Andy & Ari On3 - Penn State Deep Dive: Can James Franklin get the Nittany Lions over the hump?

Episode Date: July 3, 2025

Happy Thursday! Andy & Ari continue their week of deep dives with the Penn State Nittany Lions. Coming off of a heartbreaking loss to Notre Dame in the Orange Bowl last year, Penn State returns a plethora of talent in University Park. Sean Fitz from On3's Blue White Illustrated joins the show and gives us his best in-depth analysis of the program. Is Drew Allar poised for a great year? How do Penn State fans view James Franklin's tenure? Did the receiver issue get addressed? All that and more in a jam packed show about the Nittany Lions. (0:00-2:10) Intro(2:11-5:14) Sean Fitz from Blue White Illustrated joins(5:15-8:57) How do fans feel about James Franklin?(8:58-12:10) Is the receiver problem fixed?(12:11-14:11) Drew Allar's expectations(14:12-17:03) Andy Kotelnicki in his 2nd year as OC(17:04-20:14) Tyler Warren's replacement(20:15-24:03) Evolution of James Franklin at Penn St(24:04-27:49) Hiring of Jim Knowles(27:50-34:39) Real Expectations for Penn State(34:40-36:30) Closing out with Sean More news on PSU here: https://www.on3.com/teams/penn-state-nittany-lions/ Watch us LIVE on YouTube, M-F at 9:30 am et! https://www.youtube.com/@On3sports Hosts: Andy Staples, Ari WassermanProducer: River Bailey 

Welcome to Andy and Ari on three. Hope you are maybe starting your holiday weekend a little bit early. Maybe driving somewhere fun. We're gonna party for the 4th of July. Hopefully, we're giving you something to listen to, something to watch, to watch while you're driving. But Ari, Deep Dive Week continues

with a fascinating program. One we've talked about a lot over the last few years, the Penn State Nittany Lions made it to the semi-finals last year, bring back a ton, including quarterback Drew Aller. Huge expectations on this team. And it seems maybe filled the biggest glaring hole through the transfer portal.

Yeah, we had a discussion and you know a month ago about whether or not this team should be ranked number one overall going into the season. And you know the initial reaction to that sort of thought process is wow James Franklin is going to choke or Penn State always is overrated in the end. It's like that's not what we're doing here. We're trying to project forward and it seems to me like Penn State at least has an argument to be one of the three most well-rounded teams in the country. I think that would be my top three would be Penn State, Texas, and Clemson, which is illustrated there on that graphic in terms of having game-changing players at a multitude of positions. They have a quarterback that you know people like to give a hard time because of that last throw we had in the semifinal, but at the same time should be a much improved version

of himself and somebody who could be a first round pick a year from now. There's a lot to like about this Penn State team and you know, frankly speaking, Andy, you know, you know, my thought process was that Penn State would be the number one biggest beneficiary of the playoff system expansion because they were always in the 6 to 10 range and that will be true. But if Penn State also improves while the system makes it easier

for them to exist years like last year are going to be more more regular. So I'm excited to see if they can break through this year though. I think they have a real shot to do it. Well, let's go deep into the Penn State team roster. Psyche with our guy Sean Fitz from Blue-White Illustrated that's on three's Penn State site and Sean you preside over the message boards and I am interested to hear from you. Where is the Penn State fan base at coming into the season

after making a semifinal bringing back all they bring back, but it was still a season where they didn't beat Ohio State and some of the stuff that was a huge problem in the 14 playoff era. Maybe not as big of a problem, but still a problem. Yeah, you look at Penn State. I would say kind of a victim of its own consistency. Really? You have a situation where they've won a lot of games.

Um, they haven't gotten over the top. They made it to the final four last year, as you mentioned, and that's a, a great, great accomplishment, but at the same time, you know, you're going to kick back and say, well, they beat SMU at home and then they beat Boise state. And then then I guess when you would frame it as they ran into a real team in Notre Dame, they fell short. I think that that's the consistent framework that we've seen the entire time. It's not the entire story. I still think those wins in the playoff, pretty impressive. You bottled up a guy like Ashton Gentey, who's one of the finest running backs that's come around in college football a long time. So like the, the, the consistency and the sort of lack of punch and flash and things like that is

great for winning 11 games and eventually stretching out and winning the games that you have to in the playoff. Um, but you're always going to fall back to the Franklin stuff. You're always going to fall back to the Ohio state, the Michigan stuff, whatever it may be. And of course, Oregon moving to the big 10, um, you know, changes, changes the math significantly in that in that, in that argument as well. So I think you just kind of see that. And I mean, you look back a decade, maybe a little bit more, and you see what Clemson went through. And that was a punchline for a while. And I think Penn State's kind of found themselves in the same spot of like, until it happens, not a lot of people are

going to believe in them. And, you know, you kind of you kind of look at it and you say, Okay, well, I can see the lot of people are going to believe in them. And, you know, you kind of, you kind of look at it and you say, OK, well, I can see the, the, the, the history building in that one. But you also take a look at this roster. You take a look at how things have evened out from a parody perspective in college football. And Penn State's got a lot of talent, a lot of spots. And how does that, you know, translate into what they're making, or the run that they can possibly make in 2025? Well, they're an experienced team, they're an old team, they're a run the football team, and there are a lot of things that Michigan was a couple of years ago when it won a national title. So I think that you look at that and you can take away and

you can see where the odds are coming from. Ari, I know you're tremendously high on him and on them. Andy, I know you've been a proponent of them for a long time, but I think it's kind of all coming together. It kind of starts with the retention that they brought back at the end of the season. Yeah, the thing that I think is worth noting is that the Penn State team that is coming back this next year might not have been good enough

to be a preseason national championship favorite in 2019, but it certainly is now. And that's all that matters. And the thing that I think is interesting about the psyche is that when James Franklin, you correct me Sean, if I'm wrong, but when James Franklin got this God contract, this 10 year extension, weren't there a lot of Penn State

fans who were kind of out on him and were ready for a change at that point? And where are we now in terms of how they view James Franklin going into this year after what they did a year ago? It's very segmented. I mean, you look at the fan base and there's going to be people that it's never going to be good enough. Even if he wins the national title, why did it take this long? And I think that that's kind of the genesis or like it's how college football is run now. Like nothing's ever good enough and I get that it happens

You know, it's kind of the the expectations versus the reality of being in the news cycle 24 7 365 is and that's kind of what you get and to be here for a decade and to Not get over the hump against those top teams while ignoring basically the the other stuff that's followed through I mean, there's there's been a lot of coaches that have not won the games that they're supposed to win. And I think that that's kind of what we went back to in the opening statement is that Penn State has really been a mark of consistency, albeit not at the top level.

And I think that it's tough to be five to 15. When you're one through four, everybody knows who you are, everybody knows what you're in there. But when you're in that five through 15, you're kind of living in that, like, better than everyone else, but not good enough to get over the hump. And I think that's where they've been. So, yes, I think there's always going to be that kind of segment within the fan base that it's not going to be good enough.

And I think it's natural. How big is the segment of fans in that equation? So you have an X number of percentage of people who are resentful that they haven't beaten Ohio State or won a national championship, which I think, by the way, is a little irrational. Winning the national championship is really, really hard.

And when you're being compared directly for the large portion of your career at Penn State to the Big Ten East, which was playing Michigan and Ohio State every year, you're being judged against one of the best programs in the country and it's not, it might not be fair, but how much of the fan base is last year was great. That's good enough for me. Like are there people who are okay winning 10 games and being what Penn State has been or is everybody sitting at the edge of their seat like crap? Why cannot, why can we not beat Ohio state? Well, the expectations fluctuate, right?

You talk about Penn State last year and did not expect to find themselves in the big 10 title game. Did not, you know, especially, you know, after, after losing one, you know, not early, but losing one that, you know, usually torpedoed your season basically in the big 10. Yeah. And then it changes. And then all of a sudden you win two playoff games and you're like, okay, maybe they can do this. And then you have a lead on Notre Dame in the Orange Bowl and it flushes away.

And that's where the expectations really just kind of go in waves. And hey, Penn State felt really good about themselves at halftime at that Orange Bowl. Penn State fans felt really good about the direction of that team at halftime at that Orange Bowl. Penn State fans felt really good about the direction of that team at halftime at that Orange Bowl. And all of a sudden it goes away and you're thinking, okay, well, it's back to square one.

It's Clemson-ing. Just going back to the reference I made earlier from a decade and a half ago, and obviously that was wrong because they bounced back, won some national titles, and did some great things. And can Penn State get over that hump? We still don't know. So I think that that's what you're looking at. And like I said, I think with any fan bay, I mean, Ryan Day was on the, uh, you know, on the chopping

block until he won a national title. Like this is irrational. This is irrational. This is all rational. Like this is nothing that there's, there's nobody looking at, at any fan base right now and saying, this is a level headed group that understands the expectations. And when they settle on this win total, that's not a national championship, it's going to be okay. I don't think that happens anywhere. I think Purdue might be like that. I think they may be like, just win some games, please. Please Barry Odom win some games. But now I'm with you. We had James Franklin on the show a few months ago, and this is before the Trevor Pena transfer. He brought up unbidden wide receivers, the problem.

And obviously the stat that everybody's thrown around all off season is zero catches by a wide receiver in the orange bowl. Just not acceptable. But you look at Penn State's depth chart, pretty much everybody else is somebody they bring back. Their top three wide receivers, probably gonna be transfers. Kyron Hudson from USC, Devontae Ross from Troy, Trevor Pena, the aforementioned from Syracuse. That was the biggest hole. And it felt like for once they went out and tried to fill it.

For once is an interesting thing because there's been a position that's been sort of consistent over the last couple of years looking at the portal is wide receiver. Now Penn State has an approach and I think they still have this approach to an extent where you don't want to upset the apple car. You don't want to upset the guys in the room. You don't want to just do too much to upset the room, but they reached a point where it had gotten unavoidable, really.

You look at the Orange Bowl, and I think that that is a sum of the rest of the issues that they had. Now, granted, in a Mackie Award winner in Tyler Warren, you had two running backs that were hitting on all cylinders. You targeted your wide receivers five times in the Orange Bowl. That's not enough, absolutely. But I think that there are ways to kind of explain around it, not excuse it, but explain around it. So you've got Trey Wallace, Omari Evans. Last year you had Keandre Lambert-Smith, and Penn State has been delicate about their locker room because that has developed a culture that has led them to where they're at in the mark of consistency that they're at. And now all of a sudden, it's a more of a roadblock than a speed bump to winning a national championship because you saw it on a national stage and it wasn't good enough.

So I think they didn't go full blown scorched earth to that room, but they stopped saying, we're worried about the psyche of the guys that are coming back rather than fix it. And then this year they tried to go out and fix it. They got Hudson and Ross in the winter portal and Trevor Pena, you know, was, uh, you know, I guess one of the marquee guys in the spring portal. So now you've, you've completely flipped that room in theory. They've gone for production over potential. Omari Evans has a ton of potential as a four, three guy, never really came

to fruition in Penn State's offense. I still think Trey Wallace is a really good player. Like he's going to, I think Trey Wallace is a really good player. Like he's gonna, I think he'll do well at Ole Miss. I haven't really kept up with how he's doing, but I think he's a really good player. But the potential, the triangle numbers and the development landmarks and things like that

kind of go out the window when you're not catching the football. And I think that's what you really get back with Kyron Hudson, with Ross. And then of course, Pena was the most productive of all three. So you're trading potential for production and hoping that it can do enough. You're not looking at these guys as game breakers, game changers and things like that. You're looking at guys that can move the sticks, can get you scores, can get you where you

need to be while your running backs do the things that you believe that they can do. And they've shown, I think they've shown that they can do. And your tight ends continue to be a focal point of this offense. What's your take on the general viewpoint of Drew Aller from the regular fan? No, he takes a lot of flack for the throw that he made at the end of the Orange Bowl. And in your estimation, how good is he and can he be this year? He can be a No. 1 pick. Does that mean that he's a national championship quarterback? I don't know. He's got some things that he still needs to iron out. I think he's a tremendous player. I think that he has done some things in his career that maybe get overlooked in terms of running the football, in terms of, I don't want to say changing his game, but also tailoring it to what, whoever the offensive coordinator is going to be. And he got, he slimmed down,

he got more agile last year. I think it really helped him. And when you can take that upon your shoulders, run the football or just scramble for those first downs, it can make all the difference in what you can do as a productive college quarterback versus that prototype that he is. Because he's 6'5", he can throw the ball a mile, he can do all those kind of things. I've seen him make throws that two or three quarterbacks in college football can make. He's one of them. But he's got to be more consistent with the ball. He's got to be more consistent about making his reads. He's got to be more consistent about the way that he handles those situations. I mean, you've seen him on the sideline. He's a fiery emotional guy. Does that get the best of him on the next series? It has. And his misses, especially in the Orange Bowl, were magnified by some of that stuff. And I think that, I think he'll

be fine. I think he can continue to be one of the better college quarterbacks in the country. But also, he's kind of like Penn State, right? He's kind of like the guy that has these top level expectations was a, you know, developed into a five-star guy. Penn State offered him as a three-star and developed into one of the best quarterback prospects in the country. And I think he is one of the best quarterbacks in the country, if we're being frank. But is he the top guy that's going to lead you over the top? I think that that is still a question that, that remains to be seen. And I think the world of Drew, I think the world, the way he's handled a lot of things. But at the end of the day, the kid gloves came off last year, and you continue to have high expectations because of the player that he

is, because of the player that he can be. How much does, does a second year with Andy Kudelnicki, as the offensive coordinator, change things? Because obviously, he opened things up a little bit. There was always a question of how much will James Franklin let an OC open things up, but it felt like if the receiver talent had been there, this could have been a pretty dynamic offense, given what they did with Tyler Warren. With Kotelnicki and Aller together for year two, does that mean there could be a jump? I think so.

I mean, I don't even think that's a Kotelnicki-Aller thing. You get the continuity there anywhere in college football. And I think you see that because you understand the strengths that you can play off. And Andy sort of gets dropped in, I don't want to say cold Turkey, but he gets dropped into using the pieces there in place and there were some good pieces in place. And you know, the best tight end in college football last

year was there. So honestly, I think more about that than I think about the Kotelnicki-Oller connection is that Tyler Warren had a hundred and some catches, which means he had nearly 200, you know, 150, 200 targets. They're going to have to find a way to spread that out. And I think they will. And I think you can be a more efficient offense.

Even if you take the top player of this, off of this offense, you can be more efficient because you are less predictable, you are less apt to lean on one guy. And I think they're gonna lean on those running backs pretty heavily in the running and passing game. They have a really good offensive line, or they projected to have a really good offensive line coming back, and I think the pieces are in place now.

And if you can spread that ball out, get the receivers involved, and be more dynamic and diverse, then it's going to make everybody look better. I mean, let's be honest, Andy Kodanicki, smart guy, but he's at his best when he has the best players and sort of a level field to play with. You're not having to fool people with formation if you just have better players. That helps, right? You know, you just be better, be flat out better than everybody. And I than everybody. Like I said, I think they're going to run the football a lot. I think that they've got the guys to do it. K-Tron Allen really stepped up in the playoff last year. You talk about the dynamic aspect of Nick Singleton, but K-Tron Allen is a guy that just churned and a light went on. He

had a full off season for the first time this year. He's gotten his speed up a little bit. I still don't think he's a home run hitter, but at the same time, if you have two top 10 backs in the country and you've got an offense line to run behind, why wouldn't you? So, uh, all the, all the, um, attention I think is on the receivers coming in. And rightfully so, because that is the piece that needs fixed the most, no doubt. But when you've got these guys coming in that have the potential to carry this game for

11, maybe even 12 games in your schedule this year, it used to be a situation where you could, you know, you roll over nine games and then you'd have the three that were toss ups, if you will. But I think Penn State has the ability to to run the football against pretty much any team on their schedule and and have some success. Luke Reynolds. How good is he at tight end? Going to be good. He's going to be good. I can't talk about Luke Reynolds without talking about Khalil Dinkins, who is the guy that is going to be the starter at tight end. Let's be honest, Penn State's got two, maybe three starters at tight end every year. That's the

way they do things, kind of fabric of the program right now. But Khalil Dinkins has waited his turn behind Tyler Warren, good blocker, good catcher of the football, not as dynamic of a receiver as Luke Reynolds. And I think that that's probably what you look at and you're gonna see Khalil Dinkins have a really, really good football season. And then you're gonna see the numbers for Luke Reynolds

and they're probably gonna to be much better. So he's got the potential to be a star at Penn State and Penn State's done a really good job of just sort of building up that assembly line of tight ends. I know that it's really funny because you talk about the fan base and the frustration with where they're at and the receiver conversation comes back to, well, why are they so focused on tight ends? Tight ends are really damn good. Like they've been really good for a long time. So it's just a fascinating dynamic

when you take a look at getting your best players the football and your best players just happen to be six three to six six, 250 pounds. I mean, it's a different way to look at it. Well, it take people behind the curtain. Before we started recording, we were talking about a recent commitment to Penn State named Pierce Peterson from Minnesota, who looks like the next version of this. And he's a 6'5", 210 pound quarterback linebacker basketball player track guy who Penn State

projects as a tight end. When you're good at something, lean into it. I don't have a problem with that at all, Sean. Yeah, and you look at Luke Reynolds, who is a, you know, six, four, six, five. He's, I think I checked this morning, he's listed at 250. He was a high school quarterback just like that.

He's a multi-sport athlete. He's a guy that, you know, had a lot of those athletic traits. And that's what Ty Howell and the Penn State have done is they've gone out, they've identified a size, range, and athletic number testing point trait blueprint, and they've been pretty good at it. It's a room that's so good that they've got guys

that are probably guys that can play in the Big Ten that aren't really gonna see the field all that much. So I think it's a really interesting dynamic. And you've also got you bring into play sort of what we've seen in the NFL is these tight ends that yes, you need them to block Khalil Dinkins, I think is a tremendous blocker. But when you play 12th personnel, you can also put Luke Reynolds in the slot. You can put Luke Reynolds out wide. It doesn't hinder your offense to have more tight ends on the field. And I think that is kind of the stigma of playing

a tight end heavy offense is that it changes things. But if you've got guys that can catch football, you've got guys that can score touchdowns, it doesn't matter as much in the long run. So there was a moment last year when Penn State lost Ohio State and James Franklin got into it with a fan that was talking a little garbage to him. I'm sure you're very familiar with what I'm talking about. Listeners might not be.

But sometimes I wonder about him because he is maybe the coach in college football that has the most vitriol sputed him. Would you say that Andy, would you say that like, he's the number one target of, of just random people talking? Yeah, it's one of those that when we bring his name up, the chat is kind of overwhelmingly negative. And I don't quite understand that. It's not just like, they don't like Penn State. It's like, they don't like him. Something about James Franklin that gets people fired up. And I, I know you've been around him.

The evolution of him as a coach has experienced last year, all these things. Like, where do you think he's at in terms of like what he needs personally? Um, I'm very curious about, you know, we always talk about knocking on the door and how important that is to finally break through, but I'm just fascinated by James Franklin's career arc, uh, and, and how he's doing there. Coming out of Vanderbilt, I think it was, I think you probably wouldn't recognize the two beside each other right now. Cause I think you guys probably spent some time earlier in his career around him.

And it was a lot of the stuff that, you know, still kind of gets thrown around the, the, the snake oil, the, the rah rah, all that kind of stuff. And I think he grew out of that in a couple of years, but it's, it's still stuck around like that's that, that relationship with the fans, the relationship with college football media. I think it comes across, you know, phony to fans of not of your school. Like, I think that that that is what it does. But I think he got away from that 2016, 2017, something like that. He's been kind of a consistent, consistently the same guy since. But that stuff sticks with you. Like you, first

impressions matter. And I think his first impression at Vanderbilt being this rah rah guy being this, you know, he's not a young coach anymore. You know, he was at one point, you know, a young up and coming coach that's got to be rash to get people to pay attention to Vanderbilt. And then he came to Penn State. And I think he thought that that would carry over. And there's things that you can do at Vanderbilt that you can't get away with at Penn State because the program is bigger in itself and we're not going to get into all the history and stuff like that, but it's a very different look at that.

So I'm having a conversation with him, this is 10 years ago and he's like, what's going on? What are people saying? And I'm like, James, a lot of lettermen, they don't like you. Like this is a situation where, and I talked about this on our show at Blue Astrid, like this is a situation where. The way to do it or the way that he was doing it was not going over well with the people that really actually mattered to the program.

Like Letterman matter to this program, the people around, you know, fans do matter to an extent, but like guys that have input and the guys that can can say these different things, they do matter to this program. And they didn have input and the guys that can say these different things, they do matter to this program. And they didn't like the way he was doing it. He's like 180 from Joe Paterno, which is, I understand that. But at the same time, I think you saw him sort of move to the back. I mean, he's still one of the faces of the program, but when he came in, it was James Franklin's Penn State program. Now it's Penn State featuring James Franklin or however you want to list it in the band notes or the liner notes or whatever. So I think that that has changed some things. And I think it's changed the way that he

has gone about things. And I also think that the change in leadership at Penn State with the new president with Pat Kraft at AD have changed some things as well, because it's easier to get yeses now. For the longest time at Penn State, it was a bureaucratic nightmare, not just with getting things across the line, but also the self-imposed sanctions and everything, just making everything harder to make it harder. I think that's what we got. I understand the argument against that, but also it's been tougher than it has had to be. I'm glad you brought that up because it does seem like they're in a better situation now. Pat Kraft is a very football forward AD. He played football

in Indiana. The new president, well, not new anymore. She came in 2022, right? But they all seem to be very aligned. And I wonder, Sean, could the hiring of Jim Knowles as the defensive coordinator this offseason, is that something that could have happened under the previous administration? No, no, no, not, not remotely close to hiring a guy like that at that salary. Like, I mean, it's a, you know, you can go out and you can find great coaches. And I think he's done a good job of surrounding himself with pretty good coaches over the year. But to go out and land a whale at that price point? No, absolutely not. Because, I mean, they made Jim, Jim Knowles the highest paid defensive coordinator ever, and had to, because they'd lost Tom Allen to Clemson. The previous year, they'd lost Manny Diaz to become the head coach at Duke. And you want to keep that going. You have all this talent. You don't want to lose those guys in the portal.

And so they went out and got the biggest fish out there. And I feel like that makes a huge difference. But let's talk about Jim Knowles and that defense because he had to come in and fix Ohio State's defense. I'm not sure there's anything that needs fixing in Penn State's defense. He just needs to keep it, keep it going. That's the that's the interesting thing about this hire is usually when there is a splash hire like this, like Andy Colenicki needed to turn around an offense, like he needed to change things, because it clearly wasn't working in the in the best circumstances. Penn State's defense, even in the losses that they've had to these top level programs has been pretty darn good. And I'm going to take a shot every time I say this now, but the market consistency on defense. I mean, Penn State's been right up there. I'm not sure that there's been a better defense over the last five years consistently. And that's not always the number one defense, but you're just

looking at the top rankings and they don't fluctuate as much in there. So I think Manny Diaz did a heck of a job. I think Tom Allen kind of kept things afloat without pushing forward if that makes sense. I you know I think they were definitely a worse defense last year than they were the prior year in Manny Diaz's last year. But now I think that Jim Knowles has an opportunity to take something that is fairly ready-made and they're not the deepest unit. They've got some issues to work through. They just lost Max Granville for most of the year. It was expected to be a big part of their pass rush

this year, and they've got some depth issues that some of it has been addressed by the portal, not all of it, because that's college football, and that's how everything has worked for the longest time. But no, he's got an opportunity to sort of put his stamp in and not have to change everything. And I think that that's been a really interesting dynamic of this football team, in that it's there for the taking, I think. And adding a smart guy like Knowles, who,

like, you check the feedback from campus, is a guy that's very analytical, very, very different than Tom Allen, in pretty much every way. Putting him with a ready-made defense, I think, is a good opportunity. Now, still got to do it in the field, and they still have to stay healthy, which, you know, you lose, you go down to safety or something like that. That's going to change some things, and it did last year with KJ Winston going down. So I think that that's a fascinating dynamic. But I think a lot of, just based on the feedback that I've gotten from Jim Knowles, he has the ability to put these guys in the right spot and sort of, you know, you see those videos online where they start the treadmill and the guys, you know, you're you're to sprint when you hit that treadmill and

you have to keep going. That's Jim Knowles right now. That's also my biggest fear in life. Funny enough. Getting on one of those things. Sean, you've been around the program a long time and I know that you have a pretty good pulse on what's going on here. Are your expectations for what's possible for Penn State this season at an all time high? I think so. Yeah.

I, I, I watched this team in the spring and thought, man, this is a really good football team and I'm, I'm, I'm one to find the flaws. I'm one to look at what, you know, I just mentioned defensive depth, um, where a lot of teams in the big 10 would probably kill to have the depth that Penn State has the level that they had. So I think so. This is, this has got to be the year. Um, this has got it.

You look at what Penn State has brought back with, especially with stars like denied Dennis Sutton, Zayn Durant, who is consistently unappreciated, may be the best player on this football team. You're going to talk about Drew Aller, you're going to talk about the running game, but like those kind of retention pieces are absolutely key. Going out and finding a guy like A.J. Harris in the portal last year at corner can give you a real lockdown corner, give you the versatility that you need in the secondary to play in Oregon, and then also play in Ohio State, and then also play a Notre Dame, or play, just play these different forms of football. Because I know that the Big Ten has expanded, I know the SEC has taken over, but you

still have general regional football to play. And I think Penn State has a team, like Ohio State has had in the past, like Michigan has had in the past, that can conform to play the teams think Penn State has a team like Ohio State has had in the past like Michigan has had in the past that can conform to play the teams not only on their schedule, but also the teams that they're gonna eventually see in the playoff. Well, and let's talk about the schedule because Penn State during the Big Ten East era, it was basically a two game season. Michigan and Ohio State, what happens now? This is different. They can still roll over most of the teams on their schedule, but I look at this schedule and I see Oregon coming to State College in late September, and then you've got the stretch that there's an open date in between, but at Iowa at Ohio State and then Indiana comes to State College. It's not a two game season. They've got to be able to win some of these games against these better teams to make the

playoff here. I think so. But also it's not a situation where in the 14 playoff where you lose one of those games and you're toast. If you're Penn State with the reputation that Penn State has or with the, I guess the cache that Penn State has, you lose one of those games, you're done. You know, Ohio State didn't have that situation and they made the playoff a couple of times. And it's just one of those things looking back where Penn State, I think, has to work a little harder to make that.

But now it's not quite the NFL model where it doesn't matter if you lose a regular season game, if you win the majority of your games, you're in the playoff. But I think they can do that. I think they can be one of those teams that is 10 and two and in the playoffs. Now you got to get over the hump at some point, right? You got to take a beat or beat Ohio state that at some of the, at some point you got to do that. Yeah, absolutely. And w what's funny about the 12 team playoff or the 16 or whatever it might end up is there's a roadmap now where you can win a

national championship without beating Ohio State. And it's number one, very funny to me, because it's just like that we've gone away from everything that you've learned in the last 40 years that that's where you've got to be. But also, yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where you've got to get over a hump and it's not necessarily, unfortunately on the schedule, one of those things where you've got to get over a hump and it's not necessarily, you know, unfortunately on the schedule, one of those humps is, is a giant O whether it's Oregon, whether it's, it's Ohio state, you split that you're in the playoff and you know, like you said, it may be Texas or it may be Notre Dame or it may be Georgia, but eventually you're gonna have to beat a team like that.

Well, the funniest part about this whole thing is that Penn State's hump was beating Ohio state in November and October at home in the White House. And like now even if they get over that hump, if they go lose, it's done, do it again. It doesn't matter. It's almost like they don't even have to win the regular season games. You just have to do enough to get into the playoff. And then when they face Texas or Ohio State or Oregon in January, that's the one they have to win. The hump in October doesn't matter anymore. And that's part of the reason why I'm not a huge fan of the X-Men.

But if you can beat them in October, you can beat them in January too. That's Oregon, how does that felt last year? Yeah. That's kind of the argument. I mean, you can talk about Penn State here, but you're talking about Oregon that ran rough shot. Well, I don't want to say ran rough shot over the big 10, but they did what they wanted to do in the big 10. And then all of a sudden that didn't matter. Like, Oh yeah. I don't think people appreciate how hard what Oregon did last year in the regular season was. And then it didn't matter because they got smoked in the Rose Bowl. Correct. And on the flip side, like we, we saw the draw came out. When we're sitting in

Indy and the draw came out and it's SMU and if you beat SMU, you played Boise State. Like we could see the argument forming in your head that Penn State still hasn't beaten anybody and they could be a Final Four team and that is what it ended up. You know, that is what happened with- The fact that they were right there against Notre Dame. And in fact, I would say dominating for the first half of the game, crap out of them the first half. Yeah, like that's why I look back on this on last year, Sean, and I don't look at a team that benefited from a favorable path like they belong there. They just got to win some of those games. Correct. Correct. Correct. But also too, because of the path. What I think is unfortunate, Andy, is that

Penn State isn't given the beneficiary or the benefit of the doubt, I should say, right, of being a Final Four team, the way it would have had they gotten there on the Four Team era. Like, I think they made it to the Final Four, but people don't act like, wow, they got there. Like, that's not how they're, and I don't know if that's fair or not. It really doesn't matter. What matters is, is when you bring the whole team back, you know, outside of a pretty good tight end, you add some pieces and like, I know we talked about Trevor Pena, but like that is the move that made me move Penn State

from two to one of my rankings, because they finally have a guy who is an innings eater, who gets open, who can, you know, third and six, like they're moving the sticks. Like they didn't have that. And I know Tyler Horn. I love the innings eater analogy there because that, like I said, I don't know that any of these guys are like, you're not finding Jeremiah Smith in the portal. Like that, that, that, I don't think that that changes, you know, at this level, at the top level where Penn

State is trying to be in the top four, top eight, top 12, whatever it might be. You know, Malik Washington can go from Northwestern to Virginia and have a wonderful season, but I don't think you're finding that at a place like Penn State at that position. So I'm very interested to see how that innings eating approach can take off with a dynamic guy like Devante Ross, with a productive guy like Trevor Pena, and then like a consistent guy with Kyron Hudson, in addition to some of the talent that they have, because I think they do have some talent in that room, it's not worth squawking about.

Because- Well, and we can draw it back to the Orange Bowl, to that stat. Right. If there's a Trevor Pena who can catch five balls, how different does that game turn out? Penn State wins. Yeah. It's that simple. And that's the difference.

I mean, Notre Dame's receivers were as equally maligned going into that game, right? And in Great House, that was his coming out party. Yeah. Exactly. And they made the plays that they had to make and won the football game. There's no doubt about that. So yeah, revisionist history being what it is. I mean, Penn State, if it gets some sort of production there, you know,

moves a stick and takes an extra two minutes off the clock. And then all of a sudden maybe Notre Dame doesn't get the ball at the end of the first time. You know, all these things can play out. And that's, that is what happens when you're in the head of a Penn State fan right now. It's all about the what ifs. And there's been so many that have come along and you kind of felt you were in position to get it done. And then poof, there goes. Sean, maybe not poof this year. It's it's it's a big year. Very

exciting. I can't wait to see Penn State play. But thank you so much, Sean. Tomorrow, I'll be celebrating the 4th of July. We talking about another Big Ten team, the team that Penn State played in the Big Ten title game last year, the Oregon Ducks. We'll be playing a recording of that. I will be blacked out on a boat somewhere. That's true. Ari will be tarp off on a boat. The American dream. we get it. That's right. I will be wearing my shirt with the eagle,

with the sunglasses that says you free tonight and I'll be blacked out by the pool. So there you go. Sean, hopefully you'll be blacked out somewhere too, safely, of course. It is my pleasure and I hope the same. You guys for having me on and hope to talk to you guys as we get into the season. Alright, we'll be talking Oregon Ducks tomorrow with Justin Hopkins. We'll see you.