Andy & Ari On3 - Honest Conversation with Butch Jones: What happened at Tennessee? Going to Travis Kelce's wedding?

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

As the college football season is right around the corner, Arkansas State head coach Butch Jones joined Andy & Ari to discuss his path to coaching the Red Wolves, what happened in his time at Tennessee, and if he will attend the Travis Kelce & Taylor Swift wedding. A great in depth conversation with Butch Jones detailing his career.   (0:00) On Today's Episode (0:52) Presenting Sponsor (2:45) Intro: Previewing Butch Jones (5:57) Butch Jones joins (11:04) Josh Dobbs' Wedding (13:10) Kelce-Swift wedding (16:49) Coaching Antonio Brown at Central Michigan (19:39) Hail Mary vs Georgia in 2016 (23:10) Discussing his tenure at Tennessee (28:01) Working for Nick Saban (32:35) Butch Jones' Rules for Life (33:48) Closing out with Butch (34:19) Recapping Butch Jones: Kelce wedding? (37:50) Tennessee with Butch Jones (45:16) Being critical of coaches (46:05) Producer River's Tweet from high school (49:09) River's response (53:09) Age within coaches (59:30) Recycling of fired coaches (1:02:26) Conclusion   After the interview with Butch Jones, Andy & Ari have a long discussion recapping their interview with the Arkansas State head coach. As Producer River was in high school during Butch Jones's tenure at Tennessee, Andy & Ari call on River to give his thoughts on the former Vols head coach. Did his opinion change of the old Vols coach? Watch here as the fellas dive into a loaded discussion on today's show.   Our show is also presented by BetMGM!   If you haven’t signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code CFB and you will get up to a $1500 First Bet Offer on your first wager with BetMGM! Here’s how it works:   1. Download the BetMGM app and sign-up using bonus code CFB. 2. Deposit at least $10 and place your first wager on any game. 3. You will receive up to $1500 in bonus bets if your bet loses! Just make sure you use bonus code CFB when you sign up!   Make this college football season one for the history books. Make it legendary.   See BetMGM.com for Terms. 21+ only. This promotional offer is not available in DC, Mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario, or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET (Available in the US) . 877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), 1-800-327-5050 (MA), 1-800-BETS-OFF (IA), 1-800-981-0023 (PR). First Bet Offer for new customers only (if applicable). Subject to eligibility requirements. Rewards are non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire in 7 days. In partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel   Watch our show on YouTube! https://youtu.be/GnsIoELOWts   Hosts: Andy Staples, Ari Wasserman Producer: River Bailey   Interested in partnering with the show? Email [e-mail] Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On today's Andy and Ari on 3 presented by BetMGM. We're joined by Arkansas State Coach Butch Jones, also known as former Tennessee, Cincinnati, and Central Michigan coach, Butch Jones. He tells us some great stories about his career, about his time at all these schools, about the time he spent at Alabama with Nick Sabin between Tennessee and Arkansas State.

But he left us with one burning question. Is Butch Jones invited to Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey's wedding? Because it kind of sounds like he might be. We'll talk about that. Arkansas State, Tennessee, Alabama, Cincinnati, Central Michigan, you name it. All in today is Andy Narion 3 presented by Bed MGM. We are brought to you by BetMGM. All the lines and totals we use come from Bedngm.

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Butch Jones, head coach at Arkansas State, former Tennessee head coach. This is a big one for producing. server because obviously massive Tennessee fan and Tennessee fans feel a certain way about Bush Jones. And I'm going to be curious to see how River feels pre-interview and post-interview because I've known Bush Jones for a long time. I've known him since he was the head coach at Cincinnati.

And good dude, you're going to like him. If you don't, if you haven't really met Butch Jones, you haven't heard him talk for an extended period of time. If you only heard the little sound bites while he was the coach of Tennessee. Brick by brick. we're going to get into that. You're going to like this guy. I'm telling you right now, you're going to come away like him.

And I'm curious to see how Producer River feels because Butch Jones's Tennessee teams played with Rivers' emotions as a young man. They broke the losing streak against Florida. They went on the Hail Mary against Georgia. Then they don't win the East. Then they don't go to the Sugar Bowl. and then it all falls apart in 2017. So for Tennessee fans, they rode the rollercoaster here.

But Bush Jones is an interesting guy. He's coached a lot of good plays. He coached Antonio Brown at Central Michigan. He coached the Kelsey's at Cincinnati. JJ Watt was in one of his Central Michigan recruiting classes. Remember, they had J.J. Watt at the tight end, and they were going to move into an offensive line, and then he decided to transfer to Wisconsin to play defense.

Like it, Bush Jones has been around for a lot of stuff. Yeah. You know what I think is interesting. Andy, you've been doing this on a national level for much longer that I have, that I have my perceptions of people from afar. You know, just based on covering the sport and, you know, seeing the clips and watching the interviews. And we have people on the show that I've been aware of and followed for years that I've never spoken with. And Butch Jones is one of those people. And I had a really awesome time talking to him.

I thought he was great guest. And, you know, super insightful, good stories. I came away rooting for him. So like, I don't know how, how River is going to take it. He's the ultimate test. Mr. V4L. Is that what they do? V4L.

Did I do that right? V. Oh, VFL. Just VFL. Oh. Yeah. It's okay. It's okay.

B4L is kind of cool, though. Yeah, but VFL. It kind of reminds me that too legit to quit. Yeah. too much. Emceehammer thing. Wow. Mom.

Cool. Have you seen people do that before? Wow. All right. No. Let's get to the Bush Jones interview. There's a little part in this where I'm looking around his office and he's telling a story about Josh Dobbs wedding and I get an idea.

We're going to have to dive into that. Here's Bush Jones. We are joined now by Arkansas State Coach Butch Jones. four decades of college football coaching experience. But this is, I'm fascinated to have you on because you've seen like the evolution of the sport. And so you were Central Michigan's coach, you know, in the early 2000s. Dang, I look at there. Holy cow.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Look at that. That's a good looking young man. You are now Arkansas State's head coach. jobs that are fairly similar in the ecosystem, but 20 plus years apart. How much has this all changed since then? Well, I think it's changed quite a bit.

And I think when you talk to coaches around the country, they're going to talk about our industry, all of college football, you know, in really uncharted territories with the amount of change that we've had, obviously all centered around the NIL, the revenue share, you know, all the things, and you go back to those Central Michigan days. We were 22 and 3 in Mid-American Conference Play, and you look at all the great players that we were able to coach there from the Nick Belores, who's in his 14th year in the National Football League,

captain of the Washington commanders, Antonio Brown. I think a lot of people forget that in our first recruiting class or signing class at Central Michigan, not only did we have Antonio Brown, but we had J.J. Watt as well. And when we left central Michigan, we had nine individuals that, you know, just didn't play in the National Football League, but had careers in the National Football League. And obviously, it'd be a challenge in today's world to really keep that team intact. So I think, you know, a lot of it has changed. I think the other thing is the overall dynamics and structure of the college football playoff now.

So now with the group of six programs having an opportunity to be represented in the football. playoff, I think a lot of things go into your non-conference scheduling as well. And I've always said it when you win eight or nine games at the group of six level, that's the equivalent of 10 or 11 wins, you know, at the Power 4 level just because of the challenge that we face, you know, with the non-conference schedule. And we're the only program in our conference that has faced Power 4's back to back. prior to last year, we had actually played the national champion back-to-back years. It's great for your program, but I think you have to keep everything in perspective.

But, you know, to really talk more about it, Andy, it's really revenue share in NIL. You know, everything else, your principles, your values, all that, what you stand for, those cannot ever be compromised. When you go through these major changes, and obviously, It's always been a business, but now it's business first. How do you maintain a love for what you do? And have you ever thought maybe this isn't for me anymore? No, not at all.

You know, I'm energized. And Coach Savin used to talk about it all the time. You have to constantly, you either adapt or you die. And so I think, you know, you used to say you adapt or you die. That's why there's no dinosaurs. So I think you have to constantly be adapting. You know, we always talk about lead the country and innovation. And I think you have to constantly do that.

And I think you have to continue to keep the main thing, the main thing. And that's still the overall development of your players. And, you know, obviously you're building your football program year to year, but we're going to be somewhat still of a developmental program. In the last two years here at Arkansas State, we've put five individuals in the National Football League that have been raised in our football program. So I think you adapt and adjust, but it gets back to, you know, your culture, your principles and your values never be compromised and never changed.

Do you just have to accept that some of those guys that you recruit and develop are probably going to leave at this point? Yeah, you know, you try to build a foundation and a culture where they want to stay and be a part of building something special. And we have a great culture. We really have some great things going on here at Arkansas State. But also, you know, I'm for our players. And if they have an opportunity to, you know, better,

themselves and better their family situations, I'm going to be an advocate for them. You look at Jalen Rainer, who, you know, was a starter for us as a true freshman, and now he's at Iowa State. So we've had some players move on. You really look at two players that were drafted in the National Football League in Sadu Trojori and Keiron Crawford. They were raised in our football program, and I still talk to them all the time. We still have a great relationship. And, you know, when the NFL came calling, you know, I was one of their business. biggest supporters because very appreciative of what they did for our football program, but also, you know, they deserve what has come their way.

So when we were going back and forth texting about what we're going to talk about today, you had sent me some photos of you at Josh Dobbs' wedding. And we can talk about what it's like to see these guys grow up. And Josh Dobbs, by the way, my two high school kids and I were talking the other day in the kitchen and we're talking about college majors and that sort of thing. And my daughter goes, what's the best backup plan ever? And my son goes, Josh Dobbs. He's an NFL quarterback and his backup plan is rocket scientist. So what is it like when you have a guy like that who you've coached and you've watched him turn into a grown man who is, I mean, he's still playing in the NFL?

Well, that's why you get into coaching is they have the ability to coach people like John. Josh Dobbs and being able to be at his wedding, we had 30 former players in the pure joy. You can see it in their faces and a lot of great football players there just kind of reminisce of all the things at Tennessee, but also, you know, where all our lives have kind of led us to. And the other thing is I've had a number of players from Tennessee that want to get into coaching. So I'm in the process of hiring a few of those individuals right now to, you know, get them

into the coaching rank. So that's also been very rewarding. But Josh Dobbs, I remember when we came to Tennessee, I said if there was one thing that we got out of this signing class, we need to find our future at quarterback. And, you know, Josh Dobbs, and we spoke about it, probably the most exhausting home visit I ever did. We actually moved home, and he was committed to Arizona State at the time because of the aeronautical engineering program. And his mother who is the best she had an NCAA manual and she took over six hours and so we walked out of that home and we were exhausted we actually spoke about that at the wedding but i can't say enough about him and what he's been able to do and mark of his tenure in the national football league as well

so i i got to ask you because i'm looking behind you and there's a Travis kelsey jersey behind you because obviously you coached Travis kelsey at Cincinnati do you think think you're going to get invited to that wedding. Well, I tell you what, the month of July is so busy, and we've played phone tag. I know he's got a lot going on, and so actually have to take care of some things back home in Saugatuck, Michigan. But we talk all the time and really excited for him. And it's crazy. He called me.

He was driving into work, and we were talking, and he made some innuendos about what was going to happen in the next 48 hours. but, you know, I kind of had an idea, but I didn't. So excited for him, and I think it's a great match. They're both really high, strong personalities, and I think there's some compatibility there. So are you talking about when he started dating Taylor or when he was talking about the wedding? No, this was the proposal. Oh, was the engagement.

So wait, he ran by his, he's hinting of his proposal to you. He didn't come out and say. it. But he made some comments. And I'm like, okay, this is kind of some interesting comments. And you know, when you talk to Travis, everything is tongue and cheek and it's brutal honesty. And there's always some levity and some humor along the way. So I kind of knew something was up at that point in time. And then I would get random phone calls. My wife and I are at the Sunbelt meetings. And it's about 3 o'clock in the morning. And I get a text message. And she's like, who's texting you? And it happened to be Travis and he was overseas and just checking up.

So again, he deserves everything that he gets. You talk about an individual who is really a self-made individual, really proud of him and also his brother Jason as well. And you look at probably that family two future gold jacket, you know, candidates coming in. And they'll be Hall of Famers when it's all said and done. You know, I don't know anybody who's in. to the most famous human being on the planet. But what I do know is a little thing about relationships. And if he's calling you and you guys weren't keeping in touch as much as you saying you are, he's talking about this proposal with you, that's a surefire invite.

But there's no way you're not invited to this wedding. And like, what do you wear to this thing? Like, this is going to be insane. I would imagine it's got to be a black tie. Like Josh Dobbs's wedding was a black tie affair. And so, again, you know, everything they do is with class, especially in Dobbs family. and I would think that the Kelsey's situation would be another than that as well.

But, you know, based on what we know from Jason and Travis, the bar will be well-stocked, it seems like. It'll be double-stocked. I'm just trying to think of the people who would be there. You'd have football people on one side and then, like, musicians and celebrities on the other. That would be the most insane wedding of all time to be invited to. I will tell you, the reception will probably go on forever, too.

You know, and it's funny when they go back to Cincinnati and they have the football golf outings, Sherry Murray's still the secretary there and she will call me and she'll kind of be like, okay, well, Travis and Jason didn't even get in. I heard until about three in the morning and all of a sudden they're strolling into play golf at 8 o'clock in the morning. And then Travis has to catch a flight back to L.A. And she's like, Bunch, I need you to lecture to him a little bit. So I don't think you ever stop being a dad when it comes to them. but they definitely, definitely bring life to anything that they do.

Well, since you are like an amazing storyteller, I want to ask you, Antonio Brown's obviously one of the most eccentric human beings on the face of the earth. Do you have any fun stories about coaching him? Yeah, I tell the story in recruiting all the time. All you had to do is tell Antonio Brown that he couldn't do something. And he was going to be motivated. His internal drive is something that I've never. ever seen before. So he would walk around with a laptop and his idol growing up was Chad Johnson

or as we know, Ocho Cinco. And so on YouTube, they have all these beach videos of him working out and I always say to Antonio, you're never going to have feet like Ocho Cinco. He'd be like, watch me, coach, watch me coach. So after his freshman year, he has like 120 catches for 1,200 yards. We let them live off campus. So one of our players says, coach, have you been to Antonio's apartment yet? I'm like, no. They're like, well, you need to go. So I show up, and it's kind of your typical college apartment, two bedrooms. But if you picture walking in the door, the stairs and you walk all the way up the stairs. So what he did is he took athletic tape from the training room and he taped a speed ladder.

So all the way down the end of the hallway to the bathroom and then into the two bedrooms. So every time he would go to bed or get up in the night to use the bathroom, he would do the ladders for his foot. quickness. And then the other bedroom served as his other weight room. So I think he stole half of our weight room because he had a stretching apparatus, every band, everything that you could think of he had in his apartment. And people wonder what it really takes to make the NFL. It has to be speed laddering your way to bed. I mean, the man does have like the best footwork of all time, right? Yes, but he worked hard at it. And Tony would probably get angry and argue with me if I, if I said this, but I'm going to say it.

He's probably a four, five, nine, four, five, eight on the 40 on the clock all day long. But what was remarkable is he was that from the first play of the game to the last play of the game. His endurance, his competitiveness, his initial quickness was elite. And, you know, we made him a punt returner. So our first game at Central Michigan, it was a year that Kansas was. was loaded. And we're getting beat like 58 to 10. And Antonio was a true freshman. He was a high school quarterback. So he had never really played receiver. So he's tugging on my shirt wanting to go into the game. So we put him in the fourth quarter and we give him a reverse. And I mean, he makes

everybody miss. And he turns a five yard loss into about a 55 yard gain. And he comes off the sideline. He says, see, I told you, coach. And after that, we fed him the ball. We made him our punt returner and the rest is history. So all right, speaking of on the sideline, this is one I've wondered about. You're in Athens, Georgia, 2016. You got one play left. Yeah. What is going through your mind before Josh Jobs throws to Juan Jennings? Well, Andy, it's amazing you bring that up because still to this day in recruiting, I'll have parents sit in my office or players that were recruiting and they want to know the story. They still remember it like it was yesterday.

And if you really push the rewind button in about 50 seconds, we went from winning the game to losing the game to winning the game. But it really all set up that we had used this end-of-the-game kickoff return. It was really our hands team. And we got it from the New England Patriots, and it was set for an end-of-the-game situation like that, whether they were going to sky kick it or squib kick it. And I remember watching the game.

on TV and kind of hearing the commentators and Gary Danielson is like, what is going on? Tennessee has their hands team on. They've misjudged this situation. Well, we had actually practiced that for about two years and never used it. So we finally had the opportunity.

And our players executed it brilliantly in that moment in time. So we got the ball right around midfield or so. So actually, we're in a three by one set. We knew we had one timeout left. We actually put Joanne Jennings, who caught the ball. We actually put him into the boundary. And so if they were just one-on-one and the safety was shaded to the three-by side,

we were just, Josh knew he was going to take the one-on-one with Joanne, but they had a safety over the top. So we called timeout. So we actually changed the formation on the sideline. Jawan had never been the point guy, the number two guy, and the three-by-one side. We put them there. And I tell you what it was brilliant. Elvick-Comar did a really good job in Pass Pro that probably people.

People don't realize with helping secure the edge rush. And then Josh pushed the pocket. It made a brilliant throw. And then the rest is Joanne Jennings going up. And I just remember the coaches on the headphones saying, he caught it, he caught it, he caught it. And it's one of those moments in time that you'll never forget. Yeah. That's one of the most iconic plays in my entire life.

I cannot imagine living through something like that. You know what was, you know, when you go back and you relive it, though, of being in the moment, everybody believed we were going to win a football game. There is absolutely no doubt. You look at what just happened in terms of that was a catastrophic play. We were in a drop eight coverage, and I believe was Easton was the quarterback. He made probably a once in a million throw to the backside receiver. I think it was Ridley.

And, you know, for our players to not, you know, blink in that moment with the crowd being on the road, I mean, you know what it's like going on the road in the SEC. and from the kickoff return to the final play of the game, it was like slow motion. It was like we knew we were going to find a way to win the football game. And, you know, that was also coming off for heels of an emotional win the week before in Knoxville, first time in many years that we'd also beat Andy's alma mater, the University of Florida. Yeah.

You know, I don't know if you was coming up. I had to go to you. I'm sorry. Watch our producer is a huge Tennessee fan. And as you're taking us through that, he's like sending us all. the names of the players on the team. It's like reliving the good times, and I want to let you know he's smiling down there. I want to ask you about this, Bush, that the time you spent at Tennessee, I'd imagine that

was a pretty educational experience. Now that you've had some years to look back on it, like you had some success there, but it didn't quite work out the way he wanted it to. What did you learn from that experience? Boy, I learned a lot, you know. And first of all, you know, one thing about Tennessee, it's an extremely special place. It's got a great, passionate fan base. My kids still consider Knoxville home. Alex, who played for me at Tennessee, also was a student coach for us at Alabama.

He's our tight ends coach here. He's married. His wife is from Farragut. My middle son, Adam, just moved back to Knoxville. So, you know, Knoxville is kind of embedded in who we are. But you learned so much, you know, kind of didn't really kind of know it's probably a good thing what I was getting myself into. But really proud of a lot of the things that we were able to accomplish there, but also disappointed in a lot of things. And if you really go back when we came to Tennessee, it was a total rebuild, not to, you know, talk about what had gone on there in the past.

But, you know, it was a different era. So you didn't have quick fixes like you had. so you had to basically recruit your way out of it. And so, you know, to kind of give you an idea is, you know, the average attendance when we came in was 77,000, and that's not good university at the city. And when you play in 102,455-seat stadium, but, you know, by the end of our tenure,

we were selling the games out. And I think when you look at the back-to-back wins, we just spoke about the great Georgia win, the Florida win, three straight bowl. games. I still remember going to the Gator Bowl in Jacksonville like it was yesterday and it was our first bowl appearance in a number of years and we played the University of Iowa and had a convincing win. And I'll never forget that the president of the Gator Bowl coming in the locker room afterwards, this coach, you guys did it, man. You broke all kinds of bowl records. I'm like,

really, what did we break? He goes, well, first of all, your fan attendance was the most we've ever had. And also your fans ate us out of all the hot dogs and drank of me with me. And we laughed about that. And that's Tennessee. I love everything about Tennessee and what they stand for. And again, that'll always be a part of who we are. You look at the Battle of Bristol and breaking the fan attendance record. But also, you know, there's things I'm not going to hide behind it.

There's a lot of things that I wish we could have done better. You know, when you look at I'm extremely disappointed for our players and for our fans that we weren't able to win an SEC championship, nor a national championship. And that's always the goals when you're the head football coach at the University of Tennessee. And we had a great opportunity. I thought we put ourselves in that position, particularly in 2016. And we weren't able to do it. And, you know, we did a lot of good things.

But, you know, you look at not behind the, head behind the brick by brick. But the brick by brick actually is kind of a funny story, is there's a prominent head football coach. former head football coach in the National Football League with Tennessee ties. And he had visited us. And he knew exactly what we had to do and how we had to recruit our way out of it. He made a comment. We're talking on the phone. He said, Butch, you just got to build it brick by brick. And so that's actually how the brick by brick started. And then it was a recruiting mantra that, you know, we're trying to generate momentum and probably should have kept it internally. But as you all know, it kind of created a life of its own. And that's the other thing, And with the tenure, I'm going to beat you to it handy, is the champions of life. And that was actually the big 12 slogan for their conference at that particular time. And I was doing it to protect our players. We were heading into Senior Day and the Josh Dobbs of the world and all those individuals that had really helped lay the foundation for future successes and the success that we had. And it was just a way of saying that I respect them and respect them for what they did and they were great people.

You know, a lot to take away from that Tennessee experience. And it'll always be a part of who we are. It'll always be a part of my family. And I'm indebted for the opportunity and appreciative to say that I was a head football coach at Tennessee. And also, if your backup plan is rocket scientist and you wound up an NFL quarterback, you are a champion of life. There's no question about that. He just called me.

He's working on some different things with NASA and transportation and college football. So I set up some interviews for him, and he's constantly moving. You know, Josh Dobbs is never going to sit still. He must have been fired up on SpaceX when public last week. Bush, I have a question for you. Because we're on a podcast. After Tennessee, you went and spent time at Bama, and it might be remiss than a bad podcast host if I didn't ask.

Give us your best Nick Sabin story. You know, I used to have to always walk in, and I was the one who kind of mentored the players. So we always would say, when we get into the staff room, name, rank, serial number. That's it. He's going to ask you your opinion, and he'll have his bifocals on. And if he looks up at you, that means he wants your opinion. If he doesn't look up at you, don't answer the question.

It is a trick question. And we had some one coaches that we had just hired that kind of like the talk. And he says, well, what do you guys think? And obviously he did not look up to the bifocals, and they wanted to give their opinion. And they got blown up for about five minutes. We walked out of the staffing. I'm like, dude, I told you,

name rank serial number. Do not answer unless he looks up at you. How does that, how do you decide, you know, when you get into that organization? Because I've talked to Mike Loxley and some different guys who've gone through that process. But when you get in an organization, what your role is going to be.

Is it Coach Saban tells you, here's what I need you to do? Or is there a dialogue about that? That is a great question. It evolves. And basically you evolve it. And he's evaluating you, and he's not going to bring anybody into that program

that can't create value for the program. And I tell you what, my three years there were remarkable. And when I went there, I had a national media member tell me this, and I never forgot it. They said, Butch, you have an incredible, incredible advantage over the coaching profession in your peers. And I'm like, what's that?

They said, just think of it like this. You just concluded half time of your career from central Michigan to Cincinnati to Tennessee. Now you get to going at halftime and work with Nick Sabin and then get ready for the third and fourth quarters of your career. And I tell you what, I wouldn't trade those three years for anything, especially the last year and a half. And the guy who kind of holds everything together is their trainer, Jeff Allen. He is the best of the best. And him and I would always have in-depth conversations. And we talk about, you know, everybody wants, wanted the Bama way. They wanted the Nick Sabin way. So you would hire people. And you can't copy and paste the culture. There's only one Nick Sabin. And so a lot of times they don't know why we did things. They just know that's what we did at Bama. With the last year and a half, in that role of being a special assistant to the head coach, I was able to find out the whys and the why we did things.

And it was remarkable. And he sets the temperament for everybody in that program. We used to joke that he must have a charger tied to his chair because every time he goes home at night, he charges himself up. He is the best, consider a close friend. And he's the greatest of all time. And there's a reason why he is. Can you give us an example of one of the whys we do something?

Like, I find that to be fascinating. Well, I think, you know, everyone coach uses trust the process. You know, trust the process, but they really don't know what the process means. And really trust the process is we're all gauged by the end result. We're in a result-oriented world. So when you put those results on your plate, what does that do? That builds anxiety. And so he was always trying to eliminate the anxiety from the players.

So what trust the process is is it's a bridge that kind of bridges the work ethic that it's going to need to accomplish the things that you want to accomplish. So instead of thinking about I need 50 catches, I need 10 touchdowns, you're going to focus on the process and that's doing the things that you need to do to get the outcomes that you want. I'm going to put a speed ladder in my hallway. It's a speed ladder by Antonio Brown. That is incredible. Yeah, absolutely incredible.

But you do not have the defending national champion on your schedule this year, which is nice. You do have to open with Memphis, which is not going to be easy because Charles Huff is a very good coach. But excited to see what you do. I want to ask you this. So first time guests, we always ask them the same question before we go. And so I'm springing this on you, so I'm sorry about that. But sudden change. What is your rule for life?

You're the rule, like the one rule you live by, what is that rule? Live every day to the fullest and have no regrets. And, you know, every time I go to bed at night, I say, okay, did I, do I, if I had the opportunity to do the day over again, would I do anything different? And if you can say no, then you've had a great day. If you say, okay, I didn't like how this turned out or I didn't do this well, then it gives you fuel and ammunition to get up the next day and approach. the day a little bit differently. But I think, you know, you got to get back, you know, Sean,

if they talked about it, you got to get back to have enjoy and enjoying what you're doing. And I think being very blessed and being thankful for everything that you have and enjoying life a little bit. I lost my mother in February and we were very close. And I think when you lose people like that, you know, you kind of, it kind of brings you back full circle of why do you do the things that you do, keeping the main thing the main thing. Well, that is very, very good advice. We will definitely be hitting you up when the season starts. But between now and then, if you happen to go to any weddings,

we may have you back. Yeah, send us pictures, please, promise. Yeah. Coach, thank you so much. I appreciate y'all's time and really look forward to doing this more. We need to do this more often. So thank you. And I will send the picture.

Thank you so much. Okay, all right. What do we think? This is the question I have. What do we think? Is Butch Jones invited to Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey's wedding? So here's the problem that I have sometimes where I like equate my social patterns and how things go in my life to like the way a celebrity would move. And like Travis Kelsey is an athlete.

And, you know, up until maybe six years ago was probably closer to a human being like me than he. was the Taylor Swift. Now he's one of the most famous people on earth as well because everybody who loves Taylor Swift is aware of who he is. But if you read the tea leaves on the questions that we were asking and some of the nuggets that Butch was dropping, he did allude to the fact that he calls him late at night. They catch up. They speak regularly. They text a lot. They text a lot. If I was getting married, somebody that I would call out of the blue or somebody that was important to me in my life, uh,

that's an automatic, obvious invite. And like that, and I only had 75 people at my wedding. So like, um, we had 200 at ours. Yeah, 75 is, is surprisingly small. Like I was like 75 people. That's a lot. But when you start getting into spouses and stuff, you really run down the list of family and spouses, uh, really, really get there quickly.

But I'm assuming that this wedding is going to have, I mean, you telling me about rumors about this wedding being taken to MSG. I've gone down the rabbit hole on the wedding. because this is not something I typically follow. No. So I didn't know what was going on with their wedding. It sounds like it's happening pretty soon. Like it may be like maybe as early as the end of next week.

So where do you read when you're researching this? Like what websites are you looking at? So I've been to TMZ. I've been to people. George Kittle got quoted in people about it. So because Taylor Swift was at tight end you in Nashville this week with Travis Kelsey. I mean, there have been some celebrity weddings. that have been televised before, right?

Well, yeah, when my daughter was born, that was the day I believe Prince William got married to Kate Middleton. Yeah. So, like that, yeah, but, well, I remember as a kid watching the Charles and Diana wedding, but this is not one of, I don't think this is going to be televised. I'm assuming everybody who's invited has to sign an NDA. The rumor now is that it's at Madison Square Garden, which seems, that seems like a fake out to me.

I will tell you though, if it is an MSG and everybody will buzz around Madison Square Garden will be in a totally different city. If it is at MSG and he doesn't get invited, that's a snub. I would take that as an affront to our relationship. If you're doing a little intimate thing, you know, where, you know, Jay-Z's there

and you have a few other people like I get it. But like if you have, what is it, 15,000 seats in that place? It was more than that. More than that. 20. 20? You know, I think,

Butch deserves one of those, especially considering the fact that I'm assuming that Travis Kelsey views him as one of the main reasons why he's in the position to marry Taylor Swift in the first place. So, because let's be honest, if Travis Kelsey was a plumber, ain't happening. I hope it happens. And if it does, I mean, I don't know what he'd even be allowed to say, but hopefully the next time he's on the show, you can tell us a little bit about it. Yeah.

But so this, this brief. brings me to the next thing, which is the important thing here, which is football part of this, yes. Yeah. Although I think you are writing a column about this, and that'll probably do better than any football column you'll write if you end up doing it. Butch Jones's legacy at Tennessee is defined as what in your mind? Failure?

I don't look at it as failure because I, like, I'll tell you, I remember visiting Knoxville early in his tenure, and it was spring practice. And they had a practice the next day. And I came by the facility to see the great Bill Martin, their sports information guy. And they, Butch Jones is apologizing to NFL people. It's their pro day.

He's apologizing because there aren't really anybody, there's not really anybody to look at. And that's basically what he inherited from Derek Dooley. So they were in a bad, spot at that point. The brick by brick thing, like he talked about, they need a lot of bricks at that point. So to get them to a point where they could beat Florida and Georgia in the same season was a pretty big move. That took a lot of work. He just couldn't keep it going. And remember the time, too, of it wasn't roster flip season back then. Right. You couldn't, yeah, you couldn't do

that. So it took several years to get them in a position to be competitive. He got them in a position to be competitive. He just couldn't get them the rest of the way. I think what killed him, what absolutely killed him, and we'll have to get producer river's opinion on this. Yeah. I mentioned this too. So going into senior day, somebody asked him, do you regret not winning the SEC? So here's what happened that 2016 season. They beat Florida, they beat Georgia, they beat Texas A&M in that overtime game in college station. They get their doors, blown off by Alabama. Sorry.

They lost A&M. They lost A&M game. You're right. Okay. That's right. My bad. We have a V4L. Copy editing.

They get their doors blown off by Alabama, which was to be expected, but they have wins in hand over Florida and Georgia. So as long as they win the rest of their SEC East games, they're going to be fine. They lose to South Carolina. That's what costs in the East. And then so he gets asked about, do you feel bad that these guys aren't going to go out with an SEC East title or an SEC title? And he says, well, they're champions of life, which you can't say that then. In that moment, you can't say that.

And then they lose to Vanderbilt, which knocks them out of the Sugar Bowl. Like they would have played the Sugar Bowl if they'd beat in Vanderbilt. And so you have that, the recruiting class the next year, he gets asked about that and he's like, well, they have five-star hearts because it was the results were slightly disappointing. And that didn't go over well either. And my issue with Butch, and I remember I wrote a column about this the following SEC Media Days. So the 2017 SEC Media Days, I was covering it for SI. And he got asked over and over and over in the big room, how disappointed are you at the way things went last season?

And he wouldn't say he was disappointed about it. And it sounded like he was trying to polish it up and make it sound better than it was. And I think now that you've heard a longer conversation with Butch Jones, you kind of understand how his personality works. And like he's he's not the type to dwell on the negative. He's going to try to spin everything as positively as possible. And what I wrote in the column, and actually a coach. called me, another SEC coach called me when the column came out, who had not gone at SEC Media Days that year yet. He was coming, I think, the next day or two days later. He calls me,

he goes, holy crap, you're pretty harsh on Butch. And I said, all he needed to do was say he was disappointed. Because the Tennessee fan wants to know that he's as disappointed as they are. And I told this other coach, I was like, listen, you and I both know he's far more disappointed than any Tennessee fan is about what happened last year. Yeah. It's his job. We talk so much, too, about what it's like to coach in the SEC, right? Yeah. And I know everyone's familiar with the cliches of it's deep and everyone cares and all the things that we talk about all the time.

But I do think that there is a certain level of communication that has to agree. with a rabid fan base. You have to be very careful about how you communicate when you're the head coach at a place like that. And it reminds me of Dan Mullen. The day I return back from maternity leave, paternity leave, not maternity. Although my daughter did tell my wife, my wife. Biological breakthrough, are I? I don't know.

Sometimes I look down and I wonder, but it is in the room, what he said, the day I got back from paternity leave, which was. Oh, this would be the Dan Mullen. And Dan Mullen, Dave Waters asked the question about recruiting. And Dan Mullen says, we'll talk about recruiting when it's recruiting season. And when you say things like that, because in the SEC, it's June, it's January, it's December, it's July, every month in between, it's always recruiting season and the SEC. And now it's always recruiting season everywhere. But there are just certain things that from an expectation standpoint, even if you don't believe what you're saying, you cannot say it. There is no flowering losses.

There is no trying to make it better through words. The only thing that makes anything better in SEC territory is acknowledging when you fell up short and then making it better by winning. There's no talking your way out of coming up short in the SEC. And I think there's certain people that understand that. I've never heard Kirby Smart come out and say, that's okay, we're champions of life. And like, you would never do it. Kirby grew up in it. And I think that that helps.

Like having grown up in it, he naturally understands what will land and what won't. Yeah. And I think that like that's part of the reason why Mike Elko is doing so well at A&M. Like he showed up there after coming from an ACC job and coaching all over the country at all different levels. And he spoke SEC language. Like SEC coach language is a thing. He speaks it. Everything out of his mouth is don't be soft.

We'll get better. We're going to do it. I'm disappointed. Like all the things that they want to hear. And I think that the fan at the SEC level, the rabid ones, especially want to feel the pain that they feel from the people who are in the building.

And I can tell you right now, Butch Jones felt way worse than the average Tennessee fan about those losses that we're talking about. But it is an interesting dynamic in college. They just wanted to hear him say that. You know, it's an interesting dynamic in college football. And I've actually had to deal with this too,

because before I got into this position, I was write columns nationally at the athletic about people that I had never met. And somebody that I've been very harsh on in the past, Andy, is Davosweeney. And I had never really had any interaction with him. I would watch the press conferences and, you know, write opinions based on things that he would say. And then you meet the guy.

And it's like, holy shit, I was wrong about this guy. And it doesn't mean that I don't agree with the opinions that I had about it. You can still criticize him. But I think that you get a better. Yeah. But like, I think understanding the human goes a long way and understanding what they say.

And I don't think that a lot of people have the benefit. Obviously, nobody, and the most part, has the benefit that we do of actually interacting with these people as humans. But through a television screen, it's very hard to get the aura of somebody. And this is why I think it's interesting. It's like, Butch Jones, I've seen the tweets. I know what River's going to say when he comes up here. I know what-River. Actually, show us the tweet you sent as a high schooler.

let's see it Coach Jones on barely 140 pounds probably don't have a star but I have a five-star heart I'm an excellent holder and I have some skill at wide receiver listen there are real ones who've been watching this show from the beginning have seen Producer Rivers highlight tape

is a nasty nasty dog on the football field I could cook I'll tell you did not like if the blindside block rules that existed has been in place then I don't know that You might have been suspended for multiple games in your high school career. But here's the thing.

Saying we have a five-star heart is the easiest thing in the world to mock. Yeah. It was so easy. It was like low-hanging fruit. And you already lost and it was just Twitter. It's like the cousin to when Michigan people would say our school, we're better at school than you. Oh, it's like, yeah, it's like the Jim Delaney memo after Ohio State lost to Florida.

It's like the SEC's fast because it's dumb. Yeah, it's like, honestly, Michigan, you're a great school. And maybe the SEC was, I don't know, no one cares. The only thing that anybody cares about is if you're good at football and if you win the game. And I understand that there are certain elements to a coach's legacy that obviously, you know, as we. talked about Jim Tressel earlier in the week and the touching of the lives certainly comes into play, but nobody remembers the people who only touched people's lives. They remember the people who won while touching people's lives. And that's the thing with Bush, and I think

Butch understands that, like, he didn't get it done at Tennessee. Like, he got them to a good spot, and he couldn't keep them there. It wasn't a complete disaster, but I think that when people remember him, they remember it as if it were. And I don't know why. Because it was a completely Part quickly in 2017. That's part of the problem. It's the way it fell apart because you were riding the high of the beating Florida for the first time in 11 years. Georgia Hellmerry was the next week after. And then you go through this skid of losing double overtime at A&M.

You get your doors beat in by Nick Sabin. You have the buy week. And then you go to South Carolina and Jalen Hurd, the all SEC running back decides I don't want to play. And then the wheels just come off. They start asking Butch, why is Jalen Hurd gone? why are you losing this? And then he, he was a very player,

he protected his players to almost, to have, criticized his players publicly at all. Yeah. Yes. Which I, and like, I think that when you think about the motivations for all these things,

you can certainly get it on a human level. So, and that's, that's what I want to ask River, because you, this is before you got to school, before you worked within the program at Tennessee. Yeah.

So you're just viewing all of this as a fan. Yeah. What was it like for you to, to then, you know, as we record the interview, hear the human being behind this. Well, I told you afterwards, I was like, I kind of felt bad for all the things I said about him

when I was 17, 18 years old. I mean, the thing about Butch was, is he came in with like so much just pitchy stuff that you hear from coaches. And it sold really well because, I mean, Dooley left that program in the worst spot it's been in my lifetime. Can I give you the best Derek Dooley staff? ever and I'm sure you know what it is.

You know how many offensive line when he signed in his last recruiting class? Zero! Zero! So like you go from Dooley to seeing Hope from Butch and like I mean I don't remember 98 this is the most excited I've ever been for Tennessee football. Tennessee was ranked

top 10 going into 2016. Like expectations were high. Both seasons or prior season before had been building brick by bricker building and 2015, honestly, I thought was the better team before. That was Camara's first year there. Yeah.

The problem is 2015 didn't, they didn't gel quickly enough. Because if they had, I think they may win the East that year. Yes. Because Florida wins the East that year, and Florida wasn't very good. Let's ask him the question, though. What was you, if I, before we did the interview, I would have said, tell me what you think of Butch Jones. What would you have said? I would have said he'll probably maybe feel disingenuine and maybe brush over the Tennessee stuff.

But he didn't. He was very real about it, was grateful for his time in Knoxville. He seems very fond of it. Like I said, I feel bad for what I said about the guy when I was in high school. Well, and River, you and I have both lived, like, you grew up in East Tennessee and then went to Tennessee. I lived in Knoxville for two years. I don't know a lot of people who lived in Knoxville who did not love living there. Yeah, great place.

Yeah. So I think that's the thing. And it's interesting. And he was telling us some stories off air about meeting Tennessee fans kind of in the wild. And once you get to know the person, once you see the person, they're not the symbol anymore. And I think that's the hardest part. And I've said this about Tennessee as a job. I think it's one of the most pressure-packed jobs in sports, the Tennessee.

the Tennessee football coaching job. Obviously, Alabama is up there too. But I think it's on the level of like New York Yankees manager in terms of pressure. It is it. The Knoxville media market is smaller, but it is vicious. And the talk radio is vicious in Knoxville. And that's the thing too is Butch in 2017 when it, when he kind of wouldn't say he was, or he wouldn't say he was disappointed in the 16th season.

There was some stuff going on in the locker room. and again, he defended his players. It was a reported fight with shy tunnel, the defensive tackle. Butch said he fell on a helmet. Right. A lot of all fans really didn't like that. And then it was just the start of the terrible zero. Right.

The season went badly there. Yeah. And that was just kind of, yeah. But you know, you know the thing that I, go ahead, Andy. I was going to say, you can't pay attention. If you're the Tennessee coach, you cannot pay attention to what people say. And I think, I think Bush did pay attention some. to what people said. That's why I think

Heipel is actually really well suited for the job because he does not care what people think. He really doesn't. He will if they lose, he'll tell you he's mad about it. Like he will tell you I'm upset, but we got to build on this. We got to get better. But he'll

say it wasn't up to standard. I don't think that jobs for everybody. No. I really don't. I don't think I would want it. Like the way people care in East Tennessee is God love them. It's it's something special. It's something special. You know what I was thinking they love a little too hard. Yeah. Here's what I was thinking. And I don't know if he's ever going to get the opportunity. But I do wonder at times when you have people like Butch Jones and the experience that he's had and how many people he's worked for and the saving rehabilitation tour and what I can't imagine is a pretty thick roll-a-dix of influence, influence, names that he's had relationships with.

If you were to plant him back in the Tennessee job now, or another job of that stature with the way that the sport is set up, if there are coaches that have been through the ringer from the previous regimes that they had in previous eras of college football, if those would be more well suited to be successful now and would actually be good hires at big-time places that will never get the chances because of the stigmas that people have about it. Right. And I don't think they'll get the chances.

And part of it is this, the game has changed so much, the errors change so much. Our assumption, and I don't think it's just us. I think this is ADs and everybody else, is that only younger people can make those adjustments. But like, we just talked to Dave Doran. Yeah. He's made a lot of adjustments.

Now, Dave is, Dave is younger than people think. He became a head coach at a very young age. But he's in his 50s. Like, I think people consider him one of the older, you know, older, wiser coaches now. But there are guys who are older who are willing to adapt. But I think, to your point, I'm not sure the people doing the hiring are going to accept that.

I think they're going to be like, ah, let's find the next 30-something hot shot. Do you think that it's ageism just because Sean McVeigh won a Super Bowl and it became in vogue? Or do you think that it's ageism because that we perceive that you need a higher level? of energy to keep up with all the crap that coaches have to keep up with. I think the reason for that is. It's what you just said. It's that.

But I also think it is the assumption that older people are inflexible and they won't change. Yeah. And I think, look at Kurt Signetti. He's older. He's rolled with the punches as the rules have changed. Yeah. We weren't paying attention to it because he was coaching the FCS. I mean, everything in sports is a pendulum.

Remember, I mean, even in like tactical football, it's like you need a five-star NFL quarterback. Now you need an offensive, like a receiver, like things change, how you build your roster changes. And I wonder if Kurt Signetti is the pendulum swinging back the other way of like maybe the person that you hire is the more experienced guy. Well, yeah, and it's a good, it's a good point because like Willie Fritz won 10 games at Houston last year. What if Willie Fritz wins the big 12 this year? That's what I'm saying. Does everybody want really Fritz at that point?

I mean, Brad Bilema, too, at Illinois has done really well. Yes. And he succeeded in different areas. And just as like, I love this podcast because I just feel like I'm talking to you guys at lunch. But like, let me ask you this. We both love Kenny Dillingham, right? You drafted him in the upcoming draft that we're going to have on Monday next week. If you're making $4 million, is it harder to view him as a superior?

because he looks like you. Like, do you need a fatherly, for a lack of a better term? You mean as a player? Yeah, I'm saying if you're the five-star quarterback making $4 million and your coach is 31 years old, and not Kenny's older than that, but if you're playing for somebody really young,

do they have the wisdom and the fatherly presence or the authority figure presence of somebody that would have age discrepancy on you? Again, maybe I'm full of shit. I'm not, I'm just like, I don't know. I'm going to go back to your McVey comparison. Sean McVey. He's always started the trend.

He's not even 40 yet, is he? He is 40. 40? He's exactly 40. How old is his quarterback? Mid-30s, right? 38. Matthew Sefer is 38.

So, to your difference, I don't think that matters as much. I think it's what we talked about, whether you're in your 60s, or your 30s, if you can show these players. This goes back to the conversation we were having about Dusty May. Yeah. And going to the NBA and the coaches who can succeed in this era and coach players who have agency, you have to show them, you can give them something. You have to show them you can add something to their career, add something to their game,

you know, make them better at what they do. and I don't think it matters how old you are. I think if you can do that, you got a shot. Yeah, I'm just thinking like when you're an 18, 19 year old kid, you might be more apt to listen to somebody who's older because of just the way to you're up. I think some people would rather it be someone closer to their age, and some people would rather it be someone who reminds them more of their dad.

But the tricky part, I think for all of these coaches, is being able to bridge the gap with the person who wants the opposite. it. Yeah. Yeah. But I am very curious. I think the Willie Fritz thing is really interesting. It's like, what if they go out and win the Big 12 this year?

Yeah. You know, I don't know. And then if there are jobs open in the SEC and the Big Ten, is he the top of the list for all of them? Like, what if Kyle Whittingham makes the playoff? Yeah. I do think it could swing back the other way. But I'm fascinated. And yeah, if Butch wins the Sunbelt, like our guys.

looking at him and saying, you know what, it's a different error now. Maybe he gets another shot. Yeah, I bet you Dan Mullen's going to come back around the pike at some point. Dan Mullen is going to get another shot. I can try that right now. Like, yeah, he absolutely is going to get another shot. So, yeah, I think it's fascinating to watch because everything changed and everybody had to change.

And I think the people who wanted out are out by now. Yeah. Yeah. Also, which is kind of funny because it's different in every sport. There's not a lot of recycling of fired coaches in college football, like at the same level. Like coaches who've been fired moved down. Right. And Pat Fitzgerald is a unique one. Like he's starting at Michigan State this year. He was fired at Northwestern, but it was amid a scandal, which by the way, Pat Fitzgerald settled lawsuit with Northwestern. I think he settled.

Either settled or won. They paid him. Let's put it that way. He settled. It doesn't matter what happened. He got money. Yeah. He got paid.

So it wasn't a case of them firing him over his performance, though I do think there was a little element to that. But yeah, I mean, but. But, but it's fun. You're at James Madison this year. It'll be interesting. Yeah. And maybe you win your way back up into the realms. But like, you know who comes to mind?

Because we just got done watching the New York Knicks run. It's like Mike Brown's been the head coach at multiple places. And in the NBA, I feel like coaches, and in the NHL especially, like John Tororella has been the head coach of every NHL franchise that exists. Like in pro sports, coaches get fired and then get like John Harbaugh in the NFL. Like it was just they land on their feet at the same exact level. And it doesn't seem to really be the case in college. And I wonder how many people would have actually been awesome.

The only one I can think of. Yeah. And it's not the same level. It's not the same level. It's close. Yeah. So and James Franklin, if he wins the ACC, might have a chance to win his way back up.

But I do think that we've probably punted on people who failed the first time around and would have been very good if given the second opportunity that never got one, especially considering the fact the line between success and failure in college football is so thin. Agreed. There aren't a lot of people who get fired when it's a complete dumpster fire for four years. Like sometimes it's right. You have one bad chemistry year and it can just snowball on you. You could do one fake punt call and it can.

could torch you. Could you imagine if Kirby Smart didn't win the championship soon after that that fake punt that he had in the SEC title game? Who knows? Well, I mean, they did, they got killed in the SEC championship game by LSU the following year. And I remember asking Kirby Smart in the press conference after that game. Do you think you need to fix your offense? I can't remember how I phrased the question. It was basically like LSU finally changed this offense and look at this. Are you ever going to do that? Yeah. And he did not like that question. Yeah, and also, don't you feel like a real asshole for asking it now? I do.

Because he won himself two national titles. I think he knew what he was doing. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see how things play out, but I wanted to thank Bush personally for coming on. And I thought that was a really fun conversation. It was great. And we will have him back on. And I don't, again, I don't know if he's going to the wedding.

If he is, he probably had to sign an NBA. He owes us to tell us much. But he owes us tea if he does go. Oh, my God. I can't wait. It's listen I think next time

we just we need more Antonio Brown stories too. Yeah, that card ladder one was wild. And the fact that he had half the weight room in his other apartment bedroom. I mean,

I think that it does take a certain type of psychopath to become a professional athlete. And like Antonio Brown obviously illustrated those traits enough to do what he did. So, you know, I do think that it's

really cool to interview people who have been around icons. And Nick Saban and Antonio Brown are icons for very different reasons, but it was cool to hear about both of them. Exactly, exactly. Thank you so much for listening and watching. Dear Andy, dear Ari, tomorrow. We'll talk to you then.