Andy & Ari On3 - Will Pac-12 members bite on Apple? | Is Florida State ready to try to leave the ACC?

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

Will Pac-12 members bite on Apple? | Is Florida State ready to try to leave the ACC?Want to watch the show? Visit our Youtube Page!https://youtube.com/live/aZV3z_gkU8gAndy and Ralph Russo of The Associated Press discuss Pac-12 commissioner George Kliavkoff's proposed media rights deal. It's reportedly with Apple, and it would require a separate streaming subscription. Is that enough to keep the league together, or might Arizona (and others) consider leaving. (0:00-17:10)Also, Iowa State QB Hunter Dekkers has been charged in a gambling probe. We're going to see more of this, but this is the highest profile player yet. (17:11-23:59)Warchant's Jeff Cameron joins Andy to discuss Florida State's place in realignment. FSU board chair Peter Collins had some very interesting thoughts in a Tuesday night interview with Warchant. One of those? Uneven revenue sharing in the ACC won't be enough. (24:00-49:25)On3 national recruiting host Josh Newberg joins Andy to discuss how the current salary situation involving NFL running backs might trickle down to star recruits. (49:26-1:04:18)Andy's Extra Point is a wish for good health for Julie Venables. The wife of Oklahoma coach Brent Venables was recently diagnosed with breast cancer and just underwent surgery. (1:04:18-1:08:19)

Welcome to Andy Staple on three. A very busy news day in the world of college sports. Maybe not as busy as we thought it was going to be because Ralph Russo from the Associated Press joining me, national writer, who said he wasn't going to be able to be here if the Pac-12 exploded. Hasn't exploded yet, so that's something. But we have some parameters of a TV deal. Apparently we do.

Yeah, you know it's conference realignment season when I haven't showered. Exactly. You're in the office. You're in the Associated Press's office, the office of the world's largest news gathering organization. And I imagine when you woke up this morning, it's like, okay, I'm hunkering down because I don't know what the day holds here. Yeah, it was a little bit of that. I mean, we knew that the PAC 12 presidents and ADs were going to be meeting with Klyavkov, that he was going to be presenting them a deal. Finally,

a deal, a deal, a deal. There had been a lot of talk about what that deal might be. Streaming, maybe something that has to do with some games being sub-licensed. It sort of all came together this afternoon. We still don't know exact numbers of exactly what this deal will pay out.

And I think that's part of the problem, Andy. Like there's a fair amount of uncertainty still built in this deal for a conference that made a big bet. Well, what was it, 12 years ago on the last deal? And that bet didn't pay off. So now it's like, hey, how about you bet on streaming? How about you make a bet on subscriptions to this relatively new platform? And I don't know, man. If I'm a fan of the Pac-12 and really want the Pac-12 to stay together, I'm not saying it's a done deal. But I see a lot of uncertainty baked into this deal that might be hard for me to swallow.

Well, we're going to break it down in plain English as best we can, because I feel like that's the easiest way to do this. But first there are the money. Basically, they said it's different depending on how you, you want to slice it up. It can be, it'll be less than the big 12 at first. It can be more than the big 12, depending on how many subscriptions you sell. It'll sing for your supper action. But it is, uh, basically you would subscribe to Apple TV plus, and there's a couple of ways to do this. Uh, Ralph, you, you can, you can be a subscriber to Apple TV plus, and then pay a smaller additional amount to get your subscription. I'm assuming this is going to work like the MLS subscription service they already have. Or you can just pay a larger amount and you don't have to subscribe to Apple TV Plus and watch Silo and Ted Lasso and all that stuff. And you just get the games you want.

It's actually, if all you want to watch is the Pac-12 and you don't want to have cable anymore, it's a pretty economical deal. But there's a lot of other things that come with it like the school doesn't get as much money unless a bunch of people subscribe you're not going to be on espn or fox or abc or cb you might be on one of them a little bit because apple may sell them some games but otherwise you're not going to be there. People will have to go to Apple to find you. And Ralph, I'm looking at this. So Arizona had a board of regents meeting on Tuesday, which was executive session for the most part. They called it to order and then they disappeared. So we don't know what happened. Yeah.

Yeah. We don't know exactly what has happened yet, but I'm going to ask you, I'm going to put this to you. You are Arizona. I think we can pretty realistically say that they have a big 12, not an official offer because nobody officially offers until you ask, but they could go to the big 12 for a full share. They don't have to worry about how many subscriptions they sell. They could just go.

Would you rather do that or try to sell a bunch of Apple TV subscriptions in the Pac-12? Okay. So my gut reaction to that, the first thing that I think of is, no, I'm taking the Big 12s. I know what that looks like, right? Right. There's more certainty and there's better exposure. The exposure piece is a big thing too. As you said, like, you know, you have to go to Pac-12 games. You're not just going to stumble upon Pac-12 games if they are on a streaming service, when I'm recruiting, that's a big deal to me. That seems like a big deal to me. Now, if Kleopkop had said, listen, hey, this deal is going to be X amount more than the Big 12 deal, and I'm certain of that, yeah, maybe I'll sign up for that. But when I combine the exposure going down, and there's some uncertainty about how much money

I'm going to be making, that's a very scary thing. I will say this, Andy, and I'll throw this question at you. Are we maybe not calculating things like, hey, what's the playoff going to look like? How much of the conversation goes like, there's going to be new revenue sharing around the playoff. I may feel like I have a better chance to get in, or if there are fewer teams in my conference, maybe we're sharing that a little less or having bigger shares of that. So can I calculate that? Can I calculate, hey, it's going to be a short-term deal, maybe four or five years. Maybe there's a good place to park until we see what happens with the SEC in the Big Ten.

Is there a cost amount that goes into it to, I got to go to what? I got to go to Morgantown? I got to go to, like, why do I want to do that? No offense to Morgantown, but that's a long way away from Arizona. So I guess what I would ask you is, do you think that there are some factors at play that we are so focused on the TV deal that maybe there are some factors at play that we're underrating when those conversations are being had at Arizona, Arizona State, Utah and elsewhere? Washington where they say, let's stay in the PAC 12. Let's own this conference. Utah probably is, is thinking in along these lines as well. Yeah, absolutely. Let's own this conference.

We're just going to split the playoff berths every year and we'll, we'll all be playoff teams. And you know, when the big 10 is ready to expand, they'll be ready to take some of us. And that makes sense. And I'll answer a question that we've gotten the chat from Jason. He says, why, why wouldn't Washington and Oregon bolt for the big 12 that Colorado is leaving? And the media deal is primarily on stream. I know they prefer the big 10, but there's no sign that's happening. So here's why, because if you think you still have a chance to the big 10 down the road, you're not going to pay exit fees to the PAC 12. Now go to the big 12 and then pay exit fees to the big 12. Cause even if it's a short term time in the big 12 and it's a short TV

contract and you're just going to be there for one TV contract, you still have to pay exit fees. So they're expensive. So that's why. Well, I mean, there's also this thought that the Oregon and Washington might be able to negotiate their way into the Big Ten, right? I mean, if we're going to really play the game here, let's play it out, right? The Big 12 sort of stabs the Pac-12 and the Big Ten can swoop in and say, we didn't kill him, right? Right, which is exactly, they don't want to be the ones sued by Oregon State and Washington State

who are going to threaten lawsuits because there's nowhere else to go but the Mountain West at that point. But the Arizona thing and the Arizona State thing and Utah is kind of in this too. If you don't think a Big Ten offer, like Arizona is not getting invited to the Big Ten. That's not happening. But they're invited to the Big 12 right now.

So I don't know how you go to your board. I don't know how you go to your constituents and say, we want to take this deal that Klyavkov put before us when we know we can make more money right now and get better exposure with this other deal. Now, Arizona State is run by Michael Crow, their president, who is a true believer in the Pac-12. He's one of the reasons that Larry Scott stayed employed there

for as long as he did. So maybe that has something to do with it. Utah has at least publicly been very positive about the Pac-12. I'm not sure privately. Utah's got an interesting institutional history with conferences. Lest we forget, Utah in the president's office in the early 2000s or maybe the late 90s, the Mountain West was formed by a bunch of schools breaking away from the WAC led by Utah. So let's not pretend that they're going to be too precious about conference affiliation when it gets down to it. You know, I find myself with Utah.

These things matter. I don't know if they matter as much as money. Money matters the most, but these other things matter too. Does Utah want to be in the same conference as BYU? They really want to be. I don't think they mind playing BYU, but do they want to be in the same conference as B-White. I don't know, but I'd love that. As a viewer, that'd be amazing. Oh, sure. Yeah. Force them to play every year. That's great stuff. But I do think that's a fair question. Here's another question I'll pose to you because I posed it to some other sources I've talked to. What is the value of stability in a completely unstable world? Because we heard that out of Colorado. Stability, stability, stability. And the Big 12. Who's getting poached out of the Big 12 at this point? Well, no one. Right.

They are stable because they are all very similar. Without question, right? They all look at themselves and they see similar values. We kind of know where we are. We kind of know where we're going. But I guess the only thing, I would pull the lens back on that a little bit, Andy, and ask this question, not whether the Big 12 is stable, but college sports is so unstable right now. In five or six years, the whole thing could look completely different. I say this tongue in cheek, but when the Saudis roll up and try to form a super league, I think there is so much uncertainty in the enterprise that you almost look, which is, I think, a benefit. If the Pac-12 can sell anything, what I would sell to its schools is,

listen, folks, just hang tight for five years. We don't know what's on the other side of this mountain. This whole thing could look very, very different in five years because there's so much uncertainty built in. Well, yeah, I think we're drifting toward what we've been calling conference Pangea on this show. It's common. And I don't think it's a good thing necessarily because it's basically the Super League.

But there's not much you can do about it at this point. And in our next segment, you're going to hear from the Florida State board chair. And some of the stuff he says, you're just like, whoa. Stuff's happening. It's happening. So that's the part. If you are one of these schools, you're trying to decide, can you be anywhere safe for the next few years?

Can you be anywhere safe? Cause it used to be, they'd always say this was a 40 year decision. None of it. Well, I don't know if it's a 40 year decision. No, there's no way it can be made a 40-year decision. We're showing Bo Nix B-roll on the video. For Oregon, this is not a 40-year decision. This is a decision about how long you can park yourself and where you can park yourself until the Big Ten's interested.

And here's the thing. If Arizona, Arizona State, and Utah decide, let's go to the big 12 they'll be 16 then why not at that point you're the big 10 you're not dealing the death blow to the pack 12 it's already dead you're just grabbing grabbing oregon and washington off the pile and you might be able to get them at a cut rate too right you might be at that point you tell them listen how much is how much was the Big 12 going to pay you? We'll pay you $1 more.

Okay, sounds good to me. We're in, or at least for the next six years, we'll pay you. A hundred percent. Yeah, you're going to get a reduced share until the next TV deal, and then you'll get a full share. And do you know how many schools will turn that deal down? One, Notre Dame. That's it.

No one else would turn that down. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, again, you know,

if you asked me to forecast this, I would say, I am not confident that this keeps the PAC 12 together. But again, maybe there's some other facts. I'm trying to sort of be devil's advocate here and throw some. No. And that's the thing that's hard because you do want to at least give it a fair shake but here's my issue with this

the pac-12 network i realized it was cable and satellite so it's one degree of separation but that is a subscription business yeah and there was not sufficient demand for that particular subscription business to make it as profitable as Larry Scott promised it would be. And that is kind of why they're in this mess in the first place. So the idea that you're going to turn around and have, and this is no offense to Oregon and Washington fans and Oregon State fans and Washington State fans. We know how passionate you are but the league that on the whole has the smallest and most apathetic fan bases you're expecting them to sell a bunch of subscriptions to generate their revenue that's not the place to do it. It's not that you don't have passionate fans. You just don't have enough of them. Exactly.

I always explain this. Yes, the SEC partnered with ESPN on the SEC network. Yes, Disney wields a big stick in the cable industry. But it wouldn't have mattered what the SEC did. Because when they created an SEC network, if there was a cable company that did not carry it in Alabama or in Mississippi or in Georgia or Tennessee or Florida, people would have threatened to burn down the cable company.

Yeah. Pac-12 fans aren't like that. There's not, or at least there's not enough of them. There's not enough of them that take that same approach that are going to be like, if you don't have this, this on my network,

on my carrier, I will find a different carrier. There's not enough of them. There are some, but there are not enough. Yeah, so that's the thing, that you're relying on those people to pay. I'm guessing the price point, if you don't want to subscribe to Apple TV,

is probably $100, $120 a year. If you're a subscriber to Apple TV, it's probably less than that. I love Silo Foundation. Ted Lasso is pretty awesome. Yeah, we have it. Yeah, there's some decent shows on there. Morning Show is a little pretentious. Listen, I haven't had the Pac-12 network, but I will get –

if this deal goes through, i will see more pac-12 games now than i have been over the last years yes because i'll get it for work but i will get it for work and i think i always tell i always explain to people if i didn't do this for a living i would still watch all these games i watch i would still talk about it as much this is just what i like to do but I'm not sure there's enough of me out there, casual fans who don't live in the Pac-12 footprint and didn't go to

a Pac-12 school. I'm just not sure there's enough to do it. It's a big risk. I think it's a big risk. Let's talk about one other thing while you're here, Ralph, because it's something that we are going to see more of. And we knew this.

Popped up late in the day, huh? Oh, yeah. As states started legalizing gambling, we knew this was going to happen more often. The NCAA has already revised its penalty structure to deal with players who are gambling on sports that aren't their own. You had the situation where Alabama's baseball coach got fired. A couple Cincinnati assistant baseball coaches fired in the same general probe. But now Iowa State starting quarterback Hunter Decker has been

criminally charged in a gambling probe. I believe he's charged with tampering. And according to the story, he was accused of placing quite a few bets, including a bet on a game that he was dressed out for. Now, he did not play in that game. It was the 2021 Oklahoma State game. But he didn't play. And we're showing a picture of Hunter Deckers playing against Oklahoma State. That was not the game we're talking about. He dressed but did not play.

But I believe I was going over the NCAA's revised penalty structure. I think you lose your eligibility if you bet on the sport you play and the team you play for. Yeah. They're trying to be a little more, I don't say lenient is the right word, but not be quite so draconian about, hey, you bet on Major League Baseball, right? I mean, they don't want you doing that, but they're trying to make it so the penalties are not so harsh. Whereas in this situation, yeah, this is exactly what they

don't want you to do. But let's forget about his eligibility for a second. I think what's also going to happen is with this case is people are going to realize creating an account to bet not under my name that you can't do that. Like the the the the legal ramifications of this, the laws around this are pretty serious. Like if you are trying to you you're, you're essentially sort of committing fraud here. Right. And that, and that's what, uh, it's interesting because we have a sponsor coming on board that has some wagering involved. And I signed up for an account tonight on their app and I'm just going through it. And I typed my name in as Andy. And then I realized it says, enter your name as it appears on your driver's license. And I was like, oh, we're dealing with gambling regulatory bodies. Right. Because in this situation, it sounds like what happened with Decker was

he was making bets, but the account maybe was under his, correct me if I'm wrong, I was a little tied up. It was under his parents' name, possibly, or one of his parents' names, or maybe a sibling's name. But regardless, that's sort of the thing that the regulators were fishing for with this whole Iowa, Iowa State thing that broke a couple of months back. And heard about, you know, possible criminal charges, possible legal problems, possible NCAA issues. And it kind of went underground for a while. But essentially what they were looking for and what was going to be the biggest problem was stuff like this. It was it wasn't necessarily, hey, you're underage betting or you're you're

possibly messing up your eligibility. It's that you were creating accounts that were fraudulent. And once you do that, now you're in serious trouble. You're not just going to be benched. Yeah. And so according to the Des Moines Register story, the complaint alleges that the DraftKings account controlled by Deckers, and that language explains what you're talking about, completed approximately 366 mobile or online sports ragers,

totaling, quote, over $2,799. And I don't know if that's a particular threshold in the state of Iowa. Could be. That's why that's the number. But this is the most high-profile athlete we've seen hit with something like this. And it's not going to be the last. But here's the thing. I get that gambling is now more common and accepted.

I just mentioned we're going to have an advertiser on this show. Gambling's involved. My old show, we had a casino sponsor. It's going to happen. It's a huge part of sports. And if you want to bet on, I think if you're a college football player and you're over 21 and want to responsibly put some action on an NBA game, I don't have a problem with that.

But you have to know you can't bet on the sport you play. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem unreasonable. I do all the things that you said about how it's becoming more socially acceptable and it's more accessible than ever before. I understand again, trying to be a little more lenient, loosen up the rules a little bit so maybe it doesn't cost a player an entire season if he bets on an nba game but this does not seem like that much to ask for like telling kids you cannot bet on the sport you're playing you can certainly not bet on the school you go to like all those things seem quite reasonable and like and not that difficult for a player to understand again I understand all the the hypocritical like the idea that's hypocritical

for the NCAA to have these rules and those arguments are all well and good I don't think I'm asking that much of my players on my team to just not do it on the sport that you love. It's not. And you've seen the poster in every locker room at every level. Don't bet on it. Right. Yeah. I mean, again, I don't think I'm asking that much for you. Hey, like if you're going to be on scholarship, don't bet. That doesn't seem like that's that difficult to trade off.

Yeah. I just, it's pretty simple but i imagine is if you're a young person everybody around you is doing it it's not the easiest thing in the world and we're going to see that probably probably more of it now early on and then we'll see it kind of tail off as people start to understand well we cannot we can't be doing this. Yeah. Unfortunately, Hunter Deckers has the, very well could possibly be the cautionary tale for a lot of college athletes right now. Yeah. Well, Ralph, it's been a joy to talk to you.

We got to have you back more often. So good to see you. And thank you very much for having me on the new show. It's going great. Thank you for listening because Ralph, one of the most dedicated listeners of the Ola Show, but the best part is he's always four or five days behind. So he's texting me about shows and I'm like, what are you talking about? When did I say that? And they're like, Oh, I said it like four days ago on the show. So he, uh, he

binged the first week of the show and I'm just, I'm so happy to have you back. Well, good luck with it, Andy. All right. Thank you, Ralph. When we come back, we move on. I don't know if it's realignment talk or potential realignment talk, but it's interesting. We're going to talk Florida State with Jeff Cameron from War Chant. Because if you're not a War Chant subscriber or a War Chant TV subscriber, which is their YouTube channel, that's on three's Florida State side is War Chant,

the longtime Florida State fan site, then you might have missed some really spicy quotes tonight from Florida State board chair, Peter Collins. We're going to play you some of those and Jeff's going to help make sense of them for us he's going to help break it down because he is in the thick of things in tallahassee we'll be talking knolls when we come back welcome back jeff cameron joins us hi jeff oh jeff's mic's not on we got jeff muted we gotta we gotta unmute you that shouldn't be the case you're back there you are come here good are we good oh yeah you can find jeff at j cameron show

on i'm still calling it twitter i'm sorry it's sure and warchant.com and Jeff, I'm sure that for you as a person who does shows, this past couple of weeks has been glorious. Yeah, buddy. You know, I've covered Florida State on radio in one way or another for 20 plus years. And yeah, you live for things like this because in the weeks leading up to camp, it's about position battles and depth charts and those kinds of things, which can get monotonous as you well know. Always fun and can be engaging, but it's kind of the same old, same old till you get out there and you see the guys in pads. To have this, quite literally Florida State's future,

up for debate and everybody wanting to weigh in on this topic and then having the board of trustees and peter collins willing to talk about it and be quite candid frankly and say more than i thought he would is uh yeah it's a gift it's a gift from the sports talk gods well let's start with peter collins and and you know this this dates back to february where there was a board of trustees meeting and michael offered florida state's athletic director is giving his report to the board as athletic directors tend to do. You know, that's part of a normal board meeting is they'll bring in the dean of this college and the dean of this college and the athletic director will come in and say, here's what we're doing. Here's the issues we're dealing with.

There were some very pointed questions to Michael offered, and I, I'm, well, I know it was somewhat performative, uh, but Peter Collins and Michael Offord had quite a back and forth about the situation with the ACC, the amount of money that Florida state gets from the ACC relative to what schools in the SEC, which by the way, Florida state must recruit against all the time and schools in the Big Ten will get when all their new TV deals kick in. And it rang some alarm bells in the SEC, or in the ACC, because it was Peter Collins and Michael Offord saying, hey, something needs to change here. They were screaming to the heavens. It was a clarion call.

This is untenable. We cannot sit idly by and watch as those that we chiefly compete against, as you said, Florida State is in the footprint of the SEC. They have to compete against the University of Florida, obviously Georgia and everybody in the area for recruits. And Florida State has done, and they're very proud of it, a great job over the years in doing just that.

But the further one sees themselves removed from an even playing field, economically, the more likely it is, as we all know, that that competition becomes one-sided. And Florida State recognizes that. You can't continue to try to compete at the highest levels when your opponents are pulling in upwards of $30, $40, $50 million a year more than you because you lose the race for facilities. And any coach you have that anybody else wants, especially at one of those schools, now becomes somebody you can't afford to keep because they'll

offer them more money than you have. So I think they recognize that come hell or high water, they have to get out of this conference. And it's why you see the hand-wringing. It's why you see the very public comments. Because sitting still and being threatened with the idea of a lawsuit if you tried to leave because of the grant of rights is no way to handle this situation. No matter what somebody else may think about the possibilities of winning legally in court and getting out from under the albatross of the grant of rights as Florida State sees it,

it's still untenable either way. You're better off fighting it through court because you lose no matter what if you sit still till 2036. And the other part of this that I found interesting, something that Peter Collins brought up tonight, NIL is a piece of this too. florida state's done pretty well with that here's where the nil stuff can florida state is good at raising money where that's where you can you can divert that to nil you don't have to directly do it but you can basically nudge nudge hey that money you're

going to give to us for that capital project give it it to NIL. The problem is Purdue or Mississippi State or whoever can divert that money more easily because they are getting so much more from their conference. And so let's hear, we'll start with Peter Collins talking about how well Florida State raises money that is not coming from their conference revenue share. And Florida State does a really good job of raising money outside of, let's say, the TV contracts. I mean, if you take our budget outside of, take the TV contracts out of it and you put us, say, in the Big Ten, I mean, we're probably, I think we're fourth in the amount of money that we generate in the athletic department. Same thing in the SEC. A lot of people don't realize that. So that's important. But here's here's the next piece of it.

Is it insurmountable? That's the word that was used in February. the question is is that insurmountable uh and what does insurmountable mean uh and i think today uh when you think about what we're going to where we're going to be next year with the sec and the big 10 relative to what we make like i said if you took our non-conference or non, take the TV revenue out of it, you know, we're fourth, I think, in both conferences in an amount of revenue that we generate. But once you throw the TV contract in, that gap is massive. And when the gap gets that large uh you know is it insurmountable and uh i think i said at our con at our meeting in um february that you know it's almost impossible to make up that gap and i think a.d alford said it's impossible and uh he's not wrong uh into you know Our boosters are doing an unbelievable job. Everybody's doing a great job of fundraising at the university. But we're going to be $30 million, $35, $40 million behind the other conferences. And so that's an insurmountable gap that you have to do something about. And I'm not, I'm not breaking any news there, I don't think. Jeff, what do you do about an insurmountable gap? How do you, how do you do that? How do

you overcome that? Yeah. And it compounds each year that you lose out by the tune of $40 million and it continues to grow. And, you know, clearly there isn't a path that is easily found to get out from under this. But what Florida State has chosen to do is make as much noise as possible. Yeah. And letting them know, I mean, Andy, if you go back to this, you and I have had this discussion and lots of people around the conference at one time thought that the grant of rights would be deemed, I think, lock solid or unbreakable, however you want to describe it. I'm not so sure people believe that anymore. I don't think Peter Collins and others at Florida State believe that. The question wasn't whether or not you could find an avenue by which to legally challenge it. It was that, do you want to? And Florida State appears to me to be willing at

this point, out of desperation, financial desperation, to be the villain. Somebody has to say, we're leaving. And if that means we're going to court, then so be it. Now, I don't think they want to go to court. Nobody does. Their hope, I believe, is that this will bring people to the bargaining table, Andy, that at some point, if it's inevitable that Florida State, Clemson, and maybe others are going to leave the ACC and that the ACC is going to continue to fall behind, wouldn't it behoove the ACC or ESPN, if you'd like, to get something for these assets before they make their way down the road? Yeah.

And that's the thing. We've seen reports. This, this is the part of realignment where stuff gets crazy. This week we see Clemson and Florida state to the big 10. It's a done deal. We have no idea. We have no idea if the big 10 even wants to expand. We've talked about the same thing with Oregon, Washington this week. We don't know, you know, perhaps the people at Florida State and Clemson have a better idea of where everybody else is, but they're not talking about that. And it's interesting, as vocal as Peter Collins was, he chose his words carefully when it came to talking about the Big Ten or the SEC. And I think you're right.

And the point I should make, though, is this is not just Florida state feeling this way. Clemson, Miami, and North Carolina absolutely are in their boat. I know there are other schools that have, that they've met with and that are unhappy in the ACC, but those four for the most part feel the same way. They may not be as willing to do as much about it as Florida State. Don't you think though, Andy, too, that there's so many angles to come at this from? Could Florida State not be reaching out in some ways or sounding the alarm to the Big 12 as well in saying that, hey, maybe not us, but there are other assets of this conference that you may want to talk to, such as Louisville, such as some of the other schools that we've mentioned, Virginia Tech, Pitt, whomever you'd like to point to.

Schools that likely wouldn't get the offer to go to, say, either the Big Ten or the SEC. To destabilize the ACC and have enough people to disband it, yes. You're trying to create a point of critical mass where then at some point all sides begin to talk. So, you know, Andy, I think at some point you're going to make enough noise that we're going to see somebody come to the table. And, you know, it hasn't happened so far. But I also think that Florida State will continue to sound the alarm. Well, and it is a loud alarm. And, you know, the stopgap the ACC has tried to consider is this unequal revenue distribution. They came out of the meeting in Amelia Island in the spring

saying we don't have the framework for it yet, but we've agreed to talk about it. Here's what Peter Collins said about that Tuesday night. So if you thought that they were suddenly singing Kumbaya on this, they're not. I think the unequal revenue distribution model, it's not going to get us there. It's just really not going to get us there. It's just really not going to get us there. Let's say that the unequal revenue distribution model, it gives Florida State, let's say, $6 million more a year. Okay. Well, now we're not losing 35, we're losing $29 million a year to our competitors. You could argue that's still insurmountable. And so I don't think that under the current way that people are looking at it, that we're going to be close the gap with an unequal revenue distribution.

Yeah, he didn't mention any words there like i'm not used to this from people who can actually this is a person who if florida state does find itself in a realignment scenario or does find itself trying to get out of the acc this is one of the people who will help make that decision don't you think though andy it's freshing oh yeah i like it I mean honestly go back to that board of trustees meeting uh that you referenced the second that happened where the performative give and take between uh Michael Alford and Peter Collins took place aware that this was on camera and being filmed and on YouTube and that everybody would have access to it. From that moment forward, we knew Florida State's intentions. Now they can have to play nice in public settings and you don't want to start

a public feud through the press while you're at a meeting in Amelia Island with other ACC programs and athletic directors. And, you know, to some degree, Jim Phillips is not, to a large degree, Jim Phillips is not at fault here. So there's not a lot he can do, and I think Michael Alford realizes that that would be beating a dead horse. Jim Phillips is going to have to represent the ACC as best he can. He may have a losing hand, but he's certainly not going to kowtow to Florida State or anybody else in this situation.

He's going to try to prop up the conference, as he just did in Charlotte. I just came from those meetings. And he spent a lot of time talking an awful lot about lacrosse and soccer and the championships that were won in non-revenue sports and I can assure you that did not embolden anybody to stick around um this is Jim Phillips may not be there either he's named in an awful lot of lawsuits at Northwestern right now. Right, right. So I think that you walk away from the thing at Amelia Island, you walk away from the ACC kickoff that just occurred, and you realize that this feels inevitable. The hows and whys and whos and what's real and what's not and what are the possibilities and the legalities, this is all up for debate. You get a

lot of, I'm sure, emails and calls, as do I, from lawyers and people who would pretend to tell you that this could happen. We don't know. I don't know that. But I do know that they're not going to be quiet. And around every turn, it gets louder. Well, he got the question about the grant of rights, which is kind of the key question. That's what everybody wants to know about.

What do you do? Do you have a handle on the grant of the key question that's what everybody wants to know about is what do you do what do you do you have a handle on the grant of rights because that's those were the words that he used back in february that everybody was like oh really because people have been studying these things this thing for years and a lot of people didn't think it was possible to get out of it so let's let's just hear peter collins answer on the grant of rights question. You would be very disappointed in us if we didn't spend a lot of resources, financial and human resources, understanding the grant of rights. You would say that it was sort of malfeasance if we didn't understand the grant of rights.

So when I say we have a handle on the grant of rights. We understand the documents very well. We understand our position on those documents. We understand the legal arguments in that document. We understand who the actual parties would be under those documents. And we believe we have, you know, I think that I said it best. I mean, we have a very good handle on what our risks are under that document, what our opportunities are under that document. And that's the least of my worries. And that's based on what we know.

So when I say we have a good handle on it, I mean, we understand it. We have gotten a lot of counsel on that document. And that will not be the document that keeps us from taking action. And I'll leave it at that. I want to follow up on that real quick, because one thing I've noticed, you know, as a reporter, we were observers. And one thing I've observed is the tenor nationally, like six months ago or beyond, when a lot of college football media experts like us, the two experts you're talking to right now, would say things like the grant of rights was, you know, ironclad,

nobody can move 2036. There's nothing that can change like everything. And it seems like those talking points have kind of faded a little bit. Is do you, do you, I would agree with that. Right. Very interesting.

And least of his worries. Well, that was the part andy right yeah he said that i listen i was watching along with everybody else and i thought the same thing wow to phrase it to coin it you know to say that's the least of our worries is fascinating and that is ratcheting up certainly uh the intensity of the conversation and the necessity to leave in a way that hasn't been done before. At first, there was the messaging, hey, we're not happy. You may want to get out from under this, to maybe we need to talk about other streams of revenue and uneven distribution, to yeah, we've had a good long look at the grant of rights. We understand our opportunities, and it's the last thing that will keep us from moving that is a fascinating way of describing the grant of rights and what they've been counseled on

regarding it well let's throw a date out there for everybody and this is not just a Florida state date this is a Clemson day to North Carolina day to Miami date Augustth, if you hypothetically wanted to leave the ACC and play at another conference in 2024, you would have to notify the ACC by August 15th. So either something will happen by then, or there will be some hornetsness on some message boards on August 16th. Yeah, you know, the hard part there, Andy, is I don't know if the end goal is to be playing somewhere else by 2024. They would welcome it if it was a possibility.

But it might not be, yeah. It may not be, you know, and I cautioned my listeners today that I'm not so sure that Florida State is going to be playing in another conference next year. Now, they may be in 2025, which obviously is a very different timeline than 2036 yes and so i think 2036 jeff we better have flying cars and jetpacks

seriously we could do this interview from each other's houses as we just fly yes we'll teleport yeah and just make it happen by doing it together yeah i i will say this, and I don't speak for Florida State, but it certainly seems to me with the way conference realignment has worked recently and certainly the now rhetoric that we're listening to on a daily and weekly basis, there is zero chance Florida State will be playing in the ACC in 2036. Where it gets interesting is where we begin to debate how soon could a negotiation happen or would it happen? When would ESPN act? When would Fox act? When would Florida state feel emboldened? Is there a dollar amount? Is it $500 million? If $400

million grants you the right to walk away all in on $400 million, I think they would do it. I think they want do it i think they want to know a number andy well i just wonder if florida state's going to go it alone because i know that there are other schools that have looked into this that feel the same way the question is are they going to be willing to to put themselves out there publicly and try to do it well one of the problems is that nobody wants to get sued. Correct. Syracuse and BC could get real litigious real fast. Yeah. And also if you're a conference, let's just say hypothetically that is interested in

grabbing an asset like Clemson or grabbing an asset like Florida state. You're going to be very careful that that is not documented in any way this would be the classic back alley dark room hey you've got a landing spot we'll help you out with some of the finances if you can untangle yourself from the grant of rights but there would never be an official offer it would always be an off the record offer it has to be or else the acc would come after those conferences well i mean arizona has an offer from the big 12 right now, but it's not an official offer. I mean, the only way that would work is Arizona would have to withdraw from the Pac-12, ask the Big 12.

It would be the same thing if Florida State wanted to leave the ACC or anybody else wanted to leave anywhere else. So there is an order of operations to these things, but you're right about that. I would not be surprised, though, if those wink, wink, nudge, nudge back alley conversations are happening. I don't know how they couldn't be because we know that North Carolina is, is very desired. For example, I would, I think it's a educated guest. You've got context clues. You have conversations with folks in the business and have for years, North Carolina would be valued by both,

I think, the Big Ten and the SEC. Yes, there would be a nice little tug of war if suddenly North Carolina was a free agent. Yeah, and I think that there are others. Florida State may be one of them. Clemson may be one of them. I think it stands to reason. And so, yeah, I'm quite sure that there have been some sort of conversations, unofficial, about the possibility. And I think the second that there's a number that Florida State would be comfortable with and there's a real opportunity, then all of a sudden you get people coming to the negotiating table. I think that is their hope. Yeah, and the number, I think, could be pretty huge because we are talking about between now and 2036.

This is not like Texas and Oklahoma trying to get out of an extra year in the Big 12. This is a long, long time. We could be talking 12 years, 11 years, 10 years, depending on when all this happens. But, Jeff, it's fascinating. I cannot wait to see what happens next. There's a Board of Regents meeting at Florida State tomorrow. Now, Collins was pretty upfront about that. He said, while it was scheduled fairly recently, it is something they had from the board about athletics and the ACC and if they talked about it. Yeah, he seemed to indicate that he wouldn't be surprised at all if there was some sort of open dialogue about the possibility of leaving the ACC. Certainly that is going to be a question that comes up forevermore until it happens. I mean,

this is going to be something that they have to field in terms of a question, and they welcome it because it's an opportunity to launch into whatever it is they want to push in that moment. And I don't mean that as a derogatory thing. I think that they're interested in creating a narrative and consistently pounding that narrative that they're open for business. They're ready to get out of the ACC. They've made it abundantly clear. Cannot wait to see what the next shoe to drop in Tallahassee is. Jeff Cameron, I'm sure we'll be bugging you again very soon.

I love it, buddy. It's great to have you on board here at On3. Be good, Andy. Thank you, Jeff. That's Jeff Cameron from War Chant. If you're not already subscribing to War Chant, you're a Florida State fan, what are you doing? Get there. Get in that

Tribal Council message board. Find out what's going on with realignment. They're very plugged in over there. They can get the board chair to come on and answer their questions very candidly. That's how plugged in they are at War Chant. Very interesting night

in Tallahassee. Got that board meeting. We'll see what happens next. When we come back though, there's an interesting dynamic at play in the NFL. I know what you're saying. This is not an NFL show, but have you noticed what's going on with the running backs and the complaints over running back salaries is that going to trickle down toward the top recruits anytime soon we talked on three's josh newberg about that and he had some really interesting things to say. Joined now by on threes, Josh Newberg. And it's one of those situations where I was watching what's going on in the NFL and thought, I need to talk to Josh about this because this feels like something that's going to trickle down to the recruiting world. I was watching all the drama between Jonathan Taylor and the Colts. I saw the Jonathan Taylor tweet that said, my back's not hurt.

You need better sources. He wants a trade. Josh Jacobs is holding out. All the running backs saying we need more money. We're not being paid fairly. And it is a big difference. And so I wanted to bring on Josh because covering recruiting, I'm curious if, Josh, you think this is going to trickle down

to high school running backs who are about to go to college who may say you know what maybe I should play safety or corner or linebacker the short answer is yes it hasn't happened yet because most things that happen in the NFL kind of do take a couple years to trickle down and I would say right now, you would probably be an incoming freshman in high school. That's thinking about this, because if you're already a recruit and you already have a ranking, or you already have established, you know, I'm a running back and you're heading into your junior year, meaning you have two more years of high school left. You're probably not, this probably isn't

going to impact you, but I do think high school prospects coming up in the system now that are, you know, hitting JV football. Well, Hey, maybe he's a running back and he's really athletic, but he takes a look at linebacker, maybe corner. Maybe you just play quarterback and keep the ball in your hands until you can really define what you want to be. You know, that's what they do in youth football. The best athlete just plays quarterback. Yeah, so he gets the ball every play. Yeah, we're seeing a little bit of that right now. LSU took Jawan Johnson.

He's an offensive weapon. He could be a corner, but he plays quarterback in high school, and LSU took his commitment as an athlete. So I do think that there will be a trickle down, but I don't think we've hit it just yet, Andy. Yeah, that's what it amazes me. And let's look at some numbers because the franchise tag in the NFL is probably the best way to explain the difference in what players make. And this is what Jonathan Taylor is complaining about.

Josh Jacobs, Dalvin Cook doesn't have a job. He could have a job probably. But why put your body through it if they're not going to pay you top dollar, which they're not. So a running back's franchise tag is the average of the top five salaries at a position in the NFL. So the running back franchise tag right now is $10 million, which is a lot of money, but that means you're basically one of the best five running backs in the league. And it goes way down from there. But if you're a safety, $14.5 million. If you're a linebacker, $20.9 million. If you're a corner 18.1 million we're talking significantly higher and

you can you can scale that down you can so basically you can say a corner of the same you know level if you're the 16th best corner you're going to make 80 percent more than the 16th best running back yeah it's kind of kind of incredible. And with an incentive like that, you know, the trickle down will happen. The trickle down is not here yet because of the reasons that I said, but without a doubt with numbers like that, I mean, the running back position,

there's still going to be running backs. Because like you said, a $10 million franchise tag, that's nothing to really shake a stick at. But in the grand scheme of things, playing another position or just the ability to play another position could help and a lot of times when college coaches recruit they like to throw the idea of playing multiple positions out there and we don't really see that all that often I mean for for every champ Bailey you know everybody gets promised that champ Bailey role role or the Woodson role where you can catch some balls, but you're going to play defense and this and that.

And everybody. Justin Hunter. It's all over the place. There's very few examples, but I can tell you almost every five star and every four star gets told by the coach. Yeah, you could come in here and play multiple positions well now maybe if you're a running back that might happen I remember in my first job covering Tennessee there was a situation where a player's dad got mad and he released a bunch of handwritten notes that Philip Fulmer had sent his son this this player was a

running back and it was like I promise you 20 to 25 carries a game blah blah blah blah which is the sort of thing running backs wanted to hear back then i can can you imagine that now because part of the deal with running backs is hey don't take too much tread off my tires i remember talking to nick saban about this like 10 years ago and he said now this is pre derrick henry he, basically, we recruit to say, hey, we're not going to overload you. We're going to limit your carries. And he was very far ahead of his time on that. Yeah. And, you know, it would now be used as a negative recruiting tool.

Like if you're picking between Alabama and Florida and the Florida coach says, I'm going to run you 25 times a game. Alabama's going to come back and say, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going to run the ball 25 times a game. We're going to give you 13 carries and five catches. And now if you're running back, you're like, I want those 18 touches over the 25 touches. And it's not even a debate. Can we make it nine and nine? That's what you're saying. And that it's amazing. But, and the other piece of this that they don't

talk about in the NFL, but this is the reason running backs reviews expendable. It is the most violent position to play. You are in a car crash every single play. And you can say, well, the linebackers, the guy hitting him, it's the same thing you don't have multiple as a linebacker you're getting blocked but you don't have multiple people hitting you from multiple directions at the same time yeah and i think a lot of these running backs are also i think the first position they're going to double at is slot receiver yeah because we're seeing it in seven on seven. In seven on seven, if you're an elite running back, yeah, you're on a seven on seven team, but you're playing a wide receiver position.

There is no running of the football in seven on seven. So they're getting a lot of opportunities to catch the football, not just out of the backfield, but as a slot receiver. And I think that position right there, you can run screens, you know, the basically extended handoffs out of the slot, out of the slot position. You can motion from the slot into the backfield from the backfield into

the slot and i think that is the most likely kind of duo combo of positions if you're a running back and i've seen i've seen a lot of that take place now well and christian mccaffrey is the perfect example of this christian mccaffrey could be and it's weird that we're talking about a 49er because Debo Samuel's sort of the same thing, but came out as a receiver in college. But Christian McCaffrey could be a slot receiver full time. He has that ability. And so I do wonder, yeah,

if you're going to kind of push toward that, if you're a big time recruit, because that can make you more money down the road and I think it's an easier transition than going from a running back in high school or running back in college and then thinking you're just going to play DB or thinking that I'm going to play linebacker now you know there's so unless you did it in youth football I think it would be really hard to transition from the offensive side of the ball to the defensive side of the ball. But with, like I said, the seven on seven circuits, camp circuits, all these things, running backs are catching a lot of passes in the offseason.

Even if they play in a primarily running scheme in high school, they're still catching a lot of balls. So the wide receiver franchise tag, I'm sure everybody's wondering, 19.7 million. So essentially twice as much as what a running back makes and so if you have that decision to make and i think you're right because you we were we were going down the list of the top class of 2024 guys and the sizes are they tend to be 5 10 200 pounds the that type that type of athlete you better be super fast and play corner, or you better be a slot receiver. Yeah, and I just think the slot position is more natural. You're not going to really go out wide and be a number one wide receiver,

but in these offenses, especially in the spread that a lot of teams are playing these days, I think a running back can be an easy transition. Back in our day, Andy, the Derrick Henry debate, and even before that was the Derrick Henry debate and even before that was the James Wilder debate and it was always like is this running back at the end is this running back should he be an outside backer and I don't think future conversations are going to surround that as much as they are the slot receiving position I do wonder if James Wilder wishes now that he hadn't played running back at Florida State because he might have had a better shot at an NFL career.

The Derrick Henry thing is such a weird one because he's a cyborg. He's not a normal person. He's not a normal running back. But Will Muschamp got crushed when he was Florida's coach because he suggested to Derrick Henry, we can have you rushing the passer. He might have made him more money in the long run except derrick henry i don't to me is like the one running back you can give a second contractor a third contract to because again he's a cyborg nobody else is like that no and and like you know everybody likes to poo-poo on all the people that said maybe derrick henry should switch positions

but you know for every derrick hen, there's a James Wilder. And James Wilder was a great running back, a five-star, coming out of Plant High School, chose Florida State over Georgia on signing day. But James Wilder really never – he only had a college career. And he was kind of a B-back in that Florida State system when he was there. Now, if he did play outside linebacker, if he did play DN, would he have extended his career longer into the pros i don't know now i think of a guy he played alongside who sort of went the other way

carlos williams was a safety but he wasn't good enough to start at safety on that team that was loaded with nfl talent but he was a good athlete so they moved him to back to running back and it gave him a little better chance but i think any any made made it to the NFL he would have never made it to the NFL talking to Jeremy Pruitt who was coordinating that defense that year he just couldn't see it he couldn't pick up on what was coming at him fast enough and he just wasn't going to be a safety but he was just an athletic freak and he moves to running back and he was like see the hole hit the hole I mean he was great on kickoff returns he was great as a running back and he actually had an NFL career with the Buffalo Bills now some something set him back but he was he was on pace to maybe be rookie of the year well

and remember Jarrett Jack at UCLA when they they just put him in at running back we're like oh here you go 150 yards but he knew where his bread was buttered come draft time he's like no no I'm a linebacker let's let's let's, let's not play around. I mean, now he would have made a couple of $10 million more than he would have made at running back. Well, and here's the thing. It's so counterintuitive because we think about when, when your kid, when you're a kid, when you're in middle school, when you're in high school,

you get to be the guy that scores the touchdowns. That's who everybody wants. And if you play fantasy, running backs are so important, but then you see the economics of it. And I just imagine, and I'm sure you're seeing this now, if you're a coach at a modern day in California, St. Thomas Aquinas in Florida, IMG Academy, that sort of thing, you're advising people, hey, there's more money in slot receiver if you're that body type, receiver if you're that body type,

corner if you're that body type, if you're a bigger back outside linebacker. I would imagine that we're going to see that over the next few years. Oh, yeah, absolutely, especially at the powerhouses that you talked about because really those – not every high school should be worried about this, right? But a modern day or an IMG is essentially like a prep a prep school getting you ready for college football and if that's something that's on the table if you're a back that maybe was a corner or maybe that can catch the ball really well it might be advantageous for these high school coaches to maybe nudge somebody in that position or just give them extra reps at another position he could still be your starting running back, but get reps at corner.

Well, and he's non powerhouse high schools. They're probably playing both ways in high school anyway. That's a good, so there's, there's a situation where, okay, he may be a better back, but if he looks like a core, it's, I go back to something and it's before all the scandal stuff, Art Riles said this to me and I thought it was very interesting. He said, I don't understand why all these six'1 receivers play receiver in high school. Why don't they

just ask their coaches to play corner? Because a 6'1 corner makes a lot of money, and a 6'1 receiver usually doesn't. But Andy, they don't score the touchdown. I know. Well, I hate to say it, youngsters, you may have to look at franchise tags before you decide where you want to play. And I know that sounds weird, but yeah, Josh, I'm fascinated about this. I'm so glad we got to talk about this because it's one of those things that as soon as I saw it popping on the NFL news, I was like, you know, I bet there's some smart recruits right now that are going, hmm, I'm an athlete, but I might cross this position off. Yeah, and they all want to play other positions. Coaches always offer them that in recruitment, so we'll see if it happens.

But I do think the trickle-down will happen. It just hasn't occurred yet at the high school football level. Cannot wait for the log jam at slot receiver. Let's go. Yeah, it's going to be nuts. I do think, though, that there's been so many athletes that can do so much now with the spread because they've been implemented into these offenses.

Like, it took a couple years for all the high schools to run spread, and now all the high schools are running spread offense. But it took three to four years for everybody to kind of come along and say, Oh yeah, this is the future. I think it'll be very similar here with this.

I just can't wait for this specialty fullback training. It's going to basically, there's going to be like four NFL coaches that still need fullbacks. And there'll be four colleges that have fullbacks and the, the fullback recruiting complex will basically look like long snappers. Or there'll be like two guys who train them and rate them. backs and the the fullback recruiting complex will basically look like long snappers or they'll be like two guys who train them and rate them i was gonna say the fullback position is looking very much like the long snapper position it comes down to like hey at least once every two to three

years a team's gonna take one yep and give them a scholarship for it well Well, and, you know, years ago, if you were Nebraska's fullback, you're the biggest star on campus. This is fascinating, Josh. Thank you so much, and we'll talk to you again soon. All right, Andy. Thanks for having me on. The great Josh Newberg

talking recruiting dynamics. And by the way, if you've enjoyed this show, if you've enjoyed Ralph Russo and Jeff Cameron and Josh Newberg talking recruiting dynamics. And by the way, if you've enjoyed this show, if you've enjoyed Ralph Russo and Jeff Cameron and Josh Newberg, hit that like button, hit that subscribe button. Make sure, you know,

when we're going live, we're going to try to go live two or three times a week. At least we weren't going to go live tonight. And then Arizona scheduled that border regions meeting. The Hunter Deckers thing happened. And we're thinking, okay, let's, let's just go live and we'll talk to everybody as we go. And we'll be doing that as news happens. And it's fun when we get to do the show with you.

Our extra point tonight, not as fun of a topic. We're just wishing Julie Venables good health. If you didn't hear today, Brent Venables, the head coach at Oklahoma, announced that his wife Julie has breast cancer and underwent surgery last week to hopefully get most of it and take care of it. But here's Brent Venables talking about what's going on. We got a diagnosis on June 16th that was knock you off your feet and one that, you know, takes me back to talking to my mother in January of 2005

and having a, you know, a stage four conversation. And one of those, you know there's no you know blueprint on how you handle that but you know you know our real sanctuary and our you know true shelters our faith and the power of prayer and with so much support and I appreciate everybody here that has reached out you know it's been you know nothing short of amazing, the group of people that have helped, whether it's the doctors or administration, people I work with, our staff, our players, our parents,

and certainly so many friends in the Sooner Nation. So it's been great. So she had a surgery on Friday morning, and we're hopeful that we got everything and we maybe can avoid further treatments such as radiation and chemotherapy. We'll find that out in the next several days. But we think it's not in her lymph node, So that's a great thing in that cancer world. So right now it was contained. And so now we're trying to help strengthen her

and get her back on her feet. So appreciate, she's tough. And as I said, she's a honey badger and she's got a medical background as a former nurse. And so she already knows the answer to the question. So get it right, doc. And so she's amazing. So let's all send our thoughts out to Julie Venables

and the Venables family and hope you get better. It's not the happiest way to end the show, but it does sound like things are looking up now, and good luck to the Venables family. Tomorrow, barring crazy realignment news. If there's crazy realignment news, we just rip everything up

and we start over. But we've got a great show for you. Cooper Beebe, Kansas State offensive lineman, maybe the best interior offensive lineman in the country, explains why he came back for another year until the Little Apple. And remember that picture of that plate at the Michigan recruiting weekend this past weekend?

We brought on a professional pit master who also cooked for a recruiting weekend this past weekend in another school to critique that plate and then show us what he made as he was trying to to get those five stars to go to his alma mater talk to you tomorrow