Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - Jorma Kaukonen (Jefferson Airplane/Hot Tuna) on How He Survived It All

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

85-year-old rock legend, Jorma Kaukonen of Jefferson Airplane, joins the show for a wide-ranging, honest conversation about music, life on the road, and what it really means to keep going. From the wild early days of Jefferson Airplane to the evolution of Hot Tuna, this episode dives into the highs, the chaos, and the lessons learned along the way. We get into touring then versus now, the reality behind the party era, and how perspective shifts with age. There are stories about couch surfing gigs, recording classic albums, and the moment success becomes real. The conversation also explores recovery, creativity, and why passion never really fades if you are doing what you love. It is funny, raw, and surprisingly reflective. If you have ever lived life on the road or chased something bigger than yourself, this one will hit. 

I was doing a job a couple of years ago in Columbus. I opened a show for Tommy Emanuel. And somebody asked Tommy, where was bullshitting backstage? And somebody, one of the people asked Tommy is, do you ever think about retiring? And Tommy said, from what? You know? What, my passion, my dream?

Okay. And we're live. Andy Frasco's old sitting podcast. Hey, Nick, how you done? Better than you. I'm having fun. Are you? crying.

Andy Frasgolesey podcast. We got Nick Gerlock. We got our producer Neil showed up to work today, everyone. Wow. Unbelievable. What a beautiful. He wasn't in Bali or something. You weren't in Bali or Indonesia.

Where the fuck you've been? Yo, big show tonight. Yorma from Hot Tuna and Jefferson Airplane. Why are all the guys who've lived crazy lives have the best story? What do you mean? Do you just answer your own question? I know. You mean why are all the older people more interesting?

Why are, yeah? Because everything was more interesting in the 60s back then. They didn't have internet so myth can be real. Everything was just a little, it wasn't so easy to access. Documentaries about musicians from this time are going to be the most boring shit you've ever seen in your life. What? From like, it was 2006. Yeah, the Harry Styles documentary in 2075 is going to be a waste of time.

It's not Harry Style's fault. It's because he grows up, he grew up in a time when everybody's, stuff is already out there. You can just piece together Instagram reels. I wonder what our documentary is going to be like. It was 2006. Yeah. 2006, we didn't know each other then.

You weren't even born yet. No, talk about my band. Oh. They drank again. The documentary is called They Kept Drinking. Yeah, it took them way too long to go to Alcoholics Anonymous. I did that dopey podcast. A dopey?

I don't know. This guy is cool. It's about he's sober And I'm out He was pretty funny He does all the beat He did Jamie Lee Curtis Right before he interviewed me

I love her She's awesome But he told me I should go to a Like He's like the philosophical stuff Of AA Is something I could

Get into I don't really like it Because it's all It's too religious It is a little gaudy to me So I don't I'm out But you know I mean

But it works for you That's fine Just personally for me No Yeah Also I don't to quit drinking. I don't either. Sounds fun. No, it's stupid.

What do you mean? You're going to be sober all the time? No, he said you do it for the learning. You don't do it for... Learning about what? I don't know. It's like it. It was hard to explain because I haven't been to it, but he said you learn these things of purpose. I think you could... I don't know.

Whatever. Everybody's got their own opinion on that. Anyway, we got you on. I don't know enough about it to... Neil was just laughing. I was like, what the fuck? I've just heard conflicting. What do you think about this, Neil? about the AA? Yeah. I don't know enough about it either. Exactly.

None of us know shit about AA. All of us were hung over as shit yesterday. Yeah, you're right. You're right. All right. Enjoy Yorma. Yorma. You're my host.

You're my best friend. You're my best friend, Nick. Okay. Even though he don't talk anymore. You don't like me. He doesn't talk to me anymore. Actually, I don't talk to you because I do like you. And I know that you don't want to be bothered all the time.

You're in the road with 8,000 things going on. Oh, my God. You do. understand me. Yeah, what the hell? I know how you are eight in the morning on the road. I don't feel like texting you. Enjoy Yorma. If you want to talk to me, you text me when you're on the road and I'll talk to you. It's called awareness. Our first fight. A lot of our, no, I'm, how is this a fight? I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm saying other people need to leave you. Is everything okay? You're a little feisty today. No, I'm just saying

you're misunderstanding me and I hate being misunderstood. Well, I'll never, I'll always. It's called leaving someone alone and giving them space. Maybe some of your other friends and listen, learn from me about it. I'm not even calling anyone out specifically. Enjoy Yorba, guys, and we're going to have a great day, and Nick's going to come to lunch with us. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Right? Where are we going to go? I don't want to go to a salad place.

No. Okay. Let's eat something good. Let's go get fajitas or something. My God, I'm in. Fiditas. Let's get fajitas. All right. Bye. Hey, guys, it's Andy, and I want to talk a little bit about volume.com. Yes. Volume.com. Our Sugar Daddy. Yes, our sponsor. And we are doing a only Frasco subscription.

For five bucks a month, we're going to have extended videos of the podcast. You're going to have a live stream once a month of the band. You're going to have live streams of us making the new record. So head over to volume.com slash Andy Frasco. Subscribe. It's only five bucks. I got a cup of coffee today. It was $7.50.

You could just spend one cup of coffee and get all the frascoe you want. So head over to volume.com slash Andy Frasco and subscribe. Support you guys. Maybe I'll even pay Nick more. You never know. Wow. You got one of the real legends on the show tonight. Yorma, how are you doing today? You know, pretty darn good, considering how old and decrepit I am.

Damn. I was going to ask you. That's my first question. You know, you've abused your body like all of us on the road, being in the band and stuff. What's the found... Of course. I've had a couple of years to reconstitute things, but yeah, you know, back in the day, who even thought about healthy living. Right.

It wasn't even a thing. What do you think the most unhealthy year you ever had? Oh, that's a good question. Let me think. Honestly, the most unhealthy years would probably have been in the, of all things, would probably have been in the early 90s. Why? You know, just discovered another Garden of Earthly Delights

that was more debilitating. What, heroin? something like that. I wasn't expecting 90s. I was expecting 68. Yeah, what were the drugs like in the 60s? Oh, we were, you know, back in the 60s, I guess, yeah, Speed was pretty popular with most of the bands,

but in our circles, they're really held, you know, I don't think anybody even did cocaine until Monterey Pop, and we could thank Owsley for that. Thanks, Bear, love you, brother. Thanks for ruining the next 15 years of my life. What's the difference between working on speed and working on cocaine? Well, you know, it's sort of, you know, being younger allows you, I think, to do that kind of stuff. And I guess that's an interesting question, actually.

I guess you just have to adapt to the environment, you know. It's been a long time, so it's hard to physically have any of that kind of recall. But, you know, it's like, you know, thinking back at it after all these years, it's fucking ridiculous, really. But that's just how it was. It was like the job required it, you know? Right. What was the touring like back in the city? You know, we're torn now, but it feels like travel has got to have been a lot harder in the 60s.

No Google Maps. Sure. So, you know, one of the questions that, the. the folks of my era get, as they talked about, wow, it must have really been great with the tour buses and the party and all that kind of stuff. And there was a lot of party in, but nobody had a tour bus back in those days. I mean, when the airplane first went on the road, we didn't even rent cars. We just, we just flew to whatever the gig was and find some hapless soul that would allow us to couch surf for a night.

I mean, you know, it's hard to think back with stuff like. that but it was so of course we're a lot younger back then too but yeah I mean it was we just didn't have all the so-called amenities we've come to expect so there were no tour busers when we finally got a credit card so you can rent a car

because you can't rent a car without a credit card it was like wow I'm getting a Ford LTT wagon I know I hear that I mean like you know we've been in a band for 15 years you know we've done the van thing and just kind of grinding in living on people's And living on fucking ecstasy and cocaine. And, you know, it's like, you don't remember anything because it happens so fast.

Do you regret not remembering anything because it was such a big blur? Or did you enjoy those times of your life? I guess, I think for the most part, I enjoy them. And I guess if I, for some reason, I decided I need to remit a rhythm and or more detail. it would be because I'm going to write another book about it. It would be nice to remember all that stuff. I actually am going to write another book, and I'm going to see what I can remember about that.

Talk some of my friends and stuff. But I mean, here's the deal. I mean, look, you know, you've alluded to being on the road yourself, so you know what the deal is. There's nothing new under the sun, you know. In the beginning when you go out, because you're really young,

it's all such a fucking blast anyway. Right. You know, the fact that you just had to borrow money to get a happy meal doesn't matter. Yeah, exactly. That's what I wanted to explain. Like, you know, what was San Francisco? You were in San Francisco right when everything was going on.

Did you see? Yeah. You were there actually a couple years before, right? Did you see the boom? Did you feel the boom? Or were you on tour? So I moved into San Francisco during the boom. See, I went out to California in 62 to go to the University of Santa Clara,

which I did for a number of reasons, not the least of which was to avoid the draft. Yeah, all right. But, and then I met Cantor, of course, you know, had I, Canada dropped out of Santa Clara. So it was very fortuitous for me. Had I not gone to Santa Clara, the Jefferson Airplane would not have existed, you know.

But it's kind of hard. It's funny to think about a band like that, basically being spawned by a Catholic university. But. Yeah, it's true. Pretty fucking nuts. But anyhow, yeah, so San Francisco was always like the Holy Grail. So as soon as the band started, you know, Paul had already moved to San Francisco.

I got out of San Jose as quickly as I could. And I was just talking to one of my friends about this recently. I had an apartment on, on Divido Street about two blocks away from the Fillmore. There's a third floor walkup with a garage in San Francisco, 90 bucks a month. month. Wow. Oh, my God. Now all the tech, those tech kids fucking made it $10,000 a month. You couldn't even get a parking spot. Oh, no. It's ridiculous. And I just, you know, but of course, I mean, listen, it was a long time ago. It was a simpler time. And I was talking to, you know, in a normal world, I'd be a great grandfather. But in this one, I've got a 19 year old daughter and a 30-year-old

son. And I talked to the kids, and I use the term kids really loosely. And I go, you know, everybody's got their time. Right. And that's how life is. But I got to say that there's a lot of fun and exciting things happen in my time. Some things that weren't so much fun too, but basically it was an exciting time to be alive.

Because especially in San Francisco, almost anything seemed possible. Right. And, you know, it's like, I was thinking about that. Like, you know, what a life. Before that, what, you worked, your parents were diplomats? Or what was, you were moving around in the Philippines

and PACs and, you were moving around? Yeah. My dad was in the Foreign Service, so he moved around a lot. He, like, my dad was a World War II vet. And when he, when he got out of the Army, I mean, the Navy, he stayed the Navy actually until, I guess, 47 or something. One of them, Korea for some reason, can't remember. But anyway, when he got out of the service, he immediately started working for the Department of Labor and later on for the State Department. So my family was like a, you know, it was like a government family all my life.

And that's just how it was, you know. And so a lot of the things that sort of like cropped up, the opportunities that cropped up in my life were just, was beyond disgusting to my father. You know, I mean, you know, there's rare occasions we get together for a Calcany family dinner. It was not a whole lot of fun. But the flip side of that coin, which is so funny,

is that when I quit the Jefferson Airplane, to do Hartoa full time with Jack. My father called me up and he said, he said, well, son, have you thought about this seriously because you have a good job now? And I thought, am I related to this guy? The tables of turd. You know what?

My parents, I think they, my parents did the same thing. Once they saw success in my musical career, they're too changed about what career I was doing. Maybe he saw success in you. And then said, whoa, whoa, whoa. why fuck up a good thing? Yeah. So why fuck up a good thing?

What was in your head to leave that? Well, I think that, I guess the simple answer is that we kind of just aged out of it. And I remember a couple of years ago, I was on a Zoom meeting with Grace and we were doing something and stuff. And we had some dead air time waiting for one of the overpriced lawyers to show up or something like that. and she was going and she said you know we never really talked about why you quit the band and I said well you know Grace

if I had to do it over again because I just quit showing up I mean when I quit the band I would just disappear it yeah I said I would have done it in a more adult way we would have had at least one farewell tour but the simple answer was it just made sense to me at the time yeah and you know first up you fucking rule

the idea of no call no showing Jefferson an airplane is one of the funniest things I've ever heard of my life. That's, so how long did it take until there's, I want to go back to, um, maybe the reason why you felt comfortable traveling in a van because you're traveling your whole life as a kid, maybe. Sure. So, yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I never, because I'd really essentially traveled most of my life. It's just, it never bothered me ever. The touring, the touring never bothered me ever. Now, and to be honest with you, even though, like, you know, I'm sitting here in this, this little alcove in southeast Ohio.

And, you know, in a couple weeks, I'm getting ready to go on the road again. I love going on the road. I also love being home, but I'm totally comfortable on the road. I really am. Yeah. It's amazing how, like you said, the travel doesn't bother us because it was just what we're used to. And, like, it's a little thing. Like, if you're going to get, if you're going to be pissed off about the travel, do not be a fun.

fucking traveling musician. It's most of the job. That's three-fourths-a-job. I get high going to a different town and fucking eat in the same happy meal. You know, I don't mind. Yeah. But it's a little different. Yeah.

So we're, I guess, uh-oh, I may have to close my Chihuahua, we'll see. Well, wide down there, buddy. Wouldn't be him too. Yeah, so we're, we're thinking about, I've got a bus tour coming up later on in the year and it's probably going to be quote unquote the last bus tour. Now, as soon as you say stuff like that, people go, you're retiring from touring and the answer is no

but you know, I mean, if you've toured with a bus, if that was part of your thing, you know how friggin expensive the things are. And they're just getting more and more expensive. It's just bullshit. And it's beyond and with the fuel prices and stuff. And the other thing too is

I really like to drive. Let's get back to those 40 LTT wagons, you know. I really like to drive. And you get to see stuff. You can stop whenever you want. Now, it is true that you can't do back-to-back gigs 500 miles apart because that's crazy, you know, but. You're 85 years old, Jormor, Chil. You know, and that's something else, too, you know, like my doctor said, I just had a checkup reasonably. And he recently, he goes, or she goes, I have a lady doctor. She goes, you owe me your mom and dad a gratitude.

for your genetics. And I go, you're absolutely right, you know. Yeah. I mean, I'm 85 years old. So far, so good. Yeah. And, well, that goes back to my first question, you know, the founding youth is not giving up and just keep going, right? Yeah. It's like, I was doing a job a couple of years ago in Columbus. I opened a show for Tommy Emanuel. And somebody asked Tommy, where was bullshitting backstage? And somebody, one of the people, asked Tommy, is, do you ever think about retiring? And Tommy said, from what?

You know? What, my passion? My dream? And it's like, I feel pretty much the same way. You know, it's just like, you know, as long as I can, you know, bring the quality to the stage that it's important to me, I see no reason not to do it. A quick break from the interview. I want to talk about our lovely sponsor. Gardenista.

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I want to go back one more time to your relationship with your parents. Your dad being a World War II vet and you, you know, dodging the draft. What,

how is that, what type of dynamic was that between your dad and you, you know, like, thinking like, oh, you pussy, come on,

join the war. Oh, absolutely. No, absolutely. You know, make a man out of you, all that stuff. Oh, God. Yeah, I mean, the usual stuff that you would expect. You know, my dad, as time went on, my dad completely re-evaluated his positions and all this stuff. But when I got into the airplane, you know, and let's just as a brief aside, we're starting to let our hair grow. I doubt, I doubt that my hair was an inch below my name. at that time. That's, you know, it got longer later. Oh, my God. All that stuff for my dad. You look like a girl. I mean, all that nonsense, you know. I mean, it was just a different time. Yeah, he was pretty repulsed by, uh, by our positions. And, uh, and when I got, I got called for the draft and the, I was declared four F on psychological grounds. They figured I, and then, and the, and the Sarge at the, at the, recruiting desk or whatever. What's that mean? What's that mean? Four F on psychological. Yeah.

Well, that's a good question. But he said, you'll never get another job. You'll never get a government job again. And I remember my wise-ass comment was promise. Let's fucking go. I love that. I love it. So what's crazy about it.

So did you do drugs before then? Like you started this psychedelic ban. Yeah, that's funny stuff. So what happened? So I remember, I don't. didn't smoke pot until I was like 21 years old, you know. And it was probably unbelievable. I mean, I remember that I was visiting. I was still at the University of Santa Clara living in the dorm. And I went to San Francisco. Some of my pals that I went to school in Antioch College with were working in San

Francisco and had apartments. So I remember sitting in this basement apartment, no windows, dingy, smoking this incredible, horrible Mexican dirtweed. I remember because I never smoked pop. And I'm wondering, when is something supposed to happen? You know? I mean, like the pot they sell probably in town here at the cannabis dispensary would probably like lobotomize most of us back in those days. My dad said the same thing.

But I think the whole thing, the whole thing in the beginning of all that, quote unquote, drug nonsense was the camaraderie of having that secret that the straight world just couldn't possibly grog. Yeah, right. You know, Yellow Springs is such a little hippie town in the middle of a very conservative, you know, Dave Chappelle lives there now. That's where Dave lives.

Oh, nothing's changed. So are you living in Yellow Springs? Yeah, I was there for a couple of years. Yeah, it's like an alternative universe in Yellow Springs. Do you think that developed your identity as a free thinker? I don't know about being a free thinker, but it certainly developed my identity as a musician because my last quarter there,

I was on an off-campus house with this guy Ian Buchanan. I've been playing the guitar for a number of years before that, but I didn't do the stuff I do now. And Ian was a close friend of Reverend Gary Davis and was an extremely accomplished finger-style guitar player. and for some reason, probably because he couldn't stand to hear me play, but he took me under his wing

and basically taught me how to finger pick and that opened all the doors. So, you know, when people start, I did a thing at Antioch College a couple of years ago where they had alumni coming back and just bullshit of you talking about stuff. And I told the story. I said, I didn't graduate from Antioch.

Most people don't graduate from Antioch. Hell yeah. But I said, but I learned what is defined my life at Antioch College and what more could you want from any educational institution? Right. Let's talk about Reverend Gary Davis. What did you love about him that made you want to emulate his style?

So I think the music that he was, the music that he plays was so complete. Remember, when I got turned on to the rev by my buddy Ian, I'd never really heard any of that stuff before. I had to, you know, in high school, I wrote a term people paper on Big Bill Brunsies, so I'd listen to some Brunsty, but it wasn't really my go-to stuff at that time. I was just listening to Current Rock and Roll. But there was just something, you know, his, his, I consider Reverend Dave as a biophile. He was like a lover of life.

I mean, he just grabbed it with both hands. I mean, here's a guy that had a disadvantaged life on so many levels. But, you know, he had. a really powerful life. And my doorway to the Reverend was through Ian Buchanan. Now, Reverend Davis, if you're a guitar geek, you know that Reverend Davis only plays with these two fingers. Crazy. But me, and most of the guys of my Oak play with three. And because my friend Ian, he could do what the Reverend did too. But this just made more sense to me. So the Reverend's music inspired me, but the style of playing that I, that became my own, I think was really a gift for me.

So tell me about your relationship with Ian then. When did you realize you guys are going to be best boys? So I met Ian, like I said, I met him in the spring quarter of 1960 at Antioch. And this is really interesting, too. Ian's story is worth looking up at some point because it's really, it doesn't have a happy ending. But he was one of these guys. He was from a wealthy family. I think his mother was the editor of Vogue magazine or something like that.

and but he was completely he just didn't give a shit about any of that kind of stuff and like when he was working gigs in the billets because he was one of the big dogs there for a while if the audience didn't listen to him he would just walk out he didn't care he didn't care where he got paid or not

that's awesome I fucking love this guy yeah well most most of us guys that play in front of people can't afford that luxury you know emotional dramatics but uh... I need to settle but he just uh you know

he just sort of like existed in his own odd little out a little vacuum. And so, so anyway, so he took me under his wing and I started learning what became my style. And then the next quarter I had was an extra work study thing. And I had this job in New York City. So I was there for three or four months that summer of, what year was, I guess, 1960. And I was working as unattended in the spinal cord damage hospital, which is why I don't like hospital shows today, by the way, because I know.

what all that stuff smells like. Oh, God. I was thinking about that. Oh, I don't like that. But, yeah, it's brutal. But with that being said, I met some great people in that gig. But anyway, so, so, yeah,

so all I did really was go to work and hang with Ian and learn and play at the hoots of Gerties Folk City and try to get gigs. You know, being a couple of my friends, we're working the Irish bar circuit there for a while. I mean, how weird is that, really? Jews and Irish, they have the same guilt, you know?

Yeah, exactly, totally. But I think the Irish might have more fun. I'm not sure. Oh, yeah, they celebrate their guilt. I'm Jewish, too. I feel my guilt. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, we're, oh, yeah, yeah.

So I'm there that's hanging out, you know, got to meet the rev, got to wash and play. But I never studied with him like Bromberg and a lot of those guys did. And as a result, I never really picked up, it just seemed counterproductive for me to use these two fingers. And as a result of these three, there's lots of triplet figures in my music. I mean, you know what I'm talking about it. It's just like, you got three fingers. What are you going to do? You're going to play a triple roll.

You're going to play a fucking trip. 100%. So, yeah, let's talk about the early years of the band. Like, when you start getting a buzz, like when the Voltures are starting to start. to show up, the record label guys, and all these guys are wanting to blow you up. Do you remember the moment when the show and this is it? We're moving on to our next step. Well, I think that the the first time it really hit me was when we, what was with the first airplane album takes off, when we had a record contract, which didn't mean that much to me at the time. And one of the

funny things was, is I had just recorded what was going to be. going to be a live album at a couple of the coffee houses in San Jose. In fact, actually, Wabash Avenue, which is available now, is that album this many years later. But anyway, that's what I was going to do. And I was going to, I was thinking I'm going to move to Denmark. I'm going to be an expat American blues musician, whatever, you know. So I hadn't thought about this stuff at all. So I can or snookered me in to show.

growing up in the airplane and we wound up getting a record deal. So all of a sudden, I'm in a real studio with a real producer, and it's like, what just happened? And I guess the good news from my point of view is since I wasn't a featured vocalist in that band, they really let me alone pretty much. I think the vocalists, like Paul and the gang, had a lot of pressure on them to do the kind of harmonies that Rick Jarre, the producer, or Tommy Oliver, for that first record.

the producer thought that we should do in order to have a hit record and they just completely let me alone but i mean it's like i mean here's this how old are you folkie fokey bluesy guitar geek from san ozay and all of a sudden you're in a studio in l.a with with a producer that's like produced big stars what what what studio in l.a were you i'm from l.a where did you guys record so we were at rca sunset and iver sick it's not an rc building anymore but uh and they They had a... Yeah, the big room there. Yeah, they did a bunch of the Sinatra sessions and stuff.

I mean, it was like, there was a lot of history in that studio. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. How old were you when you got the record deal? So I guess, you know, you think about, you know, talented kids that come up today and get deals tend to be in their late 20s early, I mean, late teens, early 20s. So I was, gosh, I was already 25 years old. Oh, wow.

But today's pop standard is well over the hill. I know. Fuck. I got to stop writing pop songs. Yeah. So when you made Surrealistic Pillow, how old, like it's your second record, right? Yeah, that was the second record. And that's, you know, there's no question about that, that was a magic record for us in a lot of ways.

Was it easy to make? I always found it easy to work in the studio. And, you know, the airplane gang for us as, you know, as unorganized as we could be, we were not unorganized about the music ever. We rehearsed relentlessly. Yeah. So we were pretty well prepared. We got into it.

And then, you know, when, see, takes off as a three-track recorder, no noise reduction. Yeah. So you could, they would like ping pong back and forth and then mix it mono. Oh my God. And then Suristic Pill was one of the first four-track recordings. Whoa. But, you know. What was the process like with four-track recordings?

You couldn't overdub a lot because they still didn't have Dolby and stuff like that. So you kind of had to really go for it if you were overdubbing because you couldn't fuck the tape up. But what was isolation like for those four-track? back on it, it was just just a gas to be in the studio doing this stuff that I thought, wow. Yeah, it's like... And not being a lead vocalist. I remember when I first had to start singing in the studio, very self-conscious. Like, I used to have, I used to have to hold a guitar and pretend that I was playing so I could sing simultaneously.

But playing guitar in the studio, loved it from day one. Did you know that was going to be as big as a record as it was going to be? Like, when you finished it? Oh, the pillow, you mean? Yeah. I don't you know I think that we

I think that we felt the simple answer is really no because how can you think about that yeah you can predict well but uh but we were we had a lot of momentum you know

and we had a lot of self-confidence so we hadn't even really started touring nationally yet we've done a couple gigs where there wasn't we were really a national touring act I think we always just really felt confident about our own mojo

yeah I mean, you were the first real psychedelic band, I think, rock band. Maybe them in the dead, right? Them in the dead, yeah. I guess in a way, and let me ask you, when somebody says psychedelic music, what does that mean to you? I don't fucking know, just music. I'm on tour. I mean, it's left people that smoke weed. It's like, it's like prude people saying, you know, you're a hippie, you know?

Yeah. No, exactly. It's a weird term. We know what it means when we can't really define it. You know, we know what we're... So I guess, I mean, if you think about the airplane, especially, never mind takes off, but Siriusa Pillo is not, in my opinion,

it's not a psychedelic album. No. After Beating at Baxter's, I would have to say is. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that one of the reasons was, is keep in mind that when I got, when I first went in the studio, you know, with takes off, I had owned electric guitars because I bought and sell guitar.

back in those days and boy I wish I had some of those back but that's what's what do you regret which one did you sell that you regret oh I had a I had a beautiful all maple 1937 L5 Gibson L5 it's like how much you think it is now I sold it for 250 bucks oh my god six figures right I mean yeah yeah stuff like that but uh but yeah so so when we got into the studio with the to do pillow. I had, the Loven Spoonful came to town and they played some bar up in North Beach.

I forget what it was. We went to see them, of course. They are, they believe in magic was a big head, blah, blah, blah. And Zolli was playing one of those Guild Thunderbirds. Yeah. And it looked cool. So I got one.

Yeah. You know, and, and I guess it was, I had it until I got my first 3.45. but I think the coolest thing about the Gill Thunderbird was remember it had that sort of like shark shape that had two points at the bottom of it and then it had a stand that popped out of the back

so the guitar was its own stand. I didn't know they had a stand. I think that was the most innovative thing about that guitar because one of the other things about it was it was pretty much a standard two pickup guitar but the pickups, the pickup switch, it didn't have a toggle like most guitars have. It had two little pushy switches that were,

were up by the upper horn. And if you're playing rock and roll and thrashing your hands around, the chances of hitting both of those switches and shutting your guitar off. Or bleeding out, you know? How many times are... Came to fruition more than once.

Oh, my God. Yeah, exactly. Those things are fucking heavy, too, right? You know, it's been a long time, but the answer is probably... Probably not as heavy as a Les Paul, but yeah, they were pretty heavy. So what, you know, all this great...

So when... Airplane's taken off. When did you feel like I'm over this? I don't want to fucking do this anymore. What was the reason? Did you guys not like each other or what? Yeah. I think a lot of things happened.

The airplane thing, like I said, the airplane thing was a blast. And in the beginning, we rehearsed relentlessly. A couple times we actually lived together, which was another story for another time. We really were unified and, purpose. And I think that as time went on, we lost that sort of communal sense of banned living that requires that you really be young and free in a lot of ways to make it work. And I think that at some point, I mean, to oversimplified, everybody just wanted their own place, you know.

Yeah. And when we weren't hanging around together all the time, we didn't have that sort of a constant stole identity that really made it so easy to always be the airplane. Yeah, the brotherhood. Yeah. And sisterhood. And sisterhood, yeah. I mean, like, you know, it's like, that's the thing, you know, being in a band, like, you know, I've had band members for 15 years and I've had to make a couple changes.

And I think that camaraderie of hanging out, the minute you stop hanging out, the minute we kind of lose that connection in the band, right? I agree, absolutely. So, you know, as soon as I'm not sure any of us are really growing up yet at that point, but some people were starting families and stuff like that. And, you know, were you married yet? You're not going to go hang out. You're not going to take your two-year-old to the bar and hang out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel that. Were you married yet? I was. That's an interesting story in and of itself. My ex-wife, Margueretta, sad to say, passed away. of years ago, but it's like I was married, you know. And it was an interesting, there's a story in and of itself, because both of us remained really good friends long after we got divorced.

We probably never sort of gotten married, but we did. And that's how the deal was. But, you know, I was gone almost all the time anyway. So. Yeah. Exactly. What about like the way their music changed when they came back as Jefferson Starship? When you heard that, were you kind of glad you quit? or did you kind of want to be... Well... Because they changed like a more of a glam rock. My running gag about that is, I always quit the band right before they make the big money.

So I guess... I mean, at the time, at the time I probably had some bullshit self-notion about, well, you know, we're really purists here and whatever nonsense I might have thought at the time. I mean, because who wants to be playing an unpopular band? But it just wasn't my thing. It just wasn't my thing.

And, you know, I remember talking to Paul about it and just say, well, I mean, good job, buddy. And all of a sudden, because he was always the same Paul Cantor, you know, all of a sudden, he's in a major top 40 band. Right. And you felt no jealousy, or did you in a little bit of like, because did you have money back then? Were you not, like, were you broke or like what? No, I, you know, I have, I have, I've been broke a couple times, but it's happened rarely. I mean, I was always, everything always worked out for me. Like even before I got in the band that was coming out of school, I was teaching guitar.

I was making more money playing, teaching music at the Bender Music Company in San Jose than like for the first six months of the Jefferson Airplane. I was still driving down to San Jose to teach. So do you think with Starship blowing up, do you think that put a fire on your ass to like really blow up hot tuna? Well, you know, too bad we couldn't snook or Jay. I was just talking to him before you guys came online. You know, Jack and I just love to play.

And I can't remember, you know, because we have a lot of business interests, in common today that requires every now and then meeting with accountants. and stuff like that. We had none of that shit back in those days. Yeah. And so we never stepped on each other's toes. We never really had a band meeting. We just enjoyed hanging out and playing music together.

And when, for whatever reason, that dissipated for a while, we never quit being friends. And then we came back together again. And I remember thinking, why do we quit playing together? Nobody can even remember why. Yeah. That's so weird. Really?

I'm not kidding. I got some friendships like that. I have friendships like that, too. It's like, what happened? Yeah. So tell me about hot tuna. I think life just happens sometimes. Yeah.

That's just weird. Anyway, what were you saying? You know, then when you started hot tuna, tell me about that. What was the process like of making your first records and what your approach to the sound was and what you wanted to be, like, your identity? Give me a little bit of hot tuna love. So the airplane, you know, towards the end of the airplane's existence and the beginning of hot tuna, the airplane just wasn't, you know, Jack and I just really loved the tour into play. And the airplane just, you know, Paul and Grace were, and Spencer, they just didn't want to work that much and whatever, you know.

So, so it wasn't fulfilling. And not only weren't we working that much, but we were no longer playing together like five times a week like we did in the day. So we needed to do something. So I remember before we did the the first hot tuna record, the live at New Orleans house, we had a bunch of different incarnations of what would ultimately become hot tuna. A bunch of my friends, we put together electric bands, did some gigs, had some acoustic stuff, and, you know, just kind of wandered around through the woods trying to find our way.

And when we had an opportunity, excuse me, to do a record for RCA, which, was a big fucking deal. That's fucking huge. We got to think of it a major label back in those days. We got to thinking about because we've been doing

we've been doing some electric stuff too but at the time it just seemed to make sense to go back to what Jack and I have been doing in hotel rooms. Right. And you know occasionally doing an opening thing

for the airplane or just going to a bar after show and playing And that was what acoustic hot tuna became. And we had done that for so many years. We were so rehearsed for that record, you know. Yeah. I think it says the two songs that I wrote on it, a man's fate, not man's fate,

brain fart. But anyway, the two original Yorma songs on that record. Other than that, we'd been playing all those songs for years. and so all we had to do is get a performance. And we recorded, I think, for four, I'd have to look up the protocols on this, four or five nights. And we just had a lot of great takes

and just pick the hot takes. How do you feel a song is going to make the record? When do you know that this song over other ones are going to make it? That's a luxury that people that write and have a lot of songs can make. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're laughing, but you know what I mean. Yeah, I'm laughing because it's true.

I'll write 30 songs. So we just, you know, I do write, but I'm not a prolific writer. So every time that I wrote something or came up with something, it got on a record. I mean, the same thing was true back in the earlier days of the airplane. Like I said, I was just really a fledgling writer. But every time I wrote something, Paul and Gray said, we got to put this on the record. I'm going, well, I don't know. You know, like embryonic journey, you know.

it's like I thought it was the worst idea ever. Yeah. Turned out to be a pretty good idea. Pretty fucking good idea. You know, I want to go back a little bit to the drug stuff. I hear that you talk about opiates being such a creative drug. Can you explain that? No, I don't think it's a creative drug.

Did I say that? Because that doesn't sound like a yorma saying. No, I are just like you got into opiates. Like, you know, like I was. Well, so I think that, I mean, honestly, it's like, look, you know, as you're recovering an alcoholic and addict, when you talk about this, it's like somebody goes, well,

basically what it was like, I go, look. And I apologize to the women listening here. Put a tourniquet on your hand. When your hand gets, when your arm gets numb, jerk off it'll feel like somebody else is doing it. Yeah, I guess that toy here. I mean, that's kind of how, I mean, that's kind of how it was for me. Yeah, I totally hear you.

And so, and I will say from the point of recovery because, you know, I started, I started, again, my parents were their gig, they always had these cocktails, parties and shit and stuff. So I probably started drinking when I was like 12 or 13 years old. I mean, it wasn't a huge leap to taking drugs. You know, back in the day, I prefer, to uppers rather than downers, but that's just how it was. Yeah. But, and so when, and so when I finally got clean, it was like, honestly, I had to love. learn how to do everything straight again, you know, because I've been basically high for most of my life, you know, so, so it was an interesting thing. So if I'm going to a meeting of one of those things,

now one of the guys comes in and starts complaining about this shit, I go, you know, if you hang on long enough, you get used to the fact that things are different. Anyway, so, I mean, it was just part of my life for a long time. And when I, you know, when I got out of it, that was gone. Yeah. I'm really lucky. And then guys that are recovering will appreciate this. I have no euphoric recall whatsoever. It's not like, boy, did I have a good time. I have none of that, and that's not a bad thing. Yeah, do you remember you're speaking of, you know, getting clean?

What was the moment that made you want to get clean? Well, I mean, it's that classic AA thing where you get sick and tired of being sick and tired. It's just, life was just starting to be a drag, you know, in every respect. And, you know, using just kind of made you quasi-requant. as I normally never really got to have had high moments anymore. I mean, honestly, it was just time. You know, I heard the knock on the door and I had enough sense to get up off my ass and opening.

Oh, that's beautiful. What do you, you know, as we're talking about some of these tough moments of your life, do you remember your biggest heartbreak in life? Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Oh, boy. That's a good question. That's a really good question. Well, nobody's ever asked me that before.

I guess, wow. I guess, I guess, I guess it's, you know, I can't think of a big heartbreak in my life back in the day because, you know, life was just a, you know, like a flowing river. I guess, I guess when my, when my father died in the mid-90s, And I realized that at that moment, I realized that we're all really mortal. I'm not, I don't think heartbreak's the right word, but it certainly opened a door to perceiving life in a different way. And then, and then a year or so later, my mom passed away. My brother and I were actually with her when she passed.

It was, you know, I told my brother, I said, all things considered, I would have rather been having dinner with her, but it was an honor to be a part of the process. Yeah, bed. man, that's very tough. Like, what was the change of consciousness once you saw your father pass away? I guess it's, I mean, in that moment, you know, it's hard to remember things were like when you're younger, because I'm not young anymore. But I think basically speaking, I just kind of thought that things would go on forever, you know. Yeah.

Like you think that the magic of Jefferson airplane would go on forever or whatever, whatever, all that kind of stuff. And then for having something that puts such a final. exclamation point to the sentence after which there are no more paragraphs. It's just like, okay, I see what's going on here. You know, it is lasting forever. Hot tuna, baby. We're going. We're still cooking. Yeah. Newport. Yeah, we have, well, and, you know, and then there's that. And then there's that. There's also that. I mean, you outlasted all your contemporaries. Pretty amazing. Yeah, it is. Yeah, we've lost a lot of good ones this year. Yeah. Yeah. It's been, I mean, look.

that's the way the cookie crumbles, you know. But like I said, I was just talking to Jack a couple of minutes ago before we logged in together here. And we sort of touched on some of these things. He and I are so thrilled, excuse me, so thrilled to not only just be alive, but to be in a state where we can enjoy stuff and still do what it is that we really love to do. This is to play music. Yeah, and you're not like shitting yourself on stage or maybe you are, I don't know, but you know, like, you're taking for, you're enjoying the process.

Like, I think about, like, how I destroy my body. And, like, it'd be a blessing of if I could play music and tour till I'm 85, you know. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's beautiful. Really, I hear you. I agree with you. How good does it have to get? I mean, look, you're, I mean, you're not playing music right now, but you're obviously doing something you like to do. Yeah.

I mean, talk to legends like you, Yorma. It inspires me to keep going. Yeah, people of my dad, mom and dad's generation that just wanted to live long enough so they could retire and start enjoying life. What a drag that would be. Right. I think about that, too, like people start following their dreams when they retire, which doesn't make sense to me. It's like, why can we live now? No, it really doesn't make sense.

And I guess if we had some of that generation who's still alive to talk to, it'd be like, Well, you know, we got through the war and, you know, we had to raise our children and all this kind of stuff. I mean, listen, we're able to, I mean, fortunately, you know, I don't need to worry about going to war. I'm way up. They're not going to be drafted me. You never know. Yeah. But like I said, I do have a 19-year-old daughter.

I'm concerned about her and stuff like that. But it's like, I mean, really, how good is it have to get? Yorma, thank you so much for your time, man. You are, you are inspiration. You're a legend. this conversation makes us want to keep going as musicians and tour until we're 85. Well, that's like, yeah, I know.

It's, you know, like Tommy Emmanuel, what else are you going to do, really? I mean, like, you know, guys like us that are able to do this kind of thing, again, like I said, several times this conversation, how good does it have to get? Right. And when you get out of the bus, have someone drive for you. You're a, you don't need to drive anymore.

You're a rock star, okay? Don't let anyone. I'll drive you around. I love driving. I do too. I'm not going to bore you with this because it's not an exciting car to look at, but I like cars and motorcycle because I got a bunch of those kind of toys. But I've got in my driveway right now, I've got a two-door Jeep Wrangler because I live in the country and I can play with things like that.

But the car that I really like, again, it's not a sexy car, but it's a couple years old. It's a Jeep Grand Cherokee with Air. every friggin gadget that they can think about. Take that shit on the road, baby. Raised himself up six inches. And, you know,

like I said, it's not like having a Corvette or something like that, but I love this car. And I can throw all my shit in the back of it. Right. That fucking, yeah, take that baby on the road.

Fuck it. We don't need a tour bus. You're my... All we need is a badass Jeep, baby. Yeah, I don't, I don't mind driving. And actually,

since you mentioned that, a couple of years ago, I had a Jeep Unlimited, a four-door Wrangler. And me and my and my and my, my buddy Meyer and he's my neighbor and my guitar tech. We took that, we took that, that unlimited on the road several times. And I got to tell you that 500 miles in a Jeep Jeep is not a whole lot of fun.

Yeah, yeah. No, you're sorry about that. You look good doing it, but. Oh, dude, that wrangler. Yeah, yeah. I have a house in Toto Santos, Mexico, and those roads do not, um, the novelty wears off. The novelty wears off when you don't have suspension anymore on your fucking, on your fucking, on your fucking rip on your whip, you know.

Well, keep the dream alive. You're on you. I got one last question. I'll let you go. Sure. You know, when it's all said and done, what do you want to be remembered by? Oh, boy.

Well, I guess, I guess, my answer to that is pretty boilerplate in the first place. And it's, you know, to remember it as a good father to my kids. That's really important to me. But aside from that, I used to say being able to turn so many people on to Reverend Gary Davis in my life.

Nice. And now over the years a lot of people have been turned on to Davis. So what is my new goal? I guess just to be able to continue to play music for, because I like playing four people. Yeah, I play at home all the time. Of course I do. But I really enjoy being on stage and to be able to do that as long as I can. Well, God damn it.

Look at this inspiration. What a legend. Thanks, thanks, Yorama, you're the best. And I'm going to come to a tuna show. Do you guys ever play in Denver? We just did Denver fairly recently. We did the Paramount. Oh, nice.

But since you know how to get a hold of us, I know she's lurking back there somewhere. She's here. Lucy, I know you're there. Lucy. That's me. I'm a lurker. Hey, Lucy.

Thank you so much for this. Anytime we're doing a show and you need to come, you want to see it, just get a hold of Lucy and be our guest. guest. Well, thank you, sir. We'll keep rocking the good fight and, yeah, keep following your dreams. I mean, it's so inspiring. Later, buddy. Yeah, brother. Thank you. That was great. Thanks, Yorma.