Andy Frasco's World Saving Podcast - Tom Russell (Co-Founder of Governor's Ball)

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

  Backstage Drama at Governor Ball When Headliners Bail and Budgets Explode Ever wondered what it takes to put on a massive music festival in the heart of New York City? Well you're about to find out, because we're diving deep into the world of festival promotion with Tom Russell, co-founder of Governor's Ball. In this episode, we're pulling back the curtain on the music industry's biggest events, exploring the challenges, triumphs, and disasters that come with organizing a multi-million dollar festival. From dealing with fickle artists to navigating city politics, Tom lets us in on what really goes on behind the scenes. Yep, We've Got a Ye Story Get ready for some good ones, including: The time Kanye West bailed mid-set An amazing lineup that lost tons of money The evolution of festival crowds and why your sneakers might be in danger WTF is Happening to the Music Industry?! We're not just talking about Governor's Ball. Tom shares his thoughts on: The current state of the jam band scene Why EDM exploded onto the festival circuit How changing music tastes affect festival lineups Talking Business. Are we all Screwed? Ever wondered how much it really costs to put on a festival? Tom breaks down: The eye-watering budget for Governor's Ball How festivals compete with venues like Madison Square Garden The delicate dance between promoters, agents, and artists Advice for Aspiring Industry Pros If you've ever dreamed of working in the music industry, Tom's got some great tips for you. Learn why internships might be your secret weapon and how to stand out in a crowded field. So grab your VIP wristband and join us for an unfiltered look at the thrills, spills, and bills of the festival world. You might even walk away with a newfound appreciation for your next over-priced venue beer. Need a visual aid to accompany your podcast? Watch this episode now on Volume.com & YouTube. We're psyched to partner up with Volume.com! Check out their roster of upcoming live events and on-demand shows to enrich that sweet life of yours. Don't forget to sign up for OnlyFrasco for the latest and greatest from Andy, plus exclusive monthly live streams. Call and leave us a message: [phone]  Check out our new album Growing Pains on all platforms, out now! Follow us on Instagram @worldsavingpodcast For all things Frasco, go to: AndyFrasco.com Produced by Andy Frasco, Nick Gerlach, Joe Angelhow, & Jack Gould

Wow. We did it. Andy Frasco's world saving podcast. It is festival season people. Yes. Oh yes. Festival season is here. Yep. Most of them are back. Most of them for now. Including a very big one that we interviewed. Yeah, we just interviewed the founders of New York's biggest music festival, Governor's Ball. Yeah. That was awesome. He was incredible.

Yeah, you know, you think these guys would be a little more pretentious, but they're not. I would be if I was them, but I don't know, I guess not. He's like a music fan though. Yeah, he was wearing a fish sweatshirt. What does this thing with every major guy in music, whether they're booking Jam Band shit or not, all started as fish fans.

I have an idea of that. An idea? Because as a business mind, they probably respect the fuck out of fish, how they built this fucking career. They're geniuses. And no fucking singles, no singles on the radio, just straight live music.

Also, their business model is pretty, like really good. They keep it all, all their money in house. They make their own merch, did you know that? By the way, this is Nick Urlach, my co-host. They know who I am. He's the 80 Frascas World's Savin' Pocket. They know who I am by now. Welcome back.

They've already turned it off. They're like, fuck. This asshole. What are they gonna do just a Nick only one again? Yeah. But Fish has a crazy business model where they keep everything in house. They're very smart with that.

That's why I wanted to get this guy on the show. I don't do it. I'm just kidding. I don't even know. You pulled a Kanye on there. I don't even know that's true actually. Oh my God. But yeah, it's,

being a promoter in this day of age takes some fucking balls. I'd rather be an ER doctor, I think. Granted, you know, you got a bank that's Live Nation or AEG, whatever it is, when you're on these bigger festivals, but just like put your dick out there and be a music festival promoter, founder, takes a lot of co-owness. And on the topic of having a bank like Live Nation,

you have to get yourself to the point where they will give you money. Exactly. Also, they will bail on you so fucking fast. It's not like, they're not like homies where it's like, oh, I'll bankroll another one. What was that? There's like, Mountain Jam.

Yeah. I think it's called Mountain Jam. Yeah, yeah. West Virginia? No, no. Woodstock, New York. Oh, that, yeahound Jam. Yeah, yeah. West Virginia? No, no. Woodstock, New York. Oh, that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Live Nation or some of them,

one of them bought Mound Jam from this guy, Gary. And which I'm kind of frustrated with Gary. He didn't book me on his festival and he promised me, but anyway. Is this the Catskill Chill guy? No. No, but it's around there. I'm onto you, Gary. Yeah, Gary

You did a good job not asking Tom Russell if you could be play the festival next year, dude You fucking try to burn me in the beginning. No, we're homies. He knew he knows us already. Yeah Yeah, he said he's listened before try to burn me in the beginning. It wasn't I gonna ask you Oh, he thought it was funny. So annoying. Most people know Joe But like when I'm asking you you gotta, it's better. It wasn't during the interview. I know, but like you doing it before just to get a fucking quick joke,

doesn't make the interview when he gets a surprise at me asking. Then it's like. I didn't think you were gonna actually ask him that. I was. What the fuck? You'll get on there. I don't think that'll fuck you, dude.

I know, but like, just like, it's like telling someone the questions before. No. The interview. I didn't think you'll fuck you, dude. I know, but like, just like, it's like telling someone the questions before the interview. I didn't think you would actually ask him that. You know I'm not a pussy. I ask anyone anything. You know I have no line. Yeah, I ain't no fucking softy. I bet you get on anyway.

No, I'm not. He told a straight head. It's young fans. Yeah, it's like no 35 year olds. Yeah, no, yeah. All Jam fans are like 40 years old now. He said the festival scene's gotten way younger. I think that's cause of EDM a little bit too.

And pop. He said he's like only booking pop and rock. Yeah, weird. But you're gonna love this interview. I mean, if you like the business side of music, all the bands out there who like are wondering how to get on Bonnaroo and wondering how to get on Governor's Ball. Governor's Ball, Coachella, and ACL.

We just talked to the fucking founder of one of these big ass festivals and he was honest about the whole thing. He was cool. You know, he didn't sugarcoat it. I felt like a lot of these guys probably sugarcoated it here. But we're going to get more of these guys. I want to get Outside Land's guy on there. He was pretty practical.

I got to get John Bonjorno on there. He was pretty practical. I gotta get John Bonjorno on there too. Where's the Outside Lands again? Is that in California? No. Yeah, it's in San Francisco. We should call John. It's in San Francisco.

Let's see what's his take on these thunders. Isn't it? In the Bay. My sister goes to it. We should call him. He probably won't answer. I could tell when he's super busy. Yeah.

He's short with me on text sometimes. Hold on. This is my agent, John Bonjorno. Yep, I knew it. That's his voice. Call me John Bonjorno. That's hilarious. He put you right to the, he didn't even let it ring.

Nope, he knows. He's in a meeting with someone that makes more money than you. Oh, hold on, let me text. On a team call. Yeah, sure. I want to put you on the pod. He knows he's in a meeting with someone that makes more money than you text on a team call. Yeah sure I want to put you I want to put you on the pod with the whole team to talk He's on a team call

With the whole team on the pod Okay, Governor's ball All right, never mind But you know agents, you know John's a big agent. He manages he books krung been he books royal Oh, it is who know, John's a big agent. He books Crungbin, he books Royal Oedas, who's on Governor's ball. I'm just curious to hear both sides of the story of, you know, it's like-

The push and pull of it all. The push and pull of it, you know, to like, to get these big headliners, you know, do you need to do, is there a negotiating power to get some of their smaller bands on? Sounds fun. It's like you're holding the cards, you're both holding cards.

You both have some leverage. You both have some leverage. You both have some leverage. It was very fascinating. We love leverage in this podcast. We love leverage. Oh, I almost never have it, but God damn it, I do. Man, speaking of leverage, volume.com. Speaking of leverage.

Sign up for our only Frasco subscription. Listen, everyone, this is what's going down. We are doing less things on the internet. So this is the way to get a hold of more content. If you can't see this band play a lot because you might be in some job, you have a job or life, or you know, it's getting expensive. We keep the shows cheaper,

but it's still expensive to go travel, do your thing. And if you just wanna watch the band from the comforts of your home, five bucks a month will give you one livestream every month. You can still watch this from your house. You go chug a beer with your, hey, Frasca's playing this Friday. Bring your neighbor.

Yeah. Make it a party. Get drunk in your basement. And we're gonna be doing exclusive podcasts and Nick's setting up a really hot and really cummy. Trivia show. Platform, if you will. Nick's going too.

We're gonna be competing for your. Yeah, I'm gonna destroy you actually. I don't think so. That'd be so fun. That would be funny. We should just do this together, but if you wanna do your own thing. No, I think one thing in my life could be not connected to you, maybe. Then I don't know why I That'd be so fun. That would be funny. We should just do this together, but if you wanna do your own thing. No, I think one thing in my life

could be not connected to you, maybe. Then I don't know why I'm pushing so hard to be. Because you're my friend. Oh yeah, right. And you care about me and you want me to be successful. Because you're not around me all the time. I need something to do when you're on the road with your band 200 days a year.

Andy thinks I just like, I'm like the Indian in the cupboard and like, I turn, like as soon as he, let me sit up. Andy thinks I'm like the Indian in the cupboard. And like, I turn like, as soon as he, let me sit up. Andy thinks I'm like the Indian for cupboard. And like, he's like, oh, I'm going to on the road tomorrow. He thinks he just like puts me in a closet. I just like turn into a statue. And then he texts me when he gets home. It's like, can you come over and set up the studio

and I come to life? That's what you think it is, isn't it? Right? Have you ever heard of- You also do trivia. Yeah, but I don't do it when you're not there. Have you ever heard of- You also do trivia. Yeah. But I don't do it when you're not there. Have you ever heard of Sonder? No.

It's like when you realize that other people also have their entire lives and thoughts and feelings too. Oh, hey, hey. You've been telling me that- They're not just characters in a movie. No, the world doesn't evolve around me. Not even that. Evolve around you? Revolve. Revolve. And evolve around you.

But it's like when you rise, everybody has their own like full life too. And you're just a character in their life as well. Something to think about. Anyway, volume.com, sign up for both Nick and my. Sign up for his thing, mine's not ready yet. Just do his first. It will be when this comes out.

If you have extra money, do mine. Andy's an important one. We all know how this. Oh my God. Look at this. I'm so good at this. I went from- A little fucking Eeyore over here. I don't know where that's from. That was my nickname in high school. I gotta stop. I'm just gonna start thinking about myself. Finally.

I try to get everyone paid out here and everyone's just like, I have a complaint. I don't know. I don't know. Have I ever complained? You're pissed when they, when, you know- When? I'm not going into it. I'm not pissed. I'm not getting into it. You're you're complaining me with other people in your life

Aren't you son over volume back home? How you doing Nick what else is going on? I'm actually doing really well. It's a festival season Are you on any festivals this year? This is a festival episode. No, I'm doing a bunch of after parties for whites for a panic and shit Like really I'm doing Asheville after party What I'm playing with a Coltette we're gonna do Asheville in July. That's sick. We're at the Asheville music hall The one-stop the bottom part. I know it's gonna be sick. I got a local band. Well, I said July I want to go You should go it's like late July. Yeah and and panics plan. That'd be sick. We should go to Governor's Ball next week. I'm down.

This is a- New York City, I think, you know what I'm getting? You think the hook is up with like sick tickets? Probably, we're pretty important. Damn, we are kind of important. People, founders wanna be on our podcast. It's in Queens too, I like that. I haven't really spent much time-

I thought it was on an island. It was, it moved, It's moved like four times. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It just keeps getting bigger? Probably, yeah. Or just cheaper to do it. God, it must be a pain in the ass

to deal with the fucking city of New York. Blech. Sounds fucked. I don't even like it on Instagram. It's hard to deal with the city of Denver. I love New York City, but it is a lot. It's a lot. I couldn't live there.

I wanna go, that sounds fun. Who's on it, Royal Otis? God damn it, I think Tyler, the creator. Mm-hmm. I gotta look again, but there's a bunch of badass, like, pop stars. So head over to Governor's Ball, it's gonna be great. If you're in the New York,

you know, a lot of New York fans on this podcast, go. Tom's a really good guy. He was cool, let's hope. He was cool, he used to, Superfly was it? Yeah. Superfly, he was one of the top dogs at Superfly. Which produced Bonnaroo. Produced Bonnaroo.

Not anymore. I like his story, he said, hey, are you going to, I wanna start my own big thing. And they're like, well, good luck. Yeah. And then he fucking did it, so shout out to Tom. Yeah.

It's a good job. I don't think they do Bonnaroo, they must've sold Bonnaroo, huh? I think, no, they still do it. I thought they sold it. Or what, to who? C3? Superfly or something. Well, C3. No, Live Nation.

Live Nation. They did sell it to Live Nation. Well, C3 is Live Nation too. So they might've sold to C3 before they went to, it's all like a big monopoly soon. I know. Yeah, well, whatever. Pretty exciting. What else are you mad at me about? That's it. Nice.

Just existing? No. Just having my own life and... No, I work hard for you. And you work hard for me. We work hard. We have a really good working relationship, actually. We do.

You've never yelled at me. Everybody says you yell at them. Never yelled at you. I don't think I've ever done anything. Everyone who said I'm fucking yelled at, that's kidding. I was just trying to get under here. But I probably, Bo, I think you've yelled at Bo. I'm just kidding. I was just trying to get under here. Probably Bo.

I think you've yelled at Bo. I've yelled at Bo. Yelled? I can't see you yelling. No, I've just gotten frustrated. I think you're more of a passive aggressive guy when you get mad at people. I normally yell at a mirror. Yeah, the thing is you don't beat anybody up harder than you beat yourself up, so.

Why do we do that to ourselves? I don't know. It's just natural, I guess. Stupid. But people are like, Andy can be so, I'm like he's always nice to me maybe you should show up on time and do your fucking job. Speak to him Nick! Tell him how you feel Nick! Mr. On Time never. Yeah. Only minimal mistakes. I am a human being. I'm not perfect or anything. I don't complain about doing my job. No, you're right. I don't. No.

Or do I? No, I don't think so. Not any more than like a normal person. No. You're allowed to complain sometimes. It's okay to complain. Yeah, no, but just not. You can't make it your personality. What do you complain about? Hmm. I don't think I'm a big complainer.

You're not a complainer. But I'm more of a pointer out or an observer. That's complaining. Yeah, but more about stuff for other people. Nothing's really pissing me off right now. You're really grizing my gears. Maybe that's politics are kind of annoying, but that's everybody's complaining about.

That's normal. I don't know too much about politics. I'm starting to get into just hearing people's opinions. I'm hearing every side of the opinion, which is kind of cool. But it's also getting me confused. It's very confusing because everybody's so dumb too. Everyone's dumb and they all think they're fucking smart. And it's just like, then I'm just like, damn, am I dumb?

It's like the more readily you give your opinion, the less interested in it. Like, am I dumb thinking these people are dumb? No, you're allowed to have your own opinion too. Okay. This is not the talk. This is music festival episode. Am I dumb thinking these people are dumb? No, you're allowed to have your own opinion too. Okay. Anyway, this is not the talk. This is a music festival episode. Yeah, but we're not even saying anything about politics. We're just saying shut up about it. What about the politics of being in a music festival? Oof. There's gotta be a ton of... I mean, there's a lot of politics. There's gotta... Dude, there's...

Bureaucracy, red tape. These guys deal with... I'm trying to see... It's like high school probably, like trying to get to a high school prom date, you know? Think about with every state has a festival trying to book the same bands. And the bands are like, I wanna take every show. So the agents have to really like negotiate. You're cutting out the radius clause for this

so they could do this, if you want this type of deal. So it's like, it's a juggle man. Yeah, like for my show opening you for August, I was like, I'm not doing a radius clause. You do radius clause? They tried to make me, I was like, I'll do one before, but not after. What'd they say?

60 days or something, I'm either side, I'm like, I'm just opening, okay? It's a free show. I think it's just a standard thing they put in everything. Yeah. I was just fucking with them. It's live nation too. Yeah, my show's three months,

my show before is three months ahead, so. Are you excited for your big show? Opening for you at Levitt? No. Oh, well that already happened. That's the biggest one you've done in a while. Yeah, it'll be sick. But, no, don't you have another show, like a headline show?

Yeah, but that'll already happen at this point. I'm opening for Victor on Friday. Oh. Yeah, yeah. How was that? Great. Band smashed, Victor, the Wooten Brothers, incredible, great crowd. Seemed like a killer show, everyone was stoked.

Everyone was super stoked, the band's really good, we're better than ever. That's how you do it. The Coltet, baby! That was funny. I am stoked for the Levitt Pavilion thing, I haven't played there in a while. I played there with Opio two years ago, that was fun.

I love that place. Dude, it's fun as shit. I think more people are going to that now. I think they're getting out of the little Red Rocks vortex. Yeah, I mean, and like it's so hard to get dates anymore. At Red Rocks. So it's like, you might as well do a big show in your local town.

When I first moved here, Red Rocks had like 80 shows a year, now they have like 200 I feel. It's crazy, yeah. They start booking Red Rocks now in March. Yeah, I played my first year. The fuck? I played Red Rocks four times the first year I lived here. And it was like a way different kind of bands

were playing here. It was more of like a, it felt like more of a thing. Now, P, it's like a gig. Do you think the Mission Ballroom did that? I love going to Mission. Speaking of Red Rocks, I have shows to announce. Oh, you're playing? I'm going on tour.

We're going on our little bus tour, our little summer tour. June 12th, Washington, D.C. Ooh, I'll tell my brother to come. What is that, 930 Club? Yeah. Yep. That's in D.C. Yeah, June 13th, Dewey Beach, excited to go back there.

Oh, Ryan Felipe. Ryan Felipe, the 14th, we're at Northlands with Ali Kroll playing. Is that a festival? Yeah, it's in Swansea, New Hampshire. Take a breath, we're at Northlands with Ali Kroll. Is that a festival? Yeah, it's in Swansea, New Hampshire. Take a breath. You got a heartburn? Got a little heartburn.

I drank too much coffee today. The 15th, we're doing a private party. Damn, those old Jews love my ass. I'm doing a private party. That horror's paying off. That horror is paying off. Shout out, dude. Every time you do the horror, you get another 10 grand.

A little more than that. Straight from the Israel. Ha! Jesus fucking Christ. Then I got three days off, and then we head to Almond, Colorado. Almond, Colorado, listen, I'm actually coming this time. Is this the one you had to- Second time I've canceled, I will not cancel. You canceled twice on them?

Once I was sick, cause of Red Rocks. The other one that we thought there was gonna be a snow storm because the next day was Mission Bar. So we canceled it and then it was a fucking beautiful day and I got shitted on. That's not even fair. I'm sorry, but I will be playing at June 19th. June 20th, Cheyenne, Wyoming. I'm excited with that. Then 21st at June 19th June 20th Cheyenne Wyoming

I'm excited with that then 21st except for this one free show at Steamboat Springs, Colorado 22nd free show in I'm trying to it's the Economy plan. Yeah, I'm trying to do a lot more free shows so everyone could afford to go the 22nd Huntsville, Utah 25th Jackson Hole, Wyoming. 26, Pine Creek. I'm excited, Livingston, Montana. Missoula, Montana on the 27th.

Boise on the 28th. And then High Sierra Music Festival. Oh, shit. Three and four. Then I fly the fifth to Sherman, New York for Blue Heron Music Festival. That sounds fun. Long drives though.

Long drives, but we have the tour bus. Or the bandwagon. Get ready, Gonzo. Gonzo, get ready. You better put something on his Uber. Put that Eye of the Tiger on, baby. Uber hand job card he's got going. Better start lubing up that arm.

So weird, he likes to beat off while driving. Wait, what? I didn't know this part. You don't know this? I only know about the him getting- He says it relaxes him. Yeah. I don't want my driver too relaxed.

I mean, at night, you know, it's like, I get it. You drink seven cups of coffee, it's four in the morning, there's no one on the road, crank one out, but I've never done that. We've all done that. It's kind of weird. I mean, I haven't but I've never done that. It's kind of weird. I've never jerked off while driving. No, I'm looking at my phone.

It's too busy to, I can't do three things. Fucking weird. No, I didn't know about that. I knew about the other thing we talked about last time with the massage parlors. Oh yeah, he loves that too. Guy loves getting jerked off, I guess, no matter who does it.

All right guys, enjoy Tom Russell, enjoy everything, and Nick, cheer up Charlie. I'm fine, what are you talking about? Cheer up. Eeyore was my nickname in high school though. You do kind of Eeyore out sometimes. Why? If I brag about some types of money, like, oh, lucky you.

I've never said that I don't think. I said, wow, nice, when you told me about some gig you had yesterday, that's sick. Oh, lucky you. I didn't say that, don't think I said wow nice when you told me about some gig you had yesterday That's so lucky you I didn't say that you're just big now. You're making shit up Just just wait for me. Well, I In the class Andy wants that's so funny. That's a great movie though. I know what's that movie called? Indian in the cupboard. It's also a famous children's book. It's a great movie. Yeah, it's also a book I don't I hope you don't I don't feel that way. It's a great movie. Yeah, it's also a book. I hope you don't, I don't feel that way.

It's a joke, we're on a podcast, Andy. I know, I have to tell you something. I forgot you're sensitive. Yeah, everyone doesn't like me right now. Oh really? Yeah. Oh, well. But they like you and the salary.

Because I'm being a strict dad. What do you mean? I'm just being stricter. Like on the road? Like what, you have to be in bed by midnight or what? Well, not that strict. Like how strict can you be? They're adults. I'm just not partying with them as much.

You don't have to. That's actually good. Yeah. It's not a, it's a business. Trying to lay down laws. Yeah. It's good to think about. Trying to keep us alive. Try to live in past 75 or. Yeah, 160.

Trying to have that with the whole band. Yeah. I don't think that's bad. Okay. I'm not mad at you at all. I'm not mad that you're making money. I don't know why you have this in your head. You think I'm out to get you bad. Okay. I'm not mad at you at all. I'm not mad that you're making money. I don't know why you have this in your head. You think I'm out to get you. These guys think I'm. I like when you do well.

I'm attached to you. So the better you do, the better it is for me actually. This is the thing about friendship, Rick, is I'm not talking about you about this. I know. Just trying to vent to you. You did just say you though before that. I know.

And it was a joke. Like you said, it's a podcast. Okay. All right, I gotta go. No, no, no, no, no, no was a joke. Like you said, it's a podcast. Okay. All right, I gotta go. Bye. No, no, no, no, no, no. We're done. [♪ MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, FADES OUT, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES OUT, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES OUT, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES IN, MUSIC PLAYING FADES I am a co-founder of Governor's Ball. Ladies and gentlemen, we have Tom Russell on the show. Co-founder. This isn't no ordinary fucking jam band festival.

This is the real deal Holyfield, and we got Tom Russell, baby. How you doing, bud? I am hanging in there. How are you guys? I'm good. What's... Getting there? What is the... What's the dynamic like being a talent buyer in 2025? Well, I gotta... I gotta let you guys know I'm not a talent buyer.

Oh, well, running a festival. The festival space is really interesting right now. Feels like there's just so many of them, right? It used to be just Bonnaroo and, God, what was that one called? Up where Electric Forest is now. Rothbury? Rothbury. Yeah. That was it. just Bonnaroo and, God, what was that one called? Up where Electric Forest is now. Rothberry? Rothberry.

Yeah. That was it. Maybe Gathering of the Vibes. Yeah. Then Lollapalooza and then Austin City Limits. So you had this rapid growth and nowadays I feel like every primary market, secondary market, and tertiary market has a festival.

Right. A crowd a crowded space. So how do you know what bands to pick for a bigger festival like then? How big are these radius clauses? The radius clauses vary by show and market. My issue with New York City is that it's every band's best market. I know. Yeah, right. Every artist wants to play here.

So that means a couple things for me. It means that their talent fee is going to be rather high, right? Because they're giving up that New York City play. And, you know, we're competing with The Garden and Barclay Center and Brooklyn Paramount, Brooklyn Steel, all these amazing venues. And, you know, a lot of bands want their own look in a market like New York. So for us at Gump Wall it's just putting together the best package that we can to stand out because we're competing with the city of New York. Yeah so what's your pitch on them not taking a Barclays Center show

and taking the Governor's Ball offer? So it depends on the act right? You pitch acts in different ways, but if you're a headliner, I'd make the argument that you are gonna be playing in front of 40 plus thousand people, right? That's more people than the garden, Barclay Center. You're gonna be playing in front of an audience that includes your fans, but also others.

So it's a great opportunity to gain new fans. And it's also a chance to play in a venue that very few people have played. A couple years ago we moved to Flushing Meadows Corona Park which is one of the nicest parks in the city. It's in Queens and you know it goes back to the you know early to mid 1900s and it it's just an incredible, incredible venue. They had two world's fairs there. It's where that massive Unisphere is. You're familiar with that.

So it's just a really, really vibey unique venue. And there's really a magic about it. And I think with any venue, whether it's in New York city or Denver or Topeka, right? There's a vibe in a room or a vibe in a park. And this park is rather vibey. When did this thing start blowing up? I know this was like a, you know, it's after,

how many years did it take for this thing to really become a thing in New York? So we started in 2011 and I, before that, I worked at a company called Superfly. Oh yeah. We started Bonnaroo. Right. And you know, so I had always wanted to kind of have my own festival in my hometown.

And in about 2010, we started to see this cultural shift toward festivals where, you know, bands wanted to play them more and fans wanted to experience festivals. And, you know, more and more of them were popping up and doing well. We were just coming out of the financial crisis and it seemed like a good time to try it out. So I called up two buddies of mine and they were at similar places at their jobs and we all left our jobs and made this our primary focus

and launched in 2011, but it was super small. It was an 18,000 person event. Our headliners were Empire of the sun, pretty lights, girl talk. Uh, it was pretty niche. I call it like party music. I like fronic, but you know, it's got a funky beat to it. It's fun. And, uh, it was just different. So it was a one day event and it was a little bit of a proof of concept.

And it worked. You know, we, we made a little bit of money enough to come back in year two. And then in year two, we lost a little bit of money and we were pretty much even. And we decided let's throw all of our chips in the middle and see if this thing works because we always wanted to be that major music festival, like a Lala or an ACL or a Bonerud. So we quadrupled our talent budget more than that. We moved venues to a bigger venue

and we went for some huge acts. So we ended up booking Kings of Leon, Kanye West, Guns N' Roses, The X-X, Kendrick Lamar. Like everything just kind of fell into place. And I think partially that was because it was a unique offer for the artists, but there was no dynamic ticket pressing at that time. Right, right.

Some of these artists were able to get paid more to play the festival than they would play in the garden or at the Barclays Center. Nowadays, not like that. Yeah, do you think dynamic ticketing has fucked the festival scene? It has made it harder to get some talent, right? It used to be if bands really wanted to make money,

they play a festival. Right. And, you know, nowadays you could play the garden and if you dynamically priced your tickets, you can make more. Or you can play a stadium and you can make a lot more. So it's made it trickier to book artists. I think what's unique to festivals is that festivals

don't dynamically price their tickets. Right, right. You can't. That ticket price is on their website. Yeah. For everybody to see, it's not changing. Yeah. So do you think like these, not these ticket masters,

but these companies that are like monopolizing with the promoters and with, do you think like these, not these ticket masters, but these companies that are like monopolizing with the promoters and with, do you think it's fucking up the growth of like developing bands? It's an interesting question. And I'm not a talent buyer, so I'm not sure whether I'm best suited to answer this, but I will say this.

When it comes to dynamic pricing, everybody's in the mix on it. Everybody knows what's happening. Yeah, everyone's in their fucking pennies, too. Right. The manager, the artist, the promoter, the venue, like everybody's getting a piece and everybody's signing off on it. So if it is making it harder, it's a collective decision to do what's best for them and then what it does to the macro environment, I couldn't

tell you. But I think as these concert tickets get more and more expensive, I think festivals provide real value. Right. You see a shitload of bands for not that much money and there's multiple payment plan options to spread out that cost and different ways to experience it. I think it gives a really great bang for your buck. Do you think COVID fucked the sleeping at the festival type of festival?

Yeah. I think that more festivals popping up killed that. Yeah. Oh, yeah, true. Supplying demand. I think it used to be like the big camping festivals were the only major ones out there, right? I mentioned Bonnaroo earlier and Rothbury. Like like there weren't that many festivals around at that time And if you wanted to see a sick jam band festival, those are your options Yeah, nowadays is musical music tastes have evolved a lot

There's a festival in every market So it's a heck of a lot cheaper to go see a show a festival in New York City than it is to You know get in a car rent a car drive down to Bonnaroo or a camping festival and you know camp out for four nights Just easier and it's more comfortable. Yeah, it's more comfortable to go hang out Exactly much different experience though right not to knock Bonnaroo because that's you know, those are my roots right there I think that festivals, you know one of the best of all time It's just it's just so different and it's a different financial expenditure, emotional expenditure, and, uh, just different vibe. Is there beef between Bonnaroo and Governor's Ball?

There's like a two pop biggie beef. There's like, were they pissed that you started your own festival? Like, is there's, give us some dirt with owner to owner. So I was at Superfly from 2006 to 2010. I went to school at Tulane in New Orleans. And that's where my musical taste really expanded. And prior to my freshman year, I went to the first Bonnaroo, had the best time of my life. And I said, I got gotta do this for my profession.

I got an intern at this company. Where are they based? And it turned out that Superfly was based in New Orleans, where I was about to go to school. So I begged them for an internship and eventually got one, worked there for a good bit of time, and learned the tricks of the trade when it comes to festivals. And it got to the point where I wanted to start my own thing.

So I went to my boss and I said, I want to start my own thing. And he goes, it's to festivals. And it got to the point where I wanted to start my own thing. So I went to my boss and I said, I want to start my own thing. And he goes, it's really risky. And then I said to him, can you guarantee me that I'll make $100,000 by the time I'm 30? Oh yeah, you're young when you're with them. I was 26. Yeah, I was in my younger 20s.

And he said, I think I can get you there, but I can't put it in writing. Wow. So I said, you know what? If you're not going to do that, then I'm going to go, I'm going to try this thing out, because I knew that if it failed, like I could maybe get a job back at Superfly or I could figure it out. And you're young. And I was pretty young.

So, you know, I left and I tried it out, but those guys were all super supportive. And I learned everything I know in this industry from my Superfly days. So working on Honouru and outside lands and at that time the industry was so different. You know, everybody was independent and it was real, it was a real family. And you know, there was no hiding of info. Everybody was in it together. Everybody was emotionally attached and you know, I left, they were always very supportive and I'm still such close friends with the Superfly guys

who've moved on from Bonnaroo. And I'm super close with the folks who currently run Bonnaroo. I still go every year. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, Richard Slovin's one of my old managers. Cool. And so it's like learning about,

I'm learning about the dynamics between, because my question is, when you're taking that step to make it a bigger festival and you're tripling your budget, how are you getting funding for this? Who's saying yes to this? Like what the fuck? You're like, I got this big idea,

I wanna get these bigger bands. Who's saying yes to this? It's the riskiest industry in the world. It's the riskiest fucking thing on the planet. Who's saying yes to this? All right, so when we started GovBall, we put together a 12-page business plan. Yeah. Talked about the rise of music festivals.

Talked about how we were, you know, in the US, we're all just following what they do in Europe, right? We're always a few years behind them. Right. And at that time, there were so many festivals doing well in Europe. So you know, we crafted this business plan that showed that, you know, festivals were a growing segment. These city festivals specifically were doing great,

but New York City didn't have one. We did an analysis of the bands that we wanted to get and their ticket sales history in the market. You know, a pretty well-thought-out business plan showed it to basically friends and family, and we raised $ raised 700 grand for year one. Wow. And we used that money to launch the festival. Now that money would not have covered us if shit really hit the fan. So we raised as much as we

could, we booked the bands we went on sale and hoped for the best and we were really really lucky. Right. On year two, when we lost some money, we had to get a bridge loan, and that carried us through to year three when we went on sale. And for year three, when we had that big lineup, we were really, all of our asses were on the line. Because if it didn't go well, we were already in debt.

Right. And we'd have to pull the show down, negotiate with these agents for a kill fee, and just eggs on our faces. But it worked out, we sold a lot of tickets, and since then it's kind of been, not smooth sailing by any means, but we've been growing and doing well.

People don't realize how fucking expensive it is to start, have a festival, to make a festival. People think the promote, the owners are just making a shit ton of money. Why don't you break it down, how expensive it really is to put on a festival. This year's GovBall will cost 25 to 26 million dollars as the total expense. Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah. So what's your most expensive stuff outside of talent? Typically, you're going to see like half talent, half production and operations. And then it really falls off. And then you get to marketing, insurance, stuff like that. But site production and then talent really comprise the bulk of the expenses.

You gotta be a real crazy person to fucking have the balls to do this, Tom. Maybe we should put you in charge of the federal government budget. Yeah, maybe we should put you, yeah, you should be our guy. Sounds like you know what you're doing. Look, I don't know if you want somebody

that's gonna take a crazy risk, like literally putting your ass on the line. Yeah, but... Well, it's like... Yeah. What happens? Yeah. Whoops.

But you know, I think everybody who... You know, everybody, you got to take a swing. Yeah. You got to try it. You know, my coming from the Bonnaroo days, you know, and especially in the early days, it was such... You know, there's real magic at these festivals. Yeah.

Especially in Bonnaroo. And I think I was just bit by that bug and I was just so driven to bring my hometown of New York city, a music festival, because there's no reason why New York city shouldn't have its own festival. I agree. Yeah. Eight million people, right? But I didn't really know at that time that like, you know, it's such an

expensive city and like you're competing against every amazing venue in the city Because there's so much good programming at all times. Yeah, and that's why in 2013 We just put together a lineup that was so big that people just couldn't say no to it. Right? That's it. Yeah, it's insane It's like feel like Coachella to before Coachella. What was California's festival? I feel like Coachella too. Before Coachella, what was California's festival? Didn't have much. So why is it, why are people intimidated to put these festivals in these 20 million people cities?

Markets. Well, I think most bigger markets have festivals nowadays and it's so expensive that if you're, if you're like a day-to-day promoter, right, booking venues from 500 people to let's just say 20,000, the risk is just not nearly as high as a festival. You could launch a festival and have crap ticket sales and lose millions of dollars and that would just sink your entire year or your company. So I think that keeps a lot of the folks that are in the territory

business or day-to-day booking business out of festivals because it's such a scary thing. And it also takes talent out of their rooms. So they want to keep the good talent going to their rooms. But it's such a big risk and it just takes a certain type of person. And nowadays, the cashflow has really changed in terms of the needs for cashflow. When we started, we raised 700 grand, we had to pay the artist 25% upon confirming. Oh my God.

Damn. Nowadays, if you're an independent, especially if nobody knows you, you have to pay 100% upon confirming. Wow. Damn. Nowadays, if you're an independent, especially if nobody knows you, you have to pay 100% upon confirming. Wow. So that can immediately prevent you from moving forward right then and there. We just so happen to be at an earlier time

in the US festival evolution before festivals started canceling and promoters started keeping people's money or agents didn't get paid, right? Yeah, now it's like I normally see in my deals when it's a really well-known festival, it's either half or just the agent's fee. Is that still the same? Yeah. Yeah. My question is, when you're a jam head, right? I see the fish.

I have. Yep. I have. What do you think the state of that industry is in 2005? Jam scene? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of dying, right?

Yeah, is there still one? It's kind of fragmented a bit, right? You know, Phish is still doing big numbers. Goose is doing big numbers, you know, you have bands that used to do much bigger numbers like Moe and String Cheese just doing, you know, different numbers. But I think there's still that diehard fan base out there, right? You see like Wives for Panic or String Cheese going to markets and doing three night runs and selling out immediately at a high ticket price. I think, you know, that it'll be more regional touring.

Um, and there was like 5,000 cap rooms, three to 5,000 cap rooms, as opposed to the, you know, the gardens or the arenas. Do you blame that on fatigue, them playing in every market, playing every festival. Do you think fatigue is part of that downside? I don't know if it's fatigue. I think part of it is just musical taste and evolution and how people consume music. And it's just so, there's just so much out there nowadays.

Right. There's so much to choose from in terms of music. And also, I've seen Fish a few times seen widespread panic few times our boys after the 105th show or whatever it is you're like, you know I got two kids and I want to watch a TV show on a Friday night Maybe in sleep as opposed to go see my 120th show I'm not going to Indiana again to go see fucking fish brother I'm not going to Indiana again to go see fucking fish brother

You're how good the grilled cheese yeah, tell me a little bit of your take of why the EDM scene blew up You know, I think similar to jam scene. It's a it's a real family community oriented fanbase and You know people rally around that and I think you know similarly I don't know I don't know that every any show is the same right I think the beauty of jam bands is that every show is different you never really know what you're going to get and I think with electronic music it's pretty similar and there's a magic and a specialness to to those sorts of environments you can go see an indie rock band, they put on an amazing show, but it's the same show every night.

Right, same cadence, same energy bills, same releases, all of that. With jam and electronic, you just never know what you're gonna get. You get the good, the bad, the ugly, or the epic that you'll never ever forget. And I think that's what's led to the staying power of those genres. With that being said, why are there not as power of those genres.

With that being said, why are there not as many of those type of bands on Governor's Ball? So we aren't as big of a festival as we need to be to feature more genres. Yeah. So when we started GovBall, we had this kind of like indie electronic pop rock rap mix, what I used to call party music, right?

Funky beat, it's upbeat, it's fun, stuff you want to hear at a party. And then we expanded it in 2013 to feature hip hop and indie rock and folk and electronic and all these genres. We wanted to be that eclectic multi-genre festival that Bonnaroo, Lala, ACL, Glastonbury, all these other festivals were. And we did great. But as time went on, we started to see less demand for our tickets. And we looked at the lineup and we said, you know what, maybe we need to take a little bit of a different direction. Maybe for the EDM fan, you can't just have one or two bands a day.

Maybe you need to have four or five or six bands a day. But we only have four stages, right? So we don't have enough stages and space to feature enough of every genre. And that's why, you know, we went through like a little bit of a hip-hop period where we were kind of honing in on hip-hop. Now I think we're honing in a little bit more on kind of pop, rock. And you know, you look at Lala, they have what, eight, 10 stages, 110,000 people a day. They have enough programming slots to feature everything and to have enough to sell a ticket to those dedicated genre fans.

But for me, I don't have as many slots, so I got to kind of really hone in on Elaine, if you will. And that's been beneficial. We've seen the results of that positively. Kind of like ACL, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But ACL is much bigger, and they do have more stages, but I think Texas is just a unique animal. And they have that ACL brand was alive well before the festival. Right. Had a big fan base of folks who just appreciated songwriting and folk and Americana. They have it all, but I think Lala or Bonnaroo, you're just going to see every single genre

under the sun. Not all Jewish bands in Texas. I can say it, I'm Jewish, whatever. My question, you know, last year you had one of my best friends who I toured with a lot, Little Stranger on the tour, on Governor's Ball, and they said how unique the experience is. When, as you're curating for years on,

I'm wondering, was there any year that you just totally lost your ass? With GovBall, no. We've been lucky in that we only had that loss in year two, and it was a small one, and we've been okay since then. I think part of that is because of the market and just the brand power. We've been able to make up any shortcomings in ticket sales with partner activations and sponsors and kind of creatively.

But I have put on other shows that have bombed. Well, give me, give me them, give me them. Yeah, we want some stories. We want some stories of shitty situations. We love failure on this podcast. All right, so in 2016, 2015, we were still independent. The industry was consolidating a lot, right? Bonnaroo was sold off.

C3 sold to Live Nation. Live Nation and AEG were kind of getting into a, you know, just stepping up the competition. And AEG was trying to come to New York to do a festival. And they had a lobbyist that was connected to the mayor and were able to get Flushing Meadows Corona Park, which is the venue that we're in now. They came to us and said, look, we're close with the mayor.

We have this venue. We would like to work together to put this festival on together. So, you know, we want to do a deal with you. We said, okay, we're interested. So we talked to them for a while, wasn't, didn't work out, wasn't a fit. But from that conversation, we started to get the sense that we really needed to muscle up to compete in this new landscape. Yeah. Right? The bands were getting paid more money, tickets were starting to be dynamically priced, you know, if you lost your ass, you're out of business and we needed a financial backstop and a

partner that could help us grow. So AEG reached out, didn't really, didn't make sense, so we started talking to Live Nation and to Madison Square Garden. And we talked to the kind of executive level folks at those companies and it was very clear who was more our speed. And those were the folks at Live Nation. Just pragmatic leadership, really smart. It was clear they were going to let us operate the business as we have been, and we can continue to do our thing and be as independent as possible, but be a part of a bigger team.

So we did a joint venture with them, and we had this financial backstop. So we said, fuck yeah, great, we have a bank, let's do more festivals. Here we go, Here we go. So AEG had launched this panorama festival in July of 2016, I want to say. And that was the one that they ended up not getting the park that they had. They had to do it on Randall's Island. But we had GovBall, which then was on Randall's Island in early June. You had Panorama in end of July. And we thought that maybe another festival could work

in New York City in the fall for two reasons. Number one, most of the time bands will play in, they'll play in the city in the spring and then come back in the fall, or they won't play in the city, they'll do Europe or they'll do the South and then they'll come play the city in the fall. So we knew there was gonna be a big crop of bands playing in the fall, or they won't play in the city, they'll do Europe or they'll do the South, and then they'll come play the city in the fall. So we knew there was gonna be a big crop of bands

playing in the fall, great bands to choose from. And there were no festivals in the fall in New York City. Doing one in New York could, a band could route from a New York festival in September all the way down to ACL in Austin, Texas, right? You could play music Midtown in between, go to Austin. So we thought we could get the bands. We know New York's a proven market. Govball works. It's getting competitive. Let's do it. So we put together this festival called The Meadows. And it came out in

year one with Kanye West, Chance the Rapper, The Weeknd, this great lineup, this really fantastic lineup. Sales were okay. Sales were okay. What's okay to you? The Kanye and Chance the Rapper day was great. That show sold out $40,000. Cool. The Weeknd day was slower. It was in the low 20s. And about two weeks before the show, we get a call that The Weeknd's pulling off

because he's playing, he's playing SNL that night. That's right there, you can't do both. Exactly, well apparently you can't do both because once you do the dress rehearsal, you can't leave the building. Oh wow, probably for like a week. And like, don't you have to work all week? can't leave the building. Oh, wow. This is live taping. And like, don't you have to work all week? Isn't like they're there all week to kind of like prepare for that?

Look, we asked all those questions. The vibe that we got was like, listen, the weekend's doing SNL. He's not playing your festival anymore. Wow. We said, shit. And then we went to the agent and said, who can we book? They said, J. Cole. So we booked J. Cole.

I guess The Weeknd found out about this on social media, Came back to us and said he wanted to be back on and play Okay. Oh my god. Now you're spending money on J Cole and the weekend, right? Exactly No, well, we figured out how to do it right? We were like we were gonna be a winner for the fans, right? We booked Amazing amazing hip-hop artists and J Cole. We had the weekend right and live nation bank And we had the financial Nation Bank. And we had the financial ability to do that. Yeah. So we did it. And then a few days later, the weekend said, eh, it's too much. Not going to do it. Oh my God. What the fuck? So he backed out and we had to kind of manage that situation, which was not easy. But it ended up being- How did you approach that?

At the end of the day, we are in the artist business. Yeah. Right? We're going to do whatever the artist wants to do. Whether we like it or not, we have no choice, because we want to keep working with artists that are putting on great concerts and putting out great music. If they have to bail on a show because We have no choice because we want to keep working with artists that are putting on great concerts and putting out great music.

And if they have to bail on a show because of a family issue, a personal issue, emotional issue or a conflict, like it stings, we're going to get angry, we're going to get upset about it, but like it's what the artist wants to do. We want to keep working with the artist and that's agent's artist. So you just roll with the punches. There's this like a totem pole, right? The artists are on the top. Right. Then you have the punches. Yeah. There's this, this like a totem pole, right? The artists were on the top. Right.

Then you have the managers below that. Then below that you have the agents and then at the very bottom, you got the promoter. Yeah. That's what. That's my question to you. Like after getting fucking your eyes gouged out by all these fucking people, how do you still love the music industry? Yeah.

Um, I'm a little bit jaded. Yeah. I will say, but what makes me love the music industry is when you go to a festival or a show and you just, the fucking band is killing it and everybody is feeling it and you're like, this is why I do what I do. Yeah. Right. Or you, you listen to a new record, right? Everybody is fucking feeling it. And you're like, this is why I do what I do. Yeah. Right?

Or you listen to a new record, right? And it's just really hitting, and it's just giving you those chills. And you're like, fuck, this is so amazing. That's what keeps my heart and soul in it through all the bullshit. Yeah. Well, I'm going to fucking clap to that, Tom.

Let's go, baby. It's the music itself. But wait, we didn't even get to the part where I lost my shirt. Well, I can't wait. Let's go, baby. It's the music itself. But wait, we didn't even get to the part where I lost my shirt. Well, I can't wait. Oh, OK. Let's go. All right.

So we figure out Meadows year one. Well, actually not really, because when Kanye played, so the weekend was supposed to be on Saturday. He bails for SNL. J. Cole fills in, has a great set. Sunday was the sold out day. Chance the Rapper on his rise, followed by Kanye West at his peak. Right? Certainly not the current Kanye West.

I don't think he's at his peak anymore, yeah. I don't know, maybe. He's on stage. He's on stage performing. We're about halfway through his set and he stops the show, runs off the stage because his wife had been bound and gagged in Paris during that robbery. Oh my god. This was the same week. Wow. Dude. Yeah. He's like, I gotta go. Family emergency. And he runs off the stage. So we have 40,000 people in this venue. Everybody's like, what the fuck is happening? Right. They're so excited because Kanye put on this amazing first half of the show. So I'm sprinting back to my trailer. I'm getting with my crisis PR team, my social media team.

I'm on the phone with managers, with everybody, trying to figure out what's happening. And, you know, as more time had elapsed, we started to realize, you know, that Kim Kardashian had been held at gunpoint, all of these things. Meanwhile, my social media team is saying, hey, Tom, everybody thinks that, you know, we canceled the show,

they want their money back. Like, what do we say to these people? What do we do? Yada yada. Because Kanye played 61% of his set time. So, 61%, does that mean he still gets paid? He got paid. Fuck. So what's the percentage before you can't pay him? I'd like to say 50%. Yeah.

Okay, cool. Not that that's in contract or anything, but that just, you know. That seems reasonable. Fair ish. Fair ish. So, you know, I'm trying to figure out what to do. The fans, because fans are pissed,

they want their money back, they think it's our fault, or they think it's just Kanye being Kanye, so we should give them their money back. Right. But as the news starts to become more well-known, we... Everybody starts to be a little bit understanding that it wasn't our fault. Meadows Festival, this is a terrible situation that happened, and, you know, it's okay. So, you know, Kanye goes to Paris, we load out the site, we have this really unique year one,

and we start to talk to agents and managers about bands that are available for the next year. So we get more and more feedback from the agents and managers, and we're like, fuck, next year's crop of artists in September is sick. You have the gorillas that are available, you have the chili peppers that are available, you have NOS, you have Lizzo, you know, you have this, you have Jay-Z, hometown Jay-Z. Oh my god. Massive. So like, fuck yeah, right? This is one good way to come back from a hockey year. So we booked this amazing lineup. To this day, I think one of the best lineups we've ever booked.

Put this thing on sale and it was a complete disaster. Oh, fuck. Disaster. How with that lineup? How? It seems impossible. I'm still asking. Oh, wow.

Okay. I still don't understand. There was no cause and effect that was apparent, huh? I mean, I could tell you maybe it was the venue because it was in the city-filled parking lot. Maybe crazy fans are older, they don't want to go to that venue. But like, I'm kind of of the belief

if the talent lineup is good enough, people will come. It's like the field of dreams, if you booked them, they will come. Yeah, I love that. So, you know, maybe it was the venue, maybe it was the bad Juju from year one in word of mouth. Maybe Gorillaz, Jay-Z, Red Chili pepper fans, maybe they want a proper bathroom, right? Maybe they don't want to be at a festival

That time that I started to realize that there was a shift in festivals where it started to get real young Oh, yeah It used to be like older 20s to mid 30s or mid 20s to like older 30s and then around 2017 it started to get real young. When kids started to realize that Coachella was the fucking coolest thing on the planet, but they couldn't convince their parents to fly them to Indio, California.

I'll just go to my local festival here in New York City. And that's when GovBall started to see this influx of super young people. And we started to see it in our survey results that like people were pissed that these young kids were coming and getting super drunk. They were just acting a fool and negatively impacting, music lovers experience at the festivals.

I think that maybe with the Meadows, maybe those older fans were like, eh, Jay-Z will play New York again. Chili Peppers are around every couple of years. I'll wait to see them at the Garden or the Barclays Center as opposed to go to a festival where maybe a kid might throw up on my sneaker. Oh yeah. Yeah, right, and it's 95 degrees.

That actually makes sense. So when you saw that, you're like, shit, we gotta book younger bands. Well, when I saw the ticket sales in day one, I was like, fuck, how the fuck are we gonna get out of this one? Right. And you know, we talked with you know the team and we just we played the show try to cut expenses as much as possible and you know just took that one on the chin what did live nation say when they're like they

probably were like this is confusing the house is not working yeah everybody everybody was confused but you know what you You take the loss and you move on. Right, take the L. Take the L and you keep going. Kind of like the New York Knicks sometimes. Yeah, the Mets. Take the L. They're speaking my language because I'm a Knicks fan.

Yeah, I'm back. I've been playing a lot of L's my entire life. Yeah. Dude, I'm a Laker fan. We're getting our asses stomped right now. I like all Cleveland teams, so I think I win this. Yeah, it's true, that's true. I think this year you'll definitely win this.

So my question is too, when you book these bigger bands, how many of these agents saying, if you want this guy, you're gonna need to take three of our smaller lineups too? Happens a lot. Yeah. Oh, okay. Is it mostly part of the deals? I think most of it is, if you're dealing with an agent for a headliner or a sub-headliner, they're working with an incredible

artist that you want on your bill, right? That agent certainly has, is certainly smart, has his finger on the pulse of artists in general. So when they're saying, I have these younger bands that you should put on your show, maybe that could be the next headliner years down the road. So there's a level of trust that you have to a degree. We've had bands that have played first up on the main stage

at noon that are now selling out two nights at the garden. Right. And that started, the reason why they got that slot at 12 noon was because there was an agent saying, hey, can you please book my younger band since you're also booking the penultimate band. Right, totally.

And we also listen to all the music, right? Any submissions that come in, we're on Spotify, we're listening to it, we're going to see them when they're in town next, and we're a part of that curation. But you know, we're all friends and music lovers at the end of the day, so. Which agent is the hardest to deal with? Well, again, I'm not a talent buyer, so I thankfully cannot answer that question. So who which agent is the hardest to deal with?

Well again, I'm not a talent buyer so I thankfully cannot answer that question which managers Yeah, which manager with which major is easiest to deal with might be these guys I just deal with New York City and the production and site. Okay Okay, then that's I will say this all of the agents and managers that are super tough You know like Marsha Vlasic, she is a tough agent, right? Incredibly intimidating, but I love her to death and she's so smart and she's dedicated to protecting her artists. Is she a little crazy?

Sure, but any executive or any high-power person is going to be a fucking little bit crazy, I'm convinced. What's your take on a New York agent named John Bon Jovi? We've booked some of his bands, only good things. I think he's got one on there this year. He's playing good. Do you have Krugman on it? I thought you did Royal Lotus. We don't have Krugman, but I love them to death.

Oh, Royal Lotus? You have Royal Lotus? We do have Royal Lotus, yeah. That's a long band, but I love them to death. So one day. Oh, Royal Lotus, you have Royal Lotus? We do have Royal Lotus, yeah. That's a great band, man. I love Royal Lotus. I saw them when they played at, I guess Racket is what it's called now. But I've been up on them for a minute. They're a great band.

Great. Man, Tom, this has been so awesome to talk to you. I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot. I want to know, I got a couple more questions. How hard is it to deal with the fucking city? That's what I was wondering too. It's really fucking hard guys. Yeah, I fucking bet dude. Taxes are really hard. I will say There are three people in the mayor's office who I would work with often who resigned because they were indicted. Oh my god

Holy shit, dude, right? Yeah you have Oh my god. Holy shit. Yeah, dude. Right? Yeah. You have turnover all the time in positions, and you have new mayoral administrations. There's a lot of politics between the agencies, between the parks department and the mayor's office and the fire department and the police department, and things just move really, really slowly. Yeah. Right. and things just move really, really slowly. It's really unfortunate because for Govball,

we risk $25 million a year. We're pumping $100 million in economic activity into the economy annually. And I gotta fight tooth and nail just to get my dates for the following year. What? And it's such a success for the city. And it's been going for over 10 years. You? And it's such a success for the city. And it's been going for over 10 years, so it's like.

You know, it's like a supply and demand thing. Everybody wants to be in New York, so the city kind of thinks that it's okay to act this way. I really wish that they took a more holistic view, for economic reasons, but also just cultural reasons. We bring musicians and artists and fans from all over the world to New York City to spend money, enjoy the city, live that experience.

And it should be easy. It should be a true partnership. And I do think it is a partnership. It's just, I wish it was easier. I wish after 15 years, it was just a little bit easier. You would think you'd have to move it. You know what, give them my number, Tom. I'll fight for you.

I have no skin in the game. I'm rooting for you, Tom. I'll fucking yell at these guys. Put them on the podcast. I appreciate that. I need all the help I can get sometimes. Let's get Mayor Eric Adams on here. People don't realize how important music festivals are.

I mean, I grew up watching music festivals. Same. And that grew my childhood. Like, people don't realize how important these big festivals, like Vans Warped Tour was my festival. I mean, me too, me too. I was a pop punk kid. I worked at drive-through records and I was, you know what?

You worked at drive-through? Yeah, I worked at drive-through with Richard Reigns. And I was booking Hello Goodbye and I did some something corporate shows, and I did that whole thing. And I worked for Capital for Karius did for a bit before I was a musician as well. I used to hand out flyers for Epitaph and Fueled by Ramen.

Dude, I worked for Fueled by Ramen. I worked, I did a gym class, I was marketing for Gym Class Heroes and Paramore. Nice. Oh, you're a pop punk kid? Yeah, so I grew up in the city going to this venue called Coney Island High which is on St. Mark's Place. That's where like, and the wetlands so you know, Rains of Bid, Austin's, Less Than Jake, No Effects, like that was my, I

guess like third wave ska and like 90s punk, that was my jam. Put on Shapiro was booking ska at the wetlands? Oh yeah yeah Yeah, that's my every like once a once a month on Sundays ska wars. Yep, dude That's my that's my like one of my heroes as a promoter Like he's I think he how he develops bands and how he cares I could tell you care too. So He's a great guy. Yeah Tom thanks so much for your time, man. I've learned a lot about bigger festivals. Don't let those fucking city guys give you any shit, okay?

I'll talk to them. I'll talk to them for you, Tom. I have record Adam's phone number. Yeah, that's good. My last question, when it's all said and done, you know, you've been doing this a long time and I hope you keep doing it because it's important for the sake of music. Actually, I have two questions, sorry. If your son or daughter want to get into this music industry, what advice would you give them at 26 years old when

you were first starting? So I think what I would tell them is I'd tell them something before they were 26. I'd tell them something going into college. At first I'd say go to a college in a city where you could get opportunities outside of college. And when you're in college, get an internship, get many internships so that you can see what it's like in various companies, especially companies that are in a field that you're really interested in.

And work your fucking ass off. Right. In that internship. Prove yourself. Right? Be the first one in and the last one to leave. Take everybody they are out to lunch because ultimately they're probably gonna pay because you know you're a broke college student and if they work. Pick their brain, ask questions, develop these relationships so that when it comes time for your internship to end they say well fuck that kid made our team better Let's move him around or her around for the next semester or you know, let's hire them eventually

So it's really just about busting your ass and putting the work first and foremost When you know, you're really young and you can yeah And then you know if you're not sure what you want to do find the segment that you want to do and then get a shitload of different internships across that that field and see what see what you're good at. And once you lose your ass once get the fuck out of there right? I mean you take the L and you move on. Yeah. You read it in every business book under the sun right? You got it you can't be afraid to fail and everybody fails and you move on. Yeah. Yeah. You read it in every business book under the sun, right? You got it. You can't be afraid to fail and everybody fails.

And you know, you just fucking keep doing it. It's okay to get punched in the mouth. You just got to keep fighting. That's right. Yeah. Tom, thanks so much for being on the show. Good luck with Governor's ball this year and keep fighting the good fight, bro.

We're rooting for you. Thank you guys. Thanks for having me. Have a good one. Have a good day. Later. You've just tuned into the World Saving Podcast with Andy Frasco. Produced by Andy Frasco, Joe Angelhowe, and Chris Lorenz. Please help us save the world by subscribing and rating the show on volume.com, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you're listening so we can spread the word and save the

world.