Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 229: Kylie Miller (The Beaches) & Fred Pessaro

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

We're coming hot out the gates with our friend Ahri Findling's comprehensive guide to Guys to Go Gay For In 2023. Not to be missed. Also! A talk with the legend, Fred Pessaro from Creem Magazine to warm y'all up for our main event: An Interview Hour exclusive with Kylie Miller from an EXCEPTIONAL Canadian band, The Beaches! Their new single is hot and their live show is fire. Why not catch them in a town near you? www.thebeachesband.com Watch this episode streaming now!! Psyched to partner up with our buddies at Volume.com! Check out their roster of upcoming live events and on-demand shows to enrich that sweet life of yours. Call, leave a message, and tell us how you really feel: [phone]  Check out our new single, You Do You streaming on Spotify and Apple Music now! And while you're at it, give a big middle finger to the bigots in your life Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For more information on Andy Frasco, the band and/or the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com Check out our good friends that help us unwind and sleep easy while on the road and at home: dialedingummies.com Produced by Andy Frasco, Joe Angelhow, & Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: Ahri Findling Fred Pessaro

This is Ari Finling. Welcome to a new segment that we're calling Who I'd Go Gay For. Number one on my list of dudes I'd go gay for, Chris motherfucking Pine, talking about Captain Kirk with his gorgeous piercing blue eyes and gorgeous, gorgeous hair. I would drink his... Okay. He is insanely hot. It doesn't matter if he's fat, if he's skinny, he's literally hot in everything. He could be covered in blood and I'd still be like, do you want to fuck right now? Cause you're looking at me like you want to fuck me i would watch him fuck my grandma i would watch him have sex with uh with a with a dick with kim jong-un i'd watch him have sex that's how hot it is and i would just cover kim jong-un with my hand and watch chris pine just all right this has been the first edition of Who I'd Go Gay For, Chris Pine edition.

We're potheads. This is a little early for us. And we're on Mountain Time. All right, here we go. And we're on Mountain Time. And we're back. And we're back. Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast.

I'm Andy Frasco. How's your heads? How's your hearts? Are you staying out of trouble? Are you not letting the demons of a hangover or the demons of the fucking music industry get you down today, baby? Let demons in. We got a lot of bands who listen to this podcast. We felt like this is a necessary situation. This man, Fred. How you doing, Fred? Fred from Cream Magazine. I got to just show you this resume. This man is Mr. Fucking Hip, dude.

This guy. I know. I looked at his LinkedIn. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe how hip this man is. EIC for Vice Music. He worked at Revolver. He worked at Brooklyn Vegan, one of the hippest fucking places on the planet.

MTV, New York, Sirius XM, Time Out. I mean, you are Mr. Hip New York. Fred, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. I feel like there is no way in hell I'm living up to that, to that intro, but we'll see what I can do. What is hip? That's my first question. What is hip? What, what do you consider hip? How do you know when something's hip? How do you,

do you, yeah. Do you have like a bunch of just hipsters running around town, like little minions coming out there in New York, figuring out what's hip? Are you out there in the streets, Fred? No, I'm definitely out there in the streets. But what do I think is hip? It's things that I think that are cool that I haven't seen a thousand times already.

So originality is hip to you. Yes. Originality, originality, fun, keeping it interesting. That's it. What was the first thing you've seen in your life that was completely original? Completely original? God. First moment. Like, it could have been 13.

Yeah. I don't know. When I was a little kid, I was trying to decide what to be for Halloween. So I put on a Gene Simmons mask. Maybe that's what it is. I don't know. That's a tough question.

Let's go with that. But, you know, as a kid, I thought they were terrifying. Did you grow up in New York or what? No, I didn't. But I've been here since 1999. So were you here during, what was Peter Shapiro's old venue called? The one Lost Lands?

No The guy from the Brooklyn Bowl You know who I'm talking about Fred? You mean Wetlands? Wetlands Wetlands Reserve Yeah And Tribeca

Absolutely Did a lot of hit bands come out of Wetlands Or were you not into the jam band scene? Well it's funny you say that. Towards the end of the wetlands era, I was not really... I've always had some jam bands. I don't dislike any genre pretty much. Right.

But towards the end, when I moved here, that was like towards the end of the wetlands existing. And you know who I saw there? I didn't see any jam bands there. They had just every rapper was playing there. Oh, really? It's like Cervantes. Yeah, yeah. So I saw an early show with MF Doom.

Wow. Sick. MF Doom. Wow. Sick. I saw when the rapper Big L passed, they had this digging in the crates reunion with Fat Joe and Diamond D and all those guys, like Showbiz and AG. All those guys came together, and they did a tribute for them,

Gangstar Guys and all that. I saw a bunch of rap stuff there. I feel like there's a minute there where they were holding that down and then there's this other club called SOBs that kind of took that over. So in the 90s, what were the rooms that were

all like the really tastemaker places? Like was CBGBs, were they done by then? Well, if you're talking about in New York, I was actually in Atlanta in most of the 90s. Oh, you were in Atlanta. Yeah, for like half of the 90s and then DC for front half. But it was definitely like CB's.

It was definitely like places like Coney Island High. You know, like ABC in Rio. And like, I don't know. There's a whole bunch of different places there. Palladium, all kinds of places. I fuck with Atlanta, though. I love the Claremont Lounge, my man. Old titties.

Old tripart titties, dude. Oh, yeah. Blondie? Come on, man. You're right. Come on. But like, you know, like when you talk about original, that's why that place is, you know, people talk about that when they talk about original That's why that place is People talk about that

When they talk about Atlanta You got blondie old cougar titties Smashing beer bottles with their titties I don't think there's a difference Between what is hip And anything it is Music So how do you face

This new era of social media, new era of internet stars? What's your take on that? Do you think it's losing originality or do you think it's helping people with their success for originality? Well, I think it cuts just like everything everything cuts both ways man you know it's like there's so much you know like you can blame there's a lot of people who blame like like tiktok or like something like that for like the the direction that like a lot of music is going nowadays but like the fact of matter is it also blows up a whole bunch of bands right right you know and and then there's also like there's also some absolutely like terrible like you know like i would love to order a hit on these people

you know what i'm saying yeah like those people and then people that I absolutely adore and think to myself holy shit I wish they published twice or three times as much as they do right it cuts both ways I think but I think just being like it took me

I think anything's gonna have it's pluses and negatives I don't think I think the's going to have its pluses and negatives. I don't think... I think the only thing I see negatives in are some of the older formats and stuff like that. Some of the older social medias and some of the older things like that. That's where it just gets tired and boring and there's nothing interesting on it anymore. What about magazines? Do you think that's an older promotional format?

I mean, I love magazines. I love magazines. I mean, outside of the obvious, subscribe to CreamCream.com. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. It's a good deal. Besides the other magazines, CreamCream.com, please. Yeah, not wrong stone.

Besides the other magazines, creamcream.com, please. Yeah, not wrong stone. Besides, you know, like the obvious, you know, there's a lot of great magazines out there. And I feel like there's, you know, we all read stuff on our phones and all that. But let's be real. I mean, like, if you're like, let's say there's like a vanity. Great example, Vanity Fair. I still get Vanity Fair. I love that magazine.

Great magazine. You can't read a deep dive investigation, one of their specialties, on your phone. You're going to be looking at your phone phone forever and it's just not the format and you know a lot of times when you have a magazine it's just like you're talking about something and then it'll give a photo exhibit of what they're talking about sure right it's just much more enriching experience and i bet and like you know the then the argument is, oh, well, what about iPads and all of that? But the fact of the matter is I think there's something just so, it's more, to me, it's more personal. And it's more when it's in your hand like that.

It just feels realer. And I think everyone thinks that. I mean, despite any kind of popularity or anything like that, I think everyone kind of thinks, you know, whether it's you can look at the resurgence of kids buying tapes and records. And vinyls. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And even just buying the vinyl and throwing it on the shelf, which a lot of people do. Yeah, they don't even listen to that shit the vinyl and throwing it on the shelf, which a lot of people do.

Yeah, they don't even listen to that shit. They just put it on there to collect it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But they want to have it, and they want to hold it. And I think magazines are the same way. I agree. It's easier to get immersed in something that's tangible, right? So in general, I think that's why vinyl is just becoming like collecting art, too.

Totally. And I think the same thing in magazines is just becoming like collecting art too. Totally. And I think the same thing in magazine. Looking at how many people like still collect Playboys. Or old Rolling Stones or Premiere magazines. Yeah. The first time I, you know, I'll still try to beat off to some Playboy on a magazine. You know what I'm saying? Like I want that old school shit.

I went old. I'm analog as fuck, dog. But no, but it's so true I mean like If Why not I think like The only thing The only problem right

Is How much printing costs So like How are you like Making a company You know It seems like Print costs

For magazines Are so much more expensive How do you keep A magazine company going When print costs are costing more and more and less people are grabbing magazines?

I think it has to do with people realizing the only people who are here are the ones that want to be here. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Totally.

And so like, like, uh, the people who, who pay for the magazines and people who pay for the magazine, they know that we're going to deliver like, they know that I'm going to go all the way in. I'm going to deliver the best stuff that I can,

and I'm going to deliver it in the best format that I can. And like, um, I'm not, There's no reason to half-ass anything. If you're going to spend the money, then it should be a Cadillac. That's what we try to do. That's fucking awesome. I got a question. We talk about

your success and what bands you broke. Have you ever had any hot takes of bands that just didn't make it? That you thought were going to make it? Wow. It's a good question. You too? That I thought would make it.

You too. I thought they were going to make more money than us. Yeah, there's a little band called U2. I think they're from Ireland or Scotland or something. Yeah, I don't know. Just didn't take off. I don't know.

Over the years, there's been a bunch of bands. I'm trying to think of... Like one you put in a magazine, like say, this is the fucking band yeah wave of the future yeah yeah um hmm well uh I'm trying to or what about like a great question or what about one that blew up that you thought wasn't gonna make it and you're like i can't believe these guys are huge yeah well it's funny because uh yeah i i that's an easy one i figured that'd be easier like like the band that band the band turd style you didn't think they're gonna be big no no here's the deal is uh i first of all turns out like i want to see say 2016 yeah something like that um

they were like an offshoot of this band called uh trapped under ice which is like um um like i don't know if you guys know them but they're they they are one of the most influential um hardcore bands okay yeah from dc yeah no they're from uh baltimore oh okay that's right that's right yeah so i mean i thought they were great i thought that the records were cool but i never thought that they were gonna when i first heard them i was like man somebody really likes 311. That's funny. And then I thought they were sick. I saw their live show. They actually opened

for a legendary hardcore band called Chain of Strength, and I thought they were absolutely decimated. And I always thought they were great, and I always thought they would do big things, but I never thought that they'd be playing Madison Square Garden garden multiple nights with right with blink 182

you know what i'm saying yeah crazy especially because like bands like that just don't blow up like that like they used to you know what i mean in general right it's all artists it's all like solo artists what about um another example actually is uh one time i went to go see this indie this indie musician that i liked and uh i saw i saw her in this this basically this shitty punk diy space um and her name was uh japanese breakfast oh shit holy shit yeah and and i was like i was like oh yeah she's great she's awesome and i i related to her because uh also because i'm half korean and she's half korean and you know she obviously spins a spins a lot of yarns about you know growing up part korean and all that kind of stuff um so i was i was really into her and i was like this this is going to go somewhere, but I don't know how far.

And then obviously she wrote the book and then my mom's asking me about the book and all that kind of vibe. It's insane. Yeah, I feel like that'd be a tough situation to like, you're like, I don't know. I'm not a fan of these. You ever work for Paste? Before I talk shit. No, I'm work for Paste? Before I talk shit.

I'm familiar with Paste. Before I talk shit about Paste. Okay, cool. I've never talked shit about Paste. No, I'm going to talk shit about Paste. These people are so fucking mean. Is it part of their MO to just be...

Is honesty important? This guy's a piece of shit. I feel like they're more vendettive about their pub their journalism than a lot of other music reviewers do you like that in a music reviewer or do you do you like them being raw dog about it or do you want them to be more sugarcoat about it you know what? This is my answer to this. I believe that record reviews should be the exact same thing as you and I sitting at the bar. Talking shit. I like that. I like that.

Yeah, yeah. So you're going to be like, Fred, what do you think of that record? I could be like, it's a fucking piece of dog shit. Or I'll be like, oh, my like, it's a fucking piece of dog shit. Or I'll be like, oh my God, it was so great. I impregnated my wife because of it or whatever. Yeah.

Backstreet Boys was that good, actually. The first one, then they fell off before they sold out. I hear that. Sometimes we talk shit on our podcast so yeah might as well people talk shit about albums there is a line though where it goes from like honest critique to maybe jealousy or some sort of latent other thing you know what i mean it goes like i can see what you're saying about like some people go too far and they make

it more personal than just about yeah music. Yeah, and I think it's just like anything else, man. You meet some people at the bar and they just like to hear themselves talk. You know what I'm saying? And then there's some people who are like someone like my dad is a man of short

words. He's like, that sucked. I would love to read a whole music magazine where it's 800 two-word reviews. Not good like, that sucked. I would love to read a whole music magazine where it's 800 two-word reviews. Not good. It was good. The Boomer Dad music review magazine. I'm so fascinated.

We never really get a guy who's really deep in the scene. Your ball's deep in this shit right now, bud. Fred, this is great. Why don't Canadian's brands break as hard as in America? Everyone talks about all the Canadian bands

like, it's so fucking hard to break in America. It's so fucking hard. What's your take on that? Why aren't Canadian bands breaking? That's a great question. There's a lot of great bands from Canada, too. Because they're from fucking Canada, brother. America,

baby. Let's go. Maybe because you're military. It's because their military is weak. It's all that cheese curds. You know what's interesting though You know what's interesting about that

A lot of solo artists from Canada do blow up though Drake, Bryan Adams Celine Dion There's a lot of big solo artists from Canada But like hip, I'm talking hip I just interviewed the Beaches Have you heard of the Beaches, Fred? Yeah

Canadian band, I mean, they're cool. I mean, there's a bunch of bands like... Who are some Canadian bands that hit? Like, fucked up. Yeah. Like... Sum 41. But guess who?

They have that old... What is that thing? The Polaris Prize up there? Yeah. Oh, right. And they get grants. They get grants there? Yeah. And they get grants. They get grants for their music. They have grants.

There's that broken social scene thing there. And then there's like... I don't know. We're talking about communism here. We're talking about communism. But the good part, they give you money to make rock records. So what's your take on that?

Why do you think Canadian bands don't break? I don't know. I think that's a great idea. I think maybe it's maybe the Canadian sensibility is too chill. That makes sense. And Americans are too gonzo and psycho. Maybe they know they can still go to the doctor if they don't blow up. So they're like,

whatever, I'll be fine. I can still get the surgery. I don't need to sell 3,000 tickets a night to be able to afford my knee surgery. I don't need to sell

3,000 tickets a night to get healthcare. Exactly. So like, it's not, it's like Europe's kind of like that too. They're not as,

like in a good way, they're not as driven, you know what I mean? It's like probably the same thing. Yeah, but it feels not as driven. In a good way, they're not as driven. You know what I mean? It's probably the same thing. Yeah, but it feels like a lot of American bands, Canadian bands will go to Europe and they'll fucking blow up. Do you ever find any bands from Europe?

Parcel's a great example. You listen to Parcel? I'm not familiar with Parcel, no. They're like a French funk band. I'm in a band. We tour a bunch all around the other world and stuff it's just really fascinating what countries really react to american music so i was wondering if like like what's the new do we listen as americans listen to a lot of international

music like do you listen to a lot of international music and try to blow it up or is it absolutely absolutely i think it's just harder for a band a band to hit because you know people if they're international because they just don't they're just not out on the road as much right right but it's easier if you have a if you have like a banger track and then you're out on the road and people can see you then you know that's that's that's definitely going to that's definitely going to line everything up. I don't know. I think that's probably it. Yeah, as far as on the larger scale.

And then if you think about current rock bands that are stadium level, I mean, well, Arcade Fire, that's a Canadian band right there. That's true. Yeah. I got that from Montreal. Coldplay is one of them. There's not many of them left. Yeah. You too.

Yeah, like what's up? You too. Iron Maiden. Iron Maiden. Oh, where are they from? Oh, they are they from? Oh, they're British? I didn't know that, actually. So what about... So with all these things being said, how do you know when the band's starting to break?

What are the things? Does radio... Do we need radio? I talk to a lot of bands who are like, oh man, my label's pushing me on AAA radio and blah blah blah like do does does radio really matter anymore fred or where are you finding bands um i'm finding bands um out like when i when i go to when i go to shows when i talk to people i think the the answer to if abandoned is breaking is there's a series okay there's a series of

coincidences um aware like someone who if you know the band you know their style you know the kind of bands that they're in that are in their circle if you hear someone that's out of their circle talking about this band, and then it happens several times, that band's going to explode. Right. It's like when a great example is Turnstile. Obviously, like I was saying, I've been aware of that band for a long time. But when I started hearing about hearing the words turnstile from like a bunch of, you know, people who are just into like Belle and Sebastian. Right, right, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when it happens over and over and over, you're like, all all right something's bubbling here that you just know right you know a lot of the times the way that i the way that i uh the way that i tell is usually like there's a combination of just like management and like knowing who's who's like running a band and like yeah the team and and just the temperature on the band. And if the band's... Like I was saying, if a bunch of people that don't make any sense

are talking about a band, then they're on their way out. Yeah, yeah. Alright, I like that. A couple more. Man, we got a fucking... Like late night TV, if that even helps anybody. Yeah, does late night TV... No one gives anybody Yeah does late night TV No one gives a fuck About late night TV anymore right

I don't know I think it's I think it's a good look I mean who's gonna turn that down Right It's a resume builder But like tiny desks Tiny desks of the world

Are more important Would you say then I would feel I think so maybe I feel like I feel like i think so maybe i feel like i feel like that's the i think that's the interesting thing is like the nature of where we are it's like kind of like um you know you're watching you're watching late night but then there's a new late night the next night right right if you watch like let's just say for the sake of argument today's friday and and uh um you know spicy band x was on monday you know by the time you get to that monday show that

all those jokes are ice cold yeah yeah yeah you know yeah so it's kind of it's an interesting juxtaposition. So it's kind of like that and also like who goes back and watches old episodes? I don't even watch the current episodes. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, it's so true. I gotta get home. Fallon starts in five minutes. I've never heard anybody say that in like 15. I don't want to miss home. Fallon starts in five minutes. I've never heard anybody say that in 15. I don't want to miss headlines. What's your take on with ADD culture, with social media making everyone's

brains forget everything in 10 seconds? What's your take on singles versus albums? I've always been an album guy. I'm sure a lot of people are too i think the album is unfortunately i don't think i think it's the album is some like more of an art project now yeah you know i see i see uh i see singles as the painting and album as the gallery. Okay. You know?

I like that. The gallery, I'd say the gallery isn't quite as necessary as it was, but it is necessary if you're an artist and you want to tell a story. Right. You know? Right. So, musically speaking and kind of monetarily speaking, that's what we're talking about. Singles all the way.

But I think a lot of artists think in those, in their statements, and that's why albums exist. if you were to list in 2023 if you were to just be crass and just be about selling the record or selling the music then it would be about singles yeah I agree and like with the algorithm of Spotify they want you putting something out every 8 weeks

and stuff it's like a fucking rat race bullshit it's funny because you know If you're an artist And you put out an album I mean You're definitely shooting yourself in the foot

On an algorithm sense If you're not Sprinkling those guys out True So check out Andy's new album August 11th. Fred, have you ever... Have you ever had to...

You were like, you fucking hated this one band and you just had to bite your lip and put them on the cover because they're popular? You don't have to answer that. He's a nice guy 100 there there are a lot of bands like that yeah yeah it's crazy right well i wouldn't say that they're popular it would be because they're popular because i felt like they were yeah it's because they were going in the right direction or because they're popular yeah okay

yeah with that yeah does it piss you off thank god not with green but like with other things we've had i have a question so you said kiss was the first band you ever loved who was the first band you ever hated who was the first band that you were like, I hate this. Why is this popular? You know what? You know what, Ben? I hate, hate, hate, hate The Doors. Me too. Jim Morrison.

I hate Jim Morrison. Yes, I hate Jim Morrison. I think he's a jackass. Yes. I'm not a fan of their records. I think their records are like false idol bullshit I don't know you should start a church

I'd join it to get back to what you're saying to be honest with you the first band that I liked probably wasn't Kiss probably Pink Floyd oh hell yeah To be honest with you, the first band that I liked was probably, wasn't Kiss. Oh, okay. It was probably Pink Floyd. Oh, hell yeah.

That's originality. I mean, you're talking about being original. That band was one of one. It's funny because my dad was kind of like a, my dad was a rocker, right? And so when I was growing up, my dad would, my my dad was my dad would listen to a lot of like deep purple pink floyd yes sabbath aerosmith narrow nazareth all that kind of rainbow all that heavy stuff heavier stuff you know like before it was called heavy metal all that kind of stuff heavy metal all that kind of stuff um and um i told this story uh once before about like uh one of my earliest memories is i remember i was like a little kid i was with my dad it was

sunday and we always did laundry on sundays right and so it's like sunday morning and there's like this giant pile of laundry and i was quote unquote helping my dad with laundry as like a two or three-year-old you know how it is right sitting with them and i asked my dad to put on the kids song right and the kids song was i called it the kids song because it was another brick in the wall part two oh yeah where the kids are like we don't need no that I thought I called that the kids song

makes sense yeah and I remember I had this very distinct memory of like I'm sitting there with my dad he's folding laundry and I start singing we don't need no education right and my mom comes running down the stairs and I start singing We Don't Need No Education right? And my mom comes running down the stairs

and I was like, what are you teaching my kid? And now you're the editor of a rock magazine. Let's go. Well, thank God for that. But yeah, Fred, this has been great. I know you got to go. You got to find bands.

You got to get out in those streets and fucking go out there. Find Andy's band. Yeah, find my band, please, Fred. They're not hard to find, actually. They're not hard to find. We're whores in publicity. Yeah, I appreciate you guys having me on and all that. Yeah, it's just um i don't know i it's uh

you know we're really we're really stoked that cream has any kind of interest at all and like that people are people give a shit period i mean yeah you're you're ogs bro you're ogs i know but it's still humbling you know like you know like uh it's a lot of times you'll write these things and you'll put them out and it feels like you're in a vacuum yeah you know totally and uh and the only feedback that you get is uh you know it is from usually from ranting random people yeah and you don't know if you don't know if they're if they have an agenda or not. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right.

As opposed to, and then you get that, and then you get your mom, oh, Fred, that was so good. So you never have any idea if you're doing well or not. Sure. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's definitely working. It's fucked up because you're at a position

where you could help a lot of bands, and no one's going to tell you, honestly, if you... Did anyone just talk shit to you, Fred? Did anyone just say, Fred, you're a fucking piece of shit. Your music taste is fucking horrible. You're using commas wrong. There's a long list

of women that I'm sure... Let's go. That's okay. You're using the adjectives. Go get them, Fred. Are you guys hiring jazz writers? No, I'm just kidding. Well, Fred. Are you guys hiring jazz writers? No, I'm just kidding. Well, Fred, thanks for being on the show, man. Go check out Cream Magazine.

Oh, geez. We love it. We're here for you. We're here to support it. Tear down that Doors poster. Yeah, and tear down every fucking Doors poster you see in any of these fucking bands. It's a shitty apartment, okay? If you like the Doors past the age of 20, you're dumb.

Yes. 1000%. Oh my God. Enjoy the rest of your day, bud. And thanks for being on the show. I appreciate it. Take care. Thanks again, guys. Later, bud. Later, later, later. Oh man, that was fun.

Alright, enjoy the next interview. Let's do it. Ming mong. Yeah. All right. Sorry about, I forgot to talk about our, I was having so much fun with Fred. That was a fucking awesome interview. He was being honest and I love that. That, um, I forgot to talk about our sponsors before we get into Kylie from the beaches. Dialed in gummies. Go grab yourself some dialed in Gummies. Go grab yourself some Dialed and Gummies. They're great. They are from Colorado.

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Yes, volume.com, another sponsor of ours. If you want to watch this podcast, if you're like the type of guy or girl who, you know, likes everything visually, go to volume.com. All our podcasts are on there. There's, if you love music, tons of bands are doing live streams up there. They're stock pod. They got an archive for days. You could spend hours on that website, just listening to new bands or old bands or your favorite bands. And also if you're, if you're in a band, if you're a content creator, get your stuff on volume.com. It doesn't hurt to just have more content on the internet. That's all it is right now, people. We get lucky and have an A&R maybe

come to your show in New York, or we get out there and have him, you just send a link to these record labels now. And this is my show from last night. And boom, all of a sudden you're the next star. So get yourself on volume.com. Go to volume.com slash creator and get yourself on there. All right. We have Canadian band, The Beaches.

We just played with these girls in Buffalo and they are fucking rock stars. They got a big hit right now. Yo, Chris, play some Beaches while we pimp them out a little bit. I love them. I've been a fan with them. Joe, our producer, took me on, took me hip to them. Like, you got to check out Beaches.

You got to check out Beaches. I'm like, all right, I'll check out Beaches. And I listened. I'm like, damn, this is dope. So we got an interview with them. Kylie was awesome. She was really sweet. I mean, crazy life.

I mean, they're pop stars in Canada. I mean, they've been in the music scene since like 13. Pop stars working for like Disney bands and had their own big band in Canada. Huge following and they're like, I just want to do rock and roll now. So now they're in the beaches and it's killer. So I think you're going to love this interview. It took a second for us to get to know each other

but by the end, I think we finally got into some deep conversation. I think you're going to love it. Alright guys, Enjoy the beat. Hey, Kylie, how you doing? Hi, Andy. I'm good. How are you doing today? Are you in Toronto? Where are you at? I'm in Toronto. I'm at my apartment.

I've just been having a budget meeting with my manager and my tour manager. They're still here. What's a budget meeting like for beaches? Just a lot of numbers and then a lot of me not knowing. Want anything? Maybe just kind of filing and nodding and looking at Airbnbs online, to be honest with you. You guys about to go on tour? Yeah.

We're doing a US run. It starts in a couple of weeks. So we're just trying to plan some routing and book some hotels, all that. We're really excited, though. Yeah. I heard you grew up in a musical family. How is it like learning the music business versus just being an artist? What's the different parallel in your brain to try to figure that out? on your brain to try to figure that out oh well i mean i didn't really grow up in a musical family my sister is in the band with me so technically i guess you could say that um but i've had to learn a lot of how like the business is run and i think it just like that took a bit of a longer time um i think now that we're like independent we're an independent group, we have to be way more on top of all of that stuff. It took me a little bit of a long time to get the hang of it, to be honest with you. But now I really like knowing all this stuff.

I'm just kidding. Sorry. Yeah, knowledge is power, I think. Especially if you want to do this thing independently especially in 2023 where it's like we have to kind of be a jack of all trades does that growing up in Canada tell me about your upbringing

how was were you guys performing at a young age together or like did you go to private school? Give me the whole shabill. Because I'm just slowly learning about your band. I fell in love with your band like two months ago. And I don't know any backstory yet.

And I'd like to get, kind of get to know what's going on in the Miller family. Oh, that's so sweet. So my sister and I started playing guitar when we were like six and seven years old. She learned a year ahead of me because she's a year older than me. We grew up in this kind of like quiet suburban-ish neighborhood and there really wasn't like a ton to do. So my parents brought us to a music school where we met our now tour manager. We met our guitar teacher at the time and he kind of, you know, introduces to writing songs and stuff because we really were not good at practicing our scales and practicing our chords and stuff. And we were interested in writing and singing.

And so we got into it really quite early and we decided to form a band at like the age of 10 and from there we were kind of asking around like we were called done with dolls because we were kind of like in that pre-teen era so we were like done with dolls but like i guess ready for rock i don't really know it was kind of a stupid name and then we ended up asking one of our friends eliza if she wanted to be our drummer and she just so happened to have like a drum kit in her grandma's basement like down the street from our school and we ended up jamming one day and that's honestly how like the beaches technically formed because it is still jordan eliza and i in the band so we've been doing this

since we were like kids basically we actually had like a career at like in the canadian disney channel scene for a long time really like we almost had a TV show. Yeah, it was crazy. Our songs charted. We were like... At 10? 12? We were big. Like 13, 13, 14. But that's kind of when the career started and took off from there.

I'm a seasoned musician now. What's the difference between being famous in Canada versus being famous in america oh there's a huge difference i mean like you know we have this thing in canada which is called can con canadian content and basically the government regulates that 50 of all artists played on the radio have to be canadian yeah so you're basically given kind of like this have to be Canadian.

You're basically given this extra little helping hand. It's great for a lot of artists, but because of that, a lot of artists that are famous just do not transfer to the States. Guaranteed, our biggest bands in Canada, you would have never

heard of them. Probably not. Like who? No. Do you know who the Arkells are no they're like the most famous band here they play at like all the arenas and they they do have a following in the states too and they're like super lovely guys but i think it's just like a little bit harder for canadians to make it over and break break into the U.S. for that reason and the U.S. is also such a competitive market like there's so many more people and so there's so many more people in bands if that makes sense are you competitive uh we're very competitive that's

I think that we've been competitive since we were little. I mean, also, I think being in an all-female band, I think there's like a heightened level of competitiveness because we felt like we've always had to prove ourselves like that extra bit. So it's definitely something that we all kind of have. Like we're just like really hungry and really want to break into the US market. But yeah, I would say we're all competitive. So were your parents crazy stage parents or were they supportive? My dad... Both my parents were super supportive. My dad wasn't really necessarily a stage parent. He kind of helped us manage the business for a long time. And he still helps us with some of that stuff.

But he was kind of the guy who would run and deliver set lists and run and bring water and bring towels and just get so excited. And when we had shows, he would get so stressed that he wouldn't eat and stuff i think that yeah he he gets so like i think he gets nervous on show days and stuff which makes me nervous makes my sister nervous but i think he just likes it a lot he wants to definitely he can't wait to like i think manage a band one day, not our band, but another brand. You're like, fuck no,

not our band. No, no, no, no, no. Maybe someone else. What,

um, what values did you learn growing up in this like, kind of like Canadian Disney era that you're taking to, um, with a grain of salt with your new career? I think like we learned that it's really important to kind of trust your instincts at a young age and to always kind of like stick to your gut. Like your gut's really important.

If you have like a bad feeling about something and something like that, you're not sure that you're going to be happy with like how that's going to sound in like 10 years. Like just basically don't put it out. I think like going through that, it's really not good to like look back at something and be embarrassed of it. And I think after doing like the Disney thing, I'm not embarrassed of it,

but like, we just want to make music. I think that's like timeless and something that like we're not going to like look back at in 10 years and be like oh we shouldn't have done that you know i think that doing the disney thing was like really kind of eye-opening to that to like and also to realize like all of your peers like all of my disney peers i don't honestly i don't know what they're doing now like the career is was so short-lived and also another thing is like a lot of musicians just can't act and maybe shouldn't act and that

definitely was like true to us you weren't great actors and on the show did you look do you like look back and cringe oh I was terrible I was in I was in the movie Camp Rock 2 because they filmed it in Canada and they needed extras. And they needed specifically an extra. It was a girl who could play guitar. And I look back, I watched the movie sometimes and I'm like, oh my God, who let me do this? And the director at one point had to pull me aside and say, you look so sad. You're supposed to look happy.

He's like, that's just my face. I'm sorry not to laugh at that but that's fucked up so did you like did you have confidence issues growing up as a kid because people were like kind of like or did you always you were always confident that you were going to kick ass in life i was always pretty i was always confident when i got on stage and when i had my guitar it's just like in like i guess my social life and stuff i was always really shy um so and also doing something like like acting in a movie was definitely so out of my wheelhouse and i wasn't with my band to kind of help protect me i was on my own um so definitely i think it kind of just showed like how uncomfortable i was with the whole situation and also i was with like the the Jonas brothers who I was obsessed with.

So it's just trying to keep it all in and not let my excitement out. Did you have a nice balance between life and, and work? Sometimes it was like challenging, like in high school and stuff, especially I would basically spend a lot of my time in LA. We'd get signed to a record label when we were 16, and they would ship us out to LA. And we'd live there for a couple months, then come back to school.

And that was really weird because people wouldn't know where I went. And I didn't really want to have to explain it to everybody all the time. and know where I went and I didn't really want to have to explain it to everybody all the time um but I just kind of like honestly I kept like a small group of like core friends and then it was always fine with them and now honestly like at this stage I have like way more friends than I've ever had I think probably because I've been in Toronto like kind of staying in one place for like a little bit probably like the pandemic is like to thank for that because I was traveling so much where it was definitely hard to connect with people,

but being stuck in one place kind of gave me the opportunity to actually kind of like reach out to people, even if it was like via the internet or whatever, like Zoom hangs and whatnot. It just, it actually gave me some kind of like stability for a little bit so that definitely helped what'd you learn about yourself um you know like when we're being distracted through you know i i you know i i started working when i was 15 in the music industry

too so i never really knew myself until the pandemic what did you learn about yourself same yeah what'd you learn about yourself uh during, the same. Yeah. What'd you learn about yourself during those couple years in your house? I learned that I'm not very good at like sitting still. Yeah. I definitely like, I think I'm a pretty hyperactive person. So like I need to constantly be doing something like working on something with a band or like working out or cooking. Like I always kind of feel like i'm very go go go so

having like nothing to do and no distractions definitely was like maybe i have to get to know myself a little bit better um and that definitely was a bit of a trip but it also was probably because i don't think i hadn't had a break since I started when I was like 15, taking it really seriously. I don't think that I've been in one place for that period of time and had like the opportunity to just be with my family for that long and spend like a whole summer at home. Like that was the craziest thing.

Right. Yeah. And I got to really reconnect with my family, which was great. Cause I quarantined with them. So that was, it was really fun until it wasn't. And then. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you.

Yeah. And you get to see your family. It definitely was good. And you get to see your family outside of work. You know, you're saying like your dad's running around with your set list. Like he could actually be a dad again, you know? Yeah, exactly. like your dad's running around with your set list like he could actually be a dad again you know yeah exactly it was kind of like the first time that like i wasn't like it's like the band it was obviously still in the background but it was like the time that like i think our own personalities and things that we needed to like work on on our own actually we had time to like take care of those things. That's beautiful. What, um, it's so,

I'm so fascinated with this, uh, sister working together environment. You ever like just beat each other's ass? Like what? Like, it's like, you ever like, Oh, Oh, she always wins in any physical altercation. It's like actually insane. What's the worst blowout? What was the worst blowout what was the worst blowout uh we were on tour for like maybe a month five weeks or something it was our first major tour and i don't even know what we were arguing about i think we were arguing about like which which hotel which hotel chain is the best and i I said, like, one was the best. And she said another.

I think it was like the Marriott's or something. And for some reason, we were at a Marriott. And it was like the nicest room that we'd stayed at in a long time. And I was just like, oh, see, Jordan, this is like amazing. Like, look at all the amenities. And she picked me up and threw me. She tried to throw me on the bed but she got so strong from like loading all our gear out that she threw me and i hit the

wall i guess landed in the wall and did you like try to beat her ass or what no i just started crying are your parents on tour were your parents on tour with you or are you done with no no no no it was just like for the bandmates and our tour manager at the time and my dad's mercedes like suv from like 2005 so it really was pretty uh limited and i think it was just like one of those things where because we'd been on the road for so long, we're also tired and like spending such like in such close quarters that that's the one time I was like, but I will never try and fight her again after that. I know how strong she is. Now I learned my lesson. Well, let's clap for that.

We all learn. We all learn from growing pains. Yeah, seriously. What about like... I know. It's honestly really great working with my sister i love it like she's my best friend and i also i think that we have really just so much respect for each other we don't really have like a gallagher brothers vibe at all like it's just

really it's really fun working with her and it's like a very positive experience all around. I can't really say, I can't imagine doing it without her and I don't think that she can imagine doing it without me. So it's, it's just a part of like how I know this business, how I know the band and I wouldn't want it any other way. What about, uh, what about your relationship with Eliza? Eliza, Eliza and I, well, want it any other way what about uh what about your relationship with eliza eliza eliza and i well it's funny because she was jordan's best friend growing up and then she became my best

friend so for a while there was like tension between jordan and i fighting over who's supposed to with eliza i love it um i love it but But no, she's just like, honestly, she feels like one of my sisters too because we've both been there together watching each other grow up. We just did stupid shit all the time when we were kids. We smoked weed for the first time

together. We had all these really kind of big moments together where now I can't imagine like my life without her and Leandra, even though she was like the last to join the band, she, she came in and just like made it like such a fun,

like working environment. And she, she really handles like a lot of the stuff that the rest of us don't want to do. She runs the entire social media account. That's so much work. It's really nice having her also be so dedicated and hardworking and down to see this band succeed. Growing up being in a pop band and now doing this rock and roll thing, who are your inspirations that really inspired you to do this

badass, bad bitches type of vibe? Because I really love your vibe. It's really fucking... It's sweet. Thank you. I think... Sorry, I'm like... I'm my tour manager. I think we had a bunch of influences like the thing about the pop

band is that we weren't really like super passionate about the music that we were making so when we changed our name to the beaches and like kind of revamped our sound and everything we were like we want to try and make the music that we've been listening to and at the time it was like the strokes and like the killers and like a lot of like queens of the stone age also you know i love the pretenders i think that there's been like a bunch of different bands like through like the 90s and 70s that really we were all like really inspired by um i think that's kind of like what we aim to do. And then because like, we're all women,

people are just like immediately like, Oh, the runaways, but that's not really one, even though I do respect what they did. Right. Um, yeah,

I don't know. I think also the stones was a big one. I think like, we just wanted to like make music that we were listening to. And also that our parents like we're listening to make music that we were listening to and also that our parents were listening to a lot when we were kids. Right. So there's definitely some classic rock influences on the first record, at least for sure.

And why are people so easy to judge a book by its cover? You talk about, oh, they're girls, they're in the rock band, they're the runaways. Why are we so easy to judge like without even really getting to know people do you do that i i guess sometimes i do i think it's like easy as people to like put things in boxes like if you don't really if something's kind of like out of the norm or whatever to like just like find a box and put it in there and keep it as like a a a reference point. Like we normally get like the runaways or Haim because those are the two

like all female bands that they know. Right. And I guess Haim makes a little bit more sense, but I think especially like music industry people, that's like a big thing to like find boxes and put them in there. Yeah. Um, I think like nowadays,

I think that's changing a little bit and like shifting i don't find that that's happening as much um and there's like a lot of artists who are like helping that you know um but hopefully including us maybe making people kind of rethink like what an all-female like the fact that we're all female really shouldn't even have to do with anything about our music or our sound or anything doesn't really matter. Yeah. That's why I think it's so fucked up when you first said in the beginning, or like, just because you're a woman, a woman band, it's harder for you to fucking break through, which is bullshit. It's like stereotyping people just from their sex. Did you have to deal with that? Yeah, I mean, honestly, yeah.

At first, it was like crazy. We'd go and play a show, and we'd show up with our gear and stuff, and bouncers would say that the concert starts at 8 or whatever. Doors are at 8. You can come back then, even though we have all of our gear, and we're like, bitch, we're playing. Exactly. What the fuck? Like, like bitch we're playing exactly what the fuck but like bitch we're playing now but now it's it that luckily

doesn't happen as much and i think because there's more women in the rock and it's like the rock scene especially like you know toronto and i think like all over the world i think because that's we're seeing that more and more that's's not happening as much, but at first like breaking into it when we were like still in high school, definitely we experienced that a lot. Yeah. Did you ever like deal with like, I've had horror stories of like, you know, young girls signing record deals and just being abused not like sexually but physically abused you know deal though oh god no no no not for us i mean like it just was like i felt kind of like we

were in this period when we got our record deal where we were kind of just like going in circles a little bit i don't really know if we knew what we wanted to do with our music and we were also like still growing up. And I think that it was just a bit of like a stagnant period. We were working with different writers every day, but at the end of it, we were like, Oh,

we actually just like learned how to write songs from like the best of the best. And we just took those skills and honed, honed them in. And then we were able to like write our first record in that one, you know, got us on the map in Canada, got us our first,

like number one single in Canada helps like make our first headlining tour sell out. So I think without that time there, we wouldn't have, we wouldn't have gotten to where we are for sure. Was the label pissed that you, that you wanted to change your name and change your sound or did they was

totally about it no no they were kind of just like they understood that we wanted to do something different and that what they wanted us to do wasn't those things weren't aligning so it actually was like totally fine it was one of those

instances where it it actually was like totally fine. It was one of those instances where it, it actually was totally civil and no problem. We just ended up moving over to our Canadian label and having them take over the project who was like still technically affiliated with them. So it was fine. That's great. No horror stories. No,

I love some tea and I love some tea. I know. You know, you talk about the importance of I love some tea. I know. You know, you talk about the importance of mental health and awareness. I feel in a lot of your stuff. How do you prioritize your own mental health while on the road? That's a good question. I personally try and make sure that I get some sort of physical activity because I need that in order to feel like myself, I find that it's like the best thing for me to help clear my head.

So whether that be like going for a walk when you get to the venue or like working out in the shitty hotel gym, like something like that definitely is a big thing. But everybody else in the band has kind of like a different practice that they do to help with their mental health you know also like therapy on the road sometimes can be a thing but it's also a little bit challenging if you're in like a van with six people yeah like how do you yeah how do you be vulnerable about your sister when you're in a van sitting right next to her like yeah this is doing some crazy shit yeah yeah i think it's like really kind of try and

prioritize like your wellness like try and eat something healthy-ish once in a while try and like i can't i can't like party and drink as much as i i used to be able to like i think that like cutting back on that while doing like a big tour that's something that's like helped me um feel better like at least try and get through the whole thing that helps and yeah i think that everybody has their own kind of routine in terms of like staying mentally clear but for me it's like exercise at least a little bit if i can yeah and i i hear you on that you know i'm in a band we do 250 shows a year and i still need to take a step back and say no it's it's powerful to say no right how hard is it to say no yeah is it hard to say it's hard

it's hard for sure yeah i mean sometimes like you, there's some things where it's like, Oh, the money's too good. Or, you know, this it's definitely hard to kind of like make a call when it's like, ah, the mental health is going to suffer. But we, we try to like keep everything, you know, think about every decision that we like are going to make and try and make the best ones for the band and also for the audiences and the crew. Try and make sure everybody's happy in the band.

Yeah. I've listened to a lot of interviews and you guys speak a lot about social and political issues. How do you navigate that using your platform and to speak out in the public eye without trying to offend half your

fan base you know because a lot of people are um i mean i don't know i think it's just like if there's something that we feel really passionate about um we feel as a band that we have the responsibility to to speak out about it you know know we've. Developed this platform. And I think that people. Like expect that from us. And they know that we're going to kind of like. Speak from the heart. And talk about things that we care about. So it's not really.

I think yeah. We just kind of. Feel like if there's something that we need to say. We're going to say it. And we don't really worry about the backlash so much. And luckily i think like most of the time the fans are like totally down and also agree with what we're saying and if there are people who disagree it's like that's totally fine they're more than welcome to it's

like you know i i also don't think that we're like ever you know trying to be like like we're not definitely wouldn't say we're like a political like a band or anything like that like our music is mostly about like getting drunk and like having fun but like at the same time i think um yeah if you have a platform you definitely should use it when you feel like you need to right because i Because, I mean, you were pretty vocal about the LGBTQ representation in the music industry. So what do you think needs to happen to make that a reality? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, that's also my... Well, one of our bandmates is gay.

So that's definitely something that's very important to us. is gay. So that's definitely something that's like very important to us. Yeah. I think that there's just every, but there needs to be way more like inclusivity. Is that the right word? Yeah.

I don't know. I think that everybody just needs to be featured. Everyone needs to be given a voice and also be able to like, write about those things that they're going through. And it just like creates like better music in my opinion when there's more stuff and different kind of like people that you can go and listen to it just like makes it way more fun and way more interesting for everybody right and isn't that the reason why we're doing art to express ourselves we forget that shit we forget like um i'm so curious about these writing rooms when you were 16. What were you taught?

What are you talking about as a 16-year-old? Could you say you wanted to talk about one thing, but the writers didn't really want to talk about that, so let's talk about some bubble gum, sugar-coated. Yeah, and honestly, it depended. It was like whatever writer we were working with like sometimes they would take more in control and then we worked with people the good ones were the ones where they would tell us about something that's going on in your life even if it wasn't something like dramatic like a breakup or you know something bad it could just be about like a weird party that you went to and then

writing a song about that um but that's it honestly changed every single day every single session like there were some that were so painful like so yeah give me those give me that like yeah give me those i don't like there was something that was just like they were trying to make us write about like going to a party and like seeing things that we'd actually never seen like there was a lyric something like something so insane and also stuff that was just like you know maybe too sexual and things that really weren't like making sense to what we were actually experiencing at the time um but i mean those songs never came out yeah and like it's just it's kind of funny looking back even sometimes listening to them and being like oh god what could have been what could have been

like think about if you kept doing that and didn't put your foot down and say i want to play rock and roll yeah are you pretty uh yeah i mean i don't think that we would be a band if we kept doing that and didn't put your foot down and say, I want to play rock and roll. Yeah. Are you pretty, uh, yeah. I mean, I don't think that we would be a band if we kept doing that. It was kind of something that we all knew that we wanted to change that. And that's, that's really why it, uh, Oh, sorry. My boyfriend just got home. Oh, no worries. Sorry. No worries. We got home early. I was surprised. But yeah. What about, what was the breaking point to make you want to change your style and change

the band? Was it just like the last tour was just, you were just over it or what was it? No, we actually, we weren't even really touring. We were just kind of writing and make well i don't know i think it was a lot of it was that the girls jordan eliza just went to high school and we all went to a performing arts high school in toronto i think that they got bullied quite a bit for the kind of music that we were making wow they got made fun of that's not to say like it's the only reason why we switched our sound and everything i think it was more so like honestly we just really weren't

happy with it and at the end of the day if it's something that you're like embarrassed to show your peers or embarrassed to show anybody then you probably shouldn't be doing that kind of thing so i think it also was just like we grew up and we're like we want to it kind of like learning to form our own opinions and like knowing when to like actually like speak up about something and that's kind of it all just clicked at that time it was really clear that we wanted to make a change well i'm thankful you made a change because your new band or your new sound is fucking awesome And you guys gotta keep it going Oh thank you

You excited You guys are doing some big festivals this year You excited It's at Lollapalooza right You guys are doing Lollapalooza Yes We're doing Lollapalooza We're doing Boston Calling

We're so excited to be doing these US festivals Let's go That we dreamed about doing It's exciting I'm so excited Yeah You're really

You're breaking it I'm clapping for you This is exciting Let's fucking go Thank you And we'll see you at Cobblestone I'm so excited. You're breaking it? I'm clapping for you. This is exciting. Let's fucking go. Thank you. And we'll see you at Cobblestone. Yeah, we'll see you in Buffalo. Yeah, I'll let you go. I know you probably only have a couple days off

until you get out there. So when it's all said and done, what do you want the beaches to be remembered by? Honestly, I want us to be remembered by honestly i want us to be remembered by like how kick-ass our live show is like i think that we've been playing live since we were like 10 years old and honestly you can just see that when we're on the stage and i think we just really want to be remembered for being like a fun rock and roll group where you're gonna have like the most fun at the concert ever like that's really what we're trying to do we want to just like you know we're like a bunch of

girls who are best friends and we want all of our fans to feel that sense of like that they're welcome at our shows that they feel comfortable yeah we just want to kind of invite everybody into like our girl squad that's really and they don't have to be girls to come into the girl squad just like you want everybody in is it is it hard to navigate people other people's mental health when they like kind of like reach out to you and ask you for advice when you're preaching about mental health health um definitely sometimes uh but sometimes like you can comment on it but it's also hard because obviously we're not like therapists or anything like that but you know we're if the music helps in some way to make people feel better about anything if they can connect to a song or connect

to a lyric or anything we're really happy about that but yeah there's definitely a line where it's like on a personal level you don't really know what to do but we hope that our music if your music makes you feel good and like makes you feel better if it helps you get helps you get through a tough

that you're going through that's amazing yeah well keep fighting the good fight and we'll be rooting for you all the way through and have fun out there. Thanks, Kylie. Thanks, Andy. Yeah, nice to meet you. I'll see you in Buffalo in a couple months. No wait. We'll see you there. Bye.

Later, bud. You tuned in to the World's Health Podcast with Andy Fresco. Thank you for listening to this episode produced by Andy Fresco, Joe Angelo to this episode produced by Andy Fresco Joe Angelo and Chris Lawrence we need you to

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wherever you're picking this shit up follow us on Instagram at world saving podcast for more info and updates Fresco's blogs and

tour dates you'll find at andyfresco.com and check our socials to see what's up next. Might be a video dance party, a showcase concert, that crazy shit show, or whatever springs to Andy's wicked brain. And after a year of keeping clean and playing safe, the band is back on tour. We thank our brand new talent booker, Mara Davis.

We thank this week's guest, our co-host, and all the fringy frenzies that help make this show great. Thank you all. And thank you for listening. Be your best, be safe, and we will be back next week. No animals were harmed in the making of this podcast. As far as we know, any similarity, instructional knowledge, facts, or fake is purely coincidental.