Angry Planet - Is North Korea a Hypersonic Threat?

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

North Korea is back in the headlines, and as usual, it’s not because they’ve invented a new soft drink. No, Kim Jong Un’s fiefdom has once again launched missiles into the sea, claims to have invented hypersonic ones, is building up their capability to launch nuclear-tipped missiles from submarines and is restarting everyone’s favorite nuclear reactor at Yong Byon.So, why are we here again, and what does it mean?Well, Jean Lee rejoins the show to help us understand what’s going on and what we can expect next.In a first for America, Jean opened the Associated Press’ bureau in Pyongyang in 2012. She’s now a North Korea expert at the Wilson Center and is co-host of the Lazarus Heist, a podcast from the BBC.Angry Planet has a substack! Join the Information War to get weekly insights into our angry planet and hear more conversations about a world in conflict.https://angryplanet.substack.com/subscribeYou can listen to Angry Planet on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. Our website is angryplanetpod.com. You can reach us on our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/angryplanetpodcast/; and on Twitter: @angryplanetpod.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. People live in a world with their own making. Frankly, that seems to be the problem. Welcome to Angry Planet. Hello and welcome to Angry Planet. I'm Jason Fields. And I'm Matthew Galt. Really? We're doing this again? North Korea is back in the headlines, and as usual, it's not because they've invented a new soft drink. No, Kim Jong-un's fiefdom has once again launched missiles into the sea, and it claims to have invented hypersonic ones. They're building on their capability to launch nuclear-tip missiles from submarines, and they're restarting everyone's favorite nuclear reactor at Yongbian.

Why are we here again? And what does it mean? Well, Gene Lee joins the show. show to help us understand what's going on and what we can expect next. In a first for America, Jean opened the Associated Presses Bureau in Pyongyang in 2012. She's now a North Korea expert at the Wilson Center and a co-host of The Lazarus Heist, a podcast from the BBC. Thanks so much for joining us. Well, I'm sorry that it's North Korea's provocations that are bringing me back to this show, but it's great to talk to you guys again. Can you start by giving us a rundown on what's happening on the Korean Peninsula right now?

So what's not happening? So North Korea is back. We've seen North Korea amping up its weapons testing over the last few weeks. So just this month alone, we've had three missile tests from North Korea. These are tests of a long-range cruise missile, a ballistic missile that was spectacularly launched from a train. Go and check out that footage. And the latest just this week was what North Korea claims is a new hypersonic missile. And as you mentioned, the signs that they've restarted their main nuclear reactor.

But I'm just going to point out that there was also a missile test from South Korea. So South Korea tested a submarine launched ballistic missiles. So lots happening on the Korean Peninsula. So why now? What's behind the current, I guess provocation is not about. bad word. I mean, why? Just on a technical aspect, it was interesting because I went back this morning to look at what Kim Jong-un, the leader of North Korea said in January when he gave this big speech about where they were and where they're headed. And it's really interesting because

in January, he laid out a list of things that his nuclear scientists were doing. And included on that was research on a hypersonic missile. And then there was like a checklist of things that they're working on and poised to begin testing. So this shouldn't come as a total surprise. They have been, I think to us, they've been quiet over the past couple of years. But I've been saying that they're continuing to work on their weapons program, tinkering with it, getting it ready, doing the research, and preparing to test when the timing is right. And what is that timing? I mean, I think that there are so many different reasons, both domestically and in terms of their internal messaging for why and when they test. And we can talk about why this timing is so important right now. But I think that all of those things come into play. What's happening at home inside North Korea and what's happening in the rest of the world. But it's clear that this is the time where North Korea wants to ramp up tensions, remind us. that they still had this ambitious nuclear program and perhaps that's set the stage for a type of re-engagement.

Can we talk then a little bit about what's going on inside the country? Yeah. I mean, you know, frankly, it's hard for us to tell because they've been so shut down for so long. They went into a period of self-imposed isolation. And I would argue that this self-imposed isolation started in 2019 after the breakdown of those talks with then-president Don. Trump in Hanoi. Those talks broke down in February 2019 in Vietnam. And I would say that since then, because they didn't go the way that Kim Jong-un expected, he had to get on this train, 66-hour train journey back to Pyongyang without the deal that he thought he would have. And I do think that

that's when they shifted into this, okay, let's figure out how we're going to map out our strategy. And then we had the coronavirus. We had the pandemic. And I think that that provided in some sense, convened an opportunity to really shut the borders, as well as their very real concerns about how they would handle a pandemic. So North Korea shut its borders, just sealed them in January 2020. So very early, you know, they have a long border with China. And there are a lot of people who were going back and forth across that border on a daily basis. So they just sealed off the country and went into this self-imposed isolation. So it was very hard for us to tell what's going on. That said, I think when I look at what North Korea is trying to do in terms of

its domestic policy, it is to try to get their internal unity back on track. And then in terms of the external, they were, Ging Jong-un, I think, was watching and waiting, first of all, to see who the next U.S. president would be. So waiting to see if it would be Donald Trump again, who I suspect had promised him some diplomacy if we were re-elected. And then, when he wasn't reelected, to try to figure out what opportunities there were with this, there would be with this new president, President Biden. So really kind of a waiting game. And in that time period, just making sure that they were building up their nuclear program.

So even when they do get to diplomacy, if and when they do get to nuclear negotiations again, they're in a stronger position. How much stronger could they be in that, I've seen reports that they have up to 60 nuclear bombs, you know, before now. Do you have any thought about what's enough for them? What makes for security? Yeah, you know, Kim Jong-un used what we call the fire and fury period, that intense period of rhetoric, the insults flying back and forth between President Trump and Kim Jong-un in 2017.

they used that as an opportunity, the North Queens used that as an opportunity to really ramp up their nuclear testing. And by the end of 2017, they had gotten to a point where Kim Jong-un was pretty proud of the progress that they had made. They had tested and proven that they could launch

an intercontinental ballistic missile. They had made these nuclear weapons, these nuclear bombs small enough and light enough to potentially mount them on a ballistic missile. Thankfully, we haven't seen them marry those two technologies together. That would be absolutely terrifying. And those achievements did allow Kim Jong-un to say, okay, I'm pretty happy. I think we've proven ourselves.

And I'm ready to step out into the world and start negotiating. But then he discovered in 2018 and in 2019 that it wasn't enough to really put himself in a strong enough position to negotiate a deal with the United States. He needs those weapons to pay off. And I think what he's seeing is that actually I need more. I need to expand my arsenal and expand my bargaining power. And so I do think that from a leverage point of view, every single piece that he adds to that arsenal means he has more to negotiate with. On a technical level, on a security level, oh my gosh, absolutely. Each of these developments is each of these types of. test marks a development toward more and diverse and more developed nuclear technology. I mean, each of these tests that we've seen this month marks a step toward perfecting a technical element of their missile technology that gets them closer to expanding that arsenal and really being more of a threat, both in the region and globally. So yeah, we need to be absolutely terrified

that they're continuing to carry out these tests and advance their program. They are working. The goal is to get these missiles faster, making sure that they are harder to detect, making sure that they are mobile launch, mobile launch so it's much harder to track them from space. And then to get the nuclear weapons small enough to standardize them, I never would have imagined that they would have been able to develop this technology so quickly to this degree. And it's something we shall worry about. Do you think to that end, do you think that they have hypersonic capability?

And kind of what is the evidence for that in these recent tests? Well, all we have is a picture. And the North Queen claims, you know, I have been at rocket test launch sites. And I have been in North Korea for those launches. But for this, we are relying on North Korean state media. The South Korean military says it's in an early stage. And so, of course, North Korea can promote it, but we don't have the eyes on the ground to really verify how successful they were.

But we certainly have both the U.S. and South Korean and other militaries analyzing the test very closely. But it's clear that they're on their way. And each of these tests, you have to test these things, right, to work out the kinks. So each of these tests marks a development. If we can pull back just a little bit, where do you come down on the hypersonic glide vehicle technology? Because I've, there's kind of two minds out there. There's like the Jeffrey Lewis argument that it doesn't really matter. It's not that impressive.

And there's kind of what I would say is like kind of the Pentagon line and other nuclear experts, to be fair, They're like, these are terrifying. They're going to defeat missile defense. And we should be very worried about them. And everyone's working on it. Like, America's working on hypersonic. Russia's working on hypersonic. It's been pretty difficult to perfect and get right.

What do you think of it as a technology? So I would say just very simply, first of all, and I should have mentioned this earlier, I mentioned that both South Korea and North Korea have tested missiles. But South Korea is not banned from testing ballistic missiles. North Korea is banned from testing ballistic missiles banned by the UN Security Council. It's not clear yet, of course, whether this is a ballistic missile, the hypersonic, but it does have bear the name that the North Koreans give to their ballistic missiles. So it's suspected it is believed to be a ballistic missile.

I think I just wanted to make another very simple point, which is I also look at this from the perspective of somebody who spent a lot of time in North Korea. And when I say that, I just mentioned that this is a country that doesn't have a whole lot of money to be spending on very expensive weapons. So I can't help but think having spent so much time in North Korea in grueling circumstances myself and certainly nowhere near what the average North Korean lives through. That all of this testing, every time I see a test, I think, God, it comes at the expense of the welfare of the North Korean people because so many of their resources are being. thrown into these weapons and these in this testing and it's very expensive program. And so I can't help but so there's that aspect of okay, well, they're devoting so many of their limited resources to this. And what's what sacrifices are the North Korean people making when they don't have enough food? They don't have enough medicine. They don't have basic

infrastructure. Many of them don't have running water or for that or hot water or electricity or heat, we're in a place that's very cold. And on top of that, with each of these violations of UN Security Council resolutions, you get the sanctions that come with them, that follow. And so all, you know, many, many decades of sanctions to punish North Korea and to restrict North Korea's access to money, the North Korean people are paying the price for that. So I would just say that for me, there's that. And then I would say also there's the proliferation concern. Each of these technologies, each of these tests is also a form of advertisement. And so we should be worrying in terms of proliferation about the possibility that they may be looking to sell this technology or share this technology with other other nations as well.

So that raises a couple of points. Well, it actually raises a lot of points. But what I'm thinking specifically about is the North Korean economy. You mentioned the kind of shape that people are, the kind of lives they live. So has it gotten a lot worse, not just because of the money spent on the military, but because of closing the border with China? I mean, wasn't that where a lot of aid was coming in? And how does that affect their foreign policy? Yeah.

So on the state of the economy, obviously, you know, North Korea has not published and does not publish economic figures. and but I can tell you from having spent so much time there, things are very difficult, even in the best of times in North Korea. Now, shutting down that border, I mean, they imposed the most restrictive border controls that we've seen anywhere as far as I know. So that means not only stopping the passage of people across the borders, including North Korean traders, but also that,

means stopping the flow of goods coming into and going out of the country. Now, we've seen a little bit of traffic this year with China, but for the most part, goods were not coming into the country or leaving the country, so they weren't able to export and make money off their goods, and they weren't even able to bring in what they need. And I can't imagine, you know, it's everything from food that they desperately need because they always have a shortage, but also fuel, fertilizer, everything that you need to have a thriving economy in the agricultural sector as well as in your factories. And so I think we can just extrapolate and we can imagine that even if they had some reserves, a year and a half of border shutdowns were most likely devastating to the North Korean

economy. But that was a decision and a risk that the leadership was willing to make. And this is a that I have because I always wonder, well, how are they making the money to continue building these nuclear weapons, these ballistic missiles, and how are they raising the money to prop up the economy during this period of a shutdown? And that's what my podcast looks at, which is raising the question of cyber. And are they increasingly in the face of sanctions, in the face of border controls, raising the money through cyber theft. And that's something that I think we need to take a look at. And that's what I look at in my podcast is really exploring how to connect the dots

between the rise in suspected cyber attacks, where it's going, why they need that money, and what we should be worried about. Well, then, can you, do you have any, what do you make of this indictment that came down, I think yesterday or the day before, the U.S. citizens that were helping North Korea evade sanctions, I believe they were cryptocurrency. Did you see those? Are you referring to virtual Griffiths? Yes.

Yeah. So virtual Griffiths did plead guilty. So he won't go to trial. And, you know, he's an interesting case. And I hope that we'll get into him and his case and his story in my podcast. But, yeah, you know, the state department has pretty strict travel ban for American citizens to North Korea. And unless you get an exemption. from the State Department.

And this has been in place since Otto Warm Beer, who, as you may remember, was the American College student who went to North Korea in, I want to say, 2016, no, 2015, oh gosh, now I need to look at my dates, but went to North Korea as a tourist, was trying to pull down a poster in his hotel

and was caught by the North Koreans, sentenced for anti-state crimes, ended up falling into a coma, was finally rescued from North Korea in a coma, but then died soon after he was brought back to the United States. And soon after that in 2017, the State Department imposed a pretty harsh, I shouldn't say harsh, let me try that,

a pretty strict travel ban on American citizens. And you need to have an exemption to go to North Korea legally as far as the State Department is concerned. So he was warned apparently not to go without permission, but he did anyway to attend a cryptocurrency conference in North Korea. And so he, instead of going to trial, he was, he did plead guilty. So he will be sentenced in January and he faces up to 20 years in prison. And so it's interesting, I think that, yeah, cryptocurrency is a, is something that the North Greens are looking very closely at.

and certainly anything related to cyber is something they've been very interested in. Science and technology is something that Kim Jong-un has been advocating since he took power. He sees it as such a potential way not only to raise money and to improve the economy, but also to build loyalty among the next generation, his peers, the millennials of North Korea. but I have also always wondered if there was a nefarious side to building up this stable of computer geniuses and whether they would send them overseas to help rustle up money using cryptocurrency, Bitcoin and cyber theft. There's a history of North Korea reaching outside of the country to make money.

My favorite is selling meth. around the world. The Pachinko parlors also. Yeah. And forced labor also. So are they keeping up with those activities while they've got their lockdown going on? Absolutely. The illicit means that the North Korean regime uses to raise cash is something that we get

into in my podcast as well, all of those things, the pachinko parlors, the, meth and supernotes is another one of them, creating counterfeit $100 bills. And you mentioned the workers overseas. So workers overseas, I would say, do raise quite a lot of money, and many of them do work legitimately. It is considered forced labor by many because often when North Koreans, the way their system works is they hand their salaries over to this state.

So in a sense, they don't have control over. over their own salary. So for us, it looks like forced labor. And in many, and we get into this in my podcast as well, for many of them, it's a very restrictive life overseas as well. It's a lot freer than they, than their lives in North Korea, still really restrictive compared to what we would consider normal in the rest of the world. Now, it's really unclear. So the UN Security Council did require or ask UN member nations to send North Korean work. workers back a couple years ago, whether they met that request by the December 2019 deadline is unclear.

Because of course, soon after that, North Korea shut its border due to coronavirus. So less than about a month after the deadline. And whether or not the North Koreans were able to get back, I don't know. I suspect that there are quite a lot of North Koreans who were working overseas, who are still overseas because their own country won't let them come back into North Korea. due to these border restrictions. And so are they still working in foreign countries in China and Russia in particular, quite possibly, and perhaps even beyond in the Middle East and elsewhere?

I do want to mention that the tests do have another domestic internal purpose. And I say that from having spent time on the ground when these tests take place. So, you know, we tend to look at the testing in North Korea through our filter. But when you're there in North Korea, it's like a whole different calendar. under a whole different scenario. It's like you live in an alternate universe, which is, was so enlightening for me to be there and see, because you're just plunked into this completely different world with a whole different set of propaganda.

And so what I would say is another reason for this test and the timing of it is that internal unity that they're trying to build. Because actually, the North Cranes are justifiably proud that their country is developing all these different web. on their own. And so it is a major source of pride for the North Korean people. It's such skillful messaging and packaging and marketing on the part of the North Korean regime. And we have a couple major anniversaries coming up in North Korea. So when I look at the testing calendar, I always look at the North Korean calendar. What do they need to do? What is their timing about? What does Kim Jong-un need?

And so for me, this is not just about what they're trying to tell us, but it's also about what he's trying to tell his own people. So there's that aspect of it. A couple big things, a couple big anniversaries coming up in North Korea and reason for them to be able to announce the success of these tests. Do they want a peace deal? What do they want? I mean, if they're having negotiations, what actually does North Korea want? Do they want peace? I mean, I know it seems really contradictory. And I think there's a lot of chatter right now about the mixed signals. Because while they've been testing, we've also seen Kim Jong-un's younger sister, who is a chief aide. She's also his chief envoy on everything to do with South Korea. We've seen her go back and forth and issue these statements that are on one day they're super harsh. The next day, they seem really conciliatory. And so, you know, people are saying, what are these mixed statements? signals about. To me, it's not, it's actually very much a part of a strategy that the North Koreans use, which is alternating between charm and provocation. They know that this will keep us on our toes and keep us, keep us a little bit unclear of what their intentions are. And that's particularly useful with the South Koreans who are so invested in that relationship with North Korea.

And I think are prone to being easily emotionally manipulated. And the North Koreans are trying to advantage of. I do think, and I've been saying this all along, that Kim Jong-un does want to get back to the negotiating table to get back to whether they want peace. I think that the tensions serve as a convenient excuse for him to build up those nuclear weapons, but eventually he wants to use those weapons to negotiate with them when he gets to that negotiating table. And so it's part of this broader strategy. Right now, what he does want to do is remind us that they have this ambitious and advanced nuclear weapons program and to create this sense of urgency to get us chattering about North Korea again and to kind of compel the United States, Japan, South Korea, China, turn its attention back to

North Korea and to build some discussion and tension around their progress. program to put them in a better position for when they restart negotiations. With the negotiations, though, do you think that the nuclear weapons stockpile is actually on the table? Is that something that they would consider giving up? Or, again, sort of what are they looking for in the negotiations? What's a win for North Korea? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. We're always asking, what does Kim Jong-un want? Well, I don't think he wants to give up his entire nuclear program. It doesn't. doesn't want to give up the weapons in entirety. And that was the sticking point in the issue in

2019. But I think that he's willing to barter away pieces of it. And so the more he has in his arsenal, the more he has to bargain with, the more he has to negotiate away. He does want the world to recognize North Korea as a nuclear power on par with the United States. He wants to put himself in a position where he can hold onto his nuclear weapons while advocating a nuclear weapons-free world and a nuclear weapons-free Korean peninsula the same way the United States does without having to give anything up, giving up that program or that capability completely. So I think that that's my assessment of what he wants and where he is. He wants that acknowledgement. He wants to hold on to it. Now, he called.

the nuclear weapons program, the treasured sword. I think the word recently I saw was treasured shield. He believes that the nuclear weapon will keep him in power and keep North Korea safe. And so I can't imagine him giving it up entirely. It is so tied to his legitimacy and his leadership. But I do think that he's willing to barter pieces of it away. And when, if and when, but, you know, we always have to have as an end goal, a complete denuclearization. I mean, I don't want, it's hard for me to accept the acknowledgement of North Korea as a nuclear power and the idea that they will get to hold on to these forever because it just means that that region, the world, will live under that threat forever.

And I'm not sure I trust the North Koreans to stick to any international rules and regulations about how to handle itself as a nuclear power. But realistically speaking, I think that I don't think he's going to get it. And he might just give up pieces of it. So where does that leave the South? Does the South want its own nuclear weapons? You mentioned a missile test from the South. What was that about?

What kind of missile was it? It just seems like, of course, South Korea is the one under the most threat. So South Korea launched a submarine-launched ballistic missile, or I should say South Korea tested a submarine-launched ballistic missile, and they're perfectly entitled to do so, but it certainly raised concerns about an arms race in Northeast Asia. And I think that it's interesting because it is also South Korea's way of expressing its own sovereignty and also expressing some desire to take control over its own defense. And perhaps the North Koreans could see some people might think that the North Koreans

would be threatened by it, maybe in words in their state media, but I think they would also privately be thinking, yeah, the South Koreans, we need to defend ourselves. This will get us the Koreans closer to not needing the protection of the United States. So it's a really interesting step the South Koreans have taken. But it does raise concerns. about whether all these different countries in the region are going to start to feel like they need to build up their capacity and their capability to protect themselves against North Korea.

So could Japan also be looking to beef up its capability? Will we continue on that path? And it just raises the specter of a nuclear arms race in Northeast Asia. Obviously, China as well, the concerns that China would have. and whether that would, they don't want to see an amping up of military capability in its neighborhood either. It's really interesting. We've got a South Korean president, Moon Jae-in, who's really committed to engaging North Korea. He was very successful in using the last Winter Olympics in Pyongchang as an opportunity to engage the North Koreans.

Kim Jong-un sent his little sister to the Winter Olympics, an absolutely amazing. moment, but he only has a few months left in office. So South Korea has a one-term five-year presidency. So he's got this, he doesn't have that much time left. I'm sure he wants to do what he can. Now, it's not clear whether his party will remain in office when we have elections in South Korea in the spring or whether we'll have a conservative take office, in which case North Korea policy could change dramatically. Now, these two. parties are so, and I should say Koreans at large, South Koreans at large are very polarized. There are many, some who feel that we have to find a way to live with the North Koreans,

engage with the North Koreans. They are advocating an end-of-war declaration. But then you have the conservative South Koreans who don't trust the North Koreans at all and would rather kind of let them live in isolation. And don't, would not agree. to any kind of an agreement that could put them at greater risk. So it comes down to a question for South Koreans of how much you trust the North Koreans to stick to their agreements. And this is a really polarizing issue in South Korea. I think that my concern, of course, is that the more North Koreans develop their capability,

the more South Koreans are under threat and perhaps under perpetual threat. And once that extends to Japan, then we're going to bring Japan into the question. Japan is going to feel that it's compelled to react and defend itself as well. This is something when it's interesting you bring up Japan. Can we briefly talk about that just a little bit more? Is it something that when people talk about the Korean Peninsula, in most Western media, I don't hear people talk about Japan a whole lot. But it's a pretty important part of the equation, I think.

Can you kind of give us a little rundown of, I mean, we could spend a whole day just sitting here talking about Japan and its relationship to Korea. But can we get like the like the brief Spark Notes version of why they're an important part of this equation? Clarify for me why you mean what we mean by important part of the equation. They're an American out. They're, you know, a staunch American ally in the region. They're, you know, close to the peninsula. There's a long history between Korea and Japan. And with these specific nuclear tests, how does Japan react to them? What is it like domestically there for them? when this kind of stuff happens? Is that more of a narrow? Sorry. I know I asked a whole college

class worth of questions. I'm sorry. Yeah. So Japan is like South Korea, a major U.S. ally. And the Biden administration in particular is really looking to restore these alliances, these traditional alliances. And with this pivot back to Asia, Japan is an important part of that equation. And Japan is also host to many of the U.S. troops in the region. But the problem is that South Korea and Japan have such a terrible relationship. And that goes back many, many years. It goes back to, I would say it goes back millennia. It goes back many centuries.

Millennia might be a bit of an exaggeration. But definitely for centuries, South Korea has always been this tiny country in between superpowers, in between Japan, in between China. And has often been kind of a stepping stone for the Japanese to China. the Japanese colonized Korea from 1910 to 1945. And that was a brutal period. I talk about in my podcast, I talk about how that affected my own family. These are details that I didn't even know.

You know, my own family had to take on Japanese names. And my uncles learned Japanese. They were forbidden from speaking Korean. So really, really, my great grandparents were, brutalized and imprisoned for trying to support Korean nationalism. So really difficult period that the Koreans, we also had the comfort women who were Korean women who were forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese military. And South Korea doesn't feel like Japan has truly apologized for these many years of brutality. So it's a real source of pain and contention between the two

countries today between the two governments, and then they have their own legal issues. But some of this historical stuff does bubble up in foreign and intelligence between these two countries. And that's a problem for trying to get what we call the trilateral alliance back on track. There are times when South Korean Japan just refused to share military intelligence, for example, which is very dangerous when you've got missiles flying around the region. So I think that for the Biden administration, One of the key points is to try to get that relationship back on track, to try to help South Korea and Japan identify their common interests, especially when it comes to North Korea, to restore communication, especially when it comes to military and intelligence. And because, you know, these countries are so close together that one of these missile launches from North Korea, they do tend to land. Japan is also always looking to see whether it lands in their territory.

In 2017, those intercontinental ballistic missiles flew over Japanese territory. And you also have to think that Japan is going to think that they need to be prepared. They need to protect themselves. And will they feel compelled at some point to shoot one of these down? So one of the things that we worry about in the region, it's not so much that North Korea is going to stage a first strike. But with one of these tests, is it going, is there? going to be a miscalculation where one of the nations in the region feels like they have to defend themselves because they don't know what it is that's flying through their airspace.

So I think that, you know, we have a Japan's going through transition politically as well. We have, I believe, a new prime minister. And I think his policies are going to be tough on North Korea. So it'll be interesting to see how and whether South Korea and Japan are able to be able to, to find some common ground when it comes to North Korea policy and that that will help smooth over the difficulties in their own bilateral relationship. So, Jean, could you tell us a little bit more about your podcast and what, yeah, what's it all about? The Lazarus Heist, I am hosting this podcast with Jeff White, who is a tech journalist.

So it's interesting, he really understands. He explains how the cyber works. and I explain why North Korea might be engaging in cyber and try really what we wanted to do was put a face on these sort of, you know, hackers are always kind of nameless and faceless, you know, that image of them in a hoodie. Actually, North Koreans also wear hoodies when they, when they're doing computer work as well. But I wanted to kind of shed some light on who they are, who these young men are who are, who are North Korea's cyber. Cyber warriors and explain where they fit into the narrative. Why it is they have state-funded research? What makes them so formidable?

And I think it is because they've got the North Korean state behind them, or I should say, military intelligence. They play a very important role in North Korea. It's not just a lone hacker acting on his own in the basement. they are supported by some very powerful people and are expected to carry out some very important cyber theft as well as, I would say, asymmetric warfare. So, yeah, we start with looking at one of the most audacious cyber thefts, and that was the attempt to steal a billion dollars from the Bank of Bangladesh, the Central Bank of Bangladesh.

But, you know, we start by, we actually look first at the Soniaq, which I think was the moment all of us became aware that North Korea was really investing in it. And we go from there and really try to understand not only this particular bank heist and the crazy ways that they set it up and carried it out, but also the why. Why is North Korea doing this? What have they done in the past to raise money? what should we be worried about, all of us. And I have to say, I mean, I was already pretty paranoid.

I'm having been the subject of so much hacking, I've been the target of so much hacking. But I think everyone needs to listen to this because I think this is our reality. Whether it's North Korea or whether there are other hackers, this is just what's so terrifying in our podcast is just how easy it is for us to get ensnared in it and to enable this type of hacking to happen.

And of course, with North Korea, the end results, I think, are, more nuclear weapons. And so it has that global implication, the threat to all of us that helping North Korea to fund its nuclear program, the implications that it has for all of us. Gene Lee, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. It was great to talk to you guys. That's all for this week. Angry Planet listeners. As always, Angry Planet is me, Matthew Galt, Jason Fields, and Kevin Odell, who's created by myself and Jason Fields. If you like the show, we have a substack, angryplanetpod.com or angryplanet.substack.com, where for $9 a month, you get two bonus episodes every month. We just published one yesterday. That is really, really excellent talking to a freelance conflict journalist that has complicated feelings about the war in Afghanistan ending and why Americans don't want a civil war, even though some of them seem to think they do. So check that out at angry planetpod.com. We will be back.

week with another conversation about conflict on an angry planet. Stay safe until then.