Angry Planet - Drinking With the Russians Who Fled to Georgia

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

In an attempt to shore up its rapidly crumbling position in Ukraine, Moscow has partially mobilized the people. In response, many of those people are fleeing. But where can they go? Russia has spent the last 100 years bullying, invading, and killing its immediate neighbors. Places like Georgia are seeing a huge influx of Russian military aged males. How do the Georgians feel about this? It’s complicated.With us today to talk about this is James Jackson. Jackson is a freelance journalist in German and Central and Eastern Europe. He was in Tbilisi, the capitol of Georgia when Russians fleeing mobilization started to show up. And he’s here with us today to talk about it. It’s the subject of his latest in Time: Why a Fresh Russian Exodus to Georgia is So Polarizing.Here’s a link to the video Jackson describes in the show.Angry Planet has a substack! Join the Information War to get weekly insights into our angry planet and hear more conversations about a world in conflict.https://angryplanet.substack.com/subscribeYou can listen to Angry Planet on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. Our website is angryplanetpod.com. You can reach us on our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/angryplanetpodcast/; and on Twitter: @angryplanetpod.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. People live in a world and their own making. Frankly, that seems to be the problem. Welcome to Angry Planet. Hello, welcome to Angry Planet. I'm Matthew Galt. And I'm Jason Fields. In an attempt to shore up its rapidly crumbling position in Ukraine, Moscow has partially mobilized the Russian people. In response, many of those people are fleeing. But where can they go? Russia has spent the last hundred years bullying, invading, and killing its immediate neighbors. Places like Georgia are seeing a huge influx of Russian military-aged males. And how do the Georgians feel about this?

Well, it's complicated. With us today to talk about this is James Jackson. Jackson is a freelance journalist in Germany and Central and Eastern Europe. He was in the capital of Georgia recently when Russians were fleeing mobilization, and he's talked to quite a few of them as well as the local Georgians. He's here with us today to talk about it. It's the subject of his latest in time. Why a fresh Russian exodus to Georgia is so polarizing. Sir, thank you so much for coming under the show and talking with us about this.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me. So your question was, how do the Georgians feel about it? I would say they're not particularly happy, to be honest. So you've got to remember the context is very important here. Georgia, as of this moment, 20% of its territory is occupied by Russia. These are two breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South SETIA. So these are wars that have taken place since the fall of the Soviet Union.

And to varying degrees of legitimacy, I think it's fair to say that there are quite a few Abkhazians who did want independence and their struggle had gone on for a long time between Georgia and Amkazia throughout the Soviet Union. You can get into all kinds of details about the history there. But what it comes down to is Georgia has often felt like a play thing for Russia, perhaps less so than Ukraine because their policies towards Georgia by Russia were quite different. There was less Russification during the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire, if you want to go really back into the history.

But the feelings are not positive. Georgia is a very pro-Western country, especially the younger people. So the younger generation really wants to be able to. part of the European Union. A lot of them want to be part of NATO because it would also protect them from Russia. So there was a brief war in 2008 where Russia bombed parts of Georgia and seized parts of certain towns like Gori, where Stalin was born and helped to take away the and occupy the region that's known South Ossetia. So it's not just that. It's not just about history. Actually, if you speak to most Georgians now, they will say Russians are occupied.

us, don't come to a country as a refugee that you're also occupying, but they'll also say things like my rent has gone up by 30% and my salary hasn't gone up. And I have to say, I was first in Georgia about five years ago and it felt very different this time

just because of the huge amount of Russians who were already there before the mobilization by Putin. So there was already 40,000 there and then they announced the mobilization. A lot of People have gone through there, some to stay, some going through there to Turkey and Armenia.

But it's one of the only places with a land border that was easy to flee to. So what is that border like? So I should say that I didn't personally go to the border, but at the point, so straight after the announcement, there were cues which could be seen from space. So there were satellites, there was dozens of miles long cars, car queues were thousands of cars, and cars were thousands of cars. So, you know, Russians are quite used to driving long distances. And there's a lot of cities in south of Russia in this kind of north Caucasus area or not far from there. Grosny, for example. And so people, a lot of people would fly into those cities.

It was about 10,000 a day crossing the border at its peak, which is a lot more than usual. So it was chaotic. It was stressful. Someone described it to me as like an apocalyptic movie, you know? So I think it's fair to say when this mobilization was announced, a lot of people, it really hit home, the war for them, who had been living maybe more comfortable lives in Moscow. They realized, okay, this can affect me. It's not just something my country's doing.

It's something that could actually get me killed. A lot of people who I spoke to said that they were afraid of, you know, they didn't want to kill Ukrainians, et cetera. I mean, if you look at the Ukraine's battle prowess at the moment, I think they're probably more scared of being killed themselves, you know. So it was really, really chaotic, a lot, very bad hygiene, people stuck in in the queue for 30 hours, driving for 30 hours for days, spending a lot of money as well. So there's gangs at various different points asking for bribes, policemen asking for bribes. At a certain point, you weren't allowed to cross unless you had a vehicle. And so all of the nearby cities, they were selling bicycles and mopeds and anything like that for $1,000 U.S. dollars, which is a lot of money anywhere, but it's a lot of money in Russia and south of Russia. So a massive sense of desperation, I would say, to get across the border, to get away from where you can be drafted.

What's the makeup of the people that are coming in? Is it just military-aged males or are they bringing their families, women and children? So I think in Russia, military-aged male is a really broad category. It's not actually people like, you know, in their 30s or 20s or teenage years. One guy who I spoke to, he was early 20s, but he actually flew into Yerevan, but he was arranging for his parents, including his dad, who I think was 50, to flee because his dad had been in the army and they were pretty sure he was going to be called up and he had his whole family. So his brother who was in med school, they all just left their lives at a drop of a hat.

You know, and that's going to be terrifying. There were women and children as well. So one of the main things pointed out to me was that it was one of the most depressing things that people said was seeing children without food and bad hygienic facilities. So some quite ugly scenes there, a lot of desperation, human misery, probably nothing compared to what's happening in Ukraine. But I do think that, yeah, it's difficult for these people. It's been a difficult, it's been a very difficult few months. And I think it's going to be difficult. Being in exile from your country, it's not going to be easy.

There was already a bit of a community set up in Georgia when I was there. I was going to this Russian bar, Koshini. I went there a couple of times. People, yeah. Yeah. So I think Georgians were a little bit wary that some Russians are going to stay together. Russians also in the region have a bit of reputation for being arrogant. They expect to be treated well, or there's something I've come across in my reporting a number of times that of Russians see themselves as much victims of the war as Ukrainians.

Ukrainians don't like that. Also, I don't think Georgians like that. They have a lot of solidarity with Ukrainians as victims of Russian aggression themselves. And like maybe some begrudging acceptance. I think one thing I noticed was when I spoke to Georgians, their actual hostility towards individual Russians was quite soft. I said, you know, but they are being drafted. They said, well, yeah, I know.

I don't like them, but I know. They would say things like, okay, if they're really a dissident, I understand, but if they're just coming to escape sanctions, that was something that came up a lot. If they're just coming to escape sanctions, I'm not into it. The thing is a lot of Russians work in international companies that were no longer able to trade in Moscow and in Russia. So people did move who didn't necessarily have strong political feelings against the war, both before the mobilization afterwards. This would be more in relation to people moving before. Are people looking to stay?

Is it obvious, like whether they're going to stay in Georgia for a while or they are hoping to get back home real soon? I don't think anyone's expected to go home anytime soon. Whether they're staying in Georgia or not is anybody's guess. I would say a lot of them were going through Georgia because I have spoken to one guy who was in Georgia previously. He didn't like the reception he got from the locals. He called it Russophobic. He then moved on to Turkey, if I remember rightly.

But there are countries which are more welcoming to Russians than Georgia. I think Turkey and Armenia would be two of those. Turkey is also a lot bigger. So there's quite a big community of Russians in Antalya, which is a coastal city. It's always been a bit of a holiday destination for Russians. So I've actually got a friend who's out there. She said before the mobilization, she had more friends in Armenia than in Georgia. It's also Georgia has become quite expensive, partly through Russians going there,

but also it's quite developed and Europeanized, if you want to put it that way. So I don't think everyone's going to stay in Georgia, because there's no route. It really feels very full when you're there. And I was there, you know, just before even the whole peak, before everyone had arrived. So the streets are completely full. There's traffic jams all over the place. And the metro is completely packed.

So you see pictures of the border queues, which, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people. And you see pictures of Tbilisi, the capital of Georgia's metro. It looks the same. Really, it's, it's, you feel a difference there. And I don't think that's something that locals can put up with forever. I also don't think that the new arrivals want to necessarily be in such a grand place where they're not particularly welcome and where it's costing them a fair bit of money. Although I have to say, Deucis is a really amazing city and Georgians are amazing people.

Is there a formal intake process at the border? Like, are Russians getting refugee? Like, is there such a thing as refugee status? And how are guards making a determination, but who comes in and who goes? So to answer your first question first, when you cross through to Georgia, Russians don't actually need a visa. So it's one of the visa-free areas for them. There's, that also includes places like Azerbaijan and Armenia. So there's a lot of my reporting through these telegrams.

One telegram group about the border when I, joined actually just before the mobilization. It went up from 60,000 people, which is still quite a lot, to 150,000, 200,000 people in the space of a week. So people really desperate looking for information. A lot of people are asking, do I need my passport? To get to Yerevan, to get to Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan, you do not because it's part of a sort of region. I think CTSA, I could be wrong on that one. And yeah, so people would be able to get in quite easily, They don't need refugee status. I think this is one of the things attracting them to the Caucasus,

the South Caucasus, rather than Eastern Europe, the Baltics, where you can cross, but it's a bit more arduous. There's tourist visas are given for a certain amount of time, whereas with this you can kind of cross. In terms of who's being accepted and who's being turned away, there's some interesting allegations there. One person I spoke to who was himself a North Caucasian, so he was Englishetian

it's like a Muslim majority kind of yeah North Caucasian ethnic group he said when he was crossing the border the Georgian border police was stopping all of the Caucasian in the sense of North Caucasian groups

not Caucasian in the sense of white it gets a little bit confusing that bit of a misnomer I think so he one thing that an MP also told me a former MP Georgi Kandilaki, he told me that, so this might go on to a bit of a can of worms, but there's a lot of allegations that the Georgian Dream government is very close to Moscow, despite ruling in a country where people really don't like Russia and they want to be part of the EU.

So the accusation is that they're subtly close to Moscow and that they work, their security services work together and that there have been cases of democratic activists, This is before the mobilization being thrown across the border and being rejected. And my source also said that people from the North Caucasus were being rejected after hours of intimidation, interrogation, whereas ethnic Russians and white Russians were getting through. All right, angry, plaintiff, plaintiff, listeners. We're in a pause there for a break. We'll be right back after this.

All right, thank you for sticking around. Angry Planet listeners, we are back on with James Jackson talking about the Russians in Georgia. Right. the government of Georgia has to walk this fine line because the people and possibly even themselves don't particularly like Moscow, but they're right next door, right? And they have invaded, they, you know, they would say that they're being occupied right now. Currently, 20% of the country is, correct? So it's this bizarre, everybody around Russia is being affected by this, right? Not just because, there's suddenly a stream of people fleeing mobilization going into the country, but also because they still have to deal with Russia every day. So it must be a strange tight rope to walk. Definitely. And it's not just political. It's also economical. So the question is, do they want to have closer ties with the West? Yes, they do, including economically. But, you know, changing

your whole export market. I want to understand they export a lot of their goods in particular while into Russia. So that's not something you can change overnight. There is also the fear of another invasion. Right now, I think that's quite unlikely, because I don't think Russia can spare the troops. But, you know, there's this narrative that the Russian-Georgian war was kind of provoked by the previous government, which was much more Western-facing, for the United National Movement, led by Mikhail Saakashvili. And, you know, I couldn't say, I wouldn't want to say whether they caused the war or not, but they were certainly more provocative. They were more anti-Russian. And so because of the war, even though not that many people died, it was still a very traumatic experience for Georgia.

And so a lot of people are frankly scared. Well, I remember when that war happened. It was the first time that I recall somebody's internet being shut down before an invasion. And it was over very rapidly. It was at this time where it seemed like the Russian military was this powerhouse. It played into this myth-making that they really took advantage of in the years afterwards. So I can see like even 14 years on, it still kind of resonates in the imagination of the public, right? Absolutely.

You're right. I think it was actually the first ever war where cyber attacks and conventional attacks were taking place at the same time. So that brought a whole new dimension to it. It was, I mean, Georgia really didn't put up much of a fight. They didn't really, they couldn't really because it's quite a small country, not particularly well-armed military. They also didn't really ask for help from the West. There was some help, interestingly, from some of the same countries, which are the most

vociferous in support for Ukraine now. So the Baltic states and Poland, actually the now deceased president, Lech Kaczynski, who died in a plane crash in Russia, the twin of Europe. Eraswav Kaczynski, who's the leader of the ruling party of Poland, he went out there and he warned, you know, if we let this happen in Georgia, then Ukraine is next and then Poland and then the Baltics. So quite a prophetic warning, I think, sadly, and quite interesting to see who steps up and who will stand up. So all of these presidents, they visited Georgia at that time. But as you said, it was a very quick war. Russia mostly just fired a lot of missiles.

use their air superiority, which they haven't been able to use in Ukraine for a number of reasons. Yeah, all those countries between Germany and Russia have a very clear memory of the last hundred years and have been, I would say, taking steps to attempt to make sure that something like that never happens again, right? As much as they can, yeah. As much as they can. That's what people describe in Poland. I also spend a lot of time in Poland. People call it the curse of geography.

So, you know, you're between these two empires, Germany and Russia, and Poland, you know, doesn't have any natural defenses. So there's no mountains. There's no big rivers that would act as that. So, yeah. Are the Georgians at all worried that there are spies among the Russians who are coming in, pouring in? That's a good question. There definitely have been spies in the past, although I think they are, more interested in spying on their fellow Russians.

So it has come out quite recently that the FSB, you know, one of the much feared security services has been sending people. There was an FSB agent who confessed to having gone to Georgia to spy on emigres. So it's been like a hub for a little while, at least since the start of the war, if not a little bit longer. So I don't think ordinary Georgians are worried about being spied on by Russia because Georgia isn't so much the focus. But I think there's definitely, you know, pre-mobilization.

There was some paranoia about who you could be speaking to. I think Russian society, this is one thing about authoritarianism or totalitarianism. If you want to take it that far, you never know who to trust. So there's this one case of this influence, Senya Sochak. Her father was actually very close to Putin. He was the mayor of St. Petersburg while Putin was like his deputy. And she's kind of portrayed herself as a liberal opposition figure. But, and she ran against Putin in the last presidential election.

But you can't really do that and not get locked up unless you're on the same side as Putin, right? Otherwise, she would be in jail with Navalny. I mean, her father did die in fight strange circumstances. but it's also clear that, you know, she says she's against, she wouldn't say the war, but she'll say I'm against all violence, you know, I'm against suffering and never call out Putin. So in Russia they call it controlled opposition. I'd say it's kind of, this is kind of my asthma of where you're not sure who to trust,

including people who are claiming to be on your side. But I do also think just the absolute force and volume of the mobilized. has meant that all went out the window a little bit because the quantities of people fleeing were just so big. And not just to Georgia. Georgia got a lot of attention, rightfully so, but also Kazakhstan, absolutely huge numbers of people are fleeing there. And, you know, maybe there's some FSB people to keep tabs on them, but also I think Russia's not exactly drowning in manpower. Their security services aren't drowning in manpower right now. They've got bigger fish to fry than worrying about what the Georgians are doing, absolutely, let alone what the

Kazakhs are doing. I mean, you would hope so. Like, they also have the whole security apparatus to worry about. And then, of course, Ukraine. You know, I've just figured this out. The whole idea is to send as many Russians as possible to these surrounding countries and then invade those countries to protect those Russian minorities. I like the way you think. Yeah, they've become Russian minorities by accident. I suppose you could say, I saw a story recently from the Reuters correspondent in Kazakhstan. I think it was Kazakhstan.

And she talked to a family where they had fled 100 years ago and then new arrivals, distant relatives that families had fled. So, you know, political turmoil and refuge from that within Russia are nothing new. I think this is probably the biggest scale, but one thing I talked about in my article is the difference between how you imagine the white Russian emigreys of the 1920s, of the, you know, Russian Civil War era, these kind of bearded aristocrats in fur hats with names like, you know, Vladislav, the butcher of the Circassians, these kind of aristocratic figures. And then actually what you get now is you get young, kind of.

of alternative people with tattoos, with dyed hair, baggy jeans, like the kind of people I would expect to see on TikTok, you know, smoking joints, this big carpet on the wall, and they're banging out like Russian songs, folk songs instead of techno. But really, really the vibe was so far away from what you imagine in Russian emigrate to be a political emigre when you think back to the smoke-filling cafes of Paris or whatever. Can you talk about what the smoke-filled cafes of Georgia, or a little bit like, you know, you said that coming into Georgia, you don't necessarily need a visa, but there are some bars where paperwork is required. Yes, this is right. So I was just talking about Kashini bar. That was one set up by Russians.

Interestingly, I think this is also part of the political emigray experience. This is what a young journalist told me, Philip Smyrnov, his name was. And he told me that this bar, I don't like this bar because they were set up by libertarians and he's a leftist. So when we were in Russia we didn't really care about politics because we were all just opposed to the regime but now now we're abroad.

It starts to matter a little bit. But then within Georgia there's also that divides within the Russian community and then there's also the Georgian community who are not sure if they want to let in Russians at all. So this bar that I went to they check everyone

or everyone European looking, let's say, passports on entry, the bounces, and if you have a Russian passport, you have to scan a QR code. And on that QR code, there's a kind of a shopping, an ideological shopping list of you have to say Slavokhryani,

you have to say, I didn't vote for Putin. You have to say you're not going to speak Russian in there. You have to say that 20% of Georgia is occupied by Russia, the Abkhazia is Georgia, and it really goes on and on and on. And this says, you know, leave this one free just to check if people are actually reading.

And this is where, Sena Chops up the influencer slash controlled opposition person I spoke about she was she refused to sign up there and then she posted on her Instagram about it and I mentioned that in the article

but actually just in the last couple of days I've seen the video of her being confronted by the owner on Instagram and she's there speaking Russian he's a Georgian guy and who's speaking English so the politics of that's quite interesting as well as a lot of Georgians grew up learning Russian and then

you decided, no, no, thank you. So you can kind of see the imperial arrogance that I don't think, yeah, I think Dardana is quite a good example of where they're welcome if they abide by certain rules. And I don't think anyone can blame the Georgians from that. Do you really want Putin supporters in your bar? At least vocal Putin supporters, right? Can you tell us a little bit more about the economic impacts of all of this? I was especially interested in the taxi driver that you spoke with. Right. So, of course, I've mentioned a few of the losers.

So normal Georgians who have their right, their rent has gone up a lot, normal costs have gone up a lot. But of course, there are winners as well. So landlords would be winners here because they can get more money out of the Muscovite middle class. And in this great frenzy, there was also this taxi driver who I spoke to, whose name was interestingly, Dmitri. So he had a kind of Russian, Ukraine kind of name, but he spoke for it in Georgia and he said he was born in Georgia. And I asked him, you know, what do you think of the Russians? And he said, I would kill them if I could, but only after I get their money, I got the sense he was only half joking. Really, I was shocked by that.

I expected, you know, maybe some rude words, but I didn't expect him to say that. You can always kill them and then take their money. Right. Yeah. But he's got a different style. I think he could make more money if he didn't kill anyone. So he was getting like a hundred bucks a ride, which is, if he gets four people in there, that's a monthly salary in Georgia.

So, you know, yeah. And it's actually, Georgia's not a very big country. So he could be doing that journey in like an hour and a half, I guess. Yeah. How, all right, doing predictions for this kind of thing as a Mug's game, right? it's always foolish. But what do you think is going to happen here in Georgia specifically? I mean,

I think we've seen the drama. I don't think we're going to see necessarily anything big there for a little while. I think there are going to be some flare-ups because some of the people are going to realize they're not welcome. And some of them aren't going to feel too good about that. So we have seen it before. People getting annoyed about like being treated like a citizen when they actually expect the red carpet. And I think that's kind of what Russians expect a little bit, at least some of them. I think there are some who, yeah, so this Phillips Manov guy who I spoke to,

he has started to acclimatize and become a bit more of like an international expat. He didn't like seeing Russian written in, on, on, on, he doesn't like seeing Russian script written in public places. Interestingly, so he said he went to Yerevan and they have an Armenian script and in Russian scripties and like that. But I don't think anyone's going back to Russia. I don't know how many are staying in Georgia.

I don't think that, I don't think most of them are going to stay in Georgia. I think Turkey has more room to take people in. It's much, much, much bigger country. So, and it's cheaper. The currency is quite weak. So I

think actually a lot of them will, the newer arrivals will end up in Turkey. maybe Armenia, but then Armenia is having its own conflicts. So do they want to jump out of the fire and into like a stove, you know, a camp stove? Maybe not. Sir, thank you so much for coming on to Angry Planet and walking us through this. The article is at time. It's why a fresh Russian exodus to Georgia is so polarizing.

James Jackson, thank you so much for coming on. What else do you have in the works? So right now I'm in Belgrade. I was in Bosnia a few days ago and they just had an election. So I'm writing something up on that. And I'm trying to put together a piece. I was actually in Russia, in Georgia, reporting on a different piece, but then the mobilization happened and I had to focus on that. Hoping to get it out at some point about the rise of Stalin as a national figure in Georgia,

which is also influenced by Russia. So some more Russia-Georgian stuff. also my piece another thing I'm trying to put together is how the Ukraine war is reopening old wounds in the Balkans. So a lot of similarities

in Bosnia. A lot of the people I spoke to felt like this was kind of giving them trauma flashbacks in a way and making them realize how fragile piece is. But the difference is Bosnia wasn't supported by the West at all, whereas Ukraine has been. So really interesting. If I can just

say one thing quickly. There was the Bill Clinton tapes. So one guy, a friend of Bill Clinton's, followed him around. And it's pretty clear from those tapes that the reason that no one got involved in Bosnia, there was an arms embargo. The Serbs were heavily armed. The Bosnians had literally nothing. And the arms embargo allowed the Serbs to just massacre them. And one of the reasons why the arms embargo was kept up was because off the record, according to high rank, French and British officials, they were Muslims. And re-Christianizing Europe was on the agenda. All of that sounds incredibly fascinating.

And we didn't even touch on Stalin, you know, being from Georgia. And there's a whole connection there with like nationalist authoritarianism, being kind of born on the fringes of empire and coming home. And I would love to talk about all of that with you another time. And also the Balkans, I've been wanting to do an episode on the Balkans for a while. I remember when the war in Ukraine started, everyone was saying this is the biggest war in Europe since World War II. And I was always like, well, are we forgetting something? Well, a lot of people say it's the only one, and they're definitely forgetting something.

Right. Biggest is a tough one because yes, more people died in Bosnia, but we haven't finished the war in Ukraine yet, right? It's very true. It's a much bigger country. So I understand why people say that. it's a fascinating region and one thing that stands out for me is you know Bosnia it's it's divided into two political entities the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the republica serbska so actually the republica serbska are basically in the analogy they're the Russian

breakway secessionists that you would get in the dombas but they actually got their goals more or less they managed to have a separate political entity with their own president with some, and we just, we gave them that as a prize for genocide. So I think that's a really interesting kind of unsettled conflict here in Europe that a number of people told me could flare up again. Let's hope it doesn't. But it seems like a very, in my opinion, unjust peace that we have at the moment. Well, we would love to have you back on the show to talk about any and all of that, sir.

Thank you so much for coming up. Thanks for having me, guys. That's all for this week. Angry Planet listeners, as always, Angry Planet is me, Matthew Galt, Jason. Fields and Kevin O'Dell was created by myself and Jason Fields. If you like us, if you really like us, please give us $9 a month, your hard-earned money on angryplanet.substack.com or angryplanetpod.com. You get bonus episodes.

You get early versions commercial free of the mainline episodes and a couple posts that we do infrequently that are totally worth it if you go back and look at the old ones. We will be back again next week with another conversation about conflict on an angry planet. We're going to be looking at extremism in the Pacific Northwest. Some of the interesting things going on up there. We're going to be talking with an excellent reporter from one of the last Alt Weekly's left in the country. Stick around for that. See it next Tuesday. If you're subscribed to the substack.