Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 86: Theo Katzman

Episode Date: May 26, 2020

We kick off this week with Shawn going the (Social) Distance. Andy catches us up on his workaholism and offers us all a hit on his dab rig of unending encouragement. On a very special Interview Hour, we're proud to welcome the inimitable, Theo Katzman! They talk Theo's origin story, Vulfpeck's humble beginnings in Ann Arbor, & the immutable 'north star' that compels Theo to put in the Hard Work. We close out with Ari Fink from SiriusXM as co-host. It's EP 86 yo. Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For more information on Andy Frasco, the band and/or the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com Check out Andy's new album, "Keep On Keepin' On" on iTunes Spotify  Don't sleep on Modern Johnny! follow Theo at www.theokatzman.com Produced by Andy Frasco Joe Angelhow Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: Shawn Eckels Chris Lorentz Arno Bakker  Caleb Hawley Ari Fink

Now, a message from the UN. He's pacing, texting, mostly on his couch Learning to livestream anything to make her proud The sun has gone down, the moon has come up A long time ago somebody fucked up Some guy ate a bat, now everybody's sick What's it go to his girlfriend? Give her some dick He's socially distant He's been home for weeks She's all alone Living in quarantine He's sexting and yawning Rearranging things at home He's sleeping does laundry

Got his parents on the phone FaceTiming and zooming So he feels less alone Not working or fucking There's nowhere to roam He's socially distant He's in quarantine He's socially distant He's socially distant He's in quarantine

He's socially distant Alright, and we're back. Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast. I'm Andy Frasco. How's everyone doing? How's our heads? How's our minds? Are we staying straight two months into this fucking quarantine, y'all? I'm telling you, do I have to put on the Eye of the Tiger music one more time? You hear it. Stay focused. You got to stay sharp in this, Rona. We're about to go crazy. People going to the beach like shit is sweet right now.

Shit's real. Corona's real. Anyway, hope everyone's doing good. Had a busy fucking week. Busy ass week. I'm going to do a short intro. We got Theo Katzman from FulfPack and his own project. He's the man.

I finally got to meet him. All my friends, Chris Lorenz, producer of the show, knows him from Mishy. He just knows a lot of my friends. I got to talk to him and it was badass. But I had a crazy week. We had a great shit show. We had David Shaw from Revivalist.

We had Billy Strings, who's a bad motherfucker. And we had Mike Taylor from His Golden Messenger It was a great show I just worked on that It's been a busy week I've been just glued at my fucking computer

Building content So I hope the content we made was good And not We worked really hard on it So I hope you enjoyed it Then I was the host of Summer Camp this weekend, which was awesome. Building that out and stuff and putting all my fucking

making some sketch videos with all my homies. It was awesome. Just doing Zoom interviews with everyone so anyone who catch the Summer Camp interview, shout out to y'all. Thank you for supporting the cause. Keeping me sane is this fucking weed. I've been smoking from Boulder 14er.

Have you all had this weed before? Fucking great. They have this thing called Kosher Kush. And I fucking love it, dude. I rock it for Shabbat. And I play. I smoke it. I like sativas.

I like hybrids. And these guys do pretty good hybrids. So if you're in the Colorado area, go buy some fucking 14er. I enjoy it. I think you will too. It's not too heady. I'm not really into psychoactive fucking weeds. And this is clean weed.

And you know, the best thing about living in Colorado is these guys are fucking scientists when it comes to weeds. So go grab some 14er for this weekend or whenever and fucking give them some love because they're good guys. And they help me and they're like my therapist. So shout out to 14er and shout out to all the people just growing weed and taking care of people's mental health

through marijuana. Now I'm in Breckenridge. I'm taking the week. I'm taking the week going to Breckenridge. I'm going to chill out by the mountains. Try to find me a mountain girl. Make love. No, probably not.

Everyone's so scared about quarantine. And people over here, everyone I talk to is like, whoa, Frasco, you got to have the Rona. So I don't have the Rona, but it's time for me to get out of the house, the frotorium in Denver. I went to hang out with my buddy Scott at his house in the mountains. It's just so beautiful here.

Danny and Dolov left for the week. I'm sad. I'm kind of bummed out about it. They went back to L.A. to go see their families for a week or two. Hopefully, they come back to Denver. If not, I hope you enjoyed the content they gave. They're fucking awesome. They've been my best friends. Middle school. They're great dudes. So I hope they have fun in LA. If you're here in this dough, I've had fun, but come back if you want. And Danny too, the videos we made, we made a Jordan documentary.

We had a fake Jordan documentary where I was Jordan's bodyguard, which was fucking awesome. Jordan documentary where I was Jordan's bodyguard, which was fucking awesome. And I had a blast on that and, uh, I'm becoming an actor. No, I'm not. But, um, it's fun to dress up in characters and dress up like, you know, it's like alter egos. Like I get acting now. It's like, not like I don't, I'm not good at it, but like I get the concept of acting and why people like it because you could dress up and be whoever you want. You know, that's why this quarantine I relate with because this is the time when we could be whoever we want, whoever we need to be, because life is precious. And if we don't live in the moment, then we can't be these weird characters we've always wanted to be. So let's stay present. If you want to be fucking, you want

to talk to yourself and be a Jack nixon or a be a cowboy or whatever be it fuck it we got time it's quarantine baby this is time to find yourself find what you like to do find what you want to be in life because we're gonna look back at this in 20 years or 30 years or when we're on our deathbed and hopefully that's in like a hundred years or whatever. I'd be like, yeah, I spent that quarantine, you know, the great quarantine. We're going to remember this forever, y'all. This isn't a normal thing. Hopefully, hopefully it's not, but maybe this is a once in a lifetime thing and we experienced it and that's pretty sweet. So what can we do to make the best out of this? That's the question we need to ask ourselves.

How can we become the best people we can be when we're by ourselves and we actually can work on those things when we're not overworked, when we're not stressed? This is the time where we find out that fucking knitting is badass or fucking cooking rocks. I love cleaning

dishes, dog. I don't, I don't like like the dirty stuff. Well, I, okay. I got to rephrase that. I love clean. I love put, I love, I love taking the dishes out of the dishwasher when it's hot and my hands are warm and I'm walking them over to the cabinets. I'm like, yeah, fuck it. Clean shit. Anyway, that's me, my OCD-ness, a little glimpse into my life. But ladies and gentlemen, let's start the show. We got a big one. We got Ari Fink closing in as my co-host. We talk music. We talk Sirius XM. We talk the future of gigging, which is important for all us musicians. And he's got his hand, finger on the pulse because he picks out music every day.

That's his life. So, 4seriousXM. And then we got Theo Katzman, the headliner, as I might say. Great dude. We had a great talk. We vibed so well. You're going to love it. So, ladies and gentlemen, let's get the party started.

Enjoy this interview. Enjoy Ari, and I will catch you on the tail end and probably catch you in the middle somewhere. I don't know. Maybe. Love you, and I'll talk you on the tail end and probably catch you in the middle somewhere. I don't know. Maybe. Love you. And I'll talk to you soon. All right.

Next up on the interview hour, we have Theo Katzman, songwriter. My man, New York bred. Michigan adopted. Now he's a Los Angeles guy. Hey, Chriswriter, my man, New York bread, Michigan, adopted. Now he's a Los Angeles guy. Hey, Chris, play your boy Theo, man. Theo was in the band Volpex. Now he's working on his solo career, and he's a good guy.

I've always wanted to interview him. I love his voice, and I love his songwriting. So this was a very, very special moment for me to get to interview guys that I admire. Not that I don't admire all my guests, but this one was special. So, ladies and gentlemen, let's get this party started. I hope you enjoy the interview that Theo and I did. So, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Theo Kass. I can't help it if I just don't give. I don't want to be a billionaire. I'm tired of hearing about the IPO.

All of the ways that all the cash could flow. It would be nice if it would trickle down to the people on the other side of town. But something tells me that they probably won't. Cause something tells me that they just ain't right. Taking donations for the 1% Out of the pockets of the 99 So close your eyes and cover up your ears This ain't the message that you came to hear

But I get everything if I just don't care I don't want to be a billionaire No, I don't No, I don't want to be a billionaire No, I don't No, I don't I don't want to be a billionaire I don't want to sacrifice my life Trying to save five seconds off a checkout line Think of something that the whole world needs

Fast and fast food delivery I don't want to be forced to guess What to do with all of my excess Take vacations into outer space No, no, no, no, no, no Okay, law school teachers are living ways I know nothing's gonna come from this Except for make a couple people pissed

It ain't effective far as I can tell Telling the devil he should go to hell And I don't even know who's to blame Or who's been marching in the hit parade But I don't really wanna sing along If a computer wrote the fucking song. Something blows your eyes and cover up your ears. This ain't the message that you came to hear.

But I can't help it if I just don't care. I don't want to be a billion year old. Do your motherfucking cats, my dog. What's up, dude? How you doing, man? Dude, I felt like we have so many mutual friends. I'm glad this finally worked out. We do, man.

We have, I know, like, people, and every time people are like, do you know Andy Frasco? I'm like, you know, I don't think we've, we've not actually met, right? No, we've never met. This is our first time. Yeah, it's like everyone, I know all his band members. I like, they're all my homies. Yeah, dude, like Chris Lorenz is my bass. Yeah, it's like everyone, I know all his band members. They're all my homies. Yeah, dude, like Chris Lorenz was my bass player.

I know, I know. Isn't that fucking crazy? I love Chris, yeah. So you went to, what college did you go to? University of Michigan. Oh, you went to Ann Arbor. So you lived in Ann Arbor. And then, aren't you from Long Island?

I'm from Long Island, bro. Fucking Long Island. And by the way, you're 818. So we got a little reversal here going on. Dude, Valley, baby. Switching it up a little bit. You lived in New York and we're mutual friends with Caleb Holly. Yes.

And he's hustling that New York scene. And I feel so sorry for him sometimes because it's so hard as a songwriter to fucking really pop off in New York, right? Oh, in New York? You know, I I mean Caleb is one of the best he's Caleb is one of my best friends but he's he's also really one of the best I think in terms of if you're like yeah singing guitar playing writing songs on an instrument and delivering it I just sort of feel like he's as good as anybody ever has been doing that. I really mean that. I think he's as good as it gets.

I agree. And I was watching the 1985 set of Prince. Did you watch that on YouTube yet? No. Prince pulled out, he threw out an 85 or Prince's family, because rest in peace Prince. Yeah, yeah. Oh, did he?

He's throwing out the fucking live streams from heaven yeah yeah wouldn't put it past him but it reminded me so much of caleb caleb prince is a huge influence on caleb but also i think they just come from a similar place yeah you know minneapolis well yeah they literally come from the same place yeah i guess i guess I meant musically. But yeah, no, that's a good point. I don't think... I should be clearer. Like, New York... I lived in New York.

I was born in Manhattan. I lived in Manhattan until I was seven. Then we moved to Long Island. So I really grew up on Long Island. And I didn't really go... You know, I didn't... I didn't get a chance to be an adult in New York until I decided to move to Brooklyn when I was in my 20s.

Oh, so you moved to Michigan and then moved back? Yeah, I moved to Michigan for college when I was 18 and I was there. I ended up after college sticking around for three extra years. So I was there for seven years and I really became like a townie, you know Ann Arbor it was it was that was another one of the my dreams I don't know I'm like I just like being a local dude kind of but I also am a Rolling Stone like you so I have a funny sort of tangle between those two those two worlds which is cool because the music life definitely allows you to get around around the planet which is a wonderful thing.

Explain the tangle. What are the conflicts you have in your head between having this local boy feeling and the big city boy? I don't know, man. I think it's people. I love people, and you can really get deep. I like getting deep with people, and you can get pretty deep when you live somewhere for a while

and you can't really replace that. So people will be like, my buddy Tyler, it's like somebody gave him a piano and it's an amazing piano. It's like, what? It's like, I want a piano. Well, you can't get one.

You need to know that guy. You need to have grown up around that dude and he's like, I want a piano. Well, you can't get one, you know? Like, you need to know that guy. You need to have grown up around that dude. And he's like, you know what? I think Andy's ready for a piano, you know? Yeah, totally. You know what I mean? Like, there are things that happen like that when you're in a community that are,

and I'm not just talking about getting free stuff. I just mean, like, it's... No, yeah, but the friendship, the companionship, the, you know, like like building a family in an area we're definitely communal creatures and i and i i think i think that that i just relate to that but i also love traveling i love exploration i love meeting new people so one of my favorite things is being like you know just somewhere else where i don't know anyone yeah and uh that so much especially for an artist i think that just opens up the creative process a lot

back to this New York thing I just kind of wanted to say I don't fault New York in any way for like I don't necessarily know if it's harder as a songwriter there than in LA but I just know it was for me

it was just a harder place to live with no money. Yeah. So that's very real. I mean, when you want to, when you want to live the dream in New York, it's,

and you're broke, it's, it's kind of tough, you know? Yeah. Um, it's a little easier to be, uh,

the same amount of money can, at least when I moved out here in LA at the time, could go a little further out here. And I was able to find a weird rent situation where I was like, wow, I've got crazy cheap rent in this house. And it's kind of funky, but it's totally okay. And it's on the side of a mountain. Are you in the canyons? Are you in like Topanga Canyon? Are you in the valley?

No, now I'm in, I'm on the East side of LA in Highland park, but, um, it's, I don't live on the mountain anymore. I love the mountain. No,

Mount Washington. Shout out to Mount Washington. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I feel like that's like, it's sometimes you need to move to understand what you had and how you want to grow as a person.

Right. Absolutely. Um, I, what you had and how you want to grow as a person right absolutely um i and a lot of people when they're thinking about moving it's like they sort of know that they're never coming back and so that's why it's so hard sometimes but you can it's like dude you can come back. Yeah. I mean, like. You can. You might not, you know. But, and maybe you know or you think you won't, but who knows? I mean, I moved back to Michigan after New York for like almost a year and it was, it was a great, it was a tough year, but it was like a, it was totally what I needed, you know, to go back there and kind of regroup and be like, now where do I want to go? And it was like, all right, I want to go to LA. I've always had that in my mind and I'm going to try it out. So what's the difference between being a songwriter in LA and being a songwriter in New York?

Well, when I was in New York, I sort of wasn't a songwriter, which sounds weird. But I mean, I've always been a songwriter, but I just was, I was trying so hard to be a professional musician, like pay my rent with music that I, I kind of ended up doing like anything I could get my hands on. So, which is, I met a lot of people that way. That's how I met Caleb. Basically. You met Caleb in New York or in Michigan? I met him. This is a hilarious story. I was about to move to New York, and either I called or I got a call from my friend Reed,

who's an amazing musician, person, drummer, singer, total amazing dude in Minneapolis, who I met touring with another band years and years ago in Michigan. And, what's up, Reed? How you doing? Hey, man, how you doing? I'm good, man. What's going on?

I was like, well, you know, I'm thinking about moving to New York, or I'm moving to New York, you know, in a month. And he's like, oh, wow. That's crazy. He's like, you gotta meet my cousin, man. I'm driving this car.

He's sitting right next to me. He's amazing. You're gonna love this guy. You guys are like the same person. I'm like, okay. Puts him right next to me. He's amazing. You're going to love this guy. You guys are like the same person. I'm like, okay. Puts him on the phone and it's Caleb. Oh, sick. And he's like, what's up, man?

How you doing? I'm good, man. How are you? He's like, cool. He's like, hey, yeah, when you get into New York, I'm like October 10th. He's like, oh, cool, man. I got a set at Rockwood Music Hall on the 15th. And I was like, whoa, sowood music hall on the 15th and I was like whoa so do I

shut the fuck up and he's like what what time I'm like 10 he's like I'm at 11 or something and then I'm like oh my god he's like he's like actually I need a drummer

Reed said you're a good drummer I was like i need a guitar player shut the fuck up the universe worked that way we both agreed over the phone having never met and never even heard each other play that we would play in each other's bands i fucking love it dude isn't that cool and the thing is because we both like reed is such a good musician and a great guy that we were like all right if if Reed says this guy's dope, then he's probably dope. But then I got off the phone.

I got off the phone and I was like, holy crap, what have I done, you know? And I went to this guy, I went to his MySpace page. This is to give you an idea of what this was. And I pressed play on the first song and I was like oh shit and it was just like I was like oh

this guy's amazing were you nervous to play drums for that or you already were good at being a drum funker I was pretty comfortable at the time with being what do you say drum funker yeah drums were my first instrument so backing um backing songwriter has been something i've done a lot on drums and i i feel kind of particularly

adept to do the that kind of playing on drums but start as soon as it starts to get into like level three like real real yeah funky shit i'm i'm like oh i gotta tap out even though i can i can be bare bones and sometimes that's appropriate it's like yeah you know now like like yeah any of the guys you play with can just smoke me when they need to yeah like very very very much smoke me which i love well yeah mean, it makes us all better, right? It makes us want to get better, I think, you know, when there's someone better than you in that. Totally. Like, are you a guy who, are you a competitive?

Yeah, I think I am, unfortunately. Yeah, we all, I am too, bro. We're all. But with music, it doesn't really manifest itself. I think that's what's beautiful about music. You can't really, I mean, I guess you could try to be so competitive about it that you, I don't know, but there's no like winner, kind of. There's no easy way to quantify it.

You know, I've been watching that Michael Jordan documentary. Oh my God, what the fuck, right? Isn't that incredible? Oh my God, yeah. I'm obsessed. It's really like what I needed at this time in my life, actually, to be honest. You know, like, it's a great, uh, segue because it shows you how much it takes to, to be the best at something.

Yes. And, and dig this. This was so crazy to me. I mean, I don't know if this isn't, this was my independent thought, but it, it occurred to me that I'm sure... I don't know anything about basketball. I haven't followed a lot of sports in my life. I love sports. I'm not like Joey. Believe me, I was calling Joey when I was watching this. Like, dude.

Joey. And it's funny because Joey is such a basketball fan that he, of course, remembers all this and knows exactly what happened. And I'm like, dude, when they came back came back though they came back in 94 or whatever so go back to your thought about that um competitiveness by the way man i think you're a great interviewer dude you're doing a great job oh thanks bro well this is our first hangout so we're gonna have more hangouts that's true totally um what was the question oh competitive so like what'd you learn

from the michael jordan stuff that you could bring to your everyday life yeah well so a couple things one jordan you know everybody kind of agreed in the documentary like all the contemporary players at the time they're just sort of they're like man you couldn't couldn't beat Jordan on his determination and his competitiveness. He just was sort of going to beat you at that. He was going to go harder than anyone. And as it becomes a theme in the documentary of as soon as he can get a taste of the competitiveness, even if he has to forge it in his brain,

it'll drive him. It's sick. Incredible. has to forge it in his brain it'll drive him you know it's sick incredible but that difference like some of those games were eight point games you know what i mean yeah exactly it's like that that entire year that he lived he lived a year of working harder than anyone in nba these are the best basketball players on the planet and he worked harder than all of them and he worked like way harder, it sounds like. And he came away with a couple extra baskets.

It's like, it's, I'm not trying to diminish it. I'm saying like that was so beautiful to me that that's like at the high level, like everyone is basically at the level but for the one person to be to stand out like that because when you get better everyone around you gets better because you have to play to your level so he kept like sort of elevating the game in this way and totally i don't know i thought that was fascinating and you know i don't know how much you can like train yourself to be that disciplined i sort of think of that personality type as a bit of like the talent

like i think of hard work as as part of talent in a way um i don't i'm not saying i mean it's still work work is work you know and but it's it's sort of like not everyone can get motivated to that degree to be like i am going to be the best whatever in the world yeah and i also don't know that that's not always the motivation that drives that drives each of us and with music i think it can be kind of confusing because there's it's not just like i want to sink a bunch of threes it's like what do you well there are no threes what are you what are you trying to think you know it's like it's an overall experience like it's not just being good at one thing right right and also there's so many facets to to the life like do you are you the kind of person that won't be happy

unless you play 50 gigs a year or does that number need to be 100 or or does that number can that number only be 10 it's the That's a basic question right there that nobody really knows the answer to until they start doing it. What's that question to you, though? I need to play, man. I love playing. I mean, I'm a live dude, you know? I mean, I love recording, too, and I love writing, and that's the tangle. I think performing is my most natural joy joy

inducing thing um and it just feels it just feels right it's like this is what i'm supposed to be doing yeah if i don't do it for long enough stretch of time i'd be i'd get i'd get pretty out of shape or out of whack i get it pretty i get i start to feel like who am i yeah i feel that okay i want to ask you something. Was the dream always to be a solo act? Or did something happen with a collaborative style that you're like, I just want to do this myself? I always wanted to be in a band.

And I was in a band in high school. What band? What was it called? We were called Livongo. Give me a synopsis of Livongo. Livongo. So glad we're talking about this. Livongo was me and three of my best friends, Mike Gavalis on bass,

Pete Kobos on keys, and Chris Zuwar on drums. Zuwar is a phenomenal composer um beautiful trumpet player and plays piano really really well and like just we were sort of like yo zur can you play drums he's like yeah and he he crushed it on drums too so he he's a freak of a musician and then mike and pete kind of went into different, on different paths in terms of not being like professional musicians, but both super talented.

Are they still your homies? Cardiologists now. Super good homies. We just talked, we just had a Zoom, Zoom chat on Friday. It was awesome. So explain, so what was, what was the mind state of this?

Give me it. Yeah, what was our thing? Yeah, we were, our thing was, so we all grew up in this kind of like, you know, pretty jock kind of like sports town and i mean i'm an athlete i am but i i uh not i was also well i just wasn't obsessed with um i couldn't follow like sports i can't follow anything i can't like i don't mean like i'm i'm a leader i'm not a follower i don't mean that i mean like i can't keep up with stuff. Like, I love movies, but people are like,

have you seen the new thing? I'm like, no, I don't even know what you're talking about. I just can't keep up with anything. I feel like I learn about all that stuff from people. Yes. You know, I just talk to people. And then I'm like, oh yeah. So I kind of feel like I know the cliff notes

about a lot of things. Is that the same philosophy when you're diving into new music? Do people have to tell you new music? Do you have, do people have to tell you about music or is that something you really passionately trying to find new music? It's probably, no, they have to tell me.

I mean, if I'm not, if I'm sound, yeah. And I've always been, I've always been really insecure about that. I've always felt like, why I just,

I, cause I love newness and I want, I want, I want to know what's up, but I just, I'll just listen to Stevie Wonder again, you know? So you're like, you know, you have a routine and when you have a routine for every part of your life, that's your routine, right? Yeah, I mean, I think the word routine is really interesting to me right now, especially in the quarantine, because it's like, I'm trying to get a routine, but it occurred to me that the day that your house and where everything is and this is all reflective of you and your mind state. So it's sort of like you're already living your life and your routine. It's like, whoops.

That makes sense. You already have one. and it's like, whoops. That makes sense. You already have one. It's like you're putting your life into fruition or you're putting your mind into seeing your dreams become a reality in a sense. Right?

I like that. I think that's a very positive spin on it. Yeah, I like that. What's the, give me the pessimistic spin on it. Well, not pessimistic, but it's just like we're all trying to improve ourselves, but you already have a way. I guess what I'm saying is you have your way that you roll if you don't try to change it.

And that's almost hard to even notice sometimes because we're always going like, all right, well, what can I do to improve? yeah it's like well this is this this thing that's happening around you and within you right now is what you are doing whether you notice it or not so bringing it back to high school oh yeah you were doing something you're doing what were you doing so in other words we're a bunch of athletes who also really you know realize we all love music. And I initially was a... I fell in love with Zeppelin, so I wanted to play drums in my high school band. I remember being in the orchestra playing clarinet. Clarinet?

I think, yeah, in like seventh, sixth grade or something, or seventh grade. Could you get Pussy playing clarinet? It's like, yo, baby, I got the clarinet. What's Gucci? No comment. Clarinet is a sexy instrument, man. It is. I'm telling you, man.

It's also hard. Go back. You're learning clarinet. Sorry, I was just joking. Yeah, it's okay. You're a wonderful man, dude. Look at you. Boundless joy. Give it to me. Give it to me, buddy.

Give it to me. So you're doing the clarinet. I'm doing the clarinet, and I noticed that the band is slowing down. I mean, like, the orchestra. And I remember getting really frustrated with the fact that we were slowing down. And I went home one day and I told my dad, I was like, why is, you know, the band, the whole orchestra is slowing down.

It's why, why? You know? And he was like, drummer, the drummer's not holding it together. Now, my dad was a professional musician so it was like he knows what's up he was like drummer's not holding it you know the rhythm section ain't holding it down i'm like well what's the rhythms i i didn't even know what that was yeah so then and then around the same time i heard i heard led zeppelin and i and i told my dad like i need to be i need to be a drummer my my whole thing is going to be not letting us

slow down. That's going to be my thing. I'm going to keep us there. I tried to do that in a 7th grade large ensemble. You've always been confident. You got that confidence

in you, right? You got confidence swag? I think I had a lot of confidence in you right you got confidence swag I think I had I had a lot of confidence then for sure because you know you didn't know anything but uh no I then I started I started playing the drum set and I quickly started sorry now I'm going back I started my first band with some other friends and we didn't have a singer and I started singing because I like singing. So I was just singing and playing drums. That was my first experience was playing drums and singing in a band. And then the more I got into music and songs, I started I started wanting a guitar.

And my dad got me like a $25 guitar, acoustic guitar. And from his, a buddy of his gave it to him. And I, or sold it to him for 25 bucks. I don't know why I did that. 25 bucks. Wow.

I remember him being like, yeah, it was $25. It was definitely a POS model, but I got that thing, and I started writing songs. I didn't even think about it. And then it was like, I don't really want to be the drummer in the band. I want to be the singer in the band.

Anyway, so then I formed this band with my three other buddies, and we would play original music and a ton of covers. And our original stuff was like co-written or a song of mine or a song of Pete's um you know that I would write lyrics to or a song of Mike's that we would co-write together and it was it was amazing you know we did and we would do graduation parties and um what were you writing about 16s like what. What were the themes? Yeah, well, you know, one of the big themes actually was, or one of the moments for me that was kind of, I think, triggered my sort of deeper dive into what's it all about internally

was a friend of mine actually died of a uh allergic reaction to to dairy when i was 16 it was a real tragedy and uh yeah we were we were good friends we were we were all part of a group you know and um i i really loved him and i remember our whole kind of group was like what what's it all about now? You know, like it hadn't occurred to us that that could happen. And I think it made me a little more introspective. And I started, you know, I wrote some songs about him and I wrote some songs about life or whatever and trying to figure that stuff out. And girls, I wrote about Girls and Love Songs.

Were you a sad kid growing up? No, I was pretty happy, but I was definitely emo too, you know? Yeah, same. But I don't mean emo like proper, like emo music. I mean, I was just like emo. I was like listening to like, you know, the meters and soul live and, uh, Dave Matthews band. Like I had a bizarre combination of things and I was,

but I was still emo, you know, I just remember being sort of overwhelmed socially, which is always my, my state, you know, like I, I have, I love people so much and I I'm such an extrovert but I I need time alone and and the older I've gotten the more I the more I feel like I need time especially so this is where it gets interesting is that once I became really interested in songwriting I felt like I had to figure out how to sort of alter my life a little bit in order to accommodate songwriting because I realized it really requires alone time but at the same time it also requires experience life experience so it's a balance you know I can't be just like the guy who plays all the time because then I won't write anything and then if I don't write anything I get pretty bummed out so it's a it's a balance

you know and oh you were you were kind of asking like was it always about a solo thing and the answer is no it was more just that I wanted I wanted to sing and I wanted to write songs so and play them with with my friends so that looked like a band when I had people that were on board for that, you know? And then once I went to college, I joined a different kind of like electronic dance rock band. And I realized after a couple of years of that, even though that was with my best friends, that I wasn't playing the role that I feel I need to play in in my life which is like I just want to sing I want to sing and I want to write lyrics yeah when I went to college I went to school for drums because I was able to I always studied drums in school but then I'd play guitar after school with in my rock band in high school

yeah I just figured oh it's time to go to college like i'll audition on drums i got into the program on drums that was what i was most competent at and in terms of like legitimate music education and were you singing your ass off yet i was singing a lot yeah but i but that's the funny thing is i spent all of high school doing that but then i went to college and i i got into the jazz program for drum set and i had a basically had an identity crisis because i was like oh crap i don't want to do that so why'd you pick in the first place it's a good question um i i didn't really there i didn't know there was any alternative i'm not sure there really was for me at the time i couldn't go study singer songwriter-ness or something at a jazz school right i guess i could have gone to berkeley but i i didn't i wasn't on my radar really

why michigan you know my mom went there and she said she liked it. She said, she was like, I really think you'll like the vibe and they have a good music program. Just go do an audition. And I didn't, my mom did not, I did not grow up with my parents telling me about their colleges. I don't, I couldn't have even told you where either of them went to college until I started applying for colleges. Like literally no mention of it. My parents were not like collegiate type, like hail to the victors, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't,

that wasn't the vibe at all. Um, but yeah, basically my mom put Michigan on my radar. I went and checked it out and I ended up falling in love with the campus. And I also got a scholarship. So then it was kind of like, all right,

go check this out, you know? Um, so yeah, I think because I went in there for drums, I was, I sort of had maybe, uh, you said, why'd I do that? I guess it was cause I, yeah, I got, I got some scholarship money and I, I just had been thinking like, well, you study music in school and then you do whatever you want outside of school. What it hadn't occurred to me is that

in college, you know, all your time is going into that, like so much of your time. So I basically, yeah, I joined, I was, I was kind of a rebel student by accident because I just didn't really want to be a jazz drummer. And, but I was the guy that they had selected that year to do that in the program. And so I kind of had to have a heart to heart with my professors who ultimately were supportive and could recognize that I was a good musician, but I just was confused about what I wanted to spend my time doing. And, uh, which I think is pretty normal for like an 18 year old, if you ask me. Yeah. It's like changing a major, dude, whatever. Right, right, right. So I ended up playing guitar in this band.

I was playing rhythm guitar. But yeah, after a couple of years of that, even though it was my best friends, I just realized like, I am not... Wait a minute. I haven't been singing my songs in years. This is crazy. And I really needed to leave the band and do my thing.

And at that point, I was alone. At that point, it was obvious that it was a solo thing because I didn't have my couple homies that were like, yeah, dude, let's be a band. How'd that make you feel when you found out you were alone? Well, I think it was both exciting and quite scary um at the time I was so ready for a change that I really let it wash over me in a positive way it was like all right man you're gonna you're go write some songs and I I did you know I made I made my first album. People kind of gradually moved out of Ann Arbor and I stayed and got a job at a music school teaching music.

And I started making a little bit of money doing that. And that felt great. And then I just was gigging on the weekends. And then I was working a restaurant job at my buddy's restaurant and getting my first album together and getting it recorded. And it was a great time in my life. You felt like Ann Arbor was a comfort blanket? Well, it wasn't until it was, you know, it wasn't until one day it told it was like, oh shit, I need to leave. Like now. What happened? I don't know. I just, I was,

I remember thinking like, wow, everyone's moving away, but I don't know I just I was I remember thinking like wow everyone's moving away but I don't want to leave like I'm so happy here yeah and then one day I just was like I think I remember there's a venue in Ann Arbor called The Ark and I had

played it by that point and I got actually the local slot at the ann arbor folk festival which was kind of big deal at the time because it was like i got to play hill auditorium with on the same bill as like mavis staples and glenn hansard and all this stuff you know sick bro i didn't get to meet Mavis, unfortunately. But it was a big deal.

And Citizen Cope and all these big artists. So were you the only one of the local acts that they picked? Like one Michigan act that they would try to bring up through the arc. At least they were doing that then. And I got it that year. And I was really stoked to do that. And then after that, I remember maybe a couple weeks after, I was teaching at the little music school I taught at,

which the front of the music school looks at the back of the arc. So you would see tour buses roll up. And one day I just saw a tour buses roll up. Yeah. And I just like one day I just saw a tour bus roll up. And I was like, oh, shit. I got to get out of here. Like, I got it. I got to get on that friggin tour bus. It is halftime at the Endy Fresco interview hour.

Oh, these people. Stocking up on face masks. It is half time at the Andy Fresco interview hour. Oh, these people! Stocking up on face masks, you know what they do. They rob you of your money to save you from the flu. Everyone is suspect, even me and you. Better do it DIY, and this is how I I do Grandpa died cause he dried up So did his handkerchief With rubber bands I made it a mess But it had too much relief

A piggery hick from round the bend Known by the name of Mike He grabbed a hawk and took its snout Now them look all alike Beware the mask, beware the mask, beware the mask. It robs you from your breath. Beware the mask, beware the mask, beware the mask. It holds the ring of death. My best friend was a teddy bear I called him Mr. Hare Seams and stuffing I tore out I called him Mr. Hair. Seams and stuffing I tore out, but he's too itchy to wear.

I had a date with Snow White Skin, known by the name of Sue I skinned and tanned and crusted her Now she's my face mask new Beware the mask, beware the mask, beware the mask It robs you from your breath Beware the mask, beware the mask, beware the mask, beware the mask. It holds the grin of death. So if your face is round and red with spots and allergies, yes, corona is your fault, but you will be safe from me.

So you didn't really gig hard until your mid-twenties? Besides locally? Well, that's the thing. I didn't, like, gig big, but I gigged hard. If that makes sense. So what? Like, how many shows were you doing oh man i don't know i did a lot of shows with with with my dear disco my college band and we we played all over

the country man we like but really stupid shit you know like in terms of driving so like we ran a a short bus we bought a short bus and ran it on waste vegetable oil. You guys are fucking crazy. It was totally crazy. And like it burnt us all out. I mean, I don't know how many shows we did, but we definitely toured and we toured kind of before the internet was really being used as promotional tool

with social media and whatnot. So we were kind of just trying to like get the word out and send CDs to radio stations. It was like gnarly. Pain in the ass. Yeah, it was gnarly and it was,

I wouldn't trade it for the world. It was an amazing experience. But, but, um, basically after looking at that tour bus and I met a couple people at that Ann Arbor Folk Festival and they all lived in New York. And then I met,

um, a couple people who played with Ingrid Michelson. I met Chris Kuffner and Bess Rogers and Allie Moss. I don't know if you know those. Where'd you meet them, in Michigan? I met them in Michigan somehow, maybe through the Folk Festival, or I think Ingrid was playing the Ark one night, and I met them at like a house party oh yeah do you know Charlene K yeah what Charlene

had a house party yeah she was a Michigan person too what the fuck dude we know all these homies dude okay so Charlene had a party and I went to it and like Bess and Chris and Allie were all playing at the party that That was what it was.

And I met them and we kind of hit it off. And Chris and I stayed in touch. And then I had that moment where I was watching the tour bus outside of my teaching job. And I was like, man, I got to get on that tour bus. And everybody I had met who was doing it in music lived in New York at the time. And so I called Chris one day. And I was like, hey, man, I'm just putting the word out, ready, lived in New York at the time. And so I called Chris one day and I was like, hey man,

I'm just putting the word out, ready to move to New York. Or I texted him that. And he called me like immediately and he's like, yo, I live with my wife and we have this upstairs unit

and our longtime homie just moved out. Like, do you want it? It's $1,000 a month a month and i was like holy crap was that a big step for you because how much was rent in michigan oh it was probably 250 300 man so were you nervous and who who convinced you into doing it well i lived i i basically i had a girlfriend and at the time and, and we were in love the whole nine, so it was like, hey, let's move to New York together. I basically called my mom and dad, and we're like, ugh, this opportunity,

but it's really expensive. And they're like, how much is it? I was like, $1,000 a month. And they're like, your own apartment in New York? They're like, if you don't take it, we'll take it. My parents were longtime New Yorkers, so it was like... Did you grow up with money?

I mean, we weren't like, we were definitely not wealthy, but we, I never, I felt like, I never had thought like, man,

we don't have enough food. You know, like we were, we were totally, I feel very lucky. I definitely was fortunate to grow up in that. And also my parents

were so supportive of the music thing because my dad's a professional musician and my mom's the daughter of two professional musicians. So it was just in your blood. So they told you, listen, if you're not going to take this,

this dream, this, I do, no one could get rent for a thousand fucking dollars. You'll get your ass to New York. Yeah, exactly. They,

they, they, they, they were, they, they basically said that. And I, and I, I i mean i'm looking

back like i'm very lucky that i had i had a couple i've been lucky with uh with that kind of timing you know with signs it's like all right that's the time to move to new york a couple years later when shit had kind of fallen apart for me and you know i had broken up with a girlfriend and we weren't living together anymore and i had to move out and it was like all right universe where's my sign i put out a bunch of signs and it was like not new york bro it was like no no no no no i was like what about that no no i was like i couldn't get it was like oh man i can't get my like 500 rent oh like nope you know because i was splitting that so i was paying 500 so what were you doing to make the rent work to get to get you by that's the thing i was i sort of like

moved to new york and was like i can play drums i can play bass i can play guitar i can sing i can write i can produce take me you're taught when you say take me you say New York give me some put me in the vibes put me somewhere you know and a lot of people I played drums with Caleb and then I got a did some production work with Teddy Geiger

and then I would go back to Michigan and do my gigs also you know so it's like oh cool I'll do this back to Michigan and do my gigs also, you know? So it's like, oh, cool. I'll do this festival in Michigan. And then I would go to Michigan and record. And then I sort of started having this like between Michigan and New York thing going on. And wherever I could basically make money and do music, I was kind of doing it. And that took me, uh, eventually one day,

Darren, Chris called me and he was like, yo, things are, things are about to get crazy for me. Was this the Glee right before Glee? Yeah. He's like, I just got on Glee and like, it's about to get crazy. And I'm like, wow, that's wild. You know? And he's like, yeah. And, and Darren was always a fan of my music and we were always home he's in Michigan but we were in he was in the theater scene and I was in the music scene predominantly so he's like you know come out to LA I want you to meet you know I basically have a record contract now and I want to come out to LA and meet um meet the cats that I'm working with and And so I'm like, okay. Were you riding with Darren in Michigan? We weren't riding together in Michigan, I don't think, if I remember correctly.

But we were, you know, we were kind of admiring each other from afar a little bit, but we would hang when we could, but we were both really busy. So Darren kind of calls me out, and then all of a sudden I'm working on a record on Columbia Records. His record or your recordia records like his record or your record yeah his record yeah it's like it was sick it was it was crazy but then it was like

start going out to la and i noticed this this thing happening in la and by the way i had gone i would go out to la every couple maybe a couple times a year because I'd go hang with Joey. Joey Dostick who moved out there from Michigan. Joey's from LA originally so Joey had a lot of deeper... Is he a Valley kid? Where is he from? Yeah, yeah. He's a Valley kid. Yeah, I feel that vibe. I never met him but I feel like he's a fucking Valley kid

like me. Yeah, where in the Valley are you from? I'm from Canoga Park. I don't know anything about the Valley. I'm going to get him on the show. I'm going to grill him about the Valley. But keep going. So Joey Dasik, you were riding with him. You started riding with Chris. Yeah, so

basically I would come out to LA and I noticed that when I was out there and I'd meet Joey's homies, they'd be like, oh, Theo, you want to hey, what are you doing Friday night? And I was like, nothing. I get out of work with Darren at six or whatever. It's like, all right, come down to like Perch or downtown. We got, you know, and I'd come in and sit in with somebody that have a gig, like on the rooftop. And they were kind of playing background music and getting paid and,

and, you know, getting dinner and drinks. And it's like, wow, this is kind of a cool vibe. And then, then they're like, Hey, can you, can you fill in like tomorrow on drums? I'm like, wow, this is kind of a cool vibe. And then they're like, hey, can you fill in tomorrow on drums? I'm like, sure. I'm not doing anything. And then they're like, hey, can you fill in the next day on bass? And I'm like, okay. So I started, every time I'd come to LA, the phone would ring. I'd just tell, I'd call a couple people and I'd be like,

yo, I'm coming to town for a week to work with Darren. And then they'd be like, oh, dope. And inevitably there'd be like three or four gigs that I'd get and it started the light bulb just kind of went off it was like man you're working so hard in New York to try to like connect with people and

it's happening effortlessly out here maybe you should switch and you know I don't think it's I know there are other people who have had the reverse experience and I don't think it's I don't think it's like know there are other people who have had the reverse experience and I don't think it's like New York has no gigs like New York is a phenomenal place and there's tons of music and

I mean I know yeah a ton of friends live there and are crushing it in music so I think just for me it didn't really that ended up being LA and I had to luckily I was open to it so did you did Volf start in LA?

Okay, yeah. So Wolf started in Ann Arbor after I had quit that band, My Dear Disco. I had around that time met Jack Stratton and we were talking, we were hanging out a lot. Kind of, we became really good friends. Was that your best buddy back then definitely one of them and still is you know we we i have i have i'm fortunate in that i have like

a crew of people that i would consider all my best friends fucking awesome you know what i mean i i that's that's probably my greatest accomplishment in this life what keeping, keeping friends? That's my favorite thing. I feel like, man, I have the best friends. That's important, especially when we're on that roller coaster and we're on those low parts of our life. You need those boys. Absolutely. Was it always Jack's thing or was it both y'all's thing? Jack, no, it's always been It's always been Jack's thing.

And Jack basically, I have a kind of a funny story about that. Jack had this large band called Groovespoon and their bass player, their bass player left and Jack called me one day and he's like, hey, do you want to come in

and play some bass with us? And I had just quit this other band and I was like, look, man, I'd love to, but I can't do more than one gig a month or something because I had just quit this other band and I was like look man I I'd love to but like I can't do more than like one gig a month or something because I'm just like I gotta do my I just I just quit a band I can't join another band he's like no

no it's not gonna be like that not gonna be like that you know we'll just we'll just play probably play once a month once a month or max you know I'm like okay so Jack I come into the rehearsal the next day and I play like some Steely Dan tunes and Jack's

like yeah cool man sounds great you know got this one other guy coming tomorrow but like unless he's a total freak like you you know you got the gig I'm like okay cool and uh I called the next day and I'm like he's like hello I called him the next day and I'm like

he's like hello I go was he a total freak and he's like like in tears he's like he was a total freak and it was Dart it was Joe Dart wow so what

he pushed you to guitar well no I mean I was like hell yeah dude great Joe Dart. Wow. So what, he pushed you to guitar? Well, no, I mean, I was sort of like, hell yeah, dude, great. Did you know Joe Dart back then? I knew, I didn't. I think that's how I met Joe. But funny enough, I remember being, I remember playing Bliss Fest in Northern Michigan with My Dear Disco and this is probably in 2008 or something or 6 I don't know

and sometime around then and we had the like we had the best set you know we had the like late night dance set on Saturday night. But then the local high school band

had gotten the Friday night set. So we were there checking them out and we were kind of hating on it, being a bunch of idiots. Young, competitive. We're like, what do these guys got? Bring it! I remember sitting there watching them with young competitive right we're like yeah what what are these guys got right i remember i remember

sitting there watching them with with uh with my the bass player in the band and we're like what are these guys you know what are these oh you're gonna play some jam band what are they gonna do you know we're gonna get a jam you know and then they they can start playing and we're like yeah whatever whatever and then at some point like my friend turns to me, the bass player, and he's like, man, bass player is like incredible. And I'm like, yeah, dude, he's blowing my mind. You know, like the bass player. We just keep talking about the bass player.

It turns out that that was 14 year old Joe Dart. Oh, my God. So he was that young and you guys were. Oh, yeah. So he's four years younger than you? Joe's I think five years younger than me currently.

Who's aging quicker, you know? Yeah, yeah. But Joe, in other words, I was probably 19. I guess I was 19 at the time and I didn't know I was watching Joe Dart. I wouldn't end up meeting him until he was like he was 19 at the time and I didn't know I was watching Joe Dart I wouldn't end up meeting him until he was like he was 19

18 or 19 so I met Joe probably when he was 18 and anyway after the Groovespoon thing I was basically I quit My Dear Disco and I was determined to do my solo project and I did it and I started working around Michigan

I didn't know anything about the music industry, man. I just knew about like Michigan, you know, and I knew about like where there were gigs and I, and I knew you could get like 1500 bucks for the weekend playing at, you know, in, in Marquette, Michigan, in the, in the upper peninsula, like at this, at this bar. And it was like let's okay we're going there and then we're going to Lansing we're gonna play Max or whatever you know it was like we're just gonna play

wherever we can play and out of that at some point Jack called and was like hey our friend is doing his senior thesis for his recording engineer degree and he wants to record a band on tape, Jack just put me, Dart, Woody, and himself together.

We played a couple tunes in the studio. No rehearsal. Filmed it. You wrote all those songs without rehearsing? Jack did, yeah. And then you guys said, let's fucking ride. It wasn't even that. Yeah, it was like an experiment

for our friends like project and then we and then we sort of was like oh that was cool and then one of the videos caught on on like no trouble.com or something and then and then it kind of became a thing but it was always a side project you know it was always like yeah it just was never something that that we thought was a band. And we resisted calling it a band for a long time. And until people were like, it's a band. It's great music. I love the guys.

And it gave me a ton of experience, you know, just in terms of like singing and stage and performing and like, you know, getting to learn how to play to 15,000 people. Yeah, fucking masses for a garden too, dog. It's crazy. Going home and playing the fucking garden. That's kind of shit, dude.

Come on. Yeah, it was really, really incredible experience. Basically, no matter what happens in your life, I'm finding like you still have your North Star and you have to deal with it. Yeah, I agree. And you don't choose it. It's like I would love to be,

I think I would love to be in a collaborative band where I'm writing the songs, but I haven't found that yet. So it's like, it's a solo thing until it's not sort of, and there's momentum under the, luckily for me, there's momentum under the solo thing just because my North star is like, I want to sing and I want to sing about things that I feel. So I sort of feel like I'm going to be the one writing the lyrics, or at least a significant amount of them. And that's kind of it.

I don't, beyond that, I don't really care what it is. But it's, for now, it's Theo Kassman, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, well, it's past Theo Kassman. It's about playing art for authenticity. I mean, we're not just doing art for our shits and giggles, right? Totally, man. No, I know.

Exactly. And that's where it gets... I think there's also just practical things. As you get to be in your 30s, it's like not everybody wants to jump in the freaking van anymore. And I get it. Totally power to them if they don't. I totally get it.

Yeah, I'm down, dude. I'm down, I'm down. Starts down. Work smarter, not harder. As we turn into our 30s, right? Yes, definitely. But that thing is still there of finding the balance, but knowing that you gotta make your music. So yeah, the, the Wolf thing has been a blessing,

you know, Jack, Jack is the leader and he's the strategist. So any decisions about playing or not playing ultimately are, are, are what are his call? You know, he's, I don't know that he's as much of a live guy as I am in terms of what he enjoys. I don't know that he's as much of a live guy as I am in terms of what he enjoys. Yeah. I mean, I think he's one of the best performers I've ever seen. I think he's a phenomenal performer.

But I know that he gets, he really gets off like doing the videos and doing the production and doing the internet stuff. Yeah. I'm sort of the reverse, you know. You want to be out there. Well, I want to be out there

and I want to be in here and I want to be in here. I want to be like writing and then I want to be playing. And that's kind of it. If I could, if I never made a video for the rest of my life and I just made records and toured, like happy as a clam. I'll figure out how to make a damn video, but it's not, it's not. It's not going to be Jackie. It's not Jack.

It's like, that's not where I'm at. You know? I mean, I love, yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not going to be Jackie. It's not Jack. It's like, that's not where I'm at. You know? I mean, I love, yeah, it's not where I'm at. I probably shouldn't say that, but it's true. No, I mean, why, who cares? I mean, everyone has their own identity. It's like, I, that's the same thing with me. Like right now I can't tour, but I want to, I've started this talk show and I started, I love Howard Stern. He's my favorite. Yeah, right on. We figure out ways to make our brain stop judging our life, right?

Right on, man. What about you? What are some things, insecurities you still have about your life at 30, what are you, 34? I think I'm 34. I'm 32. 86. I think I'm 34. 34, I'm 32. 86. Nice.

88, yeah, what up? I'm 30, I'm 34. 34 and there's so much more. What are you overthinking at 34 years old? Yeah, right. You know, Theo Casman, you know. I mean, I'm definitely overthinking a lot of shit. I mean, I'm definitely, you know,

songwriting is not any easier than it ever was. And I'm definitely, you know, songwriting is not any easier than it ever was. It's, you know, I get freaked out about not being good enough. Not being good enough? Yeah. I didn't mean that like condescendingly. Like, what do you feel like you're that you're not good at as a songwriter

not reaching as much of my potential as I could I mean it's all ego shit it's all so ridiculous when you say it you're like even just me saying that and you being like what what the hell am I talking about I'm the same way I'm always thinking I'm not good enough. And like,

like what, how do we turn off the ego to make us do our best work? Because when we, when we're feeling insecure, we're not doing our best work. We're feeding the ego. I know. I think the closest I've, there's two things that I've come across that have really, really like made an impact on me in this way. One is the book, the war of art by Steven Pressfield. I'm going to read that. What?

Right. That, that war of art, you read it in like an hour and a half. Tell me about it. Give me the synopsis. Basically. He's a former Marine who,

who like was resisting the, the call to be an artist. And he kind of, like, his life ended up in shambles. And then he was like, holy shit, I gotta be a writer. And then he started writing. And he has basically come up with this, like, manifesto of what it feels like to be an artist for him. And what it feels like to battle what he calls resistance which is i would say the the calculation that your nervous system makes when you think you have something to lose which is to say like oh andy's gonna do andy's gonna sit down for an hour

and try to get better at piano oh shit yeah better. Better not do that, Andy. What if it doesn't go well? What if you try your best and it turns out you're not that good? That's what we're all afraid of. We're not afraid of... Do you know what I mean? Letting ourselves down? I think it comes from the deeply rooted

fear of rejection from the community that we all have in us as humans and it's like it's like oh oh look at you up there on the billboard what you got you know that's what happened with bring it back to MJ with Michael Jordan

you know after he won the third championship in a row there was nothing he could have done but fail because he could either meet people's expectations, which is he's going to win another championship, or he could fail, but he wouldn't be exceeding anyone's expectations.

Yeah. You know what I mean? I totally agree. Between championship two and three, that was something like no one's ever done this shit. Yeah. So he's still fighting for something. Yeah.

And then I'm not saying that's why he quit. I mean, he had a lot of personal stuff going on, but like after that third championship, I noticed in the interview, they're like, how do you feel? And he goes,

relieved. Yeah. And then they're like, do you feel like happy or any joy? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a little bit yeah but mostly relieved

you know what I mean like you can't that amount of pressure is so hard to fathom but it's the same thing if you feel like you've ever made a good album it's like Jesus that was my next question when you first put out your first solo record under a big label

was it a big I don't know first solo record under a big label, was it a big, I don't know. I thought it was a big, no, I'm actually, I've never been with a label actually. I'm still. Yeah.

No label. Fucking rock and roll. That's what I'm fucking talk about. Theo, you fucking put that shit out. But like, I never had any offers. If you're listening labels,

I never had an offer. Labels. What the fuck are you doing? Theo Katzman is on the market. Get the fuck to it. Jesus Christ. But like, seriously though, when is that the market. Get the fuck to it. Jesus Christ. But like, seriously though, is that the kind of the feeling you felt

when you first put out your solo record? My first solo record, I think I was really stoked because I kind of was proving that I was something. You are lovable by yourself. Yeah, I was like, this is me, goddammit. And I definitely had a feeling of like, there's a great feeling that you get when you,

I don't know if you've had this feeling when you finalize something like a record and you're like, okay, this is as good as I am and I am no better than this. Yeah. But it's such a relief because it's like, now you don't have to keep thinking about it. It's like, there's Andy Frasco.

Yeah, that's me. Sports and that that's that's a good feeling and um you know so that album felt that way and then I kind of like I told you I moved to New York and I tried to make a living and I tried to break into the music industry and I just really didn't understand the concept of like have a job and then be an artist I sort of was trying to make the music thing be the job and it took it took me like I it and then my father passed away in 2013 and I had this breakup and I I basically fell off my horse pretty hard and it took me like there's a five year gap between my first album and my second album. I hadn't really become an artist yet. You know, I was, I was trying to make a living. I was, I had moved.

I didn't understand what was next for, for the path of the solo artist. And I, I, you know, I was playing drums in people's bands, touring with them. And then I was producing tracks for other people. My brain, I was scattered everywhere. So were you doing all these things to distract yourself from you overthinking?

Honestly, I think I just was trying so hard to pay my rent that I was, and I was trying to be everything for everyone else. Yeah. I really, I just, I just really got eaten up and it was necessary. And out of that came,

and I started making my record, my, what would be my second record in 2013. But then my dad died and I had this breakup and I had to move. I got depressed for like a year. Your dad passed away? Yeah, he was 85 years old. He had a good long life, but he died and it was tough.

It was tough timing to go through like the death and the breakup and moving and i just was like so i moved back to michigan and uh lived at my on my buddy's floor for damn your dad was fucking late dog he was he had you late dog he was late yeah well he had three other kids prior you're the baby different marriage yeah i'm a i'm the only child of my my my parents marriage okay cool man that's a lot to deal with though man yeah it was crazy time um yeah but i came out of it like with a clearer picture of what i wanted to do and yeah and then out then out of that also, that's kind of when Wolf started popping off, which was sort of like, again, it was like, whoa, what the heck is

this? You know, but I had a couple of years there in LA, 2015 through 2017, where I was like in town playing a lot, um, writing. And I came out with my second album and then I felt, I felt really proud of that. And then, you know, third album came out a couple of years after that. So I'm going to try to try to do one every couple year and a half, two years. No,

that's important, man. It's important. I know you're busy. Let me, I want to, I want to leave with this. Like,

first off, thanks for this this is amazing i feel like we're really getting to know each other a little we are man and we should talk more off of totally recordings totally you know be friends yeah but um i think we might be friends i have a feeling you know i think i mean i think we might have already you know yeah today we passed them yeah so you don't do you Do you go to a therapy? Do you have a therapist? Yeah, I talk to a therapist every once in a while

or whenever I feel like I need to, yeah. What was the triggering point to make you feel like you needed therapy? Well, when I was going through, when I was dealing with a lot of grief out of the death of my dad and the breakup and the moving thing that I went through, I definitely went to,

you know, started seeing a therapist out in LA and it's just like really helpful to talk to somebody that you don't, that you're not bumming them out. You know, you can't, you're not worried you're bumming them out cause it's like not your homie, even though it's really valuable to have homies that you can talk to.

But now, now I have somebody that I can, it's actually over the phone and it's really valuable to have homies that you can talk to. Um, but now, now I have somebody that, uh, I can, uh, it's actually over the phone and it's, uh, so kind of a different approach and I,

I like it a lot. Um, it's a little more like, uh, sort of philosophical, um, psychological stuff that I can kind of consider and, and evaluate my situation with.

Like what type of, you don't have to go into deep details, but like therapy is like kind of like rewiring your brain in a sense of like kind of figuring out who you were before and who you are now. How long did it take you to rewire through therapy to make you feel better about yourself? Well, I don't, yeah, I don't know if I did rewire anything. I think I just became aware of certain patterns, you know? Like what? I mean, you gotta, well, you just gotta be on the lookout for your, that's why I like meditation practice, is supposedly if years of this stuff, you got to, well, you just got to be on the lookout for your, that's why I like meditation practice is supposedly if years of this stuff, you know, you start to be able to notice, you just notice something quicker.

You notice this train of thought, a pattern, like a, like a negative thought, um, a positive thought, all that stuff, you know? And I think it's really important to, to, to try to like catch yourself. And if you, and journaling was helpful, you know, it's like, look, if you flip through the pages of your journal and you, and you flip back a year and a half and you're writing about the same thing, it's like, maybe it's time to make a change. Yeah. Oh, wow. I didn't think about that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, totally. And, and, and you can't get down to yourself for, let it, for things take however long they take, you know? Um, but, uh, I mean, I just,

like, I came back from this tour. I was just on tour and it's like really hard for me to transition out of tour for some reason. Do you deal with that? Yeah. A hundred percent. I, they call it the,

uh, you know, it's like the come down, the come down, you know, like the first couple of days, you don't know what the fuck to do. Like,

that's the thing. Like you, you basically got off a tour and went into quarantine. that must have been fucking hard it was crazy you know it didn't i i sort of hit the ground running and then like a couple weeks later i started to like sort of i was like oh shit this is what the hell's going on i'm disintegrating especially in la where you're stuck in all summer it's like you just gotta stay busy right yeah i'm trying to i'm trying to stay busy but also let let this time kind of teach me what yeah what some of those things are i mean nobody really knows what's next it's a weird feeling it's like what's next and i and i i think for me

and a lot of my friends um the people i'm close with there's there's the scene has kind of been building and now it's sort of like what's next. And I think for a lot of people there, they're in a transition period and certainly the world is. So be interesting to see what happens out of that. I'm very curious. All right. I got one last thing. So when you writing all these journals, you know, at the end of your life, hypothetically, you know, if you're not writing journals, it's all good. Um, yeah. The end of the life, when you give out your yearbook, your life book, what do you want to be remembered by?

Oh, man. Oh, man. I don't know if I've ever. Yeah. Hmm. I'm thinking of that. I saw a sign in Dublin once on the side of a house. Yeah.

It said, like, so-and-so lived here. Author, or it said so-and-so, like someone's name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Author of many plays lived here. I thought that was kind of cool. It was like, ah,

wrote many plays. Like, that's what that fucking guy did, you know? So you want to be a songwriter you want to be remembered as a songwriter honestly i just want to i mean maybe i don't know i want to i want to write songs uh i want to get over myself and write and write them and not not worry about if they're good or not which is is very hard to do. And, uh, anyone who's tried knows,

but I know people who kind of don't care anymore or they're, they got their 50 and they fucking broke through that, or maybe they never did or whatever. Yeah. But, uh, getting there with, with songs,

being on that journey. And I just, and I want to have a family and I want to have a lot of friends, you know? Well, that's it. You're on your path. I'm looking forward to celebrate your life with you,

buddy, while you're still alive. Cause we're going to be fucking friends now, baby. I'm just going to send you, I'm going to send you dick pics. Thanks, Fresco.

No, man. That's amazing. You're like, you know, he's looking forward to celebrate your life with you while you're still alive. Thanks for throwing that one in there. Oh,

no problem. Theo, thanks for one in there. No problem. Theo, thanks for being on the show, man. It's very nice to meet you. And everything my friends said about you, they're all right. So you're a good guy. Same, dude. Dude, cheers, bro. Well, have a great day in LA.

You too, my man. I'll send you a text here and let's be friends. You should be on my talk show, dude. It's like 10 minutes. Oh my God, I'm doing your talk show? We play a game. Yeah, dude, I'm addicted to work, bro. So yeah, we'll talk show, dude. It's like 10 minutes. Oh my God, I'm doing your talk show? We play a game. Yeah, dude, I'm addicted to work, bro. So yeah, we'll talk about it later.

But Theo, I love you, bro. And just stay up, man. And I got your back. Anyone else you need. Love you, bro. Same, man. Cheers, bro. Later, pal.

Later. Don't you want somebody to love when you're lonely? Don't you want somebody to lighten your load? Don't you want somebody to lighten your load? Don't you want somebody to think of you when you're away? Don't you want somebody to make you your breakfast? Songs that'll do the do-do-draining Talking over coffee in the living room Don't you want somebody to watch all your favorite shows with baby

Don't you want somebody, somebody like me And as the world keeps spinning We'll keep living by each other's side Until we pass on through this life It's you and I It's you and I Until we pass on through this life It's you and I

You and I You and I, you and I, you and I, you and I. Don't you want somebody to figure you out? Finishing your words before they leave your mouth. Somebody told you you're tough at the end of the day. Don't you want somebody, somebody like me? And as the world keeps spinning We'll keep living by each other's side Until we pass on through this life

It's you and I life It's you and I It's you and I Until we pass on through this life It's you and I You and I You and I You and I You and I It's you and I

You and I You and I You and I It's you and I It's you and I All right. Thanks, Theo. What a great conversation. Good guy.

We have a lot of mutual friends. He's just, he just got a good heart, and he's a hard worker, and he's just passionate about music. And fuck, every project he's done is pretty badass. And so shout out to you, Theo. Ladies and gentlemen, big, big co-host welcome, my boy. He's been on the World's Same Podcast a bunch. Give it up for Mr. Ari Fink. Ari Fink. Yeah. Yeah. What a welcome, man. It's so good to be here, Andy.

And Theo, legend in his own right. Dude, you guys kind of like brought Wolfpack up on SiriusXM. Jam on. Like, weren't you the first one to really play Wolfpack? I mean, we were the first national outlet to play Wolfpack way back in, I don't know what it was, maybe 2014, maybe 2016. It's all blur at this point. But, you know, we've been rocking with them for a very long time. And it's been an incredible, incredible thing to watch their ascent and their growth and to see what they've been able to do, you know, both individually and together as a collective. what they've been able to do, both individually and together as a collective. So if people don't know who Ari is,

Ari is Program Director at SiriusXM. You're doing Phish Radio. You're doing... Are you still doing Dave Matthews Radio? Yeah, Dave Matthews Band Radio as well. And your baby. You're not doing Pearl Jam anymore, right? Not as much, not as much. I programmed Pearl Jam Radio for several years,

going on, I would say, five years. And so, handing that one off and focusing on Fish and Dave and also still have a hand in Jam On as well. Because you're a boss, bitch, baby. That's what I'm fucking talking about.

You're a boss. Delegate the work like a fucking G. That's what I'm talking about. Let's first talk about, has more people been listening to radio since the quarantine? It's a great question. And I think that people are listening

to radio differently now. And in some respects, they are listening more. People are looking for entertainment. They're looking for event-style programming. They're looking for a reason to tune in and get connected. And so we try to provide that even more so now than ever.

I've been busier in the past three months than I pretty much ever have my entire life. What are you working on? What's keeping you busy? Well, Pearl Jam put out a new album at the end of March. And then Phish Surprise announced and released a brand new studio album, which had fans going nuts,

all in the scope of this stay-at-home order. And then from there, we relaunched Dave Matthews Band Radio. And so that, along with helping some of the other hosts across the SiriusXM platform get caught up and ready to go remote from their houses and being broadcast ready from a technical side are the things that I've

been working on the most. I mean, you don't really need to be at the fucking in New York, in the city, baby. You got your own home studio. Why do they make you go to the office? It's awfully nice to be able to broadcast from anywhere all around the world. I mean, we've been doing remote broadcasts for many years at this point, whether it's festivals or concerts or events. And so we've been preparing for this and we've been ready for this in a lot of respects.

But for a platform that has 250 music hosts alone, just on the music side, getting everybody ready to go and up to speed from home has definitely been, you know, it takes some legwork. It's a lot of work, but are streams up?

That's what my question is. Well, it's a great question. Streams in general are a smidgen down, but it seems like people are streaming differently now. People are looking for comfort food. A lot of the classic rock stuff and country and acoustic singer-songwriter stuff is actually seeing a big spike compared to what was really, really popular

and being consumed previously. And so I think users and consumers' tastes are evolving and everyone's getting adjusted to the new normal at this point. And people's music consumption goes right along with that. You went into a profession where you have a bunch of suits telling you what to listen to. Does that piss you off? Not piss you off. Does that frustrate you?

No, that's not exactly the way it works. They don't tell me what to listen to. They just tell me how to monitor what I'm listening to, to see if it's resonating with my audience. So it's a very data-driven, metrics-driven field where they actually tell me to go and find music that I believe in and then monitor the data to see if it resonates. When we first started playing Andy Frasco in the UN, it was one of those, well, this dude seems to be bubbling up and I don't even know what the first song is that we started playing of yours, but change of pace, we saw it resonating, we saw it streaming, We saw it selling. All of a sudden, we're watching the data. We saw the ticket sales go up and we go, guess what? This is actually happening. And so that means that we need to continue supporting it and support it more, as an example. But with that being said, does that ruin the fun of it?

No, no. It's a very, very calculated approach and I respect it. I think it does make sense and I will give the people that I work for credit 1,000% that they tell us to go out and find bands that we believe in and give them a shot. I'm told at least once

a month, if not twice a month, to go out, find bands that we believe in and if you believe in them, give them a shot and monitor the data and go from there. Shout out to fucking Sirius. I'm saying, and not only that, Andy, I know you had Theo Kassman on earlier, but

dude, we support artists in such a huge way monetarily. I mean, people don't understand we pay 5,000 times more per spin than the other streaming services. I know, bro. I get that paycheck from you, and I thank my lucky stars that I have an Ari Fink on my fucking side. It's not me.

It's the people. It's the populace. It's the audience responding to your music. I am merely a portal. I'm merely a representative of that portal. I'm watching the data, figuring out what the audience wants to hear, and trying to do my best to serve that. Well, shout out to

you. Shout out to Sirius. Shout out to you guys for just keeping the music alive. I love that about you, and I love that about Sirius, so thank you so much. Dude, thank you, and shout out to you for entertaining all of us. All these hundreds of thousands of views all across all the fucking platforms with the show i love the bits that you're doing you're putting people on the spot you're entertaining you're utilizing all

your skills you're bringing in all your your friends and and your compatriots to really create an incredibly engaging experience for fans. And not to mention that new record is fucking great. And I just, just realized that last song on the record is my favorite. You said that right when I sent you it. Did I? I don't remember saying that.

Better days is better days. That's great, man. And what do you think the future of Wolfpack holds in Theo Katzmann? I think Wolfpack will become like the Rat Pack. Hey, this is Scott Long, my buddy.

Scott, this is Ari Fink from SiriusXM. Great to see you, man. We got a beautiful place. We're making a podcast. I'm going to catch up and see how you did on Fission here pretty soon. All right. I think it's like a Rat Pack.

I think Wolfpack is what started it, and I think everyone's going to branch out and do their own thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're all incredibly talented. I saw Joe Dart playing bass on other records, and Theo's been doing that art house pop music singer-songwriter scene in LA for a long time but it's incredible to see them scale and to see

people go nuts. Yeah, it's amazing. Hey, one last thing. Before we sign off, by the way, thank you. We're never turning this off. We're not leaving. This is a good conversation. I feel like we need to release this later for musicians. Just in case.

One thing. You've been now with your family for three months. Or two and a half months. I've had FaceTimes with you in the morning and your kids are fucking screaming like it's Lord of the Flies up at this motherfucker. It's wild. Yeah. have you lost

your mind oh so many times are you kidding me so many times there and back just like everybody else to the point where you're just like put on your clothes please and it's it's pajamas at 1 p.m and they're just like i'm never putting on my clothes ever never never I'll get naked, but I'm never putting on my clothes next thing you know, there's clothes on the floor it's wild, but at the same time it's really fun and as you saw

we have a good time, we like to have fun and I love calling you early early in the morning right after the shit show, so I can show my kids this, listen, look careful out there I'm calling you early in the morning right after the shit show so I can show my kids this. Listen. Look. Okay? Be careful out there. Don't be. Don't be. Don't be. Don't drink too much out there. Don't have too much

fun. No. We've watched your show. We've watched your show and they love it. It's karma. For you being such a wild fucking creature when you're a kid. Of course your kids are going to be fucking wild animals because you're wild as fuck. We have a great time. It's a lot of fun. You never know what are going to be fucking wild animals because you're wild as fuck we have a great time it's a lot of fun you never know what's going to happen

and just like anything else we're figuring it out and we're taking it day to day that's all you can do is take it day to day and live in the moment Andy and you are mastering that exactly you taught me a bunch about being a talk show

host I mean I get notes from you saying no you should have done this You taught me a bunch about being a talk show host. I mean, I get notes from you saying, no, you should have done this. You should have done this. And I envy that. Not envy that. I can't make words today. I admire that because I need mentors like you

who I respect. So I respect the fuck out of you. So shout out to you, Ari Fink. Shout out to the World's Saved Podcast. And that's it, guys. That's it for today. Wear condoms. Okay, you're married.

People are fucking without condoms right now. We're going to be the new boomers, aren't we? You think there's going to be a whole bunch of babies? I think in like one month, there's going to be fucking people. There's going to be people pregnant like shit is sweet. Yeah, yeah. A lot of

babies and a lot of divorces. And it's going to be, you know, both of those sweet. Yeah, yeah. A lot of babies and a lot of divorces. And it's going to be, you know, both of those things. Absolutely, though. But, you know, at the same time, who knows? We'll see. I was about to go get a vasectomy right before all this happened. And then, you know, shut down the hospitals and close it out. Essential only.

And here we are. So I don't know what's going to happen. I bet. I'm going to bet 20 bucks you're pregnant. She's pregnant. She's pregnant. I already got two. I'm good. I'm good. Laying it up. You're cut are. I don't know what's going to happen. I'm going to bet $20 you're pregnant. She's pregnant. I'm good. I'm good. Laying it up, dude. You ain't pulling out. You ain't pulling out in quarantine. I know you.

You ain't pulling out. Always have, always will. Well, not always, but you know. Thanks for being on the show, Ari. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for coming out. It's been fun. We got a special. I'm going to keep you surprised on the guest because now I'm doing talk show stuff every week. So Ari, oh, you're going to be on the shit show next week.

I can't wait, Andy. I can't wait. And just to make one note here for everybody, I'm not telling Andy not to do this or not to do that. I'm just trying to yes and this motherfucker into greatness. Not that he's already there. Not that he's not already there, but I'm just trying to just add to what he's doing and tell him what i enjoyed and then throw additional ideas you got

to tell me does it annoy you when i'm like hey how about this bit how about this bit how about this because i'm always throwing i live for that i'm looking for a phil jackson ari you are my phil jackson let's fucking go i ain't scared about criticism. Come on, Gooty. We're heading to the Navajo Reservation. Let's go. Yeah, let's go. You're my Jewish Phil Jackson. I got some mushrooms upstairs. Let's go. I love you, buddy. Hey, go watch

Ari's show, SiriusXM. You're doing headbands, too. Yeah, headbands every Thursday night, 7 p.m. Eastern on Fish Radio Channel 29. I'm also on Monday through Friday, 3 p.m. to midnight Eastern, Channel 29. You can find me on Twitter at Finkerton, Instagram at AriDanielFink. Look at him. He knows how to pitch.

He knows how to sell. This is why he's my fucking Phil. Thanks, buddy. I love you. And I love your fans. I love you. Yeah. I mean, you built a lot of my fans.

I mean, my fan base is both. A lot of them are your fans. I love you. Yeah. I mean, you built a lot of my fans. I mean, my fan base is both. A lot of them are jam fans. And a lot of people who first saw me was because you played Change of Pace on SiriusXM. So I love you for that. And you're my ride or die, dog. I'll be a godfather for your third child. That's about to pop out. I'm putting 20 bucks on it.

All right, guys. Enjoy it. Have a great day. And I'll talk to you out. I'm putting 20 bucks on it. All right, guys. Enjoy it. Have a great day and I'll talk to you later. Bye, guys. You tuned in to the third season of Diverting Dialogues

at Andy Fresco's World Saving Podcast. Thank you for listening to episode 86 produced by Andy Fresco, Joe Angelow, and Chris Lawrence. Please subscribe,

rate the show on iTunes and Spotify so we can make this a worldwide phenomenon. For info on the show, please head to Instagram at world saving podcast. For more info on the blog and tour dates, head to andyfresco.com. Check out the new album, Keep on Keepin' On. Or let Andy entertain you at the Thursday Night Online Shit Show.

Or the occasional Sunday Night Dance Parties. Let's shake it while we can. This week's guest is Theo Katzman. Find him on theokatzman.com. K-A-T-Z. Katz. Special guests this week are Ari Findling, Sean Eccles, Caleb Hawley, and Arno Bakker.

I recorded this a week in advance, so whatever happens this week, I just stuck my head in the sand and said bye bye. I will be untouchable by future events. Whatever happens, I will be dancing, chasing butterflies and rainbows, enjoy the silver lining while gone fishing. Should you be a Muppet phone getting hit on the head with bad news every day while mumbling another day, another headache?

Please remember, don't be a Muppet phone. Yes, your world now is no bigger than you and yours, but we're all still connected. That's worth something, isn't it? Okay, see you next week. Unless I develop the taste for butterflies. They're supposedly very creamy. It's Presco, Fresco Games!

Fresco Games! Welcome to Fresco Games, our podcast series looking into the life and work of Andy Fresco and intending to reveal to the general public some of the terrible crimes and misdemeanors that have occurred. It's Fresco Games! If you embrace the hairy truth. But

first, a word from our sponsor. Wanker. Our sponsor. Wanker is an all-in-one hand platform where you can work up, work out, and release your podcast for free. Wanker. Your contribution to the world.

It's Fresco Gate! In this podcast series, we will give you inside information on the facts and figures of deeds. What is Andy's family relation to Hawaii? Has there been a precedent? What happened on the streets of Bamberg? How did he get his hands on three pounds a week? Has he ever played Columbia? And above

all, what is Andy Fresco's involvement in the biggest musical crime in history? Made low-quarter gates all time. It's Fresco Gate! There is a popular myth that the 1990s rock ballad Wings of Shame by the German band The Portions was actually written by the CIA to bring down the Iron Curtain and end the Cold War. And if you don't know about this, listen to the podcast under the same name.

It's interesting material and especially when you know what happened around Annie Fresco. It's interesting material. And especially when you know what happens around any fresco. It's Fresco Gate! What? It's been going on for a long time. It's a disgrace that it happened. It's Fresco Gate! If you look at what's gone on and you look at now, all this information that's being released,

and from what I understand, that's only the beginning. The crime is very obvious to everybody. It's Presco Gate! You know what the crime is. All you need to do is listen to the punk. It's Presco Gate! Starting right after this commercial break.