Angry Planet - A First Take on the Situation in Gaza

Episode Date: October 15, 2023

Writing a blurb to describe a podcast episode isn't typically a difficult thing to do—between myself and Matthew, we've been writing for about 50 years—but as all things with Israel and the Palestinians, even writing a blurb is bound to offend someone. That's not our goal, but if you listen to the show, don't be surprised if there are a few things that you don't agree with, or even some that make you angry. It's in the name of the show, after all.This week we're talking about the Hamas attacks on Israel and their immediate aftermath. Joining us is Joseph Epstein. He's a fellow at the Endowment of Middle East Truth and a veteran of the Israel Defense Forces, and an all around smart guy.This is only the first episode we're going to have on this developing war, not the last. If this POV isn't for you, we'll be looking at some others in the weeks to come.Angry Planet has a Substack! Join to get weekly insights into our angry planet and hear more conversations about a world in conflict.https://angryplanet.substack.com/subscribeSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. So basically a soft open is when you just start talking as opposed to having a big intro with lots of music going, it's Angry Planet. No, that's not what we do. Yeah, not anymore. We used to. We used to be that show. I think we got tired of it. And I think this works better personally. I kind of like this. Yeah, it's more intimate.

Yeah, Joseph, is it Epstein or Epstein? Epstein. Epstein. Okay, because in my family, it was Epstein. So there you go. Oh, no way. That's right. You were telling me about that.

That's probably why I got published. Well, can you tell the people out there in Angry Planetland who you are? and why you might be on the show and sort of like the mystery guest? Yeah, sure. I'd love to. So I right now am a legislative fellow at a think tank, the Endowment for Middle East Truth or Emmett here in Washington, D.C., and we focus on the Middle East and especially on Israel. I've had some background in the region as well, although my main focus, for the most part,

used to be the caucuses in the post-Soviet space. But I did live in Israel for a while, as well as I was in the Army there, too. How long ago was that? I served from 2017 to 2019. Are you still in the reserves technically? I am, yes. However, since I haven't been to reserves in a very long time, I went to college afterwards. I am out of training.

However, in theory, I could be called up. Okay. Have you thought about going back? Have you felt that poll? Yeah. Every day since this started. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you have a lot of relatives in Israel, I'm going to guess? Less relatives, but a lot of really close friends. And a lot of them have been affected by this situation, unfortunately. One of my friends, his girlfriend of a long time, her cousin, is in Gaza right now as a hostage. Oh, my God. Yeah, most of my friends have lost somebody they know. I've been lucky in the fact that the only person I knew that died was somebody, from base, but I didn't know him too well.

But yeah, it's still. Yeah, we've got just one cousin and, you know, a few friends of friends who've really been directly affected so far. And the cousin was on the wrong side of the family for anyone

to actually know him. So it's one of those very weird situations. You feel very connected and yet, you know, sort of oddly distant anyway. I get what you're saying. Although I have to say one of the beautiful silver linings of this whole thing is watching the Jewish community, especially a lot of them who didn't feel such a strong connection to Israel coming together and being one. I would say a lot of, I think part of the reason that this happened, there is this, I'm not a very religious person. However, there is a lesson from the Bible that both times the Jews lost their temple.

It was due to what's called Sinat Hinnam or baseless hatred, which is when there's a huge level of divisiveness inside of the society. And that's what we've been saying in Israel. We've seen it in Israel's relations with the world as well. And it turned out to be just as an invitation to strike. Can you talk about that a little bit more, kind of the domestic politics that led up to this and what the reaction has been. domestically since the attack. You know, Netanyahu was not exactly a popular figure. Seems less so now, even in a time of war. Well, I'd say, okay, so what led up to it really is one of my issues personally with Netanyahu,

right or left, is that he has caused a lot of divisiveness in society. He took this page from, you know, political strategist from the U.S., actually. and it's really unfortunate because, again, when Israel is divided, it is weak. Now, since this happened, I have been proud of the fact that he formed a unity government that was very important. Just to see him with GANS together, it was beautiful, honestly. However, at the same time, I wouldn't say, yeah, 86%. I just read a poll.

86% of Israelis actually blame Netanyahu for what happened. So he is going to have to deal with that after this is all over. But for now, everyone has come together. Yes. So Gantz actually just, I'm going to assume not everybody knows all Israeli politicians. But he was, what was his position in the Army? Was a chief of staff? Or, I mean, I know he was very high ranking before he got into politics.

That's right. I believe he was the chief of staff. Yeah. So he's been in the Knesset, which is the parliament for quite some time now. Almost became prime minister once, but not quite. So let's just talk a little bit about what actually happened and what you know to have happened. And there's still a lot of questions for people about the facts on the ground. There's confusion.

There's people worried that they're getting information from only a single source and that the sources aren't good. How do you get your information? How do you feel sure about what you're hearing? And I also just want to give people the date we are talking is October 13th. This is an incredibly fluid situation. things are changing by the hour. So I just want to put that date and time in people's minds. Look, it's a really good point you brought up.

There is a lot of misinformation spreading about. The way that I've been doing it so far is I try to use as many sources as possible. I think that's usually the best way. And also I know who my sources are. Say, for example, it doesn't mean I won't read outlets, for example, like Al Jazeera, which I know is propaganda. however, I know what their spin is on the situation so I can sort of drift through it a lot easier. I would say in this situation, telegram channels have actually been the best for me because they show videos on the ground, direct interviews, and that kind of thing.

So those videos, again, to me, I wouldn't know what I'm looking at. I fear that I, you know, not being Belling Cat or one of the other groups that really knows what they're talking about. Do you think that people have half a chance? I mean, I've heard the term Pallywood, you know, for the Palestinian, I guess, movie making, you know, fiction videos that aren't not accurate that are put out. So, again, you know, it's like. is it just looking at who the source is, trying to figure out for yourself, whether someone's a reliable?

I'd say a lot of it is, and also seeing who picked it up. Although, you know, the media has picked up fake videos in the past and fake pictures, it's incredibly difficult, especially, you know, for people who don't have the training of, say, someone who worked at Belmont cat, of course.

Yeah, it's really not easy. I don't have a great answer. But, you know, You try to sift through. You try to see who's picked it up. And most of the time, you can sort of filter out, especially with time. Can we stick on Telegram for a minute? Because I think that's incredibly important.

I think we saw this, especially with the war in Ukraine. But now it's even more important, I think, for people that want to stay informed, maybe people that do the jobs that we do, that they have good kind of first order sources. And, you know, five years ago, Twitter, as long as you kind of knew what you were doing, was like a decent place to get breaking news and video. And I feel like places like Bellingat would pretty quickly debunk things that were, you know, that maybe been pulled from like a war 10 years ago or a video game, which is another thing that we've seen. So especially in the first few hours after the Hamas attacks, people passing off footage from ARMA three as, footage of the war. Twitter's kind of fallen, I think, as an information space.

Telegram is really, if you want sometimes the very raw, uncut footage of what is actually happening, both collected from people on the ground and also propagated by like Hamas and like more legitimate governments, you can see. it on telegram. There's a great, great account is maybe the wrong way to phrase it, but there is a account worth following that is a group of first responders

in Southern Israel that is sorting through footage as they find it. Before we got on a few hours ago, they had published, they had found GoPro footage on the bodies of dead Hamas fighters that were at the music festival. Some pretty horrendous stuff.

But again, you can see what happened. And it's relatively uncensored. How do you get into Telegram? How do you navigate that space? And how do you keep your, how do you sort truth from lies there? Yeah. So getting really set up on Telegram to find the channels that are your go-toes is difficult and it takes some time. However, it is definitely worthwhile.

A lot of the time you can find them either through recommendations from friends or just sometimes a lot of the telegram channels I've found actually are linked in other telegram channels. So it'll be one posting on an event from somewhere else. And then the link that it cites is that one, which has the raw video. And then I know that this is a good firsthand source as well. One of my go-toes, that's actually really weird, has been this channel called Ozfront, A-Z, F-R-O-N-T. and it's a Russian language one, and it's supposed to cover the South Caucasus, and it always did,

which is why I was interested in it. I lived in the South Caucasus for a while. It's really my interest in. But then all of a sudden, I noticed that their coverage of everything that was happening in Israel was some of the best. I mean, they were having live updates of what was going on as it was going on,

like nobody else, including the Israeli channels, including even the IDF's telegram channel. So the IDF, do you ever find yourself being a little skeptical of their reporting? I mean, you were actually in the idea, I mean, which would give you sort of a different view. I mean, do you feel like people can really rely on that or those, that feed, so to speak? I'd say you could rely on the IDF speed probably as much as most militaries. It's a bit of a cryptic answer, but I would trust it like the U.S. military.

Okay, so maybe not at all. Well, they're going to have a perspective. Sure. And they are generating, I think it's fair to say they are generating propaganda both for domestic and for foreign consumption. It doesn't mean that the propaganda is not true or reflects reality, but you have to take into account what their goals are releasing pieces of information, right? That's actually exactly right. I would say that the people who are doing propaganda well are using real information and they try to form a narrative out of it. So, for example, I've seen some channels that haven't responded on anything that happened in Israel, but then they show, you know, Palestinian mothers.

holding up babies. And of course, this is, you know, it's a real image. This happened. However, if you don't show the full picture, of course, you're giving a very slanted narrative. That's one of the things that I think is going to come up more and more and more images, literally. from now from Gaza. When I look through photo feeds, and I'm seeing like the one from Getty, which is one of the largest photo agencies in the world, and just part of my job is I look through Getty images

to find photos to go with stories. And the photos from Gaza are always dramatic. And it feels like they're always going to be dramatic. I mean, it's, it is a situation where people are trapped very tightly. And if you're going to drop a bomb in Gaza, the chances of not hitting a civilian are very, very small. How do you think Israel deals with that kind of imagery? Does it matter to Israel? Does it, you know, is it just part of, how do you deal with the narrative, which is going to be formed by images like that?

And I think does it, does Israel care how its Western audience perceives those images coming out of Gaza? And I would, just as an information point, I would point to, you were talking about stuff from the IDF, the Israeli Air Force published a couple hours ago. You said we've dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza. Here are four photos of the leveling of cities there. No humans in those photos. But again, as Jason was saying, like civilians were there. So I will just add that as a data point to your question, Jason. Yeah, sure.

I mean, of course Israel cares. That's the reason why they haven't taken care of Hamas in the past. I mean, what their strategy has always been, and a couple years ago is a perfect example. Hamas fired 4,000 rockets in Israeli territory, 4,000 rockets. I can't imagine another country that after that kind of thing would happen, wouldn't take them out. But Israel doesn't. What they did is what they've done in the past with Gaza whenever they fire rockets and when they're attacks, that kind of thing. they bomb a few buildings, they show the pictures, and they declare it a victory.

However, this time is different. This time, the Israeli public is not going to allow that to happen. They are furious at that Njahou that it's gotten to this point. They are furious that we need to even do this right now because it's just there were so many opportunities in the past to stop it before it got to this point. So in the future, I guess we will see, as Netanyahu said, this war is going to be long and bloody. So there's going to be a lot of time for the narrative to change. And one of the things I fear is that despite some of the worst images you could see that we've seen, that I've seen in all of my life, the public narrative can change against Israel very fast. Well, I mean, that's already, I mean, we're already seeing that shape.

up, right? There were people that had, and are still having, as we're speaking, a knee-jerk reaction that I think is anti-Israel. And despite the fact that Hamas itself on its channels is publishing photographs of its brutality, you had a knee-jerk reaction from liberal intelligence in America specifically that kind of bandied behind Hamas and called this anti-colonialism, right? So that is happening. And I don't know how you break through to those people when Hamas is very clear about what its goals are. If you just ask them, they will tell you. And they publish the photos, right?

Yeah, you don't break through to those people. If we've learned anything from this, after hearing about decapitated babies, you can't support this issue. There's nothing you can hear about that will make you support this issue. Unfortunately, this whole anti-colonial thing, it's just, I would say it's part of a certain ideology, a very dangerous one, that has taken root in a lot of liberal institutions and especially at our universities, that in my eyes is a cancer. And by the way, you know who's leading the fight for anti-colonialism now? it's actually Putin. He announced it a year ago. Pretty soon after his invasion of Ukraine,

so it's kind of ironic the fact that Russia, the biggest colonial power would be saying that. But it was a return to sort of the Soviet Union when in the 70s, a good friend of mine said it's like they're cosplaying the 70s. When they were trying to really lead these liberation movements all across the globe, and they were the number one sponsors of it. And for a lot of the time, they had people in the very extreme left wing on their side. I think what we've seen is a lot of this is becoming more and more mainstream.

We've seen that this trend has been happening for a long time. And I hope that this time it's a wake-up call to our leaders that we really have to do something about it. But is the answer to, level Gaza, which is what it seems like Israel is going to do. And there's what, two million people there. And it's, I understand that Hamas has committed a horrifying, brutal crime and has reveled in it. But is the answer then for Israel to level the civilian population in those cities? I don't think we should. We shouldn't kill two million people. Of course, no. That would be terrible. I think what needs to be done, though, it's proven that Gaza can't exist in the form

that it's been existing since Israel left it. What the answer to that isn't clear. One thing that I think would be great is if we put pressure on Arab countries to actually assimilate them. For a very long time, Arab countries have refused to take in any Palestinians. And even if they do take in Palestinians, they're not actually assimilated. They're not even given citizenship. So how is a person supposed to actually assimilate into society become part of that society without that? And the reason, by the way, that they haven't done that is because Arab countries in general support the Palestinian cause much more than the Palestinian people. They don't care about the Palestinian people. They don't care how many die. They want the state of Palestine.

to be formed and they're willing to pay any price in terms of Palestinian life for it. Yeah, I think when you're, one of the reasons why we're at this pass in terms of the language we use, like colonialism, decolonial, you know, some of it's a misunderstanding of history. Some of it's just a sheer honest to God disagreement as to what happened back in history. and the way I was always taught about the 48 War of Independence, which, you know, is called the Great Disaster by the Palestinians, Nakva, right? Was that the Israel formed or was allowed to form by the UN charter. And every Arab country, something like it was six different Arab countries invaded at the same. same time. There were Palestinians who were there. I mean, the Palestinians did not agree to the

Palestinian state that they were offered. And therefore, a fight broke out immediately. Israel prevailed. The Jews prevailed. I think might as well be very specific because there wasn't really in Israel. And ever since people have, you know, people on the Palestinian side have lost their land. Some of them fled and now want to come back or at least want the land. But that's not how that story is being told. Right? I mean, that's not what I'm not going to get into it, but my own son has a different version of history. You know, he's the right age. Can we can we actually get into it? Because I don't know what that counter narrative is, actually. that from what I understand, and Joseph, please interrupt me.

From what I understand, it's that Jews didn't belong in the land that is now called Israel to begin with, that they had been coming in as foreigners and occupying land and territory, especially in the years after 1900, and especially again after what happened with the Nazis in Europe, the Holocaust, that it was just a flood of essentially foreigners who then divided up the land in the way they wanted the land divided and colonized, especially 67, when Israel took over the West Bank and also Gaza and also the Golan Heights and Sinai. I mean, it was actually that war was, Israel was very successful, that all of a sudden, you know, what Israel is as colonizers in some sense. Or, you know, that they've now controlled the fates of Palestinians living within their territory or actually inside Palestinian territory is the narrative, right? and it's interesting because you, I guess my feeling is, you can interpret it some of it that way and you can spin it that way.

And it doesn't really reflect all of what happened, but it reflects a piece of what happened. And if you're looking at it through a weird sort of skewed prism, you know, that's, that's what people see. No, you're exactly right. I think a lot of these people see the world in terms of colonialism and non-colonialism, and they also see it from wherever they are. So everybody has to put their own perspective on it.

So Americans have to put the American perspective on it, Europeans, the European perspective, etc., etc. Right? We can only understand things through the boxes that we've created in our minds. And understanding things in that sense, though, when it comes to colonialism, non-colonialism, it's a very toxic way of thinking, I'd say. At the end of the day, you know, we're all people. People talk also, by the way, there is a counterargument to it, which is that Jews are indigenous to the land, that according to DNA also, it's shown they're closer to Palestinians

even than to the Europeans, for example. there's also a point to be made that most Jews in Israel right now are the descendants of Jews that were kicked out from the Middle East, from Egypt, from Syria, from Lebanon. Iraq. Algeria, Morocco, yeah. Iran. Yeah, Iran as well. However, I don't think we should be looking at things in terms of what your DNA is. It just feels really eugenicsy to me.

I think the fact was that, you know, you can't put together this historical narrative, but at this end of the day, we're in this land, we're there together, we have to build some sort of future, we have to develop and make our lives nice so we can live with each other. And I really wonder about that possibility. You know, it's so funny because, you know, growing up in the United States with relatives, in Israel who we saw, you know, what, like once every year, once every two years. We could afford to be liberal in the United States and have a more, you know, so-called liberal view.

But honestly, my relatives really simply did not like Palestinians very much or wanted to be very, very, very far away from them. I mean, you can probably understand, given all the terrorists, the attacks, everything else that's happened. I'll tell you something, though. In Israel, they really do differentiate between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. There really is a divide there. 20% of Israeli society is Arab. They work as doctors, as lawyers. There's one on the Supreme Court. They're in the Knesset as well. One of my best friends who I served with is Bedouin from the North. And he's no, less of a brother to me than the Jewish people I serve with as well. So at the same time, I do feel, yeah, I would feel on guard living near the Palestinians, but it's not really a racial or cultural thing.

It's more that I just know the amount of hatred that they've grown up with. I know that there's always the potential for some sort of attack. And yeah, it's, it's unfortunate. but it's just very, very tense. Yeah, that's what I guess what I was thinking is, how do you actually make peace? I don't think anyone's have come up with a really good solution to that. I mean, I think

I can say on both sides, both sides feel like they've learned lessons about the other. Have they? Though, I mean, we're... Have they actually learned lessons? Have they, I mean, they've maybe we've, they've maybe learned how to fight each other better.

right no what i meant was they feel like well i know that you're a terrorist i know that you're a you know you're a a soldier out to kick my ass that that kind of learning about each other i think i think it's not really as much learning about each other it's about what they're getting from their governments from their school systems and everything else and if you end up looking at the school curriculum for palestinians there's a great um organization palestinian media watch actually that monitors these kinds of things. And they'll show the curriculum at UN-sponsored schools, unresponsive schools. And some of it's just deplorable. I mean, they're teaching math in terms of how many, if there are 40 Israelis and you kill 30, how many are left? How does a child have a

chance, you know, if they're being indoctrinated to that level? And then as a society, how can you live with someone who's just been brought up on that. I can also give you an example from the army. When I was in the military, I was stationed in East Jerusalem near Shofat. Shofat is this, it's technically part of area as sea, or no, it might be part of Israel proper. However, it's full of Hamas and these really can't even go in there on their own. They need huge battalions to do it. And it's overrun with Hamas, drugs, guns, and Lafiosos. And on Fridays, this teachers would, I believe it was Friday's.

I forget the day, but the teachers would let their kids off early or when it was a holiday, also like Jerusalem Day, that kind of thing, to come and throw rocks at us. I mean, how is, again, how are those children supposed to have a chance? You're listening to Angry Planet. We'll be right back. And we're back with the best show on the internet, Angry Planet. I think that's a totally legitimate question, and I wonder how you can do any kind of reset. I mean, even if I say that, you know, Israelis are not brought up with necessarily loving their hearts for Palestinians or necessarily Arabs,

and people are also, whether they're learning it in a school curriculum, people are getting what they get at home as well. I just don't know how you tone this down. I mean, I remember when Arafat and Rabin shook hands, and there was a moment that looked like hope. I really wonder just how close it ever really got. You know? Very close, to be honest with you. You think it was just a photo op? You know, okay, so this is interesting.

Arefat, there is a speech of him, I believe, in a mosque in South Africa. I forget. but he was saying in Arabic that this whole peace deal is just a tactic. Whether he meant that or whether he just thought he had to say that, I don't know. But what I can tell you is that for a lot of the people in the Palestinian Authority, that is what they believe. I do think, however, when a lot, because the Palestinian Authority, let's be honest, they were professional terrorists.

They came from the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which killed, you know, countless Jews. civilians. And once they got into power, though, something did change in the sense that they got a lot lazier. They didn't have to do anything to get funds. Really? They knew that they could just show the world undeveloped Palestine and play the victim or be the victim. And through that, it's just one of the best ways of fundraising. They showed people in the West. They showed Qatar. they show Americans and everybody wants to donate money to them. Yet they're not doing anything to make their problem any better. And the officials then take that aid and they pocket a good amount of it.

I think a boss is one of the richest presidents in the world. I mean, think about it. How did that happen? No, it's true. And I mean, his comments about the Holocaust are absolutely. I mean, they're Holocaust denial. I mean, and it really is out there. I mean, it's so funny.

I mean, you could easily think, oh, my God, more Israeli propaganda. But all you have to do is read transcripts. I mean, for a boss in particular, you don't really have to do any. They are not shy about what they believe. They will tell you. They are not embarrassed. They are not hiding it. It is not unclear.

It is very, very clear. I would say sometimes what they say in Arabic, honestly, it's even worse. So if what they're saying in English is bad, again, I recommend looking at Palestinian media watch because they really document this stuff. And you'll see awful things. You really will. Can we do, sorry, Jason, can we do a little bit of history, actually? And I'm sorry if I'm putting anyone on the spot. Why is Hamas in charge?

There was an election in 2006, an election, right? Is that what happened? Like, oh, it's a real election. Okay. What did, yeah, what happened? So what happened is under pressure from Bush, Ariel Sharon, I believe it was, ordered the evacuation of Gaza. Before Gaza was a lot more like Judean Samaria, where they had Jewish settlements there. And at the time, he said, okay, let's try peace.

Let's actually give them some land. He ordered everybody out. There were massive protests inside of Israel. But they, at the end of the day, the army forced all the Jews out and they give them their land. afterwards they had they had their elections which were real where it was the PA against Hamas and Hamas won

and that's how they got to power through democracy it's amazing who can win an election has there been in the United States it's funny you know has there been an election since then not a real one no

so yeah Matthew I was just kind of wondering because I think Joseph and I, him probably more than I, but we have sort of more than me. We have a stake in this, right? I mean, so, I mean, I've talked before on the show. I've mentioned being Jewish. We've talked about the Holocaust and all that kind of stuff.

So I'm curious what you are thinking, Matthew, and like, you know, what questions that you have? Because I think maybe for a show, it might not be bad to be challenged. well I mean is Gaza do you do you it's funny because I spent a decent portion of not yesterday but the day before

talking to a a Palestinian emergency room doctor for like an hour about what it's like to work in Gaza so this has been on my mind and it's it I have been thinking about this a lot.

Because I am someone that does not, that is not Jewish and does not have a stake in this. I have Jewish friends. I have Palestinian friends. And I, like this conflict feels so intractable. There is a sense, from me that I just, you just want to throw up your hands and walk away,

that it's hard to understand. And a thing that has been frustrating me in the immediate aftermath is something that we've kind of touched on a little bit is this people turning war into team sports and kind of mapping their political ideologies onto a conflict that doesn't have much to do with them whether that is, you know, full bore support for one side or the other. But I do like, I think that

again, what Hamas did is terrorism and was brutal. And like I said, I just got done watching a video from the music, from the music festival where they went down Hamas with a GoPro on, went down the line of porta-potties and fired rifle rounds into the individual toilets, just to make sure. Hamas just published a video of them,

rendering aid to some of the children that they had kidnapped. This stuff is terrible. But, like, how long can people live in what the UN has described as an open-air prison before brutality is the response that doesn't excuse it? It is not, and I think it's not, as a political strategy, it's not going to work out. because I think the bombing is already incredible and will continue to be incredible. But I also think bombing as a strategy for this is probably not going to work out. So I just, I don't know.

I don't know. This is incredibly complicated. And the history is so deep. So, I mean, my challenge would be like, how do you go to war with a political enemy that hides in tunnels underneath its people who intentionally sets up its command centers in schools and civilian centers. And you know that Hamas is the problem and has to be decapitated, has to be removed from power. And how do you do that without, you know, killing two million people? and how like what is the expectation when you tell them when you when you alert the population hey in 24 hours you should be gone because we're about to level all of your cities in the response to Egypt who is the other border is we're not setting up humanitarian corridor fuck that you guys are trapped it's two million people trapped with you know and how many of them are staunchamoss supporters how many of them are just trying to live

their lives. I don't know. So that's just a long-winded answer to your question. I don't have great challenges to this stuff. I don't know what's going on. I just know what I see. And I know that the conversations I've had with you find people and with others. And that's the only context I have.

It's, no, it's a terrible, terrible situation. And part of the reason Egypt doesn't want to take him is because Egypt itself, was on the brink of collapse. So is Jordan, by the way. All the Arab leaders are scared to death that this will be a new 9-11 and that it means all of a sudden hell is going to rain down on the Middle East and there will be a lot more destabilization. Yeah, it's really hard to fight.

However, we also have to realize the war isn't just against Hamas. Hamas is just an arm of Iran. So is Kasbala, by the way. They are entirely funded by Iran, or not entirely. I'm sorry. They are, for the most part, supported and funded by Iran. Iran also reportedly give them training to carry out this attack. I don't think they had the sophistication to do it otherwise. And a big aspect of fighting this war is going to be striking Iran back. There's just no other option. Look, I don't know what your opinions on Donald Trump were. However, he did a really good thing in the Middle East, which was killing the Kuz-Fort.

commander, Qasem Soleimani, who was really the godfather of Iranian strategy of setting up these proxies and terrorist organizations. And the Iranians, you know, they yelled and threatened and said they were going to bring hell upon the U.S. And then they did nothing. Actually, not only did they do nothing, but attacks against U.S. forces from both Iranians or against U.S. forces or their allies from both Iranians and from Iranian proxies actually was reduced following that. So if we don't actually follow this up with a very strong policy against Iran and a very aggressive one as well, then we're not actually going to be solving anything. When it comes to trying to fight Hamas groups in tunnels, yeah, it's incredibly difficult. I think one of the very necessary things is trying to

evacuate the citizens, if even temporarily to Sinai, which would reduce the risk of civilians being hurt because nobody wants to see that. Well, Israel doesn't want to see that. The EU doesn't want to see that. I think the Arab world, for the most part, doesn't want to see that. Hamas definitely wants to see that, by the way. Iran wants to see it too. For them, the deaths of civilians are nothing but a tool to be used to win the PR war. I wish I could totally disagree with you there. But especially with Iran, it's such a cheap and easy way to just fuck with the United States. States, fuck with Israel, by having these proxy groups. I mean, it's not like it's free. I mean, it costs money to support Hezbollah and Hamas. But I think it's money they have. And it's better when the war is not in your country. It's in someone else's, right? Yeah. Right. You know.

Also, the Iranians, I mean, they do not. It, price isn't really an option when this is your number one priority, right? The Iranians have two. major priorities, surviving and exporting this terrible ideology with all the terrorism that comes with it. They don't care about their people. 30% live below the poverty level, yet they send billions of dollars to Hamas and Hezbollah. Also, you know, you've seen what they've done to protesters as well. What they do to ethnic minorities is awful. I mean, it's something that isn't talked about much, but the campaign of ethnic repression against, you know, the Azerbaijani's, which make up 30 million people in Iran. The Baloch, just a couple weeks ago, actually, they were shooting, opening fire on children, Baluch children that were part of protests.

It was, you know, despicable. The banning of cultural rights, the locking up of cultural figures as well, I believe in Azerbaijani one was locked up not too long ago. It's just a very vicious regime that, again, does not. care about it citizens. Yeah, I'd love to argue about that one, but I don't think, no. I mean, we've actually not had anyone on the show in eight years who was pro-Iran. Is there, okay, here's the, like, is there anybody that is actually, except for like really big fringe groups? Oh, there are people in the U.S. government who have been for it.

I mean, I don't know if you guys saw this investigation by Iran International, I believe Stemaphore as well that came out a few weeks ago. But do you guys know who Robert Mali is? Robert Mali is the U.S. Special Envoy to Iran. He, by the way, has a crazy story. He was, I believe Yasser Arafat was his godfather. His father was one of the only Jews that Nasser allowed to keep his Egyptian citizenship. And he became a propagandist for the Nasser's regime.

Then Mali, of course, grew up very anti-Israel, very pro-Palestinian. he got into hot water when he said they should talk to Hamas during Barack Obama's election. And he was really the godfather of this deal. So anyway, this investigation came out and it showed that three of the aides that he wanted to hire had direct talks with the Iranian regime. I mean, Aliye has even sent a message to the former foreign minister of Iran, Javad Zarif, saying that he pledges his loyalty to Iran. It was absurd. There was the other, I forget her name. It was something to bought a tie, to buy.

I'm spacing on her last name. Excuse me for that. But she actually asked for permission from somebody in the IRGC before she traveled to Israel on a government job. And this, I mean, consider, this is somebody who had high up security clearance. So, yeah, there, unfortunately, there are people that are pro-Iran, even in our government. And hopefully, you know, they will take the needed steps to get them out. I'm tired. I got to say.

I think everybody's tired right now. Yeah. It's been a draining week, Jason. I can't imagine. Have you guys been sleeping? Not much. Yeah. My wife is even more closely tied to Israel.

And she's not sleeping. She's just, you know, doom scrolling if she wakes up in the middle of the night for, you know, because she's too hot or whatever. Then she starts looking at her phone as soon as she does. It's fine not to. Yeah. Let me know what telegram channels she's on. Yeah. Okay.

Maybe I should. Anyway, um, Joseph, uh, thank you very much for coming on the show. I want to also just mention one thing that, um, You wrote, we just published in Newsweek, which is about Qatar, our favorite Arab country that rhymes with guitar. Anyway, sorry, I really apologize for that. I do. The look on Matthew's face is perfect. Anyway, but that they are a huge friend of the United States, according to the United States.

But on the other hand, they are funding terror like nobody's business. Do you want to just very quickly take us through the article and then we'll let you go? Yeah, I would love to, actually. This is something that bothers me to a great extent. Yeah, Qatar is a major, a non-NATO major U.S. ally, which is a pretty big deal. They have a U.S. air base there as well. And we are in close cooperation. They also spend great billions of dollars in our educational institutions, in think tanks like the Brooking Institute.

For Cornell, I forget, I think it was something like a billion dollars or maybe more that they've spent just to influence popular opinion at the same time. And they're very close to the U.S. And yet at the same time, they have these relationships with groups like al-Qaeda, with ISIS, I believe there was potential ties. they're allegedly with the John Jewit who carried out the genocide in Darfur, with the Taliban, we know, with Hamas. A lot of their Hamas heads sit in Doha and are free. I mean, this is a terrorist organization that has said destroying Israel is their goal. Yet they're sitting in one of our greatest allies in the Middle East. They're sitting in their capital and penthouses and taken care of.

Also, Qatar has waged one of the worst propaganda wars against Israel through its state-run media, Al Jazeera. which is just for the past, I don't know how many years, it's just been, you know, horrendous, the way that they twist the narrative in any way they can to be against Israel. And yet, we use them as a mediator in the Middle East. We are still have good relations with them. Donald Trump sold them $12 billion, I believe. It was Biden last year who made them, gave them the major non-NATO U.S. ally status. It's just, it's absurd. I mean, it's, it's absurd. I mean, it's, It makes it clear that money can buy influence. And what the Qatari say, by the way, their excuse is that they need to have good relations

with everybody and then they can be a mediator, blah, blah, blah. But in reality, and this is, you can see it with them, they really believe in this ideology. The national security advisor, I believe it was, to the Qatari Amir, he even said in an interview, I believe two years ago, that he sees Qatar as having deep ideological ties with the Taliban. I mean, that really tells you where they are. So we, in my eyes, the U.S. has to give them an ultimatum. It's either stop cutting, you know, stop with support for terrorism, stop, you know, supporting all these terrorist groups, stop supporting this type of ideology, stop using Al Jazeera as a weapon and funding an information war against Israel. And if you don't

then you're going to lose your status and you're going to become an enemy. That sounds pretty good to me, actually, the whole enemy thing. But I'm sure there's a price to be paid for that too. Well, anyway, and I have to take a second because I cannot pronounce Cutter the way you do. That my guitar remark way off the bat, you know, the board just wrong as it can be. I wasn't going to say anything, but if we're bringing it up. No, I'm glad someone said something. So I'm happy to reach deep in your throat, like really deep in the throat.

Yeah. It's a hard one. The only reason I'm able to do it, I lived in Georgia for a few years over the past decade. And that's a pretty common sound in their language. So I really had to learn it. Otherwise, it's a different word. Okay. And by the way, that's the country of Georgia.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now, Elena, though, it's a new one in the Atlanta is able to. All right. All right. Well, that's the kind of silly note we never get to go out on. So, and it's better than the depressing note we've been living under for the last week. So that's fair. Yeah. I do just want to, I do just want to flag here at the end that we are going to be doing more on this topic. We've got some returning people. And I may try to get that emergency room doctor on the show as well.

that would be amazing. It was my plan. So there will be more coverage of this, more more conversations. I think it may also be worth, I know we've done this before, but it may be worth doing a history episode again. Maybe even focusing on just the last 20 years, because I think it's probably the most consequential for what's going on now. It's maybe not a terrible idea. Yeah. Well, Joseph, thank you so much for coming on the show.

I enjoy working with you through Newsweek, and just thank you. Yeah, of course. I'm really glad to be here, and thank you for giving me an outlet. And thank you, Matthew, as well. Absolutely. Thanks for listening to another episode of AngryPont. The show is produced with love by Matthew Galt and Jason Fields, with the assistance of Kevin this is the place where we ask you for money.

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