Angry Planet - On the Frontlines of Turkey’s Invasion of Syria

Episode Date: February 12, 2018

NATO’s second largest army has invaded Syria. Turkey is conducting military operations in Afrin—a Kurdish city on Syria’s north western border. Russia and the U.S. wait on the edges as the world’s most complicated war zone gets even more so.This week on War College, Afrin native Can Êzîdxelo and freelance photographer Joey L. walk us through the conflict, what it means for the Kurds, and what it means for the unending Syrian Civil War.You can listen to War College on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. You can reach us on our new Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/warcollegepodcast/; and on Twitter: @War_College.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast? Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. Some of them got killed or injured. I saw them, and they had key in their neck and the spoon in their pocket. So the key was for the instill, for the paradise door, gate, and the spoon is to have launch with their prophet, Muhammad.

You're listening to War College, a weekly podcast that brings you the stories from behind the front lines. Here are your hosts, Matthew Galt and Jason Fields. Hello and welcome to War College. I'm Jason Fields. And I'm Matthew Galt. Fighting in Syria appears to have reached a new phase. And it's a dangerous one. Russia, Turkey, the Kurds, and Assad Syrians are fighting.

And oh yeah, U.S. troops are there too. In a recent incident, forces backed by Russia struck a base where American soldiers were acting as advisors. And there are still Islamic State fighters on the ground. Sounds like a recipe for World War. So, what's happening? Joey Lawrence and Jan Echizador are here to help us get a grip on the situation. Jan has worked as a translator. journalist and fixer in the region.

Lawrence has been in and out of the region working as a photographer and journalist. Glad you guys could join us. Thank you. It's nice to be with you guys. Thank you. Can we just start off by asking what the hell is going on in Syria right now? Yeah, sure. I ask myself the same question every day. Basically, the most recent development is the Turkish invasion of the region known as Africa. And this is the first time that Turkey has openly invaded the region with their own forces,

fighting alongside some former rebels and jihadists and other mercenaries that they've paid from refugee camps in Turkey. And they're openly fighting against the SDF and YPG forces, which is the majority Kurdish group in northern Syria, which are backed by the American. So it's a new development of the war, a new layer of complexity, and once again, it's the civilians on the ground who are suffering. And to make perfectly clear to the audience, Turkey, NATO member, ostensibly an American ally, and a long and unpleasant history with the Kurds, correct? Yeah, I'll let Jan speak on that. Jan's from Afrin and he's has a family on the ground of exactly where the Turks are invading now and he's in touch with them and can speak on that as a Kurds obviously way better than I can.

I'm not going to talk about the history here because it's a long history when from hundreds of years Turks are persecuting Kurds and committing massacres in many Kurdish cities. But I can talk about what happened from the beginning of civil war in Syria. Turkey interfered in Syrian problem issues since the beginning, and that was because of the Kurds. Turkey, as we know, has, that everyone know, has more than 25 million Kurds inside Turkish border. And the other Kurds, especially Rojava or Syrian Kurds, are alongside Turkish border. Turkey, since the beginning, is doing its best to prevent Kurds to achieve anything on the ground. And since six years, Turkey is using mercenaries and jihadists, including ISIS and al-Qaeda,

affiliated groups on the ground to attack Kurds. And what is going on now in Afrin is Turkey for the first time interfered directly with its army and fascist volunteers to attack the civilians, Kurdish civilians on the ground. And that is happening because Turkey couldn't achieve anything until now. did everything, didn't achieve anything on the ground. So do we think that this is about them taking and holding Afrin, like breaking off that piece of Syria for themselves? Or is this purely about the Kurds?

It's about the Kurds. Turkey said it. The Turkish Prime Minister and Turkish President said it many times, especially these two weeks. They said it openly that they don't have anything to do in Syria. Syria. They don't have any advantages in Syria, Idlib or Aleppo or Afrin. The thing that they are doing now is to stop Kurds to achieve their goals in the region. They said it openly. Yeah, I think in the beginning of the war, Turkey had two main goals inside Syria.

The first would probably be regime change and supporting the rebels to overthrow the Assad regime. And the second, or let's say, the equal goal would be to crush Kurdish aspirations within Syria for self-determination because it, of course, as you mentioned, Matthew relates directly to the Kurds on their own soil, and any success or any rights inside Syrian Kurdistan could directly bleed over into Turkish Kurdistan. And as Jan mentioned, this is a conflict that's been going on for a very long time. But I think as the war has evolved and the war has changed and the regime is winning the war and the rebels are at an all-time level of weakness, you can see Turkey starting to use all those old FSA groups that used to fight the regime, make deals with the Russians and other superpowers and sort of move them around the country for their own national goals, meaning Turkey's national goals instead of the Syrian revolution. and basically using these old rebel groups now as mercenaries to stop the Kurds by any means necessary and you can see them being moved from places inside Turkey but also other areas of Syria to fight YPG directly

and they're sort of acting as the cannon fodder let's say like the ground force or infantry and it's the Turkish army that's using their sophisticated weapons and the military technology and obviously leading the offensive themselves. But the ground troops are these Syrian rebels to give it a sort of a Syrian revolutionary veneer, but in the end it has really nothing to do with the original goals of the revolution that started in 2011. So this leaves sort of an odd situation. I mean, the whole thing's an odd situation. But in this case, we're talking about two different groups that were trained and also armed by the United States,

are fighting against each other, right? I mean, the Free Syrian Army and the Kurds at different times, at least, were backed by the U.S. Yes, you could definitely say that, but you also have to be careful that not all FSA groups are one sort of entity. These are basically a hodgepodge of different militias

ranging from hardcore Islamists to more nationally focused, at least in the beginning. But certainly the extremists took over the power in the first couple years of the war, at least in my view. So it's not like the Free Syrian Army was ever a unified force, and when America trained one specific group, they all benefited from it. But there are certainly rebels that have American training that are among the Turks that are now fighting the American trained or backed SDF and YPG.

But the distinction is if you look at a map of the areas of control in Syria, we can say there's three different cantons that the SDF controls. The two in the east of the country, which is Colbani and Jazeera, those are under the Americans' protection now, and that's sort of like the anti-ISIS coalition you hear so much about. But Afrin, which is not connected to those by land, it's in the northwest of the country. That one has been isolated and under siege basically for the,

the entire war. It's been very stable, but it's had front lines against the Al-Nusra Front and FSA and as well as the regime. So the Americans, at least until this point, despite some strong words, strongly, strongly discouraging the Turks from doing this, aren't really stepping in to intervene. And basically it's SDF and YPG on the ground fighting against the second largest army in NATO. I would add something. Those groups on the ground are, most of them are not trained by the coalition, especially the leading groups or the biggest groups in this invasion. In Afrin, for example, we have Ahras Shamm, which is never being trained by the coalition.

Also, we have the Nusra, which is a La Qaeda affiliated group in Syria, never trained by the coalition. We have Turkestani Islamic. Islamic Party which is mainly Oigur from China, Turkey trained them itself and also we have Samarkand, it's also mostly Turkmen, Fyla Qasham, many many groups we have also Ahrara-Sherkija which is a big group and it's Nalqa affiliated now attacking and invading Afrin so most of the groups the leading groups in this invasion never trained by the coalition and those who trained by the coalition

are now weak and the coalition knows it. All right, and where's Russia in all of this? Or are they not in Afrin at all? Are they just watching? Now, Russia used to be in Afrin with small groups since SDF and YPG asked the coalition

led by USA to go to Africa, to help them there also to be existed there. The coalition refused many times because they keep saying until now that they are interested in East Euphrates, not West Euphrates and since Afrin is in West Euphrates so they didn't go there. So SDF tried to stabilize the situation because Afrin has been completely surrounded by its enemies, say because one side is regime as joy said and the other side is al-Qaeda affiliated and some

small groups of FSA and Turkey so these two groups of Russian troops used to be in Afrin but before the attack they decided to leave Afrin and that was because they officially asked the SDF and YPG and Afghan administration to to accept Syrian regime again to be in Afrin and to send their troops or to accept their troops in Afrin while YPG, SDF and the African administration refused it. So Russia wanted to bring Afrin into Syrian control or the regime control again and SDF refused that. Russia is through from the region and until now is unfortunately let's say all the the most of the the powers watching after watching what is going on watching that

civilians being killed every day and this is part of the politics in the region yeah I think just to add to Jan's point what he was saying is that if the Russians are propping up the regime and backing the Syrian government of course they've been going through negotiations to try to bring YPG and SDF back onto the control of the Syrian government. And, you know, there's some regions where they share resources and they sort of have a pact of neutrality in a lot of places. It doesn't mean that they see eye to eye. There's been a lot of hostilities and clashes during the war. But for the most part, both the Syrian government and SDF fear the country falling into the hands of jihadists.

Now, if Afrin was under the protection of the Russians and they suddenly leave, there's a lot of people, myself, included, that think that they're trying to bring YPG and SDF back into the arms of the Syrian government in a sort of sick and twisted way of saying, like, look, you need us here, you need our Air Force, and without us, the Turks are going to bleed you. So if you don't like this negotiation and this deal falls apart, this is what's going to happen. So it's sort of a cruel method of getting SDF to negotiate on more worse terms because at the same time, SDF and the other parts of the country are becoming very strong because of the American project there. And it is one sort of irony that the other cantons or the other regions in the east are really powerful because there is ISIS there. Meanwhile, Afrin managed to keep ISIS out for the entire war, and the irony is now that they don't have, American backing because of that, the Americans sort of spared the El Nusra front, which is Al-Qaeda during the war, because a lot of people think, and again, myself included, they're putting

pressure on the regime. So now it's sort of left isolated and under siege. So are U.S. forces actually in this same region right now? No, but they are in a city called Manbiz, which the Turkish president has been threatening openly in many, many different speeches saying that after Afrin, they're going to go after Mambesh and there's a heavy buildup U.S. presence there, but maybe Jan can speak to more of exactly what Erdogan was saying. Mambach is not too far from Afrin. The territory between Mambage and Afrin is also occupied by Turkey and its affiliated jihadists, it's Jrablus and Alvar.

So now Turkey is saying that we are going not only to Mnbred, we are going alongside to the border, to the Iraqi border, which means the entire North Syria, which is Rajava. So Turkey will not stop in Africa, I think, if they could invade it completely. And American also, American troops or the coalition, A representative in the region said it two days ago that they will not accept any Turkish invasion or attack on members. So that could actually put two NATO allies at each other's throats. Oh, yes, yeah, certainly. With the Russians watching.

Yeah, exactly. Do you know if there's anything going on to try to prevent this from happening, or is it all on the battlefield? Actually, now the focus is on Afrin. If Turkey succeeds in invading Afrin and killing massacring people there without with all what is happening and the world is silent on the other side, maybe they would go to Mambujan other places also and maybe there will be clashes also in all over Syria and the problem will be bigger in Syria because it will be more complicated because now in Afrin the Turkey openly used the jihadist former ISIS members Al-Qaeda to kill people to destroy the houses for example now nobody is talking about what is going

in Afrin the Turkey is bombing and shelling all the facilities on the ground they are shelling and bombing bakeries schools water stations, power stations, everything on the ground and buildings, civilians, houses. So if it goes like this, I think Turkey will go to other places also. Yeah, and a lot of the American statements coming out, you can see what they're trying to do is make a distinction between Afrin SDF and the SDF that they support. And they're saying, you know, oh, we don't have any operations there because it doesn't relate to it. the fight against ISIS. You know, the way they rationalize their presence inside of Syria, of course, is under counterterrorism fighting ISIS. But if you actually look at what's actually

happening is those SDF recruits that are in the other cantons in the other region, they're just taking a regime road from one area of control to the other and fighting Turkey there. So for the Americans to say that, oh, this force has nothing to do with the people that we trained is not really helpful to any side, really. How united are the Kurds right now? I think from my perspective at looking at things, my own perspective, is that even Kurds who weren't pro-YPG or pro this revolutionary ideology, maybe they were skeptical before or supported other political groups,

Afrin has sort of been a rallying call, I think, for a lot of Kurds, and I've seen a lot of friends of mine become increasingly, like nationalistic and pro-Kurd because they see this sort of Turkish invasion as a re-iteration of what's happened through history. So although even Kurds might not support the political party in power there, they see this incursion as directly against Kurds as people. And it's very similar to what we saw in Kobani at the end of 2014 when sort of all Kurds were sort of united under a common battle. against a common enemy, let's say. I think that's what's happening in Afrin. But of course, the Iraqi Kurds and there's a lot of different political movements across Kurdistan. But in Syrian Kurdistan, especially Afrin, it was very much under sort of Abdullah Ojalon thought way before the war.

I mean, maybe Jan can talk about it because he grew up there, but Afrin Canton has been like this not as a cause and effect from the Syrian war. but actually way before that. So I think there's a lot of mobilization of civilians, of village guards, protesters, and as well as the YPG and SDF armies themselves fighting. Ojolon, if I'm remembering right, he led a group of people who are socialists, right?

I mean, not religious, very secular, in fact. Am I remembering that correctly? Yeah, Ogeland thought, is, now they say because now Ogeland thought is based on mainly based on democratic confederism which is based on a woman rights

women rights ecology and let's say democratic socialism something like that if it is correct in English the thought is based on democracy

and Afrin, the entire Rojava especially Afrin, is too much under the influence of that thought. And you can see women or the society in Africa is more open. You can find any religious parties, political parties or groups or associations in Afrin. This is because of that thought. People are very secular there. And this is actually you can see the videos released by the jihadists who are attacking Afrin. They are saying we are attacking and we are going to kill the pigs and unbelievers in Afrin. The Kurds there because they are unbelievers, they are pigs, they are drinking, they drink alcohol, etc. All this stuff.

So yes, the thought, as he said, is based on women rights, ecology and democracy. Yeah, and Abdullah Ogelan is the founder of the PKK, which is the insurgent group inside Turkey, and it's these groups inside Syria that follow the writings and the ideology of Ogelon. And basically when the Syrian government retreated earlier in the war from these areas, facing both the rebellion and jihadist insurgency, it was those PKK cadres that were either from Syria before that moved, or that took advantage of the power vacuum to train and organize these local forces. So the reason why Turkey invades is they see this sort of movement

as just the same enemy that they've been fighting since 1984, which is a sort of PKK movement. But of course the reality is a lot more complicated than that when this ideology is sort of being conflated with just being the exact same founding group, of 1978 when really it's more of a sort of a mindset and a movement that creeps into all areas of societies, not just a military wing. All right, War College listeners, we are going to pause there for a brief word from our sponsors.

Welcome back. You are listening to War College. I am Matthew Galt. I'm here with Jason Fields, and we are talking about Turkey's recent incursion into Syria. What's the Islamic State activity like? And I'm wondering if, at this point, do you draw much of a distinction between the different groups that are kind of driven by a religious ideology? Or do you just kind of see them all as kind of in the same bucket? I think the videos that are being released now from Afrin really remind me of watching videos in 2012, 2013 in the Syrian Civil War

when nobody really knew what ISIS was. Like when you watch these videos of, you know, them mutilating corpses, singing like jihadi songs, praising, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda and stuff like that, it reminds me of that time when, like, people are like, who are these, like, radicals that are mixed in with the rebels?

And since that time, obviously, the rebels have become so weakened that they're just more of a veneer or, let's say, powerless to actually influence the course of war inside Syria and are kind of, like, on alongside of these better equipped, better trained, more organized, seemingly, less corrupt even locally extremist groups. So like this is a personal opinion. Of course there's differences between the different extremist groups, but I think they all kind of have the exact same end goal. But the way that they look to achieve those is more like tactics and strategy.

And those those differ. But in terms of the ideology and what they hope to achieve, when I look at these videos and what's going on to me, it looks honestly no no different from ISIS. But maybe under a different control of a different leader who has a similar mind. So I think it's sort of like reductive and it sounds like, you know, you're the Assad regime saying like, oh, all opposition to us is ISIS. Like that's not true. But at least this like jihadi mindset, what I really fear is, and I think this is why maybe the American military should take an interest in Afrin,

is this could literally become a breeding ground of al-Qaeda, as just south of Afrin actually is in Idlib. Even Brett McGurk, who is the presidential advisor to coalition against ISIS, admitted that Idlib province, which is under the Turkish protector now, is a breeding ground for al-Qaeda. So to me, there's honestly not much difference, and we shouldn't really be obsessed with this fancy name that ISIS happened to release.

you know, more flashy and better videos and then the other groups. Really, in the Syrian war, there's dozens of groups that have the exact same ideology as ISIS, and a lot of them are fighting in Afrin right now. Yeah, I would add something. Now the groups who are invading Afrin are extremists, and you can see that in the videos released by them. But south of Afrin, there are many towns in Afrin. My town is called Jandres.

So south of Afrin is south of my town. South of Afrin is completely under the control of Al-Nusra, which is officially Al-Qaeda branch in Syria. Also, in 2012, when they were attacking Afrin for the first time, I was there watching what was going on. and when some of them got killed or injured, I saw them and they had key in their neck and the spoon in their pocket. So the key was for the steel for the paradise door, gate,

and the spoon is to have lunch with their prophet, Muhammad. So this is what is going on now also. They're attacking from south of Africa, west of it and north of it. All these groups together are Al-Qaeda affiliated or Islamist extremist jihadists in Syria. And Turkey now, everyone knows that Turkey is using them because they want to kill. When they kill civilians, they sing songs like what Joyce said. Turkey can say, I don't know. There are groups of FSA and we don't know them exactly.

but they use them to kill people, to destroy houses, to kill children on the ground. And now, tonight, let's say, most thousands of families are living in the basements and in the caves in Afrin. Thousands of families, thousands of children. They run out of food, run out of food, water and other facilities. Who is responsible for all these, all what is going on? Nobody is talking about that. So I think it's very, very, very dangerous to not break the silence in the world. Otherwise, in future, everyone would say that there was massacred going on in Afrin

and the jihadists were attacking, killing people, but nobody said something about that. Yeah, and I think for now, like the goals of that specific jihad might be nationalist focus on Syria only. But you have to remember that ISIS was also a splinter from the Al Nusra front, and they're just a breakaway group that then sort of like publicly were very loud about their globalist jihad goals and the terrorist activities in the West and things like that. So just allowing it to become a breeding ground for this kind of mindset. We might not see the effects of it in Europe or the West now, but I think in the years to come there's really no indication that another like radical even more radical splinter could break off and become empowered from this power vacuum that has emerged in that region of Syria.

Well, thank you guys for taking us through that. It sounds like a really complex situation and it sounds terrible. Do you have any sense of where there? the battle's going who's winning Jan maybe you can talk about what what your what your family's what your family saying there yeah actually the main problem yeah yeah now the main problem in in offering invasion is the the jets aircrafts Turkey uses F-16 F-17 and heavy cannons but the main problem is jets and aircrafts but the main problem is jets and aircraft in Afrin. Otherwise, all people, especially the fighters and all people

always say that we will defend our region, we will defend our region against the jihadists and al-Qaeda, and we will never let them to slash our children, to behead our brothers and sisters. All of them are ready to defend and to sacrifice themselves to protect their children and their families on the front lines. And there is, until now, the resistance is, I mean, they resist a lot. But the main problem, again, is the aircraft and the jets, because they are bombing the front lines, and most of the bombings are under the front line,

which means today, for example, they bombed some villages and towns, which are 10 to 20 kilometers far from the front line. They killed and injured a lot of, children and women, civilians. Otherwise, the Kurds will never let those jihadists and Turkey to invade their version and kill their families. Yeah, I think a military victory for Turkey is inevitable just because of the superior technology and as Jan mentioned, the jets. But the thing is, is what a lot of people are asking themselves is, does Turkey really want to occupy Afrin and even if they took control of the major city centers, which I think they eventually could.

I mean, these are people fighting with stockpiles of anti-tank weapons and AK-47s against, like I said, the second most powerful NATO army. Does Turkey really want to occupy a place where they're going to face a Kurdish insurgency basically forever, the same insurgency that they've been unable to stop since 1984, inside Turkey, do they really want to occupy that or do they just want to sort of pressure Afrin or isolate it, let's say, to weaken it? Nobody actually knows what their goals are because the loud Turkish rhetoric never actually matches their moves on the ground. And it's hard to say what they actually hope to achieve with this. And there's even supporters of rebels inside

Syria who are totally against this offensive because as these groups are moved from other areas of Syria, of course, the regime advances on those rebel-held areas. So it seems like a sort of sorting out of powers and Turkey's making deals with the Syrian government and the Russians. And sort of like when Aleppo fell, a lot of people say it was Turkey making a deal to move those groups out of Aleppo and insert them into Euphrates shield and eventually the Syrian government takes advantage. So again, I think Turkey's goals have shifted from regime change to now just stopping Kurds and because of that the regime is advancing. So I think that's sort of how all

the sides are seeing this. They're sort of finding a common cause against the Kurds of Afrin. The situation on the ground is a catastrophe. It's a terrible situation. As I said, tens of thousands of children are now living under the ground, basements and caves. The temperature is minus 3 and 4 during the night. Nobody can provide YPG and YPG and other associations in Afrin's strong. to provide food and water but since two days especially these two days because of the heavy shelling and bombing nobody can reach him in the caves and basement

so yes Turkey yesterday especially yesterday they destroyed all the cell powers the towers sorry they destroyed the towers in Afrin around Afrin so there there is no internet now in Afrin it's fairly you can find internet and no phones. What can I say? It's unbelievable to see all of what is going on on the ground and jihadists releasing videos how they entered the villages and torturing people, killing people.

Nobody is talking about, especially the media. the world yeah joy it's what they can say the the situation is terrible really terrible the on the medicine there is a lack of medicine there is only one hospital big hospital it's not that big but it's the biggest hospital in afrin and yesterday also they released a statement and said that we can't treat all these injured people and we can't treat many places because of the the bombardment and shellings. I think another interesting point that's unrelated as well as the videos featuring YPG and YPJ firing anti-tank weapons, ATGMs.

And I think these weapons were stockpiled during the war and a lot of people thought that YPG did not have heavy weapons, but they were either busted and smuggled smuggling rings that were going elsewhere from Turkey to the rebels and the YPG stopped the armed convoys or they were, let's say, smuggled from other areas or purchased on the black market. And we're seeing a lot of interesting videos of YPG using anti-tank weapons to fight against the Turks. And because of those weapons, they've suffered a lot of casualties, but they've actually been able to hold and defend areas better than anyone thought. we're able to. And it's a mystery if there'll be some nations, let's say, superpowers that have an interest in leaking SDF or YPG heavy weapons to sort of bleed the Turks in Afrin, Canton.

And if anyone will step in and sort of see that as a convenient bloody mess to further their own goals. Yeah, that's another irony is on Twitter and stuff. People are saying, look at YPG using American heavy weapons against Turkey. Meanwhile, those are the weapons that Turkey sent to the rebels. So the whole war is very, very confusing and hard to understand, but at least that's what's happening now. Yeah, I think that's, that's this conflict in a nutshell. Thank you again, both for coming on. Really appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. Thanks. Thanks for, thanks for having us. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. That's all for this week. Thank you so much War College listeners. War College is me, Matthew Galt, and Jason, Jason Fields.

If you like the show, please like and subscribe on iTunes and leave us a review. We just might read it on the air. We tweet at War underscore College, and you can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com forward slash war college podcast. We will see you next week.