Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 107: Justin Osborne (Susto)

Episode Date: December 1, 2020

Happy Tuesday you beautiful babes. Andy's back in LA with UPDATES for y'all. And on the Interview Hour we welcome Justin Osborne from WSP show favorite, Susto! A quick google reveals the definition of the word Susto as: "soul loss through magical fright," and how appropriate that Andy should peer thru the mind of songwriter, Justin Osborne to discover what makes him tick. Have you listened to Caleb Hawley's new record yet? Stay vigilant out there in this pandemic. This is EP 107. Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For more information on Andy Frasco, the band and/or the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com Check out Andy's new album, "Keep On Keepin' On" on iTunes Spotify  Follow the shockingly good, Susto at www.sustoisreal.com Listen to Caleb Hawley's new record Here Produced by Andy Frasco Joe Angelhow Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: Brian Schwartz Arno Bakker

Hey, it's Schwartz. Listen, I just listened to the last podcast and you keep mentioning in your talking about 14er dispensary, you keep mentioning how you love their marijuana because their cannabis because it's non-psychoactive. And I think you may not know what that word means. Non-psychoactive means it doesn't cause an effect on your mind. It doesn't change or alter your mental state. And so please, I think you need to rephrase your wording there. I mean, essentially,

if someone's going to have non-psychoactive cannabis products, that would be CBD. to have non-psychoactive cannabis products, that would be CBD. I'm under the impression you're smoking THC cannabis. And if I'm correct and you're getting high, that's psychoactive. So please don't misinform the consumers of 14ers cannabis. I'm sure that 14er would appreciate you telling folks that if they're going to smoke or buy 14er products, for the most part, they're going to get high. All right, bud. Get it right. Non-psychoactive is a word you should probably lose from your vernacular. Later. All right.

And we're back. Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast. I'm Andy Frasco. How's our heads? How's our minds? Nine months into this motherfucking quarantine, y'all. Do I got to play the music? Yes.

We're still in this motherfucker. Nine months. We're getting comfortable in this fucking quarantine now It's insane We gotta stay focused Survive in advance baby It's like the March Madness This is like week 25 of March

Survive in advance Survive in advance Um Hope everyone had a safe healthy um holiday weekend hope everyone had a great thanksgiving if you visit your family hope you kept it safe you saw your grandparents double masked i hope don't want to get the old people sick that's why i realized i uh drove because i didn't want to fly to see my parents. So I drove 18 hours from Denver.

Got clean, you know. COVID's a new STD test, I'm realizing. Got clean and got to see them. My whole, my family bailed, but I showed up. I had to see my parents, you know. They're sad. You know, coming out here, you know, I're sad. It's, you know, coming out here and, you know, I don't really hang out with a lot of older folk in Denver or on the road, but

I came here to see my parents and I realized, you know, it is fucking probably scary for old people. You know, it's like, um, you get, it's, it's bad and you just got to keep it safe. You got to keep the older folk protected at all costs. Don't be running rampant in the streets if you're going to go see some old people. But it was nice to see my mom, nice to see my dad. It's crazy. They're locked in this bitch.

They're locked in their houses. It's kind of scary. it's crazy, you know, they're locked in this bitch, they're locked in their houses, you know, it's kind of scary, and I'm just hoping and praying for all the older folk and the people with shitty immunity and stuff and things with pre-existing conditions, you know, I'm thinking about you, you know, it's probably scary out there for y'all. And, um, you got, you got, I got your back and I know a lot of people got your back. So stay focused, stay safe. You know, this is a hard time for everybody. Um, but California is beautiful. I'm staying in my parents' house. I'm, uh, I feel like I'm 16 again, you know, I feel like I'm 16 again, you know,

you know, smoking weed and a block away from the house and shit and whatnot. But it's been fun. I'm having a good time. I had to fly back to Denver on Saturday to do the dance party. Shout out to everyone fucking still rocking the dance party with Shout out to everyone fucking still rocking

the dance party with me. There we go. My people. Trying to keep people happy, keep people entertained, keep people dancing through this fucking shit storm. We got another one,

I think December 18th, but I had to fly back to LA right after that and start working on the shit show. It's going to be crazy. We got sketches we need to film out here. And I'm basically going to be in Malibu, Los Angeles area all of December. Just working on these sketches.

And we got a real great team with us. We got Adult Swim helping us book the show. Got some great guests that we, um, we booked for it. Um, and we're going to do it for 10 weeks. Um, hopefully right. If we don't fuck this up, hopefully we're going to start every Thursday. Um, by January 21st is the first Thursday and we're going 10 weeks straight doing a traditional-style talk show. We've got musical guests, and we've got interview guests, and we've got sketches.

It's going to be fun. We've been working our ass off. Shout-out to Nick Gerlach, and shout-out to Kyle Ayers, the writing team of the century, and shout-out to all the musicians who are down to help. We got some great sketches from musicians sending in

sketches that we're editing and stuff. And they're awesome. So shout out to you guys. I'm not going to ruin anything because I want it to be a surprise. But it's going to be fucking awesome. So we're doing that. I got New Year's Eve. If that shit still happens, I don't even know. They're probably going to cancel it. But I hope they don't because we're doing three nights in Denver, Colorado.

It's pretty much sold out. I think we have, I don't know, a handful of tickets for each day. We're doing two shows a night. So go out and get yourself some Frasco and the UN if you want to do that. Been working on a lot of stuff I uh I wrote a song and we got a big gigantic on it which is going to be tight did a little collab with Big G and a special guest I won't tell you who but it's fucking big shit's popping I'm I'm pumped up about it but um you know I'll leave with. Before we start, we got Justin Osbourne, dude, from Susto. I interviewed him in Charleston.

And he's a good guy. I mean, I've been a fan of his as a songwriter forever, you know. And such a good lyricist for how young he is. And to hear his story is a fucking trip. I didn't know any of that. I don't want to ruin that for you either because it's a great interview. So Justin's on the show. Shout out to Justin hanging out, trusting me in Charleston and coming over to my Airbnb

when I was there and, you know, keeping it safe and stuff. And shout out to you, Justin. So, but I'll leave you this, you know, dreams. Just because of a little, a little curve ball doesn't mean we can't fulfill what we want to fulfill in life. You got to stay focused on what you want, what you need and what you, who you want to be, you know, because it's, these are the times when, um, when things are shitty or not the way we're supposed to be. And this is where you have to push through and still follow those dreams, whatever fucking dream you have.

Go get it. You want to fall in love? You're lonely? You want to start a new career? This is the time. We all got fired probably. This is your time to reinvent yourself. Reinvent yourself through the quarantine

is 2020's motto. We could talk about all the shitty things that happened in 2020. We could talk about all the weird and the unknown. But we should talk about how much this has made us better people inside. Because when you stop distracting yourself with all that other bullshit, all the social media, we're probably on social media more

because we're bored, but when you just take a step back and just stop distracting yourself with all those other minor shit and you start focusing about what you like, what you want, who you want to be, then we start growing.

And that's so important you know i remember uh last year november i went and came home for thanksgiving and i was just overworked i was burnt out i was just fucking sleeping or just getting drunk my parents house not talking to anybody not getting to know them you know as they, you know, you don't spend as much time with your parents or talk to them. And from this 2020 quarantine, I realized, you know, get to know the people that grew you up, you know. Get to know your sisters. Get to know your brothers.

There's going to be one day that they're all gonna be gone and you know it's sad and morbid to think about but don't waste time get to know the people you want to get to know get to know yourself get to know this life you know we could distract yourself all we can. Distract, distract, distract. But what's that going to do? Because when we're alone or if someone, knock on wood, passes away, we're going to regret not getting to know them. I feel that way about my grandparents. I really got to know them.

I could always have these ideas of what everyone else thinks of my grandparents or my family and stuff, but without having your own judgment, it's all stories. So don't stop getting to know the people you love just because you're busy or just because you want to get distracted or get this fucking 2020 over with. I'm telling you, I'm over this 2022. I'm ready for a new year. I'm ready for it. Going into Malibu, going to be making some, some videos and, you know, start taking this talk show a little more seriously and professional and,

you know, so I could have different avenues. You know, you, we get stuck. We think that we're just one person. If it's a musician or if it's an accountant or if it's a boyfriend or whatever, we get stuck that that is all we have. And it's not true. Never get stuck in life. Do things to better yourself, to be more compassionate, to be more focused because you never know what's going to happen, you never know what's going to happen, so let's take these lessons that we learned

from Justin, from Susto, he had a crazy life, crazy life, he, I won't tell you it, but he was like moved to cuba i think it was cuba and um i got married quickly like out of randomly and was he's just had a crazy life and he wrote about it in his in his songs and i just can't wait for you to hear this so without further ado are you ready to have a great week tell me go look yourself in the mirror if be by yourself so no one thinks you're a crazy person but look yourself in the mirror and say you know what i'm thinks you're a crazy person. Look yourself in the mirror and say, you know what? I'm going to have a great week. Even if all this shit is happening, I am going to force myself to have a great week. Because I talk to my parents like, man, I just wasted a year of my life.

As you get older, you start thinking about that. You waste years. As you get older, you start thinking about that. You waste years. As you get older, you feel like you're wasting time. So don't waste time. Be the people you want to be. Be authentic. And I will catch you soon.

Let's do it. Are you ready to rock? Let's rock. All right. Enjoy Susto, and I will catch you on the tail end. All right. Next up on the interview hour,

we got Justin Osborne from Susto. Yo, play some music from my boy Justin. This guy's a bad motherfucker. Bad. Great lyricist, great songwriter, genuine dude. We related so much with each other because he was a pop punk kid too. He wanted this be signed to Drive Through Records and whatnot.

And I was working for Drive Through just full circle and I could kind of hear his indie vibes in his records. I didn't think twice about it, but now I got a friend for life and he's such a good guy. We're going to be writing songs together. But I hope you enjoy this life and he's such a good guy. We're going to be writing songs together.

But I hope you enjoy this interview. He talks a lot about regrets. He talks a lot about the person he wants to be now after this pandemic. You know, we're all different people through this pandemic. So I hope you enjoy it. Ladies and gentlemen, enjoy Justin Osbourne, or Sue Stowe. And she's gonna eat me alive With my skin and her teeth and my blood on her blue eyes And I don't know why I can't find a lover One that I like or one that really feels like home

Say goodbye to my daddy and my mother To all my friends and my three baby brothers, I'm gone I can't stay here no more, I can't stay here no more No, I can't stay here no more And when I'm awake, you know I see her in the streets She's not the one that I want, but she's the one that wants me And I get so scared because I see her all the time With her long black hair

and those bloody blue eyes She's gonna eat me alive She's gonna choke on my skin Gonna spit out my blue eyes And I don't know why I can't find a lover

One that I like, oh, one that really feels like home I said goodbye to my daddy and my mother To all my friends and my three baby brothers I'm gone, I can't stay no more I can't stay no more Where you from, where you from Where you gone to my love? Where you from? Where you from? Where you going to my love? Cause I Don't know why I can't find a lover

One that I like or one that really feels like home Say goodbye to my daddy and my mother To all my friends and my three baby brothers, I'm gone I can't stay no more, I can't stay no more No, I can't stay no more, I can't stay no more How we doing, Justin? Doing pretty good, Andy. Thank you for having me over to chat. Yeah, I don't really get to do in-person interviews.

Me neither. It's really an anomaly in 2020, I guess. Yeah, well, tell me about yourself, bro. So you grew up out here? I grew up in South Carolina, what I call the interior of South Carolina. It's not really that far interior. I grew up on the I-95 corridor of shame, as they say, where all the education's really bad. Yeah. But I moved to Charleston when I was 18 to go to military school,

kind of at my parents' behest. What'd you do? Dropped out and started a band. And they were like, fuck that, you're going to military school? Well, no, I dropped out of military school. They were just like, we'll pay for part of this if you go to military school. And I was like, well, I kind of want to go to Charleston anyway. So I did it for a couple of years.

It was an experience, but not really in my DNA, I don't think. Were you a bad kid? No, I wasn't bad. I was actually like a Christian kid, like a good Christian kid. I grew up going to Christian schools and playing in church band and stuff. And then I went to military school and that's where I took acid for the first time. No way. Tell me about that experience. But I just, there was this guy that was in, my company I was in was kind of known for being a little bit psychedelic. The company letter was, I'm not going to say it, but it was, you know, so it was like, that was, they embraced the LSD. But not everybody, I think, I shouldn't say that it was everybody, but it was definitely around.

And I took some, and I had taken mushrooms a few times, but then I was like in my barracks room at this place and like just took it, and it blew my mind. It lasted much longer than I was used to anything lasting, you know, but it was a profound experience. I actually didn't trip again for years after that. What happened? I just, I didn't have a bad experience. It just like, I was by myself, you you know so it was just kind of crazy and you know just had my mind blown I went I mean it was like the it was like sugar cubes like liquid on sugar cubes and I took two of them and I'd never taken anything before and like I mean I

still I'm like a microdoser now and I've had trips since then but like for the first time not really having anyone to explain anything to me and then just kind of being in a room in this place that felt half like prison, half like a military base, which is wild. I was so paranoid someone was going to catch me, and I was going to get in trouble because I would have gotten kicked out of school. Were you getting high during boot camp and stuff? No, I didn't even smoke weed then.

You just went straight to the L. I guess. I mean, they tested you for weed and it was easy to get busted and get thrown out for weed. So people would do other things. Like what? Mushrooms and mostly mushrooms.

But then when I came across the acid, it was kind of like a hippie friend of mine that was also in military school. And I was like, yeah, man, I'd like to just lose my mind one afternoon. I was on punishment, so I couldn't like leave the place. And so you're like stuck in your room anyway. I was like, well I'd like to just lose my mind one after I was on punishment so I couldn't like leave the place and so you're like stuck in your room anyway I was like well I can still have a good time by myself and like watch a movie or something and but it was just

like I blasted off I'm walking around it's like the walls are melting and it was uh it was cool it was awesome you write any songs no dude I couldn't uh I couldn't even I could barely function it was like just I was did not have a I feel like now I have a relationship with Did you write any songs? No, dude. I couldn't even. I could barely function. It was like just I did not have a. I feel like now I have a relationship with psychedelics just over time. You know, you kind of build that up. Yeah. And I just experienced it.

I mean, I definitely wrote after it. But, I mean, that was whenever I was like 20, 19 or 20. So, I mean, it was a while ago. I'm 33 now. No shit. So what was your first record well i i had a band that i started in high school it was called sequoia prep school it was like this like emo meets country type band yeah what'd you grow up listening to uh all kinds of stuff man like i mean i was definitely into like the emo pop punk stuff it was like kind of what was going on in my circle of friends and like when i learned to punk stuff it was like kind of what was going on in my circle

of friends and like when i learned to play guitar it was like you know power chords and green day and stuff like that but then um i started this band in high school i could barely play guitar but so every song was like two to four chords which not much has changed for soo still i guess but um but we had this kind of my space like regionally viral thing so like I went to like went from like not to just like playing but then we started playing shows and there'd be like a hundred kids there or something so we were like okay sweet so I kind of got a taste of that people singing

the lyrics and stuff and I was like so I did that like kind of on and off from the time I was 17 till I was like 26 and then I ended that band because it was kind of spinning my wheels it was a little bit disillusioned with the music business because i never really broke through never really had a team or anything like that just had like i said that kind of regional success

and uh yeah and then i ended that band i moved to cuba for like a brief time and started susto and then i came back and put out a record in like 2014. what yeah the self-titled that's one of my favorites cool thank you um tell me about cuba why did you go to cuba well i've always kind of like straddled the line of being in music but also kind of being in school i mean like like i was in the military school wasn't really the right place for me but like i have always had interests in different things other than music so like i went to cuba i was studying politics. I was studying Cuban revolution specifically and just like more broader,

like people's movements in Latin America. And so I thought I kind of went there to get away from music. I was like, Oh, you know, I got to put this stuff behind. It's just silly. I'm wasting my time. Were you jaded? I was jaded. Absolutely jaded. I've been booking my own shows and then getting there and playing for like 13 people for like four or five years. And I was just like, okay, it's time to hang it up, hang up the dream or something, you know.

But then as soon as I get to Cuba, like my first friends I make are in bands and they're like playing shows. And so I fall right back into writing songs and playing shows and even made like a little DIY record in this like extremely steamy like hot closet studio um but it was awesome it kind of reignited my love for music kind of I I put away all those like things that I wanted like like recognition or a record deal stuff like that and realized that I really just needed to enjoy playing and be thankful that I could do it and so it's kind of a reset button for me. I was there for like six months in 2013. Do you think when we think too much about the business,

we forget who we are as songwriters because it's all business? Absolutely. I think that was what my problem was. And I also didn't really understand the business that well, so I kept running into walls and stuff. Just taking a little bit of time off and and also growing up a little bit I mean like by the time I actually really started pursuing Susto full-time I was like 28 29 so I'd had my 20s to kind of like figure out who I was a little bit more and then so I was okay to like hit the road and do stuff so I dropped out of college again and then started Susto and I've been doing it.

Then I actually went back and I finished my degree online this past semester before COVID all hit. And so, but it's great. So I've always kind of bounced between the two. I'm very interested in all kinds of different things. I was an anthropology major ultimately. So like just different cultures and people and our, and specifically the way we, we all interact with the natural environment has always been really, um, kind of fascinating to me.

I can see that in your lyrics. Okay. Like in a sense, like I got a lot of questions. I'm a big fan, big fan of you. I appreciate it so much. So what, what first couple songs did you write in Cuba for that self-titled record? So when I went to Cuba, I had already had a few of them written. Like what? Which ones? I had like Dream Girl and Friends Lovers, County Line, and Acid Boys written already. Dream Girl is such a good song. Thank you.

That's kind of the one that made my Cuban friends be like, dude, we love this song. Why are you quitting music? You have songs like this. You should just either put out another album with your old band or start a new band or something. But down there, I kind of made good friends with this guy named Camilo. And he now lives in Mexico City.

But he was the first person I ever met that really kind of pushed me to write. And so when significant things would happen in my life down there, he'd be like okay we got to go write a song right now and i'll be like no man i'm let's just get drunk or something and he's like no let's go we can get drunk too but let's go write a song and it was good to have that sort of like presence in my life pushing me to because we wrote uh la mia and we wrote uh vampira 66 which neither of those are like hits from that record, so to speak,

but they definitely round it out and make it what it is. Because that record, what it kind of is about is just like the span of my life between like 24 and 28, like previous to Cuba and then being in Cuba and then immediately coming back. Because I also got in all kinds of relationship stuff when I was down there and I'm getting married and then quickly divorced. Hold on, wait, wait, wait.

Really? 2013 was quite a year for me. It was wild. Tell me about it. Oh, man. It's like, where to start? I mean, like I said, I decided to go to Cuba and I was going to be getting there like kind of right after Valentine's Day in 2013.

And so the end of 2012, I decided, okay, well, I need to just end my old band. So the end of 2012, I decided, okay, well, I need to just end my old band. So without even telling my bandmates, which I apologize, boys, I just booked some farewell shows. Without telling them? Yeah, but they all kind of knew. We went from playing a lot to playing a few times a year, and everyone was doing their own thing.

It was fine. Nobody really gave me a problem about it, but we did that. And so I used the money from that to like you know we just blew it out we're like this is the last time we're gonna see this place we did like three nights at this place in columbia new brooklyn tavern and uh i used the money from that to kind of like fund my trip to cuba and so you were already planning to go to i was planning to go but i need to figure out the money you know like and so then i went down there, and I was part of this program. I was there for like four months. At the very end of that is when I met my ex-wife, and we kind of met two weeks before I was supposed to leave.

So I was like, well, the only way we're going to be able to continue this is if we get engaged. So we got engaged. I come home to my house. That quickly, dog? I know, dude. It was fucking crazy. Damn. I come home to my house. That quickly, dog? I know, dude. It was fucking crazy. But I come home to my house and tell all my friends.

Because I lived in a house with like eight other people. And I told them, I was like, y'all, I'm about to go back in like a month and get married. And so I came back. I sold my van for my old, so I could go back again and fund that part of the trip. Went back, stayed with my ex and her family. They were very sweet people. I just kind of got myself in over my head. We had a wedding, and then the whole time I felt like, what am I doing?

Any of your friends or family there for the wedding? None of them. I remember my buddy Camilo, who was my songwriting buddy, who I had really only known at five months at that point. We were close, but he was my best man at my wedding, and his family was my surrogate family. But my family was like, what the fuck are you doing? We can't even go visit.

We can't go to that. It's Cuba. I had to sneak in. The first time I was on a student visa, so I went, but I had to sneak in the second time and then got detained on the way back because I come back with a guitar and a bunch of rum bottles stuffed in places they thought I was. And my story didn't add up. They're like, you've been in the Bahamas for a month doing what and

I was like okay okay I was in Cuba I got married please let me keep the rum and they they didn't let me keep it so what brought you back to your senses like this ain't gonna work who paid for the wedding like oh my god well I I did my van selling my van paid for it. And because, I mean... Is it a poor country? It's poor monetarily, yeah, but rich in a lot of other ways. But yeah, it was easy to make things go pretty far with like the four or five grand I got for my van, you know. And so, I mean, I was only supposed to be there that time for a month. And so I was there for a month, came back.

And at the end of it, I was just to kind of be like, okay, let's get the paperwork started. Let's figure out how to get you here. But then like, after I kind of like settled back into being back with my friends and like my life, that was actually my life before I went there, I just started getting really depressed and be like, what did I get myself into? And I was like, I feel like I had the weight of the world. I mean, cause I had like this whole, you know, group of people in Cuba that were like, you know, believed me at face value. He's like, okay, he did this. Like he's marrying our daughter. And like, you know, and you know, at one point I just came, I hate to even say this, but I even kind of got suicidal. Cause I was like, I don't know how to get myself out of this without it just being a mess.

And, but one day I just called her and I was like, listen, I, I made a mistake. And she was really upset, obviously. But we worked through it and we, we're not like friends now. It's not really hard to, it's not really possible to maintain that sort of relationship. Well, at least it wasn't for us, but we, but at least we're on good terms. And she understood we've talked through it since then too. And, you know, my second album, I wrote a song called havana vieja about my actual um wedding day yeah and after that she eventually heard that song and she said that actually helped her get a lot of closure too because she actually got to kind of understand what was going through my mind during all of it it was just kind of like a snowball

that just kept getting bigger and bigger. Why do you think, now looking in retrospect, why do you think you did it? I had been in this long relationship that was just toxic. And I think one of the reasons I was even trying to go was to, my ex-girlfriend that I was trying to get away from had her claws in me here in Charleston. And I didn't know where else to go or what else to do. I was like, maybe if I can just disappear for a few months like that what dream girl's about yeah it's about preparing to go to to cuba because like i couldn't um like when i wrote dream girl i knew i was going and i

knew why i was going and that's really kind of the depth of what but i was also really having a recurring dream about like being eaten alive by this uh ex-girlfriend yeah holy so i mean it's pretty literal shit but like did you grow up with anxiety i think so in hindsight yeah i definitely did like i what would get you anxious when you were a kid all kinds of stuff i mean my dad was like uh kind of high-strung entrepreneur but like just really, he had a temper because he never like kind of quelled any of his stuff. He didn't drink or smoke or anything like that. Well, he did closet smoke cigarettes for a while, but, um, he was just very anxious and he would kind of blow his top. Sometimes I got three younger brothers too. So like, and I'm kind of one of

the most mild manner ones. Like my brother right under me would push my dad's buttons and my dad would just freak out. And so like, I was was always things just made me anxious if things started getting loud or if like i don't know and i think maybe some of it's just genetic too i'm just kind of an answer yeah yeah um did you ever uh take medicine or go to therapy no i didn't um i music kind of became myself therapy i mean i think that's kind of why I started songwriting at an early age. It was like a way for me to unpack feelings and emotions and just everything in that spectrum of like kind of, it was a way for me to kind of, if not make sense of,

at least kind of exercise my anxiety. Do you feel like you're always alone? No, no. I've never really ever felt like that. I've sometimes, well, I take that back. The only time I ever really felt alone was when I was in Cuba that second time for my wedding. I felt really alone because I was around a lot of people that didn't know me really, you know, they'd known me for a few months, but they only knew this version of me I'd kind of put out, but I'm kind of like a, I enjoy being alone. I

enjoy like being by myself in quiet time and, and, you know, getting to be introspective, but I also have always enjoyed being around people too. And like, especially like creating communities around myself. Um, so I've never really felt alone. Like I said, it came from a reasonably big family and I've always had like tight friends that I did fun stuff with, like, you know, camping to, to music and, you know, stuff like that. And, and now in my life, I feel very at peace. I mean, I have like, after all that tumultuous year, like it was only a few months later, I actually met my wife, like my actual wife I'm married to now. I've been married to for a while. And we dated for five years before we got married and we have a beautiful little daughter. And I feel very lucky to have kind of made it

through all that and to found someone who I'm very well matched to and who we kind of have a good, solid thing going. So no, I don't think I always feel alone. I mean, I definitely know what it's like to feel alone, but been able to avoid it a good bit did you feel like you forced that relationship in Cuba definitely I think like I just thought like it was like I don't know it was also came at the end of the first stint there and so like I had been there and I'd had trouble connecting with women at all there you know like I made friends that I played music with everything but it was kind of hard for me to like hit on girls because my spanish isn't that good yeah and i can't dance and so like which they need that yeah you need it especially in

q everybody can dance and so i like i was just like not very confident um but my ex i when i met her like she spoke really great english like She worked for the BBC at the time, even though she was born and raised in Havana. So that kind of opened up my confidence a little bit. And she didn't really care for dancing. So I was like, oh, okay, this works. And then I was just so starved for communication with someone in an intimate way. And also on the sexual side as well.

Yeah, Cubans are freaks dong let's go i won't comment but yeah you can see on my face um so you know that i think it was forced but it also came from like being in this three months of um just feeling a bit uh out of sorts as far as relationships go so yeah it was forced It was also just me not having the sense to know that I should have just let it be a great thing for a couple of weeks and then go home instead of causing prolonged pain for her and her family and myself and my family.

It started a rift between me and my family because my parents take marriage very seriously. Religious. Yeah, yeah. I grew up in a very religious household and at the same time they were kind of understanding that i was walking away from that like i kind of had before that but that was like when i started being honest with them about it because i figured why not they already hate me for getting divorced so i might as well be like by the way i'm an

atheist or whatever yeah not that i still identify as an atheist but you know it was just you know why not get it all over with at once yeah dude what about end do what's your take on like something ending anything in life i think endings are natural i mean like i i i have uh made mental notes of things ending especially when i'm like okay wow this is ending this is ending right now. And you can realize, sometimes you don't realize something ended until it's been over for a while. But I think in general, it's a, like, at least in my life, it's been a good thing when things have ended. There's nothing that I've ended in my life that I regret at this point. I'm glad I ended my first band because it started me out on a new clean slate. I'm glad I ended my first band because it started me out on a new clean slate

I'm glad I ended my first marriage because it started me out on a clean slate I'm glad I ended my kind of connection to the dogma I was raised around because it kind of allowed me to just be more honest with everybody about my the fact that I don't know anything for sure

Were you afraid to be honest when you were a kid? Yeah, yeah, I really was and in songwriting too I was afraid to say how i really felt in songs because i was like my parents would listen to all my songs you know damn so they held you that they held a big yeah they also supported me too i mean they like you know they helped me play shows they would drive me to places to play shows and stuff they were supportive in that way but they it was hard for them to be supportive when the content started being something they weren't comfortable hearing yeah but being in Cuba actually really inspired me because I kind of found this um this genre called trova it's like a cognate of the word

troubadour I think but it's like it comes from the opposite side of the island than Havana because it's like I think it originally came to Cuba through Haiti it's like a French style of like confessional singer-songwriter stuff that's very honest, but also playful and kind of sacrilegious sometimes too. And that honesty, I kind of found that in translation. I had my friends translating the lyrics to me and be like, this is why this song is so good. And I was like, wow, it's powerful.

The honesty is something that was really inspiring to me. So that was kind of from the beginning with Susto was like, okay, I don't want to be afraid to say something because someone else might not agree with it. So that's kind of, that changed. That was a sea change in my writing, like from Cuba was just like, okay,

now I'm just going to really say what I'm feeling. And I'm going to try not to be like scathing or mean, but like, I'm not going to be dishonest or withholding because I'm afraid of someone else's reaction. Do you feel isolation helped with honesty? I think so. I do think so. I think even that like relative isolation of being in Cuba and just being away from the cacophony of voices I was used to hearing was helpful because it allowed me to just kind of... Because there, I was just like this entity. I was like, I wasn't Cuban. And at the

same time, I didn't feel... White dude from South Carolina rolled in. And they thought I was hilarious. Trying to take their women. I'm just kidding. Unsuccessfully. Unsuccessfully. But yeah, I would definitely say so. have you been to Cuba before? I've never been I always wanted to go I love the culture but I did that I went to Greece and I did that in Europe a lot I went to

Berlin fell in love with this girl stayed there for two months three months I have commitment I'm a commitment foe I I've never had a girlfriend. So I just have a bunch of one night stands. And you know, because I've, yeah, I tricked my brain into telling me that all I want to do is do 250 shows a year. Yeah. Yeah. I've been on that side of the fence before too. How do you, how'd you get out of it? I think at my core, I've been on that side of the fence before too. How'd you get out of it?

I think at my core, I'm really a monogamist, I guess. Even maybe not, I think maybe just in practice. But I don't know, man, I don't know. Because I definitely, and I wanted the same thing. I wanted to be on the road. I didn't want to be held down. But I think it really came down to my wife. Like my wife was not like any of the girls I dated. Like I had had girlfriends before.

I wasn't like afraid of commitment that way, but I would never take it past dating. I was never like even really that committed to my girlfriends, you know, in any way. But I did like the security of it. I think it's like maybe just my insecurities of being alone. Maybe I am more afraid of being alone than I even think. But then when I met my wife, like she was just all about me doing it.

She helped me kind of like get my first record out. Really? Yeah, I didn't have money to pay for the mastering. And so she like was a school teacher and like. Sugar mama. I know, she helped me pay for the. And my first tour is i didn't have a car all that was a dirt bike so she um she would let me uh borrow her little stick shift honda fit and go on like solo tours around and the first real tour i did we actually went together she quit her teaching job

and we booked this like 10 week tour around the uS. right after the first Sisto album came out. Did you have an agent by then? No, no. When did you start getting any buzz? I mean, the record came out in 2014. I think we got an agent in like late 2015. But I just like worked my butt off like between it coming out. And then like one was booking that tour and just kind of going out

and getting in the country and just making sure there were little seats planted but then also like regionally focusing on cities like atlanta and raleigh and charlotte and nashville and dc that were like within driving distance that you know mattered where i could like put a band together and get there and try and build fan bases and then also my buddy ben bridwell is in band of horses he lives here and he had kind of found the record early on because I was working at this bar the Royal American I was a cook in the kitchen and who is Ben Ben Bridwell he's the singer of Band of Horses okay songwriter singer yeah and he heard the album um just because his dad had heard it at the bar just playing and uh and then reached

out to me I was a big fan too so he reached out to me through email i don't even know where he got my email but saying hey let's do some shows and i was like fuck yeah so we um were they big yet yeah they had been big for a while and we just started doing some opening slots for them regionally i mean eventually he took me out in europe and stuff too and that kind of helped there but um it was whenever we went out he did this like uh split record with his friend uh sam being from iron and wine you know that so they grew up together and they did this like covers record and then they let me and the band open for like some of those shows and that was when like our booking agent kind of came along at the same point we were kind of getting like looks from management but but i mean we still put out a whole nother record before we even got like a record deal

did you what do you did you believe in that record so much you knew did you know i didn't believe that good yeah i think naively i believed in it like i believed like i mean but i'm i appreciate you saying that like i i the reaction to it still makes me really happy because it definitely came from a very pure place. But in a time of my life when there was a lot going on that I was just trying to get out and be honest about and organize, you know, in a way that was coherent in an album context. But it took a while for it came out of nowhere in Charleston. So it took a while for it to get on people's radar. And then took a whole nother album of, you know, that people could at least deem quality for us to get like an actual record deal.

So, but I'm fine with that. It was like, it's been fun growing this thing. And if it never gets any larger than it is now, I'm happy with it. You know, like I'm like, I get to play music for a living. And like, there are people that really connect to the stories and the songs. And that's like, that's enough for me. What's important to you? I don't know i mean i do know i mean my wife and my daughter are the two most important things in my life um but also i think uh man over the last six months honestly like my community has

become very important to me and i think it always was uh but being on the road you kind of become less of a local you kind of like yeah you're coming home but you're on tour like 20 like 250 days a year you know like you said and but being kind of forcefully slowed down has been really made me kind of just look around more and like i'm in like kayaking i mean like why haven't i ever kayaked i live in charles let's go big guy guy. Let's go. Let's get some kayaking in it. So, you know, like I, I love nature too. And I think I've fallen in love with nature again, but that the road really helped with that, you know, going through all these national parks and stuff and to see in the country

and also the world to an extent. Were you getting burnt out? I don't know. I mean, not really, because the thing is once you kind of have a system you do it in cycles yeah and and that doesn't bother me like now that but i also hadn't been a dad for that long so i don't know now being a dad like if i want to leave and be gone for like 10 weeks at a time like the last five years i was gone for at least three 10 week stints a year, you know, like, but it was, it was work and it paid off.

It like, you know, kind of paved a little path for us to go back to and stuff and play shows and keep the thing alive. But I don't know that after this, I'm going to want to, I definitely miss touring. I still want to go play shows and I really miss the performance of it, but I don't miss gas stations and sitting in the, I mean, we don't, we never done the bus thing except for when I've been opening for people. So like being in a van all day.

So you'll open for like, and they'll take you on the bus and you'll just do a solo set. I've done that whenever I've opened solo. Yeah. When I was with band of horses in Europe, that was what I did. And that was, it did and that was it was nice but it was also like you also kind of have to party with that band you don't really get your own like uh I don't know it's your own vibe yeah but it's all fun I think it's all good experiences and I'm thankful for all of it I just uh definitely been rethinking you like to do what you like to do

yeah yeah I guess that's what I like to do what What do you like to do? You like the Lakers, right? I love the Lakers. I love being on the road. I love doing this. Like if I ended my tour a couple of days ago and I just stayed in this town for five days, that kind of stuff. I like the Bill Murray model.

I love that. And that's also what's good about you, kind of like your lack of commitment because that gives you that opportunity. I've made like a family and a home. anytime if my family's not with me like at the end of a tour i'm like ready to go back and so like the the experiential traveling has i don't want to say diminished but it's changed um because you just like it more than you like your family more than you like that that's okay yeah but my family loves my wife loves to travel you know she loves that's one reason she's always been so supportive too is like because she's like man

i want to go to acl and and and all these and you know go to europe and you take her yeah yeah she's been out on a lot of stuff she used to be my tour manager actually for a while but how's that working with your wife um she was good at it but she you know it's not great to be married to your tour manager i don't think or even dating your tour manager it's not great to be smooching your tour manager because there's times you need to like yell at each other a little bit for better for worse do you feel like separation's important like to have each person has to have their own dream yeah I think um also too for us before we became parents like it was just not a bad thing for us to just like, kind of be away from each other a certain amount of time. Cause it made the time together more important. Um,

and yeah, like you said, it let it allowed us both to focus on what we were doing. Like my wife has since gone back to teaching and she teaches, um, seventh, eighth grade math, and she's really good at it and she's great. She's has a big impact on these kids she teaches. And, um, but you know, but she still likes to travel. One of the reasons she likes being a teacher is on the summer, she's like, all right, I'm hitting the road with you. And that's kind of what we do. So it's a good balance that we found. That's great. So what about, has it changed since you've had a kid? Yeah, because my daughter is not yet too. She's not even really a year and a half yet. So

the first year, we couldn't really leave. So she was born in the summer of 2019. And so I was kind of coming and going because I still needed to play to make money and pay bills and stuff. But she didn't get to leave all summer. Then this summer, we were planning on going to visit her family in Vermont and stuff and all these things.

And then COVID hit. So she's been stuck at home two summers in a row. So next summer, she's already dialed up. We're going to go. And it's hard to travel with a kid, but you just got to do it. You know, like we found that with everything we've done with the kids.

Like at first it's hard to even think about going to a restaurant. You're like, how is this going to work? Then you just do it and they're fine. And then, you know, you just, it's a difficult thing being a parent, but it's also like beautiful and it's a wave and like old things become new again.

And that's been a really beautiful part for me because it's almost like a things become new again and that's been a really beautiful part for me because it's almost like a refresh you know what's the most difficult thing you've learned about being a parent just the underlying fear of something happening to her yeah to my to my daughter yeah this like this new capacity for love that i guess was inside of me i didn't realize i had that just like the it really ignited the day she was born. But even before she was born, as my wife is pregnant and like, you know, there's obviously this thing kicking inside of her belly and stuff, just realizing that there's, you're responsible now for this person. It's, it's profoundly beautiful and fortunate, but also it like, there's like just this little thing in the

back of your head all the time. It's like, I hope she's all right. I hope she's going to be okay. Like, cause the world is fucked up um but it's also beautiful and insanely like special it's the fact that we get to live and exist is great and i want her to just be able to enjoy life i just like don't want the world to i don't know don't want the world to be too harsh for her or anybody i think it's also kind of like awakened and even deeper empathy in me for just humanity. But, um, cause we were all somebody's baby at some point. Yeah. When, when was it the time in your life when you truly fell in love with life? I think, um, honestly going back to that acid trip at military school, like, I mean, I, I loved

things before that. And I don't even think I realized that's what happened to me, but it really, I remember like being like tripping so hard that I couldn't remember like my, my home address or anything like that. And I was just like, I think just coming, it scared me so much that it made me appreciate reality.

Are you scared of death? No, no, I'm not not i um i don't look forward to it like i because i think life is really special and i don't not really sure that there's anything beyond it or any other so like you know i'm aware right now that i'm alive and and so i want to get as much out of it and live as long as healthy as i can but i also have bad habits that'll probably prevent me from like what are your habits like smoking and drinking and eating shitty food and stuff like i'm trying to curb it you know like i'm trying to eat better and drink less and you know be i don't know just better to myself so i can have more years with the people i love but i don't know have you ever had any near-death experiences? Yes. Yeah, I've had experiences with vehicles and motorcycles that were close, like close-call crashes.

Man, it's more than once. I was kind of a reckless person growing up, and I've flipped cars and come close to hard wrecks in other ways. And I've also like wrecked this dirt bike I used to have. I was, I would get drunk and ride it around. And it was like, there was a couple of times where I almost got hit by big trucks that

probably would have, if I wasn't dead, I would have been never the same. Yeah. And I've also, you know, had, uh,

I've been in situations where there were guns involved. What happened? I don't know, man. I don't want to... You don't have to rat anyone out. Yeah, they're just like... I mean, I've had guns pulled on me, and I've been in standoffs with me having a gun pulled on somebody else and them having one pulled on me before, too.

And weird shit that I was getting myself into early on in my 20s. And just drug- drug related but also dumb alcohol related shit like and I have friends of mine who have died because of slip-ups with firearms and stuff like that and um and some not slip-ups so you were reckless yeah yourself oh yeah and and I was even reckless with people I think too and i've i think the experience in cuba kind of helped me come to terms with that and not necessarily forgive myself for it but learn how to not do it what did you like about the reckless lifestyle that made you keep doing i don't think i liked it i think i just like didn't know how to find real happiness i think i was just like i had some surface level happiness because i had friends that I really loved and I still love that I could get fucked up with and write songs with or do whatever, take acid, ride around on bikes.

the music and kind of Susto becoming less of an idea and something in town and more of like a career, um, as much as you can call it a career. Um, it's totally a career. Yeah. I just like, you know,

it's a career, but it's almost, it's also like a gift too. Cause it's like, explain that. Well, I guess it just doesn't feel like I'm having to put a lot of effort in. I mean,

I'm putting time and energy in, but it feels fun. So like, but I guess that's, it's like, just means that it a lot of effort in. I mean, I'm putting time and energy in, but it feels fun. But I guess it just means that it's a career I love. Yeah, that's the thing. Why do we have to feel like when we have a job, we got to fucking hate it? I know. It's like, oh, fuck, I got a job.

But what if you like your job? I know. I think that's important. And I found that. And I still have itches I want to scratch as far as things I think that's important. And I, I, I found that and I still, you know, I still have itches I want to scratch as far as things I do in my life. I don't mean like I was telling you earlier, like right now I'm like taking some classes. I'm really interested in environmental changes and how, you know, what the future looks like for humanity in terms of the environment.

And there's a possibility I might do some stuff in that too, but I'm really at heart a songwriter. And as much as I can try to force my way into other things, like the lifestyle of writing songs and putting tours together and performing for people and talking to people about those shows, and then just kind of, I don't know, everything that goes along with it is what I'm used to doing. Because even before I was doing it with Susto, I was doing it on a DIY level, my old bands, and it's just something that I enjoy. But this year has been a time where it just

hasn't been available to me. So it's caused reflection. And that reflection hasn't led to any sort of distinct decisions. It's just made me look around i guess and figure out new things to do but do you think your parents always made you have a backup plan so in your mind you always feel like you have to have a backup plan honestly my parents didn't like my parents were so they live in they lived my mom's still alive my dad's passed but like they lived, my mom's still alive. My dad's passed, but like they lived in this world that was so

shaped by religion. That was like, it didn't matter. Nothing really mattered. Like they were never serious about my grades. I kind of just did okay on my own behalf, but like they, they thought the music was cool, but it was just like, all they were really concerned about was me going to heaven or not. And, um, so like future shit yeah they never really worried about me having a backup plan and also i think my dad had like a construction company so i think like they were always kind of hoping my plans would fail so i would just come home and work with him do you think that's detrimental to living presently what which part just always think like not worrying about anything you're doing now

just worrying about what's going to happen afterwards. Yeah, yeah, totally. I think so. And I think also like not, and not even just like what's, because we were living in the moment, but we were also like, as far as the end game, the end game was everybody was in heaven. So it didn't matter what the rest of life was looking like.

So it didn't make me really focus and take advantage of some of the opportunities I had earlier in life, which may not have put me in the same path now to where I'm doing what I'm doing. But I don't know. Who's to say, though? But also, my parents were just trying to do the best they could, too. I don't, like, fault them necessarily.

They're not bad parents. They just saw the world in a way that I can't see it in. But I don't know. I don't know. What do you think about that? I think, you know, it's like going back to your acid trip. The reason why it was the most important thing. Cause you're present.

Yeah. And you're like, Oh shit, I have to deal with these emotions right now. Right now. Not, not in heaven. Not even tomorrow.

Not even tomorrow. I got to deal with this right now. And that's that same idea where you breathe through your arms or you feel the blood running it's like we forget that life is right here right now absolutely like for you to fucking learn anthropology and just fuck yeah because that's what you like to do right now the moment is now there's no fucking we can't go on the road like yeah but you could put that into the songwriting right and have you in your new writings? Yeah, I mean, it's always been something. I mean, that's where I learned the term susto

was before I dropped out, like reading about different anthropological concepts. Like what? Susto is like a, it's a term that's used in Latin America to describe like when the soul gets separated from the body which is a spiritual way of describing it but like in non-spiritual way you would probably describe it as like a panic attack or maybe even ptsd um and so learning about that was like made me kind of internalize that because like maybe because at the time i was like you know going through all this

stuff in my life where i didn't feel like i was myself, like who I had been raised to think I was and what the world was wasn't making sense for me anymore. So I felt like, oh, I have this susto that I'm reading about. And so that's why I named the album and then in turn the band Susto. And then also I think just learning about how to not assume that the world only exists through the lens that you see it through was something that's very beneficial to me as as a writer but also just as a traveler

and like as a as a citizen of the earth yeah talk about that a little bit well I mean like I said I grew up in the south in a very rigid religious worldview and so like I mean the first things to kind of crumble were my views of the world being made in seven days and those types of things, which, you know, there's lots of different explanations for why we're here and, you know, what our purpose is. And kind of like studying that a little more, seeing what other people were throwing in the conversation, then also realizing that we, you know, just like I was referring to before, it's a thing called ethnocentrism, where you kind of like see the world through like your own experience and to the culture that you were raised in. Like you're looking, like you're up and you're

looking down. Yeah, essentially. Yeah. And it's just kind of helped me break down further my, any walls that I built up against the outside. Because like I said, I don't want to throw anybody in my family under the bus, but my family will go travel somewhere and go in a very touristy type of way and then be like, wow, there's so much trash on the side of the road here. They should clean that up. Not realizing there's a lot of socioeconomic and political history leading to these causes and stuff like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so just kind of like starting to unpack things and look for explanations a little bit deeper is something I got out of anthropology, but also just being a student in general.

Because I do that a certain amount on my own, but there's something different when you have like a mentor there in the form of a professor kind of like helping guide you and answer questions for you. It sounds nerdy maybe, but no, it's something I really enjoy. So with that, with that knowledge, why do you think Americans are so ignorant?

I think we're ignorant because we don't have a good education system. Like I was telling you briefly, like I grew up in this place they call the corridor of shame along 95, where it's like all the public schools in South Carolina and that part of like some of the worst in the country. And you know I I heard your your um your cast with uh with Mike Taylor from uh his my biggest fan and y'all were talking about that kind of stuff a little bit I don't know a ton about it you know like but I I think we're just not we're all we're like a rich country so everybody's pretty lazy in general, like,

because we can be. Yeah. Um, but also we've taken that laziness into education and we just like, we put more focus on success financially than we do in like making yourself, uh, a good citizen. Um,

and that, that's just an opinion though. I'm not saying that's a fact. That's just, I feel like that. I feel like. I agree. We're just like,

we're not all on the same page because like we haven't agreed that this is the page we need to read you know like yeah i think so too i think you know like i look at cultures like like uh the dutch or like have the or even the germans who had to deal with some bullshit yeah they had to face some shit yeah and now they're a great community yeah Yeah. And like, just like, yeah, they learn from their mistakes. I don't think we learn from our mistakes. We have a problem with that because we have this like, this American exceptionalism and like this whole like back-to-back World War II champs mentality that's like, it's like, okay, well, what about all, well, first of all, that's a whole thing.

Like we were not just cut and clear, like the right side in World War're to. There's a lot of people that were fascist in America, too. But then it's also what about our history before and after all that? It's like we don't want to we the current bad things and the ways we can change. But there is like half the culture or half the country wants to talk about that and half doesn't. And so I don't know, I don't know what the answer is. That's a song or how do you write that? I don't know, man. Sometimes I got this new one that I'm working on and it's, I just found it the other day and we've been working on the studio cause I recorded it, but I must've written it like a year or so ago when I was, because right now I'm at a point where I really want to just promote conversations and unity. But at the time, the song is just like, be gone from me, all you problems of the world, all you people on the other side, just like being fed up with the other side. And I think- What's the other side to you?

people who don't believe in climate change people who don't believe in historical uh systemic racism and people who don't believe science yeah yeah you know and i but i don't hate those people because a lot of those people are the people i grew up around and with and i i get that i've like they they probably look at me as like oh okay well you went and moved to charleston and then you know travel with your band and now you're just like a bleeding heart liberal it's like bro like i still like love to ride four-wheelers as much as the next person like i'm a gun owner i'm not like i'm not like i do consider myself a progressive person but not politically like dug in i'm like an independent you know if somebody has good messaging and as good uh and also, I just look for leadership qualities and people who really seem to care about the community

and about people as a whole. And I'm not here for this divisiveness and this armed and militia group stuff and all that. I'm way the fuck against it. So why then the idea of honesty, like you said in your first record, 2014, where you had that relief. Why don't we put that same philosophy in 2020?

I am, I am. But it's like my truth is maybe, well, first of all, that record was the only, well, that record and our second record were both written pre, I'll just say it, Trump era. And I'm not going to point anybody out for being a Trump fan or whatever. Maybe I should.

But I was seeing the world through a different fan or whatever I, you know, maybe I should, but, um, but, uh, you know, I was seeing the world through a different lens. Now I'm older. I'm almost, I'm almost 10 years older than I, well, I'm like seven or eight years older than I was when I wrote that record. I'm a dad. Like I've also actually been out and seen a little bit more of the world. That record was very much about my struggles that I was going through and about being honest about who I was. And so I'm a little bit more hesitant to be like straight up honest about how I feel. Cause I also recognize that my feelings may not be correct and they might be informed by bias or just not seeing the whole picture. And so like, I'm, that's why, like I said, I'm more likely and more leaning into like promoting themes

of unity than I am of like saying like, this is fucking wrong. And this is why, because things are just in generally more nuanced. There are things that aren't, there are things that are straight up wrong. Do you think optimism will save the world? I fucking hope so, dude. Cause I, at the core, I'm an optimist. I've been like on this whole thing recently telling everybody, I was like, oh man, capitalism is going to save the planet

because all these capitalists are going to realize that their bottom line is better when they go to green energy. And that may or may not be right, but it's like, I'm an optimist. So I want to believe it. Like, I want to believe that like, like all the, like people from the right wing who have been, um, not the extreme right wing, but from like the center you know, center right and middle right that have been like called to arms to go be poll workers are going to actually go see that the people voting aren't trying to cheat. They're just like trying to vote. And like,

I think I'm hopeful that this whole election, I mean that this will probably air after that or whatever, but I'm just hopeful that this time will be unifying, but I'm also realize that it might not. And it, it likely won't, but I don't know. I just, I'm an optimist in the fact that I think we can do better and there are people actually trying to do better and those people are powerful and they're, and they're really smart. But you know, it's, even if, even if things don't work out, I'm still just thankful to have been able to be alive. And I just really hope that my daughter doesn't end up in some dystopian

world when she's like 50 that like, she can't navigate and I'm long gone. I mean, she can handle herself by then I'm sure. But like, I just, is there pressure on you to like not make that happen for her? I feel,

I feel compelled to. Yeah. I don't know if it's maybe self-pressure or maybe just the world putting pressure, but I definitely think I feel that more as a parent than I did. I mean, I was still concerned for humanity before I became a parent. I wanted to do what I could

to help make the world a better place because I'm inspired by people like Bob Marley and these folks who just have big messages of peace and love and unity, you know. And but now I think I'm even more concerned about the planet and coming together to fight that fight. But I also might just be an alarmist. I don't know. I don't think I am. But I'm definitely consuming a lot of material

as I'm a student that's kind of in that realm that just makes me... How do you think we could come together? I think music is actually a really good way to do it, and I think, honestly, a lot of artists actually do a pretty good job of being mediators uh to their like not choosing a side or choosing a side when it matters but like also not like shunning people from the other side because you got to talk to people like i if it wasn't for

people talking to me yeah i would still be a product of where i'm from and i might you know who knows man who knows what i would be like if I wasn't people talking to me helping me expand my mind expand my worldview but you also got to be open to it you know like I was open to those things and um I don't know I think conversations and compromise are the best tools we have right now like being willing to compromise you know what about with that same philosophy towards the music industry? You mean the current situation with... Well, when I think compromise right now, I think about how I was trying to find compromise ways to play music in general because on one hand,

there's laws restricting it and there's also scientific data saying that concerts can be these events where things are spread, but at the same time, it's also a time when we need those sorts of feelings of unity more than ever. And also as artists, we have to make a living as well. Um, I think, I think just like, I don't think it's wrong to like take a stance politically. Like I've done that before and I will continue to

do that. Um, but I think it, it, it gets bad whenever you just get into the keyboard warrior lifestyle where like when somebody does a great- Keyboard warrior? Yeah. I fucking love that. I never heard that. I stole that from my buddy. I love it.

But whenever, I don't know, because I don't want to like belittle the work that people do online, defending the right things and stuff like that because I think a lot of it's important, but it's just hard to talk online. Those platforms like Facebook and stuff were not created for us to have these important conversations.

And I think just kind of trying to stay away from negativity when you can is the best way. But it's also, I understand that life isn't like that. You can't always do that. So I don't have any answers. I feel like I'm talking in circles. No, no. I'm hearing you. Yeah. So it's basically, I agree with you in the social media. It's the echo chamber. Yeah. Because I have you watched social dilemma. I did. Yeah. And that made me fucking scared to my life that I'm just preaching to the choir,

totally not hearing out the other opinion. Cause I'm just fl just flooded with information that I want. I have an interesting story about that movie. My mom and I see things almost completely opposite as far as worldview. She's a Trump supporter and she's a Christian.

I think a lot of people are in that position. My dad passed earlier this year. My mom, my, my dad passed earlier this year. And so my mom has become, and she was like 10 years younger than him. So she's like, you know, becoming kind of like in the world for the first time as like her own lady without him there to like talk to her bounce ideas off of. Um, and so we've been talking a lot more cause I'm her oldest kid. And, uh, but then we started hitting walls when we get to politics cause she's dug in. And then like, I see her on Facebook posting stuff then we started hitting walls when we get to politics because she's dug in.

And then I see her on Facebook posting stuff, and we're like, oh, my God. She's also posting pictures of our daughter. And so we're like, we don't want a picture of our daughter right above this crazy fake news posted thing. And we didn't know how to talk to her about that. And when we did, it kind of did not go well. And we just didn't talk for a couple weeks and then my wife

and i watched social dilemma and we're like oh wow this is like it made us think about our own social media escape that we've created um and then also we thought heavily about my mom because she's like i don't think she has any fan friends on facebook that aren't besides us that don't feel the same way she does yeah and so we're like man i hope she sees this and then the next day she texted me she's like saw this awesome movie last night she watched it the same night as us social without any prompting the social dilemma i it really was eye-opening i hope you'll you'll watch it and we're i was like wow we actually watched it last night and she was saying it to me probably thinking that i need to break my echo chamber and i was saying it to her yeah yeah and so it's like but at least maybe the

movie has made us realize that and because since then she actually came to visit last week and we had like a really we just avoided it we talked and she talked about how she's gonna be a poll worker and stuff and i was like okay that's good i think you know honestly i think like i mentioned before i think that'll be good for her to see just real people coming in that aren't demons. Like a lot of times. Each side thinks they're demons. Right. And it's just not healthy. And so I'm thankful for that movie.

I think it's going to hopefully at least let people understand what's going on. But I don't think it's really going to change people's minds. But it's definitely a step in the right direction, I think. I think the revolution will not be tweeted. Yeah. You know? In a sense where once we turn off all these machines, that's when we start becoming

free again. Because I don't think we're free right now. Do you ever feel tied to it as an artist? Every day, dude. I feel like that's my lifeline to my career. I know, totally. I think, okay, I'm going to get off all these social media apps this week and they're like, oh wait, I got this show to announce or I got this okay, I'm going to get off all these social media apps this week.

And they're like, oh, wait, I got this show to announce. Or I got this song coming out. I got to have to do that. And I'm just like, fuck. But my wife doesn't have any of that stuff. She has accounts, but she just doesn't keep it on her phone. She doesn't need it. She's like a mom and a teacher and a friend and a wife.

And she's all those things first. And me, I get sucked into, even though I know what's happening, I get sucked into the Instagram scroll like multiple times a day and waste time. And I'm just like, man. Why do you think we have to do that to ourselves? I don't know. I really wish.

I think it's addiction. I think part of it's just addiction. Well, addicted to what, though? The connection? I think maybe it it's just addiction. Addicted to what, though? Connection? I think maybe it started as the connection, and maybe the connection feeds the addiction or the perceived connection, but I think it's just the dopamine we get from seeing a little bubble come up. Saying, someone likes me.

Yeah, because honestly, as long as I'll go through the pictures, that's entertaining too, but I could be much more entertained by going out in my yard and trying to like plant a garden or, you know, identify mushrooms in my yard or something like that. You know, like, yeah,

I want to do more of that in my life, but I'm definitely feel like it's got its claws in me. I haven't figured out how to get it out yet. Especially as a musician, right? Because we have, we rely so much on this to keep the train going totally like i wish i wish we were musicians in the 80s or 90s where we needed a map quest for

for fucking road trips and like i remember i mean when we were first diy touring we would print out all the map quest directions to go you know and it was like it was it was did you feel more free then? I don't know. I can't remember. It's such an incredible tool having Google Maps at your thumb tips. There's just so much that goes along with it. I wish we had the tools without all the social media. Because the social media, in my opinion, has just not been worth the squeeze. I think, you know, we always have, like, also, it's belittled the impact of entities like music magazines and stuff like that. You know, press outlets.

And I would rather, like, my fans, well, I don't know. I guess, like, it's hard to even tell if I'd even be able to have any fans if it wasn't for social media. well, I don't know. I guess like, it's hard to even tell if I'd even be able to have any fans if it wasn't for social media, but like, it'd be great to be on a level where like you didn't have to post anything.

People would just read about it and spin or pitchfork fork or something like that. You know, like, yeah, it's crazy. It is. It's crazy time to be a musician.

I mean, it's like, there's too many, it's the ADD culture. So like, no one remembers what you did in 2000, fucking 14, 2015 anymore anymore like that and like it's sad yeah it is that we have such short attention spans now that what are you giving me

right now fuck i got this photo of me with uh a beard all right let me i got a beard now i'm posting a photo with me with a beard you know like it's like that's new it's like fuck i feel like it's just it's like a rat you know like a's like, fuck, I feel like it's just, it's like a rat, you know, like a rabbit. You're chasing the rabbit's tail and that's why I got out of LA. I used to work pop punk record labels.

I used to work for Drive Thru Records. You worked for Drive Thru? Yeah. Dude, I sent so many demos to Drive Thru in the early 2000s. They were bad.

That's why I fucking liked your music. Honestly, at first, I'm like, damn, this sounds familiar. This feels like what I grew up, what I thought songwriting was. Listening to Ace Ambers and listening to fucking.

Yeah, totally. Man, that was definitely what I was into. Hardcore. I mean, I watched all the drive-thru DVDs and stuff. Yeah. Who are your guys? My first concert was Newfound Glory. Yeah, same here.

With Something Corporate and Finch. He's the reason why I play piano. Really? Andrew McMahon. Yeah, dude, same actually. Same. In my old band, I was like, okay, I got to get a keyboard. And I tried to do something kind of like that song Hurricane. And it was definitely a ripoff. But it's okay. Because I saw them and I was like, wow, this is powerful. I mean, it was like, I guess it was my first

concert. It was sold out, House of Blues, Myrtle Beach, Stacked Bill, all my favorite drive-thru bands. Finch was dope. Yeah, and it was a nice mix too because Finch had this kind of screaming and Something Corporate had the piano rock vibe and then Newfound Glory just had this fun pop punk. Yeah. And it was awesome. When did you work for them?

I worked for them in 06. I worked for them in high school from ninth grade. I'm the same age as you. I'm 32. Okay. So I graduated high school 06. 02 to 05. Damn, dude. And I did the rains yeah i was uh i was yeah man that's crazy did you ever get richard to listen to your tracks no but man none of this stuff we were doing it would have been

worth it i mean my my my band that i had after high school that i kind of started my senior year the one that i said had like success, that might have been appealing. But at the same time, we were assigned to Atlantic for a little while. Really? But it was like a development deal. It was called Sequoia Prep School. It was a development deal. We never put out a record.

But they flew us to LA. It was the first time we ever went to LA. They flew us to New York, put us up in this hotel in Times Square, gave us free weed and stuff. We were like hell yeah the dream yeah the dream

totally and then we were supposed to play so we went out to LA the thing was none of us could really play so it was like and I couldn't even barely sing at the time

we were just like was it like an energy band you guys had a lot of energy like running around I think it was just like we had a certain amount of MySpace following this is back before

Facebook really and like one of their lower level A&R guys just like we had a certain amount of myspace following this is back before facebook really and like uh one of their lower level a and r guys just like found us on myspace heard a song he liked got us some funding and we went to la made um some songs this guy mike green he did like some paramore albums yeah and then immediately went home and then immediately went up to new york from there to play and then like we went to play a show at the bitter end you ever been the bitter end and grand trying to sign you to fuel by ramen or yeah they were trying to like to do like a sub deal but then at the thing like it was the first time it ever happened but i just completely lost my voice at the showcase were you nervous i had just been traveling so much like we had been recording

for a week in la then we, and we immediately got in the car and drove up to New York, and I just, I wasn't really nervous. I just lost my voice. You were hanging. Yeah, and it was,

I was young. I was like 21, maybe. So they didn't give you the deal? Well, we stayed in the development. They were just like, oh, we're going to keep going, see what happens, and then-

How much money did they give you? Not a lot. A couple grand? 10 grand? 10 grand, 15, oh, we're going to keep going, see what happens. And then, uh, not a lot. I mean, 10 grand, 15, something like that. Enough to cover the flights and the recording.

And then like, uh, eventually our A&R guy got, got the acts and like, I think, yeah,

the whole department actually did. And then, so we, it just fell through and then that was kind of part of the disillusionment that eventually led to me

just kind of quitting the band. Because I was like, this music industry is brutal. Like, I'm not going to make it. Especially that scene where, like, they fill, there's five bands on a fucking show. Everyone plays 20 fucking minutes. Yeah, totally. Like, I used to book Rx Bandits.

Dude, I fucking love Rx Bandits. They're the best. That guy, I feel bad that band didn't get as big as I thought they did. Dude, they were so good. They had kind of a different vibe than a lot of the bands on Drive Thru, too. I don't know how to pinpoint it, but it was like, it was also like their messaging was, like I said,

it had this kind of bigger messages that were kind of like about hunger and the world and things like, I don't know. Maybe that's why no one gives a shit about that. Going back to your fucking point of being ignorant. I don't know. When you start talking about that stuff to kids who just want to talk about heartbreak and uh you know yeah like that song all rwanda's glory like that was like at the time when i heard that i didn't know about the genocide in rwanda you know and that was like i learned about it through an rx

bandit song yeah and that's powerful do you think that's hard as a songwriter to do that yeah i think you can come across as like, I mean, it sounds even pedantic to use the word pedantic, but you can come across as like a know-it-all or whatever. Because people really also need music for more core things, just to feel loved and to feel relaxed and stuff. But work for Rage Against the Machine. I'm a huge Rage Against the Machine fan. Okay, so let's talk about that.

So why did it work for Rage Against the Machine and not for R-Expanded? I don't know. I couldn't tell you. Maybe because Rage Against the Machine had already happened. I mean, I think there's also like, people don't want to make a ton of room for political music. They did in the 70s and the 60s.

Yeah, they did. They did. Maybe they were just tired of it. I don't know. So maybe we're just tired of it now political music. Yeah. They did in the 70s and the 60s. Yeah, they did. They did. Maybe they were just tired of it. I don't know, but. So maybe we're just tired of it now. We're fine. I don't know. I mean, I think it's still coming up.

I mean, you have people like on the, in the, like the alt countryside, you have some people kind of addressing it. You have like your Sturgill Simpsons of the world. But, you know, but even country music doesn't, even a lot of Sturgill's fans don't even want to hear what he's got to say about it

really they just like him because he sounds like Waylon Jennings yeah because like I see that he gets him and Childers

get fucking shitted on from their fans just because they're smart dudes that are like telling and they don't they also

they're really good especially Sturgill about like not getting too political about stuff and trying to but he's also just like not gonna entertain stupidity you know your new record's got this like jam thing

going on too like yeah did you or did you ever listen like grateful dead or any of that stuff oh yeah yeah yeah me and my drummer are both uh and my guitar player we're we're both we're all three big dead fans i'm not like but you know i'm kind of a weird dead fan because like i'll i'll sell people asking you like the dead like oh yeah i love the dead and they'll start like naming like uh uh like trying to test yeah like oh like 73 like you know this like cornell or something i'm like because i'm really i'm an album fan i really love grateful dead what do you love about albums in general well in general i love albums because I love that size, a body of work. It's like a way that I, because I've been making albums,

it's like a way I like to digest art, especially music, in a full album. I also love just songs too, but I like the idea of trying to make a collection coherent. But the reason I specifically like the Grateful Dead is because I could really hone in on the lyrics and the lyrics have all these weird, mystical, like mythical type imagery. And I love that. Like, and just the groove is awesome too, you know? Like-

Man, it's so funny. Like a lot of people will listen just to the live track. See, that's, you like the albums. I know, I'm so weird. Another thing too is that The Grateful Dead is another thing I got into at military school. So it was weird. I had this weird military school experience where I like...

You'd never think that would... You'd think it'd be this strict, stern, this is what we're doing, this is what you're listening to. Well, it was in a lot of ways. But I think because it was like that in so many ways when it came to my free time, I was going the opposite direction. And so maybe that was, maybe I wouldn't have even gotten into it if it wasn't for that, you know? Shout out to that LSD in the fucking military school.

Let's go, big guy. Let's go, let's go. Wow, Justin, this is great, man. I know you got to go. It's almost that time. But I'm proud. You're not feeling like you're going to quit no no no definitely not

I think first of all thank you for having me this has been awesome to chat with you I knew we were going to be fucking I know I'm glad too we should we definitely should I would love to we'll post off this stuff that's another thing that I'm

that kind of segues back to what you just asked me I am obsessed with writing songs I'm, you know, like I, that kind of segues back to what you just asked me. I am obsessed with writing songs. Like I'm never going to quit because I'm obsessed with writing songs and making albums and listening to other people's music and communicating with people through music. Because it's not something that I just have had forever. It's something I've, in the same way that I've honed in and I've developed over the years.

And I would never throw something like that away, especially something that's so intertwined with my life. But I have kind of had enough of the 250-day-a-year lifestyle. I am kind of looking more locally, and also I'm looking at the impact of being, you know, this is something people don't ever want to talk about, but when you're in a, when you're traveling over 500 miles a week in a, in a van or even a tour bus, it's a pretty big fucking carbon footprint, you know? And I, I'm not pointing fingers anywhere, but at myself because I've, it just made me think about it.

Think about like, what can I do in small ways to be better? And, you know, I think thinking local when it comes to not only performing, but also just like being an integral part of your artistic community where you live. Not to say I'm never going to play in LA again or in Europe, but it's just not going to be, I'm not going to go into Europe three times a year, you know, like,

and I just, I want to find, I'm, I'm. Are you big in Europe? We're not big anywhere. You want to find what? I just want to find balance. I've had balance before whenever my wife and I, like I mentioned, had this balance of off the road, on the road. But now as a dad, it's time to recalibrate. And the 2020 pandemic has been helpful in me kind of doing that.

So I'm definitely not quitting. I'm always going to put out music, and it's always going to be the biggest focal point in my life. As far as career wise goes that word career, but, but yeah, just rethinking how is, is what I'm currently in the process of doing. Wow. Look at you. What a life. Fucking look at you. What a life too, man.

From guns, from gun down, shakedowns to LSD in military school, to being fucking pop punk fan, to- Drive through, man. To writing great songs and being honest with yourself. I think you've really, I mean, you're only 33 and you've already found so much in yourself

and can't wait to see what the next 70 years are like for you, buddy. Well, Andy, that's likewise, dude. I appreciate you taking an interest in my story and letting me talk to you about it. It's awesome, dude. I'm a fan. I've been talking about you.

It's so funny. Your name has popped up five times on this tour. That's awesome. I'm glad people are talking right now. By just people. Just like Nashville. Like, do you know this guy? I'm like, fuck yeah.

Then all of a sudden, the last thing that it was just serendipitous was, I didn't know Paige booked you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that whole Paradigm team has been so good to me. Especially through the firing, all the firings and shit. I know. I'm glad that some of those great people on our team

have been able to stick around because the booking agents have obviously had a hard time with all this because everything just went away. They don't know any fucking money. Yeah. Are they forcing you to do live stream? Are they trying to take that up? They've been really good to me.

They're not doing anything. They're letting me fend for myself a little bit, and whenever opportunities come that make sense, we're working it out and doing it, but they're like family. Yeah, each agency has a philosophy of how they're going to take care of their bands. Because I get, probably what I'm assuming is

all your shows from 2020 are just 2021, right? Yeah, and the thing thing is we were kind of already at the end of album cycles we only had a certain amount you know so it was like it wasn't like we had a big album tour that was about to start in june or something you know we're we're we were a little bit fortunate with the timing but it's you know it's still not a a great place for anybody being we all want to be playing shows but we'll figure it out how to get back out there yeah totally i can't wait to hear the new record yo send, send it to me. I will. I swear to God. I got a SoundCloud link. I'll shoot it your way.

That's what I'm talking about, my guy. One last question. What do you want to be remembered by? I just want to be remembered as being a positive impact in whatever way I could be. Maybe not a huge one, but just like I just don't want to be remembered for

doing fucked up shit. Hopefully I haven't done much a huge one, but just like, I just don't want to be remembered for doing fucked up shit. Like, I just, hopefully I haven't done much fucked up shit, but I don't know. I don't want to, I don't need to have some big memory. I just want the music to kind of be appreciated, and I like, just want a legacy of just being a good friend, and a good dad, and a good husband,

and, you know, a good human as best I can be. Well, you're on your fucking way, my guy. Well, right're on your fucking way, my guy. Well, right back at you. Right back at you. Thanks, Justin, for being on the show. You're the man. Thank you for having me. I'm going to be ruining you on, buddy.

I appreciate it. Cheers. And now, a message from Caleb Hawley. Tell me what it's like to have a dream come true If I never know I can live through you You'll get the blessings I can't break through So tell me what it's like to have a dream come true Is it everything you ever wished

for Do you level up and yearn for more Does fortune come knocking on your door each night Does having it easy make you lose

your fight Tell me what it's like to have a dream come true if i never know i can live through you you get the blessings i can't break through so tell me what it's like to have a dream come true Watching you flourish is a beautiful thing But I get a bit sad just thinking of me When I look at this picture from 2003 I remember who I thought I'd be Tell me what it's like to have a dream come true I remember who I thought I'd be. Tell me what it's like to have a dream come true.

If I never know, I could live through you. You get the blessings, I can't break through. So tell me what it's like to have a dream come true You give the blessings I can't break through So tell me what it's like to have a dream come true All right, and there we have it. Wasn't that a great interview? I love getting to know my favorite musicians and understanding

who they are and who they want to be as life grows on and who they were and it was a fascinating interview thank you Justin, thank you buddy let's go big pimping, spinning G's over here got a kid, got a wife

good for you bro, Go get that life. Go enjoy that life. But that's it, guys. I hope you had a great one. I'm working. So if you want, holler at me. If you got any ideas, we got two more episodes left until the season. I can't believe we finished three seasons of the fucking shit or not the shit show of the podcast. Wow. Three seasons. we're at 100 plus episodes, let's go, thank you so much for supporting me, shout out to Fourteener for supporting the podcast, let's go, thanks Evan, I know he's dealing with some shit, it's crazy, Ma and Pa, Ma and Pa places are, Ma and Pa weed stores, you know, they're probably

feeling it now, because everything's getting legalized, and now all are Ma and Pa weed stores. You know, they're probably feeling it now because everything's getting legalized and now all the sharks and the suits are trying to take their jobs. But go support that local Ma and Pa stores. 14 are the best. I think it's the best weed in the country. Non-psychoactive to me.

Maybe it won't be to you, but I love it. It's clean. Doesn't make my head all crazy. Doesn't make me think dark shit. Sometimes weed does that when I'm not all fucked up or blacked out. If I just smoke weed during the day without drinking, sometimes I overthink life. But they don't do that. So go out there. If you're in the Denver, Boulder area, go check out 14er. They're great. They do this like delivery service, not delivery, but, um, contactless pickup if you holler at them. So, um, go grab some, but, um, I'll leave you with this guys. Uh, be safe out there.

COVID still running rampant, like a, like herpes on a humid day. So be safe. You know, don't get caught up. Don't be spreading shit. If you feel sick, stay home. Stay home if you're sick. Come through if you're thick. But if you're thick and sick, stay home because we got to keep, we got to get out of this. You know, musicians are struggling right now. We need to get them back on the road we need music in our lives you know this is this is a podcast for music fans and art fans so don't forget to um keep it safe so we get all by april hopefully you know at least get some pod shows and some drive-in shows because it's gonna be the dark winter for the musicians so if um this is if you want to support go go every all these bands are fucking doing black friday sales even me we're all selling merch go buy some merch for holidays

get some band merch you know you could buy from best buy but buy from us buy from all the bands just trying to figure out how to keep a band alive because i I have a feeling a lot of bands are not going to make it through this shit. And it's sad to think about. So stay and support your favorite bands. Go grab a fucking pin or go grab some merch and we'll get it from there. All right, I love you. Be safe.

Stay wild. Stay free. Stay optimistic. We're going to make it through this and survive in advance. Take care of the old people. Take care of the people with low immunities. And we're all going to get out of this together. All right. I love you. Be safe. And I will catch you next week. I won't tell you the guest, but it's fucking fire. Fucking fire. You tuned in to the third season of Blissful Blah at Andy Fresco's World Saving Podcast, produced by Andy Fresco, Joe Angel, I'm Chris Lawrence. Please subscribe, rate the show on iTunes and Spotify

so we can make this a worldwide phenomenon. For info on the show, please head to Instagram at worldsavingpodcast. For more info on blog or tour dates, head to andyfresco.com. Check out the new album, Keep On Keepin' On. Or let Andy entertain you at a Thursday night online shitshow. Or at this crazy Saturday night

wanna-dance-with-somebody dance party. Oh, right. Summer season is here. No festivals, no music. So instead of trying to keep the lip going and hoping to find some shitty paid trombone and tuba gigs this summer, I decided to re-route. Building closets and wardrobes, build a tiny summer house and do some painting.

It will be October in no time. And yes, I sort of hate it compared to the wonderful life I live, but I'm also thankful that people trust my skills or my good looks or whatever. They have my back and I managed to make some money. The big danger in this line of work actually it pays a lot better than being a musician. All right how are you doing? Making ends meet? Worried? No work? Putting on a virtual dance party every week? Let's make sure to carry each other, get one another's backs, keep each other safe, keep each other sane, keep each other safe keep each other sane keep each other healthy

let's unite for it will be a long road ahead see you next week