Andy & Ari On3 - How Eric Morris will REVIVE Oklahoma State in 2026

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Over in Stillwater, Oklahoma, Eric Morris is set to fill some big shoes this season, replacing Mike Gundy after 21 seasons in Boone Pickens. Now, after leading North Texas to the American title championship game, Morris is set to lead the Cowboys out of the depths of the Big 12 conference. Will the Cowboys be able to turn it around in Eric Morris’ first season? Watch here as the Oklahoma State head coach joins Andy & Ari.   (0:00) Today’s Episode (1:26) Presenting Sponsor (3:06) Intro: Previewing Eric Morris (4:44) Eric Morris joins (10:57) The reception at Oklahoma State (13:13) QB Whisperer: Eric Morris (19:40) Eric Morris the basketball player (22:00) Bringing Drew Mestemaker in (25:01) Oklahoma State’s Roster Build (29:40) Eric Morris’ rules for life (31:57) Recapping the interview with Eric Morris (42:03) Josh Heupel on an expanded CFP (58:13) Ari’s visit with Crain & Cone (1:00:05) Ari’s Debate vs Brooks Austin (1:04:40) Recapping Ari’s Debate: Big Ten vs SEC (1:17:20) Conclusion: Thanks for watching!   After Eric Morris joins the show, Andy & Ari dive into Chris Low’s story on Josh Heupel and an expanded playoff. Leading the Volunteers in his 6th season, Heupel discusses why it makes sense for the sport to expand the playoff. Do you agree?   Chris’s story here: https://www.on3.com/news/josh-heupel-shares-the-passion-of-the-tennessee-fan-base-to-win-a-national-title-were-in-a-race-to-get-it-done-as-fast-as-possible/   To close, Ari visited our friends at Crain & Cone to debate the great Brooks Austin. Watch here as Andy & Ari recap Ari’s visit.   Ari’s full debate with Brooks Austin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rngimjQyg-g   Thanks for watching!   Send in your questions for Dear Andy & Ari here: [e-mail] [e-mail]   Our show is also presented by BetMGM!   If you haven’t signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code CFB and you will get up to a $1500 First Bet Offer on your first wager with BetMGM! Here’s how it works:   1. Download the BetMGM app and sign-up using bonus code CFB. 2. Deposit at least $10 and place your first wager on any game. 3. You will receive up to $1500 in bonus bets if your bet loses! Just make sure you use bonus code CFB when you sign up!   Make this college football season one for the history books. Make it legendary.   See BetMGM.com for Terms. 21+ only. US promotional offers not available in New York, Nevada, Ontario, or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER (Available in the US). Call 877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Call 1-800-NEXT-STEP (AZ), 1-800-327-5050 (MA), 1-800-BETS-OFF (IA), 1-800-981-0023 (PR). First Bet Offer for new customers only. Subject to eligibility requirements. Rewards are non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire in 7 days. In partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel.   Join On3 today! https://www.on3.com/join   Watch our show on YouTube! https://youtu.be/FX1GkOAZfCk   Hosts: Andy Staples, Ari Wasserman Producer: River Bailey   Interested in partnering with the show? Email [e-mail] Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On today's episode of Andy and Ari on 3 presented by BetMGM, new Oklahoma State coach Eric Morris joins the show. This guy has recruited a bunch of great quarterbacks in a lot of non-traditional situations, including his current guy. But he's also got, I don't know, Patrick Mahomes, Cam Ward, John Mateer, Baker Mayfield in his past. But Drew Mestemaker, the quarterback who came with Eric Morris from North Texas, Oklahoma State. one of the more interesting stories of that bunch because he never even started a high school game at quarterback. Eric Morris will explain how he unearthed another gym at the QB position. Plus, Tennessee coach Josh Heppel breaks ranks with his conference

and says he would be in favor of a 2014 playoff, which of course is the model favored by the Big Ten. R&O will break that down. Why would most coaches want a bigger playoff, we will explain? Also, Ari had a fun debate on the Crane and Cone show with our friend Brooks Austin, the Big Ten versus the SEC. Who's the deeper conference? Whose schedules more of a grind?

We will talk about it all on today's episode of Andy and Orion 3 presented by BetMGM. This show is presented by BetMGM, and there's no better place to be during March matchups than Las Vegas. This year, college basketball fans can win a VIP trip to the Court of Legends event featuring the Cavender Twins. Simply place sports bets and your position on the leaderboard will determine if you win one of the 25 grand prize packages. Just sign into your BEDMGM account, opt into the promotion, and start placing sports bets of at least $10 to climb the leaderboard. Make this March 1 to remember, join the Court of Legends leaderboard and make it legendary. If you haven't signed up for BEDMGM yet, don't forget to use it. code CFB, that CFB is in college football, to claim your new player offer worth up to $1,500 off your

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rewards are non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire in seven days in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and hotel. Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use the bonus code CFB and get your $1,500 first bet offer today. Welcome to Andy and Ari on 3 presented by BetMGM. Fun one today. Great interview. New Oklahoma State coach Eric Morris joins the show. He comes from North Texas. He brings a lot of Louis luggage, including quarterback Drew Mestemaker.

Ari, fun story about how he found Drew Mestemaker. more accurately how Drew Mestimaker found him. Yeah, and what a piece to bring with him to Oklahoma State, right? I mean, I love having these coaches on, Andy, at this time of year, because you get to really hear some of the origin stories. I think everybody's fairly familiar with Mestemaker's lack of reps at quarterback before he started for North Texas last year. But then you watched him play and progress throughout the season.

And, you know, you might find his name on some lists of top quarterbacks in college football heading into next year. So, you know, Oklahoma State was in a pretty rough situation. I think at this time last year, I remember profoundly our discussion with Mike Gundy at Big 12 Media Day last August and coming away from that feeling like things weren't probably going to go well. And now there's a fresh start with a new quarterback and a new coach and it was really cool to visit with him.

I think they're going to bounce back very fast under Eric Morris, specifically because of what he brought with him from North Texas. They're going to understand what they want to do. And I do think they're going to hit the ground running in Stillwater. Here is Eric Morris. We are joined by new Oklahoma State coach Eric Morris. And we'll take you behind the curtain. We were just talking to Coach Morris about all the gear these coaches get.

And, you know, Wink Martindale put his gear on Facebook marketplace when he stopped being the D.C. at Michigan. And Eric, how do you decide what you're going to wear on game day? Because we had the whole Kalin-Dabor had the lucky black hoodie until they lost. He couldn't stop wearing it. How do you decide what's your game day fit? Yeah, I'm pretty simple in all that stuff. So I think I'm a dream for all the equipment managers. Our guy here, Wes, came up, and that's what he first started working on.

Like last year, I think they had two or three different, you know, game pants, different colors. And, you know, I had to pick out all this stuff. I'm like, Wes, like, they pay you to do this job, right? Like, you're the equipment manager, right? I was, I'm going to make some decisions on it. What do you want us to wear? So, first of all, my only request was black pants only. Like, I think when you get into the silvers and even the khakis, I think it's a bad look.

I think black, especially with our bright orange, looks good with everything. So my one request was, let's do only black pants, which made him really happy. He only had to order one set instead of three. And then I'm a big, I wear what everybody else wears. Like, I'm not a coach that needs something different or want to stand out. And so nowadays, I think nowadays you, when you get to your locker, you have a polo, you have a short sleeve, just kind of T-shirt, or you have a long-sleevee shirt. And those are the three options, and everybody wears the same thing.

We look good on the sideline. But I'm not superstitious in any way. I've never been superstitious. I've played a lot of sports in my life. My dad was a coach growing up. And I've never been the, you know, having a lucky pair of underwear or anything like that that's the three guys have. Just whatever they give me, go out there and that's what I wear. Yeah.

You know, you mentioned before we started here that you're kind of a wear the same three things over and over. And I am too. And my wife used to get mad at me. And she goes, why do you wear the same thing, same three things over and over again? I was like, because it's the only three things that fit me, Brittany. Like, but when you when you get to a new place, do you? you get excited about gear, fans like gear, I like gear, everybody likes gear. Like people are fired up about who you're sponsored by.

I mean, what is it like for a coach, you get an entirely new wardrobe? Yeah, I mean, especially as a head coach now and at a P4 program, you know, here, I have my own locker room, which I don't love, you know, and I think my coaches probably like it because it's their one time that they're away from me and they can probably, you know, they can vent a little bit in there without being in there about, what's going on good or bad, you know, after a practice or touch. But, yeah, it's kind of lonely in that locker. I first showed out, like, I had this huge rack of clothes. I mean, I'm talking about more clothes and bags and shoes and hats. And really, for me, like, I want to find the one hat that

fits me really good. And by the end of the scene, then, you know, it's going to look nasty and sweaty and all the things. And like you said, you know, I have my two or three things that I wear and I'll wash them, put them in the thing, and that's kind of what I'll put on repeat. And so I know my family, I got two brothers, like, they love the gear. I got a lot of family and friends that come into town that are going to continue to support what we do here. And so I'll bring them into the locker room,

and they kind of have, you know, it's like their own little personal shopping day, you know, to, hey, they can pick whatever they want from like, I got these three here from here on out. Like, that's all yours. So it's a long way from incarnate word. You were the head coach and incarnate word FCS school in San Antonio. Your first day of spring practice, you guys didn't have mouthpieces, right? Yeah, so, you know, I've had a great, you know, I have great mentors in this sport.

When I was at Texas Tech, you know, my coach is there. I mean, my position coaches were Lincoln Riley, Dana Hoverson and Sunny Dykes were my three position coach. Art Biles was there. Dave Irando was there. Ruffin McNeill was there. So I have so many mentors. in this business and really when I thought about taking that job as either that or going to be a coordinator, you know, at a G5 spot, at a couple spots I was looking at, knew I needed to get away with, I mean, away from Coach Kingsbury and kind of do my own thing.

Just being the coordinator under him, I needed to branch out and start being able to make some decisions. But everybody told me I was making career suicide, all my mentors. I should not go to incarnate word. You know, they had no history. They just started up, Division I program. They were Division II before. terrible, terrible facilities, no resources. And so really, when people tell me I can't do something, I've always had that mindset. I'm kind of like, all right, watching me. I'll show you otherwise. I was that way as a player.

Everybody thought I was too small and too slow to play in the Big 12. And so I've always kind of had a chip on my shoulder and people tell me that thing. I take it as a challenge. And so, but it was good for me. Like, I had to learn how to do so many different things and learning how to evaluate. I evaluate transcripts, learning how to, you know, figure out the budget at the place, learning how to, you know, figure out what we're going to do in the equipment room when we don't have a full-time equipment guy who's going to do the laundry.

And so it allowed me to use my brain in a lot of different ways. And ultimately, you're finding out solutions to problems. And I think that's helped me along the way. Like, every stop I've had, like, although my problems are different, like, I have to be really intentional on the way I'm going to solve these problems. And no problem too big, no problem too small. Like we have an organization to run here. And most of my day usually resides around figuring out solutions to problems.

Eric, when you took this job, you're obviously replacing a lightning rod in the sport, one of the biggest personalities that we've ever seen, somebody that is beloved by just about everybody who watches college football. You know, we've had coaches on the show and have talked a lot about coaches who are stepping into places that have had such large figureheads there previously. What's it been like to step in and you seem a little bit more low key? What's it been like to be there? And have you had any interactions with Coach Gundy and what's the transition been like?

The reception of this place has been incredible. And I'm from a small town and that was one of the things that drew my wife and I to this place is I think we wanted to raise our family in a small town like Stillwater. And so just how genuine these people are, how much they love the Cowboys. We're the only show in town. I mean, obviously football is king in the South. And, you know, just to watch this fan base be kind of rejuvenated. And listen, like, I've been in the Big 12, you know, for the past, you know, 20 years, basically, you know, I guess 10 of those years as a player as a coach.

And so I saw firsthand, like, what Mike did here in the atmosphere that they created and Boone building these facilities and the, atmosphere, the players that have come through here, all the bowl games, you know, the Big 12 championship in 2012. So I know, like I knew what I was stepping into, right? And just the utmost respect for what Coach Gundy was able to create here in so many different levels. And so, and I had people, you know, when Coach Holberson came here, Doug Mitchell was a friend of mine that we've studied in the offseason for years in the past. So I've had a lot of friends that I've come here and just talked so highly about how they love Stillwater and the people and how genuine people are. So it's been incredible for me and my family so far.

Obviously, I think you always want to respect and honor the traditions that have been set here. But at the same time, like, you know, I know I was brought here for a reason. And I think college football has changed so drastically in the past, you know, five to seven years with the transfer portal and the revenue share and the NAL. And there's so many different ways to create these rosters right now. I think that I'm up for the challenge and we've got to find some new ways to manipulate and get this thing back on track. One way to do it is good quarterback play. And I've been dying to ask you about how you evaluate quarterback. So I'm going to go through a little history lesson for the folks here.

But you were one of the first people at Texas Tech to say, hey, this Mahomes. kid. Dad plays baseball. He's pretty good. We should probably consider recruiting him. You're an incarnate word. Cam Ward runs a wingtie, comes in throws for you in camp. You're like, this guy could be a college quarterback. You're Washington State. You land John a tear. Now you have Drew Mestemaker who came with you from North Texas, who did not start a game at quarterback in high school and is just lighten it up at the college level. how do you do it differently? How do you look at it differently than other people to see the things that they can't?

So, you know, I was very, very blessed as a young coach in this where at Washington State for Mike Leach, he was a head coach. You couldn't go out in the spring and recruit quarterback. So I was put in charge of that. So I sat in rooms with Mike and we watched tape and what I was looking for. And then we like to get into the quarterback's mind. Like there's a lot of things, you know, the men. capabilities that they have, how fast can they process information. And so, you know, just throwing the football is such a small part of this. And I think, you know, there's people all over the nation

that are training these quarterbacks from, you know, five years on. And you go out there and throw on air, and there's a ton of good throwovers of the football all over America. So we'd like to dive in a little bit more and figure out, you know, what their competitive character is. We love kids that can play other sports. And so, and then right after that, I went with Cliff Kingsbury and he also was the head coach and couldn't go out in the spring. So and Cliff brought more of the technical stuff. I mean, he had just been, you know, Drew Breeze's backup, Tom Brady's backup, like he had been in the minds in the room of some of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. And so I kind of had two different ways of

looking at it from Leach and coach Kingsbury. And so, you know, when I got to go out and see this, like there are different traits we're looking for. And so, you know, I will take some of the credit for all those great ones you name. Now, Drew's going to be a totally different story. Like, I mean, we went out, like I recruited Baker Mayfield, you know, went and watched him, not only play football, but played baseball, saw his competitive character, watched the way teams rallied around him, saw him process information. Same thing with Patrick Mahomes. We recruited a receiver actually the year before, a year older that came to Texas Tech. So we had seen Pat played for two years and then we went watch pat you know he'd drop 35 in basketball and then you know

he'd throw a no hitter and hit two home runs in a baseball game and so I'll take credit for those guys john mater I actually offered john playing shortstop like I watched him you know all this tape and all the thing going on but then I actually pulled the trigger at Washington state uh watching him do drills at shortstop for a whole entire day um and so uh Drew was just I mean a little bit lucky if you would. Like I have a friend of mine who's a quarterback coach. Mahomes as quarterback coach. Jeff Christensen called me. It was spring ball. And he said, hey, I got the next, you know, NFL quarterback for you. I said, perfect. I said, you know, what is he going to be a junior? And he said, no, he's a senior. And I said, do you have a walk-on spot? So I said, come on, Jeff. Like, you,

you want me, there's a walk-on that's going to be an NFL guy and you're this convicted about it. And so then I said, okay, well, send me his tape and we'll watch him today and see if we're We want to take him. And then he goes one step further. He's like, yeah, that's the thing. He didn't start in high school. He plays safety. And I'm like, Jeff, like, what are we talking about right now?

Like, how the heck are you going to, you know, say this guy's an NFL talent and he's never played high school football. And so two weeks later, he brings him down and lets him throw for us. And so naturally, like, we loved all the throwing stuff that he did. There's a bunch of stuff we look for, you know, on lower body mechanics, where they put the ball at the bag, no wasted movement. Like Drew has really excelled in a bunch of these things that we look for. So, but at that time, like, I had no clue this kid could process information.

I had no clue of how tough he was, how much savvy had, the leadership skills. Like, so a little bit lucky. And so he comes in as our fist string, you know, really just another arm for camp. So all the way, two scrimmages into it, you know, he had made his way all the way to the backup quarterback. He beat out three scholarship guys. I think it was really good for Drew that Chandler Morris at that point in his career, Drew could sit behind him for a year and watch the way Chandler prepared,

watch the way he kind of watch film, the way studied film, the way we game plan and put everything kind of together. I think it's really valuable for Drew to sit and really watch that and get the backup reps that year. And then now I think Drew's just, it's still crazy to me to think that kids only played. one year in a bowl game in this whole entire football career basically and how fast he keeps getting better how fast he anticipates throwing the football like i mean the kid has just a ton

of like throwing playing i don't know 30 maybe he started 13 games or 14 games now or something i mean if if if your friend was right that's a hell of a call man you don't really see that every day. Two, I will tell you. Our quarterback coach, your coach, Brofrey does a phenomenal job developing these guys. The way we do our, you know, our developmental piece of it,

our film room piece of it, I think is better than anybody in the country. So I think we have done a great job of developing the kid. But I'm not going to take full credit in this one like where, you know, some of the other ones I will take full credit. Well, and you mentioned that,

like as you were talking about offering John Mateer during a day playing shortstop, we showed a photo of him throwing like a shortstop throwing the first base, but as a quarterback. I love those stories of when football coaches go out to other sports and see guys playing other sports and can figure out how the traits compare, how they translate. And you're an interesting case here too because you hit a buzzer-beater to win a

state championship in high school basketball. So Shallow Water, Argyle, 2004, Texas 2A state championship. What did that feel like? And then how did that being a multi-sport athlete kind of inform you as a coach? Yeah, I think my dad was a basketball coach at a small town. So I grew up in the gym. That's what I did, you know, after, you know, from kindergarten on, I walked across the street and went to whatever sport my dad was coaching that day.

And I would stay there for two or three hours during practice and then right home with him. So if it was football season, you know, I was the ball boy. I was chasing balls around. If it turned into basketball season, I'd go into the gym and rebound for everybody. And so I've just always been around sports. And mainly the gym, though, with my dad being the head basketball coach in the summers, that's all I did. And so thought I was going to be a basketball player and had some scholarship offers to play basketball.

just really wasn't tall enough and didn't see a future, you know, for me to do it. And there's a guy named Wes Welker that was my size and dominating slot receiver position at Texas Tech at this time. And so, you know, great, you know, just memory, core memory for me and my family to be able to hit that shot as my dad being the head coach. I think it's something that will always be at the top of the list, sports-wise accomplishments for me. But I think you get so much spatial awareness. And I think basketball in particular, particular, like, if you having to be able to dribble and keep your eyes up and see space and see people, I think you can draw so many things as a quarterback from that. And I think Mahomes is a great

example of that. And then, you know, Cam Moore, same thing. I mean, we wouldn't offer him after watching him play basketball, all-time leading score at his high school at West Columbia high school. And then, too, I always like to see the way these quarterbacks respond and interact with their teammates in sports other than football. It's hard to tell those things in football because they have a face mask on and you're so far removed. You can't see their personal interactions and their leadership traits sometimes and how they respond to adversity and are they cool, calm collected. And so I think you can get a lot about reading the person and their leadership styles and their interactions with their teammates in basketball and baseball just because

you're physically able to see those reactions. Coach, how much does the ability to bring a guy with you like that give you a head start and a new job? Yeah, I think it's huge for us right now. And, you know, this is the first time I've coached the quarterback in consecutive years. And like since Cam Ward, I guess, when we took camp to Washington State. So almost another coach for us on the field. You know, we have 23 players that have played for us and been in our, in our building at some point.

You know, there's a couple guys that transferred. One went to Kansas two years ago from North Texas. You know, one went to James Madison and so are coming back on board with this. And so I think as you're installing your culture, like these guys know what to expect on a day-to-day basis. They know the verbiage. They know the lingo. And so when you get in some of this stuff, I think there are extensions of the coaching staff out there. And really being able to implement offense, defense, special teams, the way we practice.

I think it allows us to have a leg up and just get things installed faster, right? And obviously, having 81 new guys on the team right now and bringing in new systems, like for us to be able to expedite some of this stuff is going to be really important for us right now. And so we've been really intentional about using those guys as an extension of the coaching staff. When we're doing walkthroughs, I mean, it's a thing where even the defense aside, you know, you know, Ethan Wes Locks, he was a starting linebacker for us the last two years. Like we can allow him to coach some of the younger guys while we put more of an emphasis on some of the new guys that we have and split them up a little bit. And same thing like Drew with our terminology, our verbiage.

I mean, everything is so much sharper and faster. And so, yeah, I think it does give us a huge advantage. So before we let you go, I got to go back to the hoops thing because you mentioned you had some scholarship offers to play basketball. For those who don't know that Eric's height starts with a five, you've got to be really, really, really. really freaking good. If your height starts with a five and people want to bring you and give you a free education,

play basketball, I say that to say this. You can still shake all those guys down that are on your team right now, right? You can school them all, can't you? Yeah, so when we do basketball stuff in the summers, I still win all the shooting competitions. I'm still pretty competitive.

And so I've moved a little bit to ping pong. I haven't lost in two years in ping pong, both at North Texas and here. And so I think anytime anybody wants to challenge me and those there and now, I'm getting a little bit older. I just turned 40. And so these guys, I mean, my DNA isn't what it once was. And, you know, father time is catching up on me a little bit.

I can't twitch as good as I once could. And so I'm more of a shooter right now. And then I've taken most of my games to the ping pong table and I can still dominate the table pretty good. Eric, when you are in a new place, how much does what you learned about their capabilities, both financially and roster support-wise during the interview process come to life

and how much do you have to learn on the fly once you get there? Yeah, I think, you know, anytime you interview somewhere, I think everybody wants to tell you, they're trying to sell themselves, right? And they want to tell you about all the good things. And that's everywhere in the country. And I think it always takes six months to really get somewhere and really figure out,

you know, in detail the situations that are going on internally, externally, to really gain relationships with your athletic department. Now, I have had a personal relationship with our athletic director here. We worked together at Texas Tech. So I think that made me feel a lot more comfortable about what I was stepping into.

I thought they were really, transparent about where they were and with, you know, the financial aspect of it and where they thought we needed to get. And so for me, like, I always take these as challenges. And I know that our donor relation is something that's going to be important here and continue. And I think for a school like Oklahoma State, you know, the last couple years, you know, hasn't been great here for them. And these are times that they have, you know, there's been some people that have stepped up financially. And ROI is like a real thing. Like you're talking about some of these. donors that run really successful businesses and the return on investment is important in all

at college sports now, right? And so I think you've seen people be able to handle this really well and go out there and put in the extra effort because coming from North Texas, I feel like we put together a great roster and we're at the bottom of the American as far as what we were spending last year. And so our coaches did a great job at going out and like we weren't just going to go find the big guys coming, you know, from Power 4 programs. Like, we were okay with going and taking, you know, an All-American from Shepherd Junior College and All-American from Limestone Junior College, you know, a tackle that had started three years at Kent State who had won one game in this career. Like, we were able to go out and pick up the phone

and find these pieces because competitive character is still one of the most important things in sports and especially this sport of football. And I think you have to be, I was never a guy that complained about us not having enough money at North Texas or not be able to compete or build a roster, finance, or people taking our players. Like every year, you know, we're really good on offense and people came and took our players, right? And we had to find ways to go out and find the right pieces of the puzzle. There's plenty of good football players out there. And so I think how you approach it and in the way that you're able to get ahead of it by simply

picking up the phone sometimes and figuring out who are the guys that fit our program that are still internally motivated to play this game and compete at a high level. I think when you do it that way, sometimes you find the right fit for your program and they don't care about the money as much

as the opportunity. And so you know, this will be another unique challenge for us, you know, because naturally, you know, we're a full revenue share operation here. And so you know, are we going to compete with with all these crazy people that are going way over the cap right now. No, absolutely not.

Now we're closing the gap right now. And we have some donors that have been phenomenal and are continuing to find ways to step up. But too, I think people can't just stack these five stars together like they used to, right? And I think it's shown some parity. And now, you know, I think, you know, you build the top half of your roster and you manage and you load manage those guys. and you're really smart on the way you practice. I think it's created, you know, an even playing field. And I think, you know, Indiana,

now I think Indiana is spending quite a bit of money right now. Don't give me wrong on that. But it's shown that you can bring these guys in and create a culture. And it's not just the Blue Bloods anymore that are able to do it because Alabama and Georgia, you know, they have 10, five-star D-Lyman. And, you know, the guys sitting on the bench for them are way better than the guys playing everywhere else.

And so it's a cool time in college football. Do I agree with all the rules and what's going on? And I absolutely not. Like it's so broken on so many levels right now. But at the same time, I think it fires me up to get kids in here that love this game. And I think it's a great time in the Big 12 that we can go in and make some noise right now. Last question. And we always ask first time guess this question.

I'm thinking in the Big 12, we had a really good answer for me. Joey McGuire. So we asked, what is your essential rule for life? And Joey McGuire's rule was, if biscuits and gravy are on the menu, you always order it, which I find to be a great rule. And in fact, I end up texting Joey every time I follow it now. But Eric, what is your essential rule for life? Oh, man, I think just being true to yourself always. I think it's been a cool journey for me and the way I started this thing at such a small school at Incarnate Word. And, you know, for me to be on this path and be, you know, just continue to believe in what I believe. And I think there's so many things that tell me that I need to change now that I'm at a bigger stage.

And for me, it's just like I love to build genuine relationships every single day. And I think that's where we started here at Oklahoma State. And like if it worked at Incarnate Word, I think it can still work here at Oklahoma State, even though, you know, we're playing on a different stage in front of a lot more people right now. And so that's one thing right now, like as we get into it and now I have all these support systems around me, like there's so many people that are working for me. I spend a lot of time managing these, you know, different departments that we have that, you know, have been awesome and are going to help us elevate Oklahoma State in so many different areas.

But still, I haven't got to a place where I feel like, you know, I'm not willing to go in. in and do these little jobs myself too, right? Like I'm okay with cleaning up the practice field after practicing done and helping people out and building relationships. And so that's one thing I've really tried to commit to, especially here with so many people and on a bigger stage or brighter stage is just really stay true to myself and not try to be someone I'm not. I'm still a small town kid that loves ball and loves creating relationships and scoring touchdowns. there you have it the greatest american ping pong players since forrest gump morris i'm i'm i'm i'm i'll challenge anybody to a ping pong game

when you are intact i want no part of it no yeah all right that's a that's a very good rule for life and i think if you look at it at what morris did i i appreciate when you bet on yourself because he's he mentioned you know a lot of his mentors told him don't take that incarnate word job but i it's sounds like he learned quite a bit that can help him even at this level because it's a completely different world incarnate word versus a big 12 school like Oklahoma State. But you also appreciate everything you have at a place like Oklahoma State. Yeah. You know, the thing that I'm most fascinated by Andy is they won two conference titles that aren't in incarnate word, right?

If I'm not mistaken in three years, how much what it takes to win and how you build a winner translates at every level. You know, the TV audiences get bigger, the stadiums get bigger, but when you whittle down all the important factors for winning at your level, are they the same or do they change as you progress? And like that, I think it's a, you know, a question that everybody individually answers. I don't know if coaches change as they grow into bigger roles, but I do think that we have started to see over the course of the past five years plus that coaches who have won at high levels at lower levels who have advanced up to the top level have also fared quite well.

So, you know, if I were an Oklahoma state fan, I'd be pretty fired up. Yeah, Kurt Signetti is the obvious one, but we've pumped the brakes on any comparisons to Signetti because he, again, might be the best coach in the country right now. But we've talked about this with Lance Lippold, who's at Kansas now, who dug them out of a hole. If we're talking to degree of difficulty, what Lance Leipold did at Kansas, getting them back to being competitive,

was a huge job. And I think what he did in Division III at Wisconsin Whitewater helped teach him how to do that. We talked to Kalin DeBoer. He's done it at multiple levels. We're going to see what Bob Chesney can do because he's done it at multiple levels. He just took James Madison in the playoff,

but he coached in FCS, he coached in Division 2 before that. He's going to UCLA now. And so I like the idea of a person who's won at multiple levels, you can feel fairly confident they're going to be able to win at a higher level. Yeah. And we're also heading into a transition period in the revenue share era that maybe Mike Gundy would have fair better in. You know, I think that a lot of the things that Mike Gundy said

towards the end of his tenure was more of a resentment towards the use of NIL at the beginning and then the adaptation of how to use it later on. But now that you have a coach that, you know, is a little bit younger, as more progressive as it pertains to the way that the sport is built, he's bringing his quarterback with him.

I think that there's a lot of reason for Oklahoma State fans to be excited about a potential turnaround. So, you know, one thing we know for sure, Andy was, and this is not a slight at Mike Gundy. I think that he is one of the greater coaches of my generation, and clearly what he did at Oklahoma State will stand the test of time and he'll forever be a legend there.

But I think it's probably fair to say that he was a fish out of water in the NIL world. Yes. And I also think the people at Oklahoma State, the donors understood that. You heard Eric Morris talk about ROI. These are smart people. They're successful business people. They want to return on investment. I think, and this is not something Eric Morris would ever say, but I do think if you look at that situation, they might have been a little reluctant to give that money to Mike Gundy because they weren't sure he knew what to do with it

or that he would spend it properly. And I think you've seen with Eric Morris what he did at North Texas where it wasn't the best resource program in the league but still made them one of the best teams in the league. I think you feel more confident that Eric Morris is going to understand how all this stuff works.

I just don't think that you can progress in college football in 2026 when you have a coach who is downright resentful of the compensation situation. And, you know, even Mike Gundy and his last year, like, after things were going poorly, you remember the comments

that he made about Oregon heading into their game and then, you know, all that stuff. It's like, you can't, you can't grind your teeth while paying your players anymore. Now, I understand why Mike Gundy felt the way that he felt. I think that if you are from an era where things are done a certain way, you get used to that. More so, I mean, I'm sure things are going to happen in my daughter's life and your kids' lives that, you know, we resent because it didn't go the way that we usually thought it should go. But you have to be willing to advance. And I wonder, Andy, like if we're going to pop our head above water, I mean, think about it. In 10 years, how many of the true legends from the previous era are still going to be above water? Like, it's like we are starting a new era, which means that it might be a new skill set, a new type of person, a new type of person, a, a person that never did it the old way at the head coach.

Well, that actually excels in this. Like, I mean, who are the coaches that are still thriving from that old days? Like, Ryan Day, I think you can make the cases, but he's a younger guy who really didn't. Kirby Smart, not as old as you think he is, by the way. He's not. No, I know. Yeah. And I think understand, like, if you listen to Kirby Smart's rhetoric versus, let's say,

Nick Saban's rhetoric three years ago, Kirby never said, you never heard Kirby say this is a mess. So this is going to be awful. Kirby's like, we'll do whatever we got to do to adjust because Kirby knows he's going to work for 20 more years. Yeah. And who knows who knows who the next people are going to be. But like Davosweeney is another one, right? Like a legend of his time, a program builder of all program builders and maybe somebody who belongs on the Mount Rushmore of college football coaches, like literally a legend. thinking right now. Like it's just, it's not like Mike Gundy is unique in that. It's just that this is a change in the guard. And I actually think, too, that it probably requires a hell of a lot more

energy than coaches anticipated too in terms of staying on top of the salary structures and, of course, personalities once the infusion of wealth, you know, impacts them. Like, they're not kids anymore. It used to just be, I remember, like, when I was a first, first year at Beat writer, Andy, and I, like, Jim Tressel was the coach that I first covered out of college. And he always just called the kids, the kids, the kids. Everybody's like the kid. Like remember what coaches just called? They're adult millionaires now.

Like, and like, some of them, yeah. Some of them, yeah. So, um. But think about, think about the first year coaches we've had on this show in the last month. Will Stein, Eric Morris just now, John Summerall, Alex Golish. All of them sound completely different than most of these. other ones. Now, I will say we had Brett Bilemon, who is a veteran head coach, multiple power conference stops. He's the one guy who's like, from that generation,

who's like, no, no, no, there's never been a better time. He's the only one saying that. Yeah, you know, I think, yeah, Brett Buelema is a really good one. He, uh, you know, had Wisconsin rolling in the old days and now he has Illinois back in a place. And I won't type anymore. I'm currently involved in a Twitter argument about Illinois, so I'm happy you brought them up. That's good. But I do want to bring up Oklahoma State one more time and their schedule and Eric Morris's tenure there.

We're going to find out very quickly what kind of job Eric Morris has done at Oklahoma State in this one offseason. They open at Tulsa. If you remember last year, Mike Gundy lost to Tulsa at home. It was kind of the next. nail in the coffin at that point. And of course, there was the Oregon game where he talked about all that Oregon was spending cast many, many aspersions and Dan Landing just sort of laugh them off and then beat

the living snot out of Oklahoma State. The return game is this year. Oregon is coming to Still Waterway 2. And look, nobody's going to expect Oklahoma State to win that game. But I will expect them to be much more competitive than they weren't when they played Oregon last year. Yeah, for sure. And also great ping pong player, huh?

I don't want to want to be in the long end of that. Yeah. Well, I tell you what that that Tulsa game, keep an eye on that one. Because Trey Lam at Tulsa is doing a really good job. So very good young coach there. But Eric Morris is one of those rising stars. And you knew when he went, he was an incarnate word. He goes to be the OC at Washington State.

His quarterback recruiting shops are unquestioned at this point. I mean, if there's one guy in the country, that I'm going to pick and say, go find me a great starting quarterback. I'm going to just let you scour the country to find him. It's Eric Morris. That's who I want looking for him. One last thing to Andy I wanted to say before we move on is I think,

and he touched on it himself on the interview spot there. But like from a fit standpoint where he's from, what he's been exposed to, the conference he spent a lot of time in, the fact that he's a small town kid in a small town environment. I really do think that culturally, like those two programs fit like a glove. And if you can get high level quarterback play right out of the gate there

and turn that thing around, like I think this could be the beginning of something special. So, you know, if you're an Oklahoma state fan, I know it's been a rough few years. Hopefully you guys will find your, you know, equilibrium with the compensation packages and taking care of players and bringing new ones in. And, of course, finding guys too that aren't all about that.

So, you know, good luck to Eric Morrison. it was a pleasure to have him on the show. Yeah, I'm very excited to see what he can do. Now, let us shift gears from one shade of orange to another. Tennessee coach Josh Heipel talked to our Chris Lowe. Very wide-ranging interview. By the way, remember when I said last week that maybe Josh Heipel got Tennessee out of hell too early? It's become harder for him to satisfy everybody because he got them successful as quickly as he did.

You know who else feels that way? Josh Hepple. So I'm glad to think my instincts were right. But that was not what made the news out of this interview. It was Josh Heipel's support of a 2014 playoff, which is kind of viewed as the Big Ten plan, because that's what Big Ten Commissioner Tony Petiti has been plugging for the last, not full year, but that's where they're at right now.

They would like to see a 2014 playoff. Meanwhile, the SEC's official position has been, They would rather go to 16, and if they can't go to 16, they'd rather stay at 12. So this is a pretty big break from conference loyalty here by Josh Hepple, but it makes sense to me because I don't think Josh Hepple is alone. We know he's not alone in the SEC. Eli Drinkwood has already mentioned this. In your mind, if you had to poll the 16 coaches in the SEC and the 18 coaches

in the Big 10 would prefer 24 teams. I think 15 in the SEC. he would. I think everybody but Kirby. And that right there, it's so funny, everybody but Kirby. Oh, everybody but the team that makes it every year already. So I wanted to write a column yesterday about Josh Heipel saying this. First of all, I didn't because all Twitter scares me. Secondly, I don't think he's alone in this. He's just the person that happened to say it. Oh, he's definitely not alone in this. Listen, I've been listening to basketball coaches stump for a 128 team basketball tournament for 20 years.

But it's important to recognize why they want it. Yes. It's so whether basketball, coach, football coach, doesn't matter. The reason a coach would want an expanded tournament is because the coach believes,

and in some cases is getting a contractual bonus if they make the tournament, but the coach believes that they make the tournament, it guarantees they will keep their job. But I will point to basketball, and this is a great time of year to have this conversation, because there are coaches at basketball programs that are going to make the NCAA tournament this year,

and they're going to lose in the first round, or in the second round, they're not going to make it out of the first weekend, and their fan base is going to go nuts because it just depends on where you are in the world. It's a huge tournament, 68 teams. But some jobs, yes, making the tournament is what keeps you employed. Other jobs, you have to advance in the tournament,

to stay employed. John Caliparri, Kentucky is a good example of this. They were ready to run him out of town because he wasn't advancing in the NCAA tournament. He goes to Arkansas the first year, and they go deeper into the tournament, and now it's okay.

This was my biggest misunderstanding, and I think my biggest misfire at the beginning of the 12-team era. Because I was one of the people that was kicking and dragging their way to the 12-team era, and I thought that because we were going to expand at the 12,

that that would confuse people into thinking that just making the playoff was enough because they made the playoff. But what people have to realize is that accomplishment is accomplishment. Rareified error is rarefied error. And you can change the number of teams that get in, but the fan and the administrator and everybody involved

is aware of what an actual accomplishment is. And being the number 18 seed in a 2014 playoff is not much different than finishing number 18, which is unacceptable at Tennessee. So, like, even though you could say, yeah, well, we made the playoff, it's not going to hit the same later if you do this. And I thought that, like, you want to know what the number one biggest example of this was, Andy? What's that?

And when I knew I was completely dead in the water about people being fooled about making the playoff in Penn State two years ago. Penn State made the playoff. Penn State advanced in the playoff to the semifinals. Penn State lost to Notre Dame in the last segment of the game. Yeah, it had the chance to win. They had the ball with a chance to win the game in the closing minutes. Penn State fans didn't go into the offseason whistling that they made the

playoff or one playoff games. They had an easy path and they were fortunate enough to advance in it and make it. And then the second they played a really good team, they ended up losing again. And what was the narrative around James Franklin after that year? It wasn't, we were wrong about this guy. It was he can't win the big one still. remember and like pennsyth fans are like and fans are not stupid in general fans are smart they understand the economies of scale at work here and it just depends on where you are so josh highple's

a good example of this if you if you expand the playoff to 24 josh heipel had better make it every year the crazy thing is like if you're the tennessee coach if they go to 24 your ass is fire if you don't make the 2014 playoff. But you're done. Yeah. So you not only need to make it, you need to advance in it. I think the reality of it is this. If you're the head coach at Tennessee,

if you're the head coach at Alabama, Auburn, any place that anticipates and expects to win big, you have to win big. You can package it however you want to package it. But at the end of the day, everybody knows what winning big looks like. Yeah. Kailen DeBoer won a playoff game this year on the road and everybody's on his butt right now.

Yeah. Because that's not considered good enough at Alabama. Here's the actual truth too. And, you know, River, you can come up here and pop off at me if you disagree with this. But Tennessee made the playoff two years ago. We went to the game. They took their shirts off. They lost by 100.

Okay. But pretty much. Don't you think that Tennessee as a fan base right now would have a completely different tenor or a completely different sense of accomplishment if it was the four-team field they made? Like if it was like an actual real life, like we rocked shit all season, we were one of the four best teams in the country, we got in to an exclusive club and we made it. Making the 12-team playoff was important for them because it was the first time they made the CFP, but it's not the same accomplishment as it would have been.

the previous few seasons. So now, if 12 isn't enough to quell any restless Tennessee fan a few years later, imagine what making it as the 19 or 18 seed is going to do for them in three or four years when that happens. It won't change anything in terms of the coach's job security. And I think, but coaches have tunnel vision. And they just think, okay, I make tournament, I keep job. I make tournament.

That's right. I make tournament. I keep job is such a fallacy of just you're lying to yourself. Yeah, the bigger the tournament, the deeper you've got to go to keep your job if you're at a good place. And don't like, if Kentucky's a seven seed, isn't that like an awful, awful year for them? They're crazy. If we go to the Kentucky Sports Radio message boards right now, if we go to the KSR message boards, it will be a river of flame about Mark Pope. like Mark Pope is going to make the tournament this year.

They're not in danger of missing the tournament, but they are not happy with Mark Pope. Yeah. And at the same time, we have to still acknowledge the negative impacts of this, which is that, and I even think that you're with me on this finally, but if they go to a 2014 playoff,

the regular season is completely diminished. Yes, I agree. And because I think there's a sweet spot because we talked about when they went, went from 4 to 12, how it made more November games relevant. It will make some more November games relevant with the 24, because any team that's kind of near the cut line, their games are going to matter.

But the games near the top, the teams near the top are not going to be really in danger of losing anything. So you take those relevant games away. And I think right now you've got a situation, and this is why I used to think 16 was the right number. I now think 12 is the right number. I don't think they should go past 12. They're probably going to.

But it's so funny to me, Andy. And it's like, I know that you and I talk for an hour every single day. And like sometimes we think very differently about things. We felt very differently about these things two years ago. You were like 12 was good. I was like 12 was bad. And it was like this for a year. Yeah.

But like now after we had 12 and the 24s on the board and fours in the distant past. And I think we both like have finally like gone. Yeah, but I used to think 16 would be perfect. I don't want 16 now. Like I know the SEC wants that. I like 12. And the reason I like 12 is because now there's a chance that a good team cannot make it. A team that could win games in the tournament that might have a real chance cannot make it.

Those are real stakes. That adds drama to the regular season. It's not just, oh, let's get everybody in and let's be fair. the little bit of unfairness there makes things really spicy. Yeah, I mean, that whole Notre Dame Miami debate that we had, the end of last season was really spicy. And Miami was really dramatic.

The entire year after they lost their second game. They were in a playoff game every week because they knew that it was at stake. And not only that, they had to look good doing it. And when they were winning game, like it was, and so was Notre Dame. Like, I think that you are right in that. And also, the one thing that I was afraid of, and this will certainly come to pass is in the playoff,

most teams are worse than 10 and 2, right? You have a few 9 and 3 teams like Texas last year that probably, you know, should have been or were in the conversation to make it. But the second you change it from 12 to 16, you are now opening the door up to the entire second class of the sport. Like if you start comparing a bunch of 9 and 3 resumes and 8 and 4 resumes, that's a whole pool of teams that are harder to distinguish between and have no shot of winning it. So, like, I think that the 9 and 3, Texas, 10 and 2 debate or the 10 and 2 Vanderbilt,

Notre Dame and Bama and Miami debate, those are healthy because you're deciphering between teams that have a chance. All three of those teams had a chance or did win at least one playoff game. but if you in the reason why texas belongs in that debate drumroll please is because they had a really really good strength of schedule and they beat hard teams they deserve to be in that conversation too but if we start opening up the door to like nine and three teams who beat nobody and had easy schedules like you are going to mess up the regular season you're going to water down the postseason product there's no there's nothing to be gained at all on either side of the equation yeah that's why i hope the big ten and and the

SEC can't agree for five more years and we just get to watch them play out this contract at 12. I don't think that's going to happen. Doesn't it feel inevitable that we're going to get to 24 though at this point? Like it's like not just a Big Ten idea anymore. It's permeating into SEC land now. And it just I feel like we're in a collision course. And I don't know how long it's going to take. But like I don't think that there are people who are strong enough in the room to be like,

hey, we don't want to make all this extra money. Like I just, I feel like we're going to have it. Well, it's not even that. it's really what and this is one of the problems with the sport is you should not be worrying about what the playoff format is right now you should be worrying about what the next structure of the sport is like when all these tv contracts in whether the zfp deal the SEC deal the big 10 deal because right now there's you know there's a meeting you know if you read ross delinger's story in yahoo there's a meeting in dallas with a company called smash sports and they've got some university

presidents that have come in and you know a bunch of different stakeholders they're trying to get that sports broadcasting act amended. And that's something the SEC and the Big Ten don't want because it would hurt their power gap. They actually would make more money if that happened, but it would hurt the power gap that they enjoy over the ACC and the Big 12 and everybody else. But doing that would make everybody more money. Doing that also would probably usher in some sort of central governance and central scheduling

rather than this feudal lords doing it all their own way. like how nice would it be if everybody had to kind of schedule by the same rules and good games were prioritized because that's how they make the money. Sad. But you actually don't need to figure out the postseason format until you figure out that part of it. Figure out how you're going to sell the TV stuff and schedule the regular season, then make a postseason format that fits it. The problem with college football and college sports in general,

over the years, is that everybody's like, we have, we've done this thing that has created this problem, and we will tweak this, which will then cause 10 more problems down the line. They need to just tear it down and rebuild it from scratch. You know the other thing that I took exception to? And I don't know, again, this isn't just that hype. If all Twitter, please don't hurt me.

But whenever anybody says, and he said this, we're in a race to get it done as fast as possible. That's not the quote I was going to refer to. The quote is things are changing in college football so rapidly. And we need to do this because the sport is changing so rapidly, right? That was basically the quote. Yeah. Like if you were on a boat in choppy waters,

do you start jumping up and down to make it worse? Like, I feel like because the sport is changing so rapidly, we should halt stops until we get to steady water before we make any, more decisions that will cause the water to sink the boat. Like, I just, I don't know why the rationale is, oh, it's already changing so much. So let's just make it even more change, like more prevalent change. Like, I don't think that that's a healthy way to adapt and to evolve. I think that, you know, funny enough, we've joked about this on the show, Andy, but getting

to 12 actually turned out to be perfect and they got there by complete mistake. Like, they decided to go to 12 before the playoff expansion. I mean, sorry, the conference expansion changed the. sport. Like 12 wouldn't have made sense in not 2017, but it makes perfect sense now. And we finally got to a place by luck that's actually functional. And we haven't even been in it for more than two years before we're trying to mess it up again. Just stop. Just stop it. Like Peter Griffin, just stop. Stop. Well, the coaches are going to want a bigger tournament because coaches always want a bigger tournament. There's bonuses in the contracts. They think it'll

keep their jobs. They're not correct on that second one. But that, that's what they're going to If they lose a game in September, like, I get it. Like, you don't want to lose your fan base in your team in October. Like, I understand the coach's sentiment in it. But the coach's sentiment and the administrator sentiment is very rarely taking into account the consumer sentiment, which is, in my opinion, the most important one. So, anyway, I love ranting about the playoff. And, you know, every single time I see anything about 24, I just got to pit my stomach because it's going to suck. Now, it'll be great.

It'll be football. It'll be college football. We'll still watch it. We'll still talk about it. We'll still argue about it. But it's not the right, the right system. Right. It will take some of the stakes out of November that would, we'd like to keep.

We'd like to keep them. Ari, speaking of debates. I got hiccups there. Did you see that? I saw that. I don't know what happened. Just out of control. Your body is rebelling against you.

Speaking of debates, you had a fantastic debate on. on Crane and Cohn. So Crane and Cone is our new show here at On 3. Jake and Blaine Crane and David Cohn, they do an excellent job. And they're doing a really fun thing where they're bringing on people from different areas of expertise

and having them debate various topics. And so the show on Monday was Ari versus Brooks Austin. And Brooks does an incredible job. He's the film guy, the SEC film guy. If you watch his breakdowns, they're awesome. And so the debate was the Big Ten versus the SEC in scheduling, who's got the tougher grind? The SEC folks say, oh, it's a nine-game schedule.

We shouldn't have to play these tough non-conference games because our schedule grind is already enough. The Big Ten is not requiring power conference non-conference scheduling. They say their grind is enough. They've produced the last three national champions. The SEC has been shut out the last three years. after a long run of producing champions. So great debate. I encourage you to watch the whole thing,

but I want to show you this, because our boy Ari performed really well. And I want to show you the spot where I thought, when I watched it, I was like, oh, yeah, that's my guy. Ari's got it figured out here. But the thing with you is that you're seasoned. You know how to exist in debates with me. And I'll tell you when we're done,

where I would, what I would have beat you over the head with. So let's, I think I know what it is, too. Yeah. Let's go to the debate right now. But you brought up a point, Ari, about this being an emotional argument more than a rational argument for many people. And I do think that is true in a way that it really wasn't when I was growing up falling in love with college football. USC was great and won a championship. Texas won a championship. Oklahoma, Ohio State. And so in 2006 to me, everything changed with that Florida team that my freshman year won a national champion. And then the SEC goes on and wins, what, 13 out of 17? Just an absolute dominant run with multiple different schools.

And now the last three seasons, look what we've seen in an era where you can spend money. And these Big Ten schools are flexing the budgets they have. And combined with Brooks's point that Nick Sabin retired, we have not just three Big Ten champions, but three different Big Ten champions. It's one thing if Michigan and Ohio State do it because they've been the top dogs in the Big Ten for a long time. But when Indiana goes undefeated and wins a national championship, something has changed. So I want to look forward to the future here. The next five seasons, the Big Ten will win more national championships than the SEC.

Yes or no, Brooks, you start first. Man, God, Lord. SDC, it's your side. I know I do, but, like, guys, it's a 12-team playoff that is predicated on health and quarterback play and you're asking me to project that five years out when most of these programs are one year renting their quarterback play. I mean, I can sit here and be a homer, but I'm not. Like, I get labeled this. I think more so, yes, I'm regionally located down here. I am an SEC guy, but I think that's more due to what we've laid out. Like, there are more top 25 teams down here.

The NFL still values it from a draft perspective. Just there are more people down here at a, at a higher rate down to the depths of the conference. But you're asking me to project National Championship supremacy over a five-year span, which again, LSU has 57 new football players, a brand new quarterback and a brand new football coach. Yeah, give me SEC just because I'm a biased hack.

I'll say that, but I don't know that to be the case. Do you see what I'm saying? Okay. I guess if I'm just going to try to win the argument, just tell me SEC and I'll do that. You know what I mean? Brooks, but that's what I mean when I say that something has changed because a few years ago,

You would have rolled your eyes and said, well, of course, how would you even bring up that question? Yes. Thank you. I mean, now I feel like more rolling my eyes and say, of course the Big Ten's going to do a shit. They just ran three off. You know what I mean?

If I want to do it that way. All right. Your answer. Checkmate. You just lost the debate. Because if you would have asked that question in 2015, you would have just said SEC and it would have been, and everybody would have agreed with you.

Like that was just, it was a fact. It used to be a fact back in the day that the, that the SEC, the only way that the SEC wasn't winning the national title is if Clemson or Ohio State did it. But everybody knew that the SEC had multiple opportunities and outs in this debate. And now it's a question where you don't know. And like, honestly, the SEC might win three of the next five and the Big Ten might win three of the next five. Neither of us know that. And that's the beauty of the sport.

But in this debate where most people who like yell at me from the Fine Bomb show say, look at the NFL draft, look at all these things, look at all the history. It's like this is the thing that people aren't getting. Cohn just knocked it out of the park. It is different. It is change and it's more equal now that it's ever been before. And like there is no debate about it. You cannot sit here with the straight face and have a good faced argument and good faith argument about how the SEC is better without using past statistics.

There's no future statistic that you can lean on that says this is an immeasurable reason why the SEC is better than the Big Ten. It's over. It's not it's a new sport and it's a new. And that doesn't mean that the SEC stinks. don't take that. I think the SEC still has a lot of programs that invest a hell of a lot of money in their rosters and their teams and their players and they will continue to win at a high level. But this stranglehold over the rest of the country where maybe Clemson or Ohio State might like have something to say about it once every three or four years is over with. Indiana just won the national championship. And they just beat the team, by the way, on the way to the championship that has four of the top five NFL draft prospects on the board.

If you go look at the talent that Ohio State amassed in the last two years and what they're going to be putting out in the first round, they might have literally had the top five best players in college football and they lost to that team. Like you cannot tell me in good faith why from a fact-based argument that's not based on emotions why the SEC is better. It's a unwinnable debate. You jumped in there at the right time where you're like, the debate just ended.

We're done here. Like, I don't know. I always thought, and I don't know if you know this about me, one of my closest friends as a lawyer, and he makes so much money. And I sometimes wish or think what would it be like if I would have done this. But we used to talk in dorms about both going to law school and starting up a firm together. And now he's medical malpractice attorney who like settles cases for a million dollars after six months of work. And I just like, I can't fathom that.

But in a deposition if you're a lawyer or in a courtroom if you're a lawyer, if somebody says something or does something that snaps you. That's it. the case is over. Like, I felt like that was it. Like, if you get asked a question, if your, if your premise in the debate is that the SEC is head and holders better than the big 10, both in scheduling and in, you know, in the depth of the conference, which I think it's the same thing, really. And then somebody asked you who will win more national titles for the next five years and then you lock up, like, you have lost the debate in my mind. Like, to me, like that, that's clear indication, because if you would have asked me in 2016, who's going to

win more championships the next five years. The SEC or the Big Ten, SEC immediately. It wouldn't have even been a thought process. But the fact that it's even a thought process now shows you that it's more even than it's ever been. Right. And I would have just beaten you over the head over and over with the draft pick numbers. The SEC's had more every year since 2004. 2004 was the last draft that the SEC didn't have the most. And I was prepared for that. Yeah, I was just going to hammer you with that. Now, I personally think that number is going to change. That there's going to be a year here soon where the Big Ten takes over. But until another league has a better per school average and per school matters because the Big Ten has more

teams in the SEC, until they do, that is the one number you can cling to if you're on the SEC side of that argument because as we point out frequently, those NFL people they don't care what conference you come from. They are trying to select the best players because their jobs depend on it. I was prepared for that discussion because I thought that that was the only way that you could win that argument

because I was telling you this, my mentor and friend Doug LeMarie's when I was a kid used to tell me if you think you're going to be in an argument with somebody, have that argument before you have it in your head. And that's kind of like been something that I do mostly in the shower. So you're in the shower thinking about what I'm going to argue.

I love to know that. If you were going to have a debate on the show and I know what the topic is beforehand, I'm having the debate in my mind before we join. As you should, you should know exactly where your weakest points are and you got to shore them up. And I also have to be ready for what the other person's counterpoints are going to be. And you're a very talented debater. And I think Brooks is very good at his job too. I just don't think he's used to being in a debate environment because he's breaking down tape and stuff.

stuff, but I was prepared because I was thinking to myself, if I were arguing his side, what would be the things that I would want to hammer home the most? And the thing that I landed on is the thing that you just said. The SEC has more drafted players on an annual basis than the Big Ten, although I think that number is dwindling. I looked it up. They still have an advantage by eight players in the Dane Bruegler top 100 right now. But I think that five years ago, it was 17.

Yeah, the Dane's top 100 for the 26. draft actually comes out pretty close what the top 100 was for the 25 draft too in terms of players by conference. So the SEC still has, I think, that little lead. We'll see. Because I, like, I want to see the final numbers when they come in this year. But here's where I was struggling because I was having the, the argument in my head in the shower. And I thought, well, he's going to hit me with the draft stuff. I'm ready for the draft stuff. But what is the actual SEC argument for Brad and Macon and everybody whose brain works the same way and everybody on Twitter right now yelling at me from a Missouri standpoint saying that they're better than Illinois. If you too firmly believe that the SEC is better top to bottom and in the middle than the Big Ten and that that conference is way stronger than the Big Ten, what is your literal argument for that moving forward?

And I don't want to hear about what happened in 2007. I don't want to hear about what happened. And the draft numbers are really all you get. yet and you have but but now in that case you have to break them down by school like you have to you have to compare missouri's drafts to illinois's drafts and and yeah and ohio state also had like eight of the 24 i believe so like that is like not a representation of the entire so i i still think the middle of the cc is probably stronger than the middle of the big 10 but i think it's i think it's that the gap is closing quickly yeah or you could make the case that the middle in the SEC traditionally has been and continues to be stronger.

Like maybe Tennessee is better than Maryland, right? Like there's no question. The difference now is the top of the SEC is not as dominant over the rest of the SEC that used to be. Well, and here's the other thing. The top of the Big Ten is literally dominant. Like Indiana, Ohio, State, Michigan, the last three years. It's dominant over everybody.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So if you want to take the middle of the conference argument, go ahead. But then it averages out when the four best teams and the Big Ten are national title contenders. and you don't have four national title contenders. But the SEC's arguing about this is that you have more week-to-week grind, which I get it. I just, I actually think they're coming,

they're becoming more similar than they want to admit. I actually believe that going on the road and playing Illinois in November on the road is no different than going to Columbia, Missouri and playing on the road. Yeah, no, if we're looking at top eight from each league, like, okay, last year, six, seven, eight, and the big ten, we don't have tiebreakers in here,

but six, seven, eight, we're Iowa, Washington, Illinois. Yeah. Those are difficult teams to play. Was Tennessee immeasurably better last year than Washington? Well, like we saw Iowa against Vanderbilt. Iowa Vanderbilt got played,

Iowa won. Yeah. So I do think, I do think it's, in their meaningless bowl game, too. Who? Illinois. Illinois. Yes.

Be Tennessee. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, I don't know. Like, I think that like the results, the draft is secondary because the results are what they are. So, you know, that's to say, though, that I still think the SEC is awesome. Like, I don't, like, I hate being in this position because then I'm like, all I'm arguing for is that the big 10 is pretty good too. It's, it's, it's the internet, though.

If you say something nice about somebody, it means you think everybody else sucks. Like last year. That's the rule of the internet. Van der Bill was legit. Texas A&M were legit. Texas was legit. Ole Miss, Georgia, and Alabama were all legit teams. None of them, though, turned out to be legitimate national championship contenders.

So from a week-to-week standpoint, if you had to play all those teams, certainly. And here's the one thing that I think you can't get around in the Big Ten. The Big Ten is two extra teams, but they've got three bottom feeders right now that are actual wins, if any good teams playing them. You know, Maryland, Rutgers, and Northwestern. Oh, I don't think Northwestern is there right now. I think Northwestern is a little bit tougher out than you think. Purdue would be the other one, probably.

They have some teams in there that have struggled recently. But I also think with the financial shift in this whole thing, too, that in eight years, Purdue might be really good. Yeah, I think a lot of this is the market finding its level. And what you've seen is there were probably more teams in the SEC, because the big 10, it was Ohio State. where they were stacking the talent in the same way that Georgia and Alabama

were stacking the talent. But now that Vanderbilt and Mississippi State are pretty, like I thought Mississippi State was pretty good last year, like for their standard. They got better. And that's the thing that I find very interesting is this is the market's finding its level. It's all these guys who used to go sit the bench

at a name brand school because that's how you got to the NFL. Now we're going, I can make more money and play right now if I go to Mississippi State, if I go to Arkansas, if I go to Minnesota, if I go to Illinois. It's changed dramatically. And that as it continues to find its level, which this is still a relatively new concept. The concept of NIL and the transfer rules being what they are, they're five years old.

Like, NIL hasn't even turned five. It turns five in July. Infant. So it's actually happened pretty quickly, but it's still not done. And I do think because the Big Ten and the SEC both have the most money, you're going to see the bottoms of those leagues. Have some pretty damn good teams by the end of the, by the time the market really finds its level.

Yeah, I agree. And I think that, I think Texas is my championship pick next year. I said it on the show and he goes, well, yeah, boom. Watch the whole show. It's really good. And Brooks made an interesting point that actually helped your argument, but I thought it was a really interesting point, that the Big Ten might have better coaching than the SEC right now. Now, the SEC's just changed out a bunch. And we've had some of those, we've got three of the first year SEC coaches on the show. And I'm telling you, I like them all. I know not everybody's going to succeed. But like, we've had will. Stein from Kentucky. We've had Alice Gulles from Auburn and John Summerall from Florida. Like they all sound like they know what the hell they're doing. Yeah. One of them is going to hit big. And then if they do or when they do, like, I mean, if you think about the coaches, I think that when Brooke said that, I don't know why he did because that was like helping my point. But I'm not sure I agree with it. If you put the SEC list back up, you have some pretty good coaches up there.

I mean, obviously they have so much money. Yeah. Both these leagues. The teams have so much money, they can afford really talented coaches. And they've managed to. Clark, Lee. Yeah. You just mentioned Northwestern, Ari. Who's Northwestern's offensive coordinator? Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly. Like, that's crazy. Which, by the way, might be for a year. I don't know. Like that, that guy is. You think so, doctor? Yeah. As transient as they come.

He was Ohio States for a year or so. What a national title under his belt, though? Maybe he's the answer. but yeah they they have the most money but i think like from a coaching standpoint i wouldn't say that the big 10 unquestionably has an advantage there i think that if you go look at what the i mean josh heppel's a good coach mike elko's a good coach carrie smart gail and abhor i mean you go down the level uh they all have pretty good coaches i think i think it's hard to win in both of those leagues you better be awesome not just like you can be a good coach and still

lose in those leagues well here's the actual reality of it even the coaches that fail are good coaches Yeah. You don't get to that job at that level. Yeah. Like I don't think that Billy Napier is a terrible coach. No. It didn't work out for him. But like he didn't get the job because he sucks at his job. He just didn't excel or he wasn't in the right place at the right time or whatever.

There's a lot of circumstances that like lead to you not getting it. Like what makes me. It would have turned into Cam Newton. He would have been awesome at his job. Like sometimes it's that. What makes me cited is this new blood that's being injected like Eric Morris who we had on the show today. Yeah, Will Stein's exciting to me. Like, those guys are going to be doing this for a long time.

And it may be that in 10, 15 years, we're talking about them as kind of the deans of the sport. And we don't know which ones are going to be successful and which ones are going to fall by the wayside and fall back to another level. But I feel like there's more innovation coming now than there has been in a while. And so we may be seeing a shift, which I think is going to be fun. But thank you to Eric Morris for coming on the show today because that was awesome. We continue to make our tour of first year coaches and we're going to try to hit everyone before the off season is out and make sure we get everybody. Because I think there's a good reason for all these programs to be really excited about the hires they made. Oklahoma State, I think should be exceptionally excited.

like Oklahoma State fans should be pumped about what's to come. Mega board Wednesday tomorrow, Ari. We're plowing through these days, Andy. I mean, I can smell football seasons right around the corner, man. Mega board Wednesday tomorrow, Ari. Listen, there's a story floating around as we record this. It may actually be confirmed by the time the show drops. But I'm going to hit that KSR message board hard.

Guarantee you we're going to have something from the KSR message board tomorrow. So we'll talk about that and more. On Mars, Andy and Orion 3, presented by BetterGium.