, you know how I feel about that because you talked me into it. Like there is, if I am the ACC, the yeah, if I'm the ACC, the big 12, the Mountain West Conference USA Sunbelt, Mac,

I just tell the SEC, the big 10 to pound sand, like you're going to ram this down our throats in 2026. We are not doing a thing. We're not lifting a finger to help you right now. I think a way that Jim Phillips could wheel and deal and just be like, Hey, we'll fix the seating this year if you just leave Florida State alone in five years. Probably not, right? Because it's not, it's not. No, because then he gets sued. Like if it came out that that happened, he gets the ACC would get sued by Florida State

again. So. Yeah, I don't know. Uh, but either way, like they would deal with bad seating for another year. Uh, you know, that's too much of an invaluable property to put on the table. I'm just trying to theorize here. Like, does Jim Phillips show up to the next college football playoff meeting, even if it's a zoom, like wearing cutoffs like sleeves

and like with a mohawk, like I would. The guy like I just don't know what the guy's supposed to do. I think Jim Phillips has done the best job he could with the situation he was dealt. He was already in a bad spot. The TV contract was long done. Basically what they told him when he got the job is figure out a way to make Notre Dame a full member. Like figure out a way to convince them, which you're not going to. And you know, do your best to keep Flores, Aitken, Clemson. And it's not happening. Like he's done the best he can but the hand he was dealt was pretty bad, but it's also I

Just don't even know what it would be like for him to go to work every day knowing what's down the line here Like if you knew I think every other Friday would be wonderful Ari Yeah, let me let me commandeer a suit Let me be in command of a sinking ship for four or five years with a seven figure salary. I can do that. Yeah. I just mean like as an employee, I just feel like if we knew that every single talented person that works at on three was going to work on arrival website in 2028 wouldn't come

into work now suck. Not on three, but we've, we've been there. We've lived that at various employers. so we know what that's like. Well, this is going to sound terrible. Uh, and it doesn't mean this way because the properties who were left at our last spot are still very good properties. But like, are we Florida state and Clemson? We're in the big 10 now, baby.

Woo. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and stable and this is, this is down. If the athletics going to be there for a long time and they've got a lot of really talented people there. Yeah, I want to say like, they're screwed without us, but like we didn't have to live through the reality of people leaving as we left. That's all I was saying. Right. And the thing is, this has been headed this way for a long time. It's depressing. It's sad, because it does take away

a lot of what makes college football interesting because you asked me asked me the question put the Miss Cleo hat on what will college football look like in 2023 or 2033? The SEC and Big Ten will control it even more than they do now. They will be the the two power leagues, but even more so than they are now. leagues, but even more so than they are now. And I suspect that what's left of the ACC and the big 12 will probably end up being one thing. That was my guess. Yeah, and then what, but then how does that like all manifest in like the playoff and all that?

Well, here's how you solve for that if you're doing the auto bids. And again, God knows how many formats they're gonna go through between now and then. But you could just bump up the bids for the SEC and the Big 10 if you have the four bids between. And you're not gonna be invited eventually. This is cute, but they're not even gonna be in the tournament.

But I don't think 2033 is when they're out. Yeah, so what year do you think that is? 2038? 2040? That I don't know. And I don't want to, I don't really want to predict the demise because I want to think about it. I don't want to think about it either. I don't want those schools to be left on the side of the road. I like them to be part of the fabric of the sport. I don't want them to have to form their own division or subdivision or whatever it is. I would not like that to happen, though I understand and accept that that seems like where it's going. Yeah. It's like we are an inclusive show for everybody and we want Northwestern fans and Missouri fans and everybody else to listen and to be engaged. And like part of the thing that is so interesting to me is that like the expansion of the playoff was supposed to be this all inclusive resort for everybody to come and eat and enjoy and be a part of it. And it's like, wow, we expanded the playoff to be more inclusive to the teams that aren't typically invited to this thing. And we got to see some new blood in there this year. Like SMU being in the party was fun, right?

Like we get that. But simultaneously, the conference expansions and realignment that were happening at the same time were shifting the fabric of the sport where this felt inevitable because like here's the thing like my first thought too of like. And maybe it won't happen at all, but yesterday like my first thought when I saw the Florida State was getting more

money and Clemson was getting more money was well, how much leverage now does Ohio State have? How much does Michigan have? How much did the teams in the SEC that command most of the I mean? I don't know, maybe it's more, more dire on the big 10 words, more lots of other there's, there's more, there's nuance to it because the big 10 and the sec understand that every league that has tried uneven revenue sharing has been torn apart by the unreal uneven revenue sharing.

Right. So there's a reason they don't do it that way. But if, if Ohio state, Michigan, Penn State, Oregon, and whoever, I don't know, maybe I'm not more like, you know what? We deserve more money than Rutgers, Maryland, Minnesota, Northwestern, and someone else. What's the doubt? Like, how does it get torn apart then?

What's the downside of it? Yeah, well the downside of it is maybe they don't make more money. Now I think they do if they merge with the top of the SEC, but here's the thing. The Dallas Cowboys are worth more than every other NFL franchise, but they share money with the other NFL franchises because they figured out that they all make more if they share the way they share. There's just a difference between being good at football and being valuable in football, right? Correct. Very different things. That's been the hardest thing for people to understand in all of this realignment and one of the most frustrating parts for everybody in this in this realignment.

Because like Indiana had a great year last year, right? It was fun to talk about. It was a great story. They aren't a more more valuable television property right now. Sailor Joe says, I want to see Andy and Ari's perfect realignment and playoff concept. I want to maybe use it for my college football 26 game dynasty. You're mine. Are you you were ready with it already? I was gonna say I was gonna make this a show next week. But yeah, go ahead. Act 12 exists put through that in the video game. Yeah, yeah, so you play off with five power conferences

that were all equally pretty good put Oklahoma and Texas back in the Big 12. So if you rank the four the four highest conference champions, you're probably going to arrive at the way it was intended to because between Big 12 with Oklahoma and Texas and Pac 12 with Oregon and Washington USC in UCLA and the Big 10 as they were previously situated like you would get five, four really, really good conference champions every year.

Like the 12 team playoff existed and was designed with five conferences in mind, right? Yeah. That's why there were four in mind. We never got even to see it in that. If you take the format and put it back in 2014, 2015, when those conferences look like that and you do the rankings and the seating looks great. Looks great. Yeah. So

like that's the thing like you know I always get upset. I just like when the Pac 12 died college football was forever altered and I don't even know if we gave it enough credence in the moment. We were sad and it was terrible and And like Dan Rubenstein at the solid verbal called it the death of West Coast football because it was a vibe. But like, I feel like it was the depth of like normalcy. It was the paradigm shift into whatever was next. That was the last domino that fell that now we have to talk

about like how good should Wake Forest feel today. Well, and we hadn't seen a conference just dissolve. We because the big 12 almost did twice, but it didn't. And so we hadn't seen a conference just cease to exist like that. And because I think the Big East thing was different because the Big East became the American, thing was different because the Big East became the American, the Catholic schools that played all the basketball split off into their own. But that wasn't the same thing as like one of the major football conferences falling apart. That was the first time it had actually happened. It had been a threat to happen multiple times. That was the first person it happened. So now we just deal with with whatever happens next and it's it's going to there are more moves to come. Yesterday and what will happen today when the board members get together and rubber stamp this thing

that's telling us it's gonna come. Really irritates me is that like even if you're a big ten in an SEC fan Like if you like were to pull America were like, would you like the Pac-12 to exist again? We're like everybody say yeah, is there anybody that's like I'm glad the pack. Well, let me let me let me change this for you though because What if I said the best teams in the Big Ten and the best teams in the SEC are a league and then you take the best of the ACC and the best of the Big 12 and they get in there too and it's 40 teams and they only play each other and there's no crap games. Which would you rather watch? That five conference, the five power conference when you're talking about or what I just mentioned the five conference ones that I talking about I don't think most people would want to watch that over what I just said I think in reality yeah you're asking me if we're watching the other thing I would take the five because we like the quirky nature of the sport and the right comes from all those other teams that were trying that that the second and I'm with you too. I'm just telling you, I

think from a consumer behavior standpoint, more people would disagree with us. I think that's interesting about college football is that there's more casual fans who want to watch Alabama LSU than there are diehards who listen to the show every day and like we are. Um, and they're the ones who actually command the market while shifting into the- Fox and ESPN are not really targeting you guys who listen to this show.

No, they're targeting- They know they've got you. They're not targeting people who read on three. They're not targeting- They know they've got you already. Like they don't have to do anything. You're going to watch college football no matter what. They want people to see two big flashy helmets on the promos

on Thursday of Checkout Saturday Night's Game. And they want people to watch that. And that's the thing that's the most difficult. Because if you are a person who thinks the Pop Tarts Bowl is funny and watched the Pop Tarts Bowl and was into it, you are already not a target for this. You you're out, like you, they got you, you're, you're lying hook line and sinker. But the thing that I have always said on the show, and I've said it to you a million times is making this more like the NFL, while you butted and say it's the most successful television property

in sports, is that you're sterilizing college football. And like, I want to see the rabbit run onto the field in the middle of the game. I want to see a team that- Letting Kiffin using the squirrel to mess with the clock. I want to see that half of a stadium is empty because it's under renovation and then they can't storm the field because the team beat a team that they weren't supposed to.

Like, I want all that stuff. stuff and like if the expense to that is sometimes you get 66 to 10 games that's fine but NIU Notre Dame was one of the highest points of the season and like that's not going to exist anymore. And it's like what like also too like if you make super teams and everybody in those leagues are really good and it's just the NFL then like the entire concept of the upset, which is the coolest thing of sports goes away. Now I'm not saying there won't be upsets the way that it would be if the Browns beat the Chiefs. But it's not the same. It would never be the same.

It would never be the same as Appalachian State Michigan. That's something totally different. Yes, I agree. And how many times do you see Appalachian State field goal block highlights on a given year all the time, right? Like it's one of the best moments the sport has had in 20 years. So Ramsey's Peppers, I'm assuming North Carolina fan here. I've seen Florida State and Clemson mention a lot since they were included in the lawsuits. Do you think this guarantees a North Carolina exit too? If so, does that change where Florida State and Clemson end up in the power too? North Carolina was absolutely cheating off their papers. We already know that we've seen the emails back and forth. Uh, Brendan Marks at the athletic obtained those. And then we've seen a couple of other places where they've obtained emails

from some of the trustees at North Carolina. They had a project, they had, it had a code name. So absolutely it affects them a lot. And North Carolina is interesting because that is a school that is coveted by both the big 10 and the sec. So yeah, I do think North Carolina has a very important role to play in all this. Yeah. I mean, who are the teams?

In the ACC right now that you just coveted or not coveted? I mean, go down the list right now. Keep the graphic up. Wake for it. Is Virginia Tech coveted? I think they should be. It's interesting because the SEC folks have long said they would like Virginia. But I think Virginia Tech actually makes more sense culturally and like we're looking at pictures of Lane Stadium like that's that's

an SEC environment right there. Right. That feels like an SEC school to me. Yeah. Kind of reminds me of South Carolina when I look at that stadium. I don't know why. Very similar. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of similarly build the wings at Williams Price a little bit different, but but yeah, that, and NC State culturally feels like an SEC school too. Hey, let's go ahead and do a list, though. I'm gonna say the school name and you, and we'll both say whether we think they're confident or not.

Yeah. Wait for us. No. Virginia Tech, maybe? Not really. Not really? They should be, but they're not. Virginia, no?

SMU? Maybe, SMU, not. Why is Virginia more native than Virginia Tech to you? I don't understand that. I'm just telling you from years of talking to people who make decisions in the SEC, they covet Virginia. Is there a basketball that player or something? Nope. It's this is a flagship university thing. It's a it's a getting the footprint thing it's a academic prestige thing and again I don't know if that matters as much because like one of the reasons the Big Ten covet North Carolina is

The the Big Ten schools feel like North Carolina's a peer institution like the academic snobbery piece of it, but The Big Ten's run by a TV executive. Now I don't think they're making decisions based on that as much anymore. Yeah, OK, let's keep going. Syracuse no Stanford no no no North Carolina Estate no yes yes NCC NC State should be as a football property because like if you ever seen an NC State football game,

like they get after it. That's one of the stadiums I've never been to that I I am a very. Uh? Have you ever seen an NC State football game? Like they get after it. That's one of the stadiums I've never been to that I am a very, very regretful of. I want to get there, especially for a big game. Carter family gets going when they're good. I went over Pitt and said, no, really quickly.

Do you think Pitt is secondary or second thought? Well, Pitt from a big 10 standpoint, like Pitt's a really good school. So again, if that academic snobbery piece still counts for something, that makes Pitt more valuable. Yeah, well here's the thing that would be interesting too, and I don't know if this is another show or if this is right now,

but like where does the Big 12 stack on the Pantheon of coveted? Like are all these teams that we're going over right now more coveted than the Big 12 teams? Or are there Big 12 properties? like are all these teams that were going over right now more coveted than big 12 teams or their big 12 they're the same they're kind of the same they're all on the same bucket yeah like I don't know like Louisville Louisville is interesting to me because Louisville cares a lot about football tries hard to win at football has had some really good football seasons they're getting good at basketball again they work

traditionally good at basketball they had They work traditionally good at basketball. They had some down years, but that one feels like it could be a valuable process because if you gave them a bunch of money, they use it to win to try to win. But I don't know that they would be coveted like some of these other ones, but I think Georgia Tech might like if Georgia Tech keeps winning at football. Georgia Tech's an interesting one. Yeah. Uh, Miami is obviously a yes, right? Okay. Florida state, especially if they keep playing well in football again, like they're, they're, they're good brand Clemson and Florida state, obviously good

brands and then BC are all no, no, what Duke's interesting with the basketball piece of it, but I still think with no coach K, I don't think it's the same thing. Yeah. You don't even need to talk about Duke basketball though. Oh, let's talk about Duke. Let's do that. Before we do that. Let's talk about our friends at Panini, Paniniamerica.net to start your collection. Makers are the finest, most collectible sports cards on the planet.

I have a pack here. I saw somebody open up there, Andy, that pack that you have on Instagram yesterday, and they pulled a Caitlin Clark color wheel out of it. So, feel free. Woo! So this is a Panini Prism draft picks basketball edition. And we're gonna talk about a really interesting

basketball story that popped into my head as I was watching a game last night. So, but first we're ripping this pack because that those Caitlin Clark nukes are out there. They are by God. I want one. She sells, man. She sells big. All right.

I saw him river. Let's let's Alexander saw our rookie. Adam Bona. Let's let's Alexander saw our I'm going to go to prison. prison break. Steph Curry in his Davidson uniform. We got Rob Dillingham Planet, Kentucky. Oh my don't oh my don't oh my me. You scare me

because oh my is Andy thinks it's cool or oh my you're holding a nuke and I don't know which one it is. This is this is probably Andy thinks it's cool or oh my, you're holding a nuke and I don't know which one it is. This is probably Andy thinks is cool, but there are silver numbers on the back of this card, Ari. So, Harold Miner, Baby Jordan autographed USC card, number 149. That's really cool.

That actually might mean- It may not mean anything to some of you young folks, but Harold Miner was an explosive dunker. They called him baby Jordan when he was going to USC. This is a piece of my childhood right here. What color is that Andy? It's it's blue. And what's it numbered to 149. Okay, let me comp it for you real quick. Oh, yeah, that's like a $40 card. Sweet. I want to hold on to that. Oh yeah. That's like a $40 card. Sweet. I want to hold on

to that. Oh yeah. Might want to hold on to that one. I will hold on to that one because you know, Harold Miner is his money is NBA career. My Harold Miner is like 55 years old right now. So yeah. Yeah. The the the older guys in the college

uniforms. Things are really cool. Uh I just it it makes me so happy. Like as soon as I started like baby Jordan, yes. When you went, Oh, I was like, I was like, Oh God, did he hit? Cause like I'm just waiting for Caitlin. Like, what are you going to do? Like when you hit a Caitlin Clark card, that's worth 1200 bucks, like are you going to hold it over your head and torture you with it? You're already doing that with the Pooka Nakua gold disco. Like what are you doing with my card?

Like, why is it not in my possession? It should at least be in my possession. Make an offer, Ari. Make an offer. What can I do outside of money to get that from you? Be my butler for a month? I mean, that would be more expensive than the card, probably, you know.

And I wouldn't be that aggressive. I think that's the plot of the pilot to the show about nothing within the show about nothing on Seinfeld. All right, so, visit Paniniamerica.net. Oh, wait, wait. That's a Bucky Irving booklet I hit in a break out of Spectra, Spectra's Fire, that's one to five.

And like it opens up and you can, I had a Lad McConkey with a Nike Swoosh, but this one just came in yesterday and I'm into that. The booklets are very cool. I like those. People are into Bucky. They think he's gonna be a really good running back for a long time.

So I don't know what to do with that. Do I hold that? Do I sell that? We'll see. He's a little small. Running backs are tough, man. Yeah. But I do think as long as Baker's in Tampa,

Bucky's gonna have a pretty productive time of it. So he's really good receiver. Yeah. Paniniamerica.net to collect your favorite college NFL NBA stars. All right, let us talk about a little college basketball and the NBA because Ari, I was watching the end of the Duke Wake Forest game last night and there was not much going on because it was a blow out.

93-60 was the final, but that's only because the walk-ons were playing for the last two and a half minutes. Cooper Flagg, this was potentially his last game at Cameron indoor stadium. This was Duke's last home regular season game this year. So at the end of the game, John Shire takes his starters out and the camera crazy start chanting one more year, one more year. And Cooper flag makes the run it back signal. And like he laughs, they show his parents in the stands laughing all the Cameron crazies like they laugh as they're cheering because nobody thinks Cooper flag is going to come back to Duke

Here's my question Should he at least dangle it out there to make sure he doesn't end up a Washington Wizard I Don't know man what I Feel like in the NFL. It's far more drastic than in the man, what? I feel like in the NFL it's far more drastic than in the NBA, right? Like if you're a really, really good like John Moran wasn't struggling at Memphis for until he

got in trouble but like. A transcended player. Memphis is a good franchise though. They try to win like the Wizards are not trying to win and haven't tried to win in decades. I don't feel like you have to try that hard to win when you're really good at

basketball. Like if you get the right guy, right? Like the Cavaliers won the finals cause LeBron. I know that's not the same thing. But the Cavaliers are the best team in the league right now. Like they're managed fairly well. I feel like if I were a quarterback being drafted and the Browns wanted to draft me, that would be more of a dire situation than any NBA player. I think the Wizards might be the, the NBA version of the Browns is what I'm saying. Like I might try to leverage this thing.

And this is, I feel like this is, this is not a Cooper flag question. This is more of a presumptive number one draft pick in the NIL or a question, but Cooper flags, the first one who's had this level of leverage. Cause the dates are really interesting on this I I did not know this until I got this idea in my head last night and started looking up the dates on When you have to say you're in or out of the draft and when the lottery is and all that so It's the direct. I just look up contract for the number one overall pick in the NBA draft. It's about 14 million a year. 57.4 million in four years.

Yeah, yep. It's a good deal. I'm getting to that. I'm getting to that and it's probably going to puncture my little balloon here, but I'll tell you. It's like, what balloon are you cooking up over there? I can't wait to... Well, here's the thing. But would you rather play, have to play for the Wizards for at least four years and possibly more, or would you rather go to a franchise? Because there are franchises in the lottery that are just sort of down on their luck this year, or they've cleared the decks trying to get a player like CooperFlag.

Like, if the Sixers win the lottery, or if the Jazz win the lottery, that's a different story. Like, okay, those guys are gonna try. But I don't wanna be a Wizard, and I don't wanna be a Hornet. Like you're okay. Those guys are gonna try, but I don't wanna be a wizard and I don't wanna be a Hornet. Like I don't. So if I'm Cooper flag, although the Hornets were the bad ass team.

If you had a Charlotte Hornet starter jacket when I was a kid, you learn. Well, yeah, but that's, those are the Pelicans now. That franchise is the Pelicans now. So it's still Hornets, man. Well, I was a magic fan. I hated the Hornets. The Alonzo morning Larry Johnson Muggsy Bogues was awesome. Oh man, it's like our child. So but. As a thing, if I'm Cooper flag, I don't want to be a wizard or

Hornet and those are the two teams most likely to win the lottery. So. Here's the deal. If you declare for the draft, you have until about 12 days before the draft to pull out. So you can pull out of the draft by June 15th. I'm sure Duke would keep a scholarship open for him or he could come as a walk on. So June 15th is your deadline to pull out of the draft. May 12th is the date of the lottery. So what you could do if you're Cooper flag is you have team flag saying look, if it's one of these teams that wins the lottery, great,

awesome, I'm in the draft, cool, don't worry about it. But if it's the Wizards or the or the Hornets, you'd better trade the pick or I am get I am pulling my name out of the draft and going back to Duke. And like we've seen this in football, we saw John Elway do this where he had been drafted into the major leagues so he could go play pro baseball and that's how he avoided playing for the Colts. Like he forced the move to get himself to the Broncos. We saw the Manning family do this with Eli because he didn't want to play for the Chargers. And so he got himself. This year. Wasn't there's like some thought that they were going to do

this with Chador Sanders this year, like a few months ago. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I don't know that Chador Sanders has the leverage because should or Sanders isn't the obvious presumptive number one pick. I mean, we're right now we're talking about Abdul Carter. But in this case, Cooper flag is the obvious presumptive number one pick. He's got a New Balance shoe deal already. Now, if I'm New Balance, I don't really want him saying it Duke because that's him wearing Nikes for

another year. He can wear New Balance. What's gets the NBA? But he's still going to get year. He can wear New Balance. What's gets the NBA? But he's still gonna get paid. He's still gonna get paid by Duke's collective. He's still gonna get paid in a lot of ways Is he gonna get paid 14 million dollars? Probably not. Is he gonna get close to it? maybe But here's here's where the money falls apart And here's where my argument I think falls apart. It's not the $14 million a year that you get on your rookie deal.

It's whatever the last year of your NBA max deal would be that you're losing because you're spending another year in college. And I was looking at the numbers on these things. And so the NBA's got a new TV contract that's about to hit. So their max deals are about to go up. But, so like right now, if you signed a max deal

with your team, like a super max deal, that last year, that max deal is about 50 million bucks a year. So that's the thing. If you're willing to say, money matters so little to me that I am willing to part with the potential $50 million that I would make on the back end of my NBA career. If I started one year earlier, then you can stay in school and leverage this thing. It really depends on how much it matters to you. matters to you. I just don't think it can happen. I I think you could do it if you if you if you hate any idea of playing for that franchise enough. You might do it. Do you do you? Alright, coach Kate play the coach K video. Let me play the

coach K clip. There's a lot of factors in there but But in Cooper's case, one, he should do whatever he wants. My thing was just be smart. Be smart for you. You only get to do this once. And you're only going to get to do it for a certain amount of time. And really, you're talking about generational wealth a really good generational if you do it the right way yeah i love so that's mike shachowski from from beyond basketball on series xm and i love mike shachowski and really good generational wealth said in a way that only

someone who has generational wealth could say. The funniest thing is like, yeah, there's generational wealth and then really good generational wealth. What are the two benchmarks money wise? What's generational wealth and what is really good generational wealth? Generational wealth is 10 million dollars.

You play for an NBA team or you own an NBA team? Yeah. Does Coach K have really good generational wealth? I think he's getting there. Those American Express ads paid pretty well. Yeah, I mean, I I don't keep up with this enough, but like, how does NIL D? How do NIL deals stack up for the best basketball players as it pertains to the comparison with

football? Is it more because it's more impactful? Better. Yeah, because they're more impactful to their teams. Those basketball players actually rate for ad campaign, national ad campaigns. If you talk to advertising people, they'll tell you that the lack of a helmet helps. Yeah, they do. It does. Cause like, I don't think anybody knows what football players know what football players look like that aren't like Jamar chase. Um, if he walked through a grocery store right now in like a whole foods, that's a mile and a half from my house. Do you think people would know who he is? Cooper? I think some people would, I don't think he would be instantly recognizable. I don't, I don't even know what he looks like.

It's actually a great question. So, CooperFlag, so our NIL valuation for CooperFlag is 4.8 million. So you're still only talking about a third of what you'd make in the NBA next year. So really it would have to be a decision of, I want to play for a really good competitive franchise and I will essentially take less money this year to play at Duke to not play for this crappy franchise That's the only reason you do it, but I still think because there is this level of money available it's not the worst gamble in the world if that's the case or you just threaten it and They trade the pick to somebody that you'd play for I just like this is the first time hearing of motion

that like playing for the Wizards would be the worst thing in the world. I sure as hell wouldn't play for the Wizards. Like if if I could play for the Wizards or the Sixers, I would take the Sixers all day. Yeah. The Raptors have recently won an NBA title. The Bulls I don't know about like the Bulls are interesting because it feels like their ownership is is cool with going 44 and 40 every year or 44.

You know, 42 and 40 every year. Make the play in game and that's it. The Spurs are interesting because Wimby's not playing the rest of the year. Like it's just Spurs guy that I want to pick if I'm Cooper flag. I'm like, yep, let's go. Andy, how often does like a good team win the lottery? Not that often.

Like when I was when I was young, the magic had the worst chance of winning the lottery the year after they got Shaq and they're winning and they picked Chris Weber but traded him to the Warriors and got Penny Hardaway. So it worked out pretty good. That doesn't happen that often. Like the Spurs, the Spurs went into full rebuild mode. They got the number one pick.

Like you, you weren't worried about Victor Wimminyama going to the Spurs. You know, you knew they would put good pieces around him and they have. They went out and got De'Aaron Fox. Like they've, they've tried to do that. So Steve in San Antonio says Andy, the garbage franchise could get the number one pick next year too that's true and you you roll the dice do it again you could actually do it two more times if you wanted to but no I'm telling you right now just because you can go back like you can stay in the draft after the lottery,

after you already know, and you can still have, you still have a month essentially to threaten them, you make them trade the pick. And then you're like, okay, cool, I'm staying in the draft. Yeah. I need to watch more, dude. I think you should use. You should use it. We're not necessarily to the point where.

The presumptive number one picks gonna use it. Yeah, there's a chance you get there. Yeah, and I wonder if we'll ever get there in football too. With how much NIL monies out there. Yeah, I think it has to be a quarterback who is so obviously. The best player in the draft like this draft and you can't you risk injury risk. I don't know people just want to get to the league man. I also feel like football has a higher incidence of career-ending injury than basketball.

Yeah. So football, I think you you lean toward going pro as quickly as possible every time. Yeah. Yeah. But basketball, I don't know if you need to. Again, we'll see. But also, if I'm New Balance and I'm paying Cooper flag, I want Cooper flag and New Balances and the faster it goes, the faster that happens. Right. Austin in the chat. Let's close out with this question, Ari. This is a good question.

Hey guys, random question. Notre Dame is scheduling a lot of SEC teams lately. Any chance Notre Dame could become an SEC member one day? So I think Notre Dame, as things stand now, is going to do everything in its power to never be in a conference in football. That's important to them. It matters. Like their donors don't want to be in a conference.

They love the independence. They love the way the schedule works. So I can't see that. But like Antoine automatically goes, Notre Dame fits the Big 10 way more than the SEC. Yeah, but I actually don't think it's that different, like joining one or the other. If you had, like if they were forced into a conference,

I don't think it would be a slam dunk that they would join the Big 10. Yeah, and also too, like cultural geography, geography doesn't matter anymore. It's never, it's a matter a lot. Now it doesn't at all. Yeah. Now I could, I could see them if the STC made them a, you know, I don't know if there'd be a sweetheart deal in the SEC, but I do think Notre Dame and the

SEC would be a lot of fun and you they could hopefully still keep the USC series. And here's their schedule right now. So they got the back end of the Texas A&M home at home. They're also playing at Arkansas this year. They go to Miami. That's part of the ACC scheduling agreement. And it's. It's a pretty good schedule. That Boise State home game for

Notre Dame is a who? That's gonna be fun. I didn't know that for Notre Dame State that Ash and Genties done. That's not one you'd want coming to your place. Pretty sexy schedule next year. Miami and A&M back to back to

open the year as a doozy. Mm hmm, and then going to Arkansas is not not easy and then you gotta come back and play Boise State. Boise State, NC State, USC, they've got a tough schedule, man. Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to see what Notre Dame looks like. As we've talked about, the fact that two guys who started in the national title game for Notre Dame on the offensive line went into the transfer portable because they might not have starting jobs next year suggests to me that Notre Dame's offensive line is going to be particularly nasty. So I am very bullish on Notre Dame. Yeah, me too. Now, as for the rest of it, Ari, I think, like you said in our text last night, it is depressing because we look at this ACC settlement and you see where it's going.

You see where it leads and it sucks. But I'm sure if you're a Florida State fan or a Clemson fan, you're happy today. Because you and your team may be getting what it wants. If you're a North Carolina fan, you're probably pretty happy today. If you're a Miami fan, you're probably pretty happy today. So we'll just have to, we will be here, no matter how they decide to organize it,

no matter how they decide to put themselves together, we'll be here to explain it. We still have to talk about the teams in eight years if it works out that way. We're not gonna forget about you. Exactly, exactly. We'll be talking about Notre Dame and the SEC. I don't think so, but one never knows.

We will talk to you tomorrow. The Lord only knows what's gonna happen between now and then.