Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - Steve Earle on Addiction, Raising an Special Needs Son, and His Incredible Career

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

Legendary songwriter, performer, and actor Steve Earle joins Andy Frasco on the show this week for an interview that spans his entire career. This deep dive touches on him running away from home as a kid, doing drugs at a young age, being a recovering addict, and his role as a parent to a son with special needs. Steve Earle is one of the great orators of our time, and that is on display during this world-saving interview. He also talks about opening for Bob Dylan and his friendship with his hero, Townes Van Zandt. They even get into his love of New York Yankees baseball and Premier League Soccer.

We would have every cigarette that was, and there was no smoking, but the trustees could get them from the guards and you could get them from the trustees. Right. Okay, okay. And a cigarette was expensive. I mean, people usually get a cigarette and they would break it up into four roll-ups. You know, get papers. And sometimes you used the wrappers on toilet paper for cigarette papers because we couldn't always get them. But if you smoked the whole thing, that was called a Cadillac.

And I smoked Cadillacs when I was there. So I did okay. I didn't smoke very much. I should have just quit. I was lucky I could smoke one cigarette maybe two a day. Oh, so you got back on the horse with the cigarettes after jail and you loved it. Oh, you started smoking like Chief Wahoo by the time I'd been out three or four hours. It was ridiculous.

The straight up Cleveland Indian over there. And we're live, Adi Frasco's World Saved podcast. We are so back. We are so fucking back. Fuck. You're going to Alaska. I know, but this is going to be recorded after that. I know, but you are going there.

Yeah, and I've been there now. Wow, how was it? It was awesome. You see any polar bears or serial killers? Yeah, I saw people running away from their lives in America. Well, they're still in America. Well, they're still in America. Yeah, it's like hidden in plain view.

It's like going to Arvada. That's what Neil did. Yeah, that's where, yeah, because that's Neil, yeah. He went on hiatus from Dobapod and moved to Arvada. I'm out of here, man. I can't take this. I can't take this shit. American life, man.

I'm moving to Arvada, bro. Oh, how you doing, Nick? fine you look good you smell good my feet your feet look great got new shoes

everybody watched the video so you can see my new shoes new shoes look great we have Steve Earl on the show tonight couldn't get a word out of him edgewise dude

that man likes to talk but he's fucking good at I was telling Neil when you were downstairs it was like when you're talking to the guy at the after party that won't stop talking

except for you are enjoying it yeah you're just like enthralled by it I'm like is this the smartest man I've ever listened to talk in my life. Oh, man, he was talking about everything.

I mean, if you guys don't know who Steve Orl is, he's one of the greatest songwriters, American songwriters of our generation, of our parents' generation. And what a life. It was pretty interesting. He just started, like, answering some of the questions we had before we even got to him.

I know, we had all this prepared, and he just basically went through him without it. I think we asked, like, three or four questions. He's probably done so many interviews that he just kind of knows. He's like, what these fucking guys, they know what they want to hear. They want to talk about me doing heroin.

and talking about me in Towns Van Zan. Jail. Jail. The Yankees stuff was interesting. I didn't know he was a really big sports fan. I didn't peg him as like a big Yankees guy. He loves sports. And then his second favorite sport was Premier League soccer.

One thing I didn't ask him, I wish I did, was if he regretted not giving his son the knowledge of overdosing. Probably. I don't know. It must be a heavy concept. Yeah. I don't know. And we didn't get to get in The Wire. The Wire, too.

I forgot he was on The Wire. Did you watch that show? That was my favorite show on HBO. I love that show. I've watched it all the way through five times. I think it's better than Sopranos. I think it's two different things. But yeah, I mean, like the act, the story's bigger.

It's like more Shakespearean, I think, than Sopranos also had an advantage over the wire where people liked it more and it wasn't in danger of being canceled every season. So like they had a better budget to work with. The Wire just has a massive cast. so it's like, and they wanted to cast like real people. So sometimes your acting is not as good because you're trying to be more authentic. You know what I mean?

Like the gangbanger shit. But I do think the wire's like better writing, but I do think the sopranos is better acting. Oh, all right. I missed your fucking sister on the beer. I mean, that's not like a very edgy take. It's a pretty common take. But I don't think it's like way better.

The wire, I like, the wire is my favorite show. Yeah, that's not a comedy. Enjoy Steve Earl and. Bless up. Don't stress up. Don't stress up. Don't stress up. Yeah, have a great day.

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Nick more. You never know. Steve motherfucking Earl. How you doing, buddy? I'm good. I'm tired. I'm a single dad, so I'm always tired, so that doesn't surprise me. I'm constantly reminded at some point during my day where you really shouldn't have a kid

when you're 55. But I'm 71 now, and I got a 16-year-old with autism, and he's doing good, but he's like, he's a full pull, man, because he's like, he's, we have teenage, we have, like, teenagism and autism going on right now. And I think it's sort of a tie. The perfect storm, if you will. How do you, how do you convince, first of all, I want to, I want to know about, you know, I want you teach me a little bit about relationships and how to, what, what, what I need to do to because I stay on the road too for 250 shows a year

and I've been doing that forever and you know any advice for me about who I should pick who's the right one you know what I've retired defeated yeah I live by my hat

I mean I live with a 16 year old boy who's two inches taller than me and doesn't speak so I talk all the time for both of us and, you know, I answer my own question sometimes when I ask him one. And, you know, a friend of mine was walking around my apartment because I collect guitars, and there's probably 30 at any given time in my apartment.

And then another, you know, 170 in Nashville in the house. And there's a whole floor that's basically a workshop in guitars there. Here, there's still a lot of guitars in two closets. that are full of them on top of it, two rolling racks under a loft bed in my bedroom and then a whole wall of guitars I'm looking at now under my TV set and interrupted by my puja, my, you know, my puzia table that I've got stuff on because it's, you know, I meditate and do yoga right here. But it's, and I've been accused of worshipping the guitars. Who do you love more, your guitars or your kids?

yeah well no that's i have a lot of guitars it's like kids i've got you know i got i had three boys of course i lost one and um three different moms and i've got two stepdaughters that grew up in my house part of the time that i'm really close to the only girls i've got yeah and um and one one stepson that i'm less close to but we're that's just because i think he's in the CIA or something now he's not that close to anybody but he likes me that's good so it's one of those deals keep you safe if you need it. For not paying your taxes and stuff. He'll be like, hey, this guy's good.

This guy's good. Yeah, whatever. He's a legendary songwriter. We're giving a pass. He's in the wire. He's in the fucking wire. Calm down, people. I'm a totally willing taxpayer, actually, to tell you the truth.

I'm the farthest staying from a libertarian when it comes to that kind of shit. Look, I live in New York City. I pay both state and city income tax. And my son, I make... good money, but to keep John hearing the school he needs to be in, his mom wanted to go back to Tennessee, and she's not a New Yorker, and if you're not, it's torture to live here. But, you know, I discovered that I should have moved here a long time ago. I've been more comfortable here than any place I've ever been.

Interesting. And now it got put to the test because I'm actually home more than I've ever been in my life, because nine months of the year, I'm more here than gone. I travel on weekends, sometimes. about once a month I go to Nashville to do the Grand Ole Opry for the last three years or so and then I became a member not quite a year ago so once a month I'll go play the opera

and I just shot a TV show for a day in Tulsa and then went to Richmond to record with Los Lobos because it was easier to get those guys to go to a studio on the day of a gig in Richmond that was going to be out of their own fucking houses in L.A. because that's just the way they are.

Right. And I just, I've known them a long time, but I wrote a song that I needed to record with them that I really won't out. And so we recorded that. It's got a couple more things that need to get done to it. And Berlin, Steve Berlin promises it's going to get done when they get back to LA this week. I mean, Steve Berlin is a good, man. I stay, I'm here most of the time, nine months of the year. And then Memorial Day weekend, he goes to his mom in Nashville, and I get on a tour bus and stay on it for three months.

And it's been that way for five or six years now, I guess, six years. Tell me about the comfortability of New York City because I have that same comfortability. I love it. I go there all the time. I'm thinking I'm moving back. I've been going there. What makes you feel so comfortable in the hustle bustle, the fast-moving streets? What makes you feel secure in that?

Well, in the first place, as far as, it's like, I mean, I live better than a lot of people do in New York City. I mean, I'm not rich. I've been married to me. times to have accumulated very much. And why I was, when I was talking about being a fan of taxes, and I didn't finish that thought because I talked too fucking much. But basically, I am ahead on New York City income tax. I've received more money back from the state of New York than I pay because there's a federal law that says if your kid has a special need and the school district where you live, the public

school districts where you live is not, you can't provide exactly what the experts recommend for your child, then they have to pay for you to get it from a private source. Damn, sick. And that's a federal fucking law. But most places, because the only way you get elected in this country is to promise people you're going to lower their taxes. And I don't care which side of the aisle your own, you want your taxes lowered. I know lots of lefties that voted for Giuliani because they weren't getting mugged when they got money out of an ATM for Coke in the East Village anymore.

So they voted for Giuliani and didn't tell anybody. So they bought the idea that he made the city safer. And he didn't. Real estate values made the city safer. Right, right, right, right. The protection goes where the money is. Right, right. That simple.

And it's always been that way. So do you think gentrification is good for New York City or not? Do I think what? Gentification is good for New York City. or not? I think it's some of this, some of that. I think our current mayor has the exact right idea. You've got to artificially, you know, quit. You got to stand up to the developers because it can go too far. Right. You know, it's one of those things that, you know, the reason the gentrification has the connotation that it does is because what happens is it immediately

prices any kind of working people out. So, you know, the only people that, and now you're going to be anti-immigration at the same time, the only people you're going to be able to get to work to at the jobs that you don't want to fucking do are going to be stacked 10 deep in a one-bedroom in Chinatown. That's the only fucking source you're going to have for labor. And, you know, of course, Chinatown takes care of itself. I figured that out. It's the most insular immigrant community in the world. I'm obsessed with China Town. They do their own shit. Man, I walk through there every morning because I drop my kid off at school on the Lower East Side, where his school is. And then I walk back to Barry Park

City, which is where I live now. now. And I finally got where I could buy. I left the village because I didn't really want to, but I wanted to get my son of swimming pool and there's no such thing in the building of the village. He lives to swim. But it doesn't suck. I'm looking at, I'm looking at Ellis Island, the Statue of Liberty, and across the governors at Red Hood from where I'm sitting right now. And when I come home with two guitars, a banjo and a mandolin, an elevator doesn't suck. Oh, my God. I'll clap to that. But at any rate, I've done nothing but walk up. for this. But basically, New York can't claim they don't have the money to fund that law.

I know. So, but you have to litigate to get it. You have to at least get an advocate. And there's a company called Susie Lugar Associates that's just an advocacy. They will hook you up with the lawyer for the parts where you need a lawyer. And there are law firms, which is not the most cost-efficient way to do it, that do this type of work, but basically represent kids with families of kids with autism to get the money from the city of New York. And I get the school he goes to is ridiculously expensive. I won't say the number, but it's more than you can imagine. Right.

But the reason for it that it is is because what's recommended for a child with profound autism like John Henry, he's nonverbal. He stopped speaking. He had 26, 27 words way ahead of schedule, 14 months, and none at 19 months. And he hasn't spoken since. Whoa. Oh, man. He's learned a lot of things, and he's made progress. but everything's slow and he learns it different.

But he's smart. He's a problem solver. I got up, you know, my toilet started getting stopped up. And I'm like, what the fuck's going on? And we snake one out one time. And there's socks and toys and food and all kinds. Obviously, John Henry's flushing shit down the toilet. So I'm like, what kind of weird autism behavior is this?

And I come in one morning at breakfast and, you know, I've set up his breakfast. I leave the room. And he's got, he navigates his iPad really well. He kind of lives on it, and he talks with it with a program for one thing at school. And he also just surfs. And I didn't, I've never been on YouTube except to look at my own videos there during the lockdown when I was, when I was doing those guitar videos. And he's on YouTube and he's watching a video called Will It Flush. And it's a whole series.

And it's these dudes. My gosh. Inspiration. And they take his stuff and they're flushing it down the toilet and filming whatever the fuck. occurs, right? Yeah. That's how he started, pledging and stuff down. So I had to, I had to say,

way to go, son, you know? At least he's learning. Just for figuring that out. Hey, Steve, what, you know, my question is, you know, through this, you know, you say you're talking to yourself when you're answering, when you're talking with your kid and stuff, what do you, what have you learned about yourself

through this process of teaching a kid, a kid with autism? That I'm capable of being patient. of being patient if I force myself. I'm not a patient person, but I've been in recovery a long time. That helps a little. And I started the yoga practice about, I don't know,

well, John, January 16, about 13 years ago. And that's, but I started originally because of physical stuff, just trying not to get old so fast, but it sort of happened at the same time as, as like for my 60th birthday, Danny Goldberg took me to Maui to meet Rom Doss. I read Be Here Now when it came out. So this was a big deal for me.

You know, so we go to this retreat. And, you know, Rom Doss had a severe stroke about 20 years before he died. And he was in a wheelchair. And he had a little trouble speaking. And I was just, when I met him, I thought, wow, I wonder what John Henry would think about Ram Dass, what Rom Dundas would think about John Henry. So the following Christmas I brought him back, I brought John Henry with me, went to see Ram Dass. And I've got this picture of them meeting, and it's mind-blowing when you look at it.

It's just electricity. And so I brought him every year after that, you know, until Ram Dass passed away in 2020, about six years in a row. And Ram Dass at one point, one time, he asked me what I've been doing. And I said, you know, John Henry's up dismantling two different puzha tables in Ram Dass's house. And he doesn't care. and he said, what are you been doing? I said, well, I've been doing this, so I've been making that and blah, blah, blah.

But mainly I follow him around, so I guess he's my guru, and Ram Dass just went, pointed his finger out. Like, bingo, you get it. So I learned a lot, and it's mostly about that I'm capable of being better, I'm capable of being more patient, that I'm capable of not automatically reacting anything. because it doesn't do any good with somebody that doesn't have language in the way that you're used to communicating with them. We've found ways around it.

And then when you add puberty to autism, it's like it's two chemical things and the brain colliding at the same time. So it's fucking chaos. He was so great. We made all this progress. He never had any trouble flying. He never had any trouble. He was just as sweet as he could be all the time and nothing but progress in school. And then we started having problems when he was about 14.

But then I went back to everybody I know that was having kids. Like, yeah, 14 years old, they become assholes. And then a few years later, I got my kid back. And just got to live through that. That's all you can do. Eight-year-old boys and 14-year-old boys through about 18 or assholes. And then hopefully they recover from it. And that's the tricky part, you know, after 18, whether they ever actually make that last transition.

Were you ever a rebel when you're a kid? Were you always a rebel? Yeah, I mean, I was just, some of it was just me trying to justify ineptitude. I was so bad at math. I was a kid that did grade in school without even really trying from first grade to fifth grade. And then long division eluded me. I couldn't figure it out. It was just one. she had to start juggling more than one column figures, it just, I didn't, you know, of course, the Beatles happened around the same time, so I was starting to get distracted. So I don't know. I just, I just quit doing things in that class and brought home a D for the first time

in math, and then the next year I failed it. And then I started putting it other things. Then I get a little older still, and I don't know it yet, but obviously I was putting it here to do something with words. Right. And every English teacher I got was a fucking football coach because I was in Texas. You know, and to teach, to teach English is considered all you need is a basic teaching ticket to teach English at the high school level up through high school level in Texas,

which means physical education counts and it shouldn't. Yeah. And it's just one of those things because it's not, I got, and I had like, for instance, I expressed some unpopular opinion, and I was already, you know, but I had an uncle five years older that gave me my first, my first guitar, first three guitars were handmade downs from him. He was left-handed, so once they gave him to me, for a while I just played his guitar upside down, and then I finally figured out, it was when I strung him the other way, things progressed a lot faster. But, and then I got my first Beatles, Stones, Bob from him, you know, his hands. He's, he's,

me down. Up until 1967, he'd lived in our house for two years between 65 and 67. So he would bring the records home, and so I didn't have to buy any records. And we lived in a little town outside of San Antonio, so there was no record store where you could go get them. It's just a dime store. And you could get singles. And a lot of them were sound-alikes. You had to be really careful where you got counterfeits. And because they did those in those days. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. They did Sound-like Beatles records. I did anybody that had a hit. There were sound-alikes out there in the bins. Oh, that's crazy.

It'd be a name similar, you know, like, and kids fell for it from time to time. I did one time on a Beatles record, but the, yeah, I think it was a single then. A single was 49 cents or something, 59 cents or something like that in those days in a dime store. But were you over your parents or like, what was like, were they too strict on you? Did you have to, that's why you had to leave or what? No, no, no. My parents, look, my poor parents went through shit. I mean, my house was a little chaotic because my mom had some.

had some mental health issues, but, you know, she was depressed and they treated her with fucking shock treatments. And she was in and out. It's the 70s. It made a little comeback there. And thank God one flew over this cuckusiness. Shut that down again. And then, you know, it's, it's, they were supportive and almost everything. They were terrified because my uncle got locked up for selling the matchbox of marijuana to a federal narcotics agent when he was 19.

And, and so they were terrified of me. they were terrified because I worship Nick. But I got my first shot of heroin from him too. Wow. And when I was 13. 13. Holy shit. And I was at San Antonio and dope is cheap.

And I did everything. I didn't keep using when I got to, I went to Nashville when I was 19. And I'd gotten more into music and I didn't do it all the time. But it was around that I did, I did dope sometimes. But I mainly just broke and I was trying to, you know, trying to do something.

I bounced. I followed, I ran away from home and I was 14, went to Houston, and I found out about stuff over there. And I knew, once I started playing coffee houses, I knew who Townsham Zant was, and I stalked him. And there was heroin involved in that scene, but I was not allowed anywhere near it because I was so young, those guys would disappear. Him, Rocky Hill, all those guys that when they would get dope, they would all of a sudden just lose me and I found myself sitting in some girl's living room by myself. for anybody damage. It's like 15 years old or 16 years old? Or 19?

By that time, I was 17 and 18. I was 18 when I went over to Houston and finally got to no towns. And then 19 I went to Nashville. And the dope was just prohibitively expensive there. So, you snorted?

I didn't do any more dope until 1986 when Guitar Town came out and I started traveling to places where the dope was worth doing and way cheaper. And I had more money. So, and the things got out of hand really quickly. What did you? By the, by Copperhead Road, by the third album, I was having to fly,

I was out opening for Bob Dylan, and I was flying to San Antonio because I'd talk to methadone program there into giving me, you know, take-outs where I could, I'd never managed to drop a clean urine in my life. Right. So it was, I just, you know, I used drugs for a long time and I didn't, wasn't particular about them for a long time, but I always liked opiates better than anything else. And that was my thing. And that's what finally got me.

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And that's true. So grab Gardanista and let them know Frasco and Jason's huge hog sent you. All right. Goodbye. What did you like about opiates? What was the thing about it that you were just hooked on? Well, I obviously don't need a stimulant for any artificial stimulant for any reason. If you've ever been around me for any late to talk whatsoever.

I'm picking up on that. I'm picking up on that Tuesday. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the deal. I mean, it was, um, me doing Speed was like I almost never did it. It was an announcement from the Department of Redundancy Department. And, um, you know, I think, um, I don't know how that thing worked where they gave riddle into kids and it chilled them out.

You think that it would have worked on me, but it didn't. It made me worse. Yeah. It was, uh, so I just almost never did it. And it was a, Speed was still a thing in Nashville when I got there. Coke hadn't really taken over yet. And as soon as Coke hit, it created a caste system that hadn't, you know, happened before. You know, there was no, before there was Coke all the time, which happened within a year after I got there.

But it was like, you see me, David Olney, people that were at street level and Neil Young in the same room, it would happen. And after hours in Nashville. Yeah. I met Neil Young chauffeering. I was Jerry Jeff Walker's designated driver when he came to, you know, Tennessee because he didn't have a driver's license and he couldn't get caught, you know, driving without a license again. So he had rent a Cadillac without a license somehow and then come pick me up if Guy and Susanna were in town. And I would drive Jerry Jeff around. And that's how

I met Neil was the first time. He probably would even remember that. But it was, he was, the fence manor had just opened the hotel on the road there. And, and Jerry Jeff says, okay, we're going here, we're going there. And he gave me his speed that night because I was driving. And we were going to be up all night. And he said, okay, we're going to go, we're, Neil's over at the Stens Manor. And I didn't know Neil who until we got up there. And it was just kind of, kind of shocking. Hold on. So, oh, the most famous Neil ever. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was Neil, Neil, Neil. Yeah. What are the difference between these hangs back then versus the hangs now? I don't know because I don't hang, you know. I mean, I've got friends that are younger in Nashville,

and it's so much bigger. There's so much. much more going on. There's so much more to do. There's places to play original live music. There were two places you could go play your own songs in Nashville when I got there. Yeah, it's crazy. With Bishop's Pub, which was a basket house. And there was the villager that paid you, well, most people, $10 an hour, I mean, $10 a night. Me and, me and David only had talked them into the new owners took over, bought it from the original owners, and they lied to the new owners and said it only and I got 20 each. So we got to raise them when the Newhunders took over.

But that was it. You could only, you could just get, and there was no place for bands to play original music until the early 80s. And that was like, there was a few places that, there's a place called Franks of the Starings,

which is where the kind of punk rock scene came up. And then Cantrells, you know, was the first place that did touring stuff and local stuff as there started to be kind of an alternative music scene. And I started the three-piece rockabilly band around that time. So I became,

I became sort of one person that had been in the legitimate music business and had a couple of publishing deals and had one at the time. But I, you know, I was a little older than the rest of the got. Jason and the scorchers and I, you know, I carried one of my day jobs. After Justin was born, I panicked. And I had a publishing deal. But I also, I had a job washing dishes and the ring announcer in a restaurant that had boxing, and kickboxing as entertainment.

Whose idea was it to serve bad Mexican food next to the spit bucket, right? You know, it's just not a good business model. Were you ever good of money? Were you ever good of like saving money? No, I'm still not. Still not. So how many times have you been broke? How many times have you like lost it all?

I mean, I lost pretty much everything. I never made over $3,000 a year until 1986 when Guitar Town came out. Holy shit, dude. I was 31 years old. Hold on. How did you survive? You just lived on dope and shit and just what? No, no, no.

I lived on. I had kids. I couldn't live on dope all the time. I had, you know, like, Justin would be... How did you afford to kids, like, with $3,000? You just did it, the same reason everybody has kids. Nobody decides whether they can... I mean, some... The people to decide whether they can have kids or not

are usually having kids for the wrong reasons. Trying to save the relationship, yeah. If you ever run into a woman that's saying, wants to have a baby because it's going to complete her, run like hell, because that's not what... it does. You can tell them, tell them this. What happens when you have a child being rule. Oh, my God. And this doesn't mean I don't, I don't recommend it. It's one of the most rewarding things I've done. But it's like when you have a child, it doesn't complete you. It takes a

piece of your heart, your soul, and it releases it into the universe where you can't control it anymore. And it goes out there and breaks your heart. And that's if what happened to Justin doesn't happen. That's the best thing. case scenario. And you know, you can't parent adults, but nobody seems to know that when their kids become adults. And it's a hard thing. It's a hard fucking road to hoe. What was the hardest divorce you had to go through? I don't even might get into that because it gets, I mean, they were, they're all different. I've been, I've been, I've been the one that left is almost equally. It's a number of times I got left. And every time I got left, I deserved it,

except maybe one. And it ended up being the most expensive one. You know, I just don't, yeah, there's no, there's no upside. What I'm asking is, like, what's your take on love now ever since you've had to deal with this? Oh, I believe in it. I just think that, that, you know, I'm looking around my apartment. I got this apartment that costs a lot of money because of where it is and everything. But I didn't figure this out for a long time, but I got two years.

rolls rolling racks of guitars under a loft bed in my bedroom and I got this sectional in here behind me that is um I don't know you can kind of see it back there yeah and then the over here's a big screen TV on the wall and it's my apartment's basically a fucking tour bus yeah that's the way it's laid out and I didn't even realize I was doing it and I spent years trying to find a woman that would go so I could sleep when I was home I never could find one. That's so funny. I think you just need a sound machine.

Yeah, we need to get you. I'm going to ship you a sound machine. I'm like, yeah, because I sleep way better on the bus too. I can't sleep good when I'm at my house. I love buses. You don't need a wife. You need an app. Yeah, you need an app.

Well, that's the thing. I don't, I don't, look, I believe in it. I just, for one thing, and this will sound like I'm blowing my own horn. You can't make art at the level that I decided when I was 16 or 17 years old that I was going to make it. Yeah. Because I knew Towns Vanzanat and I knew a few other people.

I knew they weren't getting rich doing it, but they were doing it anyway. And I knew I consciously made art to be art my whole career. Where is the best advice he gave you through, you know, I mean, when you met him? He didn't give me advice. He'd give me a part of Barrymore and a Heart of Wind and a copy of a Barrymore and tell me to read it. Oh. Interesting. That's interesting.

He gave me, then he said, he gave me, he sounded I never read, and then he gives me a bear my heart at Wounded Day. And I was, he was living in the cabin that I had found that, that, that, and I lived in for a minute. And I was living in the San Miguel Allende, but I kept driveway rights. And when I would come back to Nashville, the Pitch songs and hang out, I'd park in the driveway. I was getting ready to go back to Mexico. And he said, he said, you never read Bear My Heart of Wind in, he digs in this box of books that he's been dragging around since Austin. and he pulls out a beat to shit, you know, that paperback edition of Barry My Heart of Wounded Knee and gives it to me. And I said, you know, I said, cool.

And he goes, and why are you ready to read this? And he had me a copy of War and Peace. And, okay, so I got to the ninth grade twice and didn't finish it either time, so I had not read Warren Peace. So I take the books. I'm in town, you know, a little bit longer. And I read, you know, Barry My Heart and Wounded Knee really quickly. and I finished War and Peace after a couple of months. And then I come back through and I bring the I return books and tools.

So I took the books back to town. That's a good trait, man. Good man. It's rare. It's fucking rare. Trust me. But I keep the money on. I said, I brought the books back.

He goes, thanks, man. He goes, what did you think? I said, I want to thank you for making me read, bearing my heart of wounded day. I mean, I really, you know, he goes, what about Warren, piece. And I said, well, you know, it's kind of long. But, and then we would talk about friend.

And I finally realized, Towns had never fucking read one piece. It was like, but I did. Did he respect you? Yeah, absolutely he did. But he fucked with me constantly or he wouldn't have bothered with me at all. Yeah, because he was, did you consider him like a mentor? Yeah, he was a mentor. So it was God Clark.

God Clark was more traditional type mentor relationship. But what was your relationship with him? They both love me. They both cared about me. You know you're in trouble when you have to sit through a temperance lecture from Townsend, Zand. And I had gotten in really bad trouble in L.A. And my ex-wife had moved me back to Tennessee thinking, originally she tried to dump me at my parents' house, and she just drove off. And I owned, we owned a house in Tennessee, which I still owned.

and I made my way back to Tennessee and she let me back in. And we were out doing something. And I've been on really bad rips. I was in bad shape. I was shooting dope by that time. And it got back into a speedball thing, which means a lot more needles and a lot more damage and no time to do anything else. Jesus Christ.

And we pull into the driveway in Towns his trucks in the driveway. And we go up, I never locked the door. those days. And we're going, Cavs are sitting in the living room playing one of my guitars. And Teresa walks in with me and she just shakes her head and she goes off in another part of the house.

And he looks at me for a minute. He's sitting playing the car and says, you look like shit. I said, I know. He goes, your arms really look like shit. I said, I know. He said, you got clean needles? I said, yeah.

He said, every time. I said, yeah. I mean, I did reuse needles, but I didn't share him with anybody. Right. He goes, okay, well, look, let me play you the song that I just wrote. And he hadn't written that much for several years. He only written a few songs, and he played Marie. I don't know, where do you know that song or not?

That's my guy, dude. That was it. That was the whole temperance lecture. That was it. Oh, my. Is he staring you in the eyes when he's playing it? No, he closed his eyes like he always said. I don't ever remember Towns singing with his eyes open ever, anytime I ever saw him play.

Did you understand right away? I saw him when he was still, I saw him when I met him was the end of the peak of his powers as a performer. He would stand there not move at all, just close his eyes, and it was riveting. It was like he was still one of the best solo performers I ever saw. Oh, my fucking God. Then what about Guy? What was the difference between him lecturing towns and Guy lecturing you? I would show me stuff that I, you know, about, I mean, some of it I, um, he would show me how he laid songs out on a page.

Yeah. He was very organized about it. And he never, when I started writing digitally, kind of freaked him out. He didn't want to hear about that. He wrote on, you know, the yellow legal path till the day he died. My handwriting is illegible. So as soon as I figured out that I could write on the computer, wake up at the morning and still fucking read it. I was down.

And now I write mostly everything on my phone. Yeah, totally. Because I can put it in notes and it's sitting on my computer and I can drag it into a document when I get home and I don't lose anything anymore. Of course, there's no archives which people tell me are worth money for

years and years and years now. Because it's all been digital. But we've only all this scouring, I've been married so many times scouring through stuff because I was looking because people were asking me about it. my sister started looking, we've managed to find one original lyric in my hand. Oh, my God.

All the shit, all the boxes of stuff that were at my house and my sister's house. So. And that's Johnny Come Lately, the original lyric from Johnny Come Lately. We started writing London. So I don't know. So it made it overseas. Before I talk about, I want to talk about modern songwriters and your take on this. What was it right?

Did you write a lot of your songs on Dope? I didn't write hardly anything. on drugs. I very rarely did that. Oh, so it was more of like an after thing. You're hanging, that was like... Yeah, yeah, it was purely recreation and... How hard was it to get off of it? Really hard, but it was hard to stop some cigarettes.

Yeah, I love cigarettes. Well, they had to lock me up to get me to stop taking drugs. That's how hard it was. I didn't... I slipped to it on three fucking interventions, and I just wasn't going to quit. I was going to die. And then I got locked up and there were programs around and my lawyer figured out that they could get me furloughed to a treatment center. My blood pressure was sky high because I was detoxing from heroin and cocaine and or methadone and cocaine, which is even worse and takes forever to get out of your system because it's metabolized in your liver.

Oh, yeah. It took a year before I felt halfway normal. Wow. I didn't know that actually. But my blood pressure gotten really high after I've been in jail about a week and a half. and the sheriff had had somebody die in the jail of a drug overdose, but did not want me when the doctors told them that I was likely to have a stroke or something from drug withdrawal, which probably I would have survived it.

I was only, I was 39, you know, and, but the judge, the sheriff didn't want me in her jail. And the judge had sentenced me illegally. He'd given me 11 months and 29 days at 75% for simple possession of a tenth of a gram of heroin, first defense. never had a drug chart. Whoa, that's crazy. But, well, I didn't show up for my sentencing hearing in that. This is judges all. He's like, oh, you want to fucking play, motherfucker?

I was in a methadone. I was in a methadone program in Georgia because you could only get like 60 milligrams in Tennessee. And you get 10010 and Georgia, so that's where I went to get my methadone. Oh, okay. Well, it was, so I missed, missed that sentencing hearing. And, you know, he still wasn't a legal sentence, but it was not going to be, there was no upside. 75% meant doing nine months of it, you know? So I, but he finally, they talked to let me furlough to a treatment center that the state had a deal with.

It was a bare bones place called Buffalo Valley, and I went there. And first I thought I would walk out of there. And, you know, as soon as I got feeling better. But then I figured out nobody, the Hoanwold Police, Hoanwall's in Lewis County, Tennessee. It's called Lewis County because Meriwether Lewis killed himself there. And it's not like when I was He was on his way back For an uplifting turn

And he was He got a stage coach station there He had a bad day And offed himself Shy himself But the It's weird because it was like And there's an elephant sanctuary there

So if you go out Walk out of the treatment center And go the wrong way You run into a fucking elephant In middle Tennessee Which go right back to treatment If you run into that Yeah

Yeah yeah Well it was just one that was rescuing circus and elephants and elephants from zoos that had closed, and she had two of them there at the time. So I just finally figured out that I wasn't going anywhere, and I at some point decided I didn't want to die, and I started listening. And I went back to jail when I finished the program after 29 days.

And I did the rest of, I did about, I did like six more, weeks or something like that. And then finally the judge let me go. And I got out. And I met any friends or important people in jail that kind of inspired you? No, I mean, I met a bunch of people that were like me are in worse shape. And, you know, I think, look, the odds of this are the 84 men that were in that treatment center.

I'm the only one that stayed clean for this long. Oh, shit. A few, a few I know. Some died. Some got clean later. and stayed clean. Oh, okay. I hired a driver who was a guy that I'd been in there with,

but he was way younger than me, and his drug of choice was inhalants. He came from East Tennessee, and they built a lot of boats over there, so straight toguillines everywhere, and it's a big deal over there as a drug of choice. But for some reason, one of the counselors was just an example of how, you know,

drugs and alcohol fuck up your life. He's an old AA guy. He goes, how many people here have a valid driver's license and one guy raised their hand. Wow. And it was this guy Randy, and I remembered it. And he got out a few weeks after me. And I wrote him a letter, and I hired him as my driver when he got out.

And he lived in my family for a while and drove me for the first. So it took me forever to get my license back. I'd never had a moving violation to take. I just, my license expired. And they didn't have any heroin or cocaine. It's a driver's license, Bureau, so I didn't go there. It just wasn't the place I went. Yeah, you don't have anything I want there.

Hold on, Steve. Do you think jail actually helps recovering addicts, or is it, you have to really do the work? Not normally. I don't recommend it. I say if you get a chance to go to the Betty Ford Center or someplace like that, which I had an opportunity, go. Yeah. You know, that's way more likely to work. In my case, it worked.

But nowadays, there aren't any programs like I got. You go to jail, you're fucked. Yeah. They're not trying to help anybody keep claim. They're trying to run up numbers. Right. It's all privatized. It's all about.

They're just trying to put numbers in there. And that was invented in the state of Tennessee. That's where Corrections Corporation of America is based. Is it true there's more drugs in prison than on the street? No, but there are drugs. Right, right. Okay. Anything that exists in the outside world exists in this kind of cracked mirror version.

Inside, like they introduced, somebody introduced like while I was there and after I came back in treatment, they did a big drug roundup, and it's really hard to get everybody completely. Somebody got in there with, I know, two $20 rocks and started slicing them thin. Oh, my God. And, you know, he had all cigarettes and all the zoosos and wham-wams in the institution.

It was, you know, there was no cash in there. You had a debit card that your family could put money on, and you could get, like, they call them zoososos and wham-wams in jail, but it's like any kind of, you know, snacks. Right. There's also products in the machines like lotion because there's a lot of black folks there. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, black folks got to have lotion.

And so that was, so me and one, we had the first commissary run in my cell, which was 50 guys in a dormitory type cell, and there's four of those in this building we were in. And we like, I had people putting money on my car. There were some people that didn't have anybody. And me and a guy that I knew from the street that I, that I, was in there that I'd bought drugs from on the street that happened to be there when I got there, he'd kind of save my ass and show me the rubs. Me and him would go to commissary.

He would always say when they'd call say, commissary is necessary. And we'd go and we'd buy all the tizzy roll pops because we liked them. And we'd buy all the lotion. And we would have every fucking cigarette that was, and there was no smoking, but the trustees could get them from the guards and you could get them from the, trust us. Okay, okay. And a cigarette was expensive. I mean, people usually

get a cigarette and they would break it up into four roll-ups. You know, get papers. And sometimes you use the wrappers on toilet paper for cigarette papers because we couldn't always get them. And, but if you smoke the whole thing, that was called a Cadillac. And I smoked

Cadillacs. That's my guy. I was there. So I did okay. But, um, I didn't smoke very much. I should have just quit. I was lucky I could smoke one cigarette, maybe two a day. Oh, so you got back on the horse, with the cigarettes after jail, and you loved it. Oh, you started smoking like Chief Wahoo by the time I'd been out three or four hours.

It was ridiculous. The straight up Cleveland Indian over there. Yeah, no. Hey, Steve, I got. I'm a Yankees fan all my life. I was just being pinstrives when I was six by my granddad, and I didn't have a choice. What do you think Americans love more,

a redemption story or a downfall story? I think it depends on the American. I think that's why we're in the trouble that we're in now. Right. Yeah, talk about that a little more. This is a big country. And one of the biggest mistakes the left makes is assuming that everybody would even, in a country this big, and who makes their livings completely different and don't see anything but people that look just like them,

assuming they would think just like people that live on the East Coast and know how we interface with the rest of the world. Now, I grew up in occupied Mexico. So immigration, I've always known the truth about that. Not everybody grows up where I did. You know why Antonio Lopez de Santana, who is president of Mexico and also the General Lee Samoa, the Army. Do you know why he attacked Texas in 1836? Well, we're taught is because he hated our freedom.

Right. He attacked them because they were holding slaves, which was illegal in Mexico, and they were in Mexico. Oh, fuck. And we're not taught that. And you had to be Catholic. had to not own slaves in order to get that land those people got. And they took that land on those terms. And then they started bringing in slaves because they wanted to grow cotton. And there was always a backdoor deal with the United States that, hey, stand on your own

for 10 years and we'll fund you. And that's exactly what happened. And we'll make you part of the United States. And that's what happened. That's what the Mexican War, 1846, like clockwork, we marched down and take Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, and California. You think we're going to have a civil war, Steve? Um, I don't think it's, um, I don't, uh, but I tend to be an optimist. So you can't really listen to me, you know. That's my man. I agree, actually. Um, it's one of those things that, um, I don't know. This is the test. There's not any doubt about it. But, but look, we're up against something

that's so much bigger than we are and we're being really dumb about it. And it's a lot of people. There are a lot of people that voted for Donald Trump that aren't. They're crazy. They're just people whose lives weren't getting any better, and they were lied to, and they bought it. And we have to remember that. And you can't, the left can't have to stop talking down to those people. I was on Air America. I was one of the original air personalities on Air America.

Yeah, yeah. And I was there for most of the time it existed. Well, I was there until the very end. I left a little bit before my show was on the weekend, so I left before it completely ended. and, you know, there were people on the channel that spent all their time talk about how stupid everybody was because they were, you know, they believed this, and they believed that. And not everybody that believes differently than you is stupid.

It's very condescending. And not everybody's a racist. And not everybody's the fascist, but Donald Trump is, and that's the problem. So, you know, it doesn't matter how many Nazis, how many members of the Nazi party were there for, just for survival. And there were lots of other Germans. They just went along when they just fine

as long as they still had a job and they felt like they bought the idea that they were the master race. And so they're complicit. It's one of those things. But that's where we are. And people don't want to believe that. And they've decided it's not,

how is this not fascism? Fascism is defined as a relationship between the military and the very richest, most powerful people to see. sort of control things without bothering with any sort of democratic process. That's what fascism is. And it's like that last stab of power that we realize we're not really the strongest power anymore. And we can't.

The deal with Trump is he's so power addicted that he really does believe with all his heart. I'm the president. I should be able to do anything I want. And he sees himself as doing the public service by, you know, making it easier for presidents to come after him. I think if he really, sometimes I think he thinks he can live forever. Look, Barack Obama promised he was going to close, he was going to close, you know, yeah, Guantanamo. And then that disappeared immediately and people left, he started asking why.

It's because he was taken into a room and was told why he could, did not have the fucking power to close Guantanamo. Oh, yeah, yeah. We have a military too, and they do have the gun. guns. And I'm a lot of them. A lot of them. A lot of them. And the deal is I, well, here's the real twister right now.

We're running out of guns fighting this war that we're fighting right now. Trump's about to empty the fucking war chest if he keeps doing what he's doing. And I don't know what happens down. That's what I'm saying. I mean, that's what they're trying to do, I think. I mean, that's what Russia and China are trying to do, I think. They're trying to, all right, fucking do all your proxy wars and you'll have nothing.

We'll sell you stuff. And then we're fucked. Right. And you buy our stuff. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, but I think that we're at a point where I think that it's going to start with the midterms and you're going to see things.

If it's not overwhelming, I think at least it's going to be something and it's going to be a step towards you're going to see some encouraging signs that some of those people that voted for Trump are going to say, oh, we fucked up. We made a mistake. They're not going to admit they were wrong. And we need to not insist that they admit that they're wrong. They have the right to be wrong and vote for whoever they want to, and they have a right to change their fucking minds in the next election.

And if they don't, we are fucked. So don't do anything to discourage gentlemen. Let's be exclusive here. Let's bring them into the fold. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What about, you know, songwriters now? Why are they afraid to write about?

Why are they afraid to put their... Well, not everybody should do it, you know. It's one of those things that's not easy to do. I don't know. I don't... I'm not a political songwriter. I mean, I am writing, I just wrote a song called Volvera Salaya, which I just recorded with Los Lobos, and it'll be out very soon. And it's about a guy that grew up in Mexico and comes to Texas and makes a whole life and has kids in the whole bed.

And one of his kids goes to Afghanistan and two of his kids go and one doesn't come back. And then his wife dies of natural causes at the end of the song. And he decides he's going back to Salaya where he came from because this isn't the country that he built a life in anymore. And I finished it and I knew Lobos had. I also, me and Faro in the Dark, the Brazilian band that I recorded that city of immigrants with on Washington Square, I had 20 years. We shot a new video of City of Immigrants and that's getting ready to come out this week. So, I mean, basically, Bruce did what he did.

Morello went to Minnesota and I'm like, fuck, I'm supposed to be the political guy. I need to do something here. So I, you know, we do what we do. And Bruce does it because he can. And Morello doesn't give a fuck. And he's one of my favorite people in the world. We've done a lot of stuff together. But I'll see them.

My tour starts in D.C. the night before theirs ends there. So I'm going to, I'll be at the D.C. The last year. You got to play with them? No. Morello's sitting in with them. They were locked in. I saw Bruce over the weekend for the awards for the American Music Honors that he

established out in Monmouth because I got, I was in the first class. and I went and they inducted the doors I went and sang Roadhouse Blues for the on the show the other night it's a blast and Bruce was there and Dre was there and and it was Chuck D and yeah Bruce and Dre

and I haven't seen I haven't seen Chuck D since we were together on Air America 20 years ago we had the only two music shows on the channel together and it was good to see him so it was a lot of fun what a light Steve I could talk to you forever thanks so much for being being the man

Thanks for inspiring so many musicians. You're the best. My one last question, before we get our producer, do his question. Actually, do, hey, come over and do you. Come over here. Get over here. I want to show you, I want you to talk to our producer, Neil. He has one question for you.

Hey, Neil. All right. This, I have a short one, maybe depending on your answer. What is on top of your refrigerator right now? On top of my refrigerator, I have an embarrassingly big high-tech refrigerator that there's no top. There's no top. So the closest thing to that in my apartment, what would it be? I can show you there's a Puget table, which is like got pictures and stuff and stuff.

You might stick on your refrigerator, but it's also got a piece of a kola, a quarter mola, of one of the ones is bracelet length that has a tiny piece of red thread that came from Neme Kurole Baba's blanket that Ram Dass gave me. Jesus. And there's, and there's, let's see, there's a bunch of silver ingots in the shape of fender guitar,

stratacters, telecasters, jazz messrs. My sister's giving me for Christmas every year. That's my miniature guitar collection. That's awesome. And there's, you know,

there's a bunch of Hindu deities. and a coal miner's carbide lamp that one of the guys, one of the miners that survived the explosion upper big branch gave me. So I would have the usual shit on my refrigerator, and I did in my last apartment with magnets. I sit and my kid brought home from school, and some of that stuff's on that table too. But I moved into this apartment,

and it's got wooden doors on the eyesight, and shit doesn't stick to it. If you try to stick something on there, just falls down. That is a highly serious. satisfying answer. Thank you so much. Thank you, Neil, for all your, all your great questions. Thank you. Thank you. Steve, we got, thank you so much for being part of the show. I really appreciate it. My last question, do you have any regrets or any things you wish you done differently versus not?

Or if not, you felt like you learned your lessons. Oh, I mean, you know, I think my regrets are, none of it has to do with art or you know it's hard to regret art you do what you do and maybe it was a sec I mean I could have a bigger audience if I hadn't done some things but I definitely don't regret those things because I did them in my eyes off

most of the regrets I have are about hearts I broke you know along the way people that got hurt and it was my fault and there's not need doubt about it and so I've regrets about that you're an asshole if you don't so yeah that's probably it well you are the man thanks for inspiring

so many musicians to be better at the art of word. And thanks for just keeping on going, brother. We're here. We're rooting for you. So thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thanks, Steve. Have a good one.

You're there, man. Bye. See you.