Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 217: Theo Katzman

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

Andy and the boys have a new song debut with a message of self-acceptance: You Do You. And on the Interview Hour, we welcome back a man who's saving the world, one song at a time: Theo Katzman! Theo and Andy break open the "divine design" of it all, and ice baths, naturally. Also! Discussions on recording techniques shared by Theo's other band, Vulfpeck and another little known band: The Beatles (ever heard of em?). Catch Theo on the road with some of the best musicians out there and stream his excellent new album. Call, leave a message, and tell us how you really feel: [phone]  Watch this episode streaming now!! Psyched to partner up with our buddies at Volume.com! Check out their roster of upcoming live events and on-demand shows to enrich that sweet life of yours. Pre-save You Do You on apple music and/or Spotify! And don't forget to catch the band in a town near you andyfrasco.com/tour Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For more information on Andy Frasco, the band and/or the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com Check out our good friends that help us unwind and sleep easy while on the road and at home: dialedingummies.com Check out Andy Frasco & The U.N. (Feat Little Stranger)'s new song, "Oh, What A Life" on iTunes, Spotify  Produced by Andy Frasco, Joe Angelhow, & Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: The U.N. Arno Bakker

Hey guys, it's Andy. Hope you're kicking ass out there. Wherever you are, just fucking killing it. I am excited to announce that we are releasing a new single on Friday. Yes. And because you're our podcast, we love to premiere a couple days early for you guys. So I'm going to show you a little sneak preview of a song called You Do You. You could actually pre-save this song.

The link is in the bio of this podcast episode if you like it. I hope you do. We're really proud of it. It comes out Friday. So Chris, play the flutes, baby. It's going down. So ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to show you a world premiere of our new single, Andy Frasco and the U.N., You Do You. If you're a girl and you wanna love a girl, go ahead and love a girl Cause that's what you're gonna do If you're a guy and you wanna love a guy, go ahead and love a guy Cause that's what you're gonna do It doesn't matter if you're rich or you're broke It doesn't matter if you're young or you're old

We ain't wrapped up in the he said, she said, they said, we said We roll our own way We don't care who you love, no We don't care where you come from You do you Let us do us We don't care if you listen We all share this existence

You do you Let us do us Woooo Woooo Woooo Woooo Hey! All right, and we're live. Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast. I'm Andy Frasco.

How's our heads? How's our minds? How we doing? Feeling good? Feeling great? Hope so. I feel good today. I'm a little high, so I'm like a little bit. Long travel day was at the bullshit. Man, that Dallas airport is bullshit.

Fort Worth or something? The trains don't work and no one knows what the fuck's going on. We were running. We almost missed our flight. We probably would have missed the gig because there's not a lot of flights going to Benville. I'm like, fuck, we're running. Sean's pissed. He's got a shitty ass knee. He missed the train.

He had to run his ass from two terminals away while the crew was just circling the train. The train wouldn't leave. I'm like, why are we just circling? This ain't a Disneyland ride. What the fuck is going on? We were already late to our because we had only like a 40-minute layover and we're running.

I felt like Keanu Reeves in Speed, you know, like, fuck. It's like, oh my god, is this train ever going to stop? But anyway, we made it. So shout out. Shout out to Bo getting us there. Shout out to American airlines.

I don't really fuck with American airlines and they, uh, guys there, but, um, anyway, we're here. We made it.

Um, feeling good. Festival season is here. And speaking of festival season, volume.com. Yes. Volume.com. Um,

they're going to be streaming a lot of shows this summer I'm feeling they've been killing it with shout out to volume by the way what a fucking live show what a live stream we're just finally getting our groove with them head over to volume.com they got great shows that have been live streamed

they archive all of them they're our podcast if you want to see my haggard ass after traveling all day Head to volume.com and watch the show And we got Theo Katzman in the studio You should go check You should watch some of the videos Watch some of the videos if you don't

I know a lot of people listen to audio To just see the expressions On Theo's face He's so enthusiastic about life And it changes his life. He's been doing these ice baths and shit. But if you want to watch it, put it on.

Let you fall asleep or something. But anyway, back to volume.com. Watch some of these streams that are going on. Volume.com is killing it. The quality is killer. And if you're a creator, if you're in a band and you want to do some live stream work or get some shows archived,

might as well head to volume.com slash creator. It's going to help your career. It's a new age now. You need to have your shows online. That's just what it is. If you're a new band, get some fucking content out there, bud.

Use volume.com. Get your content out there. Let's go. But yeah, anyway, it's festival season. I'm in that mode where it's like, oh, I'm stressed out. I haven't really thought about any of the sets, the festival sets, because I've

been balls deep in interviewing podcast people and getting ready to release an album. By the way, I hope you enjoyed the sneak peek of You Do You. I'm really proud of that song. The whole band is, I think, hopefully we get some legs on that because that song's important

because we're talking LGBTQ. We got to take care of our queens and kings and theys and thems. We got to get all of them. We got to take care of our queens and kings and theys and thems. We got to get all of them. We need to protect them. Shit's going down in this country. We need to get them rocking. Support our people.

And then what else? Oh, yeah. Dialed in gummies. Speaking again, hi. It's a short opening. The interview with Theo Katzman from Wolfpack, and he's a solo artist, just put out a new record.

It's fucking awesome, and I didn't want to cut a lot, and it's kind of a long interview, so I'm going to keep this short. I'll have Nick with me in the studio next week. We'll shoot the shit. We'll shoot the shit for an hour and talk about what's been going on

the last three weeks and the live stream. That was a blast, New Orleans, you're the fucking shit, we'll talk about that next week, but Dialed and Gummies, Colorado, I know I tell you this all the time, all my people in Colorado, it's been great to, you know, go to Cervantes or go to the bars and say, Frasco, Dialed and Gummies, let's go. We're all on the kick. I'm like, yeah, thank God. Get with it because Dialed and Gummies are the shit. The best gummies, Rosin Gummies, and they have all different strains from Colorado. So if you're like going to a show,

going to Red Rocks or you're going out, you know, it's summertime in Denver. That's when everyone's coming out here going to see the Red Rocks and the fishes of the world and all their all the other shit goes down in the mountains. Shows in the mountains and shit. Go stop by a dispensary and ask for dialed-in gummies.

And also see if there's any world-saving batches left. I think it's all sold out, but there's a couple stores I can't remember. Maybe Native Roots or maybe oh God. Kush Club might have some world-saving batches left. They're great. They're Lakers.

They're great. I like them. I've been eating like a half one to go to bed, and that's all I need. I'm like, you know, it's got the right dosage. So get yourself some dialed-in gummies and get this shit popping. All right.

We're going to have a great show. We're going to have a great week It's fucking May Summertime is here We're feeling good We're getting out those summer outfits We're probably like working out and shit Getting ready for summer

Like oh I'm gonna be bad bitch this summer I'm gonna be that dude this summer You know what I'm saying? I feel you Go get out there Get a sweat on Get your kings and queens shit on And let's take over this goddamn summer

It's time Time to wake up a little bit You know, we've been in that fucking December, winter And then spring came really quick for a second Then it started fucking raining again Or snowing You're like, oh fuck

I thought I had a I thought I was coming out alive like a creature, like, ah, and you had to go back in your house, well, now it's time, it's time to fucking show people what vitamin D does to our body, we're going to be happy, we're going to be stoked on shit, you know, we're not going to be all depressed, like, winter gets you depressed, like, ah, like, ah, fuck, we're going to be stoked on that shit, because that's what we got, we don't know, it's always, you know, we got one time, what are we going to do with it, we could convince our brain, like, hey, man, I'm going to be shitty today, I'm going to be shitty, I'm fucking

shitty, you know, fuck this, I don't care if the sun's out, I don't care if my homies are having fun, laughing and shit, I'm going to be shitty, Or we can be like, I was shitty yesterday. All my friends are having a good time. There's music in the air. The sun's out. Maybe, maybe you're like, fuck it. I'm going to take the kayak out. Fucking do it. Got to keep happy. Got to keep inspiring yourself to keep going. Because the minute we get in the rut that we're fucking sad and blah, blah, blah, like, ah, fuck. We start getting sad. And we shouldn't get sad because we're alive. You made it. You made it. Your dick, not your dick, your dad's dick had cum in it.

This is anatomy 101 with Frasco. Your mother, and that cum, there was billions of cums in that shit. There was tons of cum in his balls. I don't know, maybe he was kind of sterile and he had a couple left. And you were like, fuck it, you're the last of the Mohegans. Your mom had tons of eggs. You swam. You were like doing a marathon in your mom's body.

Just running like, trying to find an egg. You know, it's like Hunger Games. That sperm was like Hunger Games. Like, I got to get to the end of this. You got to that egg. You fertilize or whatever happens then. And you became you. One hundred other mother...

Some of that sperm did not make that path. Unless you're like a twin or like Octomom and shit. Shout out to Octomom and shit. Like shout out to Octomom. That shit's nuts. Shit's nuts. You know what I'm saying? You made it.

So what are you going to do about it? Go have fun. Go have fun. Go kill it out there. Summertime. Let's get crazy. Let's get whipped up. Let's try not to drink too much.

That's why I've been on that kick. I'm like, I'm not going to drink that much I'm like, uh Don't feel good, I'm getting older I see all the young bucks out there just fucking Slapping the bag of wine I'm like, I don't want to do that anymore I want to have a couple beers Go get some sunshine

Maybe, uh, I don't know, kayak Or some shit, I don't know, I'm probably not a kayak I'm over jail I'm like, just or some shit I'm probably not a kayak I'm over jail I'm like, just get some sunshine, Frasco Put on your sunglasses I might put some air in my bike Go just Circle the neighborhood, see all the cougars

In my neighborhood, like, what's up, Miss Tanya? What's up? Hey, Miss Robinson, what's up, baby girl? How you doing? Man, that cookies you sent me to my house Was dope Alright, I'm already talking for 11 minutes. I told myself this was going to be a short one. You know what I'm saying? Get out there.

Go have fun. Go be there. Go get the vibes. Because that's all we got. That's all we got. We decide every day if we want to be sad or happy. So let's try to decide to be happy. I know I'm just like, but what if you're just super depressed

and you just can't wake up from it? I get it, at least try, try to be happy, you know, if you try, then at least you dedicate your day to try to get yourself better out of that rut, and we just got to keep improving, and keep, you know, getting to know each other, getting to know ourselves, because the minute we stop learning, I feel like we die, so if we getting to know ourselves, because the minute we stop learning, I feel like we die. So if we keep learning about ourselves, keep learning, keep learning, maybe we'll never die.

Hell yeah. That's optimism. All right. There we go. I feel good. That pumped me up too. Next week, we have got Kerlox. We got me and him.

We're going to talk for shit for an hour. I haven't talked to him in a couple weeks. I've been traveling, but it'll be good to see him. I saw him at the New Orleans thing, but that was only for an hour. I haven't talked to him in a couple weeks. I've been traveling. But it'll be good to see him. I saw him at the New Orleans thing, but that was only for a day. Theo Katzman. Let me pimp out Theo for a second.

Hey, Chris, play some Theo Katzman's new record. That song about life. You know what I'm talking about. I fucking love this song. I want to be from somewhere. I want to stand for something. But the price of my freedom, you couldn't pay me nothing.

Phil Kassman's killing it. He just put out a new record. He's in Fulfpeck. He wrote a lot of those songs, like Back Pocket. He wrote all that shit. And we talk about the difference playing Madison Square Garden with Fulfpeck

and then going into your solo career and playing still fucking big rooms 1500 cap rooms 2000 cap rooms but like the adjustment of your mind of what success is

I think this is a great conversation alright guys I love you and enjoy Theo Castle the one thing i thought everybody let's fucking go what What's up, dawg? Brasco, what's up, man? How you doing? Bro!

Big moves for you, dude. Saving the world, man. One podcast at a time, dude. World saving. We're trying, man. You're saving the world one song at a time. Oh, shit. This new record is so good.

I have so many questions. Thanks so much, man. Hopefully, I have some answers. Okay. First off, tour bus. Awesome. Yes, agreed. What's up with that? Are you sleeping more?

So, okay. Right to the heart of the matter. That's the one thing I haven't really dialed in yet. Yeah. It's a little hit or miss depending on... Right. I don't know what... We're all trying to figure that out. Like what? You can't sleep when it's moving? It's sort of like you can either sleep when it's moving? It's sort of like, you can either sleep when it's moving

or you can sleep when it's stopped, but whenever those things change, whenever the state, if there's a change of state. Like gas? Like say the bus driver's got to get gas. Yeah, there's,

it's basically like, you just wake up a few times a night, but I've heard people say that they get used to it eventually. I'm sure I will. It's still early enough in the tour where I've had one or two times where I actually just had some Southwest points, so I flew. I love it.

You know what I mean? Like today, you're driving. Yeah, I'm going to fly to Dallas. But it's a game changer, man. I know that you might be like, wait, if you're not sleeping as well, how is it a game changer? But it's allowed me to bring an amazing tech on the road, Mr. Cheeks.

Yeah, shout out. Who I met working with Alan Stone. And Cheeks has been amazingly helpful because now we have somebody coordinating load in, load out, setting up the stage. Wow. We're able to deliver much more dialed in show. It's like everything's there.

I also have a merch guy on the road now. So I'm actually doing merch effectively. Thanks to Ricky. Thank you, Ricky. Shout out to Ricky. And it's also nice because when you have hotels, you got to wake up at 7 a.m. to get to the next town. I know.

So you're going there at 1 a.m. and then waking up at 7. It feels like it's a waste of money. It's gnarly. That's also gnarly on sleep in its own a.m. and then waking up at 7, it feels like it's a waste of money. It's gnarly. That's also gnarly on sleep in its own way. And also, this is the first tour where Joe Dart and myself aren't driving the whole time. Oh, so you and Dart would drive? Yeah, we'd drive, man.

I've driven across the country with Dart more times than I can count. We used to just drive without having a reason. We would be like, let's go to LA. It's not like your best friend. He's one of my best friends, for sure. He's a brother. What's his vibe?

He's amazing, man. Nobody really knows, right? It's such a mystery. I think that's intentional. He's an international man of mystery, but one of the most warm, kind, highly intentional, He's international man of mystery But one of the Most warm kind Highly intentional

Impeccable with his word Joe is like the least He's probably the least judgmental person I've ever met in my life He throws no shade ever At anyone I've never seen him throw an ounce Of shade in private Even when trying to discern like hey is so and so

Like is this legit? And he's like, well, man, I mean, I can understand. He's seriously like, it's not a joke. He's like a very balanced, truly tapped in human. And I think that's part of his playing too. You know, like he's he's he's dart man what about you are you tapped in like that I'm working on it yeah Joe's an influence

for sure I think we're all kind of tapped into different different things you know I don't who knows if we'll ever know how much of this personality we shipped in with versus how much was influenced by our surroundings you know but I certainly have a unique you know, but I certainly have a unique, you know, personality,

way things that occur to me. And that's one of the amazing things about being in community. And what we really do out here as musicians is we get to be in community in these very deep ways. I mean, how many times have you had a door open to you because somebody's like, Andy, I love your music, man. Hey, come to the house. Or like, do you need dental work? Or it's like, what?

You know, like amazing the way that music can touch people and the doors can open just out of true, genuine connection. You don't get that shit being an accountant. Probably not the same. Not the same. Although we need you, accountants. Thank you. Shout out to the accountants. We're dogging on the accountants.

You brought up something that's pretty interesting to me, what I'm thinking too. Is our conscious downloaded or is it just because it's from our past lives? You know, man, that's one of the questions. What do you think?

I think, I mean, first of all, I have no idea. Number one. Two, I kind of highly doubt anyone could ever know. Three, now that we've established those things, it is not at all absurd to me to think that consciousness is just past life constantly retaking form right um and honestly part of the reason that that that seems plausible is because we know that energy is not created or

destroyed it's just transferred so it's like why wouldn't consciousness be it seems like everything is just transferred right you know over and over again like from the trees to, you know, soil, mycelium, et cetera, et cetera. We see it in nature. So we tend to think of human beings as this like thing that's not in nature, which is completely hilarious to me. Yeah. I don't get that either. Every single thing about us is, is nature.

Right. So, you know what I mean? I totally agree. It's kind of funny. So I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I certainly feel like some of my experiences in the kind of like spiritual practice realm have led me to believe that or have experiences where I'm in touch with a past trauma that I didn't even know was there or something where I'm like, whoa, this was really deep somewhere in my being or like, you know, the Wim Hof method, the breath work that we do. I've had my own experience getting in touch with, you know, very deep past. It's like, what is this from?

And it's like, I don't know. Yeah. Because I remember when we talked like three years ago. Jeez. Three years ago. It was, bro. And you're in your apartment in LA. It was COVID.

Yeah. And you're kind of having a hard time adjusting to that idea. You know, 2019, September, Wolfpack played The Garden. Yeah. And it was like biggest gig any of us had ever done. Right. It was amazing, you know. And it was also like a lot of stress that goes into just holding the space in your being that,

holding the space where you're like sitting under the weight of like, are we going to like completely go bankrupt and have to like take out loans for the rest of our lives? Because we just tried to play a room that costs a million dollars to turn the lights on and we sold 25 tickets, you know, like people don't really understand um that and and and i'm sure you you deal with this too yeah where people be like oh you're gonna do so great on tour and you're like no i know i'm gonna do great i believe in

myself don't worry about that it's not that it's just whether or not like the free market of human attention is gonna shower me with the real Grammy, which is all the tickets sold. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, exactly. It's like, that's the whole game. And we really, as artists, we need to like really, I mean, to me, this is like this path of being an artist really requires a lot of spiritual practice. I agree. Because you're dealing with ego,

you're dealing with self, you got your name on the marquee. It's like, well, what product is for sale tonight? Oh, that one's called Andy Frasco. You're like, oh, let me wait one second. Let me take my birth certificate out. Oh, wouldn't you know? It's the same name on that thing.

You know? Yeah, bro. Shit, this is like, you're not selling like Nestle or like Norelco you're selling you and so that comes with its own set of challenges and I think at the end of 2019 with the amount of added

kind of like human attention focused on Wolfpack and me you know wanting to find my way as a solo artist I was sort of like and then I did the biggest tour of my life as a solo artist following that, I was sort of like, uh, and then I did the, you know, the biggest tour of my life as a solo artist following that up. But I had a lot of, um, insecurities about whether people were showing up because they wanted to hear both tunes or if they actually knew my music

because I had been doing my thing for about a decade prior, but it was gradually building and it was gradually building in a way that I was totally happy with. But once the garden thing happened, it was like, or, you know, the lead up to the garden and all the stuff that happened in Wolf, it was like, all of a sudden now, now I'm not playing, I'm playing a venue three times as big as the last one I played in New York. You know what I mean? It's like, so it's like, there was a certain amount of just, I just didn't trust yet from the feedback from the market, if you will,

like that my thing was actually worth that many tickets. So here we are playing Brooklyn Steel, you know, which is 1800. Your band played Brooklyn Steel? Yeah. I sold out Brooklyn Steel. Yeah. Yeah. Let's fucking go. My boy's moving. Yeah, baby. And, uh, we made a live record out of that show. Actually. It's called a modern Sings Songs in the Age of Live. Fuck, it's so brilliant, dude. Thank you. It was at Brooklyn Steel. It was a great concert.

And people were singing along the whole show. And it was amazing. And I was totally thrilled with that. So there was nothing wrong with any of this. It was just the reason I kind of burnt out after that tour was over is I had hit, I had been living under the stress of like feeling like this isn't going to work for so many months. You know, when the tour is booked and you're going like, man, the last show we sold,

you know, we sold out Music Hall of Williamsburg. That's like what? $750. And that was tremendous for me. I grew up in New York, you know, tremendous achievement. And I'm like, okay, cool. Let's do it again. Or like, I don't know let's do yeah like a thousand tickets and then the agent's like you're going to 1800 tickets and you're like there's no way i can do that you know what i mean yeah and so just living under the weight of that pressure um was was i just noticed once once that tour ended and it ended abruptly because COVID just hit. Were you able to finish the tour? No. We lost the last three

shows, which honestly, I'm grateful that was only three because I have friends. I'm sure you do. Maybe you were even about to go out for probably... I finished my tour a day before COVID. March 14th? March 13th was my last show. Wow, bro. So you and I were the only... We're like the two acts that were out that early that year.

And I was kind of going through the same thing where it was like my band was just starting to pop. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the world stopped. Yeah. So that was intense. It was intense for everybody. But yeah.

So that was why I think mainly I was having a hard time is I kind of had to make that adjustment in my mind that just trusting that people were actually coming to these shows to hear this music, you know? Were you afraid people were going to forget about you? You know, I wasn't, with COVID, I mean, yeah, I was there, there was a fear there for sure. But as I've learned with most fears, it's like, you got to run at the fear, man. You got to like sink into the fear and like really let it penetrate you such that you don't worry about it anymore.

You know, you got to do it anyway. So for me with the idea of like, are people going to forget about me? I was certainly, there was that fear, but then it's like, okay, so what are you going to do about it? And if you're in a mode in your life where you're like, right now, I'm kind of depressed and I know that I need to sort of like seek grounded calm and that's the next step for me, no matter what I do, then what are you going to do about the fact that people might forget about you? What are you going to fling chunks of steak at the internet every day and be like, hey, I'm not, everything's fine.

We're good, we're good, we're good, brother. I couldn't do that and it just didn't work. Yeah, I couldn't do it. For me, I just went into that time, took the, basically took the forced time off as a forced emotional you know, emotional reset. And then, you know, I ended up just writing a bunch of songs that ended up becoming my next record.

So ultimately, you know, I was really grateful for that time. It was painful. Yeah. There was a lot of uncertainty. But, you know, in times of tremendous uncertainty, it seems like that's consistently where a deeper set, a deeper foundational confidence is born because you realize like, you know what, I'm not going to die. So what if everybody forgets about me? So what, why am I even doing this? Am I doing this so that everybody will know about me? No,

that's not even why I'm doing it. Okay. Well then why am I doing it? Well, I'm doing it to honor the gifts that I've been given and I'm doing it to find out more about who I am as a person so that I can show up as a better person in the world. And if I do that effectively, such that the music I write actually inspires me, chances are it's going to inspire somebody who connects with it as a listener. I agree.

And so to me, that's where music, the sort of artist path becomes a service to humanity. It's not like, there's one way to do it where you're just trying to make sure you sell more headbands or like you want to sell more Reeboks or whatever. And I'm not knocking Reebok either, by the way. I appreciate having shoes.

Yeah, part of the game. Yeah, the game thing. Or you can do it for your own sort of spiritual growth and knowing that if you can do that, you're going to connect with more people. It's going to be a stronger... The connection anyway will be stronger. And you know what?

Typically, you'll sell stuff. Right. If you do that. It's like the idea of authenticity. People can see when You're not being authentic with your music I know man Totally

It's something we all have to face As artists probably in every endeavor In life And I don't know here's my little take on it My take has always been like If you can make more money More quickly Doing someone else's thing or copying it or whatever, but there's a ceiling and it's not that big. Or you can try to go do your own thing

and it might take a lot longer or you may never make any money, but the ceiling is the Beatles. Yeah. So it's like, that's pretty big. Is that how you felt about Wolfpack? or you may never make any money. But the ceiling is the Beatles. Yeah. That's pretty big. Is that how you felt about Wolfpack? Sure. Yeah. I mean,

Wolf is like, I think it's very easy for somebody to look at Wolf now. Anytime something is like, once it's communicating, it sort of is defined. Yeah. So people go like, oh yeah,

it was the Wolf thing. Yeah. You know, it's kind of like, yeah, it's like, oh yeah, he was, yeah he was exactly but it's like you know Wolf was zero for I don't know six years it was just a once a year

meet up with an aim of being as weird as we felt we were and that was completely natural and it was like you know and it was not just once a year meet up it's like a ten year friendship you know between us and it's like, you know, and it was not just once a year meetup, it's like a 10 year friendship between us and it's also Jack's...

Brainchild? True, well, yes, but also like Volf is, you know, in as much as it's music or it's a band, I hope people also are aware that it's also us all witnessing like the true brilliant,, three-dimensional art, marketing, financial gimmick. Jack is one of the brilliant artists of our time.

And to be aware of Wolfpack is to be witnessing... Jack's brain. Yeah. I think of him as like he's steve jobs man he's steve jobs but he's as funky as purdy it's like if steve jobs was you know we're funky like i mean okay we all purdy's the king so but but you know what i mean like it's it's uh to me that's like that's a huge part of the beauty of Volf. And I don't know if people realize that, but it's like, that's... So sometimes people are like,

why doesn't Volf do this or that? And I'm like, they don't know that ultimately the way that project works, and this is by design, is like whatever is exciting, thrilling, edgy, risky for Jack is like that's what Wolf will be it's like the Klezmer record he put out and stuff yeah you know and like Jack is

Jack is no joke man he's funny but he ain't a joke Jack's like I mean he's one of my best friends and I'm I'm just it's been a total honor and a thrill to have a front row seat in his process and to be a part of his process I mean a lot of it's collaborative but it's been a total honor and a thrill to, to, to have a front row seat in his process and to be a part of his process.

I mean, you know, a lot of it's collaborative, but it's like, he's the final say. Yeah. He's well, he,

yes. And it's, it's, it was always that it was not like, uh, there's no rub at all there, you know? Yeah.

But like, with that being said, do you like being your own boss? Well, yeah. In terms of my project. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing is I, I set out to be a singer songwriter and write my own music. like with that being said do you like being your own boss well yeah in terms of my project yeah yeah i mean the thing is i i set out to be a singer songwriter and write my own music and so

i just kept doing that still doing it it never it was never like oh man i need more power in wolf you know it was like we were just doing those things concurrently. Right. And it was always the understanding. So the idea of Catsman going out solo was in your brain since you were like 12, 11, right? Yeah. I've just been writing songs and this is just what I do. What was the first song you ever wrote? What was it about? The first song that I ever wrote that I was proud of was called... That's an interesting question man It was called The Wall Divine

And it was Really inspired when A friend of mine Timothy Miller who was a wonderful Amazing dude Kid in New York He died tragically From a dairy allergy

Oh shit It was The first big tragedy in my life And how old were you? died tragically from a dairy allergy. Oh, shit. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, you know, the first big tragedy in my life. And how old were you? I was 16.

Oh, fuck. Yeah, it was, it was tragic. And, um, He was close to you? Yeah, we were, we were, you know, we were childhood friends,

but we were, we were homies growing up and, and, uh, I think it just, it, it, and he and I always had a strong connection with, with music. He was really into Grateful Dead and he got me into The Dead and he and I always had a strong connection with, with music.

He was really into Grateful Dead and he got me into the dead and he got me into all kinds of, he was a kid who like knew records and listened to stuff, you know? And, um, I was getting, I was playing musical instruments, but I was always like also an athlete and like, I was just kind of running with the pack in high school, whatever, playing sports. Were you competitive? Um, I was, I don't think I realized how competitive I was until I got to college and I wasn't the best kid in the music program anymore.

I hear you. And then I had a meltdown and I was like, oh my God. Oh yeah. I was like, I, I. What happened? Well, what happened was I heard, well, so to answer the first question, I wrote that song inspired by Tim and his life and I got to play it. I was in a cover band, you know,

and I played that song and everybody was like, wow, that was really good, you know? And then they wanted to hear it. And then we would be playing parties on Long Island and we'd play Sweet Sixteens or graduation parties. And then people started requesting that and I started writing others. And then we sort of were, you know, started playing original music. So it never occurred to me even that there was even an option to be a singer songwriter. It

wasn't even that dialed. It was just like, I write songs, I sing them and I sing them in my band. And then I went, but I was also always a drummer and because drums were my first instrument so I was like playing drums in the school band and the jazz band and when it came time to like think about college I was like well I should probably be in the music program so I'll audition

on my main instrument which is drums because there wasn't any like singer songwriter program at anywhere but Berklee and for some reason it hadn't occurred to me to go to Berkeley. You went to Michigan, right? I went to Michigan. So I ended up, you know, getting into the jazz program on drum set and I was able to

get a scholarship, which was amazing. And then I get to the program and I basically say within three weeks, I'm like, guys, I don't want to, I don't want to play jazz drums. I'm a singer songwriter. And they're all like, well, what are you talking about? We like, guys, I don't want to play jazz drums. I'm a singer-songwriter. And they're all like, well, what are you talking about? We need you playing drums. We recruited you for this.

Was that hard to be truthful with the people who recruited you for that? Or you've always been honest about how you feel? I tend to snap and just tell the truth. If I'm hiding my deeper uh i'm not a very good actor when it comes to that with lovers oh yeah i'm yeah that's why i can't uh i guess this is now we're getting into it yeah but it's like the it's pretty much got to be like a deep connection or it's not gonna happen for me just because it's it's too obvious yeah yeah and it's what am i doing you know what i mean same way i'm the same way yeah so sometimes

people like oh why are you oh you're single it's like yeah i'm just you know i'm waiting for and you know yeah it's not like i'm not interested it's just like right it's got to be uh something perfect well i mean i know that it won't be perfect, but I think... Yeah, I'm just interested in depth. So that's a little more rare, right? Right. I mean, we normally go do things

because either we're lonely or we're just like want to pick something fast, right? Yeah. A lot of people don't take their time to really find out what, between the connection you want with someone and the connection you want with yourself. There you go.

You just said the first part is the second part there. Right. It starts with the connection you have with yourself. And how are you going to get that if you're never alone? Exactly. And so, you know, this is the greater joke to me of, of human, of the human condition is that like, we're wired to, you know, feel bad about loneliness or

like, you know, we don't want, we don't want what we don't want. We don't like what we don't want. You know, we don't like pain. We don't like sadness. We don't like these things. We don't like pain. We don't like sadness. We don't like these things. And so we try to avoid them. But if we avoid them, we never grow in the ways that they would have otherwise grown us into.

Like you want to have a foundation in yourself? I think you got to be alone for a little while. I agree. And if you want to be able to do things that you're scared of, you need practice sitting with your fear. And if, you know what I mean? So it's to me like, it's not a judgment on anyone, but I've just learned that anytime I feel lonely, it's an opportunity.

You know, Ram Dass, I think said. Oh, I love Ram. Yeah. Like suffering is, all it's doing is showing you where you're stuck. Yeah. So anytime you're suffering and it's like, wow, that's such a nice, that's such a trick you where you're stuck. Yeah. So anytime you're suffering, and it's like, wow, that's such a nice, that's such a trick you can,

you know what I mean? If you can actually catch the moment of like, I'm suffering. Yeah. It's like, why? Right. And you're like, oh, I didn't, we didn't sell all the tickets. Yeah.

It's like, hold on a second. Let's go there. What does that actually mean? And you go down the rabbit hole of that and you're like, oh, yeah, whatever. I just want to be liked. And then you're like, oh, I can have compassion for something that wants to be liked. What would you say to your friend? You'd be like, oh, it's okay, bro. I love you, man. And do you love yourself? And he'd be like, well, they'd go, oh, not sure. Well, that's where you got to do the work then.

Why are we so afraid to give ourselves advice versus giving everyone else advice? Okay. I mean, who knows? But I've thought a lot about this. Come on, give it to me. Well, the human animal, which we are, is designed to survive.

Everything is designed to survive. Everything is designed to survive. Right. What seems to separate us from the rest of the animal kingdom is that we have this tremendously capable brain. So we have this level of brain capability that is off the charts compared with the other animals in terms of our communication skills and et cetera. Would you agree? I agree. Okay. So then you take that and you go, what's the means by which we have really been able to survive and get through, you know,

to this place we're at. And the main difference there is we cooperate and trade with each other. main difference there is we cooperate and trade with each other. We build upon each other's skill sets. So you don't need to know how to design the combustion engine because it's been invented. So now it just gets integrated

into the global sort of... Humanity is this kind of shared brain, if you will. So animals don't have that. I mean, I'm not a biologist and maybe somebody will point out the way I'm totally wrong about this. Or like a beaver.

Let's talk about a beaver building a dam with his people. Does one person know how to cut the inside? One person pushes it. Animals have highly complex, incredible systems of management and communication. I'm not saying they don't.

I'm just saying the human thing is we are a social being to the max. Versus, let's say, an animal that is not a pack animal. I mean, there are plenty of animals that are pack animals. There are plenty of animals that aren't. We are. We're a pack animal. It is tremendously

important for us to know that we are well esteemed by the community. Right. Because that equals survival in the Stone Age. You know what I'm saying? And that's why it's hard for humans to be alone. Yes. And it's also why

we are so socially freaked out if, oh my god, is my red shirt too red? What are they going to think of me? And you go, why do you care what they're going to think of me? And the Right. What are they going to think of me? And you go, why do you care what they're going to think of me? And the reason that what are they going to think of you is important is because in the stone age, if they didn't think that well of you,

you would be like left behind, which means you'd be like dead. Yeah. See? So it's not as simple as saying, Hey, don't care what other people think. It's like,

well, I'm, I have to, I'm wired to care care i have what you might call like a highly tuned sociometer so does everyone and maybe people with different kind of personality um uh situations we we call them like you know maybe they're on the spectrum or something as we say like oh they don't perceive the same level of social yeah awareness it's like sometimes that can be a superpower for someone because they don't perceive the same level of social awareness. It's like, sometimes that can be a superpower for someone

because they don't care as much about what people think of them. But often the people who are like the quote, kindest or whatever, they often have the greatest degree of social awareness and then they end up being hardest on themselves because they're so highly attuned to what people might think of them. Okay, so then that goes back to like, why is it so hard for us to extend compassion to ourselves versus others?

Yeah. And that's the reason is because your brain needs to make sure that whatever it needs to tell Andy Frasco to keep Andy Frasco alive and in line socially, it's going to tell him. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? That totally makes sense. And so it's like, Theo, you didn't play funky enough. You didn't get the thing right enough. The song's not. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? That totally makes sense. And so it's like, Theo,

you didn't play funky enough. You didn't get the thing right enough. The song's not good enough. A major, you've already done one in that key. It's like you can just, it's an endless insanity if you let the mind run the show. So what do you do to not let the mind run the show? Yeah, well, this is where I think

the ancient spiritual practices of meditation, cold water immersion, breath work. Yeah, yeah. I've gotten really into the Wim Hof Method. Yeah, yeah. Like ice baths? Yes, sir.

Shut the... Theo! Yeah, baby. Let's do it. No, that's my favorite. I'm getting to the point of people being like, all right, enough about the ice bath. I don't want to hear it anymore. Oh, really? Yeah.

I've done two retreats with Wim Hof in, in Europe and yeah, yeah. I'm really, I'm really, I'm really into it. Like, what were you going through to make you feel like you needed to like kind of

cleanse yourself through an ice bath? Well, I was just, you know, I had gone on a road trip. I, I got a van in California. i fell in love with a van when when this was in during covet and i i guess i was one of the early what kind of van i love

chevy g20 baby i love yeah you just lived in it 94 uh i lived in it for a little while i didn't i didn't like um build it out i just kept it as is because it's got this like gorgeous interior it's actually what's on the cover of my record is that van. Oh, really? You still have it? Oh, yeah. You still rock it? Hell yeah. That's my car, dude. That's my car, bro. I'll clap to that, actually. Save that money. Save that money, Big Daddy. Gotta have that van. So I got the van. I drove to Michigan and I was on a sort of a soul

searching trip and just trying to sink into the alone time and really like, you know, it didn't seem like music was going to come back at a certain point. Right. Maybe that sounds crazy to say. I thought that way too. It just felt like everything was dying and I just like, I rolled with it, you know, I was like, all right, it's all over. Okay. Now what? You know, and it was painful and I had to really like, I thought even if it isn't over, I'm going to just like go with this because it's going to

teach me something. And yeah, a friend of mine invited me to jump into a frozen lake one day, like, you know, and I, for two seconds and I was like, wow, I did it. And it was great. And then I felt really warm afterwards and I felt like super invigorated. And it's like, man, that's amazing. They, I said, they don't tell you about the warmth that comes afterwards. Like they don't tell you about that. And he's like, yeah, man, you know about Wim Hof? And I said, no. And he, then he started telling me about Wim Hof. And I said, no. And then he started telling me about Wim Hof and then I looked up a documentary on Wim. Which one should I listen,

watch? I watched the one of Vice, Vice did a little mini doc on him. At this point, there's a lot of, it's kind of all the rage, you know,

ice bathing. But yeah, Wim, Wim is a really inspiring guy with an amazing story and just started to occur to me that this ice bathing thing was really become, it was a way that people were really tapping into their inner power and finding access to their sort of self-love. And I mean,

uh, access to like their sort of self love. And I mean, it might sound trippy, but like the ice is, is love, man. It's really like, because you will,

because when you have to go into a situation where you are experiencing like primal fear, yeah, you, but it's controlled. You have to find a place where you accept this and the place that accepts this in you is the place that's much deeper than your mind and it's like andy you're gonna be okay yeah and when you hear your i don't even know what to call it it's not even yourself yourself is in your mind yeah the ego's in the mind This is like the you that's the universal awareness you.

Yeah, what do you think that is? That just goes like, Andy, you're going to be okay. And then you come out of the ice bath and like, all right, what the fuck

we got to do today? What do we got to do? We got to write a song? Right. Okay. I mean, it's hard. That's actually harder in a lot of ways,

but at least, hey, you write it. You go, what are you going to do? You go, be afraid of what someone's going to think of it. He's like,

well, I just survived the edge of death. So like, whatever. So to me, the ice bath is like a way to bring intimacy with fear, intimacy with death into your life. So you get rid of it? No, that's just so that it's not holding you back.

If you think about this initial question, like why are we so hard on ourselves? And we say, well, it's because it's a survival mechanism from the stone age. And then you go like, well, how is it serving me now? And you go like, well, it's no longer keeping me from getting cast out of the village because there's not really the same kind of village where it's like, if somebody doesn't like my song, I'm not going to get left behind to die. Right. So you used to think like that. You have that in your brain is that's the foundational die. Right. But you used to think like that. You have that in your brain as that's the foundational mechanism.

Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. It's like, and these tools we use, social media, it hijacks that mechanism and sells our insecurity back to us.

And that's why it's addictive. Yeah. It's not kind of addictive. It's completely addictive. You know, like Instagram is addictive I've said this before on a podcast I'm not even pointing fingers here

because we all use this technology but like it is my understanding that the people who founded Instagram were in Stanford's first addictive design course you know so like the shit works it's like oh do you have a human brain

yeah this works on you you know what i mean like oh i'm not so maybe there's 10 people who don't find it addictive you know like but it's like it's extremely addictive yeah and it's like so is so you know so are cigarettes for many people so is processed food so is success yeah there's like these are these are all um very predictable um phenomena that we see from just understanding the human the human motivation system true so so yeah i mean when it gets back to like how is my fear of of death serving me in 2023 socially, I think for the average person, it's like holding them back from living their truth, from doing what they want to do in life, from taking a risk.

You know, it's like, that's not serving you at all. So if the ice bath can like, sort of take you on a roller coaster past your fear and it's free. Yeah. Fucking do it. Fucking A, dude. I'm going to scream about it from the hilltops. It's the most tremendous thing I've ever discovered.

I don't know. I could be full of shit right now, but I remember you like, you know, it was like the idea of like you want like a be on a big label, be a big thing for your thing. And now like looking back now you have your own label. You started your own label.

Yeah. You're doing your own thing. You're not asking other, you're not relying on other people. Right. To, you know, the idea of what is success,

you know? Yeah, man. Like the idea of getting a label, getting a bus, you know, you're putting success in your own terms. Yeah,

man. I think, I think we have to, you know? I mean, you can, I mean, because you go out, you try your best to do the thing you set out to do, but a lot of times you don't really know what that is until you've done some stuff, right? So it's like you and I both had a dream as kids to be musicians, to play our songs in front of the world.

What does that mean? You know, well, at a certain point, you know, if somebody were to be like, Hey Andy, I, you know, my name's a so-and-so attorney, uh, press the button and I can put you in front of the world stage. If you're 15, you're going to do it. You don't know what that means. You know, and it might mean that you'll never own, you know, it might mean you're, you've, you've signed a contract of indentured servitude for the next for the rest of your life. You know what I mean? Who knows?

I'm not saying that's what all deals are because it's not. But you really need to go out there and find out what it even is that you want to do. And once you know what you want to do, if you've had enough experience to know what doesn't work or what doesn't feel right, then you can start just, just going for shit, you know?

So it's like, yeah, I want to have my own label, so I have my own label. What is it? It's a label. Well, what's a label?

It's a sticker. It's a label. You know what I'm saying? It's a little label. It's a little label you put on a guitar case. You know what I mean? It's a brand.

It's a sticker. It's like, is it going to grow into something? I think so because it's a set of values of musical values of artistic values. It's a principle thing. It's a network. It's me and my,

um, uh, my, my virtues that I, that I care about in music making that I want to, you know, create a place on the internet in the world to understand like the stuff that I work on,

you know, I think of it as organic, the certification. It's like, oh, that's organic? Okay, cool. I'll eat it. And this is like, oh, 10 good songs certified? Yeah, I'll listen to it. It's like, don't worry. It's a good album. We certified it for you.

So how hard was it to convince your managers this is the move? I don't have a manager. So you're doing it yourself. So there you go. Didn't have to convince nobody. Do you like it that way? I do, but I mean, Andy, you're one of the guys that it's impossible to not be completely honest with all the time. Come on, talk to me.

You know, buddy. I got you. So I've gotten to work with some really good people in that realm before and I felt like mainly I didn't really know what I wanted yet and now I have a much better vision and I have much more experience in the business

so I'm now kind of open to management really I feel like for the you know for the first time really you know in a real way so I'm having some conversations and kind of just like feeling stuff out yeah cause I don't you know, for the first time really, you know, in a real way. So I'm, I'm having some conversations and kind of just like feeling stuff out. Yeah. Cause I, I don't, I'm not against it. It's more just like, I needed to understand what I actually wanted to do so that I could give some direction

to say like, Hey, you know, this, this, and this, not only am I not interested, but it's going to like hurt my ability to make my best work. So like, you know what I mean? I need to be able to clearly articulate that to somebody if they're going to try to go get opportunities for me. You know what I mean? I didn't know what those things were until the last couple of years. So now I feel like I'm actually ready for it. And if in the future, it means that there's a label that I partner with, I'm not opposed to that either. I just want to make sure that I maintain my not only like my vision but also like you know this is a business

and it turns out ownership has a translation to your happiness it's not just money man it's like what happens if you you know make a hundred grand and give away 98 it feels bad turns it turns out.

You know what I mean? And it's like until you've had that experience, you don't, you know what I mean? You're just like, whatever, it's just money. It's not just money, it's your name, your values, and your blood, sweat, and tears. You know what I mean?

To me, my... And also, I come from the Wolf model. I come, if you know what I mean? So it's to me, my, my, um, and also I come from the Wolf model. I come from Jack's internet records. Yeah. And like, I, I've, I've been side by side. I've had a front row seat to that. So when people would be like, well, why are you trying to be indie? I'm like, well, I mean, Wolf, you know, did this and that. And they'd be like, yeah, but that's Wolfpack, man. And I'd go, yeah, but I'm in the band, man. Jesus Christ. You know what I mean?

But I get what they were saying. And to a certain extent, they're right. It's like Wolf is a once-in-a-lifetime kind of thing. It's a phenomenon and it's an amazing thing. But the model of success is there for anyone to do it. Yes. And I think the principles are sound. It's like if you're starting out in this business,

I think you should just go out there, do your best, and see what happens. Why not start indie? Start indie. You don't even know if your songs are any good or you don't even know if you can sell 10 tickets in your own hometown. Exactly. Like start indie.

I feel good about saying that to people, but I can understand now that if there's a, I have the door open in my mind to like, if there's the right kind of partnership where somebody says like, look, your music should be in these places and it isn't because you don't have anyone pitching to it. Right.

Well, I'm open to have someone doing that as long as they, as the deal is fair. You know what I mean? So I, I'm not, I'm not like opposed to it. I just,

when people would be like, have you ever considered a label? It's like, yeah. They're like, why aren't you on one? It's like, well,

I never got an offer. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, it was kind of like, it wasn't that I was against it. It was just like, well, I never got an offer. Yeah. You know what I mean? It was kind of like, it wasn't that I was against it. It was just like, nothing.

It's not there yet. And I'm, you know, doing like, I played the Wiltern last week and that sold out the Fremont. And, and,

you know, we just did the Ogden Theater in Denver and it's like, those rooms, those rooms are big and people are singing every word to every song and I don't have a manager and I don't have a label

so I wanted to get to this place first for yourself for myself yeah to know that you could do it without anyone yeah man

and I know I've been very lucky because I also have my other band Vulfpack and that's you know that has shown a tremendous light are you guys still doing stuff too right

oh yeah yeah yeah yeah it's it's uh there's always if you haven't heard anything from Wolf for a while, like be warned. There's always, there's something coming around the bend all the time, you know? But, um, but yeah, so.

Did you have to tell Jack to like, I need for my own personal mental being like, I need to have enough time for, I could do my thing too. Or has that always been given? Well, it's always been given. And I've reiterated it a few times, not because anybody else was confused about it, because I was confused about it. Isn't it crazy?

You feel like you're indebted to having to do all this time without splitting it? Well, it's like, yeah, I think it goes back to that thing we've been talking about, the theme of this episode. It's like our psychology and how that works, you know? And I... That's why the most important thing for me

is to have communication with the people I love and work with. It's like, if we're understood there, then like, you know, we can hold each other throughout the stresses and the meltdowns and the joys of this. Because there are many. I mean, you know that.

It's like, it's not easy to like, it's thrilling to like tour and, you know, do all these things. But it's, not only is it hard work, but it's like bizarrely triggering psychological work. Oh, yeah. You know, like the stuff we're talking about with the ego trap or feeling like...

By the way, another thing about that is that what happens if your esteem rises too high without your self-esteem rising? So the self-esteem is a result of your internal audience observing you doing the work. You know? That's why like when people... Hold on, say that again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Explain that to me again. Okay, so esteem versus self-esteem. Okay. Here's esteem. Esteem is Andy being like, hey, bro, I love your songs. Yeah. Oh, wow. If I get a song on the radio and everybody loves it and I get a thousand Facebook messages, we love your songs. Yeah. Oh wow, if I get a song on the radio and everybody loves it and I get a thousand Facebook messages,

oh we love your song. That's esteem, right? Okay. But if I didn't really write it, if I just sort of like sang it on my phone once and didn't really try,

Yeah. I might have a very big difference between the amount of esteem I'm getting and the amount of self-esteem I have over whether or not I'm a songwriter. You see? Got you. This is why the one hit wonder is a phenomenon. Is that somebody gets a band when they're 19, they write one song, it becomes a global smash, and it was the first song they ever wrote. Let's say that happened. There's no way in hell your

nervous system will feel that you are a songwriter. That's like taking one shot at the basket one day and winning the NBA championship. It's like, what? I can't play basketball? I got lucky. It's like the same analogy you said about the hunter. Exactly. So what happens when the esteem is too high is that you can only

either meet expectations of others or fail. Yeah. See, there's no exceeding it. only either meet expectations of others or fail. See, there's no exceeding it. If you're Michael Jordan and you've won three championships in a row, everybody just expects you to win. It's boring if you win.

Or, you can do what they don't expect, which is fail. There's no room for you to burst through people's expectations exceed them. That's why I went to baseball. There we go, baby. You said it, not me, but it's part of it.

I'm not going to tell them what Michael Jordan's going on in his brain, but that's a part of the thing. He goes to baseball. Everybody thinks he's a has-been. He comes back. They're like, whatever, MJ doesn't have it anymore. He's like, watch this. Then he's motivated again. You could look at that and say, oh, too bad. He's motivated by what other people think of him. It's like, well, that's what human brains are motivated by. Now, the trick is to learn that that's what's happening and then try to do your best to make

a decision to not let that run your life. Do you know what I'm saying? But you kind of, it does help to understand this motivation mechanism. And people are completely lost as to this. And I feel grateful that I've learned that this is, this feels to me very accurate as far as how human motivation works. Well, and you know, it kind of like brings it, you know, I'm sorry comparing your

career with Wolfpack's career, but like, you know, the idea of, you know, you guys blowing up with Wolfpack when it was kind of like Jack's baby versus is that the idea of self-esteem and esteem? You didn't feel like you had as much with that? Yeah. Also, I hope this is coming off as like there's nothing but love and respect.

100%. And I know that I've been a... Again, I can be more honest with you than the average person here. And luckily, we're broadcasting it to the world. But it's not even about like, fuck that. It's more of like

how your ego reacts to success. Exactly. So I know that I wrote Back Pocket with my friend Christine Huckle. And that's our biggest song. I know what I've contributed, I know what I've contributed. I know what I've sung on. I know Christmas in LA. I've done the, you know,

there's things I've contributed to and I understand that I'm a big part of the show and the whole thing. Um, but my nervous system in those years of calculating that success wasn't, it was, I wasn't spending those eight hours a day on that Jack was those were his eight hours and it's like I was spending eight hours on writing my songs

so to speak so for me it was just a confusing that was just part of the there was confusion there for a little while where I was like man yeah that was just part of the there was you know there was confusion there for a little while totally where i was like man yeah it was just it was just uh that was that was a challenge it also was amazing and beautiful and i'm grateful for it and it was tremendous and i met you know all these so many doors opened that ended up being like yo we love you theo like what

do you want to do oh and do oh wow we love your new record your solo record it's been nothing but the most positive thing possible but I had to realize that like when there was a lot of opportunity coming at Volf

it was sort of like we were drinking from a fire hose it was like a lot of as a band blows up, that's what happens. And so I had to kind of drop everything and tend to that and that was just like scary for a little while because it was like, what if I lose myself?

Did you ever become an asshole? I've been an asshole to myself. I don't think I've been an asshole to others generally. I guess you'd have to myself. I don't think I've been an asshole to others generally. I guess you'd have to ask other people. What would you consider being an asshole to yourself? Just being too hard on myself. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And if we're lucky, I think we all kind of burn out on that. Like the sort of toughness can be fuel, but in my life, it only goes so far. Like I've maxed out on the like, fuck you, Theo, you can do better. It's like, I can't really yell at myself in that way.

I have to just be like, hey man, would you like to do better? And it's like, yeah, okay. Well then wake up early, be sober, go in there, do your best. Yeah. You know what I mean? And really having the courage to sit down at the piano and perhaps come away with nothing. Yeah.

Is important. That's an important part of songwriting. It's an important part of any craft process. Was that the approach you took for this new record? Is just sitting down and waiting. Oh, yeah. You let go of that.

I let go of it, man. And you could fucking hear it in the tracks. I'm so glad to hear that because I felt like this is my best album. Yes. And it's not that the others aren't very good. I think they are actually great. And the songwriting is like impressive and whatever in some cases but i i this one is the one that's the most loving

because i was in the most loving place as myself and i think it kicks even more ass as a result so the idea that you need to beat yourself up in order to be like yeah it's not really overproduced either glad to hear that yeah i don't feel it is either at, it's not really overproduced either. Glad to hear that. Yeah. I don't feel it is either at all. It's very honest. Everything was done live. No headphones, one full take with no edits at all. What? Every single thing. No overdubs, nothing? No overdubs. Yes. Minimal overdubs, but no edits. So in other words, you know, full band performance from drums, lead vocal, whatever instrument I'm playing, and all keys and bass. Everything you hear is one complete take. It might've been take nine.

Jordan, Dart. So what, hold on. So what, where's that? You're putting out all those videos from that kind of like studio thing. Was that where you recorded it? Yes. What you're seeing in the video is the filmed full take of that exact audio that is on the album. Shut the fuck up. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Yeah, that was... Thanks, man. Are you for real?

I'm dead serious, bro. Yeah. And it's all on tape. Was that like the idea in the beginning? Yes. That was the concept. Okay. What made you think about this concept?

Okay. So glad you asked. So are we, you got time? Oh yeah, man. I love it. Um,

the, the concept there was that over the years I started noticing, like I really, I really tap into a different level of, um, commitment when I'm live. Yeah. Like shows, you know, like people will leave the shows different level of, um, commitment when I'm live. Yeah. Like shows,

you know, like people will leave the shows and be like, wow, man, you know, and I love the studio as well. And I love, I love recording,

love recording, nothing against the studio, but I noticed that I seem to be more potent live. So on my last record, modern Johnny sings songs in the Age of Vibe I I did three tracks

live band in the studio where we each were in a different isolated sound booth but we cut it live and I just noticed that those three songs, it was, You Could Be President, I Don't Want To Be A Billionaire,

and What Did You Mean When You Said Love? Those three were my favorites on the album. Right. And they also did the best on Spotify. Isn't that crazy? And so I was like, shit, maybe there's something here. Did you feel like that old record was a little overproduced,

the first one? Heartbreak Hits? I don't feel like it's overproduced, but I feel like it's a little chained in because I did that record to click playing the drums to everything first. So the first thing I did when making Heartbreak Hits is find a tempo and play a drum track

with nothing else in my ears. Like I recorded the drums for the whole album first and then made the rest of it. So point is, and I love that album. I think the songs are great. Great songs. And I think the production is appropriate for it. And my friend Tyler Duncan, who produced it, is a genius.

And I think he completely smashed it on that album. Out of the park. It's more that I did it via overdub. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is nothing against it. It's just a different way to do it. For me, I was like, wait a minute. I really want to try going all the way with this live and studio thing.

And then I found an engineer, Phil Weinrobe, out of New York, who was just really into that process. And he's like, that's my favorite way to work. And we talked a lot about it. And a producer friend of mine, um, James Henry Jr. Jr. Sorry. Who, um, he was on board for that too. And then it was like, I mean, once I was focused in on that as an, as a goal, I then, cause effectively, man, that's actually what Wolf has done. Okay. Wolf has done that, but Wolf has done the live in the room thing

with everything isolated because Jack does a lot of stuff direct. So he'll record bass direct into the board, right? Guitar direct into the board. Drums, one or two mics on the drums, kick snare, super close mic. So there's no bleed. And then you got Antoine on like a 58,

which is also like basically no bleed. You know, Super directional mic. The Volf thing is live in a room, but the tones are highly... Yeah. And the tones are able to be manipulated in the mix from Jackson.

And that's why it kicks ass. It's like this combination of live and studio. So I wanted to do the same thing, but because I had gotten good at that process via doing it with VOLV. So I thought I want to do that, but I want to do it like hyper intimate room picture and see, see what happens.

So it's in that case, like everyone is listening. There's no headphones. So it's all Omni mics and shit or what? It depends. Yeah. But we are fully embracing bleed so like the bleed is a character in the record where it's like those old sinatra records yes it's also like let it be yeah the beatles album you know what i'm saying it's also like those old beatles records like yeah like it's not just like oh this is some like sort of like uh records. Like, like it's not just like, Oh, this is some like, sort of like,

uh, yeah, it's not, it's not so old school that it's like, uh, I don't know. It's, it's not just a,

it's not just a jazz thing or, uh, um, what did it teach you? Well, it taught me like, first of all, you know,

you have to be, you have to listen on a way deeper level because you have to just like be listening to what's happening in the room. You also have to be utterly, you have to everything you have to commit. It's full commitment. Right. And you realize that like,

if I, like if Jordan hits the snare too hard and it's going to blow out my vocal mic. Right. You know what I mean? And if that's the vocal take. So you can hear everybody. Yeah.

This is awesome. Yeah. It's really cool, man. I highly recommend people recorded this way as a, I mean, in some ways it's like, you know,

more expensive on the front end because you have to get everybody in a room together. Yeah. more expensive on the front end because you have to get everybody in a room together. But what you get is you end up getting this very tangible, undeniable vibe

in the room where you're taking a picture, if you will, of the feeling. That's what a microphone does. It takes a picture of a feeling that was played through an instrument or a voice. You can't play really heavier stuff, right? Well, you'd have to have a little more isolation if you wanted drums,

if you wanted things to be very loud. But you can do things creatively with baffling, like putting a baffling for the drum. So I don't, I've only scratched the surface of this process. I'd like to push it to its limit, see if we could do a Foo Fighters record in the house, like that kind of thing. But those guys, I'm pretty sure they record that way too.

There's nothing against having isolation. What is important to me, what I learned to answer your question is for me, if I'm going to capture the most potent Theo Katzman, then I got to be doing it live. It doesn't matter if I'm in a booth live and there's ISO or whatever. That's fine. But capturing a performance is sort of the secret to me into uniqueness. Like in other words, man, if I take the mic out every day, right? And I put it up on the drums and I re-mic the drums. I'm going to get a new drum sound. I'm going to get a slightly, I'm going to be using my ears.

I'm going to be dialing in. How do I feel today? What's actually appropriate for the sound? I think I actually want it to be trashier because actually it's kind of a trashy sounding song. You know, like those are things that you end up being able to kind of like improvise with as you feel when you start to record as opposed to if you just take sampled everything and cut and paste it. So I'm not knocking that as I'm not saying you can't make great art that way.

Just for you to make the best art, you're talking about how to make the best art you can possibly make and you feel comfortable with. That's how you think you emulate the best of your abilities, right? Yes, exactly. And I felt like we got something timeless because you put the lens on capturing a performance.

It's sort of how like, have you ever listened to old jazz records like Oscar Peterson or stuff like, or Coltrane? It sounds completely contemporary. Have you noticed this? Totally. it sounds completely contemporary. Have you noticed this?

Totally. It's like the high fidelity jazz was like 20 years ahead of rock and roll. In terms of its actual crystal, beautiful, high fidelity recording to where like, you can't really date it. It's like, is this from today?

What is this? It's just like a great recording. Right. And so that was my goal is to do that. And I, I feel we accomplished that mission, you know? Yeah.

And the songwriting, just like you keep getting step up, step up, step up. Thanks, man. Bo knows this. I've listened to your song.

I want to be for some. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is so fun. It's just, it's my favorite song right now. I'm so glad to hear that,

bro. Yeah, dude. Thank you, man. The whole record's good, but I just think, I think you're, you, but I just think you're striking a chord. You're finding yourself.

Thanks, brother. And to hear that you're working on your mental health abilities and doing the whole ice bath thing, I'm stoked to fucking be rooting you on, bro. Thanks, brother. Man, me too for you, dude. Yeah, man. We got to kick it when we're in LA.

Anytime, man. How long is this tour? Thanks brother Man me too for you dude Yeah man We gotta We gotta kick it When we're in LA Anytime man So you have How long is this tour? The tour is Six weeks I think total So we'll go Till about mid-May Cool And we end in

Madison, Wisconsin But yeah For anybody listening You know It's the It's the band on the record Me Joe Dart

Jordan Rose on drums Joe's on bass obviously Yeah Dave McKay Who played keys on the record. Me, Joe Dart, Jordan Rose on drums, Joe's on bass, obviously. Yeah. Um, Dave McKay, who played keys on the record. Yeah.

Phenomenal keys player. And then, Paki Lundholm, who's a guitarist from Chicago, who's a tremendous guitar player. Yeah. And, you know,

Joe and Paki are singing BGVs, kicking ass. Oh, yeah. Um, it's really, it's really awesome. I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm just completely stoked. Man, Dart's working hard. We just played with him at GM Cruise with Fearless Flyers. Yeah, yeah. Just wild. I'm so thankful you have a dude like him to be your backbone.

Because he takes the ego out of it. He's there for you as a friend and as a musician. And I'm just, I'm ready to fucking see you take off, bro. I already see it happening. So, um,

it's going to be amazing. Um, so one last thing I want to ask you before you fly to Dallas, I love, I see even with a bus, you fly, you keep flying, take a day off.

I had to, I had to, I didn't sleep well the last couple days. And I was like, this is your world. One. Well, you got three shows in a row and sleep well the last couple days and I was like, we got three shows in a row and I had the Southwest points. I was like, all right, I'm just going to chill. I'm going to do this one. Decompress is the long road. Kick it with Frasco in the house.

I love that. When I got the email saying, you want to come over to the house? I'm like, let's fucking go. I love it. They built this house for Frasco. Built this city. They built this city for ketamineco. They built this city. They built this city for ketamine. Just kidding. All right. Goals. Everything's

in plan of how you want to see life. What do you want to be remembered by, Theo Katzman? Oh, man. Wow. All the way to the deathbed, eh? I mean, we've been talking about presents. Now we got to talk about the end. Yeah. It is the end of the show. Well, I guess I mean, we've been talking about presents. Now we've got to talk about the end. Yeah. It is the end of the show. Well, I guess

I would like to inspire people to really do the work they most feel called to do and really sit with their pain in that realm and be able to face the real shit for them.

So, like, if my music can inspire people to do that, shit for them. So like, if my music can inspire people to do that or my life, I mean, I have I'm interested in the Wim Hof method. I'm interested in other things that are not specifically music that I feel are healing. I'm really interested in like

healing. So I know that's a buzzword right now, but it's a buzzword for a reason. We all need a lot of healing out here. I agree. Especially after like three years of sitting in your couch and overthinking. Yeah, man. What's been going on that we were not suppressing for overworking and totally living life. Yeah. Yeah. We were not built for that. We were built to be in community with one another. And's like that's our design right you know that's our divine design if you will yeah and so um yeah as far as being remembered as somebody who lived in that lived a life that was that was oriented in that way that that works for me

i got you know to see my dad my father passed away in 2013 and uh he you know when he was when he was sick and at the hospital they like they gave him this thing to fill out which was like totally sort of funny on a level it was like anything you want to be remembered by is like a pamphlet i mean really yeah it was it was out you know because my dad we had our our own personal, just the family. Conversations. Yeah, we had many and it was like, that was profound and deep and life-affirming and I'll never forget those conversations.

So it was kind of funny to see him write some shit down because he was sort of like, what the hell is this? I've already told my family. Yeah, exactly. I've already told my family what I have to tell a hospital. But they said like, any of the words here,

what would you like to be remembered as? And he wrote, swell guy. I love that. Like which swell is such an old school word. Like he was a swell guy. You think your dad would be proud of you right now? I do, yeah.

He was very proud of me. And I mean, he... You know, my mom's been to some of these concerts, which is great. And I said, yeah. He was very proud of me. My mom's been to some of these concerts, which is great. Did your mom go to the garden? She did, yeah. Sick. She's been to some of the shows on this tour.

I was like, you think dad would like this? She was just like, oh my god, he'd be completely over the moon. My dad was a musician. A jazz musician? Jazz, trumpet player. He was in the Tonight Show band on the Carson show. completely over the moon, you know? Cause he, my dad was a musician and he was a jazz trumpet player. And he was in like, he was in the tonight show band on the Carson show and shit. He did like a lot of high level stuff. And, but he was, you know, he, he was, uh, a player. He w he was like a studio cat. He was, was not, um, as much of a artist in the sense of like putting his own work

out there. He did make some of his own music for sure, but he didn't spend a career going for that. I know he was so just blown away by me doing that. I feel him with me. I got him on my arm here.

Back of his bald head. I love it. Always thinking of him. Keep fighting yourself, buddy. I love it. Back of his bald head. I love it. Yeah. Always thinking of him. Yeah. Well, keep fighting yourself, buddy. Keep doing things that make you happy. Thanks, brother. Same for you, man.

Appreciate it. And you don't need a fucking manager. Unless he's the perfect manager. Thanks. Okay. Don't just rush in because you're getting more successful. Do you have one? I do.

But I feel you like yours. I love him. So that's good. I need a neurotic Jewish man. Yeah, yeah. Because I do. But I feel you like yours. I love them. So that's good. I need a neurotic Jewish man. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm neurotic too, but he's way more neurotic. Yeah, right. So it's good.

No, I mean, to me, just to put this out there to life and anyone listening, it's like I'm not opposed to that. I would like, I actually feel like now I'm sort of becoming more keenly aware of where I do need help

yeah so like for me it's about that it's about like hey can i get the help that i need if it's the right fit so i'm open to it and i think i would like to have that actually yep well go fuck them up out there yeah thanks brother i love you man love you theo thanks buddy frasco baby you tuned in to the world'saving Podcast with Andy Fresco. Thank you for listening to this episode. Produced by Andy Fresco, Joe Angelo and Chris Lawrence. We need you to help us save the world and spread the word. Please subscribe, rate the show, give us those crazy stars.

iTunes, Spotify, wherever you're picking this shit up. Follow us on Instagram at WorldSavingPodcast for more info and updates. Fresco's blogs and tour dates you'll find at andyfrescott.com and check our socials to see what's up next. Might be a video dance party, a showcase concert,

that crazy shit show or whatever springs to Andy's wicked brain. And after a year of keeping clean and playing safe, the band is back on tour. We thank our brand new talent booker, Mara Davis. We thank this week's guest, our co-host,

and all the fringy frenzies that help make this show great. Thank you all. And thank you for listening. Be your best, be safe, and we will be back next week. No animals were harmed in the making of this podcast. As far as we know, any similarity, instructional knowledge, facts or fake is purely coincidental.