Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 123: Jackie Greene

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

Andy and Chad survived their Folly Beach vacation... but at what cost? We hear a little bit about some upcoming shows that are *surprisesurprise* live and in-person?! And on the Interview Hour we welcome immaculate voiced, singer-songwriter and former Black Crowes member: Jackie Greene! He imparts some sage wisdom to Andy about being grounded. Will Andy ever plant his own roots? Only time will tell. Chad Coccuza joins us to close out this week. This is EP 123. Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For more information on Andy Frasco, the band and/or the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com Check out Andy's new album, "Keep On Keepin' On" on iTunes Spotify  Everybody needs a little Greene in their life: jackiegreene.com Produced by Andy Frasco Joe Angelhow Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: Chad Cocuzza Ahri Findling Arno Bakker

Hey yo Frasco, holy shit dude what a great time out in Charleston man. Wow dude that was we killed it out there. Whoa dude what the fuck dude. Yeah these messages for Mr. Frasco, this is Steve Alfredson down at Folly Beach Golf Cart Reynolds in Charleston. I just wanted to tell you, we will be keeping your security deposit because I'm not sure what the fuck happened to our golf cart, but you destroyed the goddamn thing, okay? In my 35 years running this business, I've never seen somebody treat a goddamn piece of equipment like you guys did this weekend.

I mean, the thing's missing a tire. The fucking roof's been ripped off. Somebody wrote long live Brasco's wiener on the interior in some sort of permanent marker. That shit's not coming off, and I'm not giving you your goddamn money back. So we will be keeping your security deposit, and I am informing you that you and any of your dumbass friends

will no longer be welcomed at my establishment. So have a good day and go fuck yourself. And we're back. Andy Frasco's World's Saved Podcast. I'm Andy Frasco. How's everyone doing? How's our heads today? How's our heads this week?

Summer's just around the fucking corner, guys. Do I have to play the goddamn music? It's time. Summer's here, y'all. Time to get laid again. It's time to get outside of your house and get a fucking tan. Let's fucking go. All right. What's up? Oh, man, I just got back from Denver, like literally last night at 1am. Charleston was a blast. Just fucking drank my ass off. I was on the flight just like, oh, I need to take a chill break. And then one of my close friends, Matt, picked me up from the airport and went straight to the bar and we got fucked up. But tomorrow's a new day, y'all. Tomorrow is a new fucking day. That's why I keep telling myself,

every time I fuck up, I'm going to be like, tomorrow's a new day. I'm going to wake up and do this. Because, you know, I don't know. It's not that I feel guilty for drinking. I mean, this is what I do. But we could always start again tomorrow. So, um, if you fuck up or you feel like you're becoming a shitty person or whatever, um,

and you really want to change, let's change. Because if we have the philosophy that tomorrow brings a cleanse and a new way to be, if we're trying to be present, if that's what this whole present idea is, then we have a chance to not fuck up tomorrow. So today I did it. I woke up, took a shower, drank some coffee, cleaned the house a little bit. Now I am ready to fucking rock. So let's do it. We got Jackie Green on the show, which I'm very pumped up about. I always loved Jackie. We opened for Jackie when I was like 20 or 21 and we never really had a conversation. I think he was just overworked and kind of, you know, burning out. And, um, I caught him on the, on the tail end of that from a tour or whatever. So we didn't, I thought I was like, damn, this guy,

this guy's tired. I didn't know what being burnt out was yet because I was,, damn, this guy, this guy's tired. I didn't know what being burnt out was yet because I was, you know, freshly off of, you know, freshly into touring. And I loved every second of the not sleeping and the fucking shitty gas station food. I still like going to gas stations and people watching. That's like one of my favorite things at touring is getting out of the gas station

and talking to all the truckers and shit. Howdy, cowboy. And they're like, who the fuck are these hippies? Big old Afros, you know, wearing our fucking tie-dyes and shit because it's, you know, day shows. I don't know. Just whatever's laying in the van, I'll put on. And it's just fun to have just kind of like a, you know, tip your hat to the people who are traveling. So shout out to everyone who travels on a daily basis.

All you truckers out there, all you bands living the dream. Fuck yeah, keep living the dream. Speaking of living the dream, we have Red Rocks, May 27th. We're pretty, tickets sound pretty good. But, you know, I'm, you know, my, I don't, not my reputation's on the line, but, um, you know, I want to sell that bitch out. You know, I think we need, you know, a couple hundred more tickets and we'll be, uh, pretty damn close. So, um, if you're debating it, um, I've been watching the, the pictures and the videos of how they've been doing the

Red Rock shows. Um, cause that's a lot of people. I get it. If you're scared of the stuff, I get it. But they're really spreading everyone out through the whole amphitheater, and it feels safe, and it feels fun as fuck. I can't wait to do it. So if you haven't bought your tickets or are debating, we are opening a new chapter in our life, and we will be playing with, um, Keller Williams and John

Craigie and Kyle layers. Um, it's going to be fun. So go grab your tickets at axs.com. May 8th, we have our one year anniversary of the fucking dance party. It's been a fucking year. Holy shit. Can't believe it. I've been working with relics on this dance party for a year. We've done 32 episodes. Shout out to everyone who's been listening to that. Let's go. My people, my fraskettes, just dancing their ass off in their living rooms for me and for you.

And thank you so much. Shout out to DJ Sleepy for always bringing in the hot playlists. And shout out to my legs. I'm impressed with my legs. Three hours of dancing every day. Let's go, legs. That's what I'm talking about. So'm impressed with my legs. Three hours of dancing every day. Let's go legs. That's what I'm talking about. So, um, come celebrate with us and it's mother's day. So bring your moms on the streams. And this is crazy how many people are watching this last week. We had 400,000

the week before we had 600,000. The kids are liking it and I am enjoying doing it on an, on a sad note, the shit show's over. Damn. That was a monumental, that was a lot of work. And it was worth it. I was watching the season finale of it. And I was like kind of crying because like, God, we worked so hard on this thing. And to see things end, you know, I'm not good with endings.

You know, I don't like, this is why I don't start things. This is why I don't start relationships because I don't like endings. And even with death, I've always been afraid of death and ending. And, you know, I've been kind of getting out of that philosophy because, you know, it's inevitable. We all have to go one of these days. And, um, so with those new ideas and changing my mind into thinking that death is bad, Um, when it's not, it's just part of it, part of the whole experience. It took my, uh, anxiety level of things ending. Like I'd always have like depression after a tour ended or if I had a project. So I've been working on how to fix that. So right when the shit show ended, I just started making my new record.

I just like literally the next day I got in the studio. I, we, uh, I'm like, I'm my whole philosophy on this new record guys is, um, I'm going to test myself. I am going into these towns. I'm going to Nashville for 10 days, um, riding with like 10 guys. And then I'm going to Denver for a week, writing with some cats out here. And then I'm in LA writing with some cats out there. And I'm trying to write and record two songs a week. If they're good or not, I'm going to test myself because what this shit show taught me was when we stop overthinking things and we just actually just do the work and do things that we think are enjoyable and we think are nice and what we think art is,

and we stop thinking about what other people are going to think about it, that's when you get the best results. Like even if people don't like it, fuck it, you like it. So make art that you like. And I'm pumped up. I wrote this killer song with Justin from Susto and Ryan Stasek and Ross Bogan and Kanika Moore from Doom Flamingo. It was like a fucking Charleston affair. And we wrote a song. And then the next day we rented some studio time and we finished the song and it's fucking good And I'm not trying to blow my own horn here

Or maybe it sounds like I am But I'm really proud of this song And I really am channeling something And the vessel is open And I'm ready to fuck So, you know, fuck up songs And I'm ready to make love too It's been a minute

So I gotta figure out what's going on in my head It's weird because I don't want to have sex minute. Um, so I got to figure out what's going on with my head. It's weird. Cause I don't want to have sex with people like, uh, that I like, this is really, this is a really fucked up thing. I'm now I'm going through. Um, I'm not trying to be intimate with people I like, cause I don't want to end, you know, I don't want it to end. Cause I know if I, um, you know, we make love, it's, it all disappears. So, um, I tried that out. I had a girl come in to Charleston for a couple of days and we just hung out. It was awesome. Stayed for a couple of days, no lovemaking. Um, and, uh, I got to know

her and it was awesome. So I wasn't thinking about my dick. Shout out to that. I'm fucking maturing out here. Let's go. Your boy Frasco's maturing in these streets. And yeah, it was fun, but your boy is getting thirsty. So I got to figure out how to do that because I got to stop watching porn. This is out of hand. I mean, I don't watch it like all day, but you know, a couple minutes a day. It's like watching the same shit. So might need to go back to therapy and talk to a doc, not doctor, but talk to someone about that. Um, other than that, we got June dates. Uh, we got June dates too. Those are pretty much sold out. Um, they just announced a couple of new festivals in August. Um, we're playing in new Orleans, uh, June 5th for Hogs for the Cause. Then June 15th,

we head out to Wichita Falls. June 16th, we head out to Oklahoma City. 17th, Kansas City. 18th, Cedar Rapids. 20th, Omaha. Still not that good. Come on, Omaha. Everything else is pretty much sold out besides Omaha. What the fuck, Omaha? Let's go. Come on, Omaha. Everything else is pretty much sold out besides Omaha. What the fuck, Omaha? Let's go. Come on, Omaha. Get it together. No, I don't know. It's so hit or miss with Omaha. Sometimes we'll pack that bitch out. Sometimes there's fucking 10 people, but that is touring. 22, Aurora, Illinois, 23, St. Louis, 24, Indianapolis. 25, 26, Columbus. Those sold out immediately. Kansas City's pretty much sold out.

Indianapolis, bigger venue, so I have more room to sell. And then announcement. I don't think they announced that one yet, so I won't say that. We got Floyd Fest, and then we're doing a run in the Northwest. I know my Northwest people have been wanting me to play out there. We have something confirmed. We're not telling you yet, but maybe next week. And then we got this fucking huge tour. We're about to announce like real fucking big. And I can't tell you yet, but you know, that's it. But speaking of music and bands and stuff, Repsy. Repsy, our guys.

Shout out to Repsy. Supporting the podcast like pimps over here. Partnership of partnerships. Repsy functions very similar to a partnership with bands and agents, actually. But we also act as an event producer for these larger agencies. So if you have an agent,

you could still sign up to Repsy and, uh, they'll, they will clean out the fee. Um, yeah. So, and it's also non-exclusive. They don't require long-term contracts. And if you do have an agent, like I said, it's 10%. If you don't have an agent, it's 10%. If you do have an agent, we will handle your private and small bookings for free y'all. If you do have an agent, we will handle your private and small bookings for free, y'all. It's just another helping hand. You need that shit. You're about to witness 20,000 bands all going on tour in the fall because everyone's broke.

There's going to be 20 shows to pick from. It's going to be a lot of work, and it's going to be hard to get gigs if you're just starting to book your fall stuff. So use all the help you get and hit up Repsy. Put your band out there and go get that shit because Repsy is never going to force someone to raise their prices or dictate how they do business. That's not it. You're a partner. You know, they're not, this isn't the Gestapo. Repsy is a win-win situation for your band. So go sign up for Repsy at Repsy.com. All right, we got Jackie Green on the show. Jackie's dope, dude.

I thought he was an alcoholic and all that stuff, and he wasn't, which I, you know, I build these ideas of people in my head sometimes, and when I go into interviews, I'm like, so tell me about your alcoholism. Well, it wasn't really an alcohol problem. I'm like, oh fuck. Okay. Um, so, but it was great to talk to him. He's a dad now and he's, it feels like he's really settling into the next chapter of his life and he's writing killer songs and his fans love his live streams. And, um, I think I've

really enjoyed the interview and you know, I, when I talk to people that I used to tour with that, you know, I admire and stuff, it's really cool to see where they've been in 10 years and how every musician's path is kind of, it's like everyone gets their big old, you know, their great couple years. And then everyone eventually meets in the middle. know, they're, they're great couple years and then everyone eventually meets in the middle and it's nice to, um, see, um, see Jackie in the middle cause it's really cool. And he's a really good guy. And, uh, you know, he's played with everyone, Chris Robinson band and we're Bob, we're, um, yeah, a bunch of shit. So I'm talking away. I'll leave you with this. Um, yeah, So I'm talking away.

I'll leave you with this. Yeah, that was a fun time in Charleston. You don't have to drink every day. Learn from your Uncle Andy that your liver will eventually just say, no devil, shoo. And we were drinking for a week, week and a half straight on my neighbors or my bartrends bar patrons or patrons, whatever the fuck it's called, that, you know, were day drinking with me. And they saw me slowing down a little bit. At the end, he's like, you all can't handle Folly Beach. I'm like, well, I tried.

And I realized that I'm in Denver. I'm going to sponge out my liver before I start making this record for y'all and making this record for myself because I'm really proud about what I'm talking about. And I'm really proud of these songs I'm writing with all these collaborators. So are you ready? Let's have a great week. You want to fuck this week up or not? Because I know you're going to fuck this week up. I feel it. I feel it in your heart. I feel in your soul. I feel it. And if you need to get laid, go get laid. It's summer. You got that vax, you and that girl that you always wanted to hook up with during quarantine. They both vaxed up. Let's get it. Go get it. It's a summer of booty, but wrap it up, dogs. People are horny. The dogs are out. You don't want an accidental baby just because you're trying to bust a nut with your neighbor or whatever at that local bar because you're fucking thirsty. Think it. Think it through. And if you're not going to

think it through, wear a condom just in case. All right, guys, enjoy Jackie Green and have a great week. I think we're going to have a great week. If we make that, if we tell ourselves we're going to have a great week, we are going to have a great week. So have a great week. All right, next up on the interview hour, we have Jackie Green. Amazing songwriter in the Bob Weir camp. He's played with everyone, Chris Robinson band, the whole 90s. Just an amazing, amazing songwriter, musician. Yo, Chris, play some Jackie Green.

What is that called? A dryer? A washing machine. A washing machine makes loud noises. He's the man, and we talk a lot about what's going on in his life now and how he has changed as a person ever since he had kids. And it's inspiring to see Jackie as a dad. So, ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy Jackie Gleick. What's a man got to do to keep a woman satisfied? Crazy comes easy to a fool in love Yes, it does

All right Fine, you pick the fruit of the vine And you know damn well it was bound to cut you sometime Lies, you're a sucker for lies You're gonna keep getting bit, brother, till it make you wise Crazy comes easy

When you're in love Oh, it surely does Alright Alright Oh yeah, yeah I'll show you does Pain is such a beautiful pain You burn the whole thing down just to do it all again You would

Love ain't a son of a bitch It makes strong men big Make a poor man rich Oh yeah Crazy comes easy To a fool in love Yes it does, it surely does Ha ha ha, oh yeah

Jackie motherfuckin' here What's happen happening, man? Long time no see, bud. How you doing? I'm doing great, man. I'm doing all right, considering how about yourself? Yeah, I'm doing okay too, you know, considering. Do you remember? I complain, but who would listen? Yeah, I mean, that's the point of quarantine is just complaining.

You have to complain, but everybody's complaining, so who cares? Yeah, exactly. Do you remember we opened for you in Salt Lake City at the Depot? The Depot? Yeah, years ago. That's got to be six, seven, eight years ago. That's got to be 10 years ago. Yeah, maybe 10 years ago.

Yeah. We're old, dude. I know. You're like, hey, hey man why are you dragging me into this we stuff no i'm old as fuck too dude it's all good but i remember like you were like kind of unhealth like you had some health issues because i remember you on like a yes like an oxygen thing uh well that well yes there was i remember that was the tour that, if I'm not mistaken, that probably would have been the tour where that would have been a one-off

in Salt Lake probably. And I think we were opening for Rat Dog at the time, Bob Weir's Rat Dog. And I think I remember we were in Oregon and we had a day off and I went fly fishing for my first time. and I went, we had a day off and I went fly fishing for my first time and something somehow or another I

ingested something like something out there and I got real sick and I ended up, I remember being, like they gave me my lip was swelling up, I had like some sort of infection you know, and my lip was all swelling up.

The side of my cheek was all swelling up. It was like more than just like a canker sore or anything. It was like an infection. Holy shit. And I don't know if that's the same, but the oxygen thing, I don't know what that would have been, but I kind of feel like that was the same. Did I have like a big patch on my cheek? Yeah, I mean, yeah.

That might have been it. Like the oxygen thing might have just been because of the altitude. Yeah. did I have like a big patch on my, yeah, I mean, yeah, that might've been it. Like that, I don't, the oxygen thing might've just been because of the altitude. And it was, but I get that. I sometimes get that in, in Aspen and,

and tell you, right. I haven't, I haven't bring out a little, I huff on oxygen tank before we, before we play. But, and so that's like,

for me, like in the altitude, like that, just like a little security blanket for me, it makes me feel, feel kind of good. But on that, it's funny you say that because on that particular tour, I got fucked up.

I got sick somehow. Yeah, tell me. I mean, you've had a crazy life. I remember that. It's funny you say that because I'm remembering that. I remember, dude, I was in the hospital in Winnemucca, Nevada, for our day off getting getting like antiviral shots or something and i remember it was like i ended up just sleeping on the that was like one of our

one of our first real bus tours i remember that i remember just like being so stoked that we were going to be on a bus and then i was just all i was sick on our like two off. I was like, ah, in Winnemucca. Did you ever suffer with addiction? Addiction? Not really. Any type of addictions? Not really. I mean, I guess you could say I'm kind of addicted. You know, I used to smoke cigarettes.

I smoked cigarettes. I quit smoking cigarettes about five years ago but i still have i and i used an e-cigarette and i still i still have it um so i guess i'm kind of still taking in some nicotine on the other hand i haven't wanted to have a regular cigarette in five well to be honest maybe like three years let's fucking go let's go big dog that's what i'm talking about sound effects i got sound effects yeah i i'm curious oh my god dude you're professional you got the sound effects i'm growing up right in front of your eyes jackie green dude i love it i love it um tell me a little bit about because i really don't know a lot of cannabis but

yeah never really what about like uh do you ever have like, were you ever like addicted to women or addicted to like maybe staying on the road or like addicted to stimulation? Like, and it doesn't have to be drugs. Yeah. Well, I think that, well, I mean, to be frank, I think that, I think that we're all addicted to stimulation. Let's talk about that. These days.

These days. to stimulation let's talk about that these days these days i mean i mean we're we're consumed by and consume media to an extent that's like probably guaranteed unhealthy you know what i mean like and it makes a lot of sense because we're creatures of stories we like to tell each other stories and we like to receive stories and so we do that all the time and like we have social media and so that's just a way of having everybody's stories in your ass cheek pocket like all the time and it's like i don't know if that's good you know yeah so do you remember a time when uh we're all addicted to it because we need stories to survive obviously that's like how we make sense of anything is we need to you know so yeah well

let's talk about your stories tell me about how you got started tell me um give me the whole give me the inside scoop on like your childhood and stuff like what made you want to do music well man let's go way back let's do the way back do you have a way back. Let's do the way back. Do you have a way back machine? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a way. Like a diddle-dittle-dittle-dittle-dittle, like a Scooby-Doo. I just have just moan sounds. Oh, my gosh. We got to find you like a, you know, a diddle-dittle-dittle-dittle, like a little jingle that's like a way back.

Maybe you can play it on the piano. Let's see. I can't hear it, but... So I grew up, I'm 40 now, so I was into rock and roll bands like Nirvana and Black Crowes, stuff in the early 90s. As a young, almost teenager, I got into high school,

and it seemed to be that, from my perspective, where I grew up, which is Northern California, just outside Sacramento, it seemed like there was a lot of boy bands and sort of a different kind of pop music started to take over. And I was just learning how to play guitar at the time. And I was listening to rock and roll bands. And I thought I was going to get into high school.

I'm going to be a rocker. I'm going to play guitar. Chicks are going to love me. And then the taste just changed, I felt like. And I didn't really go that direction. So I had this love of rock and roll music. And when I got into high school, it quickly turned into a love of blues music and, and old American roots music, which is what you would call it nowadays.

I got into my parents' record collection. Well, I'll tell you that story. As a matter of fact, I remember it was a summer before I became a, he's a freshman, I think my freshman year in high school. And we, you know, you remember back in the day, you could watch, sort of watch MTV all day back then. And it was like, they would have like, at night, they would have like adult swim or whatever.

And like during the day, they still kind of did music and you would like, you could see some videos. And I used to like to watch MTV. But our TV busted. And outside Sacramento, it gets about 110 degrees for like a month on end, real hot summers. And so I didn't really want to go outside and play. And so I rummaged around in our basement and I found a box of old

vinyl records that used to belong to my father my father my mother split up when I was 10 and I was raised by my mother who raised me and three other children I'm the oldest of four so I found this box of records and the first thing i pulled out was called the genius of ray charles and i found this uh little turntable crappy little turntable and i wired up some speakers that were down there in the basement put it on and the thing was let the good times roll and a big horn section kicked in and everything i thought what the fuck is this this is amazing you know and i'm like you know this is really this wasn't you guitar music, but I liked it. Whatever this was, I loved this.

And this was this Ray Charles record. And I thought, I'm going to listen to this. This is great. And so I really hit that pretty hard. And I rummaged through, and I ended up finding like B.B. King stuff and Freddie King and Buddy Guy records. And it turns out that I found, you know, a couple of cool old records that way.

And I went to my friend's parents' basements that summer, you know, and I was like, hey, can I check your basement for, you know, stuff that your parents might've got rid of? Because remember at that time, like people didn't care about records, you know? So, you know, that your parents might have got rid of because remember at that time like people didn't care about records yeah so I you know I collected like yeah this little stack of records when I was you know 15 years old and a little cheesy little turntable and so that was like sort of my that was my thing you know like I had these this old I guess you would call old music you know and um I remember just sort of getting, getting really into blues music.

And I remember going to see a sophomore year, actually, like I couldn't drive yet, but my buddy Ben could drive, uh, Ian and Ian and Ben, Ian could drive. And he had, uh, I had some crappy old Oldsmobile. And we drove up to, uh, to Reno. I think buddy guy was playing the, I don't know, therah's Outdoors or whatever and um I remember I don't know like we were probably the youngest people in the audience you know yeah and uh it was I don't know that's just I was into it and um what do you what was it what what attracted you to blues music well guitar I mean that's i mean i was kind of saying like uh you know i was kind of

went from this this rock and roll guitar phase of of being a kid you know and also slash and people like that you know watching that stuff have a lot to do with that of course and you you get in you know as i i got a little older and i'm trying to play guitar and trying to you know see what's contemporary like i said i felt like the um the popular taste shifted maybe a little bit. And I just found myself working backwards, I guess, towards these older geniuses. And it was the guitar thing. And then I just got into it.

I definitely recognized there's a connection, obviously, between the Black Crows and blues music. So I started to see that. And then you started to read the backs of these Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin albums. You're like, oh, who's Willie Dixon? And you sort of figure this stuff out. And then high school, we're in high school,

and the age of the internet is upon us. And I remember our school had a computer lab, one of the first computer labs. And, you know, we had like one Netscape Navigator or whatever. You remember that? And I remember going in the computer. You had to sign up to get on the thing. I going in the computer lab and i would look up all this stuff you know willie who you know who who was this person oh he wrote these songs oh he you know

and this is you know no wikipedia you just have to like find you just find whatever information you could you remember this oh yeah and so um so yeah and so i mean fast forward i mean things got that information got easier and easier to find obviously as we progressed and here we are today but that's what that's what got me into it was just um find literally finding like a little stack of treasure of these little you know 12 inch records and that first one was was that ray charles record i remember it very distinctly i've told that story a hundred times and it's like i still i still have the record probably it's just i mean it's it's amazing because like those are your idols and then you know flash and go another 10 years or whatever and you're

opening for buddy guy and you're opening for Taj Mahal and stuff. So how was it, what was that like finally getting to experience opening for your heroes? Well, it's pretty, it's kind of surreal in a way. But on the other hand, it was like, there was, there was a lot of, like, I remember being, I remember being on the road with B.B. King for a little bit. And at the end of the tour, he called me into his bus and he said to me, this is actually speaking of the health thing.

He said to me, you always got it was cold out and it was raining. He's like, you got to put your coat on. This is back when I was smoking cigarettes. He saw me out there puffing cigarettes and not wearing a coat. It's raining. And he's like, you got to wear your coat because you don't want want to get sick if you get yourself sick you can't play the show if you can't play the show you can't get the money you know and it's i'm just like oh that makes sense of course you're you know what you're right and by he keeps he keeps his bus like 100 degrees it was like really hot on his bus i'm like oh man must be the southern thing you know man it's really hot on this bus but any you know it's just it's surreal at first and then you then you have a little interaction like that you're like

that's a human being right there like he you know he's trying to you know teach telling you like it is you know it's like yeah you do have to take care of yourself you don't want to be sick you don't want to miss the show you don't want to miss the show. You don't want to piss people off. You know, all that stuff. It's all true. Have you ever pissed anyone off? I'm sure I have. I'm sure I've got them.

I most certainly have. Mostly just my wife. No, but it's fascinating because like, you know, as a kid, you don't realize like, I want to know more about like more about your high school and stuff. Were you picked on? No, not really. I wouldn't say that I was picked on.

I wouldn't say that I was a popular kid. Although I did start to play guitar and was into music. And that actually, by the time I was a senior in high school, I'd been playing guitar for a little bit and that raised a few eyebrows, you know, around. But again, it was just sort of like, you know, the girls weren't necessarily interested in that at that time. But I was, you know, I got bit by that bug so damn hard that i didn't care it was just like i remember man i remember playing the first time i first gig i think i ever played was i was 15 years old it wasn't even really a gig i sat in with uh a substitute teacher of at my high school one substitute it was a substitute teacher in our english class and he like played in a local blues band and he knew that you know he knew that i played guitar

and he invited me to come down and my english high school english teacher came and it was at some brew pub in sacramento and i i sat in on i don't know what it was, like Crossroads or some real cheesy classic. 12 bar. And I was just like, yeah, I was just like ripping the best I could. And it was just like the most exhilarating feeling, you know, for 20 people at the, it just felt like illegal because I'm like a 15-year-old kid at a bar, you know, or this brew pub. And it was outside and like, I wasn't allowed to go inside, you know, whenever I had to stay outside and it was, I don't know, it just felt kind of cool. It felt, you know, the next day at school there, all the kids were like, you went to a bar last

night? Yeah. Were your parents supportive for your music? Oh, hell yeah. They were, they loved it. They loved it. My mom, yeah, my mom came down. And my dad and my mom had split up when I was young, but he started coming back around before. He died in 2000 and, oh, shit. He died in 2011. And he started coming back around when I was probably in high school, later in high school. And he started coming around to shows and he was pretty supportive. Early, early on, like when I was really young, I got the old, you better have a backup plan.

You know, one of those numbers from folks. But eventually both of my folks were just like, they saw that there was just something burning. And it was just like, I remember distinctly, I told my mom, I said, anybody who makes it doesn't have a backup plan. I said something like that. Yeah, true. And I was, and maybe that's true.

Like you do something because you have to, because you're, you know, it's like, it's either like eat or die. You know what I mean? It's like, so maybe that's what it is. I don't know. So did it hurt? Did it affect you that your dad wasn't part of your life

during your adolescence? Yeah, yeah, it did. I mean, there's, what is that, what is that? I don't know who, maybe it's John Lennon. I can't remember. Someone said something once that every rock star is just someone screaming, daddy, look at me or something like that. It's true.

I mean, like. Something like that. You know, I'm paraphrasing it, I'm sure, but. Why did he decide to come back to your life? Oh, well, I'm sure he felt a lot of guilt. There's four children. And so, I mean, family dynamics are a crazy thing. And people come out of all kinds of situations.

We don't even know. So I just, I don't know why. I'm sure he just, we don't even you know we don't even know so i just i don't know why i don't know why he's i'm sure he just i don't know did your did your mom did it did it like affect how you loved how i loved well yeah i think it affects i think having a parent, I mean, I, you know, I had, I'm a child of a, I guess you can call it a broken home. That's what they call it. Child of a broken home, raised by his mother, single mother. Dad comes back around. There's a certain amount of, I'm the eldest.

So, and there are roles that every psychologist would say that there are roles that children take on in those situations uh the eldest generally feels responsible for everything and it i you know i was in like a little bit of therapy for a while and that that's a common thing when the eldest feels like uh when parents split up like the eldest was like fuck i did something wrong it's me i't, I didn't clean my room enough. I didn't blah, blah, blah, blah. There's all that. And that's all very real. But I think for me, like the, like when that, that happens in the parent dies, like I have to have a, you know, my dad came, he had cancer and he came, we,

we died fairly quickly. He needed a place to go. So we, I brought him into my house and I had him pass away in our living room. Shit. And I remember feeling like that's what you're supposed to do for your parents no matter what. Yeah. And that's true, I think. And there's, I don't know, you experience those kinds of things like a very, I don't want to say, I mean, I guess it's kind of traumatic, but I don't want to use the word traumatic because it's like there's something about those kinds of experiences that you know that everybody else is going to have to do sometime. Yeah.

At some point, you're going to have to lose someone that you love or even someone that's blood to you at some point. No one gets a pass on that. And so that fact makes a little, you know, brings you closer to humanity, I guess, to what you really are. You know, were you resentful when he came back into your life? No, cause I was, I, you know, I had a, my relationship with my dad is different than my, my siblings, I think. Cause I, I actually lived with my dad after high school.

I graduated early. I wanted to get the hell out of high school and go live my life. And, you know, to continue my story, I started playing like a little, what was that place called? It's a little biker bar on San Juan. Harlow's? No, no, no, no, no. Real biker bar.

Time Out Tavern, it's called. And I remember playing there before I was 21, like Tuesdays and Thursdays. Or no, that was the Torch Club, Tuesdays and Thursday nights. I'd play Wednesday nights or something like that. And I'd just sit in this biker bar and sing, sing every Hank Williams song and Bo Diddley song or whatever that I knew. And I'd try and slip in my own songs, you know, to see if anybody got pissed off. And if they didn't get pissed off, I figured, I figured that those are pretty good

because they fit, you know, like right along. It's like no one noticed anything. Right. So you're like, oh shit. Okay. That's pretty good. You you know that must have sounded like a merle haggard song that's all right yeah that'll work that'll work you know and so like um what the hell was i talking about i'm sorry man i know your dad and you're talking about living with your dad after 2000 this morning it's okay i'll smoke with you bud so we're on the same level uh no you're talking about moving into your dad's house after high school you graduated that's right we're talking about moving into your dad's house after high school. You graduated. That's right. We're talking about my dad. So after high school, I graduated a semester early and I just got the F out. I wanted to play music. I was working at a day job at the Home

Depot and I was trying to play gigs at night just doing the coffee shops doing the open mics uh down in sacramento there's true love cafe i don't even know any of these are still there the um fox and goose harlows like you said uh this this joint i was telling about the timeout tavern which really wasn't in downtown sacramento it was around like this the sort of the seedier suburbs um i play there and i was living with my dad in his apartment um and so i guess what i was saying is my relationship with my dad is like we we had a rekindled a bit and had a bit of a more of an adult relationship because i'm old i'm'm the oldest. I'm older than my sister. My sister's 10 years younger than me. So my dad, their, their thing is I'm sure is whole is different. And I mean, before he passed, I definitely had a sense of like,

I made peace with the whole scenario and like, okay. Did you have closure? Yeah, I did for me. Um, it's not like I'm'm i'm able to talk about this stuff because it's like i i can kind of see it like i mean i'm 40 years old like his dad died when he was 10 you know and it's like you know it's like i have a beginning to a song where it goes like my daddy's dad died when my daddy was 10. I think about that fact every now and then. And I keep like, it's, I don't know, man. It's like hope. Like, well, cause I have kids now and I go, fuck dude.

What if I die when I, when my kid's 10? Yeah. You know, like that shit. I think about that all the time now. And it's like, I'm sure everybody, every parent does. Do you have, do you have kids? I, not that I know of. I hope.

Oh boy. That's a bad answer, dude. I don't think I have kids. No, no, no. But it's like, yeah, going back, you were basically the father figure for your siblings. Sort of. I mean, that's sort of like, again,

that's sort of the role thing. I think that, again, I'm not going to play armchair psychologist on this one, but like, just cause I, you know, I live through it and, and like, I, for better, for worse. And I guess for me, for better, cause like, yay me, I have a family of my own now and I'm relatively comfortable. You know, I'm not like my kids aren't for want of any thing that I know of yet, yet one's only three and one's only six months and there's plenty of time.

So, you know, but it's like I joined the ranks of all the parents who've come before. And it's like all those, all the things that you, you hear them worry about and you, and I'm maybe I've sort of like look side-eyed at is like, now it looks you square in the face and you're like, Nope, that's real. You can worry about that. it's like you have a new record out right you're putting out a new record i'm working on stuff you know i did with the since the quarantine thing i i did uh i did some live

stream shows almost every sunday the last this last year and I'm going to probably continue to do them probably maybe less often um as things start opening up um I made a CD out of that and out of like the best of those performances and I just pressed up like a thousand of them I'm almost sold out of them it's unbelievable people are like people are people really i don't know just you do the i've been doing the just a donation thing and our fans have kept the lights on and fed my family and it's like sick bro it's fucking sick it's unbelievable people are just people love music and it's just like it makes me it i just tingle because it's it's it's what I've always just wanted to do. I don't really care how it gets done.

I just want to be able to do my thing and have people enjoy it. God bless it. My wife used to yell. She's like, why are you buying all this recording equipment for your studio? What are you doing with all that? I'm like, ha-ha. I can use you now yeah was this the hardest like year for you you think like not being able to get because you're you're i mean you are a songwriter but you make your living on the road totally i

mean yeah that's a lot of us mayor i think that was tough for a lot of people to not just from the financial aspect but i would say for me though, I mean, we had a baby this year. So we had, my son was born in, uh, Ozzie was born, uh, in, in August, late in August. And, um, I, you know, we were preparing for that. And so it's like this last year, 2020, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of stuff we were just like, eh, and we just kind of were focusing on the pregnancy and the birth. And cause it's just like, what the hell else are we going to do? You know,

it's like, so it's like, I'm kind of like, if there's a time to be at home, you know what I mean? Like good time is any for me. So, so it's kind of like fate that you were home during this year. A little bit. Yeah. A little bit. I mean, I, you were home during this year a little bit yeah a little bit I mean I yeah it feels a little feels a little bit like if there's a the universe is directing me in a in a way it's like that's a pretty good shove you know yeah it's like when you build your when you build your relationship or your marriage with your wife off of what you normally do you

know being on the road all the time was it hard for you to like transition into being a everyday, I mean, you probably are every husband, but you know what I mean? Just inside a room together every day. How hard was that? No, it's hard. It's still hard. It's, um, you know, especially having the two, having the two kids, I'll say this and I, And it's like having one kid is incredibly easy compared to having two. Tell me about it. Because it's like, and I don't say that lightly either because when we only had one, sometimes you're like, this is impossible. And what you realize is that you're just elastic. You just expand expand your love expands and uh that that's that's all that happens your capacities expand your capacity for

tolerating nonsense expands some you know with some with these children when they're yours you know it's like other people's kids like like, that little brat. You know what I mean? But when your kid's is different, it just is. And so, you know, I've always liked kids, though. You used to do this concert in Sacramento for Fairytale Town, which is like a children's, it's got like a little zoo, and it's like a Mother goose kind of playground park anyway we used to do this uh benefit for them and it was like a bunch of kids like parents could one show here parents could bring their kids and they would just let them loose they'd run around everywhere

and it was actually really fun because like they would just get little kids like five-year-olds would just run up to the stage and just run back and it's just like people would let them you know they're not because they're you know it's a kid's show it's actually pretty fun so i've always i've always enjoyed kids um but i always knew that i wanted to have my own that's the other thing that might be different a lot of i think i mean there was definitely a time throughout my 20s and 30s where I was like, maybe in my 20s where I'm like, there's no way I'm ever having kids. But pretty shortly after, you know, I was like, I got to be real with myself. I want to have a family, you know.

Go back to this 20 to 30 year old mind state. So when you're thinking that you didn't want to have kids, like what was going on? Were you just like always on the run? Were you just having- Always on the run. Not like at that time. One night just like always on the run were you just having always on the run not like at that time always on the run like yeah like chasing girls like you know uh always having like you know always having like different numbers in your phone and like you'd never know like the last names of certain some people and like that it was like that you get you get kind of get intolerable of yourself you know that it becomes ridiculous you know by the time you're 35 or whatever you're like god what an asshole and you're like you're like and it just doesn't

it's not even that satisfying it's not even that fun and it's just like you know it's just what do you want out of life and so you start i or me i start to think oh man i want to have a family i want to this is i could i could do this for the rest of my life but really like i think part of the thing though honestly though is when you're in your 20s like when you're young like that is like you don't feel that stable i didn't have a house i didn't have a you know yeah i didn't have a i had a one bedroom apartment and you know it's like it's like you're pretty on i was pretty on the go you know and did that burn you out well not at the time i mean that's kind of what we're saying like in when you're that young you

feel like you can do it or i did i felt like felt like I could do it forever. I think by the time I got into my 30s, certainly my mid-30s for sure, I was like, okay. I was feeling the domesticated bug. Is that a word? Yeah, that's a word. I'll take the word. I'll take that word.

Let's go. I was ready to be domesticated. That's what I was looking for. Did you have like a bad situation happen? Or like, was your career going down or up? I mean, I just think I always come, like I may have, I've always come from a place of being,

like sort of realizing that this is, you know, this rock and roll road life is not, can't really be sustainable forever. You know, like in that way, in that way, like in the cliche ways that we're sort of, we're sort of reminiscing on. How many shows are you doing during that time? I mean, we would do a hundred shows a year. You know, we could, I mean, that'd be a, that'd be a lot. I'd say probably, no, a hundred shows a year. Yeah. could maybe not that that'd be a lot I'd say probably no 100 shows a year yeah cause that's like

8 months yeah yeah I mean it's a lot dude it's a lot so what were you singing about my back hurts

just thinking about it my back is killing me well okay just thinking about it as a songwriter like I consider you one of the dopest lyricists on the planet

like you are, I'm, I'm a huge fan of you, Jackie. And I've always been, and I want to, what were you, what, what were you singing about at that 35 at that breaking point, turning into domestication? Like, do you remember the type of song you're writing? Tell me about it. I mean, I was, I do remember. Cause that's also around the time that, you know, my dad passed away. And so I have an album called back to Birth that came out right around that time. And I mean, that's what the song Back to Birth is about. It's what I'm saying in the song.

The song is about a man who's dying. And he's saying, don't worry, I'm actually just about to be born again. I'm going back to birth, is what he's saying. And he's trying to tell his loved ones to not fret. I've lived to my fullest. I'm about to do it again, is what he's... There's a loved ones to not to not fret i've i've lived to my fullest i'm about to do it again is what he's there's a big sort of circular sort of thing and all the songs on that record have us in my mind have a little have sort of that general theme to it so a lot of the stuff that i was yeah go back to that again what general theme a theme of uh of a of a completing a circle

of a circular theme something something that comes back around um um there's a lot of songs on that record the back to birth record it's i don't know i'm trying to say that on on your podcast in the best way i don't know how to say that. Circular. It's circular, man. It's like a circle. It's like a circle, dude. The process. Anything is a full process if you want to give it to it. With that being said, what do you think about death?

What do I think about death? I think that it is... I mean, I'm not going to be... let's put it this way. I practice a thing called Transcendental Meditation, TM. And one of the things that you, that I actually, you know, do you know Joe Russo, the drummer? Yeah, he got me into it years and years ago.

I think he quit smoking with it, I think. FYI, I don't know. Tell the listeners what it is first before you go into it. Transcendental meditation. It is something you've got to pay a lot of money to know. It's basically a meditation technique where you say a mantra in your mind over and over again. And the long and short of it is you do it 20 minutes twice a day. And the long and short of it is that if you just sort of commit to doing it,

even if you don't think that you're doing anything beneficial for yourself, just doing the process of doing it, you'll kind of realize one day after you've been doing it for a month that your attitude has gotten a little better. Your spouse might be like, hey, you're a little less of a prick these days. It is helpful. So and basically all you do is, well, you can, I mean, you can look up, you look up YouTubes on it. You repeat your mantra over and over. You don't, you sit and you. You sit and you breathe normally.

You're not supposed to lay down, but you don't have to be uncomfortable or anything. You don't have to sit in some weird position or anything like that. You can just sort of be comfortable. And I did it in living in New York and always being on the train. And so I'd put some white noise in, and if I have to be on the train for 20 minutes or whatever, I would just do that.

And that's how I learned how to do it. And I'm sorry, man. What did it teach you about death? You're saying that transcendental. Right. What I was going to say is, okay, what I was going to say is thank you for keeping me on track. What I was going to say is that, now, sometimes I would say that,

oh, I'm not worried about death. Death is a part of life. Yada, yada. I'm afraid of dying. Who isn't afraid of dying? I have children. You know, it's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Of course I am.

And so, yeah, that's a very like, there's that. But when I'm doing the meditation thing, it's like one of the things that you, one of the feelings that you get is that really nothing matters. None of this matters. None of it. Not your children, not any, and it's just like, it's a very deep place to get to. But it's helpful. Okay. If nothing matters, how is that helpful to you? Well, because if you're in this, if you're in that spot and you're in that spot of, let's call it relaxation, then you're completely letting go of your own ego and your own mind. I mean, I can't really explain it unless you do the practice. If you do the practice, then, I mean, it's not that it, look, I i mean you snap out of it when your 20 minutes is done

and then it matters again i'm just saying like what were you um letting go of from your ego during those 20 minutes oh hell if i know i mean if i knew if i knew i'd be doing a different job like are you kidding like i we the last person we know is ourselves yeah you know that's like i mean i think the man who truly knows himself is like, you know, God bless you. Cause I think I know myself pretty well, but sometimes I realize it's just not so. So when you, when you go into these realizations where you think you know yourself and then you don't, is that ego? Could be, I don't know. The ego that thinks you know yourself and then the,

and then something else, you know, I hear people that have the, you know, they go on these ayahuasca trips and they have reports sort of similar kind of, kind of self-realizations. I don't know if you, I don't know if you've ever, I've never done it, but I've, I've, I've talked to people. Yeah. You've heard that you've heard the talks. And I mean, I imagine that there's probably a relationship between the meditation, something in your brain, and whatever these substances are that release, or whatever they do.

I don't know either. But I imagine there's something there, and it has to do with our consciousness, and probably something we don't know a hell of a lot about or at least i don't yes i don't you know i'm just happy enough to like i you know see i i'm like oh honey those are pretty coffee mugs that you that you got and but the coffee thing doesn't fit over the top and that really upsets me like that's how simple i am like that's what i think about like even with your career over thing it's like too small for the

top of the thing and do you overthink your career I used to all the time I used all the time and I think that's the best lesson I've had for me for having kids I'm coming into this point where it's like now I have a singular focus it's like I got to keep them alive you know and it's like whatever I whatever I do it's like whatever I do is going that's the first purpose of it is going to be I think whenever you whenever we want to criticize other people we should ask whether they have children

it's like maybe what they're doing is for their kids yeah no totally so what were you doing it for before children I was running around man I was running around, man. I was lighting things on fire.

No, I'm just kidding. I don't mind. I would do too, man. Yeah. I was just, I was just running around like trying to, trying to do music,

trying to like, you know, I mean, I still like, I still want to tour. I want to play music in front of, in front of people in person, because I think there's a, you know, you get it.

There's a vibrational aspect that happens, obviously, that is like, you know, stood the test of time. So, you know, the live stream thing is fun, but it's close. No cigar. Yeah. I mean, you need that interaction. You got to have the interaction. How important is interaction to you? Well, it turns out it's very important.

Very, very important. It helps a little. You know, when I do some of these live streams, I'll have a Zoom thing open and I'll have about 30 or 40 people in there that can dance and whatever, and they can see each other and they can see me. And that's somewhat helpful because then otherwise you're just singing to a damn computer screen yeah and then it's just like wow this is this is horrible i mean this truly is terrible yeah and so that helps i'll say it helps a lot because it does help a lot um at the end of the day, it's like, man, those people, the people in, in the flesh are so important, you know? And, and, um, I mean, for them too, I mean, to, to be with their buddies and to, you know,

the, the culture of going to a live concert for like my wife is, uh, you know, she, she lived, she lived in New York for, I don't know, 10 years and I lived there for four years with her and she, she loves fish. So she's been to God knows how many times, you know, fish plays, whatever. Madison Square Garden. Madison Square Garden. She's been to like, what do they call it?

Baker's Dozen. Baker's Dozen. She's been to like almost every one of those damn things. And it's like her friend, they go, and I get it. Like, you know, and it's like, you know, I would, this is before we had kids, so I didn't have to watch kids but even when we had our first daughter in uh luca in new york uh i just i'm like she's got to go she's got to go to this show i'm going to stay at home and watch watch this you know baby just give me the bottles it's fine like i get it i totally get it so um it's so

fascinating how we change like that like did you that point when you talk I want to go back to that record your record at 35 the full circle did you feel like your old life has come to an end um no not necessarily well I mean I definitely

think there are like in the totality of somebody's life like when you're 90 let's say you're lucky enough to live to 90, you can definitely step back and break your life up into chapters. I think you can do that. Any person who's wise enough can look back and realize what led to what. But in the moment, you cannot do that. Yeah. Right? Because you don't know what the outcomes of anything are.

So I think that for me to say that at that point, my life is different, I don't know that I've ever felt that way. I always sort of live, I'm always living in the moment where I am. I can say now looking back on it in that record, I can say, yeah, sure. My life has been different from that point on. You know what I mean? So you're a pretty present dude. Yeah, I can say, yeah, sure. My life has been different from that point on. So you know what I mean? You're a pretty present dude. Yeah. I'm, I'm clear and present baby. So it's like, or I try to be, so it's like, I think that, um,

I don't know, man. I don't, I don't, I don't, at the time I didn't, I don't feel that at all. I'm just making something in the moment for the sake of making it. It's what I'm doing right now. Or at the time, it's what I'm doing. It's the songs that I have. It's what I've got. This is it.

You know? And you spit it out there and you move on. How important is legacy to you? Well, everybody has, well, I guess, okay. Let's just say this. I would say that I used to think about legacy in terms of your work. And it turns out that maybe legacy isn't necessarily always that. It's the work that your children.

It's like, that was a time I wanted to be a big rock star. And I had ideas of what that was. And I don't have those same ideas anymore. Like, I think that, you know, I used to have the idea that Rockstar acted a certain way and had a certain amount of success and was on the cover of these kinds of magazines and had this, this, and like, I don't think about,

I don't think that way anymore. I don't care. What changed that? Life. I don't care. Like, it's, I'm happy to be on the cover of somebody's magazine. That's fine. But I don't, and that's in yay.

That's good. But when I had these kids, we had our first daughter, and now that we have our son, that shit is so important that like, I don't know. I don't care about any of that other stuff that much. I'm not saying I don't, what am I saying?

I'm not saying I dislike it or anything. I'm just saying like my priorities are really the family, you know? Do you think your kids saved your life? What's that? Do you think your kids saved your life? No, I mean, I don't know. I don't think I was on the, I don't think I was necessarily on the road to ruin or anything. I think I was just, I think, you know, I think, you know, have you ever talked to Anders? Yeah. Oh yeah. All the time. I used to talk about his drinking. Oh yeah. And I taught, we text each other every day. What we're grateful for. The AA thing. I think, I think that's a, yeah, I think he, he would, he'd be a better person to talk to him. I think he was probably

more on that than, than I was. I think I thought that you were like some big alcoholic. No, no, I, I have been more blessed with, no, definitely not alcoholic. I mean, I, I've been more blessed with no definitely not alcoholic I mean I I've been more blessed with being around people who are older than me musicians like who like Anders like Anders Bob and and Chris Chris Robinson people like that who and people who have been older and and have have watched and have had heard their stories and that I'd never, I mean, I never really got out of control, you know? Do you have a good relationship with Chris Robinson? I do, yeah.

What did he teach you about life? I'll tell you this much. That man can go on stage, that dude can go on stage after eating like a bag of mushrooms and like drinking whatever and then like smoking something. I don't even know what it is. And then I'm looking at him, I'm playing guitar,

and I see his eyes are just, I don't know how he's not crawling out of his skin right now. I'm like, you're keeping it together. You're keeping it together. Unbelievable. I mean, I could never do that. You couldn't get fucked up and do your gig? No.

No, I never. The most fucked up I'll get is like I'll smoke weed. But I couldn't get like. That's the other thing, man. I'm not really like. I never really got into cocaine. I never got into anything. I mean, I liked when it was annexes but

not you know i mean for me honestly to be honest it's just like and i grow some cannabis you know and so um i like to grow my i like the whole aspect of i grow on my own stuff i also like just gardening i mean i could probably talk to you about gardening for like three hours dude i got fruit trees in the backyard I'm learning how to graft What do you like about gardening? Brings me closer to God Tell me about that Do you do any?

You live in Colorado Yeah, no Do you grow any cannabis plants? See, I don't have a green thumb But I love watching Going back to it Do you grow any cannabis plants? See, I don't have a green thumb, but I love watching. But going back to it, do you think having a kid slowed you down, or did you think having a kid made you write better songs? Well, that remains to be seen. But I definitely think having a kid just because it has to,

it has to slow you down because it're, you're, there's a, it's a requirement for the, for the baby to survive. So you have to slow down a little bit. So, and you know, and you got, you realize that like the, you realize that like that baby for a long, long time needs mom, like it's got a nerve. And like you got to be there to support and you got to be there to, you know, provide resources and then, and that kind of thing and so it's like your role becomes very clear you know and you're like oh it's time to go to work you know yeah and it's just like and for better for worse that's kind of what that's that's what it is um i think

you know all those people too by the way have kids anders has kid you know, all of those people too, by the way, have kids. Anders has kids, you know, Chris has kids. And so I think that's a pretty good unifying factor. Like you can talk with people who have other guys who have kids, other parents, musicians who have kids. I'm like, man, you know, I mean, I want to talk to Phil about having, because you look at graham and his kids are so awesome there's just such good kids yeah graham's the best you know what i mean

and it's just like i remember thinking that before he even had his had a band and just like when he was younger and just still like in college i'm like he's a really good kid and i'm like this is these are kids of uh who grew up on the road of fucking grateful dead, you know, just like it can be done. It can be done. So that gave me, you know, at the, I remember that giving me a lot of hope when I was talking to my, who was then just my girlfriend. Now my wife, we're talking about having kids were like, how do you have kids on the road? And I'm like, well, look at, look at Phil.

Look at Graham and Brian. They're fine. They're great. They're great kids. And so, but what you realize is that kind of becomes a model, like in your mind, a sort of a high, high placed model. And you realize that people all over the world have kids and they do fine in all kinds of situations and life just happens and like, you can do it. Like, and so. Do you overthink the future of being so present? Do I do what? Do you overthink the future with this being so present?

Do I overthink the future? Oh, I don't know. I don't think I, I don't know. I don't think so. Because if we like, if you think about like, how are we going to do this, but you live your life presently, it's like kind of contradicting like maybe you already knew the answers you just wanted to see it through your the people who inspire you it could be yeah i mean it could be that there's a deep knowledge that particularly when it comes to familial family kind of stuff like that where it's like man it's probably it's in you it's like you know you already know how to do this it's sort of there like when the when the babies come and it's in you. It's like, you know, you already know how to do this. It's sort of there, like when the babies come and it's like, you have these moments where you take, I remember driving, we're in New York and we're taking this perfect little baby home from the hospital.

It's like, she's like 48 hours old. We throw her in a yellow cab and it's just like, welcome to the world. and it's just like welcome to the world and and the guy it's like it just happens to be that the guy's the worst driver and all we want to do is get all we want to do is get home he doesn't know how to get to to clinton hill and i'm just like what the fuck is going on it's like the it's the one time we you know like we want this to straighten narrow driver just get us there it's every bump in the thing and it's like you know i'm thinking to myself that's life dude yeah like that's it it's like and and then you realize and you you realize like people make it work and everybody's winging it everybody your parents winged it you're winging it i'm winging it yeah you know yeah and it's like that's it man it's

like i want to go back into this like Like, is that okay. So with that being said, you know, this idea that you need to be closer to, you love being closer to God, whatever the God is, if it's, if it's a gardening, if it's seeing the love with your kids, I mean, tell me about this. Tell me about this idea of closer to God to you. Okay. Well, I kind of, I mean, I think that when, so when you're gardening or you're out there, you're doing a lot of things like, well, you're making a lot of sacrifices so if you've ever if you've ever like um thinned out a carrot bed you realize that you're gonna get rid of a lot of plants you're killing a lot of things yeah and you start to think about like what life is and how life emerges out of i mean you think about sperm like how much of it does it take to it just takes one yeah just takes one one lucky one and it's like that's the one i don't know i just i just think about gardening and it's like when you're

at the end of your road and you're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and you're going through the tunnel and you're and you come out the end of the tunnel, how do you know that you don't just come to a hill and there's God weeding a carrot bed? You know, like, it's like, I just, there's something about it that's like, it feels, it feels like something that you're, that I'm supposed to be doing, I guess. Like I'm, I'm like, and there are a lot of aspects to it. You're like, kind of working, you know, working the land a little, I'm like, and there are a lot of aspects to it. You're like kind of, I work in, you know, work in the land a little bit and like I got myself a rototiller.

I'm just, I don't know, man, I'm into it. And it's just like, maybe there's a spiritual thing about being outside and being and growing things. I think is, you know, I've, I've gotten pretty good at it over the over the years and I really enjoy it I enjoy I don't know have you ever almost died um yeah I I mean it it's hard to it's hard to realize that I surfing um once my friend Tim Bloom when I used to live in san francisco you know tim yeah tim tim's a pretty good surfer um and he had been surfing i i he was teaching me how to surf

and he he taught me down at at cowles in santa cruz santa cruz cowles beach a little beginner beach and i thought i was doing pretty good i caught a couple small waves and i was stood up a few times i was i was having you know i'm not a strong swimmer but um i felt pretty good on that little beach so and then one day we went up to uh we both lived on near ocean beach and we went on a particularly big day and um he lost me out there in the waves and i remember just getting fucking hammered like i could not like i wasn't strong enough to i got caught in a channel and started getting pulled out oh fuck rather to see and there's um and you know the the waves are pretty tim said they were like six feet, pretty big.

And you're rolling in there as a beginner? I'm rolling in there. And it's like, he found me, though. He found me. And he dragged me out and saved my ass. I don't know how close. I mean, I was pretty panicked, though. I have to be honest.

I was pretty fucking panicked. That and another, there was two times, actually, both surfing. And one was by myself. Tim saved my ass on that one one i actually went by myself and i got caught also and i got caught in a channel on that one and i eventually got pushed back to shore but it was after i got beat up like a whole whole bunch and i was just like i realized like i realized that man i'm not a strong swimmer like i just cannot like just dive out there and like think i'm gonna fucking go for these were you close to god there when you're almost dying i was close to something i mean there's that there's a quote i think that what it's like

one of my favorite quotes i don't know who said it but i think it's from a world war one quote where they say uh there are no atheists in foxholes and it's just like I'm like that is true so did you feel like you're about to give up your life

I thought so that definitely the time I was by myself because I was by myself and I remember I actually screamed out because I saw people on the I remember I actually screamed out because I saw people on the shore and I remember screaming out help or and I remember being it's so futile because you no one can fucking hear you man if you're that far if you're so far from the shore you know I mean you know yeah man that's fucking insane thousand feet from the shore you're just like or however you know man it's just like what'd you learn from that? To not go surfing by myself.

Or how precious life is. Precious life is. I mean, I don't, you know, I mean, that was, that was before my dad passed. But then after my dad passed away, it's like you, you go through, you know, you have someone die of cancer and you're, and watch it happen very quickly and watch somebody become very old age, 40 years in like two months, you know, right in front of your face. And you realize, Oh shit, man, life is, it is precious. Life is very precious and it's fickle too. Cause like the gardening thing, gone, done, gone, done. Don't like you. Don't like the way you grow. Gone,

done. Don't you're too close to that. Done. It's like you're weeding. You know, weeds are alive you know that's a good analogy that's a beautiful analogy so damn so life is like kind of like weed everywhere it's it's like it's just life is what there's abundance of what's uh the hardest song you ever ever came out of you the hardest song not like hardest like so hard difficult to like put on paper like damn most difficult to write um well i you know i think it i would always say that it's what i'm currently doing now but i think hindsight will give you the perspective so it's like i would say probably i have a song called i have a song called trust somebody on that record uh back to birth we're talking about and i and i remember um most of the song came pretty easy, but I remember I can sort of like nail down on this one phrase

that I wanted to say in the song, and it was the bridge. How would you know that you're alive? I got to sing it actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How would you know that you're alive until you've died a thousand times? Because even fools like me are wise enough to say you will have everything when you give everything away.

And that's exactly what I wanted to say. And it took me months, months to just fucking find, and it's exactly what i wanted to say and it took me months months to just just to fucking find and it's exactly what i wanted and so like i have a so i'm like really really add but the flip side to that is when there's something that like i fucking really have to get done it's a steel trap but like i'll like fixate on this one line or whatever it is. And it's difficult, but it's like, I have this weird thing where I can just like zone in on that for like a month if I need to.

And so do you feel like you give too much out and not don't save enough for yourself? What do you mean? Like that with that line, that bridge from what I heard from it was you give love to everything else, but yourself. Hmm. No, I don't, I mean mean maybe i don't feel that way though i feel like to me the line is that you'll have everything like you it won't matter you have if you give everything away everything will be available for yourself oh that's the point of the line less less less is more yeah oh man

did you like and that's what i'm saying That's exactly the way I wanted to say it. Like, you have to hear it in the song, where the cadence comes in. It's like, oh, yeah, that's a perfect spot for that line. You know what I mean? It's like one of those things. Like, when you're writing a song, it's like, you're like, man, it's pretty good.

And you get to this one spot, and it's just like, you kind of have something for a placeholder. And then, like, comes time to make the record, you still haven't fixed that placeholder. I wasn't allow that i'm like i gotta fix that motherfucker like yeah so i want so sometimes things like that happen it's almost like a sports thing it's like you hit that ball to me man like you motherfucker you hit that ball to me you know dude i play in i have a game and i play in a men's baseball league oh cool, cool. I play second base on a hardball league. You know, balls, strikes, stolen bases, home runs, the whole thing.

How fast are people pitching? People throw kind of hard, man. I play – they throw – I would say this. I'm in the lower division league this year. In the higher division league, you had cats that played triple A, played double A. They throw 80. Holy fuck. They throw slide pieces.

They give you, like, it's a wood bat league, man. It's, you know. I talk to everyone out there. Graham, everyone loves baseball. What is it about baseball in the north, Northern California? Well, Northern California is, especially inland like Sacramento,

it's just hot, big, long, hot summers. You can play, they play baseball. You can play baseball up until November, you know, and it starts early. Like we just started our spring season in February. So it's like, it's, you know, some games get rained out, but for the most part, like you couldn't do that where it's snowing still, you know?

So that's part of it. I think the weather, I think the other, I think that's probably most of it. I think the weather. I think the other – I think that's probably most of it, actually, probably the weather. I mean, I'm just looking at your resume, dude. This is insane. Like 2012, you went on tour with Bob Weir and Chris Robinson, and you did a trio?

Yeah, we did a trio. Yeah, we did a trio. That was a lot of fun. And we named it WRG, which is really thoughtful. You guys, we're Robinson and green. Bro, you're playing with all your heroes. You're in bands with all your heroes. That was a lot of fun, man. We did, yeah, we did just three acoustics, three acoustic guitars and I would bring like a banjo and like a mandolin so I

could be like the utility guy. But we did like sort of Grateful Dead with also like old folk stuff and like blue grassy sort of old-timey stuff and I think people liked that tour that was a lot of fun we didn't play we played like with that place in uh in the I love it in um outside of Denver Chautauqua Mishawaka Mishawaka no no no no Mishawaka is the other place there's two places Mishawaka is the Chautauqua oh Mishawaka Mishawaka no no no no Mishawaka is the other place there's two places Mishawaka is the Chautauqua or Chateau

Chautauqua I think it's called it's got a big wooden it's inside oh no I haven't been there it's got a big like barn wooden it's huge and it's got

it sounds phenomenal in this place maybe it's outside of Boulder uh huh either way it's close to you we played that place what did Bobby

teach you about life? Bobby likes to watch football. He likes football. He likes, man, he's learned to roll through life and take the punches too, I think. It's funny because I feel like Phil and Bob sort of have their personalities. And I think they kind of ring true like phil can be he's very serious he can be very serious um studious and you know ultimately an incredibly generous and incredibly like soulful loving human being and bobby and and and bobby can be

kind of like the kid brother sometimes, like you might see. But also, he's kind of a dude's dude. I like hanging out and watching football. He's like working out and shit. He was playing football in a flag football league, I remember, when I first met him. He was like busting his hip or something.

He's like, man, I was like, you're playing football in a league? He's like, yeah, I played whatever the marines men flag football league i'm like fucking right on dude you know and i was just like all right you know so yeah it's just like you know there's people behind all these all these whatever personas like we were saying we consume too much of the media forget the people too you know do you feel like you're happier now that you're not so absorbed in? I'm a hundred times happier. Why do you think that? Because of expectations? Not expectation.

I would say that because having, having the children and having, you know, a wife and having, putting some roots down, as they say, putting some of those roots down really does something for you when you're ready to have it I think if you I would posit that if you're not ready for that it'll do you a lot of harm

because you'll feel trapped but if you're ready for that it'll do you a lot of good because you'll feel grounded that's a good quote actually that is a good quote I'm going to put that in there how did you how does one feel how did you get grounded during those years of just staying on the road well i wasn't grounded

though yeah i think that's the point like there just wasn't at all and or even if you you know but also i don't feel bad about that it's just like there's nothing it's like you're when you're 20s it's like that's what people do it's like, that's what people do. It's like, that's what, you know, especially if you're trying to be a rock and roller. It's like, man, that's like, you're all around. I can't tell you. I mean, how many Waffle Houses have you had breakfast in? You know what I mean?

Like, don't even come at me with that shit. Jackie, this is great. I totally get it, bro. I'm having a great time with you, man. Thanks for being on the show. Dude, my pleasure. I want to talk about this one song. My totally get it, bro. I'm having a great time with you, man. Thanks for being on the show. Dude, my pleasure. I want to talk about this one song. My favorite song of yours is Modern Lives.

Okay. How'd that come about? I was just writing. We were in New York, and it was just one of those kind of songs that spewed out. I remember we were actually waiting. Honestly, we were waiting for an Uber. My wife and we were going somewhere i'm gonna go to the airport or something and it's just like i was

trying to find the chorus about uh or i don't know i was trying to find something time square looks like a graveyard or i was getting real cynical or like all this modern stuff and it's like my god we're waiting for a fucking uber while we're while i'm doing this and it's like i remember just sort of finishing it i actually kind of finished right i had it on my on the notes thing on my phone you know and i remember finishing the lyrics in the car in the uber on the way to the airport i'm like that's done it's like modern lives Your Times Square looks like a graveyard I got a billboard for my headstone and a car It was just sort of one of these really quickly just came out kind of things.

I'm like, that's going to be it. And I was recording, you know, everywhere I've lived, I've made some sort of a studio. And when we were living in Brooklyn, we um we had we were lucky we had a two two level thing and the bottom level was like a little basement with the probably about as almost as big as this little square here so i fit everything in this little square and i actually made uh those two records i made two eps down there in that basement and it's funny because it's like when I first started, you'd hear car honks and stuff

and alarms would go off and shit. I'm like, man, I'm never going to get this done. And at some point you just give up. If it happens, it happens. If the car horn honks in one of the tracks, it's like, oh well. What were you writing about? What were the lyrics like in New York

versus California like what are you talking about in New York was it hard living out there no I think that I mean I think that I my writing didn't really differ that much from my time in New York because I you know I moved to New York when I was that was just four years ago so um i had already been to new york a bunch played a bunch and it's like i was familiar with it and you know i've kind of sort of established my own voice is what i was doing so i didn't really change that much it's just the process it's just the process for me that changed because usually i'd out here before i'm before i lived in New York, I'd have a lot of quiet time to myself, or I could make that. I could make that happen. More difficult when I was in New York to make that happen

and also more difficult to, like I couldn't bang on, we were living in an apartment, I couldn't bang on the drums at 11 at night, you know, you get the broomstick, you know, you get the, well, whatever, you know, so, or I guess this way. I love that you built a studio and an apartment dog

that's amazing I mean and so like I cause I've always like I've always been interested in recording

since I was a kid like I remember putting two tape decks together to record onto one track the left side of one and then bounce it

to the other one as you overdub your voice on the right. You know what I mean? Kind of like how you do like, or you put yourself in mixtapes, you know? Yeah, totally. So I just always been into recording. And so I'd always kind of have some sort of recording set up wherever I was living so

you know and now I'm just like sitting on years worth of gear and so yeah the room looks great I mean look at all these Neumanns and stuff yeah I got that I started using these baffles and stuff these sort of heavy gobos for so we're doing when I have our drummer here he's just like

he's got a heavy foot and he's a bigger dude too so we're trying to keep him at bay well this is great man thanks for being on the show i want to do my pleasure i want to like okay so like this is the last i have two questions two more questions so you said the hardship of that song you that bridge you wrote um for that full circle record what about now what's what's hard for you to write right now? Well, honestly, now the hardest thing is having the time. So it's like, that's kind of what I was saying

about having the two kids. It's like one of the things is, so Ozzy's teething now. And so that means he gets up in the middle of the night and he wakes up the other child. And then it's sort of like, I said this on somebody, I said it's a little bit like when the car alarm goes off and then the next car alarm goes off

and then the next one you go, oh no. Here it comes. Here it comes. It's going to be like this for the next two hours. Feels a little bit like that. So it's a little touch and go. It's like when it was just the one child, it was like really easy to just get up early in the morning and do a little writing. But now it's like one child gets up at one time

and then the other one gets up a little bit later. So you kind of want to, you kind of want to, the scheduling just messed up. Let's just put it that way. Parents will know what I'm saying. So the hardest part is finding the time. but i would say that i'm getting better at um being more efficient with the time that you do have and i think that's the parent that's like the little parenting trick that parents will learn it's like man it's like you don't have a lot of time anymore so the shit that you want to do you better make sure you're efficient at doing it so it's like you know you learn like you that force writing now instead of force writing, but, but actually you can do that.

One technique is to set a timer for yourself and say, you're going to write, this is something that I used to do. And you're going to write about something and you're going to, and you're going to force yourself to write about this, this thing for, usually not an hour, like five minutes, something like that. And then you, you, you'll realize that when the when the alarm goes off it's like you had and you have to stop doing it you have to stop writing you'll realize like oh shit i had like 10 more ideas and it starts to that the sort of the efficiency

oh that's awesome starts to happen and you're like because at least for me it's like if you have like a buzzer like it's like the shot clock is going you know it's like man i gotta get off a good shot i gotta get off a good shot it can't be a shitty you can't just you gotta fucking set up yeah if you got that you know what i'm saying right you can't half-ass that shit it's it counts so it's like damn you really are add as fuck doc i'm just saying you know what i'm saying so it's like you set a buzzer for yourself it's like okay like you got in you know and it for me it just starts to charge that puts you in the hyperdrive so you start i start thinking quicker and you know that's fucking awesome bro well i'm happy for you i'm i'm happy that you're balancing both lives and i'm trying dude i'm doing the best i can well we're all rooting for you

buddy we're all doing the best we can man i. I look forward to hearing more music from you. And I got one last question. I'll let you go on with the teething and stuff. What do you want to be remembered by, Jackie Green? Be remembered by? Ooh, that's a good question. That's a good question. I hope people will speak kindly of me when I go.

But at the end of the day, I hope people only will remember, only thing I really want people to remember is the songs and the music. You know, like I could, you know, I would like to be remembered as, you know, genuinely nice dude, you know, like not, I don't want to be thought ill

of like anybody else, but at the end of the day, man, if people get some joy and some people if people get some some joy and some if people get something out of the songs that i that i have then that's that's good enough for me that's i'm happy with that well at least you got me bud i love your music and i love everything you're doing and i'm just proud to see you just keep on doing it so keep on keeping on buddy you as well man have a great day, bud. And hit me up.

I'll hit you up on Instagram. I'll give you my number. Let's write some songs. I mean, do you produce bands? Do you produce bands? Badly, but I mean, we could fucking hang out and just- I'll come over and babysit your kids and shit, and we'll go write some songs. We'll fucking hang.

We'll cut a track, man. Just come over. I mean, I can play a bunch of different stuff. You can play a bunch. We don't need that many. Who is fucking with Bumz. No, me and you. That's right.

All right. I'm going to shoot you an Instagram. I'll give you my number. Okay. See you, man. Later, buddy. Be good. Later.

How's it going? There you go. Jackie Green. Awesome. That was great. I really learned a lot about him because, like I said, all I know is from his music. And I've opened him for him once. And we didn't really talk because, I know, I was all hopped up on

Coke too. So I was like, ah, Jack Green was up when I first met him. So it was good to get to know him. All right, guys, catch on the tail end. And there we have it. Jackie Green. Wasn't that a great interview? It was a great interview and what was your favorite part about that interview I mean I just like about how he talked about the old school days I didn't fucking listen to he was sleeping in this one too what's that sad how we doing I'm doing wonderful man the last day here it's like the great rejoice right now yeah we're like oh we do it today's the ballot

today's the the ballad the on the final battle yeah uh this is our last day in charleston we've had a good time yes it's been quite delightful and we didn't get sick of each other no i think you did a good job i think we did pretty good, man. What do you remember most about this trip? I don't know if I really remember a whole lot, Andy. It's crazy when you live, when you like vacation. And this feels like when you're on Folly Beach, it's like you just stay here. So everything you do is just one big blob. Like I don't remember any key parts because we did the same thing.

Yeah, it just kind of all blends together. I mean, it's like hard key parts because we did the same thing. Yeah, it just kind of all blends together. I mean, it's like hard. Maybe because we were drunk the whole fucking time. it's hard to cross the bridge. So you just kind of stay on this end

and just, there's like, what, five or six blocks of just bars and restaurants. Yeah. Made it to the beach at least once though.

Yeah, we made it to the beach once and we lived here for two weeks. But, yeah, it to the beach once, and we lived here for two weeks. But, yeah, it was monumental, you know. I closed out the shit show, season one. Yeah, season finale, bud. Yeah, I was kind of crying when that shit was, like, watching the finale.

Like, we put so much fucking work into it. Oh, dog, I didn't know that, cuz. I thought it was your allergies. No, man. I was like looking at it. I'm like, damn, this is the last one. It could be the last one forever, you know? Wow.

It was sad. And then we wrote a song. Yeah. That was, the song is dope. We wrote a song with Ryan Stasek, Ross, Kanika, Stu, Gavin Flamingo. Yeah, Gavin was on it. Then we had Justin from Susto.

We helped us structure it. It was a Charleston song. Matt Zutel killed it. Yeah, Matt Zutel killed it at Coast Records. That's my mojo for the next month, bro. Yeah. Just writing a song. I'm going to different towns and writing a song

and trying to record it Yeah, but Finish it up But it's been fun, Chad I'm gonna miss the fuck out of you Yeah, dog I'm ready to have some Alone time to beat off and stuff

Yeah, dude Go hang your stalactites, buddy But I had fun And I love you, buddy Love you, too, man Every vacation So when's our next vacation? Where are we going to?

I think maybe We do some Puerto Rico in July. Puerto Rico! In July. Brian's going to hate that, but it's okay. He should come with us, dude. Yeah. Schwartz, stop working for one week and come party with your boy. Yeah, you need to release your wiggles, bud.

Oh, man. I'm ready to get back to Denver, though. Yeah, man. I'm ready to get back to Denver, though. Yeah, I'm ready to go home. Chill. Yeah, you're going to Dallas? Gonna go to Dallas. I got a lot of stuff

coming up over there. You got shows? Yeah, we got some shows coming up. Spoonfed's kind of writing some new music. We've been doing this Aw Fuck Yes thing

and just getting all kinds of gigs and other things. Everybody's coming back, dog. It's coming back. Oh, music is coming back. So stay hydrated. Yeah, we did, dog. It's music is coming back. So, uh, drink, stay hydrated.

Um, yeah, we did a lot. We made a music video for drinking in Charleston. We, we did the season finale and the last episode we worked and then we wrote a song live pre-shows too. Yeah. And the pre-shows while drink,

I'm going to clap for us. Dude, we are multitasking while drinking out here, but I am taking a week, so all my Denver friends who listen to this podcast, please don't invite me to the bar because I will say yes. And I need to just kind of sponge out my liver. So if you want to go play board games, Bruza, I'm down.

Dave, I know you're listening to this Let's play some board games But that's it everybody Our Charleston stint is over Back to real life Red Rocks Getting ready for the road for Red Rocks I'm about to work out every day

And sing my ass off You ready? You're playing May 27th baby let's go May 27th Buy your tickets y'all It's going to be special We got so many special guests

I don't even want to... It's just going to be amazing. If you want to take a trip for... Is it Memorial Day or Labor Day, May 27th? I think that's Memorial Day. If you want to take a trip for Memorial Day, come to Denver and let's have a ball. But finally, last but not least,

do you have that last encouraging thing to tell the podcast listeners while before they hear from you again maybe in puerto rico we'll do some live podcasts but ladies and gentlemen to close out the show chad kukuza good morning out there folly beach you guys look like a bunch of happy campers. Sorry we have to leave so short notice. But we will be back, bud. You can count on that. We're going to walk the five blocks and do the whole soiree, baby.

What about motivation for the people not in folly? Oh, yeah. You guys out there, not in folly. Continue your dreams. Do what you love. Yeah. Make sure that you're happy every day. Mm-hmm.

And just, dude, really get out there and live it, dude. There's one life to live as far as we know in this body. Mm-hmm. Make it happen. Take care of yourself. Love your brothers and sisters and your neighbors. Drink water, too. Have a good night.

You tuned in to the World's Heavy Podcast with Andy Fresco, now in its fourth season. Thank you for listening to this episode, produced by Andy Fresco, Joe Angelo, and Chris Lawrence. We need you to help us save the world and spread the word. Please subscribe, rate the show, give us those crazy stars.

iTunes, Spotify, wherever you're picking this shit up. Follow us on Instagram at world saving podcast for more info and updates. Fresco's blogs and tour dates you'll find at andyfresco.com. And check our socials to see what's up next. Might be a video dance party, a showcase concert, that crazy shit show. Or whatever springs to Andy's wicked brain. And after a year of keeping clean and playing safe, the band is back on tour. We thank our brand new talent booker, Mara Davis.

We thank this week's guest, our co-host, and all the fringy frenzies that helped make this show great. Thank you all. And thank you for listening. Be your best, be safe, and we will be back next week.