Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - EP 88: John Craigie

Episode Date: June 16, 2020

In a world beset by inequity perpetrated by a legion of lesser men, we breathlessly look for respite and find Andy Frasco dancing his tuchus off for y'all. Watch the funny man dance and find balance restored to your Saturday nights. And on the Interview Hour we welcome show favorite, John Craigie! Hear words of wisdom direct from the lips of this modern day legend. Dolav has strong feelings about sports and Arno fills the air with the sweet sound of satire. This is EP 88 and Black Lives Matter.  Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast Stream to support Black Lives Matter movement: Zoe Amira YouTube For more information on Andy Frasco, the band and/or the blog, go to: AndyFrasco.com Check out Andy's new album, "Keep On Keepin' On" on iTunes Spotify  Keep up with John Craigie johncraigiemusic.com Produced by Andy Frasco Joe Angelhow Chris Lorentz Audio mix by Chris Lorentz Featuring: Ahri Findling Brian Schwartz Dolav Cohen Arno Bakker  Shawn Eckels  Andee Avila

hey andy i just want to drop in give you a call and say that i had so much fun at your dance party last night honestly with all this covid stuff dancing and sweating made me forget this pandemic even existed anyway thanks for not letting me think about it for a night talk to you soon hey it's Schwartz uh hope you had a good weekend the dance party was fun um you got to figure out how not to have 22 people dancing without masks you know we are in the middle of a pandemic it's not done yet as much as a lot of ding-dongs want to go back to it uh and as a lot uh and as many people have amnesia in our country, I'm hoping you don't have amnesia and that you remember that we have a pandemic going on. I'm getting texts from Shappy. You got to just use that big old brain of yours and consider, A, it's unhealthy.

B, it sends a bad message. And C, you don't need to dance with 22 people you could bring one or two people into the stream at once and and that achieves the same result um please pull your head i'm not even gonna say it get your shit together. I'll talk to you soon. All right. And here we are. Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast. I'm Andy Frasco. How's everyone doing?

How's our heads? How's our minds? Are we staying straight? Are we staying focused? You know? It's crazy out there. People are protesting. It's been a little more quiet this week.

It doesn't mean we're still not fighting the good fight, because fuck yeah. And, you know, we're settling into this quarantine like shit is normal. It's not normal, guys. Don't forget how it was and how it's going to be soon. But how's everyone going? I'm out here. I'm working my ass off.

I'm smoking some 14er weed. I do like the 14er. I could smoke it. Normally I can't smoke weed during the day. But I could smoke this during the day. So if you're in Boulder, go buy some weed from them. They're fucking awesome. They're not like,

they're super nice guys. They love what we're doing and I want to support them too. So go find some 14er and smoke it. Tell them Frasco sent you. But that's it, guys. It's doing good, man. Fuck, I've been so busy

doing these dance parts. Dance part is blowing up, by the way. Shout out to everyone. Shout out to everyone. Fucking top 10 in the world, dance party is. And the shit show is, you know, top 30, which is great. I got two things in the billboard charts. And it's all because of y'all.

So thank y'all so much. And thanks for keep listening to the podcast. I got a great one for you. John Cray. I got John Craigie on the show, guys. Oh my God. I was like having a man crush on this motherfucker. You know how much I love Craigie. I always talk about him on the podcast, but I finally got him on the show and he's everything I always wanted him to be. And he's sweet and he's funny as fuck and just honest and he's a cool guy. So I can't wait for you to hear the interview.

It's just been fun. You know, I go through these ups and downs. I felt I had a really good week this week. I felt like I put on a really good shit show, built this content, you know, now that I don't have Danny or Dolav here for a little bit. Dolav's coming back next week, so shout out to Dolav. You're going to hear from Dolav today.

Yep. You're going to hear from Dolav today. He's doing a sports with Dolav for the halftime, but he's coming back into my arms. My boy, my best friend. He's going to come here for a couple weeks. We'll have some fun content for you with Dolav

in the building. Like I was saying, you know, you, you go through these ups and downs through these quarantines, through these quarantines, just one quarantine. And like last week, I felt like a piece of shit. I felt like I wasn't getting creative with the shit show and trying to like build content and stuff. And it's, you know, it's tough trying to, you know, build three shows, you know, I'm trying to like build content and stuff. And it's tough trying to build three shows. I'm trying to build a cool concept for the dance party, build for the podcast. And I'm not having a pity party,

but it's a lot of work. And some days you just don't feel inspired. And you feel like a piece of shit, like, ah, I should quit this shit. I'm running empty on the tank. But then you wake up on Monday and your brain is just like in a new gear. And we've got to look forward to those days

because honestly, life is all about ups and downs. And I keep talking about that throughout these couple of years, but it's true, you know? Our lows aren't always going to be lows. You know, that's not how life does it. It's the swings. If you can't accept the swings, that's true. Our lows aren't always going to be lows. That's not how life does it. It's the swings. If you can't accept the swings, that's different.

If you're always having a pity party, then shame on you. But if you just stay present and understand that we're going to have better days, no pun intended for my new single that just came out, but if we're going to have better days. No pun intended for my new single that just came out. But if we're going to have better days, it's going to happen. It could happen tomorrow. It could happen in a week. But we got to stay optimistic that things good are going to happen. And they will.

You know why? Because I believe in happiness and I believe in optimism and I believe in humanity. So I hope you do too. And I hope this podcast helps us all realize that we're in this shit together, this fucking shitty ass storm. You know, I lost all my gigs. I don't, I was looking at my numbers today.

I'm like, you know, I'm Jewish. So I like to look at the accounting books of how I'm going to survive in six months. So I always look ahead and, you know, I don't have any shows until now, like late September. Besides like the, I have guarantees, some people are going to hire us to like fucking play some bootleg basement or something.

And then I'll be like thirsty to, you know, want to play so bad. I'll be like, fuck yeah, I'll play your basement. So if you want want to play so bad I'm like fuck yeah I'll play your basement so if you want me to play your basement just holler at me give me a month I'm still working on the shit show but you know I get bored easy so I'm down to go out to wherever your hood is

and play some music with the boys get to see the boys but like I was saying it's hard to like stay optimistic when you look like all this shit's going down and like, Oh, I'm losing my job or whatever it is. Or you have no money and you got to figure out a transition or pivot, but like, let's think optimistically through pivots. Like pivots could be cool. You know, I'm just thinking about this. Like when was the last time I pivoted? I pivoted when, um, oh, in high school I was like fucking

everything. And, um, I was, I didn't realize I have any friends because I was so worried about just getting pussy and shit. And, um, I was like, no, I got to start asking, you know, stuff because I wouldn't, I don't even know why they'd call me their friend because I didn't know anything about them because I was so selfish in my own hunt for the vagina. I didn't think about my friends until later in my life, and now I do. Now I have real quality friends, and I consider that a pivot. It's like when we're forced to not do what we normally do and we have to adjust,

that's when we find out who we are. And I agree. I see that because I'm learning more about myself through this quarantine than I ever have ever in my life because I'm starting to think about myself again and not as, and not as the ego, but as just a human being who's just trying to reach out and, you know, and trying to get along with everybody and try to understand people's points of views and why people are fucking angry and why people are happy. And just so we could all just try to figure out this life together because life's fucking hard. If we don't have each other, then what do we got? You know, we talk about that a little bit with Craigie, how he was a heavy Catholic and then

turned agnostic. And I was like, oh, atheist, right? And he's like, no, it's different because it's unknown. I'm like, oh yeah. So I don't want to ruin the interview, but I'm like, oh, atheist, right? And he was like, no, it's different because it's unknown. I'm like, oh, yeah. So I don't want to ruin the interview. But I'm rambling now, but I'm serious. It's okay to feel low because that's life. Remember that's life. It's not always going to be like this. Don't think like we're stuck in this fucking nightmare forever because eventually we wake up and we see the wildflowers.

There's wildflowers outside my house. I'm like, this is fucking cool. I've never seen wildflowers. There's wildflowers outside my house. I'm like, this is fucking cool. I've never seen wildflowers. You know, or never, they're probably always out there, but I never really just stopped and looked at them. So maybe this is our time to stop and look at the flowers and enjoy the now.

Because we're never going to, hopefully we never experience this again. So we might as well, you know, enjoy the weirdness of this quarantine and be happy that we're fighting for something like this protest, because this is important too. All right, guys, I'm done ranting for now. Please enjoy John Craig. He's my favorite. And you already know that. And I got to ask him all the questions I've always wanted. It was kind of a selfish interview

because I was just asking him questions that I've always, you know, that to help me build my craft. But I hope you learned something from this because he's a really good guy. He's really smart and he's really sensitive. And I like this guy. All right, guys, I'll see you on the tail end. Love you.

All right. Next up on the interview hour, we have John motherfucking Craigie, y'all. This guy's the man. Chris, play some Craigie. Actually, play Manifesto. I know this is not, he's just putting out a new record.

It's out now, but you got to hear this Manifesto song. This is the reason why I fell in love with this guy because he's singing to the life of a musician. I know there's a lot of musicians who listen to this podcast and I hope you really listen to these lyrics because it's what we're doing it's not about the money it's about the experience

and I think his philosophy on how life is just little steps of keep moving forward just don't think of the big steps think of the little steps and I learned a lot from this so ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my new friend.

Fucking excited I can even say that. Mr. John Craigie. Let's get one thing straight. Bob Dylan never played here. Joni Mitchell never sang here. Dr. King never preached here. This is a new stage This is a new space

And even if they had What would it matter anyway Cause the ghosts of the past cannot bring me any luck All that matters is tonight All that matters is tonight Ghosts of the past cannot bring me any luck. All that matters is tonight.

All that matters is tonight. And tonight, all that matters is whether or not I suck. Because it doesn't matter all the hype you heard Or the fact that you may or may not have heard any hype It doesn't matter what record label I'm on Or the fact that I may or may not be on a record label at all It doesn't matter what the papers said Or the fact that the papers may have been defeated. And it doesn't matter what Twitter said, oh, cause the revolution will not be tweeted,

yeah. All that matters is right here. All that matters is right now. All that matters is right here And I might be sleeping on your couch tonight I'm not sure if they told you yet I know you want me to be more famous than that All but fame ain't got nothing to do with it Cause I'd rather sleep on your couch

And eat your cookies Than sleep alone in some hotel room and not have any cookies at all. I came here to meet you. I came here to sing to you. I came here to meet you. So let's get one thing straight. Bob Dylan never played here.

Leonard Cohen never sang here. Willie Guthrie never preached here. This is a new stage. This is a new scene. And if my generation is going to make any impact at all, there's one thing we need to believe.

We need to believe that the songs that we write can be better than the songs that were written by the legends of our past. We need to believe that the music that we make has the potential to be better than the music that was made By the legends of our past Otherwise, what's the point? And I hope it's okay that I said that

I hope the older generation ain't pissed. It's just that I want a summer of love too. I want a renaissance. I want ours to be the best. I know it sounds conceited as hell. I know it sounds like blasphemy to say we could be better than the Beatles and Dylan and Beethoven.

Oh, I'm not saying that it's me. All I'm saying is I'm trying. Me and my friends, we are trying. Every night, we are trying. Thanks for coming and watching me try. John Craigie. Yo. How you doing?

I'm all good, how are you? You know, how you been? How's Portland working with all of these protests and stuff? You doing okay? Yeah, I'm doing good, man It's kind of, the timing was kind of perfect Because Portland, I think, was getting to that point where You know, it's all very sweet and liberal over here we wanted a reason to go outside but we knew that uh it was good to be inside for a while there and then i think just at

the time when it felt like it was all right to go outside then there was some purpose behind it so yeah i've been to a few of these marches it's very nice very peaceful there is some intensity going on in some of the areas but in in general, from what I've witnessed, it's good intentions, and it's great. It's been great to march with them. It's great, man. I mean, it feels like you fucking predicted this. Yeah.

You know, you have a lot of songs that this is about to happen. It's pretty amazing. Like, Presidential Silver Lining is like, fuck, that is right now. What were you thinking about when that happened? Well, for me, it's like

I lived through Reagan, the first Bush, eight years of the second Bush. So I've seen all the things. And that Trump election, as we all know, was so weird because I remember when, when it was like the Republicans chose him as a candidate, everyone was like, oh, wow, I was dumb of them. He's going to lose. And then, you know, as things kept going,

it was just sort of like, man, we're going to have our first female president. This is so exciting. Even that morning when I had that, when I scheduled my little election party with my friends, I had the party because I really didn't think it was going to happen. And then that day as the dark clouds rolled in and it sort of with each passing minute, you know, at that party. So, you know, I was in shock and I was really nervous about the future of the country. And just, you know, my always my thing is about uniting people and bringing people together and music that makes you feel like you're not alone and all that stuff.

And I knew that it was going to be four years of singing to some pretty upset people. Yeah, and do you think, like you said in your song, I mean, this is when we really do write the best music. So through these protests and stuff, have you been inspired to write or has it been hard to write about these topics? Yeah. Again, not to give credit to a bad thing,

but yes, I was having a hard time during quarantine. I remember you and I were talking on the phone and I had some blockage. But yes, I was having a hard time during quarantine. I remember you and I were talking on the phone, and I had some blockage. But yeah, this has definitely opened it back up and had a new protest song that I kicked out a few nights ago. And more is coming. Yeah, it's really nice to be just back out into the world. And Portland, everyone's safe.

We got our masks on, but we're out there. That's what I thrive on, is humanity and community and without that i'm pretty much useless you know yeah dude same here man i mean that was it's like the kind of the concept of have you found a new meaning for life through through this or has it always been the same meaning yeah it's always been there but i think for me my struggle always is that you know i put so much of my self-worth in into music i think once you hit that point where you have an audience and they are supporting you it's a really beautiful place to be it's what we all want and it's great but it's a bit of a mindfuck in that now you you have purpose which is great and so when that's gone you have no purpose so it's like

you know i mean it's the same as like, probably, I mean, I wouldn't know nothing about this, but the same as like having a long-term lover, you know, it's probably like, you feel you're so good. And then if they're gone, you're like, wait, what do I do? Who do I love? You know? And that's my audience is like, is like my, my soulmate. And it's like, when we got separated you know back in March I was just an aimless fool wandering around you know or not even wandering around my house my living room because I couldn't go outside you know

and so it's yeah it's I'm feeling more connected to the fan base again and and the possibilities of being with them in a musical setting seem more plausible now. I still don't know when, but it seems like on the horizon. Do you consider yourself a commitment phobe because you're obsessed with your work? Did you say commitment phobe? Yeah, commitment phobe. No, commitment phobe. Are you a commitment phobe because you're obsessed?

Oh, yeah. I thought that was like a new genre of music. I was like, commitment-folk. I was like, damn. Damn, that's actually pretty heavy. Maybe you are commitment-folk. Yeah. But tell me about...

You live for the road, right? Like me. Yeah. And when you... Is that the reason... Do you have commitments a lot? Or do you have other relationships? Have you had a relationship since then? Are you, you know, are you just a hookup guy or what?

What's your vibe over here? Oh, we're getting, we're going deep in you, huh? Yeah, I'm coming for you, Craigie. I didn't say you, you didn't get the press release from Phil that said questions not to ask John. I'm here, no, it's to ask John. I'm here. No, it's cool, man. I'm open book. No, to be honest, I am pretty private about my personal life.

But to be honest, yeah, it's hard for me. It has been hard for me to do the traditional relationship because and although I do, I definitely think it's possible. I'm not one of those people who says you got to do one or the other. I have many friends who can do both, but it has been hard for me. Yeah. Because I, I not only am I so addicted to the road, but I do really love it so much that I find myself choosing that oftentimes over other things. And yeah, so it's hard out there. And I, and I try to be to be you know i'm a good guy

and everything like that which i think is not get out of um the sort of normal construct of a relationship because i can i just see how it goes down a lot but i've been doing that the past few years been interviewing my friends who are married who have kids um who are like really good at monogamy i've been interviewing them to just sort of get get a taste of it you know how it is yeah what about like is it hard to just be genuine happy with yourself when you're always making examples through everyone else's relationships yeah i think so you know i think the artist is always strong i always say like don't never trust a musician who's too happy, you know?

Yeah, you say that. It's the same thing as, like, never trust a skinny cook. Never trust a happy musician, you know? It's like, I don't want this, I don't want the guy who was, like, the captain of the football team and, like, popular in high school to be singing to me. I don't want that shit, you know? Yeah, exactly.

I'm not going to say he needs to be depressed or she needs to be depressed,. I don't want that shit, you know? Yeah, exactly. I'm not going to say he needs to be depressed or she needs to be depressed, but I don't want anybody too happy. Yeah. And so I think sometimes, though, as musicians, we sabotage ourselves a little bit because that gets in our head and we think, oh, no, oh, shit, like, if things are too good,

then I'm like late-era James Taylor. I want to be heroin-era James Taylor. Yeah, exactly, man. Yeah. then I'm like late era James Taylor I want to be heroin era James Taylor yeah exactly man I mean do you think that's pressure in itself you know I think so sometimes it's funny because I think every artist struggles with it differently

you know I think some artists they are just like sweeter and like more geared towards the button down thing you know what I mean and other artists obviously are like way more troubled and like you know and more geared towards the button-down thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. And other artists, obviously, are way more troubled and have so much more conflict.

And then I think I'm somewhere in the middle where I don't know what my... I always think about this with every musician I know. I think, what would they have been without this? Because that's all of us except for maybe some of us that were like born and bred to be this but most of us at some point had to smash a bunch of shit around us in order to get into this path you know i mean like most of us were gonna we were in school we were gonna be this teachers um you know who knows whatever it was but at some point we had to really work hard to get to this.

And I constantly think, would I have been a married guy? Would I have been the dorky dad, you know, singing Kumbaya? I don't know, you know. It happened quickly, I guess, but. You're a big comedian fan, right? Huge, huge. What do you like about comedy? Well, you know, for me, honestly, I wanted to do that before music.

When I was a kid, music was a very far distant concept as far as to be a musician. My community as a kid was very suburban, very like sports driven. There were no musicians in my school. None of my friends' dads played. So I was very obsessed with music, but it did not seem like something that I would be able to do. But with comedy, at school, I was the class clown. I was doing it. I was Jerry Seinfeld of the third grade.

You know what I'm saying? Did you do bits? Oh, yeah. I'd be like, what's the deal with the book fair? For me, going to Catholic school really, I mean, I still do some of these bits on stage now because Catholic school is a weird place. My Catholic school wasn't too harsh

when I talked to other Catholic school survivors, but there's a lot of, it's tense because you got these first graders and second graders and they're like, Jesus died for your sins. And you're like, I ain't even done shit yet. Like,

what was that? Like when I, you know, I don't even know. And so you're thinking, so you, you're pretty like stressed out. And so it was,

it's an easy crowd to get laughs and to poke fun at the Bible. And, and, you know, to, I have a whole bit about, like, Jesus turning water into wine, things like that. Those were early on.

And I also was, like, a big fan of The Simpsons, Seinfeld, that show Martin. I don't know how old you are. Yeah, I'm 32. Yeah, yeah. So a lot of these shows that I was, that were, like, when I was a kid, it was very common for, like, a stand-up comedian to, like, get a sitcom where they were the dad or the mom.

And so I would see these sitcoms, Home Improvement, you know, Roseanne, whatever. And then I would go. And so, yeah, I got really into it and so as soon as i started playing music it was pretty easy to transition into the the joke part because i my favorite comedians were like richard pryor and pat noswell people who could do both who could like yeah you know not to not to overstate it like a common like quote but they would make you laugh and cry and i think that's what i wanted and i saw this was most important i mean that's what you adapted to with your music. I mean, you just leveled up in a sense because I look at, you know, Carlin, I look at Chappelle. I look at these guys who are not just low hanging fruit guys who really can just talk to you and you can, you could laugh and you can cry.

And that's what I wanted to be too. Like explain to me your first, okay. I got two questions. I got tons of questions but regarding comedy um yeah were you insecure as a kid and you felt like you had to make people laugh to like you yes definitely i mean i was i was definitely like i think most class clowns come out of being i was definitely like a nerd i was scrawny i wasn't good at anything you know i wasn't like uh very good looking or like that so i was definitely and i got picked on a little bit and i learned early on that like they don't you don't kill the comedian you know like

if you're if you're the big bully and you're trying to mow things down if that guy makes you laugh he's all right and so i learned that early on that that was a way that I didn't necessarily make me tons of friends in the popular world, but it kept me in the good graces of the cool kids. We're not going to beat the shit out of you today, Craig. Yeah, I always like to think of Screech, you know, Screech from Stay by the Bell. He's Zach Morris' best friend. Zach is the coolest guy in school. Screech can be with the nerds

and play chess, but then he can also hang with Kelly and Zach and all them too. I wasn't as spazzy as Screech, of course, but I remember I related to that character in that sense of this man can do both sides and he's probably protecting

himself in a lot of ways. And he's a really, he's a sweet kid, you know? Why do you think sad people attract to comedy? I mean, I think it's, it's obvious in that a really good comedy, you know, sort of like focuses on that, which is, uh, painful and dark in this society and then tries to sort of flip it around and sort of see the cosmic joke of it all and uh i mean i think that's how we what's the i mean it's like comedy like tragedy plus time equals comedy as the is the old saying and so and that's those are the best times when you can really get somebody is when uh they're at their lowest and we've been at our lowest you know many times that's how we find the good stuff i think have you ever felt like you uh

nailed a joke and then you did it and it fucking bombed of course all the time what was the worst one you remember the town no i could i couldn't give you specifics but it's very common that will happen where you you've got a bit that just slays. And then all of a sudden, one night it doesn't. And you want to take the audience like, hey, can we roll the clip? You know, everyone else is laughing at this. What the hell's wrong with you guys? But no, honestly, you're only as funny as your audience thinks you are.

And so it's funny how like when things are hot and good and the crowd's on your side you know how it is it's like everything's cold yeah you can and i can like improvise and riff bits and extend bits and really dig i mean if you're in a crazy show and i'm talking slow and i'm calm and i'm and you can tell i'm extrapolating you know it's a good show if i'm up there and i'm just like okay then this happened jesus water and wine yeah and you can tell I'm extrapolating, you know it's a good show. If I'm up there and I'm just like, okay, then this happened. Jesus, water and wine. You can tell that I'm not comfortable

and I feel like I'm bombing. And over the years, I've gotten better at, of course, establishing an expectation from the audience, which is good. Establishing a crowd that knows it. I think for any comedian, which I'm definitely not trying to say that i am one but for any comedian you have to sort of get to that point where if you are um

you know let's say someone like a dave chappelle you'll be able to get away with certain things because your crowd is expecting them you know what i mean yeah and with i mean i've been to so many comedy open mics because i have a sort of secret fascination with bad comedy or watching people try to... Because that's the hardest thing in the world. The hardest thing in the world is to be funny in front of people that don't know you. It's really hard. Have you done just stand-up by itself?

There was a phase maybe three years back where I basically had a bunch of stories and bits that didn't fit into my live show either they were about like my personal like romantic life or they were just a little too uh you know they were they were well intentioned but maybe just like raunchier than like my folk crowd wanted to deal with you know and so I was like well these are funny like they're funny stories my friends it still was like the same concept of like making fun of myself for being awkward but instead of being like awkward on a date holding a girl's hand i'd be like more like awkward

in bed with that woman or something like yeah yeah and so i did a bunch of things i did i did comedy open mics i did regular open mics and it was pretty funny to see the range of of how good or how bad it could be and what was even funnier is like i'd start out with one of these new bits they'd start to bomb so then out of like protection i would sink into a classic craigie like stage bit just because like i know this will work and it wouldn't work you know because it was out of context i mean a comedian it's just so hard musician has the music to fall back on. You know what I mean? And no matter what, when I walk out on that stage,

the music is assumed. The comedy is just sort of implied. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you think musicians have it easier to get laughs than comedians because you're not expecting to be funny. It's so much easier. I mean, there's two facets first of all uh the more awkward a situation is the easier it is to get a laugh

you know so that's why you ever go see like a fucking play or something you know and plays are super awkward because we're in a black box but we're like i'm in my living room or whatever it's 1930 and so people are super awkward so i find it plays people are laughing at the dumbest shit and i'm like man these guys got good you know um music is pretty awkward because it's a human being out there bearing their feelings and so the audience is pretty like a little like nervous and so by throwing out even the dumbest dad joke uh you usually get a laugh but at a comedy show everyone's's usually pretty loose. They're pretty drunk.

And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bring it on. Make me laugh. Yeah. And so the other thing about music is that, yeah, when you walk out there, even someone like myself or a Todd Snyder who you're like, I'm going to laugh tonight. I could go out there and not. I could just play songs.

It wouldn't be a lie on the marquee. You know what I mean? Yeah. And have you ever done that yeah i have you know not so much in the past few years but there have been situations in like sort of what i call sort of like the gray area of my career you know my career started is like just playing bars and background music just to just to make money and be on on tour how many years you do for? More than I'd be willing to admit. You know Gregory Isaacoff, right?

Yeah. He's a friend of mine. We always joke about when somebody asks you how long you've been doing it, it really depends on what show they're at. If they're at a really awesome show, then you can be like, oh yeah, man, 20 years, hard, blood, sweat, and tears.

But if it's a bad show, you're like, no, I just started last week. This ain't been, you know. Because you can't say 20 years on a bad show. People are like, damn, this has been a rough 20 years. Yeah, keep talking. Yeah, so I think it was a while there that I was doing that. And then I started to mix in private shows, small crowds, 10, 12 people, do the comedy. So then there was this gray area period where I'd play a free show at a bar.

Half the crowd was crazy fans who wanted the bits. The other half was just drunk people who were just there. Those nights would be tough. I would start to do the stories, but it just wouldn't work because it was too loud or too scattered. And so in those cases, yeah. And every now and then, I'll still get a festival gig, and it's just not the best. They put me on at the 2 a.m. rave tent.

Yeah, and you're by yourself with your fucking guitar. Yeah, so some nights, it's been everything. We've done a lot of work to make sure, do our best, that every show can be executed as good as possible. You know, do you feel pressure of making bits like are making a show, like a perfect show for the tour season and having to change it every night?

Or do you want to, are you a guy who likes to perfect a set? Well, you know, I, it's funny every, every like before each tour, I do get nervous. Cause I'm like, man, where I'm like, man, where am I going to get material? I've got the material. I've done all my best stuff. But knock on wood or whatever you want to call it, I've been very lucky in that when that crowd is sweet and comfortable, I just get in that zone and I feel really good about it. And I don't know when that will dry up. You know,

I was just talking to someone recently about how I tend to do, uh, you know, a story between each song and, you know, other artists might just do one or two, even Arlo Guthrie, you know,

some of my heroes, they'll do a few stories per show, but I just said, you know, while I got them, I'm going to tell, you know, and maybe when I'm an old man, I'll have less.

But I feel like knowing myself, I'll probably have more. It'll be like a few songs and all stories. Well, that's the thing. You got to live to write. And if you live on the road all the time, you're always living, in a sense, for us, because that's what makes us live. So how do you get out of autopilot when you're in autopilot?

How do you mean? Like when you go into a show and you're going through your motions and stuff and you know some things aren't hitting and you just you just keep trying to attack getting into present moment because when we go into autopilot we're kind of we're not present right yeah well i think that's one thing that i tell like a lot of young songwriters who ask me questions. It's like the talking to the audience really does keep you from going autopilot. And some of my friends who they tell me they get bored of touring because I think some of my friends just have really elaborate shows, lights, lighting cues. So they have to do a similar set every night. And I can see how that'd be boring.

Once you start talking to the crowd crowd every night is a fucking chaotic like even if it just seems calm it's a total like you know bull ride and and i love that and that's what i that's like my drug is that moment you know of something starting to i like to call it like um the asshole tightening moment or the sphincter tightening moment if i'm being censored because you know those moments when you're speaking to a crowd and maybe i'm starting to do like a catholic school bit and i know in the end that this is not it's not offensive it's a funny observation all things but i've mentioned jesus so everybody's asshole is like super

constricted the christians are scared the liberals are scared everybody's scared and i want to ride that as long as i can until i deliver that punch line do water to wine or whatever then you feel you can feel it like uh dilate or or relax and so that's kind of like that's the drug that i'm on so if i ever have to do a show where i don't talk or can't talk i yeah i'm usually pretty like uh like cold about that yeah what about where do you feel more free when you're by yourself with your guitar on stage or when you're with a band yeah i think by myself is is where i'm most free just because i'm less like self-conscious of them standing there or their like needs but I'm lucky in that the people I've surrounded myself with like Ship Twins, Miko, Rainbow Girls, they're all

just they all know me really well and they all let me do that and I tease them always because it's like eight minutes sometimes and they just have been so they're fidgeting and they probably heard the story before you know but the general you know maybe fidgeting. And they've probably heard the story before. I try to mix things up, but the general maybe theme of the story they've heard before. But I feel very lucky. I think that's part of playing with me. You've got to be comfortable with that. Yeah, and I've watched now both your shows live,

one by yourself and one with a band. And I feel that. And I think, this is just my opinion, but I think your best records are when you're live. Where do you feel more comfortable in the recording process? With the live crowd or do you like the studio aspect of it? I like them both. You know, I think a lot of like, well,

the live thing is something that I wish more of my heroes did. You know, I mean, I have a collection of like towns, towns at the, at the, um, old quarter, John Prine on tour, Neil Young,

Massey Hall, you know, uh, I have a collection of, of those things that I really love, but I do wish that, that more of my heroes would like make those chronicle albums that are half storytelling,

half music. But I understand that that's, that are half storytelling, half music. But I understand that that's hard to pin down sometimes. So that's obviously is easiest for me. It's basically just bring the crew in, make sure it's a nice room and get that down. The studio is way more like out of my wheelhouse because I'm not a composer, I'm not a producer. But I think of my heroes like Greg Brown, John Prine,

these people who they take the studio album and they give you something. You know what I mean? Whether it's a piano solo here or to even a more extreme example would be like a Paul Simon who obviously could just be solo, but each album is a very rich tapestry of production. I definitely don't hit those high marks, but I love that idea of, let's give the listener a gift of something that will never happen again. Then let's also give them the gift of the thing that happens every night.

I think that's the balance I want to do. That's great because do you write songs for the show? Do you write songs for the album? Definitely, I write songs for solo performance. And I would think, yeah, mostly for the show. It would be rare that I would... If I'm writing a song, it's rare that I would not be considering how it's going to hit the ears of my live audience. There's probably times where I'm thinking of something like why I think I was a little slumped during this

quarantine is that not having that guaranteed audience each night, you know, I pick up a guitar and then I kind of, there's that part of me that's like, what's the point? Who's going to hear this? You know? Yeah.

I mean, that's, you know, that's the thing. Like, like, but you say that in your, in your,

um, in one of your songs, you know, if you can't, if you can't make yourself give some chills, then what's the point of doing it? So have you been able to give yourself the chills through this quarantine or no?

In this quarantine? No, only just recently. Like I said, I was having a hard time those first couple months. What was the hardest? You said the music thing, but were you lonely or what? Were you by yourself or what? I live with housemates. We're all friends.

It wasn't that. I think it was this. I really had developed my sense of joy and satisfaction and purpose over the past seven years based upon this very concise type of touring. Everything about it, getting to the gig,

meeting the people, setting everything up, putting the harmonicas on the stool, hanging out backstage, hearing the sound of a fill up, doing the show, going to the merch table, shaking their hands, and then leaving again. All that just really became more than i guess a tradition to me it was it was like it was like a you know muscle memory and so i think just having that snatched from me by by no particular entity i think it was really it was that was hard for me

for sure is routine important to you yeah i'm a little a little ocd so if you're a little ocd touring is is actually really great because there's so many little things you can do every day you know what i mean like uh and there's so much like purpose like oh okay i sold five shirts excellent i'm gonna put that on the on the stretch you know like all that stuff and um so yeah that part and i think i was having a hard time finding a routine at my own house Because I'm never here And I don't know what to do Same, it's hard to feel like normal Like I don't know what to do

I'm walking around in circles I finally got a house And I'm like, it's like you kind of think it's a dream Because for me, I've been doing 250 shows a year for the last 15 years So I'm on it all the time So like when you pull the brakes and all of a sudden you're forced to settle down, I think that's when anxiety kicks. That's when

your mental health from when you're 12 years old, the insecurities of what kept us distracted, they come back into fruition. Do you have, have you ever been to therapy at all? No, but it's funny, you know, not to get too personal, but during this quarantine I started to, to research that because I was really starting to think that, um, that would be good for me. You know, I've never done that. You know, I think when you grow up in like that sort of suburban Catholic, uh, square family that I did, you know, therapy is like, they would never talk bad about it,

but that's for like really, really, you know, sick people. And, you know, like just get a job and have a family and you'll be okay. You know, if you're sad, it's probably because you're not doing one of those things. You know, did you feel like when you're plant plateauing, you get anxious. Do you feel like you always need to be kind of moving forward through life yeah well i'll tell you this to transition from catholic to agnostic is is like a really hard move because of many factors and i talk about this on stage a

lot but it's like so when you're catholic like or any kind of christian probably any religion what they try to do to you is like and i'm not knocking any religion i know it helps a lot of people but what they what they do is they say like boom this life is short this life is not that important what to do is to be good here because you got the good shit coming up at the end so they really pound into your head that this is short it's very fast it's very trivial so you go okay cool cool and then all of a sudden when you become agnostic or whatever you're like oh damn like now i don't have that thing at the end all i have is this short ass life then you have even more guilt exactly holy shit yeah so for me it's like i think a lot of times when i'm sitting still i'm just like man i gotta i gotta do the good stuff because i don't know how much time i have and and so when you find

something that you love and i talk about this a lot on stage too it's like there is such a sweet comfort that i saw with all of these like uh you know the hardcore religious peoples that were in my life where it's so soothing for them to know that it's all good man it's all good like here is nothing i got an eternity on the cloud with my harp so it's all good you know and what a nice gift to have that and and to to be sort of to be agnostic and to sort of be like i don't know what's happening oh shit like i gotta you know i think that's where a lot of anxiety comes from. I think for me, I mean, I'm not trying to put out to the listeners

that I'm stressing the whole time, but it's what keeps me from being able to stand still, I think, for sure. Well, you know, it's stress. I mean, OCD is no different. I mean, you're just distracting yourself from whatever you have to do to get through it. It is halftime at the Andy Fresco interview hour.

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Sports with Dolab. He's talking shit about the game. He's got a weird fucking name. It's Sports with Don't Love. After 20 fucking weeks of no sports, coming back to TV near you. That's right.

This week we're going to be talking some NBA. Decently back, baby. Let's go. Holy fucking shit. So this is what we got. 22 teams, 8 regular season games And then we all fucking know The much anticipated, the real deal

We're getting full 7 game series playoffs We fucking did it Fuck you Andy Fuck the Lakers Frasco you ain't shit July 31st When the NBA season's supposed to come back That's 20 weeks of no fucking basketball, no fucking sports,

except some Korean fucking baseball and like 2 in the morning. Regardless, we're coming back. Let's fucking go. We got 22 teams coming back. Let's hope we can make it to the end of July. It's fucking going down. The Jazz are winning this shit. All the storylines are coming back.

The Lakers, LeBron, the Clippers, Kawhi, Giannis out in fucking Milwaukee, Utah Jazz, Dodger Mitchell, Rudy Gobert. Can they figure it out? Can they be friends again? They fucking better. Because we're fucking taking it. Fuck the Lakers. Fuck the Clippers. It's sports with Dolav. Holy fucking shit.

What was the reason why you went agnostic and how old were you? Well, I mean, uh, I was, it was probably sort of somewhere in like the fourth or fifth grade level. And we had some pretty, and like I said, my Catholic childhood was pretty chill compared to other people's stories. I was in LA, you know, it was, it was a very like diverse population at the school. And half the kids weren't Catholic. They were just there, I think, because it was like a nice school. You're in sixth grade.

When did you realize God doesn't exist? Well, no, you know, and I want to make that clear that agnostic is different than atheist. An atheist says there is no God and agnostic says I have no idea what's going on. Oh, okay. So you're admitting to not knowing. Yes, yes. I know those two get confused sometimes. I could never be an atheist just as I couldn't be Catholic.

I have no ability to sort of be sure of anything in this world. It's all chaos to me. But I think what I realized, I remember we were talking about hell and heaven and all these sort of guarantees in life. And I just kept on seeing all these discrepancies between, yeah, between one person, uh, you know, one person saying, this is what happened in this Bible. There's another person. I just saw everyone kind of just trying to find their answers. Um, but I think what it really was was starting to hear people argue with other religions and other atheists too everyone's sort of being like well i know for certain that there is no god well i know for certain that there is a god and his name is this and i just think i realized that um

it's it's fundamentally at its core uh way too complicated if they're allowed to to think that and i'm allowed to think this then um the only answer to me was was uh sort of the unknown if that makes sense yeah so do you for me unknown makes me panic yeah do you feel peace in unknown no not at all that's the thing which is why i think people choose that and why i think you know and i never want to offend any atheist you know and i i always hate to say that an atheist is the same as a christian people say that you know but i do think that people choose these stringent beliefs because it is it would be very peaceful to just be like, well, when you're dead,

it's over. So whatever. Or when I'm dead, I'm going up to heaven or I'm going to, um, you know, Nirvana and all this stuff. So I think agnostic to me is the one true religion.

And it's also the most, uh, anxiety ridden and stressful. Do you have that same philosophy for your music career in what sense the unknown of like you never know you've always knew that you were going to be successful

no I mean quite the opposite I'm always waiting for the president of music to show up at my show and be like oh this guy no I'm sorry this wasn't supposed to happen no i mean good do you think that anxiety keeps you going yes yeah like i said i mean it it makes it so i won't rest and i won't take it for granted i have some friends i think that i start to see them get bored with their

success or yeah bored with like oh you know i didn't get the Red Rocks, you know, but I got the, I sold out the Swallow Hill. And I'm just like, for me, it's like seven people came. This is amazing. Like, you know. Really? You still like that? Even as you get older and you add rent and. Yeah.

The only thing that that bothers me is like, I worry about my managers and booking agents. They're going to drop your ass. I just want them to think I'm cool. You are cool. But honestly, honestly yeah like it was funny actually i was uh i did i just did like my first europe tour a few months ago and um and things were great you know but there was a couple towns where i would get there places i never like i never had been to heard of you know like uh nothing i hadn't heard of but like i was in like um freiburg germany which i hadn't heard of and they were like you know well we've only sold like 15 tickets and i was like that's i know i'm like if there was one person to show i would be blown away you know so i think that um that's something that i also try to explain to these

young musicians who ask me for advice is like just always be stoked because like we don't none of us deserve this job it's amazing yeah and and we're so lucky to have it and um and I think you know the reality of it is is like if this didn't make money we would do it for free and if this costed money we would go get another job raise money you know it's it's just something that it's it's your it's like your spirit work and you do it no matter you know no matter what and if you don't want to do it then don't do it you know what i'm saying but um but yeah so for me i never i never in a million years thought that i would even be able to have a show

where i could sell tickets and i just want to sing for like a girl, you know, like that's all. Who was the first person that told you, yeah, you can really do this, this music thing? What was the moment? How old were you? Like what? Because there's got to be like an important figure in your life, right? Yeah. You know, for me, it was such a gradual thing.

I mean, I always commend my uncle. He's my mom's sister's husband, so not even my blood uncle, who was kind of the outcast of the family. He's still around. He's a great guy. But he was wild and loud and had a motorcycle, tattoos. But he played guitar. He was the only person I knew in my world that played. And he was pretty corny he played like john denver and yeah mr bojangles and things like that yeah but when i got a guitar i'm sitting in the corner i'm learning like nirvana and pearl jam riffs and stuff like that that's what you like oh yeah i was big into that you know i got my guitar in 95 so i was really into all the riff rock of the 90s. He was showing me things like Unchained Melody and Willie Nelson stuff.

And at the time, I remember being like, this is lame. But also, I was like, I kind of like how that C chord sounds. When I was a kid, I didn't know what a C chord was. I just knew like, boom, down, down, down, down, down, down. You know, like that kind of shit. So he was a big he was a big figure and um and then you know my high school i wasn't very good so a lot of people were like maybe stick with something else you know but but by the time i got to santa cruz the hippies there are so forgiving you know so i have i have

really good memories of just like friends and And then, uh, my, my early girlfriends were really nice about it, even though it wasn't good. I think they, they could sense like that connection I had with the open mic crowd or whatever. Yeah. And, um,

but it was really a long time before I felt that I could do it. Even I started doing shows, you know, in bars. And even then I was like, I don't think this is working, you know, but it's just like, I really. I just really wanted it that bad.

It's really weird. What was the first song that you wrote that you felt like, okay, I believe this? That I can tell you. A lot of my history is very vague, but this stands out to me. I've been writing songs since I was 16,

all terrible, all bad. What were you writing about at 16? Girls, you know, girls that didn't like me, which there were plenty. But yeah, so I remember this, though. I was in Santa Cruz, and there was a weekly open mic at this hippie house that was really beautiful. I would go. I would sing. Everyone was very nice, but I could tell I never like I never hit them

You know, I'm saying like never like made an impact. Yeah And I remember I gave this girl ride home From you know, the whatever the drum circle or of the fuck, you know She had left her Nalgene bottle in my car and at that time Nalgene was like was this was like, you know in the early 2000s so the whole like like you know steel water bottle wasn't like a cool thing back then so only hippie chicks had the reusable bottle you know and so i wrote this song pretty pretty silly but it was both funny and sweet about you know it was like the girl with the Nalgene bottle. And I wrote it.

And I remember thinking, like, this is like everything I am. It makes fun of myself. It's sweet. It has a good message, but it's also, like, funny. And I played it that, you know, that next weekend at the open mic. And I just felt that feeling of when you do something good in front of a crowd. People came up and said, Hey, what's that song? That was good.

And, and everything from that moment on was forever changed. Cause that's when I was like, that's when I was like, I don't suck. Yeah. How old are you then? So that was probably 21,

I think, uh, 20 or 21. So then you said, let's take this shit on the road or how long did it take? That took a while. So then I graduated from college, still only doing open mics. What'd you get a degree in?

Mathematics. Oh, holy shit. Which sounds very... What the fuck, Craigie? Why? Which sounds very impressive. I'll explain myself. I don't know how long we have on this podcast.

I got all the time, bro. Okay. I got nothing. If this is boring, you can edit it out. But I don't want to overdo the bit because I do this bit on stage. But the truth is, is that I got to college as never a student guy. I was never good at school work. Santa Cruz was great because it was super easy.

Did you just want to go there for the vibe? Yes, totally for the vibe. I knew my parents are great, but they're very like strict and very square. And my older sister had gone to Santa Barbara. And she and she was like whatever you do just go to college it doesn't matter get out of the house like you'll have sex like you'll meet people like you'll you'll your life will start you know because she knew i was a nerd too were you taking drugs yet or did you ever take drugs yeah definitely uh but not in high school like i said was a very bro-y i love my high school

friends but i was like screech so i was hanging out like a lot of jocks did you play sports uh not really i mean i tried yeah i sucked so bad they got me out of there pretty quick as soon as i had that guitar they were like they're like all right all right mrs craig you go over in the car yeah all right so go on go on with this so i drank a lot in high school because that's what that was the drug of choice and uh i was never i could never keep it keep it in really well i was a bad you know drinker but i did it and and weed was kind of seen as like a loser drug like um because there weren't like a lot of hippies in my community and so i would read all this stuff i was a huge like nerd. I'd watch Woodstock.

I was like, man, I'd love to do all that. I'd love to smoke some weed, but it just wasn't around. So once I got to Santa Cruz, people drank less. It was a lot more chill. But the thing is that I knew I just needed to coast by. And this is the part that nobody believes me, but trust me, this is true. I was talking to a friend. I was like, man, I got to pick a major that's simple where I can just play music with my friends and go to class and get through this. And I was like, I was thinking maybe art. He was like, no, no, no. This is Santa Cruz. He was like, art is very extensive, very hard here.

And I was like, maybe English. And they're like, no, no, no. This is like a big English class. They're like, have you taken a math class here? And I was like, no. And he's like, check it out. Because math was like something nobody took at Santa Cruz. So the professors were chill.

They were all like deadhead burnouts, you know? So they would be up there and they'd be like, math. Numbers. Am I right, people? Like, whoa, you know? So I was like, I love this. You know, they bring in pineapples and they'd show the pineapple. They're like, no, no, no.

Pass this around. This shit's math, you know they bring in pineapples and they show the pineapple they're like no no no pass this around this shit's math you know like pine cones and shit and so it just kind of happened next thing i knew it was senior year and they were like so you're a math major i was like i guess i am how long what kind of math were you doing like what was the highest math you did to get to get a fucking degree in math whatever it is where you look at ferns and you call them fat fractals, that's the shit I was doing. That's unbelievable. So you always had the plan from college, I'm a musician. I'm going to get paid,

I'm going to graduate, but I'm going to do this. I mean, that was the dream. I didn't have a plan, but that's what I dreamed. But I got out of college and I didn't know how to... This is, again, 2002, so not to date myself, but Facebook didn't exist and like i didn't know how to you know this is again 2002 so the you know not to date myself but facebook didn't exist myspace didn't exist so i mean i don't i mean the internet existed but trying to book a show was really like weird back then you know

you have to set like drop off your demo cd or whatever you know and so i became a teacher because i needed money and they were really desperate for teachers back then. What, at Santa Cruz? In Watsonville, just south. So you stayed there after. Yeah, I stayed. And I remember teaching high school math at 22, like long hair, total hippie vibes. And Watsonville's not Santa Cruz.

It's like a lot of migrant farm workers kids it's way more like legit intense you know real life and i got there i remember like the principal called me and he's like craig you gotta stop bringing these pineapples in like these kids need like some actual math you know and i was like yeah you know bro like i don't really do that and he's like well you're gonna have to start because uh yeah these pine cones ain't gonna get these kids to pass the SATs so luckily I wasn't fired because I was I just walked away pretty quickly but what year were you teaching high school like they were like 18 they were like four years younger than me it was it was. Oh my God, that's amazing. So that summer, though,

I said to myself, I was like, I got to do it. I got no other choice. And so I remember I booked a tour from Santa Cruz to Denver because my aunt lived in Denver and she was very sweet and she wanted to see me play and she's old. So she said,

play a coffee shop here. And I booked maybe like seven or eight gigs. I had my four tourists. I had a flip phone, I think. By yourself? By myself, yeah. Fuck yeah. That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah. And it was amazing. I mean, gigs were paying maybe 50 bucks. Maybe four people were there. But I was sleeping on people's couches. I was meeting people. I was on my own. I was free

and i didn't lose money like i had a cd to sell every night i made something and i didn't need much back then you know yeah and so when i came home from that uh you know i was like well even if that's all i ever get you know is like is you know, I'm trying to think of the place I played in Denver. It was called Cannon Mine Coffee Company, which actually was outside of Boulder. I don't know if you know that place. But I was like, if that's all I get, if it's just my aunt and her friends and they clap,

I was like, whatever, I'll do this till I die. And then, you know, that was then. Fucking amazing. I mean, that's kind of basically what Manifest was about, bro. Yeah, yeah. And that's my all-time favorite. That's what I felt for you because I'm living that life. I think every musician is living that life.

And so when did you realize that this was your destiny? I guess then, at that coffee shop yeah i mean there's so many little moments that i that i think back on of little things like you know coming to a town and selling like two cds coming back six months later and now i mean i don't it would be really romantic if i told you the coffee shop was full no but it wasn't dead but there was seven people this time and they knew the songs and they wanted now gene bottle you know and then and then going to a whole new town and somebody says hey i heard of you through this thing you know little stuff like that i mean it's it's too too many to count but it was a very long drawn out thing and then of course every few months some

horrible crushy thing would happen they'll be like i i can't do this nobody wants me i suck i remember one night in mesa arizona outside of phoenix isn't it amazing where we the cities we find out i'm not through tour yeah oh totally and i can't remember the name it was maybe called the sale in or something and i booked the gig just like a normal person would, maybe $100 guarantee. And, you know, nobody was there. Nobody showed up the whole time. And I remember the guy, the owner, like yelling at me as he paid me the $100, like, you'll never work here again.

You're bad. Like, you know, like, and just chewing me out, you know. And I remember, like, I cried in my Astro band that night, you know? And I was like, this is it. I, you know, he's right. By yourself, John. Oh yeah. Always. Yeah. Dude. So you really do understand the life of a standup comedian. Yeah. There you go. I mean, I think they have it harder. I mean, I, they have it harder. I mean, but you have it just as hard, man. You,

you don't get to celebrate with people when you have a high moment. You don't get to mourn with people when you have a low moment. You're in your fucking Astro van crying to your... I mean, this goes back to the commitment thing. I mean, I'm the same way, man. Is it hard for you to cry in front of people? Yeah, in front of people. Yeah, definitely.

Not by myself. It's easy. It's easy. Do you trust yourself more than you trust others? Yeah, sure. For sure. I think also, too, it's like my mother, she's Sicilian, too. So I have this double, like, yeah, this Catholic and the sicilian thing is all about privacy like

you know total godfather like never talk about the family never talk about your business and so um i think that that's something that resonates with me a lot and the other thing of like never celebrate your highs too much you know like that's something my mother is very private about her like any kind of success and so whenever something good happens for me i don't i'll like won't tell anybody you know yeah i mean that's so weird same here why do you feel like it's a burden to be happy no i just think that i i don't know if it comes from the sicilian or the catholic but there's something about like i don't want my joy to to make you sad you know. And that also comes from the other thing, too. That just comes from relationships.

Relationships are very hard when you are a passionate artist. There's those moments when you're dating somebody and you have a great thing that happens to you, but maybe it takes you away from them. Or maybe they're a musician, too, and they didn't get it. And so over time, it kind of just like bullies you into just like keeping that stuff inside, which I'm okay with. I'm a private person anyway, so it doesn't bother me.

But I think there's some of that too of like, I don't want to brag. Yeah, I feel that. I feel that. And I grew up in LA where everyone is just trying to fucking one-up each other too. Yes, totally. When you don't have the greatest things when you're a kid and you don't have anything to one-up each other too. Yes, totally. When you don't have the greatest things when you're a kid and you don't have anything to one-up, it's kind of like you learn how to suppress from growing up in LA

because I didn't want to be a pop guy. You didn't want to be a pop guy, right? No, never, never, never. So it's like doing what you do and doing what I do doesn't make sense in LA. So you had to find that out in Santa Cruz, right? Exactly.

Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that kind of fucked me up as a kid is that when I was a kid, I am so envious of these kids that,

that I see coming to my shows in these small towns. Like how cool would it have been? I, the only shows I saw as a kid were arena, like Pearl Jam, Blink-182, Third Eye Blind. And I never just like went to the local

like tiny music venue and saw a dude or a girl like just like banging out some tunes and like which i would have loved i would have that would have blown my mind as a kid i didn't know that existed yeah i mean you kind of talk about that and suck at philly yeah you know how it's like the bet the better things are those drives those those, it's the journey, right? Yeah, sure. You also say that, what's that Patrick song? You talk about like the town, the small town where like, it was a small town, but you know, we were present and we lived in the moment, right? Yeah, yeah.

So those are the things you really remember in life is when you're present yeah oh for sure and that's something that i remember a friend of mine told me early on because when i was in santa cruz uh you know brett denon you know that guy yeah fucking six five homie yeah yeah that guy's huge yeah brett and i went to santa cruz together and and i wouldn't i it would be romantic for me to say we came up together, but the truth is we were buds, and then he got extremely successful, and I didn't for obvious reasons.

He was very good at that time. Was there any angst in that with you? No, not at all, because I never felt like I deserved, and also back then I didn't deserve. I deserve i wasn't very good so you were never competitive when it comes to music no definitely not competitive the only thing i think is that there are those moments where you wish you had the chance you know i mean because because i really like the democratic nature of music in the sense that you get to that. When you're on tour, it's like you book a show, you charge tickets.

If people come, everyone makes money. If they don't, you don't. And it's really just, it feels very fair. But the other level, like festivals and other things like that sometimes are, because a festival is like, that's a gift. Or opening for Jack Johnson or something like that. That's a blessing. Yeah, that's a blessing. And so I think there are those moments

where you're killing it on the small courts. You're slaying it. And you know if you just had that chance, if the high Sierra would just let you play, you'd kill it. At 6 p.m the sun yeah exactly but if they but you know but then you don't it takes a while you know i always joke with my friends that usually uh you get what you deserve four years after you actually deserved it

you know and that's okay you know you gotta you gotta enjoy where you're at because if you don't enjoy where you're at you're not going to that stage either, you know It's because it's not that different. Yeah, cuz what think about if you would have gone on tour Jack six years ago Do you think you would have took it for what it's worth? I Would have took it for what it's worth. I don't know if I would have achieved I don't know if I would have hit him is like I did, you know, I think though but But you know that all happened at all the right times for me because i had really put out you know what i thought at that time were my better records for you know i had songs that i felt were appropriate for i mean it's ridiculous to say that size because that size is beyond my

scope but i had i had songs that i thought could work you know to an audience of that somewhat magnitude. How hard is it to play by yourself at an amphitheater like that, that you're opening? Yeah. Because, you know, no one really gives a fuck normally when the opener, but I guess Johnson's fans, they come early, they watch the openers and they're really supportive.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I got lucky because of that fact, for sure. My friend, I think i got distracted but i was gonna say is brett denon's drummer was a dear friend brett denon's former drummer is a dear friend of mine and he was the one who told me he said when it gets good craig eat you'll get up there and three seconds later it's over he's like if you don't you can if you like blink you know it's like ferris bueller you know yeah um so when you're up there when it's good this one and this was 10 years before it ever got good for

me but he said when it's good make sure you acknowledge it and recognize the moment and stay present and so that always rings true with me because um because i've had those moments we all have where you you get up there you know i just did the hardly strictly bluegrass festival uh which was always a dream of mine it was beautiful it lasted about seven seconds yeah it just was so good and i had a lot going on i had i had people coming in you know sitting in and i tried staying present for a moment here or there, but that shit went fast. But anyway, back to Jack. So yeah, Jack's crowd, I got lucky in the sense that they're very punctual.

Brett had done a run with John Mayer and his drummer Randy had told me that that was a bit tougher for them. They were first of three and they were doing Red Rocks but to maybe 200 people. And as we all know, 200 people in a 200 person room is amazing. 200 people in a 10,000 person room sucks. It's weird how

it's just fucking semantics in this job and it's weird. So yes, I had that going for me. Jack was very nice. every night he would come out before me and introduce me to kind of so the so whatever distraction there was it would just like focus on the stage because jack knew his knows his role he's very incredibly kind yeah so i had their attention um but the other thing is that people say how hard is it to play the 20 000 people and weirdly it is easier to play at 20 000 than it is to play to 20 000 people and weirdly it is easier to play at

20 000 than it is to play to 20 in like a in like a noisy bar because those 20 000 people are so pumped the littlest thing all you have to do is walk out there and be like how you feeling the place yeah the lights up like yeah we played the gorge on that tour in 22,000. Sick. And it was actually. Holy shit. Yeah, it was insane. And it was actually kind of hard to do my show because they were so excited. Not even for me, just because when you get that many people there. Beautiful place.

Yeah. It's just human nature. You've been in big crowds. It's fucking insane. Yeah. And so I would be doing like a bit. I'd be talking about, and I would say something like, oh yeah, and I lived in Santa Cruz, and the place would just roar because I named a place.

Yeah. Yeah, I have to wait 30 seconds for the roar to die down, and then I'd be like, okay. And then I hit them with the joke, and it's like, what? I might mention Grateful Dead or something, say another band's name. Not to be funny, just to like, as part of the momentum of my thing, huge roar. Yeah, exactly. So it's a different,

I learned how to do my best in that situation. But, you know, my music is not for that crowd, you know? Yeah. So what song hit the best with that crowd? Tambourine Man? Yeah. So every night what I would do is I would do my set and then I'd come back out with Jack during the set

oh cool and that was wonderful so that was great but I heard that that was nice I nod my hat to you because I know that it's baby folk scene is fucking hard dude and you have to like you play in these rooms

and you keep playing these rooms and like what is what what's next after the theaters you know like is that is that kind of stressful for you or you like no you want to be a theater band oh i want to keep it small i mean i think that's the thing that phil and i argue about the most is me trying to hold it back you know yeah um yeah i mean i definitely and he knows that and and you know intimate music kind of caps itself which is nice like you're not going to see i mean this is a i can't think of actually a great example because people like uh ed sheeran and iron and wine do play giants you

know stadiums but but you know at some point um it starts to lose its like purpose if if if John Prine is playing at Shoreline amphitheater, it's gonna be a little weird, you know, I'm not saying that's a bad thing but And so for me, I'm very content with just whatever crowd I have in that town Let's play that room, you know, I don't need to but um but yeah, I think that I try to just try to keep it intimate. And you're right. I mean, as a songwriter, it's really hard to know why people keep coming back. It's such a blessing.

And I can't be thankful enough. Because it's really hard if you're just a person who writes good songs. What's going to bring someone out to listen to? It's great. Especially when you're by yourself. Just you and a guitar. a person who writes good songs, what's going to bring someone out, you know, to listen to is great. But, um, especially when you're by yourself, just you and a guitar,

no lights, no, no fog machine. And, but that's to me, it would be funny if it was just me and the fog machine. No lights, just fog,

just sad. Maybe you'd like that. I walk over and push the button and everything myself. That'd be good. I talk to Todd Glass, and it's all about vibe. Especially, he's not going to walk into a room, do comedy, unless the lights are dimmed. Everything is perfect to his surroundings.

He told me, he went on tour with Tosh.0, and he went on tour with Sarah Silverman. He feels most comfortable in those 200, 300 cap comedy rooms. He told me, he went on tour with Tosh.0, and he went on tour with Sarah Silverman. He feels most comfortable in those 200, 300 cap comedy rooms. Because they listen. They're hearing you. That's where your environment is. I could see that push and pull where we got to think about finances, but you got to also think about the experience of the show, right?

And that's important to you, right? Yeah. The thing for me, too, is I really important to you, right? Yeah, I mean, the thing for me too is like, I really want to tell a story from start to finish. And by the end of the night, I want us to all feel like we are in this together. And that is very hard to do at Shoreline Amphitheater, you know, or at Madison Square Garden.

Just because there's other people there are beautiful, but if you can't see you know somebody or they can't they have no way to fathom the size of the crowd you they don't feel as connected yeah so for me it's really magical and i think it does it does really work well around that two three hundred there's a room here in portland that i've been doing that 600 of the aladdin theater and that works because of the way it's laid out. It still feels really intimate. So I find my rooms and what I end up doing usually

with Phil, we talk about like, let me just do two nights here, three nights here. I get it. Do you like doing that? Yes. You do like doing three. Okay, so are you stressed about can you play the same set each night?

No, I am very keen on myself to not repeat myself. But I got stuff. Yeah, cool. The only bummer about that is that if I have a really solid story that I'm doing on that tour, I'm only going to do it one of the nights. Yeah. And then, like me, I'm like, oh, I feel bad. They didn't hear the tacos. Yeah.

Nope. They'll live without the tacos mid-crate. Yeah, I'm like, oh, I feel bad. They didn't hear the tacos. They'll live without the tacos being created. I know. Because I wonder how many, probably a lot of them come three nights, right? Some of them do, yeah. And I joke, I always, a recurring joke I do on stage is like, when people start following me on tour, you know, like to different towns, I give them shit because I'm like, this ain't fish, bro.

Like, you know, like I'll be in Sacramento, then I'm down in LA and some guy might yell out like, this ain't fish, bro. I'll be in Sacramento and then I'm down in LA and some guy might yell out like, you told that last night. I'll be like, nothing new has happened, dude. You've got to give me four weeks or something. Oh, God. That's also the pressure I have because I'm in the jam community. My biggest scene is

jam community. I grew up listening to Damien Rice. The reason why I play music is because I followed damien rice on tour for like a year and i fell in love with him and all the folk i like shook twins and like wood brothers and stuff and like i never listened to jam music i don't know how to jam so it's just like what the fuck am i supposed to do so i worked on my gift to gab you know and just like a like been a big guy but um with that being said like let's talk about your new record because i guess that's why we're here and we didn't even talk about it so i'm having a great time thanks craig i'm really good to know you bro and you're you're you're just as dope as i thought you'd be um so

how hard is it to release a record during quarantine slash protesting? Yeah, I've been getting asked that a lot. And I think that there's two sides to it. On one hand, it's great because we have time to listen. I started releasing singles for this record right at the start of quarantine. And I really felt like, man, everybody's tuning in. This is awesome. So there's that. that and of course we need music now and we're hungry for it uh so that part's cool but what's hard for me is not being able to go and be what i always have been

which is like the door-to-door salesman of my emotions yeah so seriously i don't get to i don't get to go to seattle and and bellingham and eugene and you know i don't get to roll there with my new songs and tell the stories behind it i miss that and that's going to be tough for me but the time will come and i'll do that then so uh all in all i have seen some artists postponing their releases which i don't fully understand but i wouldn't knock it like the dixie chicks they're obviously doing something right so i'm not going to tell them how to do their thing i think it's but i wonder the machine i think it's the machine like i don't think them it's just like they're about to put a million dollars into marketing and

yeah i don't think independent artists have Because how many records do we actually sell? Yeah, yeah. Versus just getting the music out and streaming, right? Exactly. So I'm stoked to have it out there. And I just wish I could be there to kind of walk everyone through it, which is kind of like what I like to do. Because that's the thing that's weird about the studio album

is that the live show, I'm there. So if I hit something that feels weird i'm going to feel it in the crowd and i'll be able to kind of go over it but studio albums are so weird people will write me and they'll be like hey why did you say this and maybe they heard a different lyric or something like that um uh i remember like on my last record no rain no rose i did it first of all it was a cover of the Rolling Stones tumbling dice There's a line of that song that goes They Bet I don't need no jewels in my crown jewels in my crown. Yeah, it's it's it's Rolling Stones lyrics

I don't like to dig too deep into but on multiple occasions people have written me and said why do you say? I don't need no Jews in my crowd? Which is like, oh, my God. That's terrible. I would never say that. Oh, my God. But, you know, like when I'm live, I know that like I can feel it as I say it. But on the studio, I don't know what their experience is going to be.

So I love studio records, but I think I always want to be there after I put it out to kind of go around and kind of give the DVD commentary. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And especially like you, how you do. I mean, do you test them out while you're writing them? Yeah, a little bit. Sometimes here and there. But I also say I do save a lot for because I also want my show to be very fresh with the bits, but very satisfying with the songs,

which means I want to give people the songs that they want to hear live. I want to tell them new stories and play some new songs, but also give them some of their favorites. When you start bringing storytelling in, it does shrink down the amount of songs you're going to do per show, so I've got to be a little more selective with that. What's the most requested song? Burning Man? That's a good

question. It kind of varies from region to region. The California song has gotten some good... California got some love. Yeah, so that seems to be the one that if I don't play it, people are upset. Tambourine Man, Burning Man's a big one. So it's about the streams. You can just look at

your streams and see which songs people are digging. Yeah, I think so. Fascinating shit. John Craigie, I could talk to you forever, bro. You're a great guy. And I hope Portland's good. Give the Shook Twins. Oh, they're not even there. Are they in Idaho now? Aren't they with their parents or

something? I just was hanging out with them today. They're heading back soon, but they're here uh we were out marching the other day so they're doing great well you're doing a good thing and keep fighting the good fight i got one more i got two more things actually are you genuinely happy right now in your life right now uh genuinely happy i don't know happiness is always a weird thing to me i think uh for me like I was saying before, I think what makes me happy is that feeling of movement and purpose.

And so I'm always striving for that. So I'm never quite there, but I'm very happy to be alive and have an opportunity to make the change that I can. How's that for dodging a question? Yeah, we're going to find you a therapist, Craig. All right. That was a good, that was a good dodge. One last thing. What do you want to be remembered by?

What do I want to be remembered by? I think that I'd like, I just would like it if, if people, you know, honestly, I remember saying this very early on and actually it was really sweet and old. This is a sweet story. We can go out on this because a girlfriend I had back in college, she, I guess at one point before I was anything, before Nalgi and Bala, before any of that stuff, I must have said to her that all I ever want is to be a song, is to have a song that gets sung around a campfire. is to have a song that gets sung around a campfire. She and I have been broken up for years, but she wrote me recently and said that she was around a campfire, someone played a song, and she said, whose song is that?

They said, oh, it's this guy named John Craigie. She felt this really warm thing like that's all he ever wanted. So she told me that. And of course, I have experienced things like that of satisfaction, but it was nice to be reminded. It's always nice when you can live up to your young person's dreams, when you can do a solid for that dork back in high school, that dorky John Craig.

And it's nice to share a moment with somebody. And then in the past, and you're not just crying in your car or laughing or enjoying yourself in your car, you both experienced that moment that you said to them, I want to be, you know, a camp song. And fuck yeah, Craig. That's what I'm talking about.

Way to go, buddy. You're fulfilling your dreams. And that makes me happy. And thanks again for just being the light when there's a lot of darkness. And I know you've helped me, and I don't want to get savvy, but you helped me find therapy through Manifesto

and you helped me found happiness through Presidentialifesto, and you helped me found happiness through Presidential Silver Lining. Thanks, Andy. I love you, bro. Keep up the good fight, and I'll be rooting for you because that's what brothers do, dog. Thanks. Let's hang in Colorado when this is all over.

Yeah, come on over anytime. If you need a break, I got a house. Come hang out. Okay, thanks, buddy. Have a great one, buddy. See you. Later. There you have it.

John Craigie. Unbelievable. It was, that was amazing. But enjoy this moment and I'll catch you on the tail end. Now, a message from the UN. refined people they all clap and sing. Kneel down low, hands up high. He promised a pie in the sky. King Donald melted the butter bar. The egg was hot and

dry. King Donald, you take heat when the chickens fly. King Donald, yes, them eggs will hit you in the eye. King Dono! You keep it low, it's mighty sly.

Ha ha ha! Oh, King Dono, King Donald, King Donald, King Donald All the chickens in the coop They plan a gutsy coup They're in quite a state, oh, round a state And they want to paint it blue Call him stable, call him fair But only cause the color of his hair. A genius full of feathers.

All they need now is the glue. The horse. The kingdom for a horse. King Donald. You look down when the chicken drops. Donald. You don't want no egg on your dog. King Donald. How you't want no egg on your dog King Donald!

How you gonna make this stop? We dominate the streets King Donald, King Donald, King Donald King Donald, King Donald, King Donald King Donald, King Donald, King Donald King Donald, King Donald, King Donald All right, and there you have it. John fucking Craigie. The man.

He's a great guy. Fighting the good fight in Portland with the protests. Just talking a little about his life He's from LA I love that motherfucker But anyway Hope you enjoyed it Hope you have a great day

Hope you have a great weekend We got a bunch of stuff I got a bunch of stuff lined up Saturday dance party Tuesday I got Lyle Davinsky Not Tuesday that's podcast day Thursday next Thursday I have Lyle Davinsky not Tuesday that's podcast day Thursday next Thursday

I have Lyle Davinsky and Nako on the shit show and then I'm interviewing Michael Franti this week so maybe that comes out this week for the next podcast and I'm doing the shit shows we got sponsored by fucking Sweet Tea

thanks for that money Sweet Tea. Thanks for that money, Sweet Tea. I appreciate you. For the dance party. So the dance party's popping. It's live and well. So if you decide to stay on the weekends now that things are opening up, come hang out with me.

I'll be your couch buddy. But this interview went long, so I'm going to keep this short and brief. I love you. Be safe. Wear condoms. Seriously, wear condoms. I found out one of my friends got pregnant and I didn't expect that at all. And I thought it was my baby actually, but it didn't, the numbers didn't make any sense, uh, about the months, but, um, be safe out there, be, uh, uh, be worried, um, that, um, your freedom is, uh, being taken from you, but don't be scared because we could take the power back, like, fuck yeah. So I just pumped myself up through something that was improv. But yeah, I love you guys. Stay strong out there. I'll catch you. I'll catch you all week. But if

you need anything from me, I'm serious. Hit me up on Instagram. A lot of people have been sending me messages and I'm responding and I'm hearing you and I love you. I'm not going to blast your scene, but I love you for it. And I love that everyone is figuring out ways to make themselves better through therapy and getting through this mental health thing. We're all in this together, and it makes me proud when you guys send me messages saying that this podcast is helping. So I love you. Stay strong. Arno, give me something nice. Give me something nothing too political, Arno.

I hope not. But if you got to say what you got to say because you're way bigger than me and you'll beat my ass. Have a great day, guys, and I'll catch you next week. way bigger than me and you'll beat my ass. Have a great day, guys, and I'll catch you next week. You tuned in to the third season of Masterful Moulding at Andy Fresco's World Saving Podcast. Thank you for listening to episode

88, produced by Andy Fresco, Joe Angelo, and Chris Lawrence. Please subscribe, rate the show on iTunes and Spotify so we can make this a worldwide phenomenon. For info on the show, please head to our Instagram at worldsavingpodcast. For more info on the blog on tour dates, head to andyfresco.com. Check out the new album, Keep On Keepin' On.

Or let Andy entertain you at the Thursday night online shit show. Or at his crazy Saturday night Wanna Dance With Somebody dance parties. Do you know our boy does cameos too? This week's guest is John Craigie. Find him on johncraigiemusic.com C-R-A-I-G-I-E Craigie. Our special guests this week are Ari Finlings,

Dolph Cohen, Brian Swartz and Arne Bakker. I adopted being a fan of John Craigie from Andy. What a great way with words. Humbled, I return to my weirdo sketchy soundbites I make for this show and promise myself to do better, write more

transparent. File out a single message without letting it drown in all other colorings the subject might bring. My many splendid truth only confuses my listeners, and for that I apologize. So, better writing, more unapologetic messaging, more

protesting, both in the streets and anywhere else. So let this be clear, I am in favor. Unless I'm against. Even if I end up in a new line of work like fishing or carpentry. Sweet Mary Joseph, I hate this barn we're in. Be safe and gravitate towards good. Uphill, always uphill. Charge!