Angry Planet - In North Korea, kids learn to love the bomb - and Minnie Mouse

Episode Date: January 8, 2016

North Korea is the most mysterious and oppressive regime on earth. Few journalists penetrate Pyongyang and fewer still stay long enough to understand the country and its people. Jean Lee is one of those determined few. And she’s seen some strange stuff.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast? Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. The opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the participants, not of Reuters' News. I've had numerous friends tell me that they were educated to believe that North Koreans had horns. And I would just think, you know, they're the same people as you. What would make you think that they have for him?

North Korea said it was a hydrogen bomb. The rest of the world isn't so sure. But whatever kind of nuclear device it was, the test carried out deep below ground was another reminder that Kim Jong-un and his regime won't be ignored. This week on War College, we're talking about what's really going on inside North Korea. And we're talking with Gene Lee, one of the few people who can legitimately call themselves an expert in this.

subject. You're listening to War College, a weekly discussion of a world in conflict focusing on the stories behind the front lines. Here's your host, Jason Fields. Hello and welcome to War College. I'm Reuters' opinion editor Jason Fields. And I'm Matthew Galt, contributing editor at War is Boring. Today we're talking to Gene Lee. She's a North Korea expert and professor at Yonsei University in Seoul. In 2012, Lee helped establish the Associated Press Bureau in Pyongyang, North Korea's capital. So thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. So I think we got sort of overtaken by the news, even though we'd scheduled this interview before to talk more generally, but reports that North Korea had detonated

what they're claiming was a hydrogen bomb. They've done three tests before, I believe, with standard nuclear weapons, right? They had tested three atomic bombs previously, so they're claiming that this one was a hydrogen bomb, which would be far more powerful than the three previous devices. Do you mind just sort of letting us know, do you believe that that's true? Are people considering this really is a hydrogen bomb? Yeah, there's been a lot of skepticism, and we're still waiting to get the results of the radioactivity tests. So what happens is North Korea hasn't allowed international nuclear inspectors into the country for years, which frankly terrifies me to think that they're developing a nuclear program without anyone checking to make sure that there's nuclear

security. But because of that, what they do is test the air. So apparently there were people on the roof of the U.S. Embassy here in Seoul gathering samples, and as well, the U.S. sent a jet to gather samples in the air. So Japan and Russia and China will also be. gathering samples. There's a very small window of time for them to be able to capture that, but they would be able to test the radioactivity. They're not always able to catch it. I think with the last test, they weren't able to determine conclusively whether North Korea had used highly enriched uranium, which is what they had claimed. I think, though, the one thing that they can figure out is the yield. And experts say that hydrogen bombs have a certain yield,

and this one does not have that type of a yield. So it seems to be that there's a lot of skepticism about whether it really was a successful hydrogen bomb test as the North Koreans claim. Gene, I have a question for you. Why do they want a nuclear weapon? What's the purpose of building one for them? So the North Koreans are telling their people,

and they claim, as they did in the announcement on Wednesday, that the reason that they need nuclear weapons, weapons is to protect themselves against the U.S. So one of the things I constantly have to point out is that the Korean War never technically ended. So they signed an armistice in 1953 to end the fighting, but the peninsula is technically still in a state of war. And that means, you know, the U.S. on one side, and the U.N. on one side, and the North Koreans and the Chinese on the other. So, you know, North Korea claims that the 28,500 U.S. troops on South Korean soil are an occupation, that they consider that an occupation.

And frankly, you know, there are quite a number of joint U.S. South Korean military exercises that happen every year, and those are always a time when North Korea gets, that really ruffles their feathers. Was it last year the year before, the U.S. did fly some B-52 bombers over the skies as well. They do send some of their hardware to show the North Koreans that they are here to defend the South Koreans. So there is a war situation. It's not an active war situation, but I do have to remind people that they never signed a peace treaty, and that's what the North Koreans want is a peace treaty.

the nuclear weapons are their big bargaining chip. They are going to use these weapons to try to force the Americans into signing a peace treaty. That's the long-term plan. The short-term plan, as you've probably heard, is to extract concessions. So these are a bargaining chip that they can bring to the negotiating table, try to get food aid and fuel and other concessions. When you talk about a peace treaty, actually, I'm very curious. what kind of peace treaty are they looking for that, you know, the U.S. hasn't been able to agree to one in more than 60 years now?

They must sort of have some demands that nobody else wants to meet. Well, they're at a bit of a standoff because the U.S. point of view is that they've got to have guarantees on denuclearization. And North Korea's point of view is we're not giving these up until you sign a peace treaty. So it's a little bit of a standoff on that front. The big thing for Kim Jong-un, the current leader, is that the reunification of the Korean Peninsula, a peace treaty, was the one big thing that his grandfather, the founder of North Korea, Kim Il-sung,

wanted to accomplish before he died and did not accomplish. So that's kind of been one of the things that he wants to make a hallmark of his leadership. He wants to reach that goal, taking up his grandfather's causes, but in a much more modern way. For him, the modern way means nuclear weapons. And he actually inherited a program, though, that was, am I right that he was under his father's watch, Kim Jong-il, that the first test actually happened? Exactly. That was 2006. The first test was in 2006, and this was actually at a time when negotiations were underway on the nuclear program. So there was a process.

called the six-party process, six countries coming together to try to find a way to dismantle North Korea's nuclear programs. So there's still a lot of discussion about bringing the six-party talks back into play. But critics will point out that the six-party talks accomplished very little. And in fact, throughout that whole process, North Korea is continuing to build nuclear weapons. So I guess it's interesting to me because I feel like What I've always read was that the effort to reach peace treaty, an actual cessation to the war, was insincere on North Korea's part, that they were using the talks to stall and or gain access to aid. But, I mean, what you're saying is actually very different. Well, I'm telling you, I'm just giving you the broad brushstrokes in terms of what's really happening behind the scenes is a whole other man.

the North Koreans may have a stance that they're taking publicly and that they're telling their people what's actually motivating them might be completely different. One of the things that concerns the North Koreans is they want their regime and their way of life to continue. And frankly, in any kind of reunification or peace treaty scenario, I'm not so sure that that's possible. So in terms of reunification, one of the interesting things that I learned when I was there in North Korea was their version.

or their vision of how this would happen, which is a two-state federation. And they use the Yugoslav Federation as an example. But a two-state federation, two political systems under one country, and without any U.S. presence on Korean soil. Now whether that is actually possible, it is up for debate. Certainly don't think that that's how the South Koreans envision it. So reunification is one of those things, to be honest, who doesn't want peace? on the Korean Peninsula.

But it's a loaded question. I think how people envision this happening is a completely different matter when it comes to the South Koreans, when it comes to the North Koreans, when it comes to the Americans. To me, this also brings up the hatred that North Koreans

allegedly feel towards the South. Right before we started recording, you talked about something that I thought was fascinating, which is that In kindergarten, or the equivalent of kindergarten, kids are actually, I don't want to use words like indoctrinated. That sounds too much like something out of the Cold War, but kids are actually taught about the United States, but not in a very friendly way. So that was one of the things that I discovered when I went to visit a kindergarten, and I was surprised to learn that that kind of education, the anti-American education, happens so early, as early as kindergarten.

Now, it's a very specific, it's not all Americans, so they're talking about American soldiers. So kids are taught, it's a very militaristic society, and they are taught from an early age to play these very militaristic games. To be honest, I mean, I grew up in the Cold War, and I do remember playing games where we would be, it was us against the Soviets. And I would be really angry if I had to be the Soviet. So these kind of Cold War games are part of my childhood as well, but they were certainly, were not as violent. That said, the South Koreans, my South Korean friends, who are roughly my age, grew up with extreme propaganda on their side as well. And they, I've had numerous friends tell me that they were educated to believe that North Koreans had horns. And I would just think,

you know, they're the same people as you, the same people as us. What would make you think that they have horns? But, you know, very similarly, they would have drawing competitions in South Korea and the wind, you know, judged according to how hateful the drawings were toward the North Koreans. One of the interesting things that I discovered is that the North Koreans do not hate the South Koreans. They see the South Koreans as their brethren. On the other hand, the South Koreans are raised to hate the North Koreans. In terms of the Americans, yeah, I mean, you know, North Koreans children, the North Korean children are fascinated anytime they see a foreigner, just like most children are in any part of the world. They don't really.

see them as Americans? That said, the first time a North Korean sees an American, it's pretty shocking for them. So, and that's true in any country. But the children will use any opportunity to practice their English. English is the most popular foreign language in North Korea. Used to be Russian, and then it was Chinese, and right now it's English. And that, to me, was really interesting. And they are generally learning American English. I've got a question about this, and this may be too specific. Do they talk about the USS Pueblo and the Hatchet incident? Do they teach these kinds of things?

Is there a field trip to the Victoria's War Museum for kids growing up? A visit to the museum is definitely part of it. So there's a period in the first part of the year leading up to the war and a green war anniversary is June and July. So July 27th is Armistice Day, which they call Victory Day, because they consider an armistice to have been a victory. So a field trip to the Pueblo is definitely on the itinerary. And it is very prominently docked outside the War Museum.

And I have been on that ship a couple times. It's eerie. It's an eerie experience. You see the bullet holes. You can still see the bullet holes when you go in. All the books that they had with them, the logs. It's a strange experience as an American to be on a captured spy ship. And as you know, it's never been decommissioned as far as I know.

Right. Yeah, it's still considered active and captured. Yeah, yeah. And so it's a bit definitely have a funny feeling being on that ship in North Korea as an American. Can I ask, when did the Pueblo incident happen? I mean, how long ago was this that the North Greens captured this? ship. Yeah, so that was 1960.

Yeah, 1968. I think. Yeah, 1966. And I believe, exactly, 1968. So still in the height of the Cold War, frankly, and it's very interesting because they captured the ship and the North Queens were actually very, I think, legitimately concerned

that there would be a counterattack by the U.S. And at the time, I mentioned this in a story that I wrote, I believe, if my memory serves me right. I believe they warned the foreign embassies that they might want to evacuate if they were worried that a war was imminent. The Americans were held for something like, you know, now I'm just recalling this off of the top of my head, but I believe it was 11 months before they signed a confession and were released. So, yeah, no, that makes it even more remarkable

how long it's been sitting there. And Matt, the idea of the idea of that it's actually still commissioned. It says a lot, I think. If you go back into my Instagram feed, I did post some video and photos from the ship. I just, you know, there are so many times in North Korea when you're there as an American and you just stop in your tracks and realize you're an enemy territory. And it's something that's really important for any American to realize. This is not any other vacation destination.

This is a place where the war has never been resolved. And as an American, you are in enemy territory. And there are moments when you remember that. And certainly being on that ship is a moment that really sent chills up my spine. So then why is it that they're learning American English? What use do they think they're going to put it to? Well, I think for them, they do learn. They do specialize in learning all the languages, including those of their enemies.

And so perhaps there is a nefarious element to this. But I just think that they see that as the most useful language to be learning. I mean, who wouldn't? But that's the, no, I just do think that they see it as the most useful language to be learning at this point in time. So it's interesting, the English language programming that they show on one of the state channels, as I've mentioned in some of my reporting is they show Disney cartoons. So they are definitely learning. They do not show any American films on state TV in North Korea aside from Disney cartoons.

And to be honest, you can learn a lot from a Disney cartoon. Really? Because I think of them as actually they're the least subversive cartoons that the U.S. ever produced. To my mind, you know. I mean, Warner Brothers actually. they were all pretty subversive to me, making fun of a rationing during World War II and, you know, even B50,

sorry, not B-52s, but other World War II bombers. I remember there were a few episodes where they were really making fun of them. Well, I think it's that they're not subversive that kind of gives those Disney cartoons their power, right? That's just kind of pure American culture piped in. Exactly, and that's why they allow it. And also, they're cartoons, it's animation.

so it's not real. The only Western movie that I've seen broadcast in North Korea has been like Beckham, and that was actually a big deal when they aired that. That took a lot of negotiation by the British embassy. The British government is very interesting because they've got embassies in Seoul and Pyongyang, so they do have diplomatic relations,

and so they are able to do some very interesting things. But that's the only Western movie. Of course, when you're there, you see, I see Chinese movies, Russian movies. I've seen Nazi German movies, which really shocked me. And you'll see Eastern European films, but you will not generally see Western European or South Korean films on state TV, aside of the Disney cartoon.

So actually, speaking in the Disney stuff, I seem to remember some photographs, and I'm sure they were AP photographs, of sort of a Disney world that was. was fairly recently built in near or in Pyongyang. Is that right? I mean, it's an amusement park with what looked like Disney characters, at least from the photo.

Disney characters are really popular. I mean, the amusement parks are something of a hallmark of Kim Jong-un's regime because he's really built his reputation on trying to give the people these leisure activities, so raising their standard of living. But Disney characters are really popular. There was a concert that the Morambong band, which is Kim Jong-un's favorite girl band, they were on stage with, you know, there's like the theme to Rocky and Disney characters prancing around. You know, I actually had our bureau in Los Angeles check with Disney to see if they had received the copyright,

the North Koreans, and they said definitely not. But they, you know, they love these characters. they don't know, I will often ask a North Korean child, when I see them with Mickey or Minnie on, usually it's Minnie. I'll ask them if they know who that is, and do they know it's American? They have no idea. They have no idea that these characters are American. I mean, I had a weird experience of having to explain who Snoopy was after seeing Snoopy. How do you explain who Snoopy is? Strangest thing.

But, you know, to them, these are just adorable figure. So it's fun for me to always point out when things are American, just to freak them out. What was off limits for you? What couldn't you cover or talk about? Was it very explicit or was it kind of something that was kind of negotiated and known beforehand? What were the challenges around that? You know, there were a couple things that I requested. I did request you repeatedly to go to the nuclear site, which I never was able to visit. And I did request to go to a prison or a, you know, a camp of some sort. And to be honest, in my career, I've had to apply for permission, request permission to attend camps, or sorry, not camps, but prisons.

And it's not an easy process, whether you're in America, you know, I'm sure I never covered Guantanamo, but, you know, it's a process that you have to go through. And I never, with North Korea, it's just a hundred times tougher. So there's certainly more. places that I just never got the permission to visit. And so that's not to say that that was ever expressly listed as being off limits, but I just was not, my requests were not granted. So when you talk about North Korea, you really have to talk about China because I read this in an article you recently wrote as well. I think I'd heard it before, that the relationship is lips and teeth, where is, I don't know which is which, I have to tell you, which is that North Korea is the lips or the teeth,

but I mean, it's enough to say that it's supposed to be a very close relationship between the two countries. Could you describe the way you see it, what you have seen? I would say it's a complicated relationship, and of course the North Koreans owe a lot to the Chinese because during the Korean War, the American-led United Nations forces were pretty convinced, convince that they had this whole thing wrapped up and they were going to be back home in time for Thanksgiving in 1950. And the Chinese got antsy. The idea of having Americans up on their border at the Yalu River was just too much. And they poured troops into that battle. And that turned things around. So the North Koreans owe a lot to the Chinese. I mean, the Chinese have

their own agenda. It's not that they necessarily love the North Koreans. They don't want. want the Americans up on their border. So they have always seen the North Koreans as this kind of buffer zone. They've always used the North Koreans to a certain degree as a buffer zone. And to a certain degree, that's what's happening now. They're trying to maintain enough of a relationship to keep the status quo, but not quite enough to really show that there's a strong relationship. It's really just a relationship out of necessity. And, you know, we're seeing, certainly seeing signs. coming to the fore the complicated nature of that relationship. I think as I wrote about in foreign policy, I was fascinated by this whole band situation. So Kim Jong-un's band was set to

perform a couple weeks ago, so it was mid-December in Beijing. They are a huge deal in North Korea. They are his personal band. So I see them as his personal envoys. And for them to just pick up and leave a couple hours before their performance. It may not seem like such a big thing, but, you know, in the Western context, but in terms of what that means diplomatically between China and North Korea, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. That is a huge snub. And it would, you know, for Kim Jong-un's band to pick up and leave like that, it had to have been something that they just couldn't resolve. So what that reveals is the communication is not that great. The understanding of the two cultures is not that great.

I think it's worrisome for the region because the understanding or the belief is that China is the one country that has some sway over North Korea. So if even China doesn't have that sway, then who does? The North Koreans did not inform the Chinese as far as I know that they were going to carry out

a nuclear test. In the past, they have at times given them a heads up. So that's a snob as well. I don't know how much money that China makes out of North Korea, but it seems like from everything I've read, that North Korea essentially couldn't exist without China. You know, I think I had these figures in my foreign policy piece, but I don't remember them off the top of my head, but it's a huge chunk. North Korea's trade, a huge chunk of it is with Chinese companies. So that's a very interesting dynamic.

North Korea is just pushing the envelope here because they do rely on China. That's a huge border and a lot of things that they need for survival come across that border, but they're pushing the envelope. They also get a large amount of their energy resources from China, correct? Their gas and oil. They do get some of that, but it goes back and forth. China imports quite a bit of coal from North Korea. So it is an interesting relationship.

and I think they'll be dangerous to overestimate how good that relationship is. It's a complicated relationship. And there's certainly no love loss between them culturally, vastly different cultures and certainly not a lot of love between those two cultures. So I was wondering if now that Russia has taken a turn towards one party state or one man state even, have relations changed at all with North Korea? Do you know if, I mean, are there strengthening ties or? I'm not so sure.

I mean, we're certainly seeing Russia trying to play a role in dealing with North Korea, but not as engaged as China was in terms of trade and diplomacy, but certainly what North Korea is doing is kind of playing the two Russia and China off each other. So if things are going really well with the Chinese, they'll snub the Russians. things are going really well with the Russians, they'll snub the Chinese, or maybe I'm phrasing it inaccurately. When things go really wrong with the Chinese, they turn to the Russians, vice versa. So I wouldn't be surprised if now that things are a bit rough with the Chinese, so we might see the North Koreans reach out a bit more to the Russians. But, you know, they have a long history

with the Russians, and so that tradition, that kind of traditional relationship is always there. It just was not as, Soviets really kind of withdraw. after that initial division of the peninsula and didn't have an investment, for example, in the Korean War the way the Chinese did. So it's a little bit different relationship. It's very interesting though. Culturally, the North Koreans got a lot from the Soviets. The way that they used to pay for things, there are certain things in their system that do come from the Soviets. So you still see a lot of kind of Soviet or Russian influence in North Korean culture. And that's always interesting for me.

I don't have a Soviet or a Russian background. So it's always interesting when somebody with a Russian or Soviet background points that out. So we can see the different influences, certainly different from, say, South Korea, which has a very strong American influence. I think where I'd like to, I think, make sense to sort of wrap this up, is to you're one of the few people who was able to get out there on Twitter before this latest nuclear test and warn people that something was coming. What was your phrasing?

I think it's something like the North Koreans are going out of the way to cause friction and I feel a provocation coming on or something like that, which really at that moment I did feel it's always a bold thing as a North Korean observer to make any kind of prediction, really. Something that experienced North Korea observers know not to do. And yet I did it. I felt strongly enough that this is going to happen that I'm. I did it. So I'm going to ask you to do it again. I'm going to ask you to do it again,

which is totally unfair. But what do you think, you know, after this latest test, what do you think is going to happen next? I'm not asking you to go, you know, five years into the future or anything like that, but is there anything that people should look for? Well, the North Koreans are going to have a big party, that's for sure. They're going to be celebrating this. But I do, you know, I always look at these, the internal imperative. the internal reasons domestically why North Korea does things and that's sometimes missed. And we're looking, we sometimes miss that when we're looking at North Korea from the outside. So those look at these big events. They've got a big party congress coming up in May.

Now this is a big deal. There have only been six party congresses since North Korea was created. And the last one was 36 years ago. So there wasn't even one during Kim Jong-il's entire rain. So this is a big deal. And I think we can explain. them to announce some major changes. And so you need to go into that on a high. So for me, there were a couple factors, just a couple hints that I gleaned from having dealt with covering this story for a long time and dealing with the North Koreans and knowing how they behave. But one of the things that I look at as well is what's coming up on their calendar. They are going to need to build up unity, a sense of unity, a sense of pride if they want

that Congress to go off well. I think I was expecting a nuclear test at some point. Wasn't expecting it to be this week necessarily, but I wouldn't be surprised if we were to see something else between now and May as well, something for them to go into that party Congress, something that allow them to go into it with a bang. Sorry, bad joke. But no, I do think that they've got their own internal reasons for why they are doing this kind of thing. We sometimes miss that. These rocket launches and nuclear tests are really a way to bring the people together, to remind the people that there's an outside threat. And this is part of their routine. They do this on a regular basis when they need to bring the people together. So that's what's happening. Thank you so much,

Gene Lee. I feel a little bit smarter about North Korea than when we started this conversation. This was a great conversation. Yeah, thank you. Great. Thanks for having me. Next time on War College. This plane was designed in around 1948. So it'll be almost 100 years old by the time they retire it from active duty, which is totally unprecedented.