Angry Planet - Confronting the Reality of War

Episode Date: May 29, 2018

Only 1 percent of all Americans serve in the military. Even fewer ever see combat. All of those who do are changed by the experience. This week Tony Russo shares some of the stories he’s gathered from combat veterans for the This Is War podcast.You can listen to War College on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. Our website is warcollege.co. You can reach us on our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/warcollegepodcast/; and on Twitter: @War_College.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. He's back in the same places that he was shot walking around, like, it's okay. And I just, you know, I can't imagine what it's like to know that you're in a place where at any time someone could just pull the trigger and end you. You're listening to War College, a weekly podcast that brings you the stories from behind the front lines. Here are your hosts, Matthew Galt and Jason Fields. Hello and welcome to War College. I'm Jason Fields. And I'm Matthew Galt. Only a tiny percentage of people in the United States will ever serve in the military. Of that number, something around 3 million, not everyone will see combat.

So what about those who do? What have they seen that the rest of the country hasn't? And how has it affected them? Answering those questions is what Anthony Russo's show is all about. This is war offers a peek into the life of those who serve. So today, we're welcoming Tony Russo to tell us what he's learned. Hey. Hi, how you doing, guys?

Good. So let's just jump right into it. Okay. So what's the idea behind the show and who are you trying to reach? Well, the idea behind the show came from the folks at Incongruity Media who saw that there was this kind of, there are so many podcasts, and there just wasn't anything that they loved about,

that was kind of getting at the experience of combat veterans. And what they wanted me to do is to find a way to tell the story just very objectively, but also in a compelling way. The audience, I think, think many of the people who reach out to me about the show and are people who are serving and

generally they reach out to say yes I've heard this this is my story this story resonates with me so a lot of our listeners are our military but I think the people who get the most out of it are the non-military listeners because there is this

disconnect I think I know for me I mean you know I'm a news person by trade so I've been kind of engaged and I thought I had kind of a good understanding about, you know, the political, I guess, aspects of the war. But you don't realize what these people literally have seen. And when you try to personalize that, it gives you, I think, a better insight into what it's like to just, even just sitting in the desert being unshowered for a month. That really is actually hard to picture. Yeah.

And they talk about it like it's normal. And that's what is that's what makes the story so compelling. Like the number of pretty much every conversation that I have with with an Iraq or an Afghanistan veteran, they'll say a phrase like, I don't remember the first time I got blown up or the first time I got blown up. This happened. Like IEDs are normal. Like it is normal to have an explosion occurred during your regular workday. I mean, just imagine you go to lunch. And then you're on your way back from lunch.

And there's a massive explosion that can and often does kill people. Sometimes people you know, sometimes people you don't. You know, it can destroy or just ding, you know, the vehicle you're in. And you're like, okay, now it's 1 o'clock. I've only got 10 hours left in my day. And you're just still back at it. It's a terrifying inconvenience, you know? And it's something that I, even as even talking to these people,

something that I still find mind-boggling every time I hear it. And how many veterans have you interviewed at this point? Well, the show, we have eight shows out. I think the eighth show is due out in a couple of days, but I've probably spoken with 30 or 40 at least. I speak with pretty much everyone who writes into the show. I interview for about an hour. So I've got all of these stories kind of on backlog,

and then I just kind of pick one every week and do kind of a deep dive into their whole career. Have you talked to somebody from every branch so far? I believe so. Well, not the Coast Guard for sure. I know I've spoken with Air Force personnel, but I don't know if I've recorded any. I did, I mean, this is War College. So you guys probably know this and your listeners probably know it as well. But something that I didn't know was that there's no such thing as a Marine doctor, you know,

Like, you could join the Navy and then become a corpsman, which is their medic, or become a surgeon in the Navy and then end up in the desert because that's where the Marines get their doctors from. The doctors are all Navy doctors and corpsmen and nurses with the Marines. So the Marines always deploy with a corpsman, but the corpsman's Navy, which is something I thought was super cool. I didn't know that. So you're getting a pretty large, I guess, sampling size.

Have there been any kind of central themes that have emerged? Does there a running through line to all of this? I think the running through line would have to be this sense that they're often as conflicted as we are about how to talk about their experience. You know, they don't want to sound cliche. And they definitely like, you know, we outside the military, you know, tend to think of like PTSD in these broad strokes. And it's not, I think that they would say that, many of them would say anyway, that the problem with PTSD is really just like they want to be able to resume their normal lives and not have their experiences kind of break in upon them. But in order to do that, they have to be comfortable knowing that you'll understand that the people around them will understand their stories. But unfortunately, even, you know, a very plain deployment is something completely foreign to people who haven't been deployed.

And they know that at some level. They know that they could tell you, but that you wouldn't get it. And again, so one of the things that we tried hard, really hard to do on this is for is to bridge that gap, like to make it so that you can better empathize and not feel sorry for it, but just get that, you know, there's a reason if you have a friend or a family member who is a very, that and they seem like they're distant. There's a reason. Like, it's hard to communicate to someone who's not done it, what goes on. And I think, as I mentioned earlier, I think the shower is just a great example. Like, they just get used to not showering for a year.

Like, there are major inconveniences that they don't even recognize it as problems that we recognize as horrifying. And bridging that gap is what I think that they're trying to do when they call into me. and certainly what their struggles when they come home. I mean, a lot of it has to do with what they've seen, but it on some level has to do with their ability to communicate their experience to people who haven't shared it. And that's something that's really important to them, huh? I think so.

I think so. I mean, everybody wants to feel like they're part of their community. They want to feel like they're understood. And so a lot of times that's why the FW and places like that, that have this special meaning for a lot of veterans. And now I know that there are a lot of veterans groups that are either through the VA or just independent on Facebook. And they feel like they're, but they feel like they're still a part.

And I mean, they are still a part of the service. But I think a lot of times they worry that they're not still a part of the larger community. And that's why it can be taught, I think. Do you think that there's now a real strong civilian military divide in this country? No, I don't think it's a strong divide. I don't think that at all. I mean, and I don't think that the guys and gals that I've spoken to, they don't get that sense like that there's like a kind of us versus them thing.

But as the war, you know, one of the guys is who was on Ian Merns. He was actually, he was on episode one. And recently he got interviewed on his local television station. And he sent me a copy of it and it was awesome. And, you know, when they said to him, you know, what, what do you want people? to know what he said is i want people to know that there's still a war going on you know there are people there now that are dying i mean he joined on august seventh or something 2001 so he joined before we were at war and that was coming up on 20 years ago and it's when when there was the

surge and when there something really really bad happens you know then we all want to donate to Operation We Care or any of the VFW programs to get things to veterans. But we don't realize that right now, as whoever is listening to this is listening to it, there are unshowered people who are getting used to getting blown up by IEDs right now. And it's still something that's going on. And it's easy to forget them because it's not in the news every day, you know, where it's not as it doesn't feel as pressing for those of us at home. But for those who are serving and for those who have served, they recognize that there are still people abroad who are deployed and that they are in real danger and they are undergoing something that it's going to take them a long time to come to terms with even if they have a quote uneventful unquote tour, you know.

Well, can you tell us the story of at least one of the people that, you know, not everybody's going to be familiar with your podcast. Right. And although after this, they may be more familiar with it. So maybe just as an example, can you tell the story of Joe Alato, for example? Sure, absolutely. He's one of the more recent shows. Joe Alato was, he grew up in D.C., in D.C. area, Montgomery County, I believe. And he always wanted to be in the Army.

Just his whole thing was, I want to be in the Army. And he wasn't going to be deterred from that. And so he joined up. and he just liked being in the army, but he didn't know what that meant. You know, he's like, well, I want to be in the army. And, you know, that's one thing that happens to a lot of people is they don't know that there's a step two. I mean, I talk to a lot of Marines and, you know, a lot of Marines are like, I really just thought it was boot camp. And then after boot camp, I'm like, oh, wow, now I still have to stay for four more years.

And so Joe's thing was his idea was that he wanted to serve and he wanted to be there for his guys, especially as he kind of made it through the ranks. And he went on several deployments. And he was an MP. And what was interesting is that he joined, again, he was committed to join before the towers fell, before 9-11. So he was actually on his last, his senior summer was 2001. And so he knew that he was probably going to get deployed, and he really wanted to get deployed. A lot of them did, especially at first.

But he became an MP, and what he discovered was that they weren't training MPs for combat in the way that they trained. Like, infantry always trains for combat no matter what. But, you know, the MP training was more focused on garrison work, is what they call it, you know, just being the on-based police force. you know and so he had to kind of learn as he went and the military you know they're they're quick to to switch but there was this weird time that first two years uh after 2011 i'm sorry after 2001 where they had to say okay now we have to really focus our MP training on patrols and things like that and so joe his first tour was in kosovo or someplace some horrible genocide place like that that was over but they were just on patrol but what it was

for him kind of gave him a sense of like okay this is what war looks like when it's over you know it's still really really ugly and it can be really ugly but he really took to the military and i think the uh what made story so compelling to for me is that he got that he got shot um on patrol once his his tour was over and to go on one more because he was training these guys and want to have a piece time job. So he went one more time, like it really just very movie-like. Okay, this is my last one.

And the whole time on his guys and telling them, don't be an easy target, you know, don't be a soft target. You know, make it so that nobody thinks that they're going to get away with messing with you. And he was just walking down the street during a patrol one day, and a sniper picked him out of everybody else to shoot.

And he shot him in the neck. And I had an answer. ask him to tell me this story and I don't understand it still but I'll just tell it to you when he got shot he thought he was shot in the chest and he explained to me how it was just the size of the round that made it feel that way but that's the kind of thing that I'd like to get try to get people to imagine is like can you imagine being shot in the neck so hard that you don't know you're shot in the neck you think you're shot in the chest I mean, that's just, it's an experience. And, like, how do you communicate that experience? Because he's telling this whole story about how his chest hurt and his chest is and how he was sure he was shot in the chest. And he didn't find out until he was most of the way to the hospital that he was shot in the neck. He really thought it was a chest wound.

And that kind of concussion is what is what's mind-boggling to me. But he survived. And he was, you know, only two weeks, only two weeks or maybe. maybe two months into a year-long tour. I think it was maybe two months. And so he healed and he had to go back on patrol. And he didn't only have to not be afraid. He had to look like he wasn't afraid because he's leading, he's leading guys.

So he's back in the same places that he was shot walking around like, it's okay. And I just, you know, I can't imagine what it's like to know that you're in a place where at any time someone could just pull the trigger and end you. you know and to pretend to have to be cool with that after it's already happened to you is just it's just astounding to me and but he got he got through the tour and you know he's one of the things he said was you know we got he's like nothing really happened we got blown up a couple more times but there wasn't anything serious but what i thought made his story super compelling thing was that he didn't go home, home after the war, after his tour of duty was over,

and he decided not to reenlist. He took a year to travel, and he just wanted to go see the Great Pyramids, among other things. He wanted to tour, you know, the Middle East and Africa and then Europe. And he was in Egypt, and he was walking down the street, and all of a sudden he found himself, like, worrying about snipers and, like, hiding, from things. And he decided there that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life hating Middle Eastern people. And he didn't want to spend the rest of his life being afraid every time he, you know,

smelled the smells. He wanted to be able to go abroad and comfortably. And so he decided that he was just going to stay in Egypt until he wasn't afraid of Muslims anymore, brown people anymore. You know, he wasn't until he was comfortable. and he could make the difference until he could see the difference between a war zone and his regular life. And that's what worked for him. And many of the people I speak with, that's when they're successful.

They're successful because they find a way to break down that separation between their war life and their non-war life and kind of integrate them into something that is just their regular life. you know, and it takes work and effort. And, you know, and it's really hard for a lot of people. And that's something that you talk about in another story, which was about a medic who came back. And even though he'd been incredibly eager to get into combat in the first place, he came back and was thinking about suicide. How common is that among the people you've talked to? It's pretty common. And it's unfortunately common because, you know, a lot of times and what the people, so I'm sorry, so this guy, his name is, his name is Marcus Freeman.

He was born in Brooklyn. He was actually in the Navy on 9-11. And he got out so he could be in the army. He just wanted to go to people. He was really like, and like to this day, he's still really willing to shoot people. He's just a gung-ho, gung-ho kind of guy. But, you know, he's older now. He's not 19 anymore. And when he, you know, so he got into the infantry and he got to fight and he said that was awesome, but he wanted to take it up a level and he became a medic. And it was in his time as a medic, there was this one incident where a school got blown up. He had to go in and deal with the casualties and the deaths in this school. And that weighed upon him more than anything. I mean, he's still very interested in, and was after that incident, still very interested. in hurting other fighters, but to see the collateral damage, as people might say. That was really hard for him. And what he came to discover was that he needed to find an outlet for it because he just didn't feel like, I mean, he's still in. He's still a headache. And he, after, you know,

telling his story, he kind of felt like he couldn't deal with, he couldn't deal with the, with the memories by himself anymore. But he was fortunate, you know, his. His wife is also an army medic, and she helped them through it, and they just went to therapy. And, you know, I know a lot of guys and girls are afraid that they're going to go and people are just going to give them a bunch of pills and send them on their way. And there's another thing that is, I think, a little bit more subtle. It's not a fear of weakness. I mean, that's what people say, but I don't know if it's a fear of weakness, but it is this concern. that you just have to try harder.

You're anxious or you're depressed, and if you just tried harder, you would be fine. And so I think a lot of people, I mean, I know this happens even in civilian life. People who have, who suffer from depression and anxiety all the time are like, well, I just have to be happier. You know, I just have to try harder.

And for so many of them, just having the talking is enough, you know, and just finding a way to make, like when you're in the army and you, or the military generally and you have orders every day and you have very specific purpose, losing that can be difficult. And so finding a way to imbue your life with a purpose that you absolutely believe in with your whole being again. It takes effort.

And sometimes it takes professional help. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to say, hey, have you thought of it this way? It's not about just getting yourself drugged out so that you're not dangerous. You know, and it's not about people worry, I think, about falling into the PTSD cliche and into this PTSD catch-all that, you know, many of the guys I've spoken with is like, it's overused, you know, I'm, I'm anxious, you know, I feel, you know, I'm diagnosed with PTSD, but it's always, it's also always worse for everybody else than it is for them. I'm working on a story right now about a guy who, uh, who lost his leg and, part of his foot and he eventually was given these, you know, wounded warrior

programs. But his friend made him apply for the house and his friend had no legs. And he's like, you know, they just gave me this house, you should apply. They're looking for people to give houses to. And this guy was a Marine. His name's Kenny Lyons. And he said, I can't. He's like, you're missing

both legs. You need a house. I still have a leg. You know? And so for them, they're always they always know that someone has it worse, and they feel a lot of times like they don't want to take resources that could be used for someone who has it worse. And so a lot of times resources just don't get used because there is always someone. That's one thing that they all seem to feel is that there's always someone who has it worse. And I think that kind of is another factor in guys and ladies getting help when they need it. What's the reaction?

and like from the veteran community to the show? Mostly very, very positive. I have a lot of people who will reach out and say that many of the guests now, the first couple of guests I got from different sources, it's not just dumping patriotism, but it's also not anti-war. So I'm kind of a historian by trade. I'm a journalist, and I think of that in terms of history. And I was always a huge fan of,

There's this guy's named Studs Terkel. And he did all of these great interviews. And he's just like, this is what people were saying. You know, and he kind of let the people speak for themselves. And that's what I try to do in the show. I'm like, this is what this person told me. This is why I think it's important. And since it's kind of got that middle road, it's not political at all.

And I've had guys call me back and say, hey, you know, I was worried that this was going to turn into some sort of political thing. And I'm so glad it didn't. By being a political, I think I can connect with more people. I think the show connects with a lot more people. And that's, I think, why it's got such a great response from both veterans and civilians alike. You know, they did this fun thing. Our top Democrat, I think they said was conservative men and liberal women are our two top most enthusiastic listeners. So that kind of, I think, gives you a sense of how unique a show this really is.

And it's due to them. I can say it because it's not due to me. It's just due to these people are just so honest and forthright and happy to tell their stories that it just connects. You know, we're just two people talking. Well, thanks very much, Tony. We really appreciate you taking us through all this. Yeah, thank you for coming on. Oh, it's been a blast.

Thanks so much for having. All right. So Tony's show is This is War and it's available from wherever you get your podcast. Thank you for listening to this week's show. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to hear from you. Leave us a review on iTunes, and you'll help others find the show. Our favorite review this week is from RN 1371. Fun and interesting, five stars, much better than attending Real War College.

Thank you, RN 1371. You can also get in touch with us at facebook.com slash war college podcast. Feel free to ask us questions, or if you have ideas, for new shows, we'd love to hear them. We'll be back next week.