Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 74: Round 2 w/ Caleb Hawley & Karina Rykman

Episode Date: February 18, 2020

Andy recaps his birthday week, including a savage, on-stage roasting from comedian Kyle Ayers. Meanwhile, the band revels in a taste of the high life: Chipotle. And on the Interview Hour, we welcome back incredible singer/songwriter and all around great-dude, Caleb Hawley! Caleb and Andy talk about owning your sadness and harnessing it for performance. Ahri reviews Andy's pro-wrestling aspirations. We close by catching up with the fabulously talented, Karina Rykman. This is EP 74... Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For more information on Andy Frasco, tour dates, the band and the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com The views discussed on this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of the guests. Check out Andy's newest single, "Keep on Keepin' On" on iTunes and Spotify Follow one of our all time favorites, Caleb Hawley at www.calebhawley.com Produced by Andy Frasco Joe Angelhow Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: Caleb Hawley Kyle Ayers Ahri Findling Arno Bakker 

Hey guys, it's Andy. How we doing today? We're going to start the show. My boy Kyle Ayers, they threw me a birthday roast. And I was surprised and it was amazing. And it's the funniest shit and they got me so good. I just want to start the show here. I know you probably already would listen to this if you follow my socials, but whoever doesn't, it's fucking great.

I hope you enjoy it. I you guys we're gonna we got a cake for him and we're gonna sing happy birthday to him when he comes back out here but what he doesn't what he doesn't know is we're also going to roast him um so i have written about 20 andy will be delivered to him on stage. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday dear Andy. Happy birthday to you. I love you, I love you, I love you. No, no, you. No, no, you're not done, no. Sit back down, sit back down.

No, you can hold on to it. Don't love Kananga. So I thought it'd be fun, since you're such a connoisseur of comedy, I thought I would write some roast jokes about you. Happy birthday, Andy Frasco. I love you very much. I got these from a few. Andy is a huge Lakers fan, and like most most Lakers fans doesn't live anywhere near Los Angeles.

Andy plays piano a lot like I tell jokes. Sort of, but very confidently. Alright. Andy, I love you. I love you like I love Bernie Sanders. You know I love Bernie Sanders. I love you. I love Bernie Sanders you know I love Bernie Sanders I love you you remind me a lot of Bernie you can rally people people love you I would even vote for you and honestly I'm worried about both of you being alive in four years someday soon Andy might be the first 32 year old to join the 27 You guys are like, oh, he ate mushrooms from a stranger the second he got up here. And you're like, where are these jokes coming from? Jesus fucking Christ. Andy looks like if Bob Ross' son let him down.

Andy looks like if Bob Ross's son let him down This man eats mushrooms like Super Mario, but he looks like Waluigi on a bender I'm pretty fucking good at comedy. Andy is a huge advocate for mental health awareness. Yay! That's the, yeah. He's willing to talk to anyone about it as long as you're a hot girl or you follow him on Instagram. Keep them coming! This is the best night of our lives! Oh, man.

Seriously though, it's been fun watching Andy's groupie's parents pick him up after the show. Someday Andy's dick might get nominated for a team choice award. That's so funny. That's so funny. I wrote that and I stood up in a van. I was so proud. That's so funny. I wrote that and I stood up in a van. I was so proud.

Oh, god damn it. Andy is so desperate for intimacy that he crowd surfs just to be touched. And I've known you for a long time, and I do love you dearly. You're one of my best friends. You maybe have helped save my life multiple times, and I think you know that. And while I've known you for a long time, there's people here who've known you even longer than I have. And a couple of guys in your band actually wrote a nice tune about you that they would like to play right now. So please give it up for Andy P. Favola and Sean Ackerman.

All right. Here we are. Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast. I'm Andy Frasco. How y'all doing today? Hope your heads are feeling good and hope you're fucking, you know, rocking the week.

It's Tuesday. It's Frasco Tuesday. I appreciate everyone rocking with us. But yeah, I'm here to tell you I am alive from my fucking birthday week. Jesus fucking Christ. Oh man, I drank like an asshole. Like just fuck, just fucking just tore my body up. I had so much fun this week.

The boys of Big Something and my band and everyone who gave us all this birthday love, I just can't thank you enough, man. I got roasted. I've always wanted to be roasted. I thought I was going to have to wait until I'm like 60 or 70 for these motherfuckers to get at me,

but they're getting at me while I'm still a degenerate. It was kind of like an intervention because it was so good. Shout out to Kyle. Thank you so much for that birthday, Rose. Shout out to everyone. My birthday was so special. It just meant so much to me.

32's a whatever age. It's not a thing to fucking celebrate. We're old now. Fuck. For the people who are like oh he's not old whatever i feel old i've been doing this shit for fucking 15 years uh fucking degenerate ass fucking living in a van style i'm actually recording this in a van in the parking lot while the boys are in chipotle um That's my life, you know? We're on our way to Woodstock, New York, or Buffalo.

I just wanted to recap for the week. We got a killer show. We got, it's a New York episode. Caleb Hawley round two. We talk about depression. We talk about suicide. We talk about a bunch of shit. And then we got Karina Reichman.

She's so sweet. Like a little sweet angel. Bass player who's fucking punk rock as fuck. So shout out to Karina. And shout out to Caleb for being on the show. But guys, my birthday, it was just insane. This whole Royal Rumble is just fucking batshit crazy. Shout out to the boys at Big Something.

We have one week left on the tour. This is the last week. We're playing Buffalo Tuesday. Ferndale, Michigan, or Detroit Wednesday, Columbus, Ohio, which is almost sold out on Thursday, Grand Rapids, Michigan, on Friday, and then Chicago is going to be a fucking barn burner because I'm pumped up about Chicago. We're playing Lincoln Hall. We sold 900 fucking tickets

at the Brooklyn Bowl for this fucking silly wrestling idea. It was just so fucking fun. Everyone was raging their face off. My publicist Kip was there. I did the Stern show. This is so fucking awesome.

It makes me think, don't fucking give up on your dreams dude i've been fucking grinding this shit out 15 years eating fucking mcdonald's and fucking peanut butter sandwiches just living on the road dedicated my fucking life to this and now to see, you know, all these dreams coming into fruition, it just gives, there's hope that there's, you could do this independently. That's what I'm saying. Now we're eating at Chipotle, baby. We moved up to the minor leagues, you know, from McDonald's to Chipotle. Started from the bottom, now we're kind of here or something. But shout out to Chipotle. Chipotle's good. But don't give up on your dreams, really. You fight for shit and you have these crazy ideas.

You're like, ah, no one's going to accept this crazy idea. No one's going to accept me for who I am. And the minute you become vulnerable and you become the person you exactly are and you realize no one's giving a fuck no one's judging you no one's thinking like the real people in your life the people that are just like fucking haters whatever they could suck it but you know the real people that you want in your life once you're authentic you don't have to hide you don't have to pretend to be someone else just to stay in a fucking lukewarm relationship or fucking you know being a band with people who don't give a fuck about you you got to make sure that you're authentic everyone's on the same page

because this life is fucking hard life is hard in general. We just had another guy in our scene die from a heroin overdose, Teddy. He was a Fayetteville, Arkansas guitar player, fought with addiction. Maybe he was just misunderstood. I keep thinking about why people get addicted to heroin. What's the deeper meaning of that? I guess it's a cool, not cool cool drug it's a feel-good drug i don't know i will never touch heroin because i have addicted personality that shit will fuck me up but like i don't like opiates in the first place i'm too sleepy on that shit dude i want to rock i want to walk i want to live i want to like

i don't want to just fucking chill on a couch be like ah what's up dude but shout out to anyone who likes that drug i mean not shout out don out. Don't fucking, don't overdose. God forbid you overdose. Look at the people surrounding you who loves you, you know? Think about them too because, you know, death doesn't, I feel like when we die, we don't feel death as much as our fucking, our people do, you know? You know, and seeing addictions and seeing people die over overdoses

when then your people that you had in your life's like fuck i wish i said something i wish i talked more to them about trying to get them help i wonder what they were suppressing why were they so sad you know all that stuff you know just don't be afraid to talk to people, man. Even if you feel like your friend is struggling, like, uh, I got a couple of guys in the band right now, we're kind of struggling hitting some walls and, you know, it made me realize, am I, do I know these guys? Do I talk, do I ask them about their feelings or do I ask about their feelings when they're already this low? You know, it's my fault. I'm fucking selfish. Sometimes I'm thinking about this business, thinking how to grow it, that I forget that these guys are my fucking best friends, so it's just, you know, you never know when it's your turn to leave,

so you might as well fucking have great conversations, have great 30 second birthday parties, you know, fuck dude, I ate so many mushrooms, they fed me a mushroom cake, guys, and a joint, and fucking airport-style Jamesons that they were passing around all day, shout out to Ithaca, crazy to have a birthday party in Ithaca, but it was tight, I respect the fuck out of you, thanks for letting me, these vagabond fucking people rolling to your town, fucking high as shit but um you know i'll leave it short for here it's opening segment we got a long episode i just want to say thank you so much for everyone who um gave me birthday wishes who fucking who are loving the new single

hope you guys are digging the new single keep on keeping on listen to it on the streaming if you haven't um we're getting so much love for that and i fucking love y'all dude you know i'm here for you and you know if it takes music or if it takes this podcast or just takes being a friend you know i want to be here for you guys so shout out to you hope you had the fucking kick-ass week um we're taking a week off after this because it's the end of the month. But the boys and I from Big Something, because we had

such a hoot, me and Todd Glass, doing a podcast with the Mushrooms. We might just have all the boys on our last day off. And we're all just going to set up recordings to the podcast machine and just get high and fucking go through the ringer because Ben's never taken mushrooms

the drummer big something and the other guys are curious about how I'm still rocking you know when I microdose so much so we might do a fucking mushroom bonus podcast but we'll see how our livers

take after we have five shows in a row this royal rumble we're fucking going through tables i hope you guys if you guys want to watch a preview if the tour is not going to your town we just posted a live stream of the fucking madness that we did at brooklyn bull you watch it is i'm bringing it to the west coast so we're gonna i think i'm trying to get this tour on the west Coast in October so the whole country can see this thing because right now it's only the Midwest and the Southeast

and the Northeast who get to see it I'll make it happen Pacific Northwest because it's so fun this tour is so fun it's one of the best times of my life really I've been on so many tours but this tour has been one of the best ones so shout out to Big Something

and shout out to my band and shout out to Kyle Ayers and shout out to everyone just having an open mind on this tour. All right, guys, we're going to go to Caleb Hawley, round two, my favorite songwriter. He's the best. All right. Enjoy. I'll talk to you soon. you soon. All right. Next up on the interview hour, we have round two with Caleb Hawley, one of my favorite songwriters. I had to get another round with him because he's very special to me. And he's probably one of my favorite songwriters besides John Craigie and whatnot, and I love him. Chris, play some Caleb Holly while I pimp him out. New York songwriter from Minnesota.

Wrote a song with Corey Wong on his new record. He's just so fucking talented, and if I can help promote him any way I can, I'm going to. So ladies and gentlemen, listen to this interview. It opens up about depression, opens up about how hard it is to be in this industry and how we just got to keep fighting. All right, guys, enjoy.

I love you when you're away Don't you want somebody, somebody like me? Don't you want somebody to make you your breakfast? Talking over coffee in the living room. Walking over coffee in the living room Don't you want somebody to watch all your favorite shows, yeah baby Don't you want somebody, somebody like me And as the world keeps spinning, we'll keep living by each other Bye. We pass on through this life It's you and I You and I You and I

You and I You and I Don't you want somebody to figure you out? Finishing your words before they leave your mouth Somebody told you to at the end of the day Oh, don't you want somebody Somebody like me And we're live again.

Round two. Back at it. With Caleb Hawley. Oh, yeah. What's the word on the street, dude? Word's on the street since I've been's it on the street? Where are we? Explain this place to us. Right now, we're in Harlem in my studio, which is a storage unit converted into a...

It was a little tiny space that I had, and then another spot that was bigger opened up, so I've been doing a lot of video. We're currently sitting in the green screen section of the studio. So basically, you work from a storage So basically you work from a storage space. We're from a storage space. How is that? What's the vibe like out here in Harlem? The vibe in Harlem, you know, it's...

Are people doing shit like this? Are you the only one crazy enough to live in a fucking storage space? I can tell you. I found a corner. I think about this a lot because I found... This is a corner of a building that is on the corner of an island i'm literally in i'm like as far away from people as i can get in new york city sometimes i wonder why i live in this place actually because

i'm just uh very isolated but do you need that to write music um No. I mean, honestly, I ended up in this corner because they gave me a good deal on the spot. No, but you're in a storage unit. It's cheap. It's quiet. There's not a lot of people around. I mean, I don't get why more people don't do this because this is a brilliant idea.

You know, the thing is, it wasn't even an idea. It just sort of happened. Basically, there was an artist studio downstairs that was all spaces for different Harlem artists. And they even had Harlem CrossFit. So they had a bunch of different things. That ended up turning back into a school, which it originally was. And so as soon as it became a school, I had to move my shit really quick. I had, like, I don't know, like a few days to hurry up and move stuff. So I moved into a little storage unit and then I was sitting there

and I had this little corner like where I could just sit and that was it. And I was doing some music there and I was like, this works because, you know, being married in a one bedroom apartment, like I just, I definitely needed space that i can get away and do things on my on my own uh and so that's just really how it came to be in the first place and now that i've been here for like five years the guys they know me here because i'm i'm the only musician here and only person really doing anything like this and uh so it's just gradually, like, trust has been built, and they gave me this nice bigger space, and they just kind of let me do my thing,

even though there's literally a sign that says, none of these are to be used for anything other than storage. That's cool that they trust you. It's important, though. Like, what did Harlem teach you about being a musician? Oh, man, it's just, it's, I think it's a lot of- Growing up, where are you from again? Minneapolis, essentially.

Twin Cities. I grew up a little bit in, I always say Minnesota, a little bit of Fargo in there. And yeah, Harlem, you know, it's just, I think it's the same as a lot of New York, which you just feel a lot of hustle and you feel a lot of uh pressure to get shit done and that was i feel like naturally my personality so now it's just amplified and then you add coffee on top of that and i'm just a psycho because you're sober right yeah but i mean i use coffee to get fucked up so yeah but so like what what do you like about the hustle because i know we talk about i talk to you about you know

jealousy in the music industry and how we see our peers who are pop more popular than us and sometimes we even if we don't get it we'll still feel this angst and this hustle do you learn anything from living in new york now 13 years from going from Midwest, everyone is super sweet and nice to this type of hustle. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that New York is a good place for me, like for my soul. I don't know that it's made me a better person. Is it a good place for anybody? Actually, probably not.

I don't think it, I mean. Explain that. It's full of, I think, largely selfish people that come out for a purpose. Like, you know, they were a big fish and a small pound, and then they cut, so they're like, you know, you found out you have this skill of some sort, and then you come out here, and you're going to make something happen with that, but then it's harder, and then you start looking at all the other people who are, you know,

make you question yourself and and uh you know and and and it's tough yeah drain your mental health oh absolutely i mean it's it's impossible to know if i would have i mean when i was in minnesota like i i started taking antidepressants when i was like 13 or 14 so i mean you know i i don't think that it was necessarily new york city that made me antidepressants were you taking took prozac prozac back in the day and since when I was like 13 or 14. So, I mean, you know, I don't think that it was necessarily New York City that made me... What antidepressants were you taking? I took Prozac.

Prozac. Yeah, back in the day. And then... How big of a dose? I don't even know. I don't know. It was a long... Yeah, it was just...

What did that make you feel? I honestly didn't think it made... I didn't think it did anything. But then one time, my wife now, girlfriend at the time, we've been together since high school, she came in and I was practicing guitar,

as I always did in the band room. And she came in and just saw, and I looked up, and my eyes, there was a certain emptiness that she saw. And so she thought it took away certain certain elements of my personality and i think that that has played into why i haven't ever gone back on to meds not that exact same story but that that concept of just uh you know um i actually even though i don't enjoy the battle of depression and whatever issues i have from day to day is um i don't enjoy the battle of depression and whatever issues I have from day to day is,

um, I don't enjoy it in the moment, but a lot of times it produces songs and, and I feel like that's kind of what I'm here for. Um, what about like, what's the lowest point in your life? Oh,

geez. I, uh, 30. Yeah. 30. Why? What happened? Um, um i just you know i i i got into a place where i just felt like i couldn't tell anyone i wasn't honest about anything in my life and so then essentially that was just me why were you being being honest? Well, why wasn't I being honest was because I was afraid about, you know, I had become someone that I never thought I would be.

Growing up very religious and kind of black and white with things, that was the way I grew up. And so when I, but then I started getting interested in the shit that I thought I would never do. And then I started doing that stuff, shit that I thought I would never do. And then I started doing that stuff. And then I didn't want to tell anyone because then, A, you know, I... You were in marriage? Yeah.

It's not even about my image. I just didn't want to be looked at as the hypocrite that I was and have to look into that, A. And then, B, just, like, have to change. Also, like, I didn't want to stop doing the shit i was doing at the time so and as soon as i what were you doing i mean just like just miscellaneous bad shit yeah miscellaneous we'll we'll we'll put it there for now you know i mean you know uh yeah just i mean whatever just things that i mean mainly what it stemmed from is dishonesty because whatever if

you're on the same page with whatever your group or click is if you're on the same page and all agreeing to be doing whatever i mean then i it's it's okay in your little club you know but within my club that i came from i was not really adhering to that and and uh what club was it uh just you know my my club is my is my family essentially you know so i thought you're talking about like your musician group or something no so like your wolf pack it felt like you're like do you think it was like a call out for help because your music career wasn't getting as successful as you thought it'd be yeah i think all those i think that without realizing it i was getting very lonely.

Because I toured solo for many years. First time we met, I was playing solo. Yeah. And I, you know, I've been playing with the band for probably six or seven years. But for the first five years, it was just me solo. And I thought I loved it. I was like traveling around trying to be like my hero

at the time, Martin Sexton. And I was like traveling around trying to be like my hero at the time Martin Sexton and I was like yeah this is great but I don't think I realized the toll it was taking on me is that like every day it was like in my car by myself for hours then I'd play a show then I'd go sleep in my car by myself

granted I wasn't I you know was in a marriage at this point which i'm still in and like and uh you know so obviously i could call my wife and all that stuff but like it was just i'm still lonely it doesn't matter how what kind of friends you have yeah when you're on the road like that you're it's like stand-up comedians i deal with this oh i bet yeah because they travel by themselves they stay in their hotel room for three days. And they basically do their two shows,

go back to the hotel, binge watch Netflix or whatever it is. It gets them through the day. It's hard, man. Why do you think we put ourselves through this solo because it's easier? I think it's where

we're looking for I mean, it's easier? I don't know. I think it's where we're looking for this. I mean, it's a dream, you know, that I think a lot of us were sold as kids growing up in America. I know that I was, or at least I was, remember, I was always told, like, every kid a winner every day. These are the slogans I grew up. Every kid a winner every day. Be anything you want to be.

You know, like, that's the shit I was sold. And so now then it just felt like okay well I'm gonna do that because it's possible I can do anything I want you know and then uh you know 10 years later you're like oh shit that's not true like and then and then that's disheartening that's like that's like you know being sold a lie and believe in it. And then you feel all sorts of feelings after it. And, and I mean, and you think that's our generation?

Cause we didn't have to fight for anything. Our parents basically told us we could do whatever we want. And when life gets hard, we don't understand hard times. So maybe that's when we do have hard times, we don't understand it it very well could be yeah i mean it's true i mean you know i think about the things that i complain about whereas like you know like what do you generations well i'm thinking like generations before me like

had to or even now people that have to go fight in a war or something like that it's like my life my problems seem so insignificant. Like, it's just, it's stupid. But at the same time, even though it is stupid, it's also like, it's what I know and it's relevant, like to myself, to my own story. So it's like, you know, we can compare ourselves to people in any sort of way. It never really works because if I'm comparing myself to, you know, the musician who's doing everything that I want to be doing or if I'm comparing myself to someone who has a miserable life and I'm like, oh, I should be happy.

Regardless, I don't know what it's like to be either of those people. So it's kind of worthless to compare. So why do we still get sad about our life? If you have this great analyzation of like, I shouldn't feel this way, why do we still feel that way? Okay, well, okay. I think about this a lot, and my answer changes a lot because I've never landed on anything. But right now, I feel like where I'm at in this moment

is I think that I don't want to lose sadness because I'm afraid that I'll lose most of the songs I've written. It's a fear of like, how am I going to... A, I hate happy songs, to be honest. I respect them because I'm like, damn, that's hard to do, to write a non-cheesy happy song. If you can do that, props. But I also am normally not moved by them,

mainly because I don't feel them as super real. Because you're sad. Yeah, but I don't want to leave that because I think I'm afraid that if I leave the sadness that I won't, that my material will be stagnant. Yeah, but why are we always worrying about our material? Don't we have to live to write?

Yeah, I think that... So you've just been living in sadness so you could write sad songs, Caleb? That's what I'm trying to understand. No, I mean, I honestly, yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of true. I mean, so you're dedicated. In a way, that's sort of true. So you're dedicating... In a way, that's fucking beautiful.

Because you're dedicating your life for your art. Sure. What about the people around you? Yeah, it's not easy for them. And in the same way, it's not easy for me. It's not. And I'm not trying to be on a high horse, like, oh, this is hard shit. Because it's also kind of not a choice.

It's like. You felt like you were born sad? No, it's just like I felt like I. It's also like. It's just what something, what it is, the universe, whatever you want to call it, seems to be telling me to do. You know, it's just. It's what I feel like I need to do right now. And like, you know, when I've had, I've had certain experiences, like I became a dad two months ago.

Yeah, we'll talk about that. Congratulations. Thank you. And, and, and so I had a couple of days right after having her where I'm staring in her eyes and I'm like, whoa, life has changed. The same type of thing when I've had a life-changing psychedelic experience. You have these eye-opening things where I'm like, my life has changed. But then it's – and all of a sudden I'm like, there's no need to be sad about anything. But then it comes back without you know, without fail.

I've only had, we've only, I've only had it for two and a half months, you know? And, and I mean, I had someone ask me the other day, like, how is that? Has that changed your writing? Or I had people say like, I can't wait to see how your writing changes after you have this baby. And, and I was, and I, I was excited to see too. And, but I, so far I was excited and also nervous. Cause I was also nervous because I was like, well, I'm not trying to become something else necessarily. Are you afraid of change?

No, otherwise I wouldn't have had a kid. Well, that's different. Yeah, yeah. For your art. Yeah, I mean, I suppose. Change is scary. What makes it it scary what's scary of it are you scared just not knowing no i'm not i'm not really scared of that but i'm just not knowing just the unknown you know it's like when when is that not at least a little bit scary you know

totally but like are you like holding on For dear life to this Past sadness that you're like Oh my god I've written so many good songs You're such a good songwriter and I can tell Like when you're fucking sad Those are my favorite songs Like what's that song Let a Little Love In Yeah

Were you sad then When I wrote that Actually that song about you That song is, that, that is a pretty universal, universal feel good love song. Um,

that, uh, the lyrics are sad, dog. Yeah, they are. And I think about that sometimes because I was trying to write

an uplifting song and they came out negative. What song? What are the lyrics? What are the lyrics? Uh, love's not the way that you're talking at me.

It's all, they're all negative. It's not, love's not the way you're talking at lyrics? Love's not the way that you're talking at me. They're all negative. It's not. Love's not the way you're talking at me. It's not the way you make me feel. It's not the way that you criticize me, whatever. You go right back and do it again. It's like, and then the chorus comes in.

I don't want to be a fighter. I'd rather be a friend. Can we get a little higher? Let a little love in. But it's so funny because all the verses, I've thought about this before because I always thought of that as being a positive song and then one time someone was gonna place it for like a tv show and then like actually can you change the verses because the verses are too negative i was like shit even my positive song's negative well that's just

but what i'm trying to figure out where this is rooting from are you jealous oh yeah i'm i'm i i deal with envy you know like what what makes you envy i just i think a lot of it roots from that from that american dream and then you and then you feel like you failed your american dream so far why and in fact yes i know i have absolutely i failed my my american childhood dream what was it what was this idea um you gotta talk about this i mean yeah yeah yeah i i think that i envisioned okay for instance like i like i just i mentioned him a few minutes ago but a guy i grew up watching do you know martin sexton have you ever yeah i am ryan montbluth uh he's basically like has sexton's produced a bunch of his tracks yeah so i was a massive fan and i just would every year

he'd come back to minneapolis and i'd see it and the crowd would grow. And I just thought, I saw that and I was like, oh, that's what I can do. And I remember he played this place called the Cedar Cultural Center in Minneapolis. And I was like, I'm going to be doing that. And I always envisioned myself, I was going to be proposing to my wife when I was 22, playing the Cedars. Why, because you met her when? We had been together since we were, well, we met when we were 15, got married when we were 21. But I imagine that disc to go that fast.

Like I imagine by 21, I'll be playing the Cedar Cultural Center just like my hero Martin Sexton, which is like a, I don't know, maybe it's like a 600-cap sellout. And instead, I was playing maybe in Pittsburgh. Yeah, I actually did propose to her at a show through music, but it wasn't a show because I wasn't even playing shows. It was just a random ass open mic in Nashville. And it was a beautiful night and everything, but it just was like...

Explain it. What happened? Oh, I mean, I just knew I had always envisioned I wanted to propose through a song and i had taken this randy newman song and added a verse to it and that's what ended up happening but like i always envisioned doing it from the stage and um at your own show at my own show you know yeah not i don't know not i don't know mike do you in your uh in your heart in brain, do you feel like that proposal was a failure? No, no, no, no. I mean, I wouldn't go.

Not the aspect of proposing itself, but your big dream was to have your own show sold out in front of your fans. Yeah, yeah. It's not even like that moment was the dream. It's just that's where I envisioned. That's the benchmark that I had kind of envisioned for myself at 21 so you thought you were going to be successful at 21 yeah but which is also

totally stupid because I was in college and I didn't even start playing shows until I was 22 so you know also like I'm kind of an idiot you know like no I mean like cocky yeah yeah sure of an idiot you know like I mean no I mean like cocky yeah yeah

sure sure yeah an idiot yeah so I mean some had some sort of you know I think we all need some sort of

delusions in this you know alright so go back to this idea of you thinking that you've failed so far because I don't

it's such bullshit I don't think so. But we'll talk about that in a second. Keep going with this. So 22 years old, when was the first idea of the dream that you wanted to be a songwriter? Yada, yada.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely had a little confusion where I didn't know exactly on the path that I wanted to go. But as far as what I wanted to do with music. But right when I got to New York, I was 21, and I started immediately just booking shows. I just was like, okay, I'm going to book a tour for myself.

And so I would just do it with literally zero knowledge, zero vision, and most importantly, zero connections. Like, I don't know anybody in the music business or anything. And that's what I've come to learn is essentially everything. Explain your first year of New York. My first year in New York. I got here. I was working at Star Sucks.

And I think, like like I started actually I was touring I started touring then and I would be covering shifts I had to work there to have health insurance and I would like tour and be a barista and I would work at like random Starbucks all over the

all over the country wherever I would play gigs they could do that? you could do that? yeah I would just call. And that was essential. They could do that? You could do that? Yeah, I would just call ahead and be like, hey, can I get a shift? I got to keep my 20 hours up so I can have health insurance. Holy shit. I didn't know that.

Yeah. So you were hustling through the country. Yep. And working at Starbucks in all these, like, what, small markets? Yeah. I mean, I was just playing wherever you know i was just looking at like just being like oh okay let's go to pittsburgh and then what's three hours from there let's go to columbus then let's go to indiana and then along the way it's like first i would set up the tour and then i would after that i would call the starbucks and be like yo

can i pick up a shift i'm going to be there and i mean it wouldn't it wouldn't always work out but but a lot of them said sure yeah okay so during this point of adventuring because you're basically a explorer right now because this is a new territory yeah were you sad here no i was totally clueless and excited yeah yeah it's not i don't think i had any cynicism like Like I was, I was, what'd you love about that year of your life? Um, honestly,

if I could play for, I didn't, it, it didn't even matter who was there. Like it didn't matter if I was playing for, I was just excited, genuinely just excited to play for three people as I was for 30. And I'm only going to go up to 30 because that's probably about the max I hit.

But it was fun. Yeah. And you learned how to be a frontman. You're a fucking amazing frontman. Yeah. I mean, I had been doing that. I mean, I did music and stuff when I was in high school and I had a band. I kind of stopped in college for a little bit. And then when I got back in.

That's so weird because you went to Berkeley. I know. It was stupid. Why? Why did I go to Berkeley no why did you stop while you're at music school

because I wanted to become like I wanted to get like really proficient at guitar and so like I'd rather than rather than hanging

out and talking to people I was like locking myself in my room practicing and it were you sad then?

I don't think so. No. I think I was, you know, I don't know. This is... We're getting into some deep therapy here, you know? It's like I don't... Hard to figure out when that came back necessarily because like I said, I know that I felt it in high school.

With the sadness? Yeah. What sadness? I don't know. I think it was just, I just remember, I remember being in health class and looking at all, learning about the symptoms of depression. And I was like, oh, wow, I have every single one of these. And I went home and talked to my parents and they were like, all right, cool.

They were like, all right, let's bring you to a doctor of some sort. So we went and then I was diagnosed with Tourette's, obsessive compulsive disorder, and depression. And I don't really, I mean, I say that almost as a joke well i mean i i mean i i definitely had some had and have some some ticks but like nothing like um nothing that was um nothing that's not fun like i actually kind of enjoy it and nothing not like when people think of tourettes they think of someone yelling like swearing really loud randomly and And that's apparently not the case. It's apparently if you have like seven or more tics, you have Tourette's. And so that's what ended up putting me on this medication. And apparently my obsessive-compulsive tendencies were getting me obsessed

with these depressive thoughts, negative thoughts, which were making me depressed. And to be honest, I don't really believe it. What were you obsessed about? I don't really... What were you obsessed about? No, what the doctor was saying is that I was getting obsessed with negative thoughts, essentially.

And those were just... I couldn't get my head out of them. It was just spiraling there. You know, I say that, but also, like, to this day, like, I don't fully believe that. Like, I don't, you know, like, I don't think of myself as having Tourette's. I don't think of myself as, I know I have some tendencies,

just like a lot of people have weird tics. Were you always sad when you were a kid, kid? I mean, it started in high school, you know. And then, but I, you know. And here's the thing. My last album is called, this isn't even a pitch, it's amazing. But it's called Sad People. And I wasn't even trying to do that shit.

I know. And it's because I honestly felt like I wanted to make a case for it. Because I feel like right now, everything is so self-help. Like you look around, it's like the self-help industry is like billions of dollars and whatever. And it's kind of annoying to me. And of course it'd be annoying to me as someone who who's sad who yes of course right and so maybe if i get happy then i'll be all but the thing is is i also i also love self-help because i because i've like i get stuff out of it i'm like oh yeah oh

yeah that's right because it's like anyone who's you know sad i mean i'm not saying that happy people don't do this but like and you're trying to figure shit out to try to I feel like you overthink things you philosophize you try to get to some answers or something um and uh and so yeah I don't know I just felt like I want to do something that was the opposite of that because I was so annoyed by it and and uh you know I mean the album didn't do very well so i guess you know i guess it's like people didn't want to hear the sad shit but that's okay no because you could blame that on 20 million 20 million bands out there and just haven't figured out how to market sadness because the songs are real like your lyrics are real and you know you know, I'll be honest, when I first hear the record, I'm like, damn, is he okay?

It is halftime at the Andy Fresco interview hour. Welcome back to Rider Review. As always, I'm your host, Ari Finling. I am looking at the new rider for Andy Fresco and the UN's tour with Big Something, and it is pretty fucking weird. Let's get into it. Number one, 13 spandex singlets. Number two, eight luchador masks. Number three, 44 packs of razor blades. Number four, three breakaway tables.

Number five, four tins of creatine. Number six, 130 blood capsule packs. Number seven, seven metal chairs. Number eight, four complete cycles of HGH. Number nine, a one gallon tub of Vaseline. And number 10, 13 cases of monster energy drinks. Guys, this is not the fucking rider for a goddamn rock band tour. This is a wrestling writer.

What are you guys doing? Are you literally just putting on a wrestling show across the country? This has been Writer Review with Ari Finlay. Go see Andy Frasco in the UN and Big Something on tour. I don't know what the fuck they're doing. What's important to you Caleb clearly this dream and the business side of it is of it is you know clearly it is on a certain level that I that I have to constantly fight because it's like you know like when I talk about it enough, I can see that it's dumb.

You know, I really can. But it takes a while. So it's like, so I know that that is important to me, even though sometimes I don't want it to be. But also. Is finding happiness important to you or no? So there's, I'm not, the reason why I'm not, I won't fully say yes to that because I just, I think that it's just, to just live a happy life is like living in LA when it's just sunny, you know? It's like you, you want, I mean, so you want different seasons to experience, to have different

experiences. And, um, and so, yeah, so I'm, I mean, it might be nice to have a little bit more happiness, be content a little bit more often than I am. And I think what also, there's another fear that just came to me behind that, and that's that sadness and lack of content really pushes me. It really pushes me. Oh, so it's a driver. It fuels you. Yeah. So sadness fuels you. Oh, so it's a driver. It fuels you.

Yeah. So sadness fuels you. I think so. What does it fuel? I mean, it fuels me to... Write more sad songs? I guess if I can write it, maybe that's me trying to get to happiness somehow

if I can write... I mean, I'm not saying that sadness drives I should say not being content that drives me because I can't imagine if I was content it would be hard to

want to do anything I mean you know just watching Netflix for three days straight, like you said earlier, like that's the shit. That sounds awesome. You can't do that. That's not in our DNA.

So, yeah. Because you're like, honestly, I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. You're the most talented guy I know. Thanks, man. Hands down. Singing-wise, songwriter-wise, I respect you so fucking much. Wow. And you're just like, you deserve the fucking world.

And I don't want you to be fucking pessimistic about the music industry because you see your friends getting successful before you are. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, neither do I. And I know it sounds like some bullshit stuff but it's just like also it's just the you know just it's the comparison man let me let me uh do you ever play uh songs on your show yeah yeah we're gonna play a song all right that's what i

was gonna tell you at the end of the show oh cool yeah so like when we're done with recording okay we'll have a song to close it i got i got i got the song that i that i feel like has most recently been written about this whole idea what is it called it's it's called tell me what it's like to have a dream come true fuck yeah i'm so i was gonna ask you to play this song dude i saw this on the instagram and i'm really this is perfect okay so we'll talk about that in a second. I want to hear what this song means to you. What does this mean to you? Is this a sad song?

Yeah. About what? Well, it's about the person who watches their friends and the people that they were in the car with. We were driving together, and I watch them have all the success in the world and then here i am still driving my same car you know type type thing like and so me staying on the plateau level as they've all gone and climbed mountains and so that's you know the dream essentially and it's and it's and so it's basically just the question tell me what it's like to have a dream come true you know if i never know i have a dream okay so do you think you you don't think you've had any dreams come true i don't think my biggest my number one dream what

is it it's just a certain amount of the ability to be able to go to like 10 to 20 markets and play Bowery ballrooms and not be fucking terrified that no one's going to show up the stress of a tour is hardly even worth it for me anymore because it's like I'm terrified because I'm like

because I have no way of knowing if there's going to be it's not consistent enough for me like I don't have enough of a fan base to know that like oh if I play this 200 cap room I'm absolutely going to sell it out and so I'm terrified because I'm like

when 10 people show up I've gotten to a point now doing this for 12, 13 years where if I there's so much pressure on me. I feel, A, I feel like an idiot. Like I'm just like, for the few people that are there, they're oftentimes wondering like, wow, am I doing the right thing?

I mean, where's everybody? You know, I just feel embarrassed. I feel weird because I'm with my band and I'm like, sorry guys. Sorry it's not a better audience. I know you guys tour with with my band and I'm like, sorry guys, sorry it's not a better audience. I know you guys tour with all these other guys that are crushed. Then I lose a lot of money. I think, oh, I could be now, I think, oh, I could be home with my newborn daughter, you know? I think all these things. So it's a lot of pressure. I want these shows to succeed. And so it's hardly, and so if I could get to that place where I've just got 20 markets where I know I can, you know, 20 times a year I can go and I can just have sold out shows, 500 cap rooms. That's been my dream for about 10 years. what's the difference between this idea and that moment when you're in the van

at 21 to say the mystery, the same mystery. You had that same mystery when you're booking and you're happy about it. You know what? There's no difference. Like we're playing, you're playing music for yourself don't put so much pressure on yourself bro like you're always thinking about others

yeah too like that's not going to give the best art you know you even you just said it these songs are for you dog i know but you know i'm i'm going into that space because you asked me the questions i'm answering i'm answering question. I'm not saying that in this moment I feel that way. That's what's interesting to me about talking about sadness and why oftentimes I've stopped going to therapy because I'll go and I'll be like, I'm feeling great right now. I should stop.

So right now I feel like a lot of this conversation, I don't mean to make it sound like bullshit, but has been sort of theoretical because I've had a day of creating music that I've been happy with. I've been hanging out with you a couple hours. It's been a fun day, other than getting pulled over.

I know, that's sad. So it's like, I'm in a good place right now. So right now, it's like i'm i'm in a i'm i'm in a good place right now so right now it's like if we if i was talking from the place that i write these sad songs or that i'm you know or that i am if i was having a rough day or a rough time rough week whatever like this podcast would would sound a lot different i would probably be talking a lot slower. I'd probably, you know, I probably wouldn't have as many even answers because it just would be, I would be depressed.

Whereas right now I feel pretty good. Yeah, and I think, I think commentating about sadness doesn't mean you're fucking sad. You just understand sadness. Oh yeah. And that's fine too. Yeah.

Like I understand sadness and I talk about's fine too yeah like i understand sadness and i talk about it all the time and i sometimes i have to fake optimism you know because like you said before like like the fake happiness yeah and i i was drying myself out because i was just when i was super sad i had this persona that i had to be fucking smiling all the time, you know, and it fucked me up. And like, I'm a human too. And it's okay.

I mean, this is why we're doing this podcast. I don't want to fucking talk to bubbly ass people all the time, dude. I want to talk to my friends who are, who are all struggling. We're all fucking struggling. I wish I was more successful than I was.

Yeah. I am now. Yeah. You know, I look at my friends, see some of my friends do play in these huge rooms. I'm I was more successful than I was, than I am now. You know, I look at my friends, see some of my friends play in these huge rooms. I'm like, you know,

my ego is like, I'm just as good as that. I'm just as talented as an entertainer. Why am I not? You know, and then I start thinking like, why am I judging my happiness on other people's lives? Like,

we got to like focus on ourselves like i want to get back to that point where like when we were 20 yeah and every new adventure every fucking new restaurant yeah we went to fucking buttfuck indiana for it was delicious i mean i was gonna think at that point like we weren't so exposed to other people's success which is like right now we're just, because of what social media has done, and there's becoming a sore topic, but it's so true is that you see it all the time. It's like fucking just how I delete the apps often

because they never make me. You delete the social media apps a lot? Oh, yeah, and then I bring them back because I'm like, oh, yeah, I got to do something. It's like I feel this pressure like, oh, I got to do something. I got to. It's like I feel this pressure like, oh, I got to post something because I got to. I want people to come to the show, blah, blah, blah, you know? Yeah.

And so, but I don't think. I mean, I'm just saying, obviously, those have their place and they can be good things. But the hard part about them is that we were constantly like when I was 21, i didn't have a clue what anyone else was doing because i didn't have i mean i had my space but like you know i wasn't that it just wasn't it will it wasn't as easy to see like you think you'd put it in your face do you think uh if you're in the music industry in the 90s where there was like kind of like it's just like you don't know well hopefully we get a record deal or you know like or hopefully people show up to the shows and you don't see all the growth of all these other bands that are going through your thing do you think you'd be happier in your career um yeah i mean my guess would be yes but i also have to imagine that there was just a different version of social media back then.

I don't know what it was cause I wasn't doing it then, but like, you know, envy and, and you know, the want for something else has always existed. I think. Do you think ignorance is happiness?

Oh, in a lot of ways. Yeah. because i was so ignorant when i was 21 like i remember being i remember i remember being 18 i remember this conversation because i look back on it and i think what the hell i remember saying i just i wouldn't i remember talking to some girl and i'm saying you know I just wouldn't change anything about myself. I've been there. Dude, I remember saying that.

And I just, now I look back on it. I was like, God, I wonder what she thought. That sounded so cocky. We're not looking back. Now at how old are you?

30, 30-ish, 34. Now what would you change about yourself? I think I would take a chill pill you know I think that I could I would try to clear out some space

you know I'm my plate is stays pretty full and that's not because of anyone other than myself you know like I you know, so if I could take just a little bit of that away, I think that would be nice.

I was talking to my therapist about this. I told him when I am not doing anything, I'm depressed. Mm, yeah. What about you? Is it because you're- I'm trying to think about not do, oh. Like when you're completely not doing anything. Okay about not do, Oh, well, okay. Okay. So,

so I just, yeah, the reason why I love it is because it's bringing me to, because at first I was like, well, shit, I can't remember the last time I was doing anything. And now I remember it.

It's anytime I'm on a family vacation. And I, and I, I, this scares me to say, because I love my family. So I, but I just, when I'm cooped up in a place and I feel like I'm just kind of chilling,

like I'm just existing with the family, all that. But I oftentimes, after two or three days, I'm really itching to get out because I get very depressed. Excess? Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a mix of anxiety as well. What's making you depressed? It's just not doing anything. It's just like we're just chilling. But I have to say, that's why I'm so amazed at people that just will like,

in Harlem, people just hang out on the stoop. They hang out on the stoop for hours, just chilling out. And I'm like, and then they see me, like, sprint. I'm, like, pulling up on my moped, sprinting in the door. Rah! Run underneath! That's how I am, dude. It's like, sprinting back out.

Get on my moped. Running around, like, rah! You know, like, getting places fast. It's like... Do you feel more at peace when you're like that? I, I must. I mean,

there's gotta be a reason why I'm doing that. I'm like, God, everyone's like, you need to chill out. Like everyone says that to me, like you're running, you're going like,

I have three months off. I, I think I've traveled more in these three months. Then me just like being in a van for seven hours and looking at the fucking NBA 2K on the TV screen and just chilling. But when I'm off the

road, I am running around. I'm in Philly. I'm in New York. I'm in Denver just going to fucking Laker games. Why am I like this? I'm intrigued by therapy because my sister's a therapist. My dad, he's been a marriage and family therapist.

And yeah, a lot of it is, a lot of it I feel like oftentimes traces back. Most therapies, most therapists will bring you to talk about your family and where it stems. And I mean, it's making more sense to me now because of just living with a two-month-old

and thinking, just staring at her, thinking, oh, I need to maintain eye contact. I need to not be on my phone all the time. I need to show this thing love so it can know it's wanted so it's not like 20 years from now talking to a therapist about how I didn't give enough. Yeah, exactly.

And I do feel like I'm a naturally, like I'm a pretty selfish person. So that was my biggest fear with fatherhood, you know? And so, yeah, family is complicated, man. And I feel you there, man. Do you think we are forgetting what intimacy is because we're absorbed in our phones? Oh, yeah. I mean, to a certain extent. Yeah.

I mean, do you know how to be intimate anymore? I do find it's hard. It's a dumb question, baby. No, no maybe no no no it's not I'm just thinking about it cause I think about that I don't know how to be intimate

like like saying I love you to friends and stuff or just asking someone how their day is or like you know like we're intimate with our careers

we know every inch of our fucking careers but like when we go deeper into like friendships and stuff, I barely know my band, which is kind of sad. I look at bands very much like family. And I think about that with you because I know your old band,

love all the guys. But I think what happens, it's just like any relationship and families. Relationships and careers, everything starts and for two years, it's fun. It's like you're getting to know each other. There's lots to talk about. And then you hit a two-year mark and then it becomes like, all right, now this is going to be something that we're – now it's kind of about commitment. It's like how can we keep each other happy to make this worth it? Because all the shininess has worn off.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that's every relationship known, including your relationship with your career. I think that's why when I talk about being 21 and 22, those are magical times. Or you could just be someone who every two years does something else which there are people that do that you know i do that but this is the biggest thing i've committed to ever my music yeah so i mean you know there there's that way of living as well but i

think that um are you a quitter no no i'm I that's one thing that I'm I mean I definitely feel I have going for me is I'm like I'm I won't give up you know

so why are you worried about if you're successful now or in five years from now well because you know Andy like to keep on like to hit it again

is um if I do think about it I'm not worried about it. You know, once I, all I got to do, it's just an initial thought. My initial thought is like, my default is sadness. I wake up in the morning and my default mindset is, fuck this. You know, can I get out of bed?

Whatever. Who cares? Why should I do anything? That's my default. And then as soon as I start thinking about things, and I mean, gradually, my day usually gets better. And then I can go through ups and downs throughout. So funny.

I think that, yeah. Because I'm the exact opposite. Really? When I wake up, I'm like, let fucking go. And then I just get sadder and sadder as the day goes by. Ah, wow. So I guess my optimism is low-key real. Like your sadness is low-key real.

Yeah, that's interesting because I feel like there's a lot of similarities with this. But like doing, and I feel like maybe that's what keeps me doing things as well. It's like I'm just, you know, because like once I get going, I'm not like, once I get going, like I lose that sadness. Hold on, let's let this out. We are in a storage unit. We got to let the audience know we're still in a storage unit. No, but we'll leave with this and then we're going to hear your song. Okay. Now that you have a baby, congratulations.

Fucking beautiful. Thanks. Oh, my God. Thanks. I was watching her sleep last night. She had a mouth wide open and shit. I'm like, damn, maybe I could have a baby. Even though I'm scared shitless of commitment.

Yeah. I kind of have a girlfriend now, so it's like first ever girlfriend I ever had. That is very impressive. It's fucking weird. But now that you have a legacy and shit, what do you want to be remembered by right now, 34 years old, in your career and as a father? And what's your baby? I want to be someone who is always who is always curious about what people

had to say you know and would always step up to the plate with people that didn't uh either didn't have a lot or didn't have a lot of friends necessarily i've always didn't have a lot of friends no no that's what i i want to be there for people that are loners kind of you know and i do feel like i've been a bit of a loner. In fact, yeah, I don't think I have a lot of friends and that's okay. Some of that is by choice. Yeah. Choice. But, um, I like, I'm not saying that as a negative thing necessarily, but I, um, but yeah,

I think, you know, and I want to make sure I'm there to give echo my daughter's name. Uh, I want to be there to give her the time, you know, time she deserves because I know that that's, and that will be the hardest thing for me. What about in your career? What do you want to be remembered by? My songs.

What about your songs? That's okay to be sad? Yeah, no, I just want them to speak to people in a time, in a real time, you know? Like, in a time that seems... In the same way I want to be there for a person who maybe doesn't have a lot of friends or is alone, or, like, I want to be there for someone with my songs, you know? And I know sometimes I am,

because I get people who are nice enough to write me or whatever. Like you see people, how they react to a certain lyric. And I know it can do that. So I think, yeah, at the end of the day, as much as I love performing and a lot of aspects of making music, I think songs are where it's at for me. One last thing.

List me five things that you absolutely love. Only thing that just came to my mind was just literally just food. We like to eat. Yeah. Absolutely love pizza. yeah absolutely love well I absolutely love

pizza I absolutely love when I have an entire day empty to make music and create things I love live performance but if you love live performance why are you so worried about

I love live performance when there's an audience. Okay. Let me rephrase that. Okay, now what else? And... You like making people happy? No. I mean, that's not necessarily the goal.

I like to just be a constant for someone. And that can be a song. My goal is not to make someone happy. It's to make something that someone relates to. So that way they don't feel alone. Wow. You love the idea of not being alone yeah yeah i mean yeah you want to be there for somebody absolutely i love that yeah god teach me i want to be here for you man you are buddy yeah i'm telling you you don't understand

how much you've inspired me you don't the most played song I've had on my Spotify for two years straight now, you and I. Third best song, let a little love in. Nice, man. You're my favorite artist, bro. Thanks, man. To think that we're friends like this now, when I thought you were my favorite artist when I was 19

and we were at Spike Hill and you played and you had crazy fucking eyes, dude. I remember your eyes like you were a psychopath. Like really, like truly a psychopath. And I'm like, I fuck with this guy. I like this guy. Because you have that crazy stare sometimes. When you get really excited about shit, even when you eat, like I watch you when you eat. Like when you went to that meatball place and you were so hungry and you're eating and like you looked up to me again and you had this fucking crazy the crazy eye that i'm like

when you like really kill something and so wow dude that's not a stalker no no i'm just glad to know i just i didn't i didn't know i was a psychopath when i was 21 i thought maybe now but you know it's interesting to know back then too to us me and you we're not psychopaths because we understand each other yeah but to the bum that's hanging out by the stoop who's just chilling for five hours and they see you fucking kicking the door in with your moped let's fucking go let's go let's go you probably might think we're a little crazy you know so it's like it's the same thing like people misunderstand my live show they think I'm just this fucking

drug taking weirdo when everything is everything's planned in my brain I love it man such respect for your live show it's just like we were just talking about this yesterday

but I mean the fact that anyone has you open. In fact, every now and then I've seen you on an open thing and it always makes me laugh because I just feel so bad for who has to follow. Bro, it's the same with you, bro. That's why people won't let you open. Even your close friends. And I can't wait to hear this fucking song now that I know what this song is about.

We won't talk about it, but I know. So I can't wait. Caleb, thanks for being on the show again. I love you. I'm always here for you, bro. Thank you. Even if you get in a fucking hole and you don't know who to talk to, just talk to me.

Thanks, Andy. I'll just fucking listen. I won't fucking give you advice. I'll just listen. Dude, it's been clear to me. Thanks, Andy. I'll just fucking listen. Me too, man. I won't fucking give you advice. I'll just listen. Dude, it's been clear to me today that, I mean, listen, there's so many things you can do. It's like you got the talk show ahead of you,

but you've also, you know, like maybe when you're like 70, you could be a therapist too. I would. I mean, you could be a therapist now, but like I just, you know, I just know you got a lot of things you got to do. I got a lot of things.

We both do. Yeah. Let's get to work. Thanks, Caleb, for being on the show, buddy. Yeah, man. And now, a message from Caleb Hawley. Thank you. dream come true if i never know i can live through you you'll get the blessings i can't break through so tell me what it's like to have a dream come true is it everything you ever wished for Do you level up

and yearn for more This fortune come knocking on your door each night Does having it easy make you lose your fight Tell me what is right to have a dream come true

If I never know i can live through you you get the blessings i can't break through so tell me what it's like to have a dream come true watching you flourish it is a beautiful thing But I get a bit sad just thinking of me When I look at this picture from 2003 I remember who I thought I'd be Tell me what it's like to have a dream come true If I never know I could live through you

You get the blessings I can't break through So tell me what it's like to have a dream come true You get the blessings i can't break through so tell me what it's like to have a dream come true beautiful all right and we're here thanks caleb for being on the show uh fascinating stuff second time in the studio with me we just just got a little deeper on depression and stuff. And I wanted to close our show with the killer, the Manila, Corino Reichman, bass player extraordinaire. Hey, Manila.

Welcome back to the show. Thanks, buddy. Nice to see you. How you doing? I'm so good. I'm so happy to be back and talking with you. It's great. What's been up?

Shit's good, yo. Shit's good. I just got back last night. You're working hard. Yeah, totally. I did three shows in Colorado this last weekend and just got home and here we are. You actually were just a guest on my podcast. Yeah, why don't you pitch that for one time? Yo, it's called

Three from the Seven. And it's kicking ass. Yo, it's good times. It's good times. It's Relics' weekly news podcast where we chronicle three stories from the last three stories from the last seven days and uh it's good times it's me and my dear friend rafaela kenny sincada who's a long-ass name dog totally and i forget her actual title i think it's associate editor here at relics magazine but she crushes shit and she's super dope and uh yeah i like being part of this

family i love it what do you like about what shapiro is bringing to the table oh my god i mean i just find that this you know scene of music is super inclusive and i mean not just you know a musician a musician but fans too you know it's just like not and journalists and journalists everybody yeah and it's just like uh you know i don't know i feel like in some pockets of music people are super uptight or too good for this or too good for that and it's like real sceney and clicky and whatnot and i don't know i love just you know the jam world found me and i'm fucking super glad did you ever think you'd be in the jam world good question i mean complicated you know i kind of i went to school with trey anastasio's

kids and like i started going to fish shows by accident you know and that just turned into like the my favorite thing ever you know what was it that made it your favorite thing ever like the friendship that you had with the anastasios or like the bonding experience like what just the show the music like the I mean all of it honestly it was just so surreal and beyond words you know but just you know being able to see fish and like I had never seen music like that you know I grew up on rock and roll and you know I liked heavier stuff I like metal and punk and like all that stuff and uh and just like you know 70s you know big riff rock and whatnot.

But I don't know, something about seeing Phish and seeing like, you know, them taking chances on stage and just kind of, you know, listening to one another and creating something out of nothing that will never be replicated again is a magical thing to me. Yeah, that's why people love the jam scene because it's kind of like you're going to get this experience tonight. Tomorrow is going to be a completely different vibe. Right. right i mean it gives you something to chase right and it gives

it's it's so i feel like it's so alive because it's fleeting every everything is you know what i mean like whatever somebody's putting down in a jam or just you know a moment of inspiration or whatever like letting the muses play you you know what i'm saying it's just like you know here one second and gone the next and it won't be replicated it's a crazy i think people do like it for that reason does that give you pressure though that you always have to have something new and creative every show definitely like what what does that stress you out well i mean it doesn't stress me out but it's definitely a thing where like you know if i just played the same set every night that you would have less to think about perhaps you know what i mean you would just at least be like you know i'm not saying going through the motions but you would know exactly

what note you were gonna play next where is that boring to you it is and it isn't i also like really appreciate the showmanship of of that you know what i mean and i i can really appreciate like a production that's dialed into the nines and is the same every night, but is very specific and you kind of are like, holy shit, that's what that guy does. To a T. You know what I mean? I'm totally into that too.

For me, I don't know. I like having it both ways. I've played in so many bands and have had stuff where you do play the same set every night no problem. And then here in kind of improvisation world where you're just, you are kind of digging real deep and trying to find the next note that will be the one that resonates the most,

not just with you, but with the people and with your bandmates. And it's an ever ending search, which is cool. As you, that's fucking awesome, by the way. Like as you being the front man now, which is cool. That's fucking awesome, by the way. As you being the front man now, because you have your Reikman project, what's your philosophy? What do you want to do?

What's your approach on how you want to do a set? I mean, I want it to be different every night. And it is, just by virtue of us jamming and trying to make something cool happen every night that's different for sure um right now like you know i'm trying to get the catalog together such that there is that like you know if we did two nights somewhere which isn't gonna happen anytime soon but if we did i would want to be able to well it's just not there yet you know oh like would you want to oh fuck yeah i'd love to what i want to let's go i'm stressed out about doing two nights in the town are you how do you feel about that me out because do you feel pressure

to switch it up fuck yes and i know that like because like people see they're not gonna see like when they feel like oh he just did the same shows they're just looking at my shtick right they're not looking at the song structure that and the different songs they're just like oh he crowd surfed again it's the same fucking show like one trick pony style like it's just it's a hard it's stressful i think and like that's one thing like going back into this mental health thing is like there's a lot of pressure to entertain good every single night especially when you're testing out new shit like have you ever bombed on a show? Like, because you try to test out new shit? Totally. Absolutely.

Name the worst one. I mean, just like, you know, you write a new tune and you're like, oh, yeah, let's try it. And it like is super vibey, you know, when you captured it on tape. But like live, it's just bad placement or it's just like too slow or too fast even or like whatever it is. You know what I mean? I've definitely had those times where I'm like,'m like oh yeah let's do this because it'll be new and new is good and then you're like oh shit like i think that was too new you know what i mean like it needs to be ironed out a little more like you know some shit like that that's totally happened and that's a shame but also i don't know i feel i'm very much like not I try really hard not to dwell

on anything good or bad like I really am like maybe to a fault like a little unreflective in the sense where I'm just like kind of moving on moving on moving on leave it behind move it on move it on you know what I mean? Did you learn that from New York? Probably Probably I also

So fast all the time that you're always thinking about the next step. Probably. And also just like, I don't know, I've been very lucky. I'm knocking on wood right now. But like, you know, I've had so many kind of like, you know, just beyond surreal things happen to me in my life. Like all of this is like, well, I can't even believe I'm in Marco's band at all. You know what I mean?

Like even just that, like that was a total fluke. You know what I mean? And to do that or. Why do you mean a fluke I got you know Dave Drywitz from Ween and from J-Rad and you know toured with Marco for four years and then when he couldn't do it anymore because Ween came back he asked me to fill in for him yeah and I was just a 22 year old you know did you know Marco better yeah but like not that well he had never seen me play. You know what I mean? Even just that, which has now become my life four years later, is so surreal to me.

And we've been in these things where I'm like, wow. When I was 13, I was fucking going crazy to see half the bands that we've played with or toured with or on festivals. And I'm like, wow, now I'm playing after them. That's crazy or whatever, just weird stuff. So I feel like, you know, good or bad, I try not to, you know, get too caught up and being like, holy shit, that was the best shit of all fucking time,

or like, ooh, that felt bad, like whatever it is, you know, just to keep myself sane, I think, and not to get too caught up in the good or the bad. You know what I mean? Who taught you this philosophy? Your mom? I think it's just me. No, they're more reflective than I am. Who are you reading, Karina? I'm not reading. Teach me how to live like that.

I don't know. Sometimes I get so stuck in the past or I get so stuck in the future of booking other shows that it's hard for me to stay present when I'm not on stage like what do you what do you do on the road that keeps you present when you're driving that six hours that's real tough too because i'm oftentimes you know dealing with stuff back home and booking new stuff and you know working on various things that come my way where it takes me out of the moment 100% and I do feel like

like you you know the time where I'm the most present is when playing music because you know if you miss the change you miss the change like you know you did you know what I mean like that's that's the hugest you know most amazing thing about music to me I don't know I I really just now these days I really am trying to live very much moment by moment. You know what I mean? And not be too caught up in old things or new things. And when I am looking towards like the next thing or whatever, like there's designated time for that. Yeah. And then when there isn't like hopefully I'm catching up with my pals or seeing my parents or you know writing more music or like doing stuff like that where it's just like i don't know i feel like there should be designated time where you're

like you know dealing with stuff into like work or whatever it is you know what i mean how how important is your time to you my time incredibly yeah like the most valuable yeah so with that theory, is it hard to balance Marco and your solo project? Not yet. It isn't yet. It isn't yet. But I know, you know. What has priority for you? I won't miss a Marco gig.

I will not miss a Marco gig. And I've turned down gigs with my band. That are big shows? Yeah. Yeah. You know, lucrative shows, like totally, to make sure that I could still do the Marco stuff. Just because, I mean, like, you know, I'm not deluded about, like nobody would know who the fuck I am if it wasn't for Marco.

You know what I mean? Everything comes from that, and I'm forever grateful. You know what I mean? And I'm not looking to replace one with the other. I want to do it all simultaneously and just never stop playing. So loyalty is important to you? Oh, fuck yeah, absolutely. what does it mean to you i mean i know very well that you know he he's made my career in so many ways you know what i mean it's just uh i would never taught you so much so much

i was 22 year old you know years old and finishing up my senior year at nyu when i joined his band you know what i mean like the last four years that NYU when I joined his band. You know what I mean? Like the last four years that I've been in his band have been like, you know, College of Marco, we like to say, you know what I mean? So like, just, you know, it's unbelievable to watch him, you know, not only live every night, because that's unbelievable, but just to work on music in his studio, like how he comports himself with like, you know, such joy and grace and like he's so cool to everybody he meets and you know, even like super annoying fans

who are just like, I saw you at Tantalus in 99, dude. Do you remember him, Margo? You remember me? You remember me? He's like, oh yeah. Gave you a t-shirt. Yeah, exactly. Like even in those situations, he's totally cool. You know, any, you know, it's so many little things that I've learned and whatnot.

I would never, I don't know. I'm not at all trying to like have a solo career so I can no longer play with Marco. That's like the farthest thing on my mind. So like when he's doing J-Rad, I'm doing my band. You know what I mean? So it's the other thing to fill your time. A hundred percent.

I just want to play. I want to play my ass off, you know? What's the most important thing looking back that uh marco taught you in those the education years the school of marco the four years yeah oh my god marco phd you know to what i i i you know like a lot of people do i feel like people put musicians on pedestals, especially ones that are so naturally gifted. And like, you know, he's, you know, almost 20 years older than me.

Like he's seen some shit. He looks good. I know. I'd fuck him. You'd fuck him. You probably should. I'll give you his number. Holla at your boy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go to the dark side. He's good to go. But seriously. He looks great. No, but all bullshit aside he you know he it like you watch somebody be so good at what they do and you're like almost intimidated and you're like wow what the fuck but then you watch them like try and learn something new

and you're like oh my god like he has to play it twice too you know what i mean or whatever to like actually get you know the riff under your fingers or whatever. Like, I always love seeing musicians like working on something and whatever, because no matter how naturally gifted or like how many years of Berkeley or 20 years of touring or whatever it is that you've had under your belt, like we all still like, I mean, some people pick things up faster than others and whatever, but I just, I love seeing Marco, seeing Marco like you know he really humanized musicians to me in a lot of ways because I was sure I'm a musician but like I was just kind of figuring it out and I never thought I'd play with somebody as you know incredible as him really when I was younger I was like holy shit that's like a big deal like you know I really thought like that was some unattainable whatever, you know what I mean?

Confidence. Yeah. Call it that. Great, great call, Andy. Yeah. So like, I mean, I think that's half the game. I think it is. Is life half the game confidence?

I would say, yeah, let's say that. Absolutely. He taught me to like, you know, really be like, oh shit, like what you're throwing down is so important too. You know what I mean? Don't discredit your riffs. You know what I mean? My personality that comes through in my playing, that's fucking, that's me.

And whatever comes through from him, that's him. I don't know. It really breathed life into my whole image of musicality. I think that's the beauty of working in a group. Fuck yeah. When you're doing it by yourself, you don't get four other brains who are thinking differently. That could build your confidence even stronger.

You ever do solo gigs? Frightening? I have never done a solo gig and I would be scared shitless to do one, honestly. That's a lot of... Vulnerability. I did stand-up for Gary Goldman in Boston and I had a piano. I mean, vulnerability. I did stand up for Gary Goldman in Boston. And I had a piano and I was so nervous.

Was it scary? It was the scariest thing I ever did because I was by myself. I had to ask Ryan Momplew. You know Ryan Momplew? Sure, yeah. He backed me up for two songs, you know, because he... I think, yeah, like going back to this, it's confidence. Like half the battle in life is knowing that there's going to be ups and downs, but it's

confidence that's going to get you through the down. Totally. Like when you're feeling low on the road, you know that in three hours that it's all going to change because you're going to be on stage and you're going to be back into your fucking element. Yeah, totally. Totally. And also, yeah, I'm super about that

and kind of into like, you know, the idea of like feelings being like temporal and like fleeting, you know what I mean? Everything's fleeting. So like in one moment, you're feeling kind of fucked up and shitty and low or whatever. And you're like,

got to take a moment to really realize like these things come and go. Surges of happiness will come and go. Surges of sadness will come and go surges of sadness will come and go and like kind of separate yourself from your brain almost a little bit or get i don't know it's like a weird maybe that's the answer to the question you asked a long time what do i do to stay whatever present or just like kind of dialed in on the road is just like or or in general in life like you know being home too you'd kind of have moments of like oh what am i doing am i working hard enough am i doing this enough like fuck if i had spent you know three more seconds dialing this in then it would be in a good place

why didn't i do that instead i went and did my podcast and then i had dinner with a friend fuck like you know or whatever you just like don't like you're. You're only one fucking person. Give yourself a break. Realize that feelings come and go. And that's important shit. I feel like we're not as hard on everyone else than we are with ourselves. Why are we so hard on ourselves? It's really true.

It's really true. I think it's like it goes back to confidence. Once you understand that I'm going to get it done. I might not get it done right now, but I'll get it done eventually. I mean, I feel like that's half the battle. I agree.

To fight this anxiety. Do you feel, here's a question for you. I'm flipping it on you, Kat. Bring it, podcast girl. No, because you're touring under your own name and you have been for quite some time, right? So the totality of your essence is a commodity, right? Like you're touring under your own name and you have been for quite some time, right? So, you know, the totality of your essence is a commodity, right?

Like you're selling it. You're selling tickets to it. You have your podcast. Like, and you feel like you're larger than life. You know what I mean? You're, the idea of yourself is risen, you know, to such an inflated thing. Like, you know, and me to a much lesser extent,

like, you know, that's the whole social media thing. You look at yourself through this weird lens that you've created or other people have created and you're selling tickets and people are like oh you got to make a video so that you know yada yada yada my question really is like you know how do you grapple with that like does that make you feel like you have to live up to this crazy image of yourself or like all the time right i mean that's the main reason why i was doing coke every night and like doing this one night stand because in my head i felt like my persona was this rock star right that i have to be fucking motley crew i'm not gonna make it unless i'm talking about

fucking drugs and girls and you know titties and fuck dick whatever you know what i'm saying like just because i because i thought that's the idea of a rock star. Sure. Until you hang out with rock stars like you, Karina, and everyone, and realize that's not it. We're doing music. We're staying present. And we're just trying to entertain today.

Sure. You know, we're not trying to entertain tomorrow. We'll worry about that later, I learned. You know, we've got to focus on now. And that kind of settled my brain. Like, I're not trying to attain tomorrow. We'll worry about that later, I learned. You know, we got to focus on now. And that kind of settled my brain. Like, I'm just going to be me. I put out that video of me talking about mental health and how I'm depressed and I have therapy and shit and I'm doing all that stuff.

And I was so nervous to put it out. But that's who I am. Right. You know, and like we're just so afraid to be who we are sometimes when once we show people the true identity of who we are then people like us more

because we're not faking it. It's not a bullshit ass act. I like that and that's so important and hard as shit to do. Was that hard for you too? The hardest thing ever is to be your authentic self. And especially when you sell yourself and I mean that not in a hookery way that hard for you too it's you know the hardest thing ever is to be your authentic self no like and to and especially when you sell yourself and i mean that not in a hookery way but in a fucking

you know what i mean like you're literally we're selling ourselves every day every day and you become a commodity and you recognize that and people are you have an agent like i don't but i'm fucking cutting deals myself and i'm like i want this much and i want this you know what i mean or whatever and then you feel whack for asking for or then you get it or you don't or they're like no less or they're like oh we'll give you that you know whatever and that'll

fuck you up yeah it's a fucking crazy thing to have to deal with you know what I mean I had to disconnect from that because it was hurting me it hurts me too I totally get that podcast fans I know there's a lot of industry people on this fucking who listen to this it was hurting me. It hurts me too. I totally get that. Podcast fans, I know there's a lot of industry people on this fucking,

who listen to this. Get Corinne a goddamn agent. Need somebody to do my journey work. But you're learning a lot though, right? I'm learning a shit ton and all bullshit aside, I'm not mad to do it at all. And I like keeping 100% of what,

you know, there's a lot of pros to it, but it also is,'s a tough thing it's it's hard to cut your own deals because you're you're you know what i mean you're selling your art you're selling your art and like i'm trying to be my most authentic self through my music and convey something big and like you know just like kind of you know i want to just play yeah but you also don't want to devalue yourself no and then you don't want to devalue yourself no and then you don't want some fucking bumfuck promoter to be like no she's a musician i got this yeah and or like people are you don't know when you're being taken i mean i kind of know

when i'm being taken advantage of but you know it's just one of those things where where it's hard because you whether or not you have you know you have managers and agents in place because they see you from an outside perspective. You know what I mean? And they can sell you and it's not you selling you. You know what I mean? That's tough. That's a really hard thing to do.

It's hard. And you know what? It's fucking honorable that you're fucking kicking ass like this in the city. And you're doing Marco. You're doing your project. You're doing the podcast. I mean, you're doing all you can.

It's all good, man. It's all good. And it's fucking kicking ass. And I'm proud of you. So. You're doing the podcast. You're doing all you can. It's all good, man. It's fucking kicking ass. I'm proud of you. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for letting me be on your podcast. I just hope we stay friends forever. You and me both, Andy. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening, guys. Andy Frazier will see your podcast. Rate the show

if you want. I'll leave you with this. Life's short. Don't take life for granted. Be the person you want to I'll leave you with this. Life's short. Don't take life for granted. Be the person you want to be and wear condoms if you do not want to have children because overpopulation is real. Look at this coronavirus

that's going around. Right, Karina? Straight up. Straight up. Don't be fucking unless you're... Well, do whatever you want, but protect yourself.

Wrap it up. Wrap it up. Thanks for being on the show, Karina. My pleasure, my friend. Have a good one, guys. You tuned in to the third season of Masterful Madness at Andy Fresco's World Saving Podcast. Thank you for listening to episode 74. Produced by Andy Fresco,

Joe Angel, our own Chris Lawrence. Please subscribe and rate the show on iTunes and Spotify so we can make this a worldwide phenomenon. For info on the show, please head Spotify so we can make this a worldwide phenomenon. For info on the show, please head to our Instagram at worldsavingpodcast. For more info on the blog and tour dates, head to andyfresco.com. Keep on keepin', the new single. Keep on keepin', everywhere you can stream music.

Keep on keepin'. And this week's guest is Caleb Hawley. Find him on calebhawley.com. C-A-L-E-B, Caleb. H-A-W-L-E-Y, Horley. This week's co-host is Carina Reitman. Find her on CarinaReitman.com. Reitman, R-Y-K, man. This week's special guests are Ari Findlings, Kyle Ayers and Arno Bakker.

I got some spare time these days, so I jumped back in my family history. My great-great-great-great-great-grandfather refused to fight for the French, for Napoleon, so he jumped on a ship, sailed down the river, got a girl pregnant when he anchored, and was a refuge father at 18. My mother's family is found in the slums of Rotterdam around 1820. Thirteen recorded babies, only four got to adulthood, 2 brothers died the same year on ships 19 and 21 years old, only 2 kids made it. We came a long way. I read a book on the slums while eating pancakes on an old ship, paid just over 25 dollars for

2 fucking pancakes and a glass of water, before playing music to make some more money. Remarkable all things considered, how they have struggled and fought to give me choices in life. I hope I made the right ones. Pancakes.