Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 138: Jackie Venson

Episode Date: August 31, 2021

Andy and the boys are getting ready for their Bonnaroo debut this week. And by "getting ready," I mean to say: drinking heavily. On the interview hour we welcome multi-instrumentalist, musical prodigy, and KILLER songwriter, Jackie Venson! Listen in as Andy finds out about her musical origin story and much more. Shout out to all the love the band's been getting at these festivals. Get your vaccination and stay safe out there, y'all. This is EP 138. Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For more information on Andy Frasco, the band and/or the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com Check out Andy's new song, "DANCIN' AROUND MY GRAVE" on iTunes, Spotify  Don't miss out on the immaculately adept, Jackie Venson! Produced by Andy Frasco Joe Angelhow Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: Ahri Fink Nick Gerlach Ahri Findling Shawn Eckels Travis Gray Arno Bakker

Hey, Brasco, it's Ari Fink from SiriusXM. Bonnaroo, dude? Huge show. I can't believe you're headlining. Lizzo's got nothing on you. Got that juice. Don't mess it up. Andy, Nick here, your consigliere over at the Shit Show podcast. Great job at summer camp.

We were hilarious. We did a great job of being funny together. So I was looking at every Sunday I get online, I look at your live show schedule to make sure I don't have to do anything that week, and I noticed you're playing Bonnaroo, which is a huge, huge festival in Tennessee. Listen, man, don't fuck this up for me, okay?

I'm pretty sure you're my last chance in this industry, and I'm trying to ride what little coattails you have. So don't do anything fucking stupid on stage, okay? They're going to be streaming this shit probably. There's going to be cameras everywhere. Maybe just do the drugs in the green room, okay? This is my big shot. And I can't wait to hear about it when you get back. Hey, Andy, this is Mike Evans over at

Bonnaroo Productions. I got a rider from your manager for the show this year. And I'm not sure if he told you this, but you are not rider eligible. You're playing on our smaller stage. So we will not be providing any of these things for you. In addition, you are going to have to carry your own equipment and pack up the set and clean it after the show. carry your own equipment and pack up the set and clean it after the show. Additionally, you will be paying $575 for the stage rental fee.

So hopefully next year we can get you on a bigger stage. And then a couple of years later, we can maybe move you to the main stage. But I'm just going to tear up this sheet of paper. And, yeah, we're super excited to have you on the show this year. Can't wait to see the act. So give me a call if you have any questions. Today is Friday. Thanks.

Bye. And we are back. Andy Frasco's World's Saviour Podcast. I'm Andy Frasco's World Savior Podcast. I'm Andy Frasco. How's everyone doing today? How's our heads? How's our minds? Are we fucking up shit?

Are we rocking and rolling? The band's back, baby. Let's fucking go. Hell yeah. Music is back. Kinda. I had a blast. This has been crazy. I had a crazy week, actually, this week. By the way, before we talk about me, how you doing? How's your head? How's your mind? Are you staying focused on not letting anxiety just fuck us? fucks you like um i'm still feeling a little anxiety after my little nitrous bender a couple

weeks ago or i think it was like it was nine days ago and you know like when you take um drugs or whatever and uh you know go hard in the paint on some shit you know maybe if too many mushrooms or just drinking too fucking heavy um and the anxiety just kind of like lingers for like four or five days where you like you're not depressed but you're anxious and you're like oh fuck fuck what am i doing um that shit lasted halfway through last week um i don't know if i was just stressed out it's it's really stressful trying not to get COVID. So we could play Bonnaroo and play all our shows. It's kind of like a lockdown.

But I'm on the road and there's like, if it gets me, it gets me, you know, that kind of thing. And it sucks because I've got to cancel shows and isolate for a week. But you're on tour, so you're going to be in some fucking random town for a week. It's just really weird right now to be a musician. And so I had a bunch of anxiety and I shouldn't have, you know, drank my ass off at summer camp. And I had three days to recoup and stuff. And by the third day, I was going a bit early.

We had like three days off. Where were we? I think we had to drive to Arkansas. Oh, yeah. Shout out to Mulberry Mountain. That was fun. EDM festivals, man. You never know what you're going to get yourself into.

If the kids are going to like rock and roll. I have this theory that young kids don't like guitars anymore. No, I'm kidding. No, we had a fun time. Thank you so much. But, you know, Mulberry Mountain was a blast. Shout out to Arkansas. Felt good to be back on that mountain.

It reminded me, I was on that stage, and it reminded me when I got fired from, I played, I was the host of Wakarusa maybe 10 years ago, and I was introducing bands and stuff and um you know I was doing a roast I was like totally into like Jeff Ross and you know the roasters so I was like I'm gonna roast all these bands and I'm gonna roast the Budweiser because I think I'm funny and I got fired I said some crazy shit about like bass nectar I'm like his laptop's all tuned up and he's ready to hit space bar give it up for bass nectar and I didn't think I didn't

I didn't think he liked that or um you know or Budweiser I talked about um how people were just addicted to Adderall and drinking Budweiser's to calm their Adderall addiction down. I didn't think Budweiser like that. So I got fired, but you know, shit happens. You know, I learned I am trying to be more delicate with the words I say on the, on, uh, on stage and shit. It's hard, you know, like I'm just an open book really, unless it comes to like intimacy, then I kind of shut down when I'm just an open book, really, unless it comes to like intimacy. Then I kind of shut down when I'm like intimate with some a person.

But on stage, I'm you know, I'll say what the fuck I want. And sometimes I get in trouble. Like, you know, I told you this couple weeks ago. I had to write a letter to the mayor of some town, not some town is Peoria. No, Paonia. Sorry. Near Telluride. But I came back with revengeance.

Revengeance or a vengeance. And I didn't cuss, I didn't talk about pussy and that stuff and dick and drugs. And I got the mayor back, so let's go. Frasco's maturing right in front of your eyes, people. Hell yeah. Stoked on it. But it reminded me of being on know, being on that stage at Walker

Roos in the beginning of our career. You know, it was insane. Everything was new. Everything was fresh. You know, you'd look forward to that one big show you had because every other show was just fucking no one showed up. So you look forward to Walker Roos like, oh yeah, fucking 40 days until Walker Roos or the whatever local festival that you're, you know, you get a better time slot than you normally get it, you know, when you're starting off in a band. And now we're getting good time slots.

So it's, what I'm trying to say is keep working, keep hustling, all those bands out there, keep working, don't give up. I know this is hard times. It's weird times right now to be out on the road. I'm on tour for three months. I'm watching all my friends' bands. We played with the Greens. Oh, shout out to Baltimore. Fucking A. What the fuck? Baltimore, y'all killed it. That was insane. Singing, that was a pack. I did not expect that many people there. I keep saying that every week,

but I really don't expect all these people showing up now. This is crazy. It's really fun to watch. Even my mom's texting me like, damn, what the fuck is happening out there? You're getting big, Andy. I'm like, oh, thanks, Mom. I love you. But yeah, Baltimore was sick. But watching all the bands do their protocols of what they do, they're locking in the bubble,

doing their thing, not talking to anybody. You miss it. You miss the community a little bit because you know no one wants to fuck this up it's their livelihood you know and uh we're trying our best to um try to keep it safe and um you know trying you know trying to keep music alive because people need music right now people don't know what the fuck's happening out there and we need music so if your friends bands are coming in town and they got a strict protocol don't yell at them don't call them you know we're all doing this together to try to keep music around because

we don't we're going to be the first ones to get chastised some covet breakouts happen they're taking the bands out they're not going to talk They're not going to take the sports teams out. They're taking the bands out. So just be cautious. If your homies are coming into town and they're like, hey, we're in a bubble, don't try to get them out of the bubble because we need them. We need music. Everyone needs music right now. But back to Baltimore, hell yeah.

Holy shit, dude. People were singing. People were waiting for us to play, took a bunch of selfies, socially distant, of course, kind of, not really, but we're trying, I'm trying my best, I know you guys want to say hi to me, and I want to say hi to you, I want to give you the love, you know, I know I'm only in town once a year, thanks for being cool I know I'm only in town once a year. Thanks for being cool with me not raging my dick off as much as I used to.

As much as I normally do, you know what I'm saying, with the band stuff. And thanks for just being cool and being all about that because we need shows. You know who else needs shows? Bands. Repsy.com, baby. I love Repsy. I'm coming back to Birmingham pretty soon. I think they live in Birmingham. Tell me where you live so I could go send you a letter because you're a good dude. But Repsy, come on. You need an extra hand? You need another bulldog

in your ring to fight for you? Actually, no dogfighting. It's not Michael Vick. But you know what I mean. You need another guy on your side rocking that shit with you. Go sign up for Repsy.com. All you bands out there. I talk about this every week, but it's so true. I just saw them give some band a gig at a fraternity house, I think in Alabama, which looked fucking awesome and packed and looked like a fun time. So they're getting gigs for bands. So it's a win-win. Even if you have an agent, if you have an agent, they don't take a percentage. If you do, if you have an agent, they don't take a percentage. If you don't have an agent, they take a little percentage, whatever. Might as well get boys and girls on that squad. Getting that fucking name out there.

It's tough out there. It is tough times. Everyone is going to be stepping on each other. We're going to have to be creative on how to get all these bands on the road. And I think Repsy is the move. So go sign up for Repsy.com. R-E-P-S-Y dot com.

And we'll get it rocking. People are singing the songs on the radio. All the songs now. People are going deep into the archives and hitting me up saying, Hey, will you play this song? Hey, will you play that song? And I'm just, fuck yeah. Thank you so much, guys.

I'm going to clap it up for the fans. All the fans out there. You guys are fucking killing it. You guys are making me feel so good. The band feels so good. You see us having dinner before the show somewhere. You're getting us a shot before the show somewhere you're getting us a shot i fucking appreciate you i love y'all um i know how much music means to you and

i want you to know how much you guys mean to us because without you i would be just singing my singing and twiddling my dick in my room with no one to sing these songs to. So I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you. I'm in Dewey Beach right now. It's Sunday.

We're playing in Dewey. I love it here. It's going to be fun. I haven't played the show yet, so I can't really report about it. But I know it's going to be a blast. I think it's sold out and it's free. So it better be sold out.

Let's fucking go. I'm down. I love it, Dewey. You always take care of me. I'm it's sold out and it's free. So it better be sold out. Let's fucking go. I'm down. I love it, Dewey. You always take care of me. I'm giving you a free show this time. So it's going to be fun. We got a lot of shows this week before. Oh, it's Bonnaroo week. I know I'm going to pump myself up right now. Andy Frasco. Andy motherfucking Frasco. You need to fucking step it up. Bonnaroo. 25,000 people are going to be watching youco You need to fucking step it up Bonnaroo 25,000 people are going to be watching you You need to fucking No holds bar

You need to fucking go to sleep early All week, Tuesday, Wednesday My fans need to tell me I should go to sleep Guys Seriously Just message me on Instagram Tell me to go to bed, drink water Thursday is one of the biggest shows of my career

as of in my young career. I don't know if it's young. I've been doing this thing for so fucking long. But in this point in my life, this is a big opportunity for me. Even though Ari thinks like, nah, this is just another gig. Keep creating, keep creating.

I get, I hear you, Big Daddy. I hear you. This is, don't get my, don't pump myself too much about a gig. Keep producing, keep producing. But I'm telling y'all, this is a big fucking gig for me. And I'm going to do everything I can to make this the best show possible. That being said, I'm probably going to Bender

right after that show. So, Family Fest in Bend, Illinois on the 4th. You're going to see me all sorts of Bender frasco because after that show's over, I am going to fucking rage my dick off. Let's fucking go.

I'm pumped. I'm ready. Got some friends coming in town, visiting me during it. We're going to just do our thing socially. It's going to be crazy. I'm really socially distant. Well, I don't know if I'll be socially distant with my friends, to be honest, but, you know, I'm going to have fun. I'm going to enjoy myself, and we're going to be socially aware of trying to keep this tour going. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be in our little bubble. We're going to fucking rage our dicks off.

Or maybe not if I suck or something, and I feel like I'll probably go into a dark hotel and watch some weird porn and fucking feel bad about myself for not giving it the opportunity but i am i am i'm i'm like kobe in the fourth for bonnaroo so if you guys are there come on out um it's gonna be fun and then um the next week is starting of our fall tour um but i we do need i need to do promote i do need to promote september 1st charlotte north carolina not a lot of people have bought tickets yet i mean it's good i mean more than we've ever

done in charlotte but we moved to a bigger room so come on um nicky uh nicky mcdaniels i know you're fucking huge out there give the give the people uh some of the frasco that'd be tight um all right so the eighth we're in Tulsa. I'm stoked to be back in Tulsa. I haven't been back in a couple years. Going to Houston for the first time. Yeah, that's the smallest. We haven't sold any tickets to fucking Houston.

So if you guys know anyone in Houston, got a grandma or something, bring them over. Love to hang out with your grandma and your granddaddies or your, you know, you got a second cousin. I don't even know who lives in Houston, but you got a second cousin in Houston. Bring them to the fucking Frasco show. The 10th, we're in Dallas. I'm stoked on that. Cucuzas.

I can't wait to see the Cucuza brothers. And then the 11th, September 11th, we're in Austin, Texas at Antone's. And then surprisingly, next week, the week after that, the 14th, we're in Phoenix. And I've never played. I played one festival there.

And that show sold out. So let's go, Phoenix. Thank you. I've never even touched feet in Phoenix, Arizona. I hope the Suns and Four Guide comes. I'm excited. I'm excited for you. The Suns are great.

But you're going to get your ass kicked next year when the Lakers come at you. The Expendables. I you. The Expendables. I did watch The Expendables. It got me hyped up. That movie, The Expendables, all those old motherfuckers like Schwarzenegger and Stallone, they're all fucking getting the band back together. That reminds me of, like, the new look Lakers. It's like, we're getting the band back together.

Carmelo and LeBron and Westbrook. We're going to get these young kids. Give it up for the old heads. Let's go. I'm getting older. I'm rooting for you old heads. I love you. I love you, Lakers. And then I'm going back to California. We're on the West Coast. 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th.

Solana Beach, San Diego. Can't wait to see my sister. My sisters and my mom and dad. It's going to be fucking awesome. Then we're in Las Vegas. Go hang out with St. Rebel and Jammin'. And the boys on the 16th and 17th,

my hometown show. L.A. Let's do this. I doubt any of my friends are going to show up. My old high school friends are going to show up. But all my L.A. fans out there, come on. It's a homecoming show. I haven't been home in a while besides just seeing my parents and stuff.

I would love to see you there. And then I'm going back to my – I went to San Francisco State for one semester of college. I'm going back to my old, all-modern San Francisco playing at the chapel. And I'll just give you all the West Coast dates. September 22nd, we're in Nevada City. That's a really small venue. I hope it doesn't get canceled, but that one might get canceled to me. You know, let's call a spade a spade.

Because that show is sold out to the maximum. And once I hear if it's not canceled or not, or if they're moving it outside, I'll let you all know. And then the 23rd, we're in Eugene, Oregon. 24th, we're in Portland, Oregon. I can't wait for that. We sold a lot of tickets in Oregon. I was surprised on that. And then Seattle, Washington on the 25th. And then I'm playing with Widespread Panic in Memphis, Tennessee.

All my Memphis people, come on out. Okay, enough promoting. Hope you people. Come on out. Okay. Enough promoting. Hope you have a great day. Be safe. We love you. Let me keep this short and simple. We got Jackie Vinson on the show. She's a badass. If you don't know her, you're

going to love her. She is a real motherfucker, dude. She's from Austin. I hope she comes to our show on September 11th and sits in with us because she is a bad motherfucker and this conversation was real as fuck and i really think you're going to enjoy this conversation um but speaking of that be authentic i uh you know i uh i was oh i didn't even tell you this my fucking bus broke our van broke down and um where was it it was like i was weird we had to drive we had 20 we have like three 20 hour drives on this in the next

two weeks and the first one from arkansas to baltimore our van fucking took a shit i'm like god damn it you know how i am i'm when i don't When I lose a lot of money, my Jewish nerves start giving me radar, radar, radar. And we had to stop, and we had to get a new van, and now we left our van in Maryland, so now we have to drive back to fucking Maryland after Bonnaroo, another 30-hour drive. But that's what it takes. Whatever you want to do in life, do it because you love it. Because there's going to be ups and downs and trials and tribulations that are going to test you to see how badly you want this thing.

Whatever it is. Me, I want me and the boys to play music forever. Being happy together. Fucking making dough. getting a car. Oh, shout out to fucking Gator getting a Porsche, dude. Hell yeah. Pigeons. Had a great time with you, Gator.

Shout out to you. Bought a Porsche. My man. I love seeing my boys get successful like that. Pigeon playing ping pong or fucking killing it. And Gator bought himself a Porsche because why not? You're a single man. Go out there and go have some fun.

Let's go, Big Daddy. Go have some fun out there. Let's go. No player hating over here. Hate player hating. I used to player hate when I was just insecure and jealous when I was a kid,

but fuck that. Let's support our homies. Let's support this community. Let's all have each other's backs because there's going to be ups and downs. There's support our homies. Let's support this community. Let's all have each other's backs because there's going to be ups and downs. There's going to be trials, tribulations. And the only way we're going to fight through them is if we're fighting because we love to do it.

You know? We got to be passionate about life. If you don't have passion right now in your life, that's okay. Find some. Test it out. I think I might go vegetarian, actually. I'm talking to my homegirl. She's like, you know, you got bad gut.

Let's get your ass on some vegetables. Stop drinking Jameson out of the bottle. Put some ice in it. Chill it out. So your avid reflex could, you know, have a little, you know, break. Give your, give your reflux a breather from crying out fucking loud.

You know, we're gonna have to fight through things. There's not always gonna be good times. There's not always gonna be great times. There's gonna be shitty fucking times. I was so pissed when my van broke and we're like, oh, I had everything prepared. You know, I am a planner. I'm a preparer. Shout out to my mom. Hell yeah, mom. Thanks for giving me that gene. I'm a planner. I like to prepare for things.

And when things don't happen the way they're supposed to happen, I fucking freak out. And I almost freaked out. I'm like, fuck it. We're canceling the whole tour. I was just like in a bad mood. And I took a step back, took a break from it. We're canceling the whole tour. I was just like in a bad mood. And I took a step back, took a break from it. Like, that's not what you want to do. You're just acting on emotions. Let's stop acting on emotions and start thinking about the bigger picture. Taking care of each other.

Taking care of our dreams. Focusing on the now. So we can be happy. If we can't be happy today, at least we can try to be happy tomorrow. You know, we can wake up, try. Just try can be happy. If we can't be happy today, at least we could try to be happy tomorrow. You know, we could wake up, try, just try to be happy. You know, I know it sucks when we're feeling depressed and fucking lonely and feel like, God, the world sucks right now. I'm just going to marinate my shit, but let's just try. Let's just try to be happy. If we could do that, you know, at least we tried and we're still sad, you know, at least we tried. And we're still sad, then fuck it.

At least we tried. You know, some people, we just have the sad gene. That's fine. Just try to have a good day or a good week or a good fucking one hour for you. Don't do it for me. Don't do it for your friend who you've stopped talking to because you're sad and you're starting to go inward instead of asking for help.

Do it for yourself because you deserve love and you deserve happiness and you deserve all the stuff you see on the fucking social medias and all that other bullshit that is all fake. You deserve happiness too.

All right, guys. Well, enjoy Jackie Venson and have a great week. I'm having fun out here. I love Dewey Beach. I can't wait to go out there and pound some shots and go hang out with some homies I haven't hung out with in a while. I'm looking forward to that.

So find things you love and never let it go. All right, I love you and enjoy Jackie Benson. See you on the tail end. All right, next up on the tail end. All right. Next up on the interview hour, we have Jackie Benson, Austin, Texas. Yo, Chris, play some Jackie. I don't praise your God. I praise the earth and the sky and the moon.

Jackie's the shit. One of the great songwriters, great guitar player. I found her from a stream that Kunj and Live for Live Music put out. I think it was like Atlanta Comes Alive or one of them. But she was doing like a one-man band thing, and it was fucking tight. She went to Berkeley for piano, and then I think she traded in, if I remember so, to guitar. And then she just hit the road in her conversation.

She was real as fuck, blunt as fuck. She told me everything about the music industry. And it was a great interview, and I think you're going to like this one. I like to spotlight this one because it's a summer. It's a summer of showing you new bands you don't know yet, or maybe do, and I hope you know Jackie Benson, but if you don't, this is going to be a great one to get you introduced to her. Ladies and gentlemen, enjoy my interview with Miss Jackie Benson. Well now, changers, come prepare for the wave

What I do to you is witchcraft And it's up to you to resist that What I do to you is witchcraft Witchcraft And it's up to you Fuck yeah, what's up Jackie? How you doing dude? Fuck yeah, I'm doing fucking great

All I gotta say is a Texas sized hell yeah Texas sized hell yeah Were you in Austin? Yeah, oh my god dude Is it hot or what? It's actually not Okay, so you know how like climate change has been climate changing you know totally um so like a lot of places the climate's way different like it's way hotter in colorado than you think way hotter in like washington and stuff

than you would ever imagine same with canada but like austin has been like it's changed to like a tropical climate holy shit it like rains like oh my god i can't believe how much rain we've got in july for probably a good 22 years i i remember like 20 solid years of the rain stopping in june and not starting again until February. Yeah, you're like an anomaly. You grew up in Austin. Yeah, and I remember very clearly what the weather was like. It didn't used to be as cold.

What would you do when you were a kid, when it was summertime? I would just go outside and ride my bike until I felt like I was going to pass out. And then I would take a break for like an hour. And then I would drink some water and eat some fruit roll-ups and I'd go do it all over again. Holy shit. I mean, that's all I did. My neighborhood was huge.

Yeah. I mean, and reading up on, on your family stuff, you have nine fucking sisters and brothers. Yeah. Okay. So check it out.

My dad, my mom and dad, you know, tag-teamed it, obviously. My mom works, she's a doctor, so she works, like, a part-time week is, like, 60 hours. You know, like... What does she study? You know, she's an obstetrician gynecologist. Holy shit. And she, on average, would work, like, 90-hour weeks growing up.

So, like, I'd see her, but also not really. She wasn't there when I got home from school. She might have been there at like 11 o'clock later that night when she got off work, but she wasn't there when I got home from school. That was my dad. My dad was home. He only worked on the weekends. He's a musician. Yeah.

And so the thing is, is that I'm the youngest of nine kids so my dad would be like going down for a nap i'm like well i want to go on a bike ride he's like okay she's like he's like i'm fucking tired jack yeah just just pumped out nine kids dog yeah it's like and his he's like oh my god my dad just basically my dad's a black man who was born in the 40s. And so his life was wild. Like Jim Crow ended when he was 15. Like his life was wild. Okay.

He doesn't really talk about it much, but you can just read history books and kind of draw some conclusions. Right. And like for you, did you feel like, how hard was it to have older parents who weren't there? Well, it wasn't that they weren't there. It's just they weren't there a lot. Yeah. So it was actually great.

It was like the best of both worlds. Were you a rebel? Yes, in school I was. Yeah, absolutely. I hated school. What'd you do? I would sleep in class. Yeah? Did you not give a shit about class? Did always knew you're gonna be a musician yes ever since i started realizing

how much school sucks and how much the entire like idea of it sucks i realized that in like seventh grade i'm like wait so i'm gonna do all this work and you're just gonna be one person who puts a letter on a piece of paper so like I'm going to put in 10 hours of my actual life. And then you, one person in one building, in one city, in one country, in one state, in one continent. You, one person, are going to give me a letter. And that's why I did it? No. Hell yeah. I'll clap to that fuck yeah fuck the system fuck the system jackie i realized this shit in like literally seventh grade well like having older parents like i i

have older parents too i was kind of like a surprise my sisters are eight years older than me so my parents are older too did you you feel like you couldn't really have that childhood that some of your friends have with young, fresh parents just excited to be a parent? Or did you feel like they really raised you well? No, the problem with my friends who had young, fresh parents is that a lot of times they were one of two kids or maybe the only kid. Yeah. And their parents were always there and they never had any freedom. Oh, fuck. I'd be like, hey, you want to come over to my house for dinner and then stay until like 10?

And my dad's okay with it. My mom's just fucking working. And they're like, no, I can stay for dinner, but I can't stay till 10. Like my mom needs me home to do homework. We do homework at seven o'clock. They all had this like strict schedule. And I was like,

no, no, no, you just do homework when you need to. Like, but no, like two later. Yeah.

But then I got to be in bed by 11 o'clock. My mom says lights out at 11. I'm like, that sucks. Like no matter what the lights get turned off at 11 every night what are you a dog are you a puppy it's true you know were you did you feel like you're were you loner when you're a kid or did you always have friends no i just i was just free yeah free and I picked up, I got really serious about the piano around like 12, 13, because what would happen on the piano versus homework, what would happen on the piano would be, hey,

you just put in 13 hours and now you can do this thing that hardly anyone else can do. And you can like go over to your friend's houses and like play piano. And then you're, you're their parents' favorite friend. And then they'll be more lenient maybe they will let them stay till 10 o'clock because you played for them for 15 minutes yeah or maybe that one time you went over to mallory's house all of her friends all of her parents family was in town and you just like serenaded them for like 20 freaking minutes now mallory can do anything for any amount of time with you because their parents just love you one time I had this guy that I was really into and

he was really close to his best friend and so a lot of the times when I was hanging out with him this is like when I was on high school a lot of the times when I was hanging out with him I was hanging out with him and his best friend I didn't care I just really liked him and you know how it is. Did you guys hook up? No, we never really did because we were really young. We were like 16. But we hung out a lot and we made out a few times. It was nice.

I'll clap to that. Let's go. We made the first face a few times. Exactly. We made the first face a few times. I'll clap to that. The thing is, it's his friend who I would hang out with at, with him at his house. Like we would all hang out together. They had like this kick-ass grand piano in there.

And I mean, I was playing like fucking rock monologue. Like I was playing my audition into Juilliard because I didn't know about Berklee. So like I thought I was going to have to go to college for the piano. I just thought that was what I did my life doing. And so that's what I'm going to keep doing through college. I got really intense about the piano and I ended up like putting a lot of time into it. And then I guess I just, you know, you just have a talent for something. So you put talent, combine it with time.

It can explode into your face as something that's really exciting and viable. And I'm talking about anything it doesn't have to be music it could be a talent for carpentry for all i care yeah you know like talent plus hard work can explode into like a really purposeful life do you know what i mean yeah and so i realized that around like 15 as i was blowing off school because i was like there's nothing i do at school that has the potential of what I can do on the piano. Right.

I don't know how I'm going to make a career out of music. I just know that nobody can do this. So there's gotta be like, not nobody, but very few people can really do this the way that I can right now. So there has to be some way. I just knew it, you know,

like if you're good at something, you can do something with it. That's just America, you know? Yeah. What about, that's just America. You know, if you're good at something you can do something with it that's just america you know yeah what about that's just america you know if you're good at something you can make it into something hell yeah keep talking i got background music for you how powerful yeah how powerful was music for you was there pressure from your parents to be a musician no it was pressure from like the potential for either a really great life or a really mundane miserable life so it was like what else am i to do with my life? Were you a sad kid growing up? No, I was just really tunnel visioned.

Because I didn't like school, and I didn't like the system I was being raised into. Yeah. Like everything that shut down last year, and a lot of people were like, wow, I actually really would like the opportunity to start all this over again can we start over like a lot of people were like wow it really sucks driving to an office that was stupid why did we do that why i'll just work from

home like there was a lot of waking up last year you know and all of that stuff that people woke up from is stuff that i hated in high school already. Yeah. So like kind of, you're thankful that you found those life lessons early on in life that you knew what you want. A lot of people don't know what they want this young in life. Yeah, it's true.

It's true. Like, well, it wasn't so much that I knew what I, I knew what I wanted. It was that I knew what I didn't want. that I knew what I I knew what I wanted it was that I knew what I didn't want uh-huh I didn't want to have to wake up at the same time every day I didn't want to have to go to the same place every single day I didn't want to have to be beholden to another person just to get some time

off like even when I'm sick I can't take it easy yeah like no you have to be here at nine and it's like oh my god no like why do i have to be here from nine to five what if i'm done with my job at one yeah like and nobody thinks like that nobody felt like that in school nobody thinks like that in the world very few people think like that that's why we have like four million people quitting the job in one month wow yeah what about uh yeah it's got yeah and also it's it's time management what you want to use you know you probably realize that you know we don't have much time on this earth you know no yeah like i i don't want to spend hardly any time being frustrated annoyed uncomfortable and we have all this technology and all this stuff to make it so that we don't have to be uncomfortable and we

just choose not to use it um just based on the fact that we want to uphold some society that we grew up in yeah it's kind of bullshit it's like you're living your life for other people, not yourself. And you're living your life according to a way that you saw your parents do, but your parents are kind of dead now and that whole world is not here anymore. It doesn't exist

anymore. Why are we paying for radio campaigns? What the hell are we doing? It's the same i know i'm going through the same thing i'm like why am i spending so much money on fucking radio don't spend money on radio campaigns spend money on spotify ads yeah oh yeah you want to know how many people listen to like uh i guess triple a triple a is the college and kind of stuff yeah how many countrywide countrywide the whole united states all right good vaults AAA is the college and kind of stuff. Yeah. How many? Countrywide.

Countrywide. The whole United States. I like a vault. Did you learn how to change that when you started touring in Europe and stuff? You realize there's more than AAA? Europe is different than America, but America, when it comes to AAA radio listeners, it's about 5 million countrywide. That's not a lot. And why we spend so much money on it.

Because we're, we're still stuck in this thing where we think that's what we need to do because that's what our parents did. But like our parents are either dead or going to die soon. So that world is gone. It's been gone for a long time. I mean, like your idea of the music industry,

I mean, Austin was a pretty big part of the American music scene, still is. You know, it's like I grew up in LA where I was the same thing, chasing the rabbit's tail to be a fucking pop star in the beginning, you know, growing up in LA.

I bet it was the same shit for you in Austin. In its own special way, yeah. Except for instead of chasing the rabbit's tail, everyone in Austin is trying to get out and go to L.A. to chase the rabbit's tail. They're trying to get big in Austin so that they can get launched out of Austin and they go making it in L.A. But the whole idea is... None of it makes sense. It's like finding a lake of water in the desert.

None of it makes sense. It's like finding a lake of water in the desert. It's so vague and ambiguous that we have to call it it. We don't even know what we're talking about. I know. We just know of this mentality where you feel like somebody else holds the keys to the kingdom and you have to find them and then appeal to them some magic way so you need x t you need x and x could be anything you need a radio hit you need to get a grammy award you need to get a you need to get beyonce's publicist you need to get like

just replace x with anything you need to get the guy who does the promotion for Golden Voice. You need to get to the head of the SOTY recording label. You need to get like X is an infinite amount of things and it's different for every artist. But really, the real thing is like, no, you need to find a way to create those opportunities for yourself instead of getting somebody who can give you X. When did you learn about this mind state? In high school. Did you ever get fucked in the music industry? Many times, yeah.

What was the worst? I fell for that. The problem with this thing that we call it, it's so ambiguous that it changes forms like you think you're immune to it when really you're just immune immune to really really obvious forms of it like hey you want to be a star don't you chutz you know like you're you're immune to like the really blaringly obvious snakes in the grass but there's even more even more sinister snakes in the grass that relate to this

chase of uh i call it a pipe dream yeah it's not really it's not really real especially like being a woman in rock and roll i bet you have some fucking scumbags who fucking who are all about that shit too yeah or they're just trying to get my money. I honestly get more people trying to get my money than trying to get my pants. For real, way more. Like 75% more. Give me the worst hustle you got that you didn't realize you're getting hustled on. Oh man, I paid for a Spotify ad campaign.

Yeah? And these people were going to playlist my music. They literally didn't do anything. Does that bum you out, wasting money like that? It really does. But people like that always get what's coming in the end one time i worked with a producer who produced a lot of other pretty big artists he name dropped actually this producer was the final lesson i needed to just literally not give anybody a chance who starts name dropping like as soon as they start name dropping they literally get crossed off the list like that behavior is all three red flags

it's all three red flags and i learned that lesson a very expensive lesson from this producer basically it's true this guy did produce um everyone he name dropped but they were all he did all of those projects anytime before like 1987 and then from 1987 on he just was like this alcoholic and he just got worse and worse and worse and by the time he was taking my money he was like so drunk all day and he just wasted my money the recordings don't sound very good yeah so maybe there was a time where he would have produced me and it would have sounded great and it would have gone far but that time was not when i worked with him and paid him yeah especially when you're being an independent artist and like the labels do you have a label did you have a label or did you

have to up front the money it's almost like there's like some kind of like like labels will not work with me and the ones that do aren't legit never had a legit label even like i'm i'm certain they don't even know who i am and i'm not saying that because i'm like sad about it i'm saying that because it is what it is i've i don't ever ever look for labels no i don't think i think a label should find you yeah you know if somebody wants to spend money on you i think they need to find you and they need to be sold before they even talk to you yeah and that's never happened that's never happened with a label so throughout all of my best experiences have been that way you know know. I feel that. I mean, through all this pessimism about the music industry, what keeps you going?

Those moments where you find the right person and that project you did together moved your career along a little bit. It moved the needle a little bit. Because once you move the needle, you know, it never goes back to where it was. It always kind of stays more and more, you know. Who is that person for you? It's really...

Well, I found my manager, Louis. He's made a lot happen. stays more and more. Who is that person for you? Well, I found my manager, Louis. He's made a lot happen. Jack, can you stop that, please? It's okay. We can interview Jack as well. We'll interview Jack as well. Get him over here. He's talking at the same time as me. He doesn't understand

how interviews work. What kind of advice Louis gave you? Louis was one of the people. Because you're probably bitter when you met Louis. So what kind of advice Louis gave you? Louis was one of the people. Because you're probably bitter when you met Louis. So what did Louis say to make you, you know,

be more optimistic? I wasn't bitter when I, I wasn't bitter when I met Louis. Louis reached out to me. Okay. So I, I live only in the moment. So like if something good

happens that day, then things are going good. You know what I mean? So yeah, I don't dwell on the bad things that have happened to me in the music industry. I only let them teach me lessons. Yeah i'm gonna let jack out real fast i only

let them teach me lessons and and then when i when i learn the lesson i feel stronger i'm like wow now i don't have to worry about i don't know hell yeah you don't have to worry about like ever going through that again what about you know i'm saying i feel that i mean what did you learn it feels okay it's okay like the the win is that i learned what did you learn about winning this songwriting competition to let you go on tour with like james taylor and jason aldean oh belt that was cool so what i learned was just how expensive tours are i'm just talking to faye webster about this yeah dude yeah what okay tell me about it what happened so i learned all the expenses i learned what a per dm was i learned trip planning you know having to plan the the

flights having to plan driving having to decide whether it's more worth it to fly or more worth it to drive just planning just caring about the numbers and the and what's under the hood when it comes to a tour instead of having it be this ambiguous thing where it's like i'm going on tour yeah like no no it's it's hard to tour i learned that um having to play and travel in the same day i learned how to do that how old really got me into that how old were you in 2014 i was 24 24 so being so when how many years before you got that were you gigging or were you just gigging locally in austin were you touring at all before that? A pretty wild story about that. I ran into some unpleasant snakes in the grass early on,

like 2013 in my career in Austin. And they didn't burn me or anything. They didn't personally take my money, but they took away an opportunity that would have given me other opportunities like what and they took away that they could so that they could hook their friends up they took my slot away and the a lot of influential people were in the crowd right at my time slot like i knew they would be which is why i insisted on that time slot i was trying to be strategic and the people that were in the crowd are people who control other big gigs in austin and uh these guys just like were like, oh, yeah, we're going to last minute.

Now that you're here, we're going to switch your time slot up. We're going to put our friend at your time slot instead of you. What the fuck? Yeah, they took away my time slot. What'd you do? You didn't bitch? Yeah, they know that I tried to argue. I tried to argue and it didn't work and the guy was already on stage basically like he showed up before me so like he was already on stage and it sucked

it just sucked and like how'd that make you feel it made me feel the same way like throwing away 10 hours of my life doing homework made me feel and i realized there's got to be a better way i've got to be able to just like completely step over these stupid motherfuckers so that nobody ever takes an opportunity for me ever again i need to be to where like no one would even think about switching my slot up. I wouldn't even be included on a bill that involves people that even act like that. I need to get there. And so basically what they do is they revealed to me the ceiling of what I was in. And they also revealed to me a different place I could get to if I stopped running around with them and started touring, started making it so that i don't need one town

to get money i can go to a million different towns and get money and so if something gets taken away from me in one city well fuck it i'll just go to the next one yeah i'm gonna clap for that and then let's go jackie that's what i'm talking about girl yeah let's go to the next one so then i'm not beholden to one teacher to one city to one state it's such a big world i should be able to unless i'm like a terrible person that hurts people which i'm not i should be able to just like step over people and get past people because there's so many of us yeah well it's like oh that guy's an asshole cool next yeah such a huge world you know next oh this this city won't let me in okay well then i'll go to another one there's actually another

one two hours down the road how nice is that yeah well it's at that it's it's that same philosophy like people never leave the town they grew up in because they're scared yeah and then they get stuck and they get stuck yeah exactly yeah but I can't take the stuckness. I'd rather die. Yeah. Did you feel like you're getting stuck in Austin? Yeah, whenever stuff like that would happen. If somebody had the power to take something from me

that I worked hard and rightfully earned, then it sounds like I'm getting dangerously close to maybe being stuck. I need to be able to override these people they're just people and i'm just a person too but i should be able to override it and i should be able to override it by having something at stake like okay you can kick me off my slot but i'm taking my fans down the road there goes your bar sales yeah yeah fuck that yeah yeah i'm saying like i need to be able to defend myself. I need tools. I need resources.

If I'm also just a person, I need resources. I need tools. I need clout. If I'm just going to be a speck of dust, I'm going to be a speck of dust that's loaded up and it's a little bit bigger than the other speck of dust at least. Speak softly.

Carry a big stick. Did Lou teach you that? I already was like that, but Lou helps me get a big stick. Hell yeah. He helps make my stick bigger.

That sounds really weird, but it's the best way I can put it. I'm going to round up the analogy. No, it's totally true. He's going to round up the analogy. No, it's totally true. He's helped me acquire a big stake. What about, so from dealing through this hardship, what do you felt like was one of your big breaks, like breakthroughs?

Social media. Getting a really big following and a really big engaged following on social media. I would say that's a really, really big breakthrough. Finding this, I work with this producer. His name is Frenchie Smith. We were the ones who did joy together. So he produced joy,

but I kind of co-produced it as well. And that was a really big turning point for my career as well. So meeting that producer, working with that producer, because that same producer I did vintage machine with vintage machine has been a really great success as well. So, so I would say like the manager the producer

and the agent the holy trinity man the manager the producer the agent i mean it's the trinity right there i mean it's the same thing the same holy trinity that you're talking shit about 10 minutes ago no because it's different because they're not they're not i'm not beholden to them they don't make money unless i make money it's a better more symbiotic relationship to where it doesn't matter if i get a c or a d or an a or b the teacher has all the power they're the ones paid. I'm the one who just has to be there legally. But if the music is really good and the albums sell well, then I can pay for more time to make more music that's good in which the albums will sell well.

And if the manager lands me sync opportunities and increases my income, he gets 15% of that increase. And then if the agent gets me a really big gig, he gets 10% of that gig. There's something at stake for all of us. So you don't take the businesses personally. It's just business to you. It's just business now. Now it's like, look, you get back what you put in. So now I am the one hiring. I'm the teacher, except for I'm not a teacher.

I'm just kind of like the coach of the team or the owner of the team. But the team needs to be good or else I, the owner, I'm not going to make that much money. Do you know what I'm saying? I saying dude and so it's like but the team but the team like owner they they need the coach they need the players they need those people but those people also need the the owner it's symbiotic it's not authoritarian it's not authoritative like like nine to five jobs are or school it's it's a community it's working together it's respect for each other yeah did you feel like going to berkeley was bullshit too berkeley is very complicated uh the atmosphere was bullshit but that's because like turns out putting a bunch of young musicians together in a school is a really bad idea and there's nothing anybody can do about that there's just nothing anyone could do about that we're we're all the most insecure under

appreciated like we were all losers in high school and now we're all here together and then like also hormones like dude of course it was the way it was duh come on what was i thinking tell me about it let's let's talk about the college years and jackie what what didn't it was just like weird how like people who weren't like it's weird how clicky people were when we were the people who always rebelled against the clicks in high school like the artists who were good enough to get into a private music school, they probably didn't have a lot of friends. They were probably practicing.

Now that they're the cool kids in this community, the clique that they always wanted to be in, now they can do it. Then they start behaving like the people who bullied them in high school. Why is that power

corrupts yeah but like why it's like we forget our morals in this music industry oh no just as humans like i honestly dude like if we went to some other dimension where america was 60 black and you know 26 white we'd probably have the same racism problems and just be flipped. You think so? Like power corrupts, like humans have a hard time dealing with being like outstanding or rich or, you know, kind of like the billionaires of the world. They're just hoarders.

It's like a mental illness. Humans have a hard time with power. Humans have a hard time with power and feeling powerful and it's always been like fear and power kind of intertwined with each other you know like you can get really deep with it like even with the whenever they have like prisoner of war camps or even in like slavery they would make some slaves a little bit more you know privileged than the others and And then that's how they would get those slaves to control the rest of the slaves. It was wild. Power corrupts, man. And if you can manipulate it, you can do really evil things. Yeah. So how long did you last in Berkeley then,

knowing all this shit? Well, I just kept my head down and did the homework. The school's good. See, that's the complicated thing. I was saying Berkeley's complicated because the social part of it is just really bleak. You're just like, yikes. Unless you're lucky enough to find your right friends. And if you're lucky enough that those friends don't drop out, the dropout rate's like 60%. So, like, you make a bunch of really great friends at the beginning and then they all drop out by the second year. That happened to me more than a few times i had one consistent friend throughout but she was always

really busy because she didn't have like she had to work a job to pay for the to pay for the school so she was just like it was it was hard to get time to hang out with her i didn't have a lot of friends in berkeley they all dropped out i had a ton of friends and then they all left so like putting your head down were you getting depressed because you're lonely no this is what i decided to do i'm like i'm gonna graduate early i'm gonna get a degree because i've already spent a year here which is a lot of money at berkeley yeah so i'm gonna not leave this place without a degree after spending this much money here but I'm going to test out early I'm going to study over the summer and I'm going to go back to Austin and study over the summer and then come back and test out of classes and graduate as early as I possibly can and I ended up doing like 10 hours of homework a day and I worked really really hard and I don't

even remember anything hardly from those days do you think and then when i wasn't doing homework i would play video games or i was i kind of wrote a first act of a musical what is it about what's musical about it's called anthem it's a dystopia tell me about it it's like this dystopia about like four young people who like two like one of them their parent was like this beloved leader who was murdered and then another one is the parent of the new president who's kind of like creepy and dictatory and then the other two are just like their parents are like in the cabinet so they're all they all are like children of like people in the leadership of this country that's kind of gone to hell after one guy was like mysteriously, he died.

What, what, what were you going through when you were writing this? It's pretty wild. Hold on. How do you, I think I backtrack a little bit. This is pretty fucking wild. It was really, really wild telling you what it was about. And then just remembering that I was like 20 when I wrote it. But in retrospect now, like what were you, what were you going through you think in your head that made you

want to write something like this i went into like a cocoon because i was just observing people and observing the like i hated high school and i just barely got through high school but berkeley doesn't look at grades so it didn't matter that my grades were bad. I still got in. And so it was just really interesting how in some ways college wasn't any different. And in some ways it was totally different. I was also really far from home. You know, Boston's really far from home. And yeah, it was just really weird, like just experiencing that. It was hard at times, but it was never unbearable i got through it yeah were you fortunate enough to have your parents pay for your education or did you like walk out of there with a bunch of debt um i did not walk out with a bunch of debt i got a scholarship

oh shit so what it was not it was not unreasonable to be paid for. The remainder from the scholarship was totally fine, and it was okay. But I still didn't want to waste that year. I knew how much that year of education was worth. And I was like, I got to get a degree. If I'm going to be here for a year, I got to finish it out. So how long did it I got to finish it out. So how long did it take you to finish school? I graduated in three years. I ended up testing out successfully. And I graduated in three years. I also did some courses at University of Phoenix online course.

Hell yeah. I'm so serious. I literally did University of Phoenix. Are you serious? To get rid of my English credits, you know. I needed to get rid of my English credits. So did they make you take those type of classes, English, math, and stuff, to graduate? Only as prerequisites for certain classes. And there had to be some history in English

just so that the school could be an accredited school. It wouldn't have been able to be an accredited school without having like some normal classes available so you're basically doing two colleges at once yeah i was doing university of phoenix to test out of like the english classes and then i was doing berkeley to get the specialized music courses. Who gave you that advice to go and enroll at the University of Phoenix online to get out early? I just went to the College Resource Center and I asked them

if I wanted to graduate early, what do I need to do? And they gave me all these suggestions. You're like, yo, I need to get the fuck out of here. I need to get the fuck out of Boston I need to get the fuck out of Boston I got my degree they fucking mailed it to me I graduated damn it

so you got the scholarship for piano or guitar yeah I didn't start guitar until the end of college what yeah I basically got that big ass expensive education on piano. And then I came back and immediately started playing the guitar at 21.

Dude, I fucking love you, Jackie. You're a bad bitch, dog. So hold on. Okay, so let's go over these years now. So you graduate, you graduate, you get back to Austin. What made you go play guitar? Okay. So at the end of college, I had spent three years just either doing homework all summer to test out early and then also doing homework at the school. Because if you take the school

seriously, it's hard. The homework is hard. We'd have to write by hand entire arrangements out on manuscript paper. It would take me three days, eight hours each day sometimes. Holy shit. It was wild. It was a lot of work, but I learned a lot of great shit. I'm serious. I learned how to write for big bands. Really?

We turned Sweet Child of Mine into a big band jazz arrangement. Holy shit. It took like five fucking days, yeah it was rad you are a fucking psychopath it was almost like what they say it was almost like what they say about graduate school where you're just like buried in all this shit but like it's really good shit you know but but here's the thing here's the bigness of it though like all of this shit blew my mind and i spent like hundreds of hours of it over the course of three years. I spent hundreds of hours learning this new shit and doing homework and just doing tests.

And that was my life. But then at the end of it, I was like, wait a minute. No, now I have to make money. Holy fuck. That's like a totally different ballgame. There's no doing a test like, no. Oh, my God. What am I going to do? Holy shit. So then I started thinking about like the last thing that I did. a totally different ball game there's no doing a test like no oh my god what am i gonna do holy

shit so then i started thinking about like the last thing that i did i was like okay well when i got into berkeley i was auditioning singing and playing the piano so my last year at berkeley i started like trying to get back into singing and playing the piano and i just i didn't like it i hated it it was so boring yeah and like everything was ballady and like I didn't know how to like make things cooler I was like this is just I can't just be a girl at the piano I'm gonna make like $20 in tips like

I just I can't do this I can't and that was the beginning of the last year at Berkeley I was like how am I going to get back and go from like graduate school homework every day? I don't eat. I only drink coffee. Were you drinking? Were you taking drugs? Anything?

No, I was just, I just, I'm a, I have a lot of energy. It's really nuts. I actually smoke a lot of weed to kind of calm it down. Cause it ends up turning into anxiety. So how do you cope? I just naturally have a lot of weed to kind of calm it down because it ends up turning into anxiety so how do you cope i just have i just naturally have a lot of energy i get obsessive about something and i'll stay up for like 12 hours straight doing it not even see the time go by it's like natural adderall it's really weird i really mean it yeah i'm the only thing i do is weed to bring me down sometimes like i need to yeah so you basically you coped your anxiety through just working and distracting yeah that's pretty much what i do and if i run out of work to do i smoke i smoke a blunt yeah yeah see i'm the same way like i i i cope my anxiety with smoking drinking

and working that's my thing but it's so fascinating i can't drink i get sick but i get that you get sick like what like a tonic i get sick but i get that you get sick like what like a tonic i get sick when i drink yeah i don't have that enzyme that that breaks it down the right way whatever it's called like that thing that you need to to turn it from being poison to being something you can do damn i don't have that enzyme and so like i get fucked up dude that's how i am with pizza i wish there you go You get it. I guess you could say I'm allergic to alcohol. Yeah. So, okay.

But anyway, so like I went from, it was like this huge realization that real life is not like school. You don't, you don't go to a class. There's not someone who has the whole course figured out for the next four months. And then you just follow a template like, no, like you need to offer something to the world now. fuck what am i gonna do so then i start you know like reserving out practice rooms and trying to maybe put a little gig together i started looking for gigs in boston i'm like maybe i can just try to kind

of get back into something do an open mic but i'm serious i just i didn't feel it you know like when your gut is just like i know what's going on and i'm telling you this isn't gonna work you know like it's just like your own gut is kicking your own gut in the gut yeah so i was like this piano singing thing is not going to work i need a show what am i gonna fucking do and that's when i started smoking weed hell yeah oh so you weren't even smoking weed or until no i was totally sober all the way up until about 21 how'd you so what about how'd you cope with your add anxiety when you were a kid i learned how to play rock monon off and almost auditioned for Juilliard. Oh my, you're fucking crazy. It took me like 10 years to learn how to do that shit, man.

I was like obsessively practicing the piano and then playing video games and then practicing the piano and then playing video games. Do you have time to fall in love? Are you in love? Yeah. That's good. I did, yeah. How'd you take the time to fall in love with all your work?

It's like in the peripheral of my work. Yeah? And they're cool with you working all this time? Uh-huh. Yeah, see, I'm a workaholic. I've never had a relationship. You're stronger than I am. Well, the good thing is we live together,

and so I disappear to go work, and they don't see me anyway. Yeah. And then I get home, and we hang out all night. That's fucking beautiful. It works out great. Cause you know, I, I forced myself to take breaks now because I'm better if I take breaks.

I learned that after being so obsessive for so long that if I force breaks in, I'm better. So that's how I kind of got into video games. I wanted to take a break, but I didn't want to leave the house. I wanted to be nearby. I'm like, okay,

I'll take a break. But if I get an idea, I need to go back in there. You know, like I need to be nearby, but I didn't want to leave the house I wanted to be nearby I'm like okay I'll take a break but if I get an idea I need to go back in there you know like I need to be nearby but I need a break so that's how I got into video gaming and but anyways what I'm saying is what led me to the guitar is I started smoking weed and I started getting high with people and I kind of drifted away from the piano stopped practicing as much because like I said I tried to kind of make it work and my gut was just like no this is boring like you need you need to change it all the way up that's what my gut told me and so I started getting high I went to this concert in the cafeteria at Berkeley I went to this concert and this guy was just playing the guitar and he was singing and it was just him a bass player and

a drummer I was like wow that's not a lot and this sound is huge and it's cool and it's like he's playing chords and he's singing and now that and now and now he's done playing chords and singing now he's playing a solo this is cool and I'm like oh man and then I'm thinking about all the concerts I've ever been to. I'm like, oh my God, I've only ever seen men do this. Oh my God. What if I did this? Oh my God. I'm the only one who looks like me who would be doing this. It was just like, I'm high. And so it's just like this inner dialogue of the one idea after the next, while this guy is just having a blast. And then I get back to him and I'm like, man, he looks like he's having so much fun oh my god he can move around he's not stuck behind the guitar moves with him oh this is cool what was this guy's name

Ben Kuttner Duff do you think his name was his name is Ben Kuttner Duff he's still around do you think that guy changed your life for the best? I ended up talking to him because he lived in my dorm. And he turned me on to a bunch of guitarists to listen to. And I've actually kind of kept contact with them. I played a solo on one of his band's records like six years later after I'd learned how to play the guitar finally. Fucking Ed Jacky.

I was going through Philadelphia and I featured on one of their tracks. It was really cool. Let's fucking go. I love that. Let's go. It was really cool, yeah. Shout out to Ben Cutner Duff. Yeah, shout out to Ben Cutner Duff.

He borrowed me his guitar. He let me use one of his guitars to learn my first chords on. I picked up the guitar my last semester at Berklee. And my friends helped me at Berklee. What did you learn from your education at berkeley that made guitar playing so easy i learned that you need to listen to people to be able to play i learned that music really is not just like a language it is a language you're never going to be able to speak any language if you don't ever hear anyone speak it yeah you have to

like you have to immerse yourself in it and that's what i learned at berkeley you have to like see the thing that you want to be see it as a swimming pool with with levels and there's the deep end there's a shallow end and you jump into the fucking deep end and you go to the bottom and you stay down there as long as you can yeah come up for errors every now and then jump into the fucking deep end and you go to the bottom and you stay down there as long as you can. Yeah. Come up for errors every now and then. What was the first song you wrote on guitar? Did you, do you still like it?

It's the song called Oh No No. I do still like it, but I want to find another arrangement for it. I want to re, I want to rerecord it, uh, like an updated, you know,

refresh it. So when did you start singing? Okay. So that's a different story um my dad told me when i was 13 i used to just drive around with my dad i'm the youngest yeah and so for like you know like everyone else is in school but i'm just rolling around with my dad and then everybody else is driving and they all have jobs and i'm so i'm just getting rides from my dad you know like i i spent a lot of time with my dad because of a me being young and didn't couldn't stay home alone and then be needing a ride somewhere so he would just talk to me about shit like you know he would just talk about

the gig that he played this weekend and this guy that he met or this really stupid club owner who wouldn't give him a gig or this saxophone player that was too whatever and was always late or you know etc etc he would just tell me all this stuff and then he would always work in and weave in like life lessons with all the stories really and so one day i don't know what story he was telling me i think he was talking to me about how he was so tired of just being the bass player of someone else's band he's like i'm just tired not having any control like i could book get better gigs than this guy but you know what he's the singer so he gets the gigs and he's the singer so and i swear he was like

jacklyn if you ever want to make any money in this business, you better start singing. Sooner the better. So you weren't even. But he was ranting about this terrible experience he had just being the bass player of somebody else's band, which led him to just like, look, I'm just going to tell you right now. I was like 13. He's like, if you want to make any money in this business, you better start singing. People only care about singers. Isn't that kind of fucked up?

He said that from a place of hurt, but he's not all the way wrong. No, no. Isn't that kind of fucked up that it's true? I think it's true. Some people are exceptions, but even then, if those people were to sing, they'd make even more money. It's true. That's why I like the jam scene because you know no one knows more freedom that's what i'm saying some people are exceptions but

but imagine if the people are really great players imagine they open their mouths and they had beautiful voices i'm telling you they'd make more money let's go i love that so you started singing early so you're singing with the piano before you got to or before you got to Berkeley. Yes. So remember I told you when I was in college, at the end of college, I was like, oh shit, I got to get a job. So I tried to put a show together on the piano and my gut was just like, no, this isn't right. I'm not having a good time.

It feels like work. I don't like it. And that was me picking up where I left off before I went to college. I had already been trying to sing and play and put a repertoire together, learn covers. I was doing that at the end of high school. Did you ever put a record out on piano? Yes. I had a demo when I was 18.

What does it sound like? Do you cringe on it or do you love it? It sounds good. I think the songs are so young i can't say good or bad they're just what were you talking about what were you talking about young love do you always have boyfriends or no like that was when i was really green in every area of my life i only lived in the same house only lived in the same town you know i lived i grew up with some people who moved a lot and they just were more worldly than me you know yeah i grew up the same house with the same friends for 18 years so like you know i i didn't have to go outside my comfort zone very often when i was

growing up which is good in some ways but in other other ways, college was a shock. Were you the only musician out of the nine? No, I have one brother who's a genius. He's really popular in the Houston gospel scene. Really? He makes a full living just music directing for a big church and doing a lot of work in the gospel scene on drums and keyboards so he he's an exceptional he's exceptional as well he has figured out how to make money just on his instrument skills like i said there's always exceptions so it seems like your dad never really pushed music

to the kids he never did but the ones that gravitated to it he really helped us and and he did encourage us were you religious nope my brother grew up in the church because he he's actually only my half brother so he had a different mom and she was religious so he grew up with her mostly and um moved down to texas when he was 16, lived with us for a while, and immediately started working by like 18. Yeah. He's like me. He's really focused.

He kind of like knew what he wanted by like 12. Was your dad like that or your mom? My mom is like that. My dad was not like that. My dad tried a bunch of different things. He was a kick-ass boxer in Albany, New York. His name was Junior Vinson. There are people in Troy and Albany who still know who he is because of his boxing career.

He boxed for like eight years. Holy shit. He tried a bunch of different things. And then he played bass. And then he tried trombone. He landed on bass. He didn't start singing until like his 40s. Wow.

Well, because he didn't have someone like him. He didn't have himself. See, I had him, you know? So he was able to tell me at 13, hey, start singing now, like now. And that's how I got into singing. I told mom I wanted to get into singing and all she knew how to do was find me a voice teacher she's not really into music and my dad didn't want to take me out into the clubs he was like i'm 13 you don't want none of this do

we so i just don't want to expose her to that she looks like she's having a good time riding her bike and shit it seems like you talk a lot about... It seems like you have a lot of memories about your dad. Was your mom really in your life or no? Oh, yeah. She definitely was. She was usually off on the weekends. She came to all

my recitals. She was always there for all my performances. And also, she funded everything. Yeah. Sugar mama. mama yeah for sure she was kind of like the breadwinner of the family what she teaches somebody has to do that job somebody has to be the breadwinner i agree what she teach about life i work really hard and find what you want to do and once you found it stick to it until you're really outstanding at it. And then you'll always be set.

Yeah. That's beautiful. And have a really good reputation surrounding it. Like whatever you're good at also have a great reputation and, you know, just have prowess in business. Like don't treat it like it's stupid. It's not stupid.

It could lead to a really purposeful life to where a lot of things you can just brush off your shoulder because you have your purpose and you're fine. Yeah. What about did your mom have resentment towards your dad's career? No, not at all. That's how they met. Really?

Yeah. So your dad kept gigging and your mom just kept working. And that sounds like a power couple. That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what it was. Truly a partnership. Like somebody has to take care of the kids. But then also with the same urgency, somebody has to make money.

You know what I'm saying? And the person who takes care of the kids can't be the person that makes money because out of respect for both positions, making money and making enough money to support kids is a full-time job. And then also raising kids is a full-time job. One person can't do it. It has to be a partnership. And it doesn't matter which person in the relationship it is. You know, it doesn't have to be the man. It doesn't have to be the woman. This doesn't even have to be a binary relationship in the first place.

Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm just saying somebody has to raise the kids and somebody has to make the money yeah it seems like and that's how you live in america yeah and that kind of fucked up yeah it is but also it's what we got and we're alive we didn't necessarily ask to be alive but we're making the best of it yeah that's true have you ever thought about uh about putting out a record with your dad and your brother? Well, I do. I was on my dad's record.

I sang background vocals on my dad's record. Me and my dad and my brother did a song together on his record as well. So we kind of have already done this. We also have performed together. And I have video footage of all that. How was that? It's always really cool. Yeah?

We can just read each other's minds. We don't even have to look at each other. That's fucking insane. Yeah, I got a couple more questions. It's cool. No, it's awesome. Okay, so when did you start getting into all the looping and stuff? So another thing my dad told me is the less people you can depend on,

the longer you'll last hell yeah i fucking love i gotta meet your dad dog he's he's a guy he is a full just 360 degrees just he's a guy he has been through a lot and he knows a lot and he's seen a lot yeah and he and he loves hard you know he's really generous and he loves hard you know he really cares about the people he loves checks in even if he doesn't want to check in even just wants to watch tv and not think about it he still checks in that's fucking beautiful so you know he you know he taught me how to love he taught me how to love. He taught me how to care about people. He taught me how to care about people that weren't necessarily related to me.

Some people need to be cared about no matter if they're blood or not. He taught me that too. Do you think that gave you... He taught me a lot about business. He also taught me about people who are out to get you. He's like, the only people in the world that you shouldn't care about are the people who are you know gonna hurt you it's like you should not only should you not care about those people you need to distance yourself from them and pretend like they don't exist yeah yes he taught me that so when he would talk about people and he would be generous and sweet but then if somebody screwed him over he would detail me detail to me you know

what happened and why he needs he needs to stay away from that person and why I need to stay away from all people like that. And also, not only that, if he starts acting like this, he's probably like that. If he starts acting like that, he's probably like that. If he says these kind of things, he's probably like that. Signs to recognize the snakes before i even walk in that patch of grass oh my god or maybe that's maybe that patch of grass isn't even worth walking through maybe go to a different patch of grass wow so with that knowledge he was like don't rely on anyone you'd be that one man band you fucking do this thing yourself you put the, you get the checks, you count the money, you watch the tip jar.

Empty the tip jar every hour. From that, you just started doing one-man gigs? I discovered a looper pedal as a part of a delay pedal. Which one? That green pedal? What do they call it? No, okay. That's a really good guess.

That's the Line 6 one. That thing is fucking badass, that that's a really good guess that's the line six one that thing is that thing is fucking badass but that's not how i discovered it it was a boss dd7 uh boss dd7 just really simple literally 14 second looper which is a good amount of time but not a lot of time enough for eight bars right yeah so i didn't know what the function was it said hold i'm like what the fuck and i would like click it and i looked it up and then i looped this cool like rhythm part like i think chain of fools or something in a minor i like was like oh that's what it is and i looped the simplest thing i could think of which was a minor chain of fools and then i just was staring at the pedal and I was like well now I can play a solo

and then it was just like mind blown so you started playing then what did you start adding piano to it and you started adding all the shit to it? Real long story short got really way too complicated tried to go on the road with it not every sound man could deal with that many instruments

coming in just one cable for them the looper technology would allow me a maximum of two phrases with their own output but even then the stacking got to the point then even longer story short um i realized i didn't want to have to be beholden I hate being beholden to things if you haven't figured that out. I didn't want to be beholden to the loop format. I'm like, no. Now I just want to go to the bridge. On the next fucking downbeat,

I want to be on the fucking bridge. It's like, nope. You didn't build that loop yet. So, how'd you get through that obstacle? The revolution. Okay, so I'm like, really? I had gotten a four-piece band. Yeah.

And I did just simple rhythm guitar loops with this four-piece band. It sounded badass. That's the band on my record live in Texas. Wow. It's like the band was so fucking badass. Keyboard player gets hired away by Gary Clark Jr. Bass player gets hired away by Kanye West. That's how badass that band was.

Holy shit. It's the best fucking band in Texas, dude. And then it got hired away. And like, I'm not mad. I'm like, I'd be mad at you if you didn't take that gig. Like, get out of here. Holy shit. Go away.

Go. Do it. Holy fuck. Right? I'm the same way. You're getting salaried now yeah you know like retainers for not playing wow right so i'm like also i'm like i'm like confusingly like flattered like yeah they were really great i know you know i fucking like you jack you good you're a bad bitch dog you know what i mean

like yeah they're bad i found the first and then i'm like and i still have rodney the drummer yeah i'm like oh the drummer can be the hardest piece of the puzzle sometimes i'm like i still have the drummer i'm like i just need to replace like notes and tones parts so i'm thinking okay i'm gonna try a looper show with the drummer didn't work drums were too powerful bass wasn't powerful enough bass needs its own output bass needs to go into a bass amp needs that yeah right bass needs to go into subs can't do that with a looper pedal seriously still can't do that with a looper pedal i check in on the technology every now and then yeah still can't do it no you can do with ableton didn't want to leave the laptop on stage i'm venting all of this to my friend eddie hobes all and you know what he says to me

what girl sounds like you need an mpc and i was like what the fuck is an mpc he's, back in the 90s, a rapper would show up to the club with a microphone and an NPC. And that was the whole show. Four hours. Four hours. All night. All fucking night. And I was like, what is it?

He's like, it's a sampler. And then I went up and looked up what a sampler was. Oh, my God. I was like, oh. And I'm like, okay, okay instead here's the revolution instead of live loops samples in sequence because the thing about the sequences is that you get to build them and then you get to separate them into patterns. Oh, damn. So the sampler is spitting out your sequences. Your sequence might be a rhythm guitar, rhythm bass, and drum part for a verse of a song

that goes on its own pattern. And then all you have to do after that is switch the patterns. Holy shit. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And so then if you're already used to using your feet because you're looping, we'll get a MIDI pedal board that will switch the patterns on the sampler. Plug it into it.

MIDI. Controller. Holy shit. No laptop. No laptop. Did you like hug him and thank him for this knowledge? I told him, I mean, I will always thank him by telling this story like he was like he all he said was girl sounds like you need an npc oh my god because you know you've seen an npc it has the squares yeah each of the squares there's 16 of them some npcs have 24

each of the squares can either be made into a sequence or the squares can have their own samples on them. So you can have a whole bass part on it on one square or a whole drum fill on another one. And then you just make the sequences with those sounds on those squares. Do you think that knowledge helped you map out your social media plan?

I think it probably used the same connectors in my brain, but I don't really know how they relate at this time. Yeah. But yeah, it probably used the same connectors in my brain though. God damn. Jackie, you are an alien. I think you might be. You're an alien.

No drugs, yeah straight blunts blunts just straight blunts when i was a kid up until age 21 drugs scared me yeah me too they literally just scared me like it just seemed like they really ruined people's lives yeah and i as i've gotten older i realized that they don't always ruin everyone's lives some people are really good at doing drugs. And so they make it their whole lives, just moderately doing drugs and they're fine. I recognize that.

I've seen it happen many times. My grandpa drank and smoked cigarettes and lived till 91. So like, I'm not such a narc about it anymore, but when I was a kid, I was really afraid of them and seemed like they really were just like the literal devil. Yeah. And like movies and television didn't help you know all the propaganda hey yeah all the drug war drug war propaganda all

that fucking reagan bullshit you know yeah that doesn't help doesn't help so like i was really scared of it but then like when i went to berkeley i started to be around weed more and i started to learn more about it and like of course i met i met the hippie yeah and the hippie was like no bro it's not a drug it's an herb i got i got opened up that whole you know spiel yeah and uh it was reasonable and then i'd do research on the internet for it and then i thought you know it'd be pretty cool to have a vice i literally chose to do weed i was like i think i'm gonna try it with weed i'm gonna really try it and if i don't like it at first i'm gonna try it again because it seems like if i get hooked on it or something it's not gonna kill me so and if i'm gonna have a vice

i want the vice to be something that won't kill me yeah no matter what i do it won't kill me so how much weed you smoking nowadays oh probably like two grams see isn't amazing how we change like that oh fuck yeah it's like developing a taste for wine after you thought it was like puke juice yeah oh jackie what is jack jack i'll let you go but thank you so much for this i i we got to be friends because your your stories are very parallel to my stories like and i'm just very fascinated with this and we got to play some shows together and we i think we need to start fucking shit up together that i think yeah we got to do that i want to i want to hang out with the jam people that don't care so much about singers yeah yeah no we're in it because

you're great you're great in the scene and uh you know we're all in this together my community is uh we we welcome everyone in open arms so thank you for being part of the show i appreciate this no problem i really appreciate having me on the show man no problem you got anything you're working on or promoting or what do you got oh yeah so check it out i just dropped a new single because i'm coming out with a new record on in september so i just dropped a new single cause I'm coming out with a new record on in September. So I just dropped a new single. It's everywhere.

It's called till this pain goes away and I'm about to drop the second single before I dropped the album. We'll drop it in August. Well, and so I keep a lookout for a, you'll follow me on spot on Spotify or whatnot and I'll drop something new soon. You bad bitch,

Jackie. Let's go. Queen. Some queen go. Queen. Some queen shit right here. Drinking Coca-Cols and smoking blunts. I fucking love it. We're just queens and kings just chatting. Queens and kings chatting on a Tuesday.

Whatever day it is today. Or something. Or whatever day. I got one last question for you. I like to end the show with this always. Jackie, what do you want to be remembered by? you. I like to end the show with this always. Jackie, what do you want to be remembered by?

The tone of my guitar. The sound of my fingers striking and bending the strings. I want people to hear that tone and be like, yes, Jackie, definitely. 100%. She doesn't even have to sing. She doesn't even sing on this track.

That's her on the guitar that's how important your guitar is to you yeah because I just really wanted to be great I wanted to be great at the guitar and I didn't know what that meant 10 years ago and now I know that that's what that means and now that's what I want

I want to be remembered for the tone of the guitar. And I don't want people to remember it like, oh, the best ever, like, go! Not an ego thing. I just want it to be just a memory. Whether you like how I play the guitar or not, you still know that's me. Yeah. Well, that's the same.

It's that idea of being individual. that's me. Yeah. Well, that's the same. It's that idea of being individual, being that you stand on two feet and you're not going to take no shit from fucking, I'm going to pump you up right now.

You're not going to take no shit from any fucking record labels. You're not going to take no shit from publicists. Nobody, Jackie, no bandmates. If they start fucking with you, I will fuck them up. You promised me that.

Okay. All right. I'm done with that. Your sound effects are fucking pro dude but doing this a little bit now i've been doing this i'm so impressed well looking forward to it i'm gonna add you on insta and give you my number let's start texting and be friends yeah let's do it send me some memes man i know trust trust me. I got you 100%. Send me some fucking memes. I'm so down. It might take me like a few days to check them sometimes.

That's okay. But send me some fucking memes. I'm a psychopath. I'll probably respond after those two weeks you respond. I'll probably respond in five minutes because that's what I do. And then I'll respond in five minutes after that. And then I won't respond for like three weeks. I'm glad we're on the same page. So we're good. gonna be like i love it yeah that's life though you know i think like

you have good friends you don't need to talk to them every day just when especially in the summer when you're both musicians and the world is turning back on this is fucking crazy out here man i know dude i feel these these streets are running rapid. We're like dogs running in the streets. We're just like out. Drinking everyone's pool water. Out here, you know. Drinking out of hoses and shit.

Well, thanks for being on the show, Jackie. Hope you have a great day. Alright, you can see it, man. We'll talk again soon. Later, dude. There you go. Fuck yeah, that was great. Oh, man. I'll talk again soon. Later, dude. There you go. Fuck yeah. That was great. Oh, man. I really like Jackie. That was really fun.

I learned a lot. She's a hustler, dude. She rocks. And she's like, a lot of people's brains, you know, going through shit. You either figure it out through just hard work or people give you it. And I feel like she fucking, she's the exact person she wants to be and she's been like that forever. So fuck yeah.

Let's go, Jackie. Nice work. We love you over here at the podcast. Now, a message from the UN. Yeah. Hiding in the bathroom With some shady dude That I've never met He makes hat pins

And wears drug rugs He's a flow artist I've never heard of that Hands me Key bumps He's got an LLC I've never heard of that Hands me G-bumps He's got an LLC Heavy Hat pins

Just one bump Then I swear I will go to bed Line after line It's the most poignant thing That I've ever said Line after line It's the most poignant thing that I've ever said Line after line Just one more and I swear I will go to bed Line after line

Line after line Line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line after line There's gotta be more, right? It's gone? It's gone? Alright, and there you have it. Jackie Vinton, badass, right? What a badass. Shout out to Jackie. Let's go, Jackie.

Way to go. That shit was tight. Fucking fire. There you have it, guys. I hope you had a great one. I'm on the road still. The boys are watching Sopranos. They are on a fucking Sopranos kick.

We've watched five hours of Sopranos on our day off. And I think our drummer, Andy Beetz, is convinced that he's the Mexican Tony Soprano now. He wanted me to pay him in cash, in a Wall a wall, in a Wall Street market, whatever that Wall Street paper, newspaper.

So shout out to our new mafia owner, Andy Beetz. Let's go, big dog. You like what you like, I get it. But I hope you have a great week. Fucking, we got a big one. We got Bonnaroo in a couple days. Fucking jacked up about that. We're ready to rock.

We're ready. It's like I, the tiger, I've been waiting for this moment. I'm going to put my dick out there, not physically, but with intention. And try to give this fucking show what it deserves. And yeah, this is a big launch party for us. So I'll be preparing for that, but I'll probably get a podcast in next week. Actually, I am.

I'm going to get La Special. Our boys from La Special, this band, I really like them. They're really blowing up in the jam scene, and I wanted to give them some time to tell me what they're all about. And I really dig it. So I think you're going to dig next week's episode with Le Special.

The podcast keeps rocking. Thanks. It's already August. It's September. In a couple days, holy fuck. Time's flying. Better find out what you want to do. Find out what you love and fucking fight for it. We don't fight for love.

What are we fighting for? I don't want to fight for anything. I don't have enough time to fight for anything. So if we don't fight for love, what are we fighting for? I don't want to fight for anything. I don't have enough time to fight for anything I don't love. I realize that. I am too busy to fight about shit that I don't personally love. So find something you love and if you don't have something you love yet,

it's okay. Stop looking. You'll find it. All right, guys. Be safe. Stay woke, as the kids say. And stay inspired. And we're going to get through all this shit.

I know it's tough. Things are tough right now. But life shouldn't be always good. Because when it's always good, you don't appreciate the good moments. You got to feel the dirt. You got to get fucking dirty and fucking get emotional and cry and fucking have a shitty day. It's okay to have shitty days. Don't forget that.

Shitty days are just part of life and life is the whole picture and not just a good thing. So stop thinking like you're on social media during your real life. Let that be your little facade for a couple hours. But when you're actually spending your real life, we just got to realize that there's going to be ups, there's going to be downs. And if we could be optimistic to the downs so we could appreciate the ups,

that's what I'm talking about. All right, guys. I love you. And I'll see you. I'll see you either I'll see you on you and I'll see you I'll see you either I'll see you on tour or I'll see you in a week love you

you tuned in to the World's Heavy Podcast with Andy Fresco now in it's fourth season thank you for listening to this episode produced by Andy Fresco Joe Angelo

and Chris Lawrence we need you to help us save the world and spread the word please subscribe rate the show give us the crazy stars.

iTunes. Spotify. Wherever you're picking this shit up. Follow us on Instagram at world saving podcast. For more info and updates. Crash course blogs and tour dates. You'll find at andyfreshcraft.com. And check our socials.

To see what's up next. Might be a video dance party. A showcase concert. That crazy shit show. Or whatever springs to Andy's wicked brain. And after a year of keeping clean and playing safe, the band is back on tour.

We thank our brand new talent booker, Mara Davis. We thank this week's guest, our co-host, and all the fringy frenzies that help make this show great. Thank you all. And thank you for listening. Be your best, be safe, and we will be back next week. No animals were harmed in the making of this podcast.

As far as we know, any similarity, junction, or knowledge, facts, or fake is purely coincidental.