Andy & Ari On3 - Michigan and Sherrone Moore didn’t get HAMMERED by the NCAA, but we might get hammered later | Urban Meyer vs Kirby Smart | Kentucky Football’s Identity

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

Happy Friday! It's a Dear Andy & Ari episode, but first we have to break down the most pressing news of the day: the NCAA punishing Michigan for the sign stealing scandal. In what has been viewed a minimal punishment by most, Michigan essentially got away with paying a fine and adding one game to Sherrone Moore's suspension. Watch here as Andy & Ari dive deep into this scandal. (0:00-16:50) Intro: NCAA punishes Michigan(16:51-17:51) What Dave Portnoy thinks(17:52-27:54) NCAA's perspective(27:55-49:12) Dear Andy & Ari: Urban Meyer or Kirby Smart(49:13-1:01:26) Kentucky's Identity(1:01:27-1:06:32) Two G5 Bids in CFP?(1:06:33-1:10:26) Annointing Arch(1:10:27-1:14:37) Producer River vs a Mockingbird Dear Andy & Ari kicks off with an incredible question regarding coaches in the last 20 years: Urban Meyer or Kirby Smart? Andy & Ari dive deep into the weeds in comparing the two college football icons. Next, we take a visit to Mark Stoops and the Bluegrass State to evaluate the identity of the Wildcats. With veteran QB Zach Calzada entering the fold in Lexington, what are honest expectations for the program, and how in the world do they turn it around? Andy & Ari dive deep into the Wildcats. Later, a thoughtful fan notices a scenario that could happen in the American conference. Could this conference produce two CFP teams in Tulane and USF? It's possible. To close, Producer River has had a wild week. On his morning walks, a mockingbird has attacked River two days in a row now. How will this war end between Producer River and the mockingbird? Find out here Watch our show on YouTube:  Hosts: Andy Staples, Ari WassermanProducer: River Bailey Interested in partnering with the show? Email [e-mail]

Welcome to Andy and Ari on 3. It's News Dump Friday. That's right. The NCAA has released its infractions report on the Michigan-Connor Stallions affair. And oh, man, there's probably some mad Ohio State and Michigan State fans because they were like, they're going to get hammered. And I actually have seen some stories already since the thing came out saying Michigan

got hammered. Like, Michigan did not get hammered. These penalties are easily solved by being rich, and Michigan is rich. The only people getting hit, the lead to your story made me laugh out loud. Read it. Just tell people what you wrote, please. It was so funny. I said basically the only people who need to be getting hammered Saturday or Friday are the Michigan employees headed a happy hour because they're celebrating that you beat the NCAA.

because, listen, it's a huge financial penalty. These fines, and it is a, what we're talking about in terms of the fines, could go up to like $35 million because the amount of money that a Big Ten school stands to make off the college football playoff starting next year, because it's this year's postseason revenues and next years, like, I think it could be up to $21 million in postseason revenue that Michigan would have to forfeit next year. So I think that that total, because they've got to, they've also got to do 10% of the football budget. They've also got to do 25% of the amount of scholarships that they would have had to pay.

So you're talking about maybe $30 to $35 million, but it's still, it's Michigan. If you ask the boosters, can you give us $35 million so we can continue to double middle finger the NCAA, the boosters are going to go cash check or Venmo? Orzel. So just because I think people are actually, sorry, sorry, this proves like how low class I am because I'm not in that. I don't move in those circles. Those boosters would be doing wire transfers. Yeah. Let's be real here.

Well, if you have certain checking accounts, you get free wire transfers. I don't know if you know that. Again, I'm high class enough. Maybe one day, you know, if we keep working at this. But just so we understand this because I think that this is the number one misunderstanding that everybody has. is that this is the modern day equivalent to what would have been a two-year postseason band in the past, right? Yes. They're doing this financially now because this is the new age of the way that these teams and programs are going to be punished.

And what I think is kind of good about this, and I don't know how you feel about this from your standpoint, Andy, because we haven't really spoken about this. But are you in favor of financially punishing the institutions that even if, even if they don't mind paying it I feel like it's better to punish the institution and the people who wrote the checks to the people who committed the crime people who weren't involved which would be the players

and the fans and the fans telling all the Michigan fans hey your team can't compete in the future because they did this is they check out the problem is this this makes me feel very bad for USC players USC fans Missouri players and fans like Missouri a few years had an academic fraud case

where they cooperated completely with the NCAA. The NCAA was like, this is exemplary cooperation. You get a one year postseason ban. And it's like, what are you doing? Well, I mean, some people get let out of prison for murder when they are nice in prison, don't they? Yeah, but

released. According to the NCAA, this was worse than that. Yeah. But I think that the thing that I have been seeing a lot on Twitter, and I'm sure you have to, are comparisons to the past. And I'm sure we'll get to this. But I think that people have to understand that, you know, this might have been a more significant crime than some of the other crimes in the past that were penalized, you know,

far more harshly in terms of the players and the fans feeling it. But the people who are feeling it are the people are going to feel it in their checkbook. It might not mean a lot. It's like finding billionaire, a million dollars is nothing. But like, I don't know. Like, I mean, do you feel like the question that we have to answer today more than anything is, is this just to you? I don't really care. Yeah, I don't know. But is it like, the thing is they've never had a good way to punish anything

because this punishment really isn't going to affect anybody. It just isn't. And we'll get into the actual list of it. The biggest person it affects is Sharon Moore, who is suspended for three games. And we'll talk about the mechanations of that suspension, too, because basically, every

thing they decided to do the committee did, I think they looked at it and said, is this something that will convince Michigan to sue the

NCAA? And if the answer was yes, they didn't do it. Because Michigan was going to come, yeah, Michigan was going to come

guns blazing if they got a postseason ban, if wins had been vacated, if the championship had been stripped, if more had been

suspended for like half a season, they would have come out just firing. And the NCAA And I think that people lose sight of this is that there would be lawyer fees on both sides. If the NCAA gets sued, they have to be prepared. And also, it would have laid bare how the NCAA's justice system works.

And they don't really want people to see how much of a kangaroo court it is. So this was intentional. Like, they were making sure that Michigan didn't want to fight this at all. And Michigan still might. Like, I'm sure of Ward Manual is probably not pleased today because he's, got to figure out how to raise that money for what they've got to not get in postseason but maybe Ward Manuel goes to bed tonight knowing hey here's what we have to do and then once we do it we don't have to talk about this anymore which I think it's probably the biggest relief

has been two years now here's the biggest issue Andy and I've seen a lot of this on Twitter and I and I'm in the Ohio State atmosphere still because I still follow all the writers and people I've known for my time there and there were a lot of quote unquote insiders in Columbus and I think this is also the case to a Michigan State, but I'm not as familiar there, that we're promising some sort of real hammer to come down. Yeah, those people were stupid death penalty. And I think what they've done is they brainwashed the two fan bases that care about this the most, which is our high state, Michigan State, the thinking that there was some sort of max penalty or something that shows them that they're guilty and that they were going to be stoned to death in public. And

like, they're very disappointed today. But it's their fault for, for, for, listening to people who didn't know what they were talking about. The people who know what they're talking about, the Dan Wetzels and the Ross Dellinger's and, you know, the Andy Staples have been telling you all along what's going to happen. I always just keep coming back to the same thing. And we had a debate on this show about it for 40 minutes like six months ago, so we don't have to do it again.

But the number one thing to me when it comes to the penalty is you can vacate the wind, you can you know whatever the only two things that that would upset the fan base would be postseason ban because that upsets the future okay yep and then also the vacating of wins um in the past tripping of a championship not being allowed to display a championship banner that would have that would have pissed but at the same time vacating the championship or not the people who think it should be vacated will view their championship that way already anyway yeah we've talked about million times. So to me, I think that's significant. I think how you're remembered in the annals of history is important. It would be important to me if I won the Nobel, if I won the Pulitzer Prize

for best journalism and half the people. No, let's give me the Nobel Prize. I want to give you like the Nobel Peace Prize. Is that possible? Okay, give me, in this example, I'll be the Nobel Peace Prize because, and what do you have to do to win that again? I always get confused. What do you have to do? You have to like basically broker a piece between two warring nations or, like, start some sort of social movement that changes the course of human history. So probably not you. All right. So this isn't a good example because I'm just going to get in trouble if I try to make a joke about that. Let's go back to the Pulitzer Prize. If you want a Pulitzer Prize, Andy, for, you know, I wrote, I read a few stories I wrote. For some of my restaurant views, I'll take it. Yeah.

You know, one of your best stories you've ever written, and you know that better than me that you're proud of if you have a I have articles displayed in my house that I'm proud of. Um, and I won a Pulitzer for those. And then 50% of the people thought I plagiarized it, even though I did or didn't. That would kill me. That would be the worst. It would make the award not feel important to me. If I knew I didn't plagiarize it, you know how I'd feel about that? Yeah, I guess you wouldn't care. I'd be like, enjoy my Pulitzer. What? Like, oh, I'm here crying into my Pulitzer. Oh, you don't like it too bad here's my pull it's what what is the entire point of accomplishment the entire point of accomplishment is to be lauded like that's like who else cares about you want

people to respect what you that is not the entire point of accomplishment are i mean i guess money is too right but like no self satisfaction of getting the job done yeah i think in sports being lauded is the number one thing it's brag i don't think so i don't i think if you asked like Zach Zinter from the 23 Michigan team. What was the reason for all that was the point of all that? Andy, he's not going to be like getting praised by Ohio State fans. Andy,

Michigan fans didn't play. Michigan fans didn't work hard. They didn't go to training camp. They didn't get concussions and come back from them. Michigan fans and in sports specifically, the people who root for the team hold on to those accomplishments in the same way the people who participated in the event. So the way that Zach

Zinter holds the national championship close to his heart is very different than Joe Schmoe and Flint. Okay. And it hurts Joe Schmoe and Flint. That's what I'm trying to say. Maybe it was a terrible analogy. Well, here's the thing. They didn't do anything that was going to hurt Joe Schmoe in Flint unless Joe Schmo is a Michigan State fan. So no, yeah. But but the number one penalty, in my opinion, was already levied, which is they have a championship. They waited over roughly 20 years to have one. It was the perfect season. They went 15 and 0. And a large portion of the people out there think they're cheaters. Like, sucks. Like, I think that sucks. You don't think they can. We don't have to go around and

round. The fact is, let's let's review the penalties, though. I mentioned the financial ones, which are the only ones I think that have any, any actual meaning. But again, Michigan's rich. They can stroke a check. Also, Jim Harbaugh, 10-year show cause that will be attached. Well, I guess we'll start at the end of the show cause he already had. which doesn't until 2028. And that basically forbids him from engaging in athletically related anything. So he can't get hired in college sports until 2038. Who cares?

He's 61. He's the coach of the Los Angeles Chargers. He was never coming back to college sports anyway. I am here for 74-year-old Michigan Harbaugh return to Michigan, though. I don't know. Like if you... Hmm. We'll still be podcasting, right?

We will. It will be very funny because they would hire. him. I mean, it's not like they wouldn't hire. He's in great shape. I don't know. There have been old people who do it. Okay. Next one. Absolutely. Okay. Connor Stallions, eight year show cause. So your favorite code breaker slash vacuum cleaner repair repair man, he is eight years banned from college sports. He wasn't getting hired in college sports anyway. So it doesn't really affect anything. You know, he provided us with entertainment, a slightly interesting documentary. I think

He cried in the NCAA Committee on Infractions hearing multiple times. At least that's what I was told. So there's that. But he is, I mean, look, I think Harbaugh should just hire him as the Chargers mascot at this point. Just to further thumb his nose at the NCAA. Kind of like an interesting thing because I have such split feelings about Conor Stallions, the person, because I do think he's smart and like hard worker, obviously.

Oh, I think there's a place for him. I just, it's not going to be in college sports unless he wants to work. I mean, he could come on the show. You can break down film for us. One thing that we don't have answers to, and there's another thing that came out today, and I'm going to let you go through your spiel, and if you don't get to it, I will, that I thought was interesting. Go for it.

If he could come on to the show, the only thing I'm interested in hearing him say at this point is what the vacuum cleaner situation was. That's it. That's all I care about. Has anybody come out with the answer to that question? Yeah. Is it as simple as he was, because there was that LLC that he created with, he's a running back, with Blake,

forum right there yeah yeah sort of i don't know if that was like a money scheme to get to tickets or or if he actually was like a vacuum repair person like i have to know the answer to yeah i i need to know if i have an issue with my hoover can he fix it there's a lot of money in that by the way vacuum there's not a lot of money in that but there is reliable work in that wait wait so the vacuum cleaner thing andy i'm so sorry i'm terrible at this what is the amount of money that you repair your vacuum cleaner before you just go get another one. Like, who's repairing their,

if you have a Hoover and you paid 300 bucks for it, you pay in 110 to fix it? Nope. Or are you getting a new Hoover. Correct. Dyson vacuums are expensive. You might repair those.

Exactly. I think it depends on how much you paid for your vacuum, but here's it. If it has a cord on it, it's cheap if it breaks, throw it away and buy a new one. And the ones with no cords break more off. What's on his porch?

on cords. There you go. All right. Now, let's move on to probably the penalty that everybody was most concerned about at Michigan because it does affect them and the team going forward was Sharon Moore suspension. So they offered up, hey, we will suspend Sharon Moore for the Central Michigan game and the Nebraska game this year. And they hope that was going to be it.

The committee did add another game, but instead of adding another game this season, they said he's suspended for the first game of next season, which almost feels like Michigan dictated how this was done. I know they didn't, but it's just funny because if they'd added another game or two this season, Michigan would have fought it essentially to pun it to next season. So the committee just cut out the middleman and punted it to next season anyway. Yeah, and I also kind of feel like it, I don't know if this is a fact, But my instinct on this year, Andy, is that they probably felt we're too close to the season now

to levy a punishment that they weren't anticipating in terms of the games this year, right? Would you guess? I think they got asked about it. They didn't say that. But I do think that probably did factor into it. Also, the will this make Michigan sue us or Sharon Moore sue us question? No, he won't sue them if he has to miss the Western Michigan game next year, which I believe is going to be in Germany, by the way.

yeah and what kind of suspension is is he got to go because germany here's lovely i think he can go but he can't be there round practice that that is and that is the one key difference they have changed this rule so the games he's suspended for like the two he's going to miss this year he's not around the a lot around the team the entire game week so central michigan week nebraska week he's not allowed to coach them when it's important to remember that yeah go ahead yeah when harbaugh missed six games in twenty three he could coach the team during the week he just couldn't coach on game day yeah you know the one One thing that would have been a real kick in the groin, I think, is if he would have been.

I'm not trying to say kick in the knackers. A real, real kick in the knackers would have been the Oklahoma game this year, considering that's where he went. Well, and that's why they set it up the way they did. That's why they offered those two games. It was specifically to avoid him missing the Oklahoma game. That's his alma mater. It was important for him to be able to coach in that game. So now he's fine.

I'm sure he doesn't like getting suspended for another game, but it doesn't really hurt. them. They're going to beat Western Michigan. It's not a big deal. So Michigan got essentially everything it wanted out of this. I think if you'd given them a wish list, it would have been no postseason ban, nothing vacated, minimal disruption to Sharon Moore. They got all of that. Yeah. And then the financial aspect of it operates in the shadows and the fans don't feel it. You know, a funny anecdote. Speaking of fans, how about Dave Portnoy, the founder of Barstool, noted Michigan grad, He's actually going to be on Fox's big noon kickoff now, sitting next to Urban Meyer saying things like this. Michigan, $20 million, like we give a fuck about $20 million.

$20 million is astray money, bro, for us. That's like, what, one quarter, Bryce Underwood, we don't care about $20 million. There, this explains why the financial penalties don't really matter, though the NCAA seems to think they do. The people involved in the hearing think they do. $30 million is still $30 million, $35 million. Like, if they have to pay it, someone's got to pay it. It's still a substantial amount of money. Let's hear from Norman Bay, who was the hearing officer.

He's a partner at a law firm. He was on the committee on infractions. Here's him explaining with a straight face that these penalties are serious. Very, very, very, very serious. Michigan's repeat violator status coupled with. its level one aggravated case classification are sufficient grounds for a multi-year postseason ban. However, the panel determined that a postseason ban would unfairly penalize student athletes for the actions of coaches and staff who are no longer associated with the Michigan

football program. Thus, the panel determined that an offsetting financial penalty is more appropriate than a two-year postseason ban. In addition, previous cases have included scholarship reductions as part of the penalties. However, given the recent shift from scholarship limits to roster spots, the membership has not yet determined whether roster reductions should or would replace scholarship reductions. Therefore, the panel opted to prescribe an additional financial penalty equivalent to the value of the scholarship reductions that the panel would otherwise have prescribed. The penalties the panel has prescribed in this case are extremely significant. The total financial penalties in this case will result in a multi-million dollar fine.

Yeah. A USC fan is going to watch that and go, okay, where was this common sense when the Reggie Bush case was like four years old at that point, five years old, five years since Reggie had played, and you just were like, oh, two year postseason ban, let's cut some scholarships. Like, where was this compassion back then? Yeah, there's a lot of USC fans pretty upset right now because they're, you know, the Reggie Bush stuff and, you know, there's a lot of, you know, penalties that were pretty substantial in the old confines of the rules for lesser violations.

You know, the one thought that I wanted to get to, Andy, too, on top of the penalties that I thought was interesting was the revelation of Conner Stallions being at the Central Michigan game and, like, they finally confirmed. Yes, they admitted it. Oh, sorry, one more thing. Okay, go ahead. Do you know what Connor Stallions called his group?

No. The group engaged in the filming of games. Hold on, here we go. But the intent was clear to gain a substantial, competitive advantage. You don't put together a network of individuals called the KGB that records what they call dirty film, where the cost of doing this is in the tens of thousands of dollars over three seasons unless you intend to gain a competitive advantage, a substantial competitive advantage.

He called it the KGB. It was revealed today, which was my... my suspicion, too, that he was there aiding Central Michigan and helping call plays and read signs. Yes. And that he wasn't there. It wasn't so much of stealing Michigan state signals to use for Michigan. It was to help Central Michigan call plays that night. Is that not a violation of rules for Central Michigan? Like, are they going to be separate case though? Yeah. So they're, they're probably going to be on the hook for something. Like, it's just a marriage. It's just miraculously Jim McElain resigned. I don't know why. Yeah. But that.

They fired their QB's coach. Who could imagine why? Do you think, Andy, that that was amongst the most egregious actions of the entire thing? I think it was the funniest. Yeah. It was absolutely the funniest. I remember when they were like applying facial recognition software to the person. I just remember going through that.

When I first heard what had happened, this is that the day it came out, a bunch of us got tipped off kind of all at once. and I'm on my YouTube TV because the glorious thing about YouTube TV is you can record every single college football game that happened in the entire season and so I'm like, oh, I have the recording of Central Michigan, Michigan State. So I went and found it.

And I'm just like screenshoting every time I thought it was him. That's one of the screenshots right there that we're showing on the screen. You nailed it, dude. It was amazing. You're a pie going after the cage. GB, dude. Like, look at you.

KGB. Wow. Does that make me the CIA? How does that work? So we have been very lighthearted about this. And I think part of this, for me, at least, is relief that we probably don't have to talk about it again until 2026 when we're doing the show. The funny thing is as we do this, the comments are just a river of flame as Michigan and Ohio State fans argue. I do think, too, though, that like we are turning off a segment of people who wanted us to be like this is bullshit. of course i think we're turning off a segment of people who wanted this to be a serious day um and i think that like the scandal is so and i just keep coming back to the same thing what should be punished the intent or the outcome um the intent was terrible like but also hilarious it's like such a unbelievably weird that is part of the problem like if you're someone who is very

mad about this because you root for a certain team or root against a certain team, it probably pisses you off more that the rest of the world who doesn't care about who wins in your rivalry, thinks this is so funny. Because it is, it is objectively one of the funniest scandals

in television history. Because this is the thing that I struggle with. The Houston Astros cheated, right? Like they just absolutely cheated in the game. Banging on trash cans also hilarious, though. It was kind of funny, yeah. But like they They are viewed more as cheaters than the Michigan team, probably from the general public, right?

No, I don't think so. I think it's probably about the same because I don't care about the Astros either. But if you found out a team did something to legitimately cheat and they won because they cheated, I wouldn't think that's funny. I don't think. I think this is always going to be funny. And here's the last part. If we found out that Michigan was cheating after the run they went on, I think I would be more upset about it. But I think it's interesting that you brought that up. So there was a question about why they didn't have to vacate wins.

And that is something that Norman Bay answered. His answer was very interesting. First vacation of records is only in play when there's ineligible competition. that was not a factor present in this case. And so, you know, it was not a penalty, in other words, that could be considered, and we did not impose it. So Kay Norton, who was also a member of the committee who was on this call to, she's the former president of Norton, Colorado. She said that also because they acted so quickly and began investigating so quickly, And clearly the scheme stopped with half the season to go,

and they beat, you know, Penn State and Ohio State without, clearly without that as an advantage. You would look differently if we found out after and all these people played and Carbaugh coached and we found out about the scandal, like in the summer. Well, it would have put that on the table. It would have put the vacation of wins on the table if we'd found out after. Because everybody that they beat of substance

on the way to the national championship occurred after we knew. what was going on. And that to me, like they, I don't think, and you could be the biggest diehard Ohio State fan on the face of the planet, I don't think that you can look in the mirror and be honest with your stuff and say the reason why Ohio State lost in Michigan that year was because of this. Well, I think the reason this hurt so much for Ohio State fans is this came out. Harbaugh did get suspended.

Harbaugh did not coach against them. They had a team that was probably Michigan's equal in terms of. talent. I think that's a fair statement, playing as an interim coach, and they still lost. At home. And the other thing that's painful for them is that they want an explanation or a tangible thing to grab on. The game is at Michigan. They lost at home to an inferior Michigan team last year. That was last year. Yeah. All the losses are running together. Yeah. But I think that they want something to latch on to as an explanation for how the rivalry flipped. And they don't want to take responsibility for it. Right. It doesn't, they don't want it to be a bad.

Michigan beating them. They don't want it to be about what they're not doing. They wanted to be about what they did. Which, look, they just won the national title. So they shouldn't be all that sad. My guess is if Ohio State continues to play the way it's playing and recruit the way it's recruiting, it will strike back in the Michigan rivalry as well. Yeah. Andy, a little anecdote. This is where I am right now, going back to Texas tomorrow morning. But I was walking back to the hotel before we started recording this. and I saw two Michigan fans. I'm not making this up.

One was wearing the one with the Wolverine with the little hat shirt and another person had a polo with a block M on it and they just didn't say anything and slapped hands and kept walking. And I don't know if they were celebrating like, hey, this is a joke or hey, we're both Michigan fans.

You know what they're about to do, Ari? Get hammered. You're about to get hammered. That's right. You're going to get hammered too. But before you do that, we've got to answer some questions. So next up, dear Andy, dear Ari, your questions answered.

Also, after Dear Andy and Ari, an update on the murder bird that keeps attacking our producer, River Bailey. That's next. All right, Ari, it is time to open the mailbag. It is the best part of our week. It is when the wonderful viewers, listeners, readers chime in with some really good questions. love these questions this week. I want to, the one from Andre that we start off with, I've never thought of this before. I've never compared these two coaches before, but I am fascinated to hear what you say. We've both covered one of them as a beat writer, and then obviously we've done a lot

on the other guy as national writers. So this will be really, really interesting. First question from Andre. My brother and I were having a discussion about coach rankings over the past 20 years or so, which brought us to Kirby Smart versus Urban Meyer. I had Urban ahead of Kirby Smart, and he had the inverse. My idea is Urban Myers won at four different programs in different conferences and in different parts of the country as well. His reasoning is Kirby has built a more sustainable program. What's a you?

Bonus question rank Urban, Kirby, and Davosweeney. P.S., I'm stoked about the prospect of my two favorite CFB pods, you two and Josh Pate teaming up. Good news for you, Andre. that front. I believe Josh is swinging by the show early next week. So we reached

out late this week. He says he got some time so we are going to collaborate. That noise. I can't do it. Okay. So that second part,

I thought that the question was really interesting and then the second part put me in a pretzel. So we're going to do it. Okay. Let's, okay, let's start with Kirby Smart versus Urban Meyer, which is a really good question. So Urban Meyer, I'll give you the history, goes from being the receivers coach at Notre Dame, gets hired as Bowling Green's head coach before the 2001 season. So two years at Bowling Green, very successful, two years at Utah, obviously extremely successful, gets hired at Florida, wins two national titles.

We know how it ended in Florida. He goes to Ohio State. He wins the one national title, but absolutely dominates the big team. 10. So where does that put him against Kirby Smart, who has only worked as a head coach at Georgia, but has built one of the best programs in the country, has won two national titles, has played for the national title three times, and seemingly always has a team that is capable of competing for the national title. It's a very difficult question because it's hard to rank things that are great.

It's like, which do you like better, like hot dogs or hamburgers? It's like, I don't know, man. There are also two different, kind of two different generations of coach. The question that you have to answer that's imperative here is, do you care more about diversity and success at multiple stops? Or do you care more about career achievement? Well, and also do we think Kirby would win the same way in other places? Because I think he would. Yeah, I do too.

but I also think you cannot discount that going to Georgia is the program that you have the shortest stepping stone to being what they are now, right? Yes, and that's what, I mean, Nick Saban said that all along. Nick Saban said if Georgia ever got the right coach, Katie bar the door, and that's exactly what happened when they hired Kirby. And I don't, there's a Pandora's box that needs to be opened here and we'll open it at the end. But I don't know if you know what I'm talking about. Let's open it at the end of what.

But here's the one thing that I think having covered urban every single day for almost a decade. When he got to the Big Ten, he raised the standard of an entire conference. And I don't think that people realize that. Like, Ohio State was always great. And Ohio State won national championships before him and now have won them after him. But what he did to Penn State and Michigan State and Michigan State and Michigan. Michigan. In Michigan. Yeah. He broke Michigan. People forget that. Like, he broke the rival. And I think that they rebuilt themselves in a way in order to never do or be like they were against Urban Meyer ever again. Like, yeah. So like from that standpoint, you know, remember the gentleman's agreement crap when. Oh my God. Yes. And people got old mad about like, you can't recruit players if they've been committed and whatever. He's like, you guys better step your, you know, because he brought. SEC North and like the Big Ten you can debate whether or not it's as good as the SEC all you want to

you're blue in your face but having this debate in 2008 would have been a joke right wasn't then and he helped he helped bring it much closer and now you can actually have that debate in part because Urban Meyer coached Ohio State I think you could make the case that he taught northern schools how to recruit I would agree with that. And, like, to me, like, you can count national titles and open, shut it. Like, he has three and Kirby has two. I think Kirby will have more three or more.

This is the thing. Urban coach, you know, Urban had a head start. I don't like, your head start. I don't like the context of, like, you know, who's one more. I think it's possible that Kirby's smart at the end of the road will be in the same sentence as Nick Sabin. I'm not sure that Urban Meyer is. Now, I'm going to open up Pandora's box here, Andy.

Okay. Because this is an important thing with Urban Meyer. Do you know where I'm going with this? Not sure. How do you take into account all the shit that happened around him? Okay. I wasn't even going to go that far. I was just going to say it ended the same way at Florida and at Ohio State with what I would, I think Urban Meyer would agree that burnout is the correct term.

and probably the gentle term for it. Kirby Smart has been the head coach at Georgia since 2016. Like, do you imagine at any point in the next three to four years at Kirby Smart's like, I just can't do this anymore? No. He's still going to be doing this. He's still going to be operating at the same level. Urban Meyer had to stop coaching Florida, needed that year off.

And then he went to Ohio State. And when he left Ohio State, he had to be. to stop coaching Ohio State. It wasn't going to work anymore. If Kirby Smart retired tomorrow, he would be remembered universally as one of the best coaches of our generation. Yes. How do people remember Urban Meyer? It's complicated. Oh, by the way, we haven't mentioned this on the show yet. Urban Meyer is getting inducted into Florida's Ring of Honor this year. They just decided that. As he probably should, right? I mean, they won national titles, yeah. I don't think that Florida misses those days right now.

Maybe they're coming back as soon as this year. I don't know. They haven't been good since he left, right? Or they have been great since he's left. That is the work I would use. They've had good games at times. Yeah, they have a few good seasons, but they have not been great. They've not been national title contenders.

That's absolutely fair. And you're going on, Andy, not to make you feel old. We're going on 20 years. You know, it's been a long time since that those days. I mean, it's 17 if we just do the math. So, you know, burnout is a nice way of putting it. Yeah. Kirby Smart also has, I would say, too, that he's operating at a time in which it's harder to be a head coach and to be a dominant one.

I think Urban Meyer. But I would argue Kirby Smart is as intense as Urban Meyer. I just think the fire seems to burn a little more consistently. Winning a national championship in 2025 is harder than winning it in 2014. Agreed. So that, and I think that winning it in 2020. was probably the same as 2014. It's changed now.

So I think that I would say that the two that Kirby won were probably in terms of, yeah, in terms of degree of difficulty, the same as the three as Irvin. Like those, those eras were similar. Although you could make the case that 2014 and 2022 and the other Georgia one were not, were much harder than doing it when he won the two at Florida. Because winning the BCS championship was a lot easier in terms of pathway. Yeah. But what he had to do at Florida and how quickly.

he did it was pretty damn impressive yes um but you said burnout i was thinking more like trouble there was there was there was there was stuff there was always stuff and now kirby smarts got stuff because of the all the driving stuff that that you become a running joke for that mark driving stuff we haven't talked about it much on the show not his driving stuff but he's not in the car you know like urban mire urban mire was directly connected to a lot of the stuff that you know you know wasn't a victim. You know, I don't think that like we should, you know, right, dance around that. So like, you know, and I think that even Urban Meyer, if you were to have him on the show right now, would care deeply about how he's remembered and be kind of confused about how he's remembered. And I just, the success on the field certainly speaks for itself. And I think that Ohio State football is what it is today as a result of Urban Meyer. And I think you could make the case. And this might be blasphemous because of Woody Hayes that he was the greatest. Ohio State coach of all time. In terms of, I mean, I think that Ohio State's program was always great.

It was always good. It was always excellent. It is elite because Urban Meyer went there. He definitely raised them to a higher level than they were at at the tail end of the trestle era. And I think what you said about the Big Ten is exactly right. He changed the way football is played in the Big Ten, which is a massive, massive accomplishment. You can debate because Ohio State.

has endured the test of time that they would have found this way eventually on their own. But he did it so fast. He did it, but he did it. The 2013 recruiting class was the exact same thing as the 2006 recruiting class at Florida.

Same thing. In two months. And they started recruiting it because like, you know, Jim Tressel, beloved Ohio State head coach, recruited a lot of Ohio. Didn't really go national was in Florida a little bit, you know, you know, dipped his toe in Texas and California at times, but he was an Ohio guy. Urban Meyer was like, oh, Alabama has like a commitment from a five-star guy in Lexington, Kentucky.

We're going after him. Yeah, let's go get him. Yeah. Oh, Florida's committee, it has a five-star cornerback committed out of Miami. Let's go get like Ohio State didn't operate like that before him. So, and they operate like that now. And I think that they probably would have hired a coach if he didn't exist at a time that would have had to operate like Kirby Smart. but like the entire trajectory of Ohio State's football program and the conference

it plays in is different because of Urban Meyer. I don't think you can say that about Kirby Smart. So Urban Meyer, Irvineire took the 2011 season off. So he coached for 17 seasons. He was the head coach at the various schools for 17 seasons, three national titles. I don't think we can fairly compare them until Kirby's been a head coach for about that long. so this is season 10 for Kirby and if he wins a couple more national titles

then I think yeah we're probably going to put Kirby over Urban right now I'd say it's pretty much neck and neck because Kirby hasn't been a coach as long I think Kirby unequivocally wins in legacy I think so too it's less complicated with Kirby now obviously that can change over time like Urban Meyer well people don't like kirby smart either but i don't think it's mostly because they don't like getting

beat by georgia no i actually disagree with you i think that i think that kirby smart being the evil empire that georgia is right now does not have the vitriol pointed at him the way the urban did it's that's true it's because it'd probably be like like if kirby smart retires in 10 years he will be like sabin universally respected people hate sabin the way that they hated urban mire okay I don't know if it's because I was in that bubble and I can't decipher it. But like, I think you could. The thing you need to know, all you need to know is that when Urban Meyer coached Florida, Ohio State fans hated him with a passion. When Urban Meyer coached Ohio State, Florida fans hated him with a passion.

But I think you could make the case that more people hate James Franklin and Kirby Smart. Like I just like I don't think like Kirby Smart doesn't feel. The hatred of Kirby Smart is strictly limited to I don't like getting beat by Georgia. I don't like Georgia being better than my team. I think more people hate Dabo Sweeney than Kirby Smart, which is a nice segue to the next part of the question. But I don't think that Kirby Smart has, is catching strays a lot on Twitter from people. You know, like I think that and maybe it's because he's great. But like Urban Meyer at the height of his existence had the fake heart attack stuff and he's a cheater.

And then at the end with the Zach Smith stuff, you know, like his, it is completely different. Like Kirby Smart does not have any. It's so much more complicated than Kirby Smart. Now, Dabo, if we want to throw him in there, I think what Dabo has done at Clemson, and you've talked about this much more eloquently than I have, he brought a program that was not in the club into the club. And he's the only person who's done that in the last 20 years. Which I actually think wholeheartedly is more impressive than what either of these other two guys have done.

I put Kirby Smart as the best coach in the country right now, and I had a lot of respect for what Urban Meyer did. Dabo Sweeney is the only person that has done something that no one else has done in my lifetime. And the thing is if Dabo, like if Dabo can win one now in this era, I think that makes him even better. I think it changes how you have to look at him. But Andy, you have to start comparing him to the Nick Savings and like the among the greatest of all time.

I did get an email from somebody once, though, because I put Dabo Sweeney on my Mount Rushmore when I was at the athletic of college coaches, and people went absolutely berserk, as you can imagine. Just a little bit of recency bias. But again, if he can win one or two in this era. The entire era of college football that he did something that nobody else did. I don't think it's recency. bias. I think it's a fact. But somebody said, are you telling me that Kirby Smart didn't do the same

thing for Georgia? And it put me in a pretzel a little bit. Now, think about that. I wanted to pose that. But here's the thing. Mark Richt had Georgia so much closer to where it needed to be than Tommy Bowden had Clemson. Georgia was right there. It was, again, I go back this, like, I go, I go on the fall, the Paul Fine Mom show in 2015, right before the season starts. I'll never forget. I was, I was at Ole Miss interviewing Laquan Treadwell that day. And so I do it from their little SEC network studio. And I said, George is the best job in college football. I didn't say that.

That's not my thinking. Nick Saban said that. And if Mark Rick doesn't get it together, they're going to have to make some hard decisions. And people lost their minds when that clip got spread around. And again, it wasn't me. It was the smartest person in college. college football saying it. And so I believed it. And he was right. Georgia had everything

going for it, except the guy there was good, but not quite good enough. It's almost like Tressel to Urban Meyer, if we're really thinking about it. You know what I think is really funny, though, that people will call Ryan Day third base. So if you think he was born on third base, then you have to give the triple to urban. Right. But if you don't think he was born on third base, when you think about all the things that Kirby Smart inherited in terms of program stature, geography,

investment in football, learning from the best coach that ever lived, like who was born on a further base? Kirby Smart or Ryan Day, which is a whole other, you know, Pandora's box that we don't have to go down right now. The thing is, Ryan Day now has won a national title. He did not immediately improve Ohio State's lot in life.

They were basically the same team, dominant in the Big Ten, couldn't quite win the national title, that they were in the later years of Urban Meyer. Kirby Smart almost immediately got George over the hump. They're in the national title game in year two. They're knocking at the door every year, and then they finally break through. it would have been a good column and maybe I'll save this but it's too late now you just hit if we

would have said talk had this conversation when we were in uh Atlanta for the championship but like all the shit that Ryan day went through um when it's all set and done for his career I wonder if winning in year was it six or year five was year five I think uh no it was year it was season Six. Season six. Yeah. It would be the best thing for his legacy long term

because he did it with his guys. Mm-hmm. And Kirby also won his first national title in season six. So the similarities are, it's not unfair. I wonder, it's not an unfair comparison. If Ohio State beats Michigan this year and wins the national

title again, does Ryan Day, like, like is he, where do you put him in comparison to Kirby? I think he's, I mean, resumes are almost identical at that point yeah isn't that kind of crazy to think that this is like

should he be fired but remember remember kirby was the one who everybody had their stupid 1980 jokes and everybody's like they're never going to get over the hump they're never going to get it done they're never going to have a good enough offense 1980 jokes did not cut nearly as deep as the actual the actual ailment that ohio state still faces yeah i mean nobody with half a brain was even discussing the idea of Kirby Smart not getting it done at Georgia. Yeah. So, I mean, people made fun of Kirby Smart. That fake punt, you know, I don't know, it wasn't that long ago.

It was a terrible fake pun. But that's 2018, is his third year's head coach. You learn. Like, Urban Meyer was in year one at Utah in his third year's head coach. So Kirby had to learn on a very big stage. and had to have things like that happen. But I think it all paid off. I think it all worked out.

Did we answer the question or do we just have a 20-minute conversation like we were in the car on the way to a quick trip? I think it's a really hard question to answer. I guess I think they're neck and neck now. And Kirby has a chance to surge ahead if by the time he's coached as many, that he's been a head coach for as many years as Urban Meyer was a head coach, if he has a better resume or even an identical national title resume because again he doesn't

have the complications that go with it yeah but he also hasn't done it at multiple places which is also a rung in your cap too like right but he also hasn't burned out and had to leave and he hasn't burned out at a time in which it's much more difficult to be a head coach than it ever was before so great question i also think that dabbo um certainly belongs in this discussion as well I think I agree with your assertion there. I don't know where I would put dabbo in terms of the pantheon, but when you're talking about these three people, you're talking about really accomplished great coaches.

Yeah, these are all-time grates. Yeah. And no question about they are all-time grates. And, you know, it's just one other thing, Andy. I know it's late. Urban Meyer and Kirby Smart kind of did it the same way, which is get the most good players and beat everybody. Davosweeney did it in his own way, too.

Like, that's, I think that's part of it. And the thing is, and this is what I keep coming back to, if he can win it now, the doing it his own way part is even more impressive. If he wins one now, he might be number two on my list of coaches of my lifetime and even beyond that. Like, if he wins another one, that might be fair. Honestly, like, if you really pull back the curtain and look at what he did there, man, yeah and i'm i'm with you on that next question from josh and this is this is a really good one we've asked about you know team identities we've talked about different programs and can they be successful

while certain other programs in their leagues are successful josh the kentucky fan hi wanted to write in regarding program identities and expectations love that you two are reunited i really enjoyed to listen to your show with the athletic enjoy listening to a n a ron three still waiting for a t-shirt with a hot dog on a helmet logo. I actually have that t-shirt because my kids made it for me, but that is the only one that exists. Regarding Kentucky, I think a reasonable floor for our program is to consistently make a bowl game, which would be going three and six against power conference teams and three and O against the G5 and FCS. And a fair ceiling is to occasionally be in the hunt for a CFP bid, either eight and four, nine, and three, or ten, and two. I do not think we hit

our program ceiling under Stoops, if only because we've only had one top 50 offense in his tenure, And I believe we can take a step by pairing the traditionally elite Stoops defenses with a consistently competent offense. While Kentucky fans understand we may never, probably will never win a national championship, we're also not content going six and six or seven and five every season. Our roster building strategy should prioritize selling ourselves as the SEC school for Midwestern, predominantly Ohio and Michigan, and DMV players. We must recruit Kentucky in the mid-south, Tennessee and North Carolina as well. We may not always have the big blue wall level of NFL town on the offensive line,

but UK football does rise and fall as our line of scrimmage talent rises and falls. We should not be a portal heavy program. If only because in the SEC, portal programs tend to have a lower floor, 2004 Ole Miss should be proof positive that. I don't know.

They went nine and three. Floor won that bet. Then programs who consistently dominate in high school recruiting. Our rivals Louisville may find success in being a portal program because they play in the ACC, but I do not believe this is a winning strategy for UK. UK football success also turns on the level of financial investment

It receives relatives, the rest of the SEC. As we go further and further from our 10 and three six-stitchful winning days under Stoops, momentum within the fan-based shift towards funding basketball over football. As someone who loves college football, this is very worrisome. It is imperative we spend at the same level as our SEC peers, all the best, Drew. Oh, I'm sorry, all the best, Josh.

So Josh brings up some interesting things. That was the whole thing. I don't even know if I have anything to add to that. I have a couple. The not having a top 50 off. offense, and obviously that's using total offense, which is not the best stat in the world. But I think it is fairly, it is completely fair to say that the offenses in the Mark Stoops era have not been fantastic at Kentucky. But that's probably because Mark Stoops prioritizes having a really good defense, running out a tempo that does not stress the defense that much, that does not force his defense back on the field a ton.

So I think the lack of a top 50 offense is more philosophical. Remember, two different stents with Liam Cohen as the offensive coordinator, who was a fantastic offensive coordinator for the Tampa Bay Bucks in the NFL, who's now a head coach in the NFL. It's not like there hasn't been coaching talent, playing talent there. Will Levis was a good quarterback. They've had the capability of it, but I think, the way Mark Stoops wants to run his program philosophically,

they are probably not going to have the most explosive offense in the world. Is that fair? I think that's fair. I think that's a fact. Also, the big blue wall part of it, and this is the tragic part, John Shlarman was their longtime offensive line coach. He passed away from cancer a few years ago. When he passed away, it did seriously dent what Kentucky can be as a football program.

because he was special. He was a guy that other programs in the SEC and other leagues actually would kind of cheat off his paper when he identified a player and offered him, everybody else would come in and offer because they knew exactly, they knew he knew exactly what he was looking at

and he was just a tremendous coach and very sad that he passed away. Then you've also got Vince Morrow going to Louisville, you know, the longtime lieutenant of Mark Stoops, who was kind of the guy in recruiting for Kentucky he's now running the recruiting the operation at Louisville, which is obviously, you know, that does directly impact Kentucky.

I have thoughts on Kentucky, and here's the deal. So back before NIL started, I was really high on Kentucky because they had a clear identifiable plan, and they executed that plan with Vince Merrow, who's now at Louisville, and Mark Stoop's having deep Ohio roots. I mean, I wrote a column for the athletic and the Cleveland Plain dealer. It was called the Big Ten killer because Kentucky, at their height of going 10 and three, was going into Ohio and getting the players at Michigan

State in Wisconsin and all the other Big Ten teams were using to feast. The leftovers that Ohio State didn't take out of Ohio they were taking. And they were getting really, really good SEC players out of Ohio. It was during a time in which you could weaponize your geography. And I still don't understand from a geographical standpoint why Kentucky isn't nearly as deep as Ohio in terms of high school talent. It's the South, but Columbus to Lexington's only a two and a half hour drive or three hour drive. I don't know like if that plan is executable at the same rate because the players that were leftovers for Ohio are still very expensive NIL guys. And that has like completely changed the paradigm of how they try to go get players.

And when you talk about. And also like what Josh was saying about where they should get the players from, like the DMV, okay, that is a highly contested recruiting area. That's the D.C. Maryland, Virginia area. Like, do you know where Dylan Stewart's from? He's from Washington, D.C. Where does he go? South Carolina.

Yeah. Shane Beamer recruits the DMV really well. You can never tell when your questions are rhetorical, by the way, or when you're actually asking me or putting me on the spot. But like, yeah, exactly. And like, Andy, what is Kentucky's advantage? Kentucky used to go into Cincinnati and find a high rated three star or a low rated four star that is very good. That was an hour and a half away.

They could sell on SEC football. And like, that was enough. they'd have good relationships with their coaches because Mark Stoops is actually a really cool dude Vince Mero's very convincing guy like I mean they did a really good job there

but like now it's like again back to the Ralph Russo anger question like what is your plan if you don't have the money to spend in football the way your peers do and you can't rely on your geography how do you stop like I don't care how motivated Mark Stoops is what do you do

I mean they do have money they do but it's not you're not using it as a weapon in a way that you can go get players that they have more money than Penn State and Wisconsin? Do they have more money? Well, and I have another thought on this too. It goes back to our discussion about Arkansas a few weeks ago. It's not that Arkansas can't be good ever. It's that it is very hard for Arkansas to be good when Ole Miss and Missouri are also good right now. Kentucky can be good. But it's also hard for Kentucky to be good when South Carolina is good or when Tennessee is good. And the point of this is the SEC can only have so many good teams. The Big Ten,

same thing. And I think that's the question. How many good teams can the SEC support? How many good teams could the big 10 support like for the SEC I think in a given moment eight seven eight you probably have eight good team half the team half the league can be happy without things are going yeah big 10 seven

yeah which I think will grow as these schools with the money advantage they have start to care more about football they might not all ever care like Northwestern and Maryland may not ever care about football the way that Penn State and Ohio State do.

But I will bet you most of these schools care deeply about football five years or now. We're talking about it very deeply. Nebraska, Indiana, sorry, Nebraska, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. Like how many of them can be good at the same time? It's a great question. Probably two. Yeah.

Probably two. I don't want to, this might be a clippable thing. I don't, I don't like to call the clip before I say it. You used to be able to sell, come play in the SEC. Okay. But every year, the Big Ten wins the national title and every year they're competitive on that stage. Sell that too. Memories of these kids that you're recruiting aren't as extensive as ours.

Yeah. I don't know if come play in the SEC to a Cincinnati kid. hits the same way it did in 2020. Or the way it did in 2015 when Mark Stoops was trying to really rebuild that program. It's still great. Everybody wants to play in the, it's a great conference.

But they still have the most NFL draftees every year. But I don't know if a kid's going to pick Kentucky over Wisconsin because of he gets to play in the SEC. Like that thing. Because Wisconsin can say, okay, well, you want to go play for a team that's not one of the better teams in the league and have to play against Alabama and Georgia,

okay, we play against Ohio State and Oregon and Penn State. Like, same, what's the difference here? So, you know, you know, program ceiling is always interesting. If you were to told me what, what's Indiana's program ceiling? I don't think I ever would have said. It would not have been as high as last year's win total. I think that identifying program ceilings in 2025 is the hardest it's ever been to identify a program ceiling.

Like, Illinois, what's their program ceiling? and what do we think? They just want to achieve what the progress is like I don't know. But, you know, I think that Mark Stoops was excellent during a time in which he had a plan was able to execute that plan. And I think if he is excellent again, he's going to have to find a new way to do it. And that would be super impressive. I'm excited to see what he's got left in the tank. Yeah.

And I'm excited to see how many teams can be good. Like, and can you dethrone teams that are good to become one of the teams that are good? Because I think, like, it feels like Kentucky and South Carolina every time they play are kind of fighting over that. Yeah. Like, didn't it feel like a huge moment last year? Wasn't South Carolina a double-digit underdog at Kentucky? I think it was week two.

And then just annihilated them. And it felt like the whole season shifted. Yeah. Yeah. But now Vandy's good, too. Yeah. Also, Louisville is kind of interesting. And I wonder what their plan is.

Very interesting. And I think Louisville with Jeff Brom is positioned to succeed in the ACC long term. Is Vince Meryl going to Louisville like if Mark Pantone went to Ann Arbor? It is that version of it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's a pretty deep cut. It is.

And I think if you're a random fan. And they try to get him a year before that. So they didn't give up. But I think if you're a random fan, you might not realize that, like if you're just a USC fan listening to this, you might not realize the significance of that. But like Vince Mero was like, Mark Stoops' right-hand man, and he went to the rival. Yeah.

So that's one of those, like, on the KSR message board. Yeah. Massive discussion of that. So. But, yeah, great question and very thoughtful. I really appreciate it, Joshua. Thank you. Next question from Drew.

I'm looking at group of five schedules, and two in particular stood out as they have three power four games, including road games against SEC teams. If USF and Tulane both go 12 and oh with a regular season and play each other in the American championship game. What do you think the chances are of both teams getting a CFP bid? If unlikely, walk us through the scenario when this could happen or two group of five bids can occur in general. It was almost discussed last year with Arizona State and Tulane had they not lost to Memphis on Thanksgiving and would have won the American. Okay. So let's first look at the schedules for Tulane and for USF. I think that's the best way to start. Tulane plays three power

conference teams. Two of them, I think Tulane, you feel pretty good about their chances in the game. They're favored against Northwestern. Duke then comes to them. Now, it's going to be weird because Tulane's old quarterback, Darian Minson, now plays for Duke. I think Duke might be a slight favor in that game, but we'll have to see how the season starts. Then Tulane goes to Ole Miss. The fact of those two play this year is so random.

It is. The fact of that, like, the game was scheduled a while back. No, I know, but just like the happenstance of that actually occurring is so bizarre to me. But it's great. I'm happy. It's another, we're going to be talking about it. But it's so funny. Like, what are the odds of that?

Okay, keep going. So Tulane and USF, as you can see on Tulane's schedule, Tulane and USF do not play in the regular season, despite both being members of the American. Tulane has to play Memphis. USF has to play Memphis. Tulane has Army. That's obviously going to be a very tough one. USF has Navy, does not have Army, but USF also has, they don't have three power conference opponents in the non-conference, but one of them is a group of five opponent that may as well be a power conference opponent. Boise State plays at USF on Thursday night of week one.

That's going to be a fun game. No Ashton Genti, but Boise State obviously the expectations never changed there. USF then plays at Florida week two They play at Miami week three And if they win even one of those games And then win the American I think there would be a chance for them to make the playoff Now if both of those teams went 12 and 0

They would both make the playoff Regardless of how the American championship game went Yeah I think so this is also like we're on Mars right now I don't know I mean the chances of this happening are almost none yeah but here if they both go 12 and oh and USF loses to Tulane in the American championship they're definitely both getting in because USF would have wins against Florida and Miami and unless both of them just at that right but unless both of them just fell off the table which I don't think they're both going to do it would have been

been enough, plus beating some good teams in the American. So that is, is possible. Like, it is possible. It's not going to happen. But in theory, yeah, that, that, that, they would both get in. Yeah. I mean, we'd be, we'd be talking a lot about the American if that happened midway through the year. Yeah. Could you imagine beating Miami in, in Florida and back-to-back weeks, like what that would mean for USF's program? Oh, my God. Well, it would mean, Alex Golish is going to get hired somebody somewhere else next year. It might be right off and their coach is gone. But, you know, it's a fun thought exercise, but it's also like, well, what if, you know,

Margot Robbie walks in right in here? What do I do with my wife in the other room? I don't know. I don't know. Exactly. Yeah, it would be very tough. Both of them play Memphis in the regular season. Like I said, Tulane's got Army, USF's got Navy.

It's going to be, it's going to be very hard to do that. but holy crap i mean just usf if they beat boise state and then beat like what if they went to the swamp and beat florida that would be incredible would we be talking about florida more than usf that week i don't know like what we we oh we would because the the fire billy bus would just crank back up at that point i think we would be fired i don't think you'd be immediately fired but i think it would not augur well for what would happen when they go to LSU the following week and when they play at Miami the week after that.

If they lost the USF at home, you think he'd make it to the next weekend? Yeah, but not much far than that. I don't know about that. I don't know if I agree with you. You would know, but that would be bad. Week two at home. You can't lose that game.

You just can't. How people are feeling in Gainesville, week two. No. Yeah, with the DJ Lagway situation being what it is, the injury situation. Yeah, it's. Okay. Not great.

All right. One more. From Eric with a K. This is not necessarily a question, but more of a statement. I don't think people are rooting against Arch Manning. I think people are rebelling against the clickbait comments made by the media. Ari's comments such as, it's impossible for Arch not to be good,

or I guarantee he will be in New York for the Heisman, makes people root against Ari and other media members, and therefore Arch by extension. Eric didn't say that, but I did. okay making such statements for a guy who has started two games but has a famous last name not only inflame some listeners and i'm not naive it's also the point of shows most of us just want to see what arch goes out and does and proves before we annoy him we root against media members like ari who already have for no apparent reason hey uh by the way if you're rooting

against me i don't know what the outcome you're hoping for is but i'm doing great um second of all the beauty of rooting against a media member like do you know how many people root against stephen a smith every day stepheny smith loves that you're rooting against him by the way stepheny smith takes your rooting against him right to the bank but i resent and this is the the guy outed himself in the question if they had a five-star person with immaculate tape who is big and throws it like that and runs that fast stepping into Texas's offense and the coach that had him stepping into that offense did not go get another quarterback to start this year with all the evidence that is at place that prediction that comment has nothing to do with his last name it has to do with the circumstances around him

and people cannot see it and it drives me crazy it drives me absolutely insane but the thing is you would not say that about another five start like if DJ Lagway was the one who was becoming the starting quarterback at Texas this year. The same thing that he would guarantee to go to New York? Yeah. Well, the guaranteed to go to New York thing does have to go. See? Yeah.

See? But like that, but that is a completely isolated discussion about how media members vote for things. That has nothing to do. Guaranteeing that he's going to. That's what pisses people off. Eric's right about that. Okay.

That's great. I mean, but my prediction of him being. good and going to new york has been predicated on his last name as much as it is like the circumstance he's got he's got money if he wants to go to new york he can he's going to be by the way yes he's some some really good shows you can go see wicked what if you went to cats that weekend i don't know like he could still go there i don't know uh arch doesn't strike me as a cat's kind of guy i don't even know what that is other than i see the signs when i'm looking at the memories all alone in the moonlight

is it yeah no but yeah it's a good question it's a good thought and i know and i know and i know know it's complicated, but, like, I just want people to know that, like, I'm not infatuated with the last name. I'm infatuated with his ability in where he is in the tools around him. You also think because of his last name, he's guaranteed to be a Heisman finalist and you can now understand why that pisses people off. Yeah, but I also think that his last name is part of the reason why people even consider him. I think they would usually consider a really good Texas quarterback. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think Vince Young was second in the Heisman voting.

And I'm pretty sure the voters got that. I don't know. Well, Reggie Bush was really good, too. But there's other five-star quarterbacks that are stepping into roles that they could have been recruited over that we don't talk about nearly as much.

So I guess you're right. But, like, I mean, are people rooting for Julie and San because we're not talking about them as much? People are rooting against Don't. I think Michigan fans are rooting against Julian San because he plays for Ohio State. But other than that,

I don't think people have an opinion. Yeah. But everybody has an opinion on Arch because they know his last name. All right. it is time to talk about my favorite weird thing that happened this week not favorite because it's terrifying if you're producer river the murder bird twice in two days two days in a row river bailey has been walking his dog in nashville and has been attacked by the same mockingbird

same mockingbird same house same spot so new schedule allows me to go on walks in the morning and I'm walking the dog and all of a sudden I feel like somebody like gripping the back of my elbow like my weenis area you know your venus? Yeah the weanis

get your weanis? Yeah you know what the is right Andy? I guess I do now. It's just that little area I don't know your elbow but it was like I felt like a pinch on it I turn around I didn't know what it was and this mocking bird is like just going A ball

at me it had to have a nest around but if there's ring camera footage out there somewhere i'm just like trying to take my hat off trying to hit this bird and my golden retriever doesn't know what i'm doing like he is like on the ground like scared and i'm just this he's probably scared of the bird yeah the mocking bird's just like swooping down at me just continuously trying to get me to get away and it's happened two days in a row i'm going tomorrow i'm going to bring my roommate to record it to see if see if we get a third day in a row like battle we are posting this on instagram if it has it

Yeah, yeah, I'll come in here and insert the video before this goes out. Beautiful. But, I mean, it's just, I've never had it happen to me. And it's like it was biting the back of my arm. It was unreal. I didn't know what to think. My wife got attacked by a duck one time. It was terrifying and hilarious all at the same time.

Yeah, that would be awful. That's actually terrifying, dude. It's a bird like this. Birds are nasty, by the way. Everybody thinks birds are cute. Birds are dirty. They're nasty. I hope he hit you again. I like you, but I think it's hilarious. Same spot. Yeah, I'm going tomorrow prepared for war. I'm going to go up listening to Mockingbird by M&M.

Do people, do people, would they get mad at the river if they hit him to the baseball? M&M. Yeah. You're not going to listen to Mockingbird by the Beatles? No, M&M. Give me the M&M. Oh, that's Blackbird. Blackbird. Yeah, I was going to say. Yes, Mockingbird is the M&M. I had a whole rant about how you're not allowed to. just name a song the same thing as a classic song if it's not a cover but that's not the same thing because the Beatles song is Blackbird yeah but sorry day three is going to happen there there might

be footage potentially I swear it's that bird right there this is the battle zone It went away. Maybe not. This is in the spot the last two days. This is day four. I'm solo on this mission. Doesn't look like there's any action around here. No birds.

No birds. Is there, Bruce? Nope. no bird here today so the fact that you were bitten by a bird is pretty crazy and it's crazy it's unreal I've never had like heard of the fact that the same bird attacked him again the next day at the same house

like it was waiting on me this is like Peter Griffin and the chicken two days in a row all right get that video footage get that video footage we're going we're going murder birds of Nashville the next great reality television show can't wait

I mean, we will have an update on the murder bird on Monday. This, I promise you.