Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 168: John Craigie & Twiddle
Episode Date: April 19, 2022Like sand through the hourglass, so are the days of our Twiddle. The boys gather round to process some heavy emotions upon the end of their run together and to talk about hot-bagging on the tour bus. ...Also! On the Interview Hour we got one of our all time favorites, John Craigie! He remains dude of the year in our book. You can watch this bad boy on youtube if you're more of a visual person Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For more information on Andy Frasco, the band and/or the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com Check out Andy's new song, "Puff Break (Believe That)" on iTunes, Spotify Check out Craigie's new album! johncraigiemusic.com Produced by Andy Frasco Joe Angelhow Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: Ryan Dempsey The U.N. Arno Bakker
Transcript
Discussion (0)
Um, hey Andy, it's Ryan Patrick Dempsey from the band Twiddle.
Um, calling you again, man. Um, okay, well, you know, hit me back. This is the 10th time I've
tried to call. It's Ryan Patrick Dempsey from the band Twiddle again. We've been on tour with you.
I play the piano. All right, man.
Take me back.
Love you so much.
Bye-bye.
I'm on my last straw right now.
You know, call me back.
You call Mickey back.
You call Mahali back every time.
But no, what's old Ryan calls again?
Where's Andy all of a sudden?
Where is he?
You know, he's out hanging out with his better friends maybe?
Just call me back, dude.
Martin Zuckerberg did this to me a long time ago
and I know an abusive relationship.
You tell me you're going to pick up.
You tell me you're going to pick up
every time I call
and every time I call
I get the same
fucking answering machine.
No, I wouldn't.
Fuck you, dude.
I know I'm not Mahali
but I'm dressing my poo very soon.
I want to get this thing going.
Please call me back.
Bye.
One, two, three.
Let's make some friends
in the Twiddle Crown.
And do all their
cocaine.
Let's make some friends
and do all of
their cocaine.
Oh, let's make some friends and you all of that cocaine oh let's
make some friends
oh let's make
some friends
let's make some
friends
and today
alright let's get out there boys
let's get out there, boys.
One big happy goddamn family out here.
And we're back.
Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast.
I'm Andy Frasco.
And I'm with, it makes me sad, but I'm with the whole fucking gang tonight.
What's up?
We got Twitter on the building.
Let's go.
Wow.
The boys. Even got the new guy, Adrian, just sitting on the building. Let's go. Wow. The boys.
We even got the new guy,
Adrian,
just sitting in the back,
just putting in the corner over there.
What a fucking tour.
We are in Washington.
We are in Richmond, Virginia.
Richmond, Virginia.
Where the fuck?
Wrong side of the country.
Oh, this tour has been fun
Mickey how you doing buddy
I'm good man how are you
You ready
I miss you already
I know
It's gonna be sad
It's been quite a lovely experience
It's been
From everything
From buying overpriced shoes with you
To almost getting killed by the nitrous mafia
With Ryan Dempsey
What the fuck Dempsey
Yeah no that was fun.
You had my back the whole time, though.
You weren't going to let them hurt me.
I would never let them hurt you.
And we got Gubb.
I never get to talk to Gubb.
Gubb's in here at the building, too.
What's up, Gubb?
Let's go.
What's up?
How's it going?
I'm good. How you doing?
How is it having a pocket with Adrian over here?
Oh, my Lord.
I live every day for the moment he turns and looks at me and smiles because I did something
right.
Oh, nice.
Hey.
Yeah.
Adrian, do you feel the same way?
Yeah, I feel it's like a nice shoe that fits right here.
Yeah.
It's like broken in well and deep gaping pockets.
Yeah, it fits well fits well
we go in
I remember this tour forever because
when you go on tour with a band
sometimes the chemistry does not work
on the hang part
we're not going to call names out or anything
but you will
talk your shit Dempsey
we're going to go there come on dempsey get it out but we've been really
vibing here and uh i'm just gonna miss every second of it this is gonna be a great one how
you doing sean you holding up i'm here hi i get just enough sleep
that's the hardest part you know just getting enough fucking sleep you guys you guys just
stay up all night i've been staying up all night with dempsey every night talking smoking cigarettes
with the fucking driver gta too yeah yeah we had a great talk with our driver yeah you were
enamored and like totally focused in on you're like right shut up he had so many stories like
just yeah i don't know if you want to tell the stories he had.
Do you always get close with your bus drivers,
or is it everyone's different?
It's mostly me.
It's usually me.
It's just you.
You're crazy, yes.
Once I know that someone's a Trump supporter,
I kind of back off.
Let's not go there.
Okay, I'm not coming up here again.
There's a few drivers that don't like Ryan.
Say that again, Mickey?
A couple drivers haven't liked Ryan.
What's the worst Ryan experience with a driver?
I don't know.
Gub, you think you got this one?
Well, it depends on if Ryan wants me to tell him about that.
I mean, he was pretty proud of it, but one night...
Yeah?
Yeah, one night he just walked off the bus for a cigarette and found a dead owl and he took the owl and placed it propped it right up in the bathroom to see who
would fucking run into it are you fucking serious yeah did it smell yeah defend yourself there
you have anything to say about that?
No, I just woke up in the middle of the night to take a piss.
And I was just, I was saying piss, and I, you know, my heart, like, jumped out of my body.
It was really beautiful.
I think sadly died from the fires that were happening, like, around there.
Oh, man.
But, yeah, it scared the shit out of me.
But I didn't scream or anything.
I just sort of looked at it and was like,
it's got to be Dempsey.
And I just left it there.
And then...
So I got a lot of flack from the fan base.
I didn't...
They were like,
they're going to think you killed that owl.
I found it.
It was beautiful.
It was a beautiful barn owl.
And I'm a big bird fanatic.
I knew what it was.
And it had died from the fires
like Mickey said and so I thought
I'd prop it up on the sink with the
feathers out so when they walked in
they'd be like, what? You know, at three
in the morning there's a big owl
propped up. But we
ended up burying it later in respect.
We gave it a grade. Why did your fan base give you shit?
Because they're like
man, they thought I was disrespecting the owl.
And I'm like, no.
I mean, the owl died anyway.
Hold on.
Did you take a picture?
How did they know?
There's pictures.
Oh, wow.
Several pictures.
Come on, Debs.
You definitely were like on your Instagram or something like,
the dead owl.
We'll put it on the bus.
Making a fucking talk show
out of the dead owl. You know, PETA's gonna be
watching your ass. I was just waiting for the next guy
to go in the bathroom.
Yelp. Dude, scream.
It was a loud fucking scream.
It was a big owl?
Yeah, dude, and the wings were out.
I mean,
dude, I was scared.
Dead birds are famous for carrying disease.
I mean, are you worried about the CDC?
The COVID police would not like that.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
When was this?
Was it January?
No, it was 2020.
Patient zero over here.
Dempsey over here.
Patient zero.
Woo hand my ass.
Woo hand.
It's the first carrier.
It was the fires.
We were literally following the fires
as we were traveling down California.
Yeah, the birds were falling out of the sky.
It was the smoke.
I love animals, and I didn't mean to disrespect.
We buried it.
To the fans, let me let you know.
I have to believe that the owl probably wanted that. You you just gotta believe one last ride let's go i'll clap it i'll
clap it up oh boys i got i got a couple more questions how what's it like uh not being able
to tour with brooke it's been uh you know it's been interesting obviously not having someone
we've been uh with for our
whole career yeah but adrian really stepped up to the plate and did a great job filling in and
learning uh the songs really quickly and uh professionally so it was um it's been nice to
kind of get out and play we just haven't been playing a lot in the last year so
what's fucking awesome yeah on the road for sure you know and it playing a lot in the last year. So it's fucking awesome. Yeah. On the road for sure.
You know,
and it's like,
um,
it's,
it's kind of,
it's gotta be hard.
You know,
it's like we,
I don't have to deal with kind of,
we kind of have to deal with that with Floyd.
Um,
cause Floyd just shows up whenever he fucking wants to.
And he's like,
I forgot I had to coach my hockey team.
So I got to leave.
I'm like,
what?
We're halfway in this tour,
Floyd. That's why I saw him. He's like, what? We're halfway in this tour, Floyd.
That's why I saw him. He's like, yeah, we're going on a vacation or something.
Family vacay. You gotta do it.
Not too many babysitters on the island of Nantucket. We come to find out.
It's just a pleasure in my
life to hang out with you guys. I'm just honored.
And after I saw that
picture of Adrian's dick.
Did you see that thing yet? Have you seen that thing yet?
I thought. Holy shit.
I'm going to post it up.
Bo, put up that picture.
It's a big flex.
Whoa, you see that thing? Holy shit!
Right! Fucking hog leg!
Jesus Christ!
Adrian, save some pussy for the rest of us.
Tripod.
Tripod.
Over here, Sean and Adrian.
Let's go.
Let's go.
So what is the ritual?
Like when you get off tour, boys, what do you do?
Do you guys not talk to each other for a couple days?
Yeah, basically, we don't really talk too much on those first few days.
Everybody's home life, I suppose, is different.
Yeah. What about you, Gov? The funniest thing life, I suppose, is different. Yeah.
What about you, Gov?
The funniest thing, too, though,
is that all of our leaders are like,
let's all get together and hang out.
And we're all like...
Nah, fuck that.
I just heard Dempsey talk about aliens
till 6 a.m. for seven days straight.
Does the group chat die?
Yeah, it dies.
Ryan will send TikToks into the group chat die? Yeah, it dies. Yeah, our group chat is...
Ryan will send TikToks into the group for the next few weeks.
Yeah.
It's a fully-warmed backup.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I got other shit to do, okay?
Well, guys, I did...
He calls me like four times or two in the morning.
He's like, why are you picking up?
I'm like, dude, I have kids.
I was like, I went to bed at 10 o'clock.
I have this other fucking life, Dempsey.
Yeah, yeah, you can't ever get a hold of Mahali.
Like, you know,
he and I lived in a room together.
We used to be best friends and like now I feel like,
oh, he's got family now.
Oh, here it is.
I'm not important enough to pick up my fucking phone call.
Wow, tension.
Here's the dirt.
Tension.
But I do,
something to say though,
when you come off tour,
I'm not looking forward to this,
is the switch around
of the schedule.
Yeah.
With,
I'll stay up staring at the wall
and Alex is like,
just sleep,
just close your eyes.
I'm like, yes.
Two weeks,
I've been going to bed
at four in the morning.
You have no idea,
like I have to be up
till six in the morning
and I wake up at three.
So usually I take some acid and
just...
20 hours of
hardcore staying up until I force
myself to sleep at the right end. What about you,
Gov? What do you do? You made a sleep record.
Well, I was just going to say, you know, don't
feel too bad, Ryan, because I don't have a family and I'm still
not picking up your phone calls.
Shots fired. Shots phone calls shots fired shots are fired shots are fired over here in the twiddle frasco tour
i love you i love you i love you that's how it is too in our band we are our are we we keep it going
sometimes yeah but we don't talk like that during quarantine i need something
i think during quarantine we talked maybe three times.
Yeah.
At the beginning, it was like we had one Zoom call.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We had one Zoom meeting.
We're like, all right, we're done with this.
Well, we do 250 shows a year.
So when I had the first two months of quarantine, I was stoked to not see any of you guys.
I didn't play drums for two months.
I picked up another instrument and learned that instead. Cool. What didn't play drums for like two months.
I picked up another instrument and learned that instead.
Cool.
What'd you pick up?
Guitar.
Cool.
A guitar and sing.
I mean, I already play guitar,
but I honed in.
Yeah.
I kept calling.
I would call Sean.
I called Sean more than anybody
because I'm like,
hey, what are the chords
to that one song?
And he's like trying to show me
and it's like backwards on Zoom.
I'm like,
uh.
Wait, wait, wait.
It was upside down chords, man.
Yeah. What are you going to do?
You know, I want to get one more outside
source in here. Yo, let's get Dave up here.
Dave, get in here, bud. Get in here.
Dave, get in here.
The man, the treasurer, our guy,
Dave.
Don't worry, it's only my show, bud.
It's just...
There you go.
Sit down.
Dave, tell us, you watch everything.
You know, things we miss, you probably see more than we do.
What was the craziest thing you've seen these boys do live in action?
I saw Ryan bring the Nitrous Mafia on the bus last night.
Really?
Yes.
What?
In Philly?
Like, OG?
The hometown in Philly.
What?
Oh, Ryan,
why didn't you even say anything about that?
I don't know if I should say this on the podcast.
Oh, my God.
We're cutting that out of the podcast.
That's what I said.
You asked me.
Cut that out.
God damn it.
How do you...
I know someone from the Hells Angels, bro.
We do too, Dempsey.
We're not asking them for deals on nitrous.
No, I was trying to give them
a chance to make a lot more money
than they were making.
What a nice guy.
So you don't have to pay high prices.
But yeah, don't put that in me.
Yeah, you've said it all.
I don't want to mention anything else. But yeah, don't put that in me. Yeah, you've said it all. I don't want to get killed.
And I don't want to mention anything else.
Guys, I know we got to get off and do our sound check.
I just want to say thank you.
Thank you, buddy.
Adrian, I've fucked with your band with Kung Fu,
and I love you in this band.
You sound great in this band.
And I just want to say, let's clap it up one more time for Adrian.
Filling it.
Our guy.
Our guy.
Killing it.
I'm just... I'm really thankful for what's going on right now.
That was from the heart.
That was from the heart.
Adrian, tell us
about your first hot bag.
Oh, yeah.
Explain what the...
Tell everyone what a hot bag is.
You know what a hot bag is?
No, you gotta go.
You can't shit on the fucking bus.
You can't shit on a tour bus.
Oh, you shit in a bag?
So if you gotta go and things moving,
sometimes you gotta go.
You know, you gotta put a bag in the toilet
and then disperse of the bag.
Wow.
I woke up early one day and I was just like, you know, checking my Instagram in the front.
And all of a sudden, I'm not going to say whose name it was, but he rolls out of the bathroom and just spinning this hot bag.
Like it's a goddamn rodeo up in this bitch.
It's like another one bites the dust, boys.
So shout out to hot bags.
Whoever created that.
We found out about the hot bag on our first, yeah, it's a thing.
Well, Dave Matthews, didn't he like spray?
He did.
He sprayed the whole cruise.
He hopped back the whole cruise.
Well, you guys are fortunate.
We just like shit ourselves.
We got a big old van.
We got a van.
There's nowhere to go.
There's nowhere to go.
We're going out of here, brother.
Pull over now. We got a van. There's nowhere to go, brother. There's nowhere to go. We're going out of here, brother. Pull over now.
Oh, my God.
Remember that one time
with Brian Burkhart?
Never forget it.
Oh, my God.
Do you want to tell that story,
I don't know where the fuck we were,
but it was somewhere
on the West Coast.
Brian Burkhart,
love you, buddy, Arkansas.
And he had to shit so bad.
It was like, dude,
there's no exits coming up.
No exits coming up.
We pull over
and he had to brand down
by like a river or something. Of course, we all have our fucking phones out. We're like, yeah. there's no exits coming up. No exits coming up. We pull over, and he had to brand down by a river or something.
Of course, we all have our fucking phones out.
We're like, yeah.
He said, fuck you guys.
And then seriously, get back in the van, go over the next hill,
and there's the Mecca Travel Center.
There's nothing, dude.
Almost made it, man.
Nothing for miles, man.
You probably still stopped so you could clean up the residue.
Of course, oh yeah.
We didn't clean it all good, don't we?
Wow. Wow. What a podcast hot bags from owls from dead owls to hot bags and beyond what a ride our tour with twiddle what a ride and i don't think this should be the last time we do this
right mahali boys promise it will be we're're going to do... Oh, really?
Dempsey, kiss me like a man on this podcast.
Come here.
This is the fifth one.
Let's go!
See, Floyd, you watching this, bitch?
You ain't kissing me in front of thousands of people.
Floyd will be jealous.
Floyd will be jealous.
Guys, thank you so much.
Let's go finish up this tour.
I fucking love you.
Go listen to Gump's sleep record.
Boys, this has been such a fucking ride.
Mickey.
Fuck yeah.
I feel like we've gotten closer through this ride.
Dempsey, you're the man.
Adrian, keep slinging that big old dick, baby.
Only you two know about the pillow.
Yeah.
All right, we're done.
We're done.
This is getting real gross.
Guys, I love you.
You guys have a great trip to Charleston.
Charleston.
You boys, we're going to Oklahoma.
18-hour drive.
We'll see each other in Vermont.
Guys, enjoy it.
We got John Craigie, my other boyfriend.
I got all my boyfriends on the podcast today.
We love you.
Hey, who wants to do a motivational speech?
Mickey, you want to give them some love for the people here?
What do you got for them?
To make them have a great week this week.
What do you got?
Always move forward.
Never backwards.
Wow.
Okay, cool.
I love it.
All right.
I didn't have to play the fucking Rocky music.
That was a straight forward.
Always forward. Always forward.
Always forward.
Sometimes sideways, diagonals, okay.
Backwards, never good.
Well, thank God.
I love you guys.
Let's go fucking rock.
Let's do it.
Richmond, Virginia.
Bye, guys.
We'll see you tomorrow or next week.
I don't know who's on the show, but we'll figure it out.
Bye.
Nice.
Thanks.
Bye.
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All right, all right. We're done.
I love you.
Thank you, Repsy, for sponsoring the podcast.
John Craigie is back in Denver.
His cameras are nice, man.
Thanks.
Yeah.
We're live.
Balance. Oh, sorry.
What's up, Craigie? It's good, man. How you doing? Good, nice. Thanks. We're live. What's up, Craigie?
It's good, man.
How you doing?
Good, good. Denver, snow.
Yeah, you're not a fan of snow, huh?
Theoretically, yes.
I think it's really cool.
But when I'm in it in the city, I hate it.
I'm out in nature and woods and all this stuff.
I love it.
What about during traveling?
You're a one man traveling circus.
You have to drive your own
rental car and shit. It seems like
it's a lot of work. Yeah.
I was telling you, I did Ace yesterday
and Ace is like everything bad.
You know.
Like I was telling you, you get
there and when you leave baggage
claim, all the normal ones
hurts. Budget, they're all, shuttles are waiting for you.
And then it's like, oh, you're ace.
Go fuck yourself, man.
Go walk.
You got to walk a long time.
You got to call them up like they're your dad.
Come pick me up.
Yeah, I will be there.
And then I get there and she's like we have a Nissan
Ionix or something
I was like what year was that
what country is that from
when did they make a Nissan Ionix
it's something strange man
when you rent cars it's always the same thing
it's either Chevy Cobalt, Nissan Versa
or
whatever with a Ford
it's always the same three cars
so what what's it like just traveling by yourself and doing these whatever with a Ford one. It's always the same three cars.
Anyway.
What's it like just traveling by yourself and doing this by yourself?
Because you said you like it.
I've also talked to you when you're in Hawaii.
Sometimes it's pretty lonesome and stuff.
Give me
the ups and downs of doing this
by yourself.
I'm starting to
not do it all by myself anymore because it does, yeah,
I think the lonesomeness was less so in the early days when it was like couch sleeping,
you know, when you'd play like a show to 10 people, weirdly, it was less lonely because
you'd be in the same room with those, you'd be in a coffee shop with those people.
You're like hanging out with them before the show you're hanging out with them after the show
you go out after the show you know to the bars with all those 10 people you probably stay at the
apartment of five of those people you're surrounded by your your fans and your friends the whole time
and then you hit a certain point where like that's just not how it goes anymore you know you're at
you i play bluebird or whatever You're backstage the whole time.
You're not commingling.
Now I'm not going to the merch table anymore.
So, and then I'm getting a hotel.
Especially, and I think COVID especially like, you know,
ramped that loneliness up for all those reasons.
People weren't as, you weren't supposed to hang or you couldn't hang.
So I got a TM now that I'm starting to use more,
basically anything more than like a week long, he's coming.
What about on this run?
No, because this is just like one day Colorado, two days Idaho, two days Utah.
So it didn't make sense.
You're flying to each one?
Nice.
But next month, I'll go to the East Coast for like three weeks.
He's coming.
I got a merch person, my dear friend Morgan.
She's awesome.
And then my bass player Aviva
they're all just good friends
and I'm like
starting to
like
have
and my friend Gregory
kind of told me that
Isaacov
you know he was saying how
he really likes having his crew
because you just have people
to hang out with
like Hardsworth or whatever
so
in a way like
your stories are
a part of your show
yeah
so like how
how hard is it to have a band?
When you're by yourself and you could...
I'm less insecure when I'm by myself working shit out.
But when I have a band behind me,
it's got to be harder or you feel more insecure.
Like, oh, they're hearing the same stories
or they're playing the same songs.
What's the difference?
Yeah, I think that's another trait I look for in hiring someone is like,
can they hang with that?
Right.
And I think my biggest issue with a band is just not knowing exactly what my,
if my crowd needs that or not,
you know,
that's just something that's important in this business is like,
you get to know your audience and then you get to know like what it is that
they like about your show.
And hopefully it's the same thing that you like, you it's got to be a compatible marriage and it's like
sometimes people you know maybe your go ta or whatever and everyone just wants to hear that
song yeah and maybe you don't want to play that song uh i'm trying to think of other bands that
like well there's there's stories i've heard of bands who like don't like their fan base you know
their family just kind of annoys them to a certain extent.
Well, the Dave Matthews thing.
I'm not going to say nothing bad about Dave,
but I have heard that there is such a stigma around the Dave bro fan base
that I think even he maybe is like, eh.
Yeah, it's true.
Yeah.
Anyway, but to put it like more simply is like
i don't it seems to me that they just want to hear the songs and hear the stories and they
don't really care if i have a big band or a small band or no man so with that it's like all right
is the band there for me that's fine they don't seem to mind it. But to what extent?
And it's obviously more expensive.
There's just so many more factors when you're not by yourself.
But it's at the point now where no TM is getting tricky.
Yeah.
Because like I said, in the old days, you're in the coffee shop,
and if you need to go on stage or stage to the corner of the room,
you walk up there and put your thing.
But you can't do that when you're at Uberber you gotta have somebody you know or just little things like
that or just someone's got to walk out and grab your your water or your check or so that is
different and i like my buddy joe has been great with that and um but anyway yeah i think that's a
tricky thing band or no band you i mean you bring up a good point. Like, what are we doing this for?
Ourselves or for the people?
Yeah.
You know, so, like, we try to take away our personal loneliness
so our fans could have the best show they could have.
But sometimes it probably kills you a little bit, you know,
when you're fucking sitting, you fucking sitting 3,000 miles away,
sitting at a honeymoon resort,
and you're sitting on the chair by yourself.
Like, okay, well, I'm getting suntan,
and I'm not the type of dude who's just going to go to the bar
and meet someone.
You've got to be in your head about that a lot.
Yeah, when we were just talking, whatever that was,
like a week ago.
A week ago when you were in Hawaii.
I was at the Sheraton in Kauai.
The Coconut Sheraton or whatever.
It's a very romantic place.
It feels like a honeymoon spot.
Oh, it was like full on.
And they told me, you know, that's where I was playing.
I actually wasn't staying there.
I was staying with some friends, but I was like there all day.
And they were so nice.
They were like, yeah, do whatever you want.
Pool.
So I was poolside and I'm in the pool by myself.
You know, everyone else is like doing watsu, you know, like with their lover.
Like, you know, it was definitely weird.
Does that make you more lonely when you see all that stuff around you?
Sure.
Yeah.
But, you know, it's not that big.
It's not the biggest concern. It's just sort of like the base.
What is the concern?
I guess every, you know, maybe larger things, the larger questions,
just always the, what am I doing with it all? What, you know,
and then the passing of like,
I trip out a lot on the movement of time
and the quickness of it.
And obviously as like a career musician,
it's really good to throw your all into it
and you're doing all these good shows
and everything's moving forward.
But then, yeah, it's that question of like,
am I giving myself enough?
Am I doing enough for myself?
But because in the beginning, when you're just starting out,
then that's the dream, right?
It's like then it's almost more for you than the people, right?
And the people kind of know that.
When you're playing to the 10 people at the coffee shop,
they're there because they like it,
but they're also there because to support you.
And maybe you're doing patreons or
kickstarters or whatever and everyone's like i'm rooting for john to like to get up go there but at
some point that flips and everyone is kind of like oh he's got it and i'm just a fan and it doesn't
like he doesn't care if i come to his show or not and yeah in some ways that's kind of cooler i guess
maybe it's like a weird like that's a weird psychology of
you know he doesn't need me so i actually want to go more or whatever i don't know that's not my
area of expertise but that flip is interesting because then all of a sudden
you're there for you're there for them you know which is cool yeah and you are living the dream
but has it changed you know And not for me necessarily
because it still feels like that combination,
but you can definitely get lost in it,
especially when everything kind of works out.
I was thinking about this recently.
I used to go on tour
and have no idea what was going to happen each night.
I'm going to Charlotte or whatever,
playing a place,
but there's no ticket sales
or there's no pre-sale. So it's like, it could be zero people. It could be sold out. I'll
have, I have no idea until it's happening. Now, you know, I got Phil emailing me ticket sales
every week. So now it's like, I know kind of how it's going to go down. Do you like it better that
way? Uh, yes. I mean, it definitely is less stressful and it's way more efficient. It's
way more professional, but I was just thinking about that. Like there was something
really interesting to that and it kept me more on my toes and definitely was like,
you definitely weren't going to get bored by it, you know, but you definitely had like those,
I don't have those crushing lows like I used to have back then. You know what I'm talking about?
Like a night where you've done, you did everything. You like sent out the posters, you,
whatever, all the stuff,
all the radio promo, and then nobody comes.
I haven't had one of those in so long, which is great.
But I don't know.
There's something to that.
But that's when you're in your head and you're like,
oh, I'm on my journey, man.
When everything is selling out and everything's really good,
then you start to, I don't know, you just start to
really, maybe you feel like it's not your journey.
Also, too, when your team is building,
when you got your Phil and your Thomas, your booking agent,
all these great people who work for me,
it's everyone's journey.
Yeah, and that's the existential crisis I get.
We're path-goers.
When we see our dream,
how do we keep
going without feeling
like, all right, I'm here.
Now I should just do something else.
How do we change our minds to saying,
all right, I've always wanted to sell out shows.
We're selling out shows now.
How do you
level up in the dream?
Exactly, because eventually it just becomes
a nice, efficient job,
which is really good.
Yeah.
But that's not us.
It's not us.
We're not,
we're not,
we don't like standing still.
Yeah.
And that's why we got into this game to not do that.
Right.
We weren't,
we didn't want to be bankers or lawyers or whatever.
Now I think it's kind of cool with music because it is always,
it could change any day now.
You know what I mean?
It could,
uh,
tomorrow that's, it still is that way. Right. I say, okay, it could change any day now. You know what I mean? It could tomorrow.
It still is that way, right?
I say, okay, we're going to go play in Boulder, whatever.
Still no one may come.
Now I kind of know as it's happening.
But there was a show recently,
maybe a couple of years ago in like Birmingham
where the tickets just weren't selling.
And it was funny.
It was really stressing me out.
And I almost, I told Phil, I was like, let's just cancel it. And he was like, no, man, just weren't selling. Yeah. And it was funny. It was really stressing me out. Yeah.
And I, I almost,
I told Phil,
I was like,
let's just cancel it.
And he was like,
no man,
just do the show.
And I,
but for some reason I was like,
I can't do it.
And then I was like,
wait,
I did that all the time.
And you know,
it wasn't,
I had,
I had played Birmingham once,
so it wasn't a big ego blow,
but people came,
it was fine.
Yeah.
But I was freaking out,
man.
I was calling the venue.
I was like,
can we like shrink the room?
Can we like put up some like, some like can we take out the chairs
you know things like that and everyone was like
what are you tripping on bro but I think it was
an ego thing of me afraid
to go back to that
and it's always about you know it's like
you
want to build
your environment so like
you don't want to tell stories
where it feels like you're in a
fucking gym hall
where it's too big for
the environment. Todd Glass
talks about that all the time about me.
He's like, he sets it up.
If the room's
big and you're only half capacity, yeah,
put curtains around it to build environments.
You're not wrong about that.
No,
no,
no,
no.
And there's,
that's a whole psychology of obviously,
you know,
playing to,
to like 40 people in a 40 person room that shows going to be way better than
playing to,
you know,
500 people in a 2000 person.
Like it's not about how many people are there.
It's how many,
it's like,
it's how packed is the place.
Right.
That's why I always tell newcomers,
you know, if I, if I was going to give a TED Talk or something,
or if I was like, if anyone asked me.
Oh, I'm asking you.
Yeah, this was my sort.
At some point, I realized this philosophy,
which I would call sell out the closet, okay?
And what I mean by that is like,
I used to just play wherever, right?
I used to be like, I want to play Catalyst Santa Cruz
or something like that. I'd play Santa, Catalyst would let me play there, I want to play Catalyst Santa Cruz or something like that.
I'd play Santa,
Catalyst would let me play there
and then 30 people would come
and it would feel stupid, you know?
Right.
I realized that the people don't care
what room it is.
They just,
they care about how full it feels.
So I would say like,
okay,
if I have two fans
in,
you know,
in like
Minneapolis or whatever,
find a room that's like, play a closet, you know?
And sell that, and it sells out, right?
And then everyone, oh, sold out Minneapolis, cool.
Again, and that's my old bit, like nobody gives a shit.
And so that's what I would do.
I would realize, sort of get an idea of what my fan base was,
find the smallest room possible, play it,
and then as soon as you, then you slowly build out of that.
And that was way more,
and especially,
and again,
it is kind of a comedian thing, right?
Yeah.
You know,
if you went to go see like Leo Kotke or like someone instrumental,
you wouldn't care so much if the room,
it still feels a little weird.
But when you're trying to talk to people,
once you talk to people,
you're like acknowledging the moment
that we're all in, right?
So you're being like,
hey, we're all here right now.
And that's when people start to be like, oh, this is awkward.
Or any humor whatsoever, you know?
You ever have to do like a corporate gig?
And you have to like talk and do your show?
One time I played for the North Face corporate, what do you call it?
Like what's the corporate retreat, you know?
Which was like, it's a story i tell on
stage i'll be i won't give you the whole bit but basically two guys on the north face like um
board i think were fans right and the way i see it is they had their meeting because
these corporate retreats they usually hire like like b-52s or elton john or like you know they
hire like something that's i know those are different kind of acts,
but they hire like a name everyone knows,
whether or not they're like old school or whatever.
They usually don't hire like an up and coming Indian artist.
So my theory was that they were at the thing
and they were like, we need a band for this.
And those two people were like, we should get John Craigie.
And everyone else was like, okay,
I guess we're just not hip enough, whatever.
Let's get the guy.
So they called me, I guess we're just not hip enough, whatever. Let's get the guy. So they called me.
I had no feel back then. So they
offered me, at that time, more money
than I'd ever been paid, which if I told you, it's a
pretty sad
thing. But I was like, oh my
God. It was going to pay off a lot of
different little credit card debts I had and stuff.
And I said, yes, no negotiation.
And
they were stoked on that
because I'm sure what they would normally pay.
Anyway, it was at North Star Tahoe Resorts.
Anyway, so I go to this thing
and it was hilarious because they were outside.
This was in like the spring or whatever.
They were outside in one of the bowls or whatever.
Huge crowd.
The CEO was out there giving a really cheesy corporate talk of like,
these sleeping bags are, you know, like whatever.
He's just like, they're talking all corporate stuff.
But then he starts doing this thing where he's like, you know what?
REI is having their retreat in some stuffy hotel in St. Louis.
We're at Tahoe, baby.
And everyone cheers.
It's like that scene with Leonardo DiCaprio, Wolf of Wall Street. I'm not leaving.
Yes, yes, yes.
I'm not leaving.
He's like, Patagonia's in Salt Lake, you know, at the Marriott. We're in Tahoe, yeah. And then
he says something like, and we got John Craig. And it was like, the two guys start clapping.
And I'll never forget, he looked at me and he was like, with a shrug, you know.
So I walk out there, you know, and I'm like, how's it going, guys?
And so I'm doing my thing.
It's going okay.
Were they quiet or were they loud?
They were quiet.
I mean, I kept it real short.
But I had written all these like bits about tents and stuff, you know,
and like, you know, hiking, thinking nothing was hitting.
So I thought about what he had been doing about talking shit on the other thing.
So I was just like, L.L. Bean, more like smell L.L. Bean, right?
And everyone was like, yeah, fuck those guys.
So my whole bit was just like trashing.
Yeah, rip it up, dude.
Yeah, just talking about REI, how they can't fucking sell a fucking jacket or something.
Anyway, I did four songs probably. You got the Anyway I did four songs probably Well shout out to Craig
Make that money Craig
Pay those bills dog
Anyway that's the only time I've ever done a
Corporate party I believe
You know so you talk about like
Okay the journey
It used to get you excited when you felt like
There was a mystery of not having people there.
And then you switch.
Your mind switches.
Hey, I'm a professional.
I sell out places now.
How do you get your mind to stop thinking future Craigie and start thinking,
Oh, yeah.
This is what I was born to do is to like be a journeyman
and have shitty shows and have good shows
and fight through the shitty shows
to make it the best show possible.
Like, is there a way to trick your brain?
Is just like we get more popular
and it's just like, there's going to be duds.
Yeah, I think the main thing for me is like,
well, one, now I have to sort of focus on the fact
that now I have this thing that I've always wanted.
So what I get excited about now is being able to craft a good show,
craft good bits, craft good flow,
which, again, I couldn't do back then
because if I'm going, I'm on my way to Charlotte
and I don't know if anyone's going to be there,
then I don't know if I can even do this bit or not.
Now, if I'm rolling into a show and I know it's going to be sold out
and I know it's this town,
I know I can talk about this thing, you know what I mean? Like, I remember this is such a silly
thing, but this would have been like 2006 or something, you know, in the Bush times,
George Bush, W. And Rumsfeld retired or something, or I think Bush fired him or something
anyway
that day I'm listening to NPR that happened
it was really hot in the liberal thing
and I wrote like a song in the van
outside just so happened
in this town you know Milwaukee
or whatever the crowd was packed
and I did the song and it worked
everything was great you know
and I was like
yeah man this is awesome dude I'm so topical I'm like I'm gonna do this for the next four weeks you
know but the next town I go to it's like nobody was there yeah and so I didn't do it you know
the next town I went to there was like three people there and so anyway you know jump forward
to then 2016 Trump gets elected you know and i write this song that night about presidential
my fucking favorite song thank you thank you god damn it thank you so much and so far yeah and that
was at the point of my career where every show had people and so that was like i got to play that
every night and it worked you know and so now i can get excited about that kind of stuff because I have a job.
That like makes sense.
And so I think it's probably similar to being single versus being in a
relationship.
You know,
when you're single,
you can get excited about,
I'm going to that bar tonight.
Maybe I'll meet soulmate.
Maybe I won't.
Whereas like,
then you have a lover and you can be like,
okay,
cool.
Now I have some,
maybe that,
okay,
we're going to next week,
we're going to go to Jamaica and then we're going to,
you know,
meet the parents and stuff like that.
So it's probably something like that.
I don't know because it's been a long time since I've been going to Jamaica or meeting some parents.
But, I mean, I think that that's part of it.
It's just, but yeah, you have to sort of redefine the narrative because we get excited about these underdog things.
We get excited about, I'm Woody Guthrie.
I'm sleeping, you'm sleeping on trains.
But I don't know.
It's important to do that.
How do you get excited from, you know,
I feel like that's the reason why we love to travel.
We're people of travel.
I remember when we were talking during the quarantine
and we were both kind of fucking bummed out
because we had to stay in one town for yeah fucking two years yeah like so like when your mind state goes to all right i'm
i'm still this woody guthrie in my head i'm still this guy who's traveling and doing and
being a wordsmith but now that we're getting more popular i just how do we not lose that fire of that we had
when we were younger you know like yeah i think about like your live records and i versus your
your studio records and like what do you like doing more you know like is it harder to like
i feel like you being impromptu and you building a whole show is so important to what Craigie is that when you're making an album, do you feel like you have to make an album?
Or do you want to?
I like them both.
I think the live ones to me are the most authentic and real.
They're more stressful because I don't have as much control.
So, for example, it's like I might do a bit and it gets like the
perfect response but i didn't record it you know so then i because i can't record every show i'm
not the dead or whatever you know so i'm not the dead i'm not the dead you know i'd like to have a
guy sitting there with the tape machine and shit but that's not how it goes so anyway but um so
then i'm like okay let's record these five shows let's make a live album that's cool but maybe
they don't maybe like the bit didn't get the reaction that it got
that one time.
That gets in my head, but whatever.
So that part stresses me out a little bit
because you kind of just have that one shot
and you don't have any control over the crowd.
You know, yeah.
But anyway, the studio album,
I like making because I like studio.
I like my heroes, you know, did it.
And Neil Young and and all
those guys like I love both kind of things and same thing with like Dylan or Joni or whatever
so but the studio albums they don't feel as authentic because I almost feel like those are
like I'm a conductor and I have this vision and so I put my little part on there. But to me, the studio albums
are all about the other guys
and other women that are on there.
That's what really, I think,
makes it interesting to me.
But people seem to like both.
I like making records.
What stresses you out more
when you're in the process
of making a live record
versus making a studio record?
I'll tell you this.
In the studio with the musicians is really fun.
Mixing that is hell for me.
On stage when I know it's being recorded is stressful.
But mixing that is really fun for me because it's like,
ah, turn this up, turn this down, we're good.
There's not as much thing.
So I think in the moment, I have a lot of fun.
You know, relatively.
It's a little stressful when you only have five days
and everything's on the clock
and time is money
and shit like that
yeah
the way I do records usually
is I have a bunch of friends together
and so they're having fun
you know
which makes us happy
but
sometimes they're having too much fun
yeah but they're
they're not paying for it
no no
they're getting paid
yeah exactly
so they're like
hey let's just keep doing this
let's just live here
yeah we got another 11 days
in this don't we
like no we don't let's get this doing this, guys. Let's just live here. Yeah, we got another 11 days in this, don't we? Like, no, we don't.
Let's get this fucking thing done.
Yeah, yeah.
What stresses you about mixing your records?
I mean, we were talking when you were mixing your record,
and I felt like, you know, like, I love giving notes and stuff,
but, like, you were really focused and hypercritical about the mixing.
I'm like, damn, Craigie is a perfectionist. Sorry you had to see that. hypercritical about the mixing. I'm like,
damn,
Craig is a perfectionist.
Sorry.
You had to see that.
I love it.
No,
that's me too,
man.
Well,
I appreciate your,
your help on that because that's coming out in April.
And you know,
I'm,
it was people like you that really helped me get through that part.
I think it's just,
there's,
I'll tell you this.
And I think I said,
I might've told you this,
but when you make a record,
it's really fucked up because you are mixing it for yourself, right?
You're deciding what's best, right?
And you are not the demographic.
I'm never going to listen to this thing, right?
I'm not going to.
Nothing against my own music, but that's ridiculous.
You ever meet someone who's cranking their own shit?
It's like, dude.
Chill, chill, chill.
Yeah, yeah.
I'll be hanging with a woman and she's like cranking their own shit, you know? It's like, dude, that fucking, chill, chill, chill, chill. Yeah, yeah. I'll be like hanging with a woman and she's like,
oh,
I used to take this musician,
he would just roll around listening to his own shit.
I'm like,
oh,
get out of here.
Get out of here as quickly as possible.
Yeah.
I mean,
we have like,
so anyway,
I'm mixing it to my likes,
which is,
you know,
fucking stupid.
I'm not going to listen to it,
you know?
So I might be like,
I think the drums are too loud,
but who cares what I think,
man.
So do my listeners,
you know,
in an ideal world,
maybe if I get to it,
this would be kind of a fun,
radical thing.
You just get like,
like a focus group of like 12 of your fans,
you know,
to listen to the record and they mix it.
Cause I don't give a fuck,
you know?
That's a great idea.
Yes.
Can we do that?
That is like,
kind of like how they do that in LA where people watch a TV show to see if it
makes NBC or something.
Yeah.
What do you call that?
Oh,
focus group.
Focus group.
Yeah.
Okay.
I used to get paid like 150 bucks to like check out toothpaste and shit.
Nice.
I loved it.
That was the best thing about LA.
You could do all those weird things.
Like you go watch some like soap opera and make some money.
That's a great idea,
Craigie.
That's what I idea, Craigie.
That's what I want to do because I,
that's why I stress because I'll be like,
first of all, there's too many things, right? There's too many knobs.
There's too much you can do to something.
Should the bass be louder?
More of this, more of that.
And I don't know what is right.
And again, I also like, it's not for me.
You know what I mean?
It's not your world.
And people don't realize that.
I think we think like
and sure like someone you know
like Dark Side of the Moon
or Graceland or these albums that are amazing
were made
by amazing musicians and stuff and I don't know
you know who was engineering back then
I don't know what the deal was but
it's like we obviously give credit we're like
thank God for Paul Simon's genius
to make us Graceland and stuff.
But it is, we like it.
Who knows if he likes it?
You know what I mean?
You know, people always say like,
oh, this music's for me.
This music's, like the musicians,
like I make, this is for me.
But really, it's for them.
Yes, yes, for sure.
Like your point about like,
I'm not going to listen to my records
right when it's done. I'm not listening to that motherfucker again. Never again, never again. I'm not going to listen to my records right when it's done.
I'm not listening to that motherfucker again.
Never again.
I'm going on to the next thing.
Yes, yes.
Only a psychopath is doing that.
It's like, hey, oh God, like 2018, I was fucking on fire.
It's just so crazy.
So maybe it is.
We have to put less pressure on ourselves to like think like we need
to like it yeah we just gotta like trust her gut like i've been doing this like how do you evolve
you know like how do you get out of the rut of just like just doing stuff because you know that
the machine or the fans are gonna like that type of song like how do we keep evolving as musicians, you think, or songwriters?
Yeah, I think about that all the time.
I don't want to stay stagnant.
I don't want to put out the same record 12 times.
I think what makes it fun for me, for my live records,
I think I will put out 12 of the same ones.
I don't give a shit.
Yeah, you don't care.
Just because I think that that's what, right?
I mean, you don't want a Chris Rock record to,
you're just like, yeah, just have new shit.
Yeah.
This was the first record I've heard of yours
that was very experimental.
Yeah.
And I felt like the mix was more spread out
and you're really thinking about the whole thing as a whole.
Yeah.
Tell me about the process.
Well, I think, so for me, here's how I stay not stagnant.
I think of albums like thematically.
So I say like, okay, because what I've learned, if you're, if you're a band, so let's say
you're whatever, Green Sky, you know, like you have a sound, right?
And people like your sound.
So you, so when Green Sky's in the the studio they at least have to have that conversation are we going to stick to
our sound or are we going to deviate right and if we deviate everyone's going to talk about how we
deviated from our sound or whatever um i should have i should have picked on someone not modern
but i like those guys and so i think if you're a songwriter you don't really have a sound no one
gives a shit right there you know so if you're neil young if you're um arlo guthr think if you're a songwriter, you don't really have a sound. No one gives a shit, right?
Right.
So if you're Neil Young, if you're Arlo Guthrie, if you're Bon Iver,
people kind of just, or John Prine, people just like you and your songs. And they're like, do whatever, paint it however you want.
And so I like that freedom, right?
Yeah.
There's no Craigie sound anyone's asking for.
Yeah.
Is there a Craigie live show everyone's asking for yeah i
think so that's what we're talking about before i think it's just telling stories playing playing
songs they like and if you're like a band is maybe nobody ever says yes i have a band and no one's
ever said i didn't like you having a band so i don't know if it's a fuck exactly um so anyway
but so when i make a record i'm like okay what's the theme on this one what's the vibe
are we gonna try to are we like going for uh this like 60s dylan's you know 70s the band sound which
is probably like my favorite sound are we gonna go for like with asterisk you know like this bill
withers kind of like um jj kale kind of groove thing right um with this one i had been like listening to a
lot of chill beats listening to a lot of um like meditative music because it was locked down and i
was like trying to just fucking zen yeah and all the songs i had been written that had been written
during that time were very sad meditative and like it didn't make sense to bring in a band
and go that fun route.
Yeah, that side project you do with Nico
is kind of that same vibe.
You're probably writing both records at the same time, right?
Yeah, exactly.
And Nico helped me.
He taught me a lot about that world.
What did he teach you?
I think he's really into logic,
which I don't have,
and by logic, I mean a program.
I don't have logic. I I don't have, but, and by logic, I mean a program, you know, I don't have logic.
I also don't have any logic.
So Nico, if they don't, if the listeners don't know Nico,
who plays with Shook Twins,
also one of my best friends and amazing musician on his own,
Cyber Camel, it's his project.
He taught me about, you know,
looping a lot of like ambient stuff through those programs.
And so when I made the demos for
this record, Mermaid Salt,
is what it's called.
Yeah, thank you.
He was like,
he helped me.
So then I made him on GarageBand.
I got the beats going.
I got the tempos down
and added things
so that when I sent him to Bart Budwig,
who was the engineer on the project and the other guys playing on the record,
I think immediately they knew where we were going with this.
And then that just kind of happened.
So we got into the studio and I thought maybe we'd play it live,
but then everything I was asking for, like these chopped up drum parts,
like more sampled stuff.
Bart was really good at that.
So the drummer would play a beat that I liked and then we'd cut it.
Which I'd never done before. This is the first time you've done track by track like that?
Yeah, exactly.
Everything was live before.
Everything was live before.
Oh my God, it does feel like a more electronical Craigie record.
Yeah, yeah.
It feels more constructed, I think.
What was the hardest part of changing your brain to think like this?
You know, honestly, it was weirdly easier because when you're playing live,
which I like doing, it's like, okay, let's do the song.
We're doing I Am California.
Play it live.
You got to get, everyone's got to get their take, right, at the same time.
So you might have had a great take,
but the drummer's like,
ah,
I missed that one symbol.
And again,
time is money.
You know,
you're not the Beatles like with six months in the studio,
you know what I mean?
So you're like,
shit,
man.
And so you keep doing it.
And sometimes you compromise.
And sometimes you say like,
that's the best it's going to be.
Let's move on guys.
Yeah.
With this one,
there was,
there's only one take,
right?
Because you're just like,
okay,
uh, Nevada, who was playing a lot of? Because you're just like, okay, Nevada, who was playing a lot of stuff,
and you're like, okay, Nevada, play this synth part.
And he's there, or whatever, or Cooper, play this drum part.
So you're building, which was kind of fun.
I'm not saying I would ever do it again,
because you lose a lot of that mojo, a lot of that- Charm.
Yeah, yeah. And honesty.
But for this one, I just really wanted to create
like almost like a little symphony or something.
Yeah, it sounds awesome.
Thank you.
And you only had three guys really playing?
Yeah.
I mean, I played a little bit,
but honestly it was mostly Justin Landis,
Cooper Trail, Nevada Sal,
and I was just there kind of conducting.
I sang and I was just there kind of conducting I sang and I would
I played a little guitar but I also
really liked the idea of
I would show the other guys what I played and have them play it
yeah play it better
yeah play it better and just like I'm at that point now too
where I think the next record I do
too I might have somebody else play guitar
I just think it's I'm always trying to
get out of that rut have something
everything feel different it's just kind of a thing for me. And you know, we'll see if that's
what the audience likes. Is it like, um, like diffusing the ego in a sense? There's that too,
but I also don't think I'm that good at the guitar. Yeah. I'm the same way with piano. I'm like,
it's about the words, about the rhythm. If I have ego, it ain't on my guitar playing.
Oh my God. What was the hardest song to make on the record you know um that's a good question i think the the last
track called percy is which um the hardest songs i'll say this were the ones that were the most
folky to me you know the ones that i that i had written that were really like standard John Strum, you know, and standard John,
you know,
campfire style.
Yeah.
Because then I had to break out of that.
Whereas there were songs on there that it was like,
I wrote them with the intention of this is going to be like,
you know,
cut up or this is going to be this,
but there's a song called Finn.
There's a song called Perseids that are just like,
those were songs that I was playing on,
on stage that I was,
that were fully also had a lot of chords.
You know,
I realized when you're doing this kind of like chill beats,
meditative stuff,
the less chords,
the better,
the less like difference between the chorus,
the better.
So something with like a bridge.
Oh fuck.
No,
you know,
like you're not listening to like Moby and there's a fucking bridge in there
and shit, you know?
Hell yeah.
Yeah.
So that was hard too.
How hard is it to write like topical?
Like topical music that will last.
Yeah.
Fuck, I don't know.
Like you said you're giving up on singing Presidential Silver Lining?
Well, I kind of retired it only because the thing about that is
he's not president anymore,
so it doesn't really make sense.
But I have to remember, too,
it's funny how Topical,
we could have a whole fucking podcast on Topical.
Let's talk about it,
because I'm very curious about making Topical content,
but also making Topical content in a way that lasts.
Yes.
So it doesn't feel like, oh, this is just part of the 2018.
You know what I'm saying?
Well, topical music is a really funny thing
because everyone in theory really likes it, right?
We cite Dylan and Pete Seeger,
and we're like, this is a really good thing to do.
But I feel like there was a time in that late 60s
or mid to late 60s where
it was really cool, times they are changing
even like really specific stuff
like Woody Guthrie stuff about
a certain worker strike
or like the dam on the
Columbia River, you do it now
and I think it can feel
very antiquated and cheesy
right, now if it's funny
that seems to work still you know
what i mean but so people like it in theory um but it goes really quick you know what i'm saying
right and so to go back to like that donna rumsfeld song i remember i was loving it so much
and i was milking the shit out of it and i remember being at a show and it was just like everyone's like we're done i had a song i remember when uh when obama got elected the first time i think yeah i wrote this
song that was like it was called you still got so much and it was this a funny song two republicans
saying like don't be sad even though we have obama like and i listed all these things i was like we still
have uh you know rush limbaugh you still have ann colter you still have fox news you still have
whatever nascar and yeah and like it got a laugh it was great and um it had this moment where it
was really funny and then i just remember again at some point people were kind of like it's been
too long it's not funny anymore yeah and that song didn't, I couldn't bring that back.
But songs like, I have a song about like the Leviticus,
the book of Leviticus.
You know that one?
You know that one?
Thank you.
That one, I felt, I retired it when the Supreme Court
did that ruling where gay marriage was legal.
I remember doing it.
It was a beautiful day.
I was playing in Sandpoint, Idaho.
And that was the day.
And I was like, this is the last time I'll ever do this song.
But people still like hearing that one.
Silver Lining, people have asked for it.
I still feel like it might be awkward.
It's hard to say, man.
I think topical stuff is really weird because we love the idea of it, right?
Obviously, if it matches our political feelings, we're like, yeah,
fuck those guys, you know?
But do we really want it, and how Obviously, if it matches our political feelings, we're like, yeah, fuck those guys. You know? But
do we really want it? And how do we want it?
And I think the funny thing is always good, right?
Humor diffuses.
And if you
roll in, you know,
Annie DeFranco style, who is
one of my heroes, but if you roll in
sometimes with that intensity, it can sort of
it can make things awkward,
which again, why I commend her with that kind of bravery.
I have done that before, but it doesn't work as well for me.
Humor, it sort of softens everybody up.
Has it ever gone wrong?
Like you ever played in the South and you're playing?
Yes, yes, yes.
It's very much gone wrong.
What happened?
Tell me the worst one.
Well, I think that, first of all, I love when it goes wrong
At this point now
Because if everything goes right for too long
You start sniffing your own shit
Yeah, yeah
And I tell Phil, I was like
Please forward me the mean emails, I want them
Because he thinks he wants to protect me or whatever
You know, Phil's my manager
I played Kerrville Folk Festival in Kerrville, Texas,
which is, you know, you would think it's near Austin.
And I had done, shoot, this was not that long ago,
a few years back, and I had written a song about AOC.
Yeah, I remember that with Handmaid's Tale.
Yes, Handmaid's Moments.
Yes, we love them.
Handmaid's Tale.
That's the complete opposite of what Handmaid's Moments is.id's Tale. That's the complete opposite
of what Handmaid's Tale is.
I'll tell Anna.
I think I was still doing
presidential silver lining.
Trump was still president.
I really was just laying it on thick.
I went to the
merch table afterwards
and a lot of people came up
and were just straight up.
It's funny.
This is a very common thing where they say, like, I really enjoyed.
Not that they all talk like this, but, you know, I really enjoyed your set until you started getting political.
I didn't like that.
You know, I find that the conservatives, not to generalize the group here, but liberals will be mad at a particular thing you said, right?
They'll say like, oh, well, you said this,
and I didn't like how you said this.
Conservatives who are at a folk show or any music show,
they will just be mad that you got political, you know?
And I think the reasoning is,
is because music is inherently liberal
unless it's like pop country or whatever.
And so if you're a conservative, yeah,
you want to listen to good musicce you want to listen to um you know uh well whatever like
somewhat like crosby stills nash and young or jackson brown someone who i think music that
seems very fun and tame right but then you go to the show and they say something that that is like
against your thing you're just mad that they they reminded you that you can't listen to all music.
Or all opinions.
Yeah, exactly.
And you don't want to listen to just Ted Nugent and Kid Rock.
Exactly.
So I think it's funny.
And I always try to politely remind them
that that's like what my genre is for.
It's like why people like folk music
is because Peter, Paul, and Mary
and Bob Dylan and Pete Seeger and stuff.
But I think it's like they want to hear songs
about like the March on Washington
or old school issues that are already done
and new stuff.
So when it goes, it's, I mean,
it's never gone so wrong,
but if I find more so at festivals,
you know, in this, just this past summer,
just doing bits about the vaccine in Idaho and in like in places like that.
Yeah. And people would, you could tell they just were like, yeah,
not here, bud. Yeah.
I got an email just recently where I played in Maui and it was a really chill
show. And I cuss on stage just cause that's how I talk.
Yeah. And this, I got an email, email, Phil forwarded, that was just like,
I loved your show, but you just casually dropped too many F-bombs and S-bombs.
And I thought it was really unprofessional.
And I thought, who's to say what is professional in my job, man?
You're coming to see my art.
Yeah, exactly.
It is funny to think of that you're on stage
and that this is the 20s
and there's some sort of code of how to act on stage.
That is not how music should be played.
Exactly.
I thought it was funny.
I mean, I don't write back anymore.
I don't mind.
Do you ever write mean but smart emails?
You know what I mean?
You know what?
Well, here's what happened recently.
And if this
person is listening i apologize i don't mean to to call this person out but i had a show in kawaii
that was proof of acts you know yeah which again that was the venue's call i'm not saying that i
think that's good or bad but i i think in hawaii there's less vaccinated people you know yeah
there's more uh people who don't want to do that um i got one i got a bunch
of dms of people saying i'm mad that you do this but one girl she wrote me and she said i'm really
upset that your show is proof of acts it's very exclusionary or exclusive or whatever uh she said
john prine wouldn't approve oh my god now what i wanted to do was send her the article of john
prine dying of covid yeah I didn't do that.
Fuck.
I don't want to laugh about that.
Rest in peace, John.
But like, that is, that's fun.
That's like, no email.
Just the link.
Just the article.
I think that's irony, right?
Is that irony?
That is irony.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
It's crazy.
I mean, like, as you're like developing as a songwriter and you do want to write about
topical stuff because you are developing as a songwriter and you do want to write about topical stuff
because you are a topical songwriter.
And I think, how do you approach writing something topical
without fucking just saying it straight?
Yeah, that's the tricky part.
I think that's the thing is just,
because I don't want to exclude people.
I don't want my crowd to be just liberals.
I love when a conservative is at my show.
I really do.
I want
everyone to get together because I do think
that actually we're not that
different, that we do all love each other.
And music has the power
to get everyone together.
I don't like politicians
in general because I do feel like
that they are dividing.
Which is, I get it.
That's how you get your votes, right? Right.
Whenever anyone gets up there and they're just like, we love each other.
Everyone's like, no, we, that's why Trump does so well because he's an asshole because
he's, he's so good at getting his side fired up, you know?
Right.
It's very, it's very like high school, you know, politics, but it works.
I think with music is like, that's what's great about music is that we're not running
for office and really we're trying to do the opposite and get everyone together.
So yeah, how do you write a song about this thing, about a school shooting or about abortion or about healthcare without immediately turning off half of your listeners. And so I think I have found that the humor works well because people, it disarms them a little bit.
They also think like, okay, we're having fun.
And when I had written that song,
like I said, after Obama got elected,
you still got so much.
A lot of Republicans were saying nice things to me about it
because even though I was making fun of them,
it was also could be seen as like a way of like,
hey, here's stuff you like,
you know?
Totally.
And I,
and I liked that.
And,
and so that's something that I,
I aim to do,
but I,
but oftentimes it makes me,
it makes it fall flat.
Like I was,
I was working on this song that,
uh,
basically it was like,
it was,
it was going to be called like,
are you a Christian who voted for Donald Trump?
And it was,
it was going to be this funny song about like,
please help me out.
Explain to me how that works.
And it was going to be like,
I understand why all the racists voted for him.
I understand why all the sexists voted for him.
I understand why all these people,
but I don't understand why you,
and I worked on it really hard,
but I couldn't make it funny, first of all.
I knew it was the kind of song that would make the liberals go crazy, but I don't make it funny. First of all, I had, I had, it was,
I knew it was the kind of song that would make the liberals, you know, go crazy, but I don't need to do that, you know? And so I just ended up,
I dropped it, you know? And, uh, but I still,
I have songs like that where I just couldn't get it because I,
what I don't need to do is just get up there and say, you know,
fuck Trump or like fuck people who, you know, I don't need to do that.
You said you're taking half
your fan base. Who knows? Maybe half your fan base
loves I Am California
or something.
It's got to be hard because like
I stopped playing Blame It On
the Pussy. Yes, yes.
We talked about this.
I felt like it was good for
the period.
It was just like a play on blaming on the boogie.
Yeah, yeah.
And now that we're approaching, we're evolving with our thoughts,
and it's hard to play stuff like that.
And you want to like, because I get all these emails too saying like,
oh, he says fuck, or he took nitrous on stage or whatever.
It's like, it's just hard.
You're never going to win.
Yeah.
So you might as well just help try to glue both sides together.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's the thing.
It's like, yes, if there's someone in my audience who voted for Trump, I want to change their mind.
I do.
You know, I'm not trying to say that like, I just love everyone as is.
I would love to get people to think bigger,
but I don't think I'm going to achieve that by saying,
fuck you.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
It doesn't work that way.
Well, yeah, and as musicians, I mean, as music,
we're the glue for people.
Yeah.
We don't want to marginalize anybody.
Yeah, and that's the point of,
I don't know if you saw me do this Flat Earth bit
that I was doing for a while.
No, no, tell me.
I do this bit that I kind of exhausted it, so it's semi-retired.
But basically, just like I watched a flat earth documentary, and I don't make fun of flat earthers anymore.
And I try to make it like this metaphor of, the whole point of it is like, I don't give a shit about the shape of the earth anymore.
Like, there's too much else going wrong.
I'm not going to argue.
I say, if somebody is a nice person
and they think the earth is flat, be cool.
If you're a dick, then we got a problem.
Basically, it's just like,
because that's how society is.
If somebody thinks differently than you,
it's really nice to make fun of them,
but that has not gotten us anywhere.
You know what I mean?
And I do think that,
if someone thinks the earth is flat well
first of all i also think that's pretty harmless but right but i also think that me making fun of
them isn't going to make them be like he made fun of me the earth is actually around you know
if anything it's going to be like i think it's flatter you know we are all children in a lot of
ways when it comes to our beliefs and so to a lot i mean to everything we're still children
a lot like besides like the things we want to mature on yeah everything else that we don't
work on we're fucking children exactly exactly and so when i see a bumper sticker that says like
you think abortion is wrong don't have one and i'm like that's that doesn't work you know what
i mean that's like saying you think uh you know you know, I'm not into the death penalty.
If I saw a book, Pumbaa Sigurður, it's like, if you're anti-death penalty, don't kill anyone.
It's like, no, but you're killing the people.
You know, so I think that there's, obviously, I'm extremely pro-choice, but how do I reach
these pro-life for people?
Not by telling them they're stupid or that they're hypocrites.
There's got to be another way.
And so that's sort of how I look at it with music
is that I don't want to get that easy clap from my constituents.
I don't want the liberals to just have the easy clap.
I want to be able, like, you know, I got them.
How do I get these other guys?
I don't know.
It's complicated.
What song do you feel like you felt like the most accomplished
of um gaining two people two groups together that's a good question you know i um i don't know
i mean one time one time i had played president silver line presidential silver lining and i got
uh somebody wrote me they maybe they were bullshitting, but they said, I voted for Trump, but now you have me seriously reconsidering that.
One time.
Let's fucking go.
Let's fucking go.
Let's go, Craigie.
That's great.
And I don't know if that's exactly the thing, but I do think that a lot of people that voted for Trump, uh,
was for like one reason,
you know what I mean?
Right.
I mean,
there's plenty of people who he's God to whatever,
but there's a lot of people out there who were just like,
look,
I like my guns.
I want my taxes low.
Yeah.
Biden scares me.
No problem.
Yeah.
So,
um,
anyway, I didn't mean to make this into like a political.
No,
it's not really a political.
It's just,
we're talking like how to,
how do you write songs with your views but also not you know isolating the other half of your fan
base that also loves the other songs you do yeah but that's why i don't think it's that's why it's
hard for me to sit down and just that's why i don't really have any that many love songs you
know yeah because i either want to make the world a better place
through this like, you know, getting everyone together,
or I want people who are like feeling hurt, feeling sad,
feeling suicidal, feeling alone, feeling marginalized, whatever.
I want them to be heard and felt like they're listened to.
So I want to sing to that.
Two people holding hands, skipping down the beach.
I don't really, I mean, they're fine.
You know what I mean?
But in a sense, that's deeper love.
You're writing about deeper love.
Thank you.
You're loving yourself.
Yes, yes.
Which I think is more important now.
I think maybe when, you know, rock and roll was young
or, you know, that was important for someone to feel like,
you know, for a young love to feel like they were heard
because maybe only songs were about marriage
or something like that.
But we've done, I feel like that's just so done.
And so I just am not that inspired.
Even when I am in love,
I'm not as inspired to sit down and write a song about that.
To me, it's got to be about something where,
like I want to lift somebody somebody up i think you
know and and i and i'm proud of that yeah and i don't and no one's has complained no one's been
like we need a love song from john craig nobody fucking wants the rambling man the wide man no
no exactly that's the same thing with me like every time i write a love song
it's it's hard i i write them about my friends' relationships, you know?
But like, you know, when my real fans are like,
oh yeah, I mean, listen to your podcast, Andy.
You're just having sex with everyone.
I don't know if this is true, dude.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, there's that too where I think people are like,
who is this about?
Yeah, exactly.
You know, I want to, I know you got to go to do your thing,
but I want to, you know, I want to do a tribute to your dad.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I really appreciate that.
Your dad passed away when, what, six months ago?
Coming up on a year, yeah.
Coming up on a year.
What did he teach you about work ethic?
What did he teach you about drive?
What did he teach you about just living and being a man?
Well, first of all, thank you for asking,
because I think one thing that's been really tricky about this
is as a humorous songwriter, it's been, I mean, I do it every show.
But it's hard to bring my dad up because, you know,
death is something that people don't want to talk about sometimes
or it's very sad.
And so when I ever,
that's one of the hardest parts of the show
is to breach the say,
okay, my dad passed.
Now we're going to talk about it.
And I make good jokes,
which is how he would have wanted it.
But I appreciate you asking
because I feel like a lot of people don't ask.
So what did he teach me?
Well, one, humor is, I would not be who I am without that you know he was classic dad joke dad you know
and so you know very and he was older right how you way older yeah yeah like he died how old was
he he was 91 you know yeah so he had you super late. Yeah, 50 when he had me, yeah. Oh, so he was full on dad jokes, dude.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He had 50 years of dad jokes.
Oh my God, yeah.
And so, you know, classic.
So when I was a kid, I didn't really think he was that funny, actually,
because, well, one, I heard the jokes every day.
That's the one criticism I would have.
I'm going to be like, dad, know your audience.
Like, we all heard this shit, you know,
but that's not what a dad gives a shit about.
But he was funny. He crafted it really really well and he's a great storyteller and i would watch him at like uh
parties or events like at my sister's wedding he gave a great um what do you call that talk speech
whatever you want speech that was very well crafted right funny and sweet, you know, funny and sad stuff.
And I saw that a lot growing up,
you know,
I saw,
I saw him succeed a lot in that.
I also saw him,
you know,
bomb a lot as a dad,
but he didn't give a shit.
And so just,
I can remember early on imitating that,
you know,
and stealing his jokes for sure.
When,
cause when you're seven, it doesn't, any joke, kids laugh.
But then, but then having just the confidence,
which I didn't have as a kid at all.
I was a nerdy kid.
I got picked on all this stuff,
but having the confidence to roll into class with a, with a bit,
with a joke, whatever, I wouldn't have had that.
And my other friends weren't, weren't funny because their dads weren't funny.
You know?
So he's all about preparing.
Yes.
Now,
as from,
as far as work ethic goes,
he was also extremely,
uh,
made,
one might argue too much,
you know,
obsessed with,
with work,
amazing work ethic,
you know,
and he was,
he worked all the time.
When I was a kid,
he was gone a lot,
you know,
cause he was working for his family,
he was on trips and stuff.
But,
you know,
that was inspiring to see.
And he was,
that's,
we had a lot of talks like that
and so when i became a musician he was very um nervous and not that supportive and i don't
diss him for that i mean because i think he's initially saw that as not the noble pursuit right
because working is all about like hard work you know it's not fun. That generation was so, the American dream was like nine to five,
supportive family type of thing, you know?
Yeah, and in the beginnings,
I was obviously working hard,
but there was nothing to show for, right?
I was poor as shit.
Yeah, exactly.
But I remember,
and there's actually a really beautiful photo
I have framed that my sister took,
but I played the Santa Barbara Bowl
opening for Jack Johnson in 2017.
And my parents came out,
which they weren't really coming out to shows at that time.
They were kind of like over it.
They came to that show.
It was the Bowl with Jack.
Huge.
Huge.
And we got them backstage and everything.
They met Jack.
And there's just this moment,
my sister has the picture,
where dad and I are shaking hands.
And it's the moment where he's like,
oh, this is a job.
And then from that
moment on, all our conversations were all about, you know, he really was interested in it. You
know, he really cared. He was like, okay, where are you at now? Okay. How's the, how's the album
doing? Oh, you sold this many shirts, you know? And he was just really into that. And, um, that
was when the, you know, that was 2017. So we had about four years of that sort of mutual respect.
And.
Oh,
like the tip of the hat.
Yeah.
It was really sweet.
And,
you know,
I,
I feel bad.
I never was able to,
you know,
give him a grandkids.
He has them from my sister did great,
did great.
Or,
or,
you know,
he also really valued marriage and stuff like that.
And I think he worried about that side of me,
but he also got it because he knew he was married three times.
Oh, really?
Yeah, because my mom was the third.
And so he understood.
Anytime I had a breakup, he got it, you know?
Well, and yeah, you're the wild man in the family.
Yeah, and he got that too.
You know, I think I got that from him in a way.
You know, I think just the sort of obsession with romance and lust and all that stuff,
you know, I think he handled it better.
He was better at reining it in a little bit, you know?
Yeah.
So anyway, I just, I appreciate you asking,
but I think those were huge,
but the humor and the storytelling was big.
I watched him, he had it really well calculated.
I watched him tell the same story 50 times.
I knew where the beats were.
I knew where the important hits were.
All about landing the plane, they say.
You know, finishing the story.
And in the plane.
That's a great analogy.
Yeah, because a lot of people, you'll see this.
They'll tell a story and they don't know how to end it.
Yeah.
You got to end it.
You got to end it.
The thing about stories is like, they don't end, right?
Their life doesn't end.
No.
So if I'm going to tell you what happened yesterday, you know, it could go into today.
Yeah.
So I got to find out how do you end it, which is really hard.
So he taught you how to end stories?
Yes.
Not like he didn't sit me down and say, but.
By observing it.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I really, and that's something that he knew. I was, I would, you know,
the last show that he saw of mine at the Troubadour in LA,
he was sitting right above me on that.
You've been Troubadour.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, and he had.
That's like a hometown show for you too.
Yeah, exactly.
And he had seen like, you know.
Elton John.
Yeah, Linda Ronstadt, all those guys there.
And we had that moment, you know,
where I was able to thank him
for it
I did many times
he knew
and that was really sweet
do you think if y'all didn't
growing up in LA
with how tough it is to make a living in LA
and blah blah blah
he's basically trained his brain
to survive
in an
expensive city. Do you think he
would have been looser on you
if you guys lived in Iowa?
Maybe. For him, it wasn't
even about money. I mean, it was, but it was
about just the duty of a man
to have this career.
And I remember
even when I would have
smaller jobs, he thought that was cool but
you know for him he was just more old school he's like no you got to get that thing yeah get
grinded out my dad's like that too yeah exactly so I don't know that's a really good question
but I think it was really just the uh it was more about the duty of the man and again you know and
you're probably the same way like I was breaking new ground in that there was no artist ever in the
Craigies that we knew of.
There was no one who hadn't just done a job.
And so I think it was just like scary for him,
you know?
Yeah.
And like,
you know,
he's so much older.
Yeah.
Like he had you,
what,
when you're,
he was 51 or 50?
Jesus.
Oh.
That,
that dick still works though.
Let's go.
Craigie's out here.
Craigie's here.
We're very happy.
Thank God.
I'm thankful that
I'm thankful that you're
in my life
and in everyone's life
because
you are one of the greats.
Thanks Andy.
You too buddy.
When's the record coming out?
April 15th.
Let's go.
You excited?
Nervous?
How you feeling?
I'm excited.
You like these releases?
No. Me neither. I hate it all.
I just want it to drop silently
and just let people listen to it at their own accord.
I don't like all the pomp and circumstance.
But I want it done,
out, in hands, because that's really
when I can begin to focus on the next one.
Which I'm already...
As soon as I get out of that studio,
I start writing the new stuff.
But I can't really relax on it until it's done,
until we're out there.
Also, too, I think it's just like,
I trip on death all the time.
And all the time, I'm like, okay, can I die now?
And I'm like, okay, cool.
I can because, you know.
I just put out a new piece.
But when the shit's still getting mixed, I was like,
I can't die now. Phil can't be mixing this shit.
I got 10 interviews
in the can. They need to come out.
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, that's the thing I don't like about the music industry
is like, we prepare
for like, oh man, six months.
Records coming out in six months.
I'm like, let's just put it out.
Because like, if it doesn't get the reaction
that I have in my head
or my management has in my head
of how the record's going to be
and it's a let down
it just deflates
so like we might as well just
in this ADD culture I feel like we don't have to
I don't know
and I'm over all that stuff
I got no publicist
it's coming out.
Let's go.
Yeah, exactly.
Let's go.
DIY baby, let's go.
The people know where it's at.
They're going to listen.
They're going to tell their friends.
It's how it's always been.
I fucking, if like, you know,
Rolling Stone doesn't say a stupid thing about it.
I love you Rolling Stone,
but if it does, I don't give a fuck.
You know, if this blog doesn't say anything, who cares?
I just want the people to have access to it,
listen to it, tell their friends, and that's it.
They can buy a t-shirt if they want.
I don't care.
I'm honored because my record comes out that week too.
Really? What day?
Friday the 18th? I don't know.
No, no, no. It's got to be the same day.
Oh, yeah.
We're going to be birthday.
I'm hyping yours.
I'm hyping yours.
We're going to put this out the same week.
We'll decide both our records.
I think it's Friday.
No, it is April 8th, the week before.
Okay.
All right.
So it'll be Frasco Craigie month, dude.
I love it.
So you're going on tour in April?
Yeah.
Like you're doing a big one?
Yeah.
Like full out?
Well, you know, for me, what I like to do is have the album release tour a few months
after kind of because I like getting people to know the songs
but I'm doing a big tour
in April
as the singles are coming out
the album's actually going to drop
after that tour
and then I hit summer stuff
and everything like that
so
it's kind of a weird timing
but I also
for me
it's like
I like
it's
I remember I saw Wilco
on the Ghost is Born tour
but it was like
six months after the record
could come out
and it was great because the audience knew every song
and it was really cool.
Yeah, and you play them a little bit.
You know, like that's,
this is going to be probably a challenge for you.
These songs, playing them live.
Yeah, very, very.
Because it's very,
there's a lot of sounds in this new record.
Yeah, I don't know what I'm going to do.
I'm excited.
I'm excited to see what you do with it.
And like how you're going to do it solo.
Because you love doing the solo show too.
Yeah.
I might get a little box or something where I can just push a little.
That's a good idea.
Yeah.
I saw.
One man band.
Ed Sheeran.
Yeah.
Leonard Cohen had that too.
I saw a couple of them.
And who else?
JJ Kale,
I think did some of that stuff,
you know?
Fuck it.
Who cares?
It'll be fun.
Do whatever the fuck you want,
Craigie.
Yeah.
Seriously.
John Craigie.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Another,
another,
another year around the sun.
And I'm just thankful
For your friendship
And so go grab his record
And I can't wait
I fucking can't wait
Yeah
Yours too buddy
And I'm coming
I'm coming to E-Town
Thanks
What's your record called?
My Wash, Rinse, Repeat
Yes
Wash, April 8th
Wash, Rinse, Repeat
John Craigie
April 15th
Yeah
What is it called?
Mermaid Tail?
Salt
Mermaid Salt
Ooh hot
Why is it called Mermaid Salt?
We'll talk about that later.
Okay.
Craigie, thanks for being on the show and enjoy Denver.
Yeah.
Stay warm.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Craigie is the man.
You tuned in to the World's Best Podcast with Andy Fresco, now in its fourth season.
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