Angry Planet - A Deadly Warrior’s Peaceful Homecoming

Episode Date: November 13, 2017

War is hell and the people who fight often have a hard time coming home. Kevin Lacz didn’t. Lacz is a former U.S. Navy SEAL who served alongside Chris Kyle in the battle of Ramadi. He survived, came home, and thrived. He’s written books, spoken to crowds, and even played himself in Clint Eastwood’s American Sniper.This week on War College, Lacz tells us what it’s like to go to war, what it’s like to want to kill people, and how to turn off the warrior when you come home.You can listen to War College on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. You can reach us on our new Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/warcollegepodcast/; and on Twitter: @War_College.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast? Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. My goal was to join the military to go downrange and shoot terrorists. I would say point blank, and I got to fulfill that. You're listening to War College, a weekly podcast that brings you the stories from behind the front lines. Here are your hosts, Matthew Galt.

and Jason Fields. Hello and welcome to War College. I'm Matthew Galt. And I'm Jason Fields. Kevin Lace is a former Navy SEAL who served in the Battle of Vermont alongside Chris Kyle. An American sniper, the film based on Kyle's life, Lace consulted on set and got to play himself in the movie. He's also an author in his own right, the author of the book The Last Punisher. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you guys. Great to be here. Matt, Jason. Appreciate it. So we're going to start talking off with some veterans issues with you. So during World War II, more than 14 million men served in the military out of a population of less than 200 million. You mentioned in a speech that you gave recently that the number is now serving as about 2 million out of 350 million. And you said there was a growing disconnect. Can you tell us what you see? Sure, yeah. You know, I'd mention that.

And, you know, I'm very aware of the World War II statistic. It was a, you know, everybody was all in on that war, you know, from rationing to men and women serving, you know, as a war that involved the entire society. And since then, you know, after we've obviously won, less of an emphasis has been put on military service because there hasn't been a conflict such as World War II where we've been, is actively engaged, or so it seems. Nowadays, I believe that threat is even bigger than it was in World War II, but we are relying on a very small percentage of the population to fight those wars, even more specifically, you know, special

operations to carry a large share of that burden. So as a result, you know, you have a very small, you know, Navy SEALs make up 0.0026 of the U.S. population, but they are been involved with some of the biggest, you know, operations that we've had in the last 15 years, some of the biggest battles. And therein lies the problem. You have a very select piece of the population that shares a very large burden in that war. And most individuals don't understand what we go and do down to range, they probably shouldn't know, but they don't understand the threat that we fight that actually affects every single citizen, not just 0.0026 of the population. So when people come back from that, that means that you really are kind of the odd man out.

That was one of the things that really struck me about that speech that you gave. After World War II, if you were looking for a job and you hadn't served, the question would be, what's wrong with you? Why didn't you serve? Right? And now it's almost like if you go in for a job interview, the person you're across the desk from is looking at you like you're a curiosity, right? I mean, almost like, so why did you serve?

Yeah, no, good point. Yeah. You know, I don't see it as the odd man now. For example, you know, I've been asked to consult on a lot of different things. I've had a lot of major news networks reach out in lieu of recent events for commentary because it brings a perspective that a lot of people, People fear terrorism. People fear violence. People fear the unknown. So they reference people that have been there and done that. So I don't feel where the odd man out, I just feel that we're a very select part of the population who knows what's going on. So where I stand to provide information, you know, and be an asset rather than the odd man out is to be actively engaged in, you know, school when I went back to the University of Connecticut. You know, I was a very small percentage of the population being a veteran. I was the only seal on campus. campus. I'm going to Wake Forest as a PA. I'm a former special operations medic, and there aren't

too many in the health care field predominantly in PA studies. So it doesn't matter what community I go to, you know, I bring a perspective. And so does every single other operator who's been there done that to a general population who remains largely uneducated as to what the real threats are in society. There are people commenting on, you know, the most recent event in Las Vegas, or it's the most recent terrorist attack. And they want to know from somebody who's been there, done that, what is to be expected, how do we prevent these threats? And how do we cope and how do we deal with that? You've been there. You tell me about it. So I feel like the right man in having had those experiences. Well, so when you're talking about Las Vegas, honestly, wasn't something that I was

going to bring up. But let me ask you for your perspective. What do you really think there is a way to prevent things like this? You know, that's a very, that's a philosophical question right there. It is. It is. ...violence. You know, there's, man, there's so many directions you can go with that. I think there's one thing you can't underestimate, and that's just pure human evil. And it rears its ugly head, whether it's the face of Islamic terrorism, whether it's, you know, a teenage shooter that goes into Newtown, Connecticut, and mows down a bunch of kindergartners and first graders, or it's somebody who snaps and shoots 58 people in Las Vegas, peaceably people who are enjoying concert.

I don't know if you prevent that. but I think you allow it to happen when society, and this is me getting on soapbox, I hate doing that, but I think as we lose our morals, we lose our values in our compass, we really become lost in the woods. And I really feel that in a society that's self-gratifying and everybody is looking for their own voice. It's usually the loudest voice that wins. And unfortunately, the voice of violence tends to be the one that garnishes the most attention. So I don't think we can prevent that. I think we can curb it, but it comes down to.

How do we look at ourselves? And unfortunately, we're just going in the wrong direction. Do you see the way that society treats returning veterans reflected in that moral change that you see? I think there's been a lot of good things that have come about, you know, veterans returning. I think veterans, you know, there's a lot of emphasis on engaging veterans and re-engaging veterans. And I think people understand the value of bringing veterans on board. But I still think there is, you know, there's always going to be people, like, you went downrange and you shot people.

Yeah, I was my job. Just kind of the same way. The trash man picks up the trash every single Wednesday in my house. But the issue lies in, I think there's an inner piece with that because it's an individual who meets violence head on. Somebody who has a very, you know, cultured perspective of good and evil, regardless of where you fall on the spectrum, but you know when you see a bad person and you know the type of person you are who are willing to stand up against that man or woman.

And I think when it comes to that moral compass, I think veterans have a good person. clear, very clear perspective of, yeah, I've been there, I've done that, and I've walked in those shoes, and I've seen evil, and I've returned, and I'm here to educate, I'm here to make you stronger, because what we know together makes us stronger. So I have a question, then, does it make a difference when you're talking about going into the field and actually, you know, how else do you put it? I mean, to actually go into combat. Does it make a difference that you, you were incredibly well-trained, right? I mean, you weren't just someone. who went through basic and then were deployed.

I mean, you had a lot of training to become a seal. There are many, many movies made about just how hard it is. So let me ask you, do you think there's a difference between someone who had your level of training being deployed with someone who just goes through basic training is a standard infantry person? Do you think that changes the relationship with violence? Yeah, that's a great question.

No, obviously there's a very stark difference. You look at a seal, the most basic seal that goes through training, you can just look at that man and say, that's a million dollars right there. Because, you know, there's no less than a million dollars spent on training, on selection, on preparing that individual for combat. Compared to a, you know, 11 Bravo in the army who just walks in and a weapon infantry riflemen, I don't really know the army as well as I do the Navy. But yeah, there is a difference. But I tell you the difference changes when you meet combat because you see extraordinary stories of heroism, such as to- Cote of Meyer, regular Marine riflemen who went in there and saved X amount of his buddies when he was told not to. You know, there's tales of the human spirit, the fighting American human spirit, where regardless of training, race, creed, and even gender, you know, people that have stepped up to the fight and were willing to do heroic things.

So, yeah, there is a difference when you look at it on paper as to, yes, this man has the training, he has all this stuff. And this man, you know, just went through basic training. But at the end of the day, when you put somebody in the midst of the strenuous life, and that is combat, where there is the element of life and death, it doesn't matter how you're trained. You know, there's an intrinsic element to you. Cross branches, across the different special operations communities and even regular conventional army. And I think it's pretty amazing to see, and only combat brings it out. All right. So we've got this kind of, in the culture, when we look at the returning soldiers, one of the troops that we see a lot of is the vet kind of returning damage.

the PTSD. In the forward to your book, Scott McEwen wrote, Kevin gives a new voice to a substantial group of veterans being largely ignored, those who have served, who survived, and who now thrive. And I want you to talk about why you think that group might be ignored and what we can do about it. You know, I don't know if that group is ignored. You know, there are a lot of veterans who return and are very successful in what they do. And, you know, they don't go out there and say, I need to be heard in the same way that, you know, other social issues, you know, demand a voice. And they're very successful. But I also hear quite a bit of the grumblings that, yeah, man, I wouldn't kill people and I'm fine.

I enjoyed what I did and that's that. That was my service. I enjoyed it. And I think there is an element of fear when you address a person like that. I think people are, it unnerves them in a very, you know, for the largely, you know, a peaceful culture that we have in society we have in America. the thought of going there and shooting people in the face that are terrorists scares most people. And I get that from people who say, they assume that as a seal, you're just a person that runs fast and swims fast and is really good to do in the obstacle course. And that couldn't be further from the truth.

It's a, you know, it's a person that you're trained to go and kill terrorists. So I think it's largely ignored because it's feared. But at the same time, it is easily employable in business in health care because it's an individual who has seen. the worst of the worst and has risen above that and is able to succeed when most people thrive and that is under duress or under stress. So it is largely ignored, but I think when it is tapped into, it becomes the pulse of whatever field you fall into, healthcare business, all the above. So when you come home, how did you switch off the warrior? What was the transition like and how do you do it properly? Great question. I don't think you ever switch off the warrior, man. I'm in business. I'm in

health care. I'm an entrepreneur and, you know, I'm just as hungry as I was as the first time I picked up a gun in Buds. There is no switch off. And I think you always have it. And that's where we try to tap into, you know, that 2% in the last Punisher was, you know, there's a 2% of the population who can go ahead and do that job regardless in transition, you know, to the next step. And I think there is a transition process. Don't get me wrong. A lot of people ask like, hey, was the hardest part of seal training? Was the hardest part of Buds? And I tell them it's leaving. It's leaving that community, leaving that group of individuals. where it's very like-minded.

You get to the point where you understand what somebody's thinking or about to do before they do it. And it's a camaraderie that it cannot be replaced. So transitioning away from that is difficult. But, you know, you tend to gravitate to areas that have that same kind of camaraderie. And that's where I'm at in business. That's where I'm at in health care. And you become an acid, kind of a force multiplier in whatever direction you go because of the

experiences you had in that population as a team guy or as a situation. soft operator. Do you think that's maybe why some of your fellow soldiers maybe don't have such an easy time coming back as they don't have a community to come back to? Great question. I don't know if they don't have a community to come back to. I think it's still hard regardless of where you go to turn it off. I mean, I just had a, you know, I was just talking to a buddy of mine and we were talking about how our extreme sport experiences, it's kind of dwindled down as our responsibilities have increased. And, you know, I think it's a matter. of understanding that, yes, you're probably not going to charge the door and, you know,

they're probably not going to be bad guys on the other side anymore. But there's still a culture around you that you have to engage. And for me, it's my family, it's my community. That's what I do. I think for veterans who struggle to find that, I think they need to not be afraid to reach out. You know, I get a lot of bets that we engage with our charity hunting for healing. We try to plug them back into those groups. And there's always a helping hand.

just like if you fall down a trip in combat, somebody's going to pick you up. And I think vets, you know, if they want to succeed, it's simply as reaching out and reengaging that community again. When someone comes down, comes back home, experiencing PTSD, what do you think the difference is between their experience and your experience? The same thing can happen to two different people, and they will have very different responses. That's always the case, whatever the heck happens. What do you see the difference between these two things?

I mean, I'm sure you know plenty of people who've experienced PTSD. Yeah, you know, that's a very interesting question. And, you know, being in health care, that's something that I talk quite a bit with, you know, other providers. And we do see veterans in our clinic. A lot of them are from the special operations community wars drag out. You know, you're having individuals who, you know, go ahead and have done 10, 11, 12 deployments. And that takes a toll on a human being. But I think it's important to talk about what is PTSD.

It's just like autism. It's a spectrum. It's not the violence and lash out. It's not the, you know, roid rages, those sort of things. It could be simply as feeling down or difficulty sleeping and not wake up with tears. It's just insomnia. People that have been, you know, hypervigilant, you know, in that, you know, sympathetic overdrive for so long that it's hard to switch it off. So what's the pre-existing factor for PTSD? I don't know. Is it stress in utero and fetal development? Is it, you know, a family history of, you know, mood disorders and mental health issues in the family? Is it really under duress? There's an issue with the actual brain and the amygdala and blood flow. I don't know. There's so many things going into. And I think that's what makes it a mystery in some ways. But are we ever going to figure it out? Hopefully we do. But what we can do is we can, we know one thing.

works and that's communication. And, you know, it doesn't matter what kind of type of genics you have, you know, each individual, each human communicates. So if you can elicit and you can draw those experiences and get down to what is interfering and hurting that individual, I think we can go ahead and maybe not solve those issues, but we can, you know, make, make the best out of a situation that has been, you know, really, you know, keeping us guessing for a while. So I had a friend who was in Iraq for a number of years. First as a Marine, then as a contractor. And when he came back, people would thank him for a service when they met him. And he would tell me afterwards that always made him uncomfortable and that he just wanted to be part of the group normally again.

And I'm wondering if you think civilians do a good enough job welcoming veterans back without alienating them at the same time. Yeah, you know, I'm always happy when people say thanks for your service. Because it takes them out of their comfort zone. And, you know, a lot of them, a lot of them really do appreciate the service that we've done. And that means a lot to me. And really, probably the most impactful moment that that happened was the time I returned from my 2008 deployment, I was with Lieutenant Guy Button Sack, who was my assistant officer in charge of my platoon. And we, we came back and we were tagging along with the Army unit. And we landed in Baltimore in Maryland. And I remember, you know, we're like, it's an Army, you know, company that's coming back.

when we were tagging in the back. And I remember getting off the airplane and walking in. And I saw World War II veterans. I saw Korean War veterans. I saw Vietnam veterans. There's a couple Gulf War guys there in families. And they were going absolutely crazy. And I remember walking by and there's these Vietnam vets and they were so overcome with emotion.

They were crying. And I remember telling Guy, I was like, this is amazing. You know, it's extremely powerful. And I really hope that we're now. never at the point where our service has been left, you know, meaning we did our duty and then our country goes a different direction. So to answer your point, I do believe a lot of Americans are appreciative of, of the service of a very small population. And I do think there's another part of the population who says it simply out of respect, just simply to say, thanks for your service

so they can get it out of the way. It's kind of like the crazies in the 1970s did so many terrible things of veterans that we're going to make amends and just say, thanks for your service, get out of the way. And that's a small percentage. I've seen it. I've seen that college campuses. That was the number one place in my career where I saw it. And it wasn't in grad schools and undergrad and just people just simply to get it out of the way. And I was, that made me a little mad. But back to the service, the hardest part for returning vets now. And I gather from my friends and people I engage with is we are back in that Vietnam era where the sacrifices that were made were turned off by a political move, you know, in the late 2010 era.

So the gains we made in Iraq were lost. So that puts us back into that cohort of Vietnam bets. And service is important because we know what it's like to gain ground and then lose it and walk away. So to those who reach out on limb, get out of their comfort zone and say, thank you for your service. I know they mean it. And I'm willing to tell them about that service because I don't want us to go back

to what we did when we did not appreciate our veterans in the 70s. All right. I'm going to stop you right there. We need to pause for a break from our sponsors. Listeners, you are on with Kevin Lace. This is War College, and we thank you for listening. We'll be right back back back after this. All right, listeners, thank you so much. You are back on with War College. We are talking to one of Chris Kyle's friends who served alongside him in the Battle of Vermont. Jason, I believe you had the next question.

You know, not everybody does feel comfortable talking about their experiences. They have certainly know of examples where people who served are worried that by telling what they actually saw, you're going to scare people off. And there's, I think, from the veterans I've met, there's a certain gallows humor, too, right? I mean, the things that people joke about after you've been through some nasty stuff, it's not necessarily, you know, what genteel people laugh about at home, right? So, but you feel comfortable talking about all this stuff. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, why not? I joined my, I joined the Navy after 9-11.

You know, I had a very close personal friend who lost his life in the trade centers. And to be frank, my goal was to join the military to go downrange and shoot terrorists. I would say a point blank. And I got to fulfill that. And in the same capacity that my grandfather, joined the Navy after Pearl Harbor, that so many other veterans joined after Pearl Harbor, you know, so many veterans joined after 9-11. Like, I was a population who felt this hurt me directly, and I'm going to go ahead and do the job. And I should never have to apologize for that. And it's a

necessary job to do. You know, Homeland Security is important. And, you know, the best way to go ahead and address that a threat is preemptive. And in that process, you have to do things that involve life and death. And, you know, for most people who live in a first world country that their problems are are very minuscule compared to those in combat, yes, some of the things that we've done will shock them. But I don't think that, well, I know from my perspective, I'm not going to be deterred from talking about it. You know, I think it's educational for people's perspective. But there is a you have to modulate how you describe that message. If you come out as a Neanderthal with a very monolithic, you know, approach to these stories, you're going to turn off a lot of people and you're

going to give the veteran community a bad name. In the same breath, when there is terror and there is threat on the homeland, those are the same people who go ahead and rely on a sheepdog. We've seen it in Las Vegas. When people were getting shot, people were turning cops who are running towards gunfire. You know, when there's terrorist threat, whether it's on a train in France, you have Americans willing to run up and meet evil. So it's important for you to tell your stories. It's also important for you to be respectful in a manner of how you tell those stories, because you can do a lot of, you know, unwinding of the esteem that veterans are held by telling that story in a poor light. Would you mind telling us one story from your experience that really stands out? You know,

talking about what happened in Ramadi. I mean, is there one aspect of that, you know, you feel be worth telling our listeners? Man, you know, I think it's, man, there's so many, there's so many stories that, you know, people, and this is what I got, you know, working on, working on the movie, you know, working with act. Everyone thinks that deployment's like a movie. Like, it's action, action, action, you know, they've seen the war movies and they expected to be, but it's, it's not, you know, there's so much downtime. There's so much hilarity that goes on that, you know, kind of shocks in the individual, like, I thought you'd be in combat. I find it funny, too, because I thought it was going to be like that. You know, I've watched Band and for others well before

I joined the Navy and I thought it was going to be like that. And our experiences were nothing compared to, you know, what those individuals felt, you know, storming the beaches of Omaha in Normandy. But some of my best experiences are with the people I worked with, you know, whether it was on target, you know, some of the funny stuff you see on target or it was messing around the team area. You know, the new guys show up from right out of SEAL qualification training. And the first thing they do is meet up and, you know, they get taped up and their eyebower bicked off and their head shaved.

You know, and the fun incurs. You know, when it comes to funny stories, when it comes to worthy stories, it's the ones that really hit close to home that stand with you the most. And the first time I really saw, you know, and I illustrated in the book, I was at Chow and enjoying a breakfast or whatever we were eating. And some guy came in screaming for litter bearers. and we all drop our plates and run. And Johnny and I are both medics and we're 18 Delta medics.

And I remember just like running because it was a mass casualty and they needed, you know, people to carry stretchers, which meant there was a lot of casualties. And I remember, you know, that's standing out is the first time that I was really brought into that emotional connect with a casualty. And we got lined up in our beds. And I, you know, didn't get a casualty. But I remember gravitating over and working on an individual. And it was a kid who was, you know, I say kid.

I was 24 at the time. And he was probably about my younger brother's age. And I remember just like, look at him as a Marine, you know, right high and tight, you know, I'd been hitting by a triple stack IED. And I remember that sitting with me and, you know, not being, I was obviously sad for that individual, but I was enraged that, you know, an individual would go ahead and do that to a fellow service member.

And what it did was it recatalized me as an operator as this job is important. My job is to go ahead and, you know, lay waste to individuals that would do this to a fellow Marine, a fellow sailor, a fellow soldier. And it made me work harder of what I did. And every time I saw, you know, what would be an element where, an incident would, where, you know, you would, most people would get beaten down, it fueled me to work harder. And I think a lot of people I worked with and a lot of, you know, soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines that saw that did that. And that's inspiring. You know, that is, that is people taking the initiative, seeing,

the atrocities, but are standing up, you know, work harder, be stronger, and be faster than the enemy, because our job depended on it. All right. I have some follow-up questions to that, if you don't mind. Sure. So early in that, earlier in your answer there, you said that, you know, a lot of people see, when they imagine this, they kind of see it as a movie. And I have to ask, because I am a big fan of the film, and I think it's misunderstood.

Was it surreal then to go and make a movie about some of your experiences? It was not at all surreal. You know, I get a lot of people that say, well, did it stir, jar any memories? No, it didn't for a lot of different reasons. One, I was always under that umbrella that Chris wasn't there. You know, Chris wasn't there to be a part of his movie that he had worked hard in his career to create a good reputation and do his job diligently and protect people around him. So, you know, being under that cloud was not, you know, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was,

wish Chris had been there, as did, you know, everybody on set, no doubt about that. But it did make me work harder to make sure that they got it right within my own means. And a lot of people are like, well, that's not real and that didn't happen. And you didn't go through buds with Chris. I was like, I know. I was there, man. That's a movie. You know, the movie is telling a story.

And when people ask me about American sniper, I tell them it was Chris Kyle's story through the eyes of Clint Eastwood portrayed by Bradley Cooper's interpretation through Jason Hall's story and that's it. So was it surreal to be on set and film a movie? Yeah, I guess it was surreal to work on a movie, especially with the caliber of people. You know, I'm a big fan of Clint. Yes, working with him with something amazing. Working with Bradley Cooper's cool. He's the guy from The Hangover. We used to watch them deployment a lot. I get it. That was awesome. But it was a movie. It didn't bring back the memories that I think a lot of people would expect because we are telling a story about Chris and Biggles and Mark Lee and those gentlemen aren't around to be there, and there's actors taking their place.

All right. What's one thing that you wish American civilians understood about war in the military? I wish they had the nuts to go do it. No, I'm just kidding. No, come on, I go throw a good one. I think everyone gets sucked into, you know, I've had kids say to me like, I can't be a CEO. I'm going to die.

Man, that's not the case. You know, the military is one of the greatest institutions that we have. out in this country. And I say that because I went in as a, I wouldn't say troubled, I'd say more misguided youth. And I jumped into a program where all I saw was being a seal. I didn't appreciate the brotherhood that I formed in the teams. I didn't appreciate the educational aspect on my own character and my own capabilities that I've received in training out in Coronado, California. I didn't really see how complex the training would be and what I would learn and the skill sets that I would acquire. My time, the human beings that I came to see as mentors that helped me grow up in my young age.

And all of those skill sets that I acquired in the bonds that I formed, I didn't see how hard it would be to leave those behind when I moved on. But I've utilized all those and I've reengaged in that community. and the people I worked with, and I've turned that into very, very real opportunities. You know, I'm a professional speaker. My wife and I and Ethan Rocky wrote a fantastic book. It's a New York Times bestseller, published in four other languages. You know, I go, I get to speak quite often to large, you know, amounts of people and discuss what I've done.

I'm active in four businesses right now. And I get to give back through our charity hunting for healing. So, you know, the, the connotation of you. you're going to die really doesn't tell the story of what you're willing to gain if you're willing to engage and be an active participant in the military. And I'm very fortunate. And I want to inspire the next generation of Frogman. I want to inspire the next generation of warriors who will go ahead and protect us, you know, like people that I got to serve with did. So the military was a positive experience for me. And the only way you're going to know more about it is to go ahead

and engage those people. Thank them for their service. Thank you for your service. Can tell me, tell me about it. Tell me a story. And if, they're willing to tell, listen. I've had some opportunities to listen to my grandfather, former, you know, UDT, scouts and raiders, you know, Navy combat demolition guys back in the early days of the Frogman era. And those people inspire you. And I think it's important for Americans to listen to veterans, engage them in their businesses. And it's okay to join the military. You can actually open some doors for you. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. I appreciate it. All right, listeners, this has been War College. War College is

Jason Fields and Matthew Galt, and of course the listeners. We wouldn't have a show without you. And we really appreciate when you guys jump on iTunes and leave us a question or a comment. You can also find us on Facebook.com forward slash war college podcast where a lot of you've been reaching out and a lot of you have been talking to us and we really appreciate that.

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