Angry Planet - The Ecoterrorists Acting in "Feral Defense of Wild Nature"

Episode Date: May 9, 2020

Ecoterrorism isn’t a word you hear a lot these days and it’s usually associated with groups like Greenpeace. That might be changing. In 2011, a biotechnology researcher was shot and killed in Mexico. A group called ITS took credit. "We have said it before, we act without any compassion in the feral defense of Wild Nature," reads the group’s manifesto.Is the new generation of activists using violence to save the planet or satisfy a darker, more nihilist urge?You can listen to War College on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. Our website is warcollegepodcast.com. You can reach us on our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/warcollegepodcast/; and on Twitter: @War_College.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. They have unfortunately come to a realization that the only way for them to like see beauty or like feel love is to kind of be running with the wolves covered in the blood of tech millionaires, which is kind of outrageous and like a meme in a way. You're listening to War College, a weekly podcast that brings you the stories from behind the front lines. Here are your hosts. Eco-extremism isn't a word you hear a lot these days, and it's usually associated with groups like Greenpeace. That might be changing. In 2011, a biotechnology researcher was shot and killed in Mexico. A group called ITS took credit.

Quote, we have said it before. We act without any compassion in the feral defense of wild names. nature, reads the group's manifesto. Is the new generation of activists using violence to save the planet or to satisfy a darker, more nihilistic urge? Here to walk us through this today is Jake Hanrahan. Hanrahan is a journalist and documentarian best known as the host of Popular Front, a podcast about the niche and geeky details of modern war.

Jake, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks having me on again, mate. So I wanted to talk about this topic because, like a lot of people in quarantine, I'm bored and I'm playing a lot of video games. And I played the Final Fantasy 7 remake, which centers around the heroes as eco-terrorists. And it occurred to me that this is a thing that I don't know a lot about and I think is important and is going to become increasingly important if global warming is even a tenth as horrifying as people say it is. But kind of these environmental extremist movements, these people that want to be. blow up buildings and kill people for the sake of the planet.

And kind of my knowledge of it stops with, you know, Greenpeace, the ALF, the ELF, and the 1990s. And then after that, I don't know anything about any of this stuff. But you do. You keep up on this stuff. You research it. So kind of what, let's get some basic terms out of the way. So I like to do on this show.

Like, what is the difference between eco-fascism? and ecoterrorism because they are different things. Yeah. So it's all a bit confusing really because, I mean, primarily I'm focusing on like what's called eco-extremism right now because I'm making a documentary about, you know, arguably the most militant eco-extremist group, a group called ITS, which stands for individuals tending towards savagery. But we'll get into that.

So to answer your question, so a lot of people ask me about this, this kind of eco-fascism stuff and I'm not really I'm not really buying it to be honest like all of this eco-fascist stuff that I've seen is just it's just internet fascists that are kind of

tapping into what's popular at the minute do you know what I mean and I don't personally consider that to be eco-fascism you know like Lincola he could be considered an eco-fascist a lot of people say he can't be but you know in his own words he can be but you know

that's a kind of a militant kind of I would say like quite a hard right wing take on environmentalism and you know deep green ecology but you know I don't really see this whole like eco-fascist thing it's just it doesn't really exist outside of the internet

you know I mean sure ecological ideas kind of always been a part of fascism I don't feel like that then suddenly makes them eco-fascist Even if they say, well, our primary goal is to focus on nature, it's like, it's not really, is it? You want to, like, kill the Jews and that. You know what I mean?

Like, and also, right. It's always, it's always like the pretense of fixing the planet, quote, unquote, is just something that's kind of thrown in to lay the ground to work for all the other shit you want to do. Yeah, exactly, exactly that. And, you know, I personally, I'm very, I'm not only, I'm interested in a professional sense in the kind of ecological side of all of this. the, especially the kind of more militant version of it. But I'm also like personally very, you know, I definitely care a lot about the environment,

not on the kind of level of Greenpeace type stuff. I mean, in a very different way, like, I think the way that we live in the cities has completely affected our whole society. You know what I mean? It's not just, oh, start using, you know, paper straws. That to me is a nonsense. And it's just a way for, you know, people to feel good.

I think actually there's, there's a reason we're all so fucking depressed and it comes from partly being kind of stuck in all of this hyper-tech stuff. Now, I'm not a Luddite by any means, but I definitely see there's a lot of truth in the green anarchist movement I think are quite interesting. I think that's got a lot more, you know, solid ideas rather than this kind of green fascist nonsense, which, you know, I mean, who am I to say? But I personally, I just not buying it. Do you know what I mean? There's certainly like a lot of already fascist groups that suddenly now are like, oh yeah, we care about trees too, but, you know, I'm pretty sure they'll tarmac, you know, a field if they want to build their compound easily.

Well, where does, like how, because I feel like I've only started to hear about this eco-fascism portion of it recently, right? Like, how new a strain is this to the, to the online fascist thing? Because, like, as I certainly see it as part of, like, the black pill pathway, right? Like, the kind of the nihilism thing, like, oh, the planet's fucked, so I may as well, X, Y, Yeah, I mean, it's not new. It's not new in the sense of, like, fascist ideology. Like, obviously, even the Nazis were very into, you know, nature and blah, blah, blah. Like, even Hitler loved animals, right?

More than humans. But it's honestly, like, so I tell you where it's, it got really stupid was when that tarant, that fucking, that fascist shooter in New Zealand, you know, when he shot up the synagogue. And honestly, like, you know, his manifesto was. mostly shit posting, right? He was like a 4chan kid. He was from pole, whatever. So a lot of it is nonsense. And I feel like it's, in my opinion, he just put eco-fascism in there, you know,

like a buzzword of everything. Now, you get all these, you know, self-aclaimed far-right researchers, which are mostly like wine mums on Twitter, US ones, thanks for that. And unfortunately, they get a lot more airplay than they should have.

And then it kind of gets skewed into, oh, it's eco-fascar, It's this, it's that. And people, unfortunately, are listening to them a lot more rather than, like, looking into it. You can't just do a scan of a Facebook page and read some tweets from a fascist group and go, right, I know what it is now. I think, you know, ecology is a very interesting philosophical kind of thing, which has been going for a very, very long time in terms of the, like, ideological aspect of it. So it's a very deep-rooted thing. It's not just, oh, you know, we want to burn down this because we love trees. You know, people laugh at it like it is. that even with like the uh the uh the uh the uh elf you know earth liberation front like they actually had very deep deep rooted ideology you know what i mean and it's not just save the trees it's you know we live in this hyper capital world and tech and everything is used to control us and if we didn't if we weren't so urbanized if you like and if industry wasn't the way it was then perhaps we would be able to have this kind of autonomous lifestyle we have communities and all that and you know i i think

there's a lot of, there's a lot of truth to that. And I think anyone, no matter what background you're from, you go in nature, if you're stressed out, you feel good. Like, I don't think there's anyone that could go into nature and really be like, oh, I hate, this is terrible. I'm even more stressed. I think most humans, you know, you touch grass, you just think, you feel better, right? You start naturally healing, I think, in a way, not in some weird hippie way, but you just feel better, right? You see nature, you feel good. So that can appeal to anybody, you know what I mean? So it's quite it's quite a funny concept because that doesn't just mean that then all of a sudden the green anarchist own it or the anarcho-primitivist own it or the green fascist own it you know what I mean it's it's up there in the air if you know what I'm saying yeah everyone's kind of feeling it right now right yeah and certainly in this like you mentioned the whole black pill idea like everybody is very nihilistic I mean even before the coronavirus stuff certainly this idea of like going back to nature and living out free in the wilds is very appealing for a lot of people you know it's appealing to me and I spend a lot of time in nature, you know, like, I'll leave my phone at home and go and spend the day

in the forest, just, you know, walking about, sit down, read a book. But, you know, I don't, like, the reality of it is, it's like, afterwards, it's like, I'm quite happy to go home now. Do you know what I mean? It's like, but then these people take it a step further and they want to live like that or they say they want to live like that, do you know what I mean? But getting onto ITS, they're a whole other thing, man. That's just next level. All right, well, we'll tell us about ITS. Who are they? What do they believe? Then what kind of actions have they taken, if any, Yeah, so ITS is a very small group that's growing out of Mexico. They call themselves eco-extremists.

Basically, I don't want to say their goal, but their dream would be to violently and viciously destroy all of human industry, basically, all civilization destroyed. You know, they idolize, you know, there's a part in one of their kind of, there's a book about the Matassa where they really like this group, the Creek War, these Creek Indians, Native Indians, which were unbelievably brutal, like, you know, fighting against obviously brutal colonizers as well. But you're talking stories where they're cutting babies out of women's bellies, you know, and these weren't even the colonizers. These were like slaves that were captured from the colonizers. And they're like, whatever, smashing babies heads in.

You know what I mean? Like next level depravity, horrible stuff. Which, you know, is like, to the ITS, it's not, I'm not saying that they're like, oh, yeah, we love blood. It's like, well, that's savage. That's how I want to live. They want to live savage. And it's not, it's, it's, it's hard to explain. It's not a leftist tendency at all.

And it's not right wing tendency. It's just like a new mad thing. Like so, how can I, man, it's so crazy. I've been doing all this research on them. I just wrote a report for James and I'm doing this documentary of a popular front about it. And it's just, it's just mad, man. Like they, the one thing to say is they are small and like a lot of people,

people having a go at me saying, why are you even talking about them? I'm a journalist. like fuck off. But it is worth mention because they are spreading now. So there's been ITS attacks in Chile where they've planted IEDs on a bus stop. And it's like, why have you put on a bus stop? Well, they very much believe in indiscriminate attack. They believe that killing civilians is absolutely fine.

They're very happy to do it, you know. So yeah, it's a worry. There's been a weird, there was a pipe bomb in Glasgow. No, sorry, in Edinburgh, I think two years ago. bomb left in a church in Greece, like ITS all claimed it. And then there's a recent thing in America where two tech kind of entrepreneurs went missing were executed. And ITS have claimed it. Now, we don't know if it was them, but you know what I mean?

They've claimed to have killed civilians. They claim to have killed two hikers in Mexico because why not? They found them doing something bad, so they just murdered them. They claim to have killed a priest. One thing we do know is that they definitely sent pipe bombs to the like nanotech universe. Mexico City to the department there, like, you know, quite badly wounded a scientist. They possibly shot one dead, but we don't know if it was them or criminals, but they've claimed it. So, yeah, to give an idea, so these guys love nature. They love this savage nature,

though, and they believe in like this mystical, like, they're kind of paganistic in a way. You know what I mean? Like, they believe that, you know, killing and like washing yourself in blood and scalping and all of that is as part of a mystical thing, almost religious in a way. it's very, very interesting. It's like a purity through violence. Exactly. And nature is inherently violent. Yeah, but the thing they really get wrong, in my opinion, is that they're all about violence, violence, violence.

And it's like nature is violent, but also nature is very soft and kind. You know, it feeds us, it gives us what we need. And they seem to have just thrown all that out, you know what I mean? Because they're extremely angry. I did this weird kind of remote interview with a guy who is seen as the leader of a called Zale, X-A-L-E. And he basically said that, like, look, I was, you know, he was a Neo-Ludite. He was, I think he was like a green anarchist at one point.

Then he was like nihilist. And it basically got to the point where to put it in more like understandable terms, he got so black-pilled that he was like absolutely smash and burn everything. Kill civilians, murder people. You know, they flirt with ISIS. They think ISIS is, you know, they're fine with that. They've even been posting or putting like, passages from a militant, neo-Nazi occult group in the US,

you know, Temple of Blood, Atomoff. Right. Yeah, they like that. As you say, this reminds me of Temple of Blood. Yeah, they love that. The very extreme presentation. Yeah, exactly. You know, the same with Temple of Blood.

They'll have a picture of Hitler and a picture of Stalin on the same dresser. It's not because they're Nat's Bob. It's because, well, Hitler killed millions. Stalin killed millions. That's good. Terror. Absolute terror. I mean, ITS even called themselves,

they call themselves the ITS mafia or like the terrorists. They're like, we are terrorists. Like we bask in that. And I think for people that get into it is people that are so blackpilled that they end up being almost liberated by this thing of not giving a shit what people think. So you know what I mean? Like they're constantly having this back and forth with like former green anarchists, friends of theirs, I think, you know, the way they write it.

And it's clear that they're like, no, you know, any ideas of morality is. is bad and actually it's kind of stupid because they have their own versions of morality in this sense of this savagery killing and you know talking about the cloning list and blah blah so you know I mean they're they're fucking bonkers you know I tell I said to them as well like when I interviewed zale I was kind of like I know this sounds harsh but I wanted to be very clear with them that you know like you know I don't like you guys and I was like if you want to like burn everything you want to kill everything you want to destroy the world you're so sick of it why you just kill yourself you know what I mean and he was kind of a good question

like, you know, maybe one day. Do you know what I mean? And it was like, but for now, my mission is this. And it's, you know, and he sent me this. I sent him questions. The only way, they're very, very secretive. So the only way I could interview him was, it's a very long process, which I won't bore you with.

But in the end, I sent questions, which I don't like doing, but it's the only way. So I sent him questions. And then he recorded himself answering the questions. He'd written out responses. It took months and months. And in the video he sent me, you know, I thought it was just going to be something normal,

like not normal, but, you know, about a clav or whatever. The guy sat in this completely, fucking black room. He's got like a ram's skull on the table. He's got like a loaded pistol on the desk. He's got like three pipe bombs next to him. It's just like, it's next level weird shit, man. It's always fascinating to me how important aesthetic is to all of these groups. You know, you have to project terror. Um, you know, it's not just about it's not just about the killing. It's about the perception that your killing is worse than what everyone else is doing, right? Yeah.

It's about horror. Well, it's a saturated market now. You know what I mean? There's so much killing and hell and horrible motherfuckers that, you know, one group has got to set themselves apart. And that's why I found ITS so interesting is because personally, like, I've never seen anything like this. But from all the weird dark corners of the internet and militant groups and war that I've been researching for like, I don't know how long I've been doing this, like nine years, eight years now. it was like it's almost like ITS is like the

culmination of all of that do you know what I mean it's like angry kids red pilled black pilled green peeled whatever all of that yeah all into kind of militancy and environment and it was just it's like it's like all of that

poured into one you know I mean I don't I think they they kind of call themselves nihilist but then they say they're not and all their all their releases all of their communicates are very like just written in this horrible purple prose like very absurd way of speaking

purposely, I think, to try and obscure what they're really about. But honestly, I don't think they really understand what they're really about, actually. Do you know what I mean? They're just very fucking angry. Is it, so it almost feels like they're using

environmentalism as like a thin veneer to justify just being angry and breaking shit. Maybe, but I'll be honest, a lot of them I have got a very long history of like being in these movements. Like they do understand that they understand like

all of these very intricate kind of ideological movements from before them. But then I don't really know if they understand. I don't want to say they don't understand. But I just feel like there's so many contradictions in their work that it's kind of like what the fuck. But again, they would say, we don't care if you don't get it.

You're meant to, we meant to contradict ourselves. We did it on purpose. You know, they say in their thing, they like tell people to lie. And they, you know, they're constantly saying that it's good to lie. cheat people, like fuck people over, that's fine. You know what I mean? It's very, very nihilistic and just nasty, like nasty,

just really horrible, fucking nasty. And I think that, like, a part of that is just that anger that they have, but then it's also, they've, they have unfortunately come to a realization that the only way for them to, like, see beauty or, like, feel love is to kind of be running with the wolves covered in the blood of tech millionaires, which is kind of outrageous. and like a meme in a way, but actually they have, you know, we know they're planted bombs. You know, they have injured people.

It's not a joke. And again, you know, people say, oh, you're making them seem really big. I said, no, because every time I fucking talk about them, I say how small they are. But it only takes one or two of them to cause an absolute stink. You know what I mean? Like they can cause serious problems with that ideology of we don't care if we kill civilians. How small are they? Do we have any idea of the size and the organization of the group?

No, absolutely no idea. Certainly their support is bigger than, obviously, how many of them there are. But they act in this kind of lone wolf way, you know. So the attack that happened in Chile was a former, like, I kind of know about the group, actually. They were like very hardcore anarchists who kind of went post-anarchists who kind of went just pure militant nihilist and are now like eco-extremists, which is what they call their ideology.

And then they kind of became, an ITS cell. And they, ITS even say from their base in Mexico, not their base, but you know what I mean, wherever they are. They release these communicates and say like, yeah, that was one of our cells, you know. So you don't actually have, you don't have to communicate with ITS and say, hey, this is us, we're going to do this.

What do you reckon? Because they don't give a shit. There is none of that. As far as I'm aware, and I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Certainly there's the Mexican cells obviously have communication, but I think that they operate on a bit of a lone wolf, you know, kind of an ISIS franchise style. not to say that their violence is anywhere near is ISIS

but I just mean in that formation style and you know in Greece there was the conspiracy of cells fire the Anaconeilist militant group very very militant guys and women in Athens specifically some of their members have kind of left CCF behind and basically have

an ITS cell in Greece and in fact one of the ITS guys said to me like hey we potentially have an ITS guy in Greece that you could go and interview, you know, face-to-face sort of thing. I was like, no, because you guys don't believe in anything. So your word means nothing. So they might just go, yeah, let's stab a journalist. Let's just say that.

Why not? You know what I mean? So I was a bit like, maybe not. But also, like, again, it doesn't take a lot of them to do something. Now, Zale is one guy I spoke to. He's the kind of leader. He's a bit, you know, standoffish, obviously. But then I spoke to one of their, like, kind of, I don't know.

know, deputies or whatever. It doesn't work like that, but I don't know what you would call it. You know what I mean? One of their kind of higher-ups, if you like. And me and him had like a four-hour conversation on this, on like one of the, I think it was Torchat, you know, one of these very, very encrypted chats, whatever.

And he was fascinating, man. Like, he was so interesting because it was good because I could be like, you know, completely honest with him. I was like, this is disgusting. Like, what is wrong with you? You know, I was like, you insane. And because of their ideology, they're not the type to go, oh, well, fuck you then.

Interview over. They're like, yeah, we are disgusting. We know it's awful to you and we don't care. And in the end, we had this weird conversation where he said to me, he's like, oh, you've made me think of a few things. Maybe I, you know what I mean? And it was like, I almost felt like a fucking counsellor. You know what I mean?

And it's not to say that they're not, they don't have very strong beliefs, but certainly there's a hell of a lot of anger there. You know what I mean? Which is normal. I get it. But I feel like their ideology is anger towards the modern world more than anything. Which, you know, I guess they would say, yeah, probably it is. but I mean anger in a very chaotic way.

Weird question. How much of the ideological basis for ITS and other groups comes from like Kaczynski? No, good question. That's what I keep thinking about over and over again as we're talking about this. So Kaczynski, so anyone doesn't know, Ted Kaczynski, Unabomber. He, there's a really interesting like back and forth with letters basically between ITS and Ted Kaczynski in the early days. Because when ITS first came out, I think 2011 maybe.

Sorry, I don't have my notes. But anyway, when they first kind of came out and they did these more controlled, more targeted, like, letter bombings in Mexico City, they were very much considered like an extremely hardcore green anarchist, maybe like nihilist, green nihilist kind of group. And their ideology is certainly kind of, I would say, unraveled. but, you know, it's very, their ideology is built up to something else now. But when they began, certainly their ideas were definitely built upon certain aspects of Ted Kaczynski's writings.

And they seem to be more, like, their way they would word things was more of a leftist kind of vibe as well, which some people might laugh saying that, but, you know, in the Green Anarchist world, Ted Kaczynski has a lot of fans, you know, in the left, if you like, left, right, what does it even mean? but you know what I'm saying. Right. And the industrial society in its future is the, what I would call the manifesto. And if you haven't read it, you know, I would say you should. If this is something that's of interest to you and you haven't read industrial society in its future, you should take a look at it.

I think you'll see a lot of underpinnings for a lot of the extremist groups that are operating in the space now, I think. Well, that's the interesting thing. about Ted Kaczynski is that everyone from like hardcore leftists to fascists find some kind of reasoning in his work and you know and if you're not if you're a nuanced person who thinks and you're not

a fucking shrill person that screams about everything being this and that if you read Kaczynski's manifesto you will probably go he's got a point there there's a point with that now obviously his indiscriminate bombings were fucking ridiculous these targets were a joke

and he's frankly a complete ego maniac but he has a lot of good points right so iat yes also kind of clocked that but then they kind of there was there was this group called uh was it ultimate ultima ultima reducto i think it is we're kind of translating kaczynski's work into spanish which obviously in mexico they speak spanish so i think that's how they ended up coming across all the kaczynski stuff and eventually they kind of fell out with kizinski in in the sense of like publicly and were like kaczynski's a fucking idiot he's an ideologue blah blah blah and There's actually some pretty good, like, criticisms of Kaczynski's work written by ITS.

I don't know if they're in ITS, but they're certainly like ITS, like fanboys, certainly, like people that like what they're doing. And it's in one of, you know, there's two compilations from Little Black Cart, Atasa and Atasa too, which are like compilations about eco-extremism and ITS and very useful. Like, people should definitely read them to understand them. But yeah, there's a lot of criticism against, you. Ted Kaczynski from them, which is actually, you know, it's like, yeah, they've got a point. Unfortunately, instead of being like, okay, well, let's form something more useful to people, they went the way of let's burn everything down, you know, including women, children, everybody that's a civilian.

So they talk about freedom, but, you know, they want to destroy the freedom of anybody that doesn't completely agree with them. They don't, they don't even want it. They just don't care if they do, you know what I mean, which is, I mean, I asked Zail, the leader. I said, well, why is it you think it's okay to kill civilians? And he was like, it's not okay. It's not not okay. You know what I mean?

He's like, it's just, if it happens, who cares? And I was like, that's so fucking dangerous that idea, you know what I mean? And I think he means it, you know? Yeah. I mean, what do you talk about someone like this? What do you talk about for four hours with someone like this? Like, how do you keep from, how do you keep your head? Do you know what?

It's never, it's, it's, my. My mate asked me that the other day. I was listening to some Order of Nine Angles, blah, blah, I was listening to some Order of Nine Angles audiobook the other day, like, as I was going to sleep. And I was talking to my mate about it, and he was like, are you, are you like, are you like, I know, but he was like, do you believe in that shit or something?

And I was like, what the fuck? Like, no, man. And, like, he's like, oh, do you ever get, like, do you feel like you get enjoying it? And I just don't, I just, I can't even, I don't get that. Like, why, no? Like, it's work, you know what I mean? And it's very, very interesting to me. But that's it, isn't it?

You know what I mean? Like, it's very interesting. So I'll just keep listening and keep getting involved. And it's, I just, I mean, man,

like, you know, it doesn't really bother me. Like, what bothers me is being out in the field and you see death and people's sad. And to when it's the death, seeing people die is almost not as bad as seeing, like,

people trying to live, if you know what I mean. You know, people fucking struggling. Like, that kills me. Seeing like kids and all of that. And,

you know, just normal people trying to get by, affected by the war when they didn't even, you know, they're not even involved. They just have, they're just involved because it's there. And that is like that, obviously that is hard to kind of keep your head.

But just researching all this stuff, man. I don't know, mate. It doesn't really, I like it. It's interesting. Obviously, you'll read something and you'd be like, that's enough for tonight and that's that. And you just compartmentalise it. You go, right, we're done with that. Now I'll go and watch, you know, three hours of UFO videos that are just funny.

Or I'll go and play Final Fantasy 7. I think I did about a five-hour stint the other day. Fucking that was mad. But yeah, I don't know, man. It's just one of them ones on it. Like, I just find it very interesting. So I just, all the time, I'm into it. All right, we're going to pause here for a break.

You are listening to War College. We are on with Jake Hanrahan talking about eco-terrorism. All right. Thank you for listening to War College. We are back on with Jake Hanrahan talking about eco-terrorism. Why change tracks a little bit? Why does it seem to be, ITS seem to be based in Latin America? Why is that kind of the flashpoint?

That is a good question, man. I mean, there's a lot of history, obviously, Mexico with colonialism and you know marauders coming in and just fucking taking everything and whatever

and well in regards to the Spanish element rather than just Mexico you know what I mean like a lot of it is about that but I think it just happened to be that way like Ultima Reducto

we're translating you know Ted Kaczynski's works into Spanish there's quite a big green anarchists nihilists whatever community in Mexico because obviously Mexico is just a very interesting place with all mad shit happening all the time.

So obviously that would be there. And I think these lot just picked it up. And that's how it happened, man. And there's a big, you know, there's a very big kind of anarchist movement in South America, Latin America. In Chile, to be honest, like the anarchists in Chile are so militant and they go so hard. And they're very, like, they're not kids messing about. They know what they're doing. You know what I mean?

they're very interested in like ideas and they read a lot and and then when they do the violence they fucking do it so it wasn't a surprise for me that the kind of um that that uh i t s a cell popped up there it was actually i was like yeah i can see it and in fact i do remember probably like six or seven years ago an anachonialist group set fire to a fucking school in uh in chili and i remember i read it on like uh was it three two four five and I was just like oh fucking hell and the reason for it was so ridiculous and absurd you know what I mean like burn a fucking school down like great idiots um so you know it wasn't when I heard other than ITSL in Chile and they left the fucking pipe bomb I think they left two pipe bombs at two bus stops and like injured people no one died I don't think but they arrested them in the end they arrested two of them I think and yeah it's it's like the groundwork was already there do you know what I mean and with you know that part of the world it's a hell of a lot easier to get hold of firearms and bombs and all of that was you know what I mean and with you know that part of the world it's a hell of a lot easier to get hold of firearms and bombs and all of that was. without coming under the radar of the authorities. I mean, Mexico, man, fuck.

It's not hard to get weapons there. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, these guys just, I think they just happen to spring up like that from there. And obviously, a lot of people across the world have seen it. And I'm like, oh, all right, like, yeah, we like a bit of that. We'll do it. And, you know, they release stuff in English as well. Yeah, who are the other groups?

Or is ITS kind of the main one right now? Yeah, so you get ITS and then you get like the cells, which end up with these absolutely amazing names. Like if you think conspiracy of cells fire, the anarcho-nihilists in Greece is anything to go by. Like that's nothing, mate. Like you've got groups, I can't remember exactly, but there's groups that are called like the wild spirits of the fiery trees.

You know what I mean? Like literally that's the kind of names that they have. So you get all these crazy groups, which to be honest are just like, I think previous militant anarchists or militant nihilists that have gone to the dark, darkest side, if you like. You know what I mean?

It's not green and black or red and black, or even just the black flag. It's just like the black pill now. You know what I mean? It's just they go so deep, in it, that they almost lose themselves. And then I think they just do an attack and they go, yeah, okay, we're now this.

You know what I mean? You know, the other guys, they want to do that. Well, we're going to, there's a few of them will come together and maybe say, okay, we're the, I don't know, the pixies in the forest with burning hair or whatever the fuck they want to call themselves. You know what I mean?

So it just kind of, it spreads like that. But in Greece, I know that there's, like quite a long history of like um you know like chaos i don't mean chaos as in you know like the you know like the kind of um mystical kind of sense of chaos right yeah hail hail eras yeah exactly yeah so there's a lot of that kind of stuff within like anarchist movements old anarchist movements there um so it wasn't a surprise me that you know some of this eco extremist stuff would kind of take hold and i think there is something to be written about the connections conspiracy of cells fire and ITS because the like CCF were kind of saying a lot of what

ITS was saying like 10 years ago you know what I mean and yeah I don't know I would definitely say that them to are very similar I mean CCF is nowhere near as extreme or kind of you know they're not then I think they're a bit more aware of themselves than ITS are but you know they've done a lot more militant shit but there's definitely a connection there What kind of world do they want? It sounds like what you're describing is kind of just destruction for destruction's sake at the moment. What is built after that? Or is it just about creating a more violent world?

So there's no, there is no after that. They're not revolutionary. You know what I mean? I mean, Zail said to me something that I actually, you know, agreed with him. I think he's, from what he was saying to me, I think it's clear to him that he's quite, he was probably at one point in his life quite interested in like post-leftism because he was saying,

he said this line where he's like, oh, the commies think that there's going to be this, you know, proletariat revolution, it's never coming. The anarchists think they're going to get their autonomous regions. It's never coming. You know what I mean? He was very aware that the revolution is not coming, which, you know, a global revolution is just not happening.

You know what I'm saying? Like the idea that someone is going to overthrow this insane, level of power that all these fucking governments have now. Come on. Like it's not happening. So I think with that, they've took that to the kind of end degree where they're like, no. So basically they say, they say we live in the present. We're not about what we're, we're not working towards anything.

We, a kill is a victory. You know what I'm saying? A destructive act is a victory. And in the essence of the victory, they'll already live in what they want to do. You see what I mean? So there's a very telling kind of. poem written in Atasa that one of the ITS people wrote and you know it's it's about basically I think what is they go a man and a woman go and commit a murder um they go from their normal lives like they

work in an office or whatever they go from their normal lives you know put on their kit they go and commit a murder in the name of um you know ITS and then they go and have sex in the forest with the blood still on their hands and there's actually some quite like like kind of interesting lines in it because you realize that it's, I don't know, it's this idea that the act in itself is bigger than anything that will come after it or before it or do you know what I mean? It's like, that is enough, which I can understand in some degree because, like, someone said to me about the Hong Kong protesters, they're obviously not going to win and it's never going to lead to anything.

And they said, well, no, the fact that they even fought is a win in itself. Like, do you know what I mean? The fact that they have fought, that is good because you cannot just be stepped on. You know what I mean? I think the second people stop even trying to not be stepped on. I mean, you know, is it a failure that they didn't win? I'd say that it's a victory that they even came together and fought. Now, with the Hong Kong protesters in the future, maybe another generation will go,

remember what they did, we can do it, and then they will get victory. But ITS don't even want to do that. They're not about that, man. They just want to run with the wolves, blow things up, kill it the industrial society for the sake of the act of doing it because that is them. It's fuck you, Dad, on. occultism and militancy. Like, it's very fucking strange.

But do you know what I mean? It's really out there like that. And actually, it does make sense to me in a way. It's not good, but it makes sense in that, you know, being very angry at the world and just lashing out is enough to base your ideas on, I think. Now, they'll probably listen to this and be like, ah, he's a key doesn't get it. He's blah, blah, blah. But to me, I really think that's what it is, you know? Well, I think that it kind of reflects this problem in.

in all political groups right now, in my opinion, where nobody seems to have a vision of what a better world is and how to get there at all. Maybe that's a particularly American problem, but when I look at the political parties here, it's about maintaining status quo or return to something that never really existed. No one is talking about how to get to a better future.

Everyone is just trying to maintain what's going on now. So it makes it like even I, you know, even ISIS had a dream of, of something. Right. The caliphate, right? You know, there was, there was a goal. And that's kind of, like you said, that's what's heartening about. Part of what's heartening about Hong Kong is they were fighting. There were, there were, there were, there were, you know, they had specific things that they wanted.

But increasingly, I'm seeing, I am seeing different variations of, you know, I hate to say this, but like, Joker ideas. theology. Yeah. Just burn it all down. Yeah, but I mean, I think it's understandable in a way. I mean, I certainly get a lot of it. You know, I mean, certainly the people that have that kind of thought would say you don't get it. But I do, you know, I've been a fucking angry young man.

You know what I mean? And most people would probably say I still am an angry young man. You know what I mean? But, you know, that level of rage where you feel like there's just nothing you can actually do, you know what I mean? it's horrible and you know I don't think that you know shit posting about Stalin or the revolution or any of that shit like that's not going to do anything it's just it's just like wanking off in front of the mirror you know what I mean that is absolutely useless so then a lot of people just get very disenfranchised from all of that nonsense um and you know they're angry the world

is angry the world is the world is on its head you know I mean people say oh well you know less people are dying and you haven't the world wars has not been any world wars and it It's really so stupid to say that. It's like what? You think because we didn't live for a world war that everything is actually not that bad relatively. Well, firstly, we only live on our own time. And secondly, like, the annoying, gnawing itch

that you can't reach is almost worse than be able to confront something head on. Well, I think it's definitely worse personally. Do you know what I mean? I'd rather confront something, get it done and move on. But then it's like, well, we can't even do that. Because, again, a lot of the problems are kind of abstract, you know? And I think people, especially,

politically motivated people should be a little bit more honest in saying, I don't really know, I don't really know why, I don't know how, because nobody really does, I don't think, you know what I mean? But I would say that the good thing to do is that people should just do act now. I mean, if there's anything good to be taken from ITES, it's the idea of like forget about the revolution, act in the present, like help people, but not how they do it. They want to just kill.

I don't mean that at all. I mean, help people out, you know, mutual aid or look after your neighbour or just, see me, man, I've been saying this. I'm sick of all this, like, you know, like very built up radical politics because actually it's all just naval gazing in the end. The best thing to do is to just get back to community politics and looking after your people. And again, by your people, I don't mean, I mean anyone that's in your community, you know what I mean? Anyone that's your friend, anyone that's your family, like look after each other, look after people that don't have a lot. I think that's just better.

People need a more simple message. And instead it's like, oh, what, you don't believe in, you don't think. North Korea is good, liberal. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it is so pointless. So my point here is that I think that like a lot of people are feeling that like just tired and I just like, please everybody shut the fuck up with this stuff. So when you get that, you either get to the point where you kind of go,

I'm kind of apolitical now or you maybe just say what I'm saying. Like, yeah, let's just help out people that we can instead of ranting about the revolution. Or you go fully blackpilled and you end up ITS vire. You know what I mean? Or fucking school shooter shit. So it's very dangerous, actually, I think, in that respect. Because, okay, ITS is small and a lot of people are not going to build pipe bombs. But, man, I tell you what?

So I said to Zale, what do you think is going to be the future for ITS? And he said, well, hopefully we'll carry out much bigger attacks, will become a genuine problem for the governments and, you know, more people will die sort of thing. And it's like, wow, all right. You know, like great five-step plan there. and but that is the idea of these people you know what I mean they're so sick of everything and again they will do it

some of them have done it it it's not like you know somebody say there's no members in OTS there is made there is solid evidence there is you know they blew up fucking scientists in Mexico City in the university and again I've got a big thread on Twitter where there's a lot of evidence that they've been building bombs here and there

it's not all bullshit and it is definitely if something bad is happening as a journalist you should be looking at it and saying hey everybody should know about this it's not our job to, we're not the fucking police, definitely not. But it's our job to say, hey, check this out. And maybe then in future people will be a little bit more prepared if they do do something. Do you know what I mean?

That's the way I see it anyway. Yeah. And you're kind of one of the only people I know, I'm sure there are others, but that is looking at this. Why do you think that there is, I wouldn't call it a disinterest, but why don't I see more about them in other news sources, do you think? Well, there's people doing a hell of a lot better work on them than me. Unfortunately, one of those guys died, anaconellist guy, he's very activist type, but a guy called Aragon Bang was the guy that put together like Atasa 1 and 2.

The books that give all the details about ITS. And it's so funny this, in America, a load of American anarchists like hate him and start calling him a fascist for doing it. And they started stealing the books at book fairs, like really petty shit. like, oh, sorry for informing people about stuff. John Jacoby, he's, you know, he's very good at this. But I think to answer your question, it's just so fucking niche, man. You know what I mean?

It's very my remit. Like, I like things that are undiscovered, underreported, and are weird, you know, very into weird stuff. Like, it's not easy to put a handle on what ITS is, which is why so many people just say they're eco-fascists, you know, and it's like they're not, I mean, certainly they don't care about fascism. well, I mean, they're not against fascism. Definitely not. They're not. They don't care.

You know, they're like, oh, that's a Western creation. We're above it. You know, they have a very high opinion of themselves. Like, they think they're like the fucking dogs bullocks. They think they're like the Gucci of like extremist ideas. You know, they're very, very full of themselves. But it's just not easy to put a handle on it correctly on what they are. And to be honest, every time I think I get it, I'll read something else. I'm like, fuck, man, I might have been wrong about that.

So, you know, in six months, I might look at this and go, fuck you're really, wrong about that. I don't think so. I think I've got a handle on it, you know, but, you know, to be honest, it's very tricky. So, you know, like I said, James, I hate just James. Them guys were like, hey, we want to do a report on it. Can you write it? And I was like, well, that's good. Like, that's good that people are finally paying attention because, I don't know, mate, what if they, what if all it takes is one ITS maniac? Because a lot of them do act in Europe, act on their own, right? What if one guy builds a very effective, and he's not spoken to anyone, he's not on anyone's radar. What if one guy builds a pipe bomb and puts it on a bus in

London? Horrific, horrific problems, right? So then people will go, shit, we need to pay attention to them. So, you know what I mean? It's all very well saying, well, what's the point? They're very small, but, mate, they're saying they want to murder people at random. I think you should look at that. Do you know what I mean? If you don't have the capabilities and you're saying now, I would be like, oh, check that out, what's going on? But when they do have the capabilities and have done it, and sharing tips on how to build pipe bombs with all their groups, then I think it's worth looking at. Do you know what I mean?

But again, everyone's fucking obsessed with like ISIS or fucking white nationalists and blah, blah, which is definitely very good to, we need to be obsessed with that. Don't get me wrong. But like it's almost like people just think, well, that's not a problem because this is a problem. It's like, well, no, they can both be problems, mate. You know what I mean? And actually, ITS brings in, they like jihadis. You know, they're a fascist that they like.

There is, you know, leftist militants that they like. I mean, they have a whole part in a TASA that they've written about anarchists in like 1800s, 1900s, like through history of doing indiscriminate attacks, which, you know, as much as a lot of anarchists like to kind of not talk about that, there's been some very brutal indiscriminate anarchist attacks where hundreds of civilians have died and they don't care. So, again, they've got, they're taking bits of ideology from everywhere and like putting it into like a big cake. and then that's the ITS cake, if you like. But I've been in lockdown too long, you can tell, I'm losing my fucking mind. But you get what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Do you think, like, the fuzzy nature of the ideology is kind of part of it, like all the contradictions and everything? Well, it's this, right? So it's either they, it's, they're, like, very clever in how they're crafting it and they're contradicting themselves to confuse everybody, or they're just contradicting themselves. them themselves and then after the fact they go ha yeah stupid western ideals industrial person we we didn't

we didn't even mean that we just said it to fuck with you we don't care you know what i mean so it's it's very easy for them to go wrong and then just go yeah sure whatever i mean there almost is no wrong it's like a group that can't misstep right for them because you know imagine they blow up oh man the bomb went off at the wrong place and um you know 12 children are dead they'll just go yeah all right So, good. Why do we care? You know what I mean? So obviously, I'm sure deep deep in there, you know,

their darkest thoughts when they're in beds at night, they'll fucking feel that. They've done that. But outwardly, that to them would still believe it or not be a victory. Yeah. You know, they want to run on the planes like wild men and, you know, just slaughter. Or so they say, so I don't think that there's any way they can really do a bad attack. You know what I mean?

Fuck, man. When I was doing my research, there was some weird post, which they put out there, where someone basically, like, made a bomb out, not even a bomb. Like, they just set some matches on fire in like a very strange cone. And it made, I think it made a fire in a mall. Like, it burned a bin. Like, it was that little. And they wrote about it and were like, ha, here's an attack from ITS.

You know what I mean? It was like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Like, so, you know, and people are laughing at them. And they're like, yeah, we don't care, whatever. So they're very, they think they're above everybody. And that's dangerous, you know. They don't answer to anyone. That's it.

They don't answer to anyone in any way apart from their own ideas, which, I don't know, it's tricky. Which are confused at the very least. Very much so. Do we have any sense of how law enforcement's treating them? That's a good question. I don't know about actually. I mean, I know in Mexico they don't really take it seriously because, you know, they claim a lot of attacks. that are just like not really anything,

anything to do with them. You know, like they'll claim an attack and people are like, was that them? I mean, to be honest, they claimed this attack of these two people executed in the US. These tech millionaires, as a woman and a man, I forget their names. Unfortunately, I don't have it with me.

But, you know, they claimed that. And I looked at it and I was like, maybe, you know, it's a very weird situation. There's a video where two people are like leading these people. They take them away and execute them. But also that could be someone that hired a hit man. You know what I mean? Because of some kind of business deal gone wrong.

And they happen to hear about it before anyone else somehow. And we're like, oh, we should claim that. You know what I mean? So I don't know. It's very weird to think that the police can really check in on them when there's so many red herrings. Do you know what I mean? And also they've got all this other stuff going on.

But I know that in Scotland, for example, it was really weird. There was like this pipe bomb was left, I think, at a cenotaph in Edinburgh. And there was one left in the road near a bus stop, again kind of ITS 101 and a little robot was sent in to detonate it and there was just really very little press on it there was just nothing really I mean you would think

that a random pipe bomb is found in the road in Edinburgh like a massive tourist town you would think there's a little I'd be like whoa who the fuck is building pipe bombs now I'm sure they're doing something behind the scenes but certainly it didn't look like a lot was going on you know what I mean it's but it's trick in it I mean imagine you find a pipe bomb

and some mental blog on the internet that's mostly written in Spanish says it was them. Like, how do you even, what do you do? How do you trace that? You know what I mean? I know there's ways forensically, but it is hard to, I think it'd be, and so another thing that ITS say as well, you know, they say to live a double life.

They even have instructions on how to do it in Atasa, which, to be honest, they're not great instructions. It's a bit like it feels like a kid has written it in places. But, like, they're all about that. In fact, there was a guy that got doxed, Abe, or have you say his name. He was just like this fucking lawyer And he was one of the biggest, like, I think, I didn't really check the story out too much

because there was so much like radical politics people arguing over it. But basically the long and short of it is that he was a lawyer in America, I think it was, who was extremely pro-ITS and was writing all these things in English about them, like helping them spread their propaganda. And then he got docks and he was like some fat lawyer. And he would just, it's not a guy that you would think, oh yeah, I bet he's involved with an,

cultist, nihilist, militant group that wants to kill everyone. Do you know what I mean? So they're telling people to live a double life. I mean, at least with ISIS, unfortunately, you know, there's a lot of racial profiling and religious issues with tracking them. But at least with ISIS, the cops can go, right, mosques, let's go there and see what's going on. Do you know what I mean? With ITS, it's like, what the fuck do you even, what did you do about that? Do you think, or let me phrase this a different way, right? Earlier you called like mainstream fascism researchers, I think, like, leftist wine mobs. Yeah, it's a bit harsh.

It's, I mean, you know. The ones that get a hell of, there's a lot of grifters, man. The ones that get a hell of a lot of attention are getting too much. And the ones like fucking Sarah Hightower that should be getting a lot more attention, don't get it. And that pisses me off, man. And you get, like, you get a lot of people that really have refused to understand. I think, like, far right politics is incredibly interesting, very, very intricate

and very fucking dangerous. Like just to put that out, I am completely 100% fucking against it. It's against everything I believe in. However, in this last year, I've probably read more books about far right people, written by far right people. I've read siege fucking twice because you have to get in their head and understand it. Otherwise, how are you going to stop it? How are you going to accurately say what's going on? But then you get a lot of people.

They suddenly start getting their 20,000 followers. They do a long thousand tweet thread and they infiltrate a few telegram groups. And before you know it, they've got jobs fucking advising people on how to tackle it. And I look at it and I'm like, mate, like, what are you talking about? You know, really bad. Like, the problem is as well, like a lot of them, people have had to go at me. You know, someone said, oh, you know, Weave, right? Weaves are Nazi.

Like, weave is a piece of shit. Don't get me wrong. Like, but, and he has a swastick tattoo, sure. But there's levels to it. So Weave, his ideology is disgusting. But he has described himself as a Francoist, right? I remember a point in that actually he's not Natsok. he's a Francoist, oh, does it matter?

I was like, it does matter because we're meant to be researching this shit. So we can't just go, he's that, because then you'll start realizing, when you know the real different factions, yeah, then you know which groups are working together. Do you know what I mean? It's not just, oh, they're all far right. Right, because these people, the people you're researching absolutely care about these distinctions. Exactly, exactly.

That's their life. The minute details, the intricacies of their. ideology, as abhorrent as it is, is everything to them. You're right. Yeah. And if you don't have a handle on that and you don't understand, like, how the infighting of the different factions, then you're really not, you're really, you really don't understand them. Also, everyone, Sarah Hightower, you're right, is a treasure. Everyone should be following her on Twitter. Yeah, she's bonkers, bless her, but she's excellent. She's the best. She absolutely knows what's going on.

What do you think these mainstream researchers get wrong, big picture then, when they're doing reporting on this stuff, other than just not understanding the different factions? As I think, like, the big thing that comes to mind is, like, do you know who Timothy Snyder is? No. He wrote a really excellent book called Bloodlands. that's about the genocide that happens in Ukraine kind of during not just World War II, but everything kind of around World War II, like how much it sucked to be stuck between Hitler and Stalin.

And he's a fascism researcher mainstream. It really went hard on the Trump as a fascist. We should all be terrified thing. And I'm wondering, how do you research this stuff and keep your head and kind of know what's real and what's fake and what's dangerous and what's not? And what are people getting wrong? Well, first, I don't want to sound like a big shot. Like, I don't know always. You know, I'm always learning with this stuff.

I just read this book about Bravick, which, well, it wasn't about Bravick. It was about, like, the European Far Right, which I read that and I was like, wow, I've really misunderstood a lot. You know what I mean? So first, I think just be honest and be like, I never call yourself a fucking egg. expert for a start. And secondly, just be honest and be like, yeah, I think it's this. We're still learning, like, and work together with other people. That's what you have to do. You know what I mean? You really need to work with other people. Like, there's a little team I work with at the minute. It's just like so unbelievably useful to have like four or five people that are all researching different parts of

something deeply as you are. And then you share the info. And then you go, it's this. And you go, oh, no, no, you're wrong, Jake. It's this. Oh, am I? Okay, cool. Nice one. Got it, got it. So that's really used for work together rather than just like, right, I need to get my clout on the Twitter for the day. And secondly, I think a lot of these, like, everything is fascist, everything is fascist. Like, you know, who's that fucking lunatic that went after like Chapo Trappos recently? I don't even fucking care about Trappo Chapos. Oh, is it, Gwynne. Yeah, that's it.

Like, you know, Chapo's like fucking lame, I think. I'm not interested in it. And their foreign policy takes are embarrassing. But, you know, there's people around it, I think are very fucking funny. And Bray Speldon is very, like, I like. that guy a lot. He does the Trunonon podcast. Anyway, so she does like a billion tweet thread about how Chapo are actually fascists because they have like edgy jokes that you shouldn't probably say or wouldn't approve of. Now that to me is a very big waste of energy. You've just spent all of this

time, you create this big cuffle, all this hassle about a fucking podcast that is like, you know, it's a milk toast kind of commie lefty thing. But like, it's good. It's good for what it is. You know what I mean? Like, sure, whatever. Like, educate a lot of... An avowedly, like, leftist and edge lord comedy podcast. Yes, exactly. And it is what it is.

Like, fine. Like, I don't listen to it. I don't really like it. But let them do it. Like, what's wrong with that? Like, why then? Are you trying to turn people... Like, she's trying to get them people to cancel their Patreon to them.

And it's like, what a waste of energy. So the problem is that there's a lot of very sensitive, like, you know, nice, happy, liberal types. Well, they call them radlibs, right? I hate to bring all this stupid internet language into it, but you actually have to because that is the kind of, it's actually in the center of a lot of the researching issues now. So you get these radical liberals, they call them, you know, people that think they're leftists, but actually are like, let's get warringing. You know what I mean? So you got them that are offended by everything. So the professionally offended slash right-wing activist turned fascist investigator is one of the most useless things I've ever seen on Twitter.

because they'll like, you know, someone will say something that, I don't know, they don't like, and then all of a sudden they pile on them. And it's like, well, how about, instead of doing that, you shut the fuck up and then you look at this group that is like trying to kill people. And do you know what I mean? Well, no, Brace Belden, who is Jewish, by the way, made a joke and had an SS flag in a photo, which again was a joke. I mean, I wouldn't fucking do it, but that's him, isn't it? That's his thing. Like, he does the flag. It's funny. Like, why in the fuck would you focus on that? people say to me well Jake we can focus on both things I say well why bother there's one group that are fascists and want to kill people and there's one group having jokes that you don't like

sorry you don't like the jokes if you don't like it fucking move on do you know what I mean like we've seen unfortunately there's a little resurgence in cancel culture whilst lockdown is on because obviously these these fucking gremlins are bored right but it's it's very good because I'm seeing I think from my perspective and and like I should put this out there like I mean you ask anyone they'll tell you yeah Jake's a leftist like a little lefty, you know what I mean? It's not like I'm on the fucking side of like, you know, fascia or whatever, but it's like these

these call out people, it's dead. Cancel culture is dead, I think, and there's a really interesting way that the left have actually started combating, I mean real left, I don't mean I'm crying because, whatever. And like, you know, like, I'm talking about union, social movements and stuff like that. And they're just like, eh, well, this person's

cancelled, they said this, whatever, fuck off. Do you know what I mean? That's the way it's being dealt with and that's good. we're busy striking and building infrastructure we don't need to be worrying about what people are talking about on Twitter right yeah yeah yeah oxygen out of the room and no one really exactly don't like really like don't worry about that mean too much it would be gone in two weeks you know what I mean now that's not to say that the whole internet culture builds and breeds all of this far right mad shit eco extremist shit of course it does but just pick your battles ain't it just pick your battles like look where the problem is rather than what's irritating you I think But, you know, I'm very, I'm always, like, cussing people off. Because I'm, you know, I'm a fucking gobshite, you know what I'm like. But I do think there is some reason to it because it's almost like, just stop wasting time.

I think there's a lot of time being wasted. And there's actually not a lot of time because the next attack it's going to happen. There's something around the corner, mate, I'm telling you, there's something, I can just feel it. You know what I mean? Like, I think all of this atom waft, the massive, massive surge of neo-Nazism and far-right fascist shit in America. There's no way that you're over that tide, I don't think. I think it's not going to go out like that. You know what I'm saying? So I just, you know, and I'm very much in favor of if you want to be this gender, absolutely, I don't leave everybody alone is my opinion. You want to be

a man, you want to be whatever you want. Fine, absolutely. Let them be that. But then at the same time, if you're going to be a far right researcher, maybe focus more on the people that are posing the real threat rather than upsetting people on the internet. Do you know what I mean? It's just, just click the X. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's more than ever, it's easier to just walk out of the room and not engage. Well, not on fucking lockdown it, but I know what you mean, yeah. Yeah, fair, fair. Let me ask you this kind of as an outro, since we're talking, we touched on Breivik. Have you read this book, one of us?

No, it's funny you mentioned that my friend, Ali Winston, you know, he's a great journalist. He literally this morning said to me, he was like, you should read this, because I've not Reddit man, is it good? No, it's one of those that I've been like circling around reading. I just, I just finished this like 800 book page book about Nixon. That was really excellent and I think really taught me a lot about like America today and why Trump is probably going to win again. And I'm kind of looking for the next giant book to sink into and I think I'm going to do that. Is it a biggie? One of us. Yeah, let me see here how long it is. It's compelling. podcasting just like scrolling on an Amazon page to get a to get a yeah 560 pages yeah pass pass

don't expect me to read that no I'm joking I'll get it man definitely I will definitely get that and there's also um this one that I mentioned today it's called uh in the tracks of Bravick and it's basically just like I would say it's essential reading for anyone that is trying to research far right uh the European far right which you know if you're doing American far right. You have to know about the European far right because obviously that influenced a lot of it. And it's just incredible.

It's very boring the way it's written because it's academic, you know what I mean? But it's so interesting. Like, they're just, all the connections are there. And it's like to then, so again,

I think my point is like after reading something like that, like I finished it this morning, after reading something like that, and then seeing like some 50 tweet fucking thread about this Jewish guy is a Nazi because he said a word I don't like on a podcast, it's like, come on, you know, like, come on. And to what I was saying about like mainstream researchers,

I didn't mean mainstream, I meant like certain researchers on Twitter. Like the mainstream, a lot of the mainstream, well, I shouldn't say mainstream. I'll tell you what it is. The people doing the best work on like the far right research are writing books and have written the books. You know what I mean? Like Black Sun is an absolute essential read. Homeland, you know, is actually an essential read, I would say, in terms of the UK, far right.

So their books have been written. It's just people have got to pick them up, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think it's important to understand kind of what you just hinted at that these groups don't exist in a vacuum. They're all watching each other and they're all talking to each other. Even if they don't necessarily all believe the same thing, there's flows of information there, right? Yeah, exactly. And they're all in the same cesspit. You know what I mean?

It's like with, so I'd say this is a weird example, but I've just been writing my book. So that's on my mind. So in the Okmeidan in Istanbul, right? When there was years ago I was reporting there and there was, there's all these different militant groups operate there. So you've got the, they're like hardcore anarchists. They're a hardcore communist. There's PKK.

There's all of this stuff. And none of the groups like each other, right? But they kind of, they exist together. And they just have to get on because they're all against at least the government. It's the same with the fascists. There might be groups that really hate each other, but they're always going to side with each other rather than the Libs or Normies or whatever the fucking bullshit they want to come up with.

Do you know what I mean? So they're like I said, they're all revolving in the same atmosphere, even if they're not like, you know, the same fucking planet or whatever. Metaphor is coming out my eyes today. Do you know what I mean?

Like, they're all there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is what lockdown is doing to all of us. Mate, my brain is scrambled, man. Like, I feel like I can't, I've been reading and getting, like, it's the only thing I can concentrate on the minute is reading. But other than that, it's just like, it's fucked, mate.

I keep saying the way it makes me feel is that everything's nothing, like everything's happening all at the same time while nothing is happening. That's a great way. Yeah, yeah, really. It's like stuck in this, like, vacuum is shit, man. Yeah, it's very, it is very bizarre. It's a very bizarre time to live. Yeah, it's depressing, man.

And there's a lot of thing where a lot of people are like, oh, get all these projects, done and I feel like we're on the seventh week of lockdown here in the UK now and I'm doing work but it's actually slowed down I'm just like I've lost the energy for it you know what I mean it's just yeah I'm in the same place yeah it's weird man it's very weird yeah I just get to the end of the week and I'm just completely I got nothing I got nothing in the tank yeah that's what I was saying on Twitter I was like somebody please invite me on your fucking podcast I want to talk about something my brain is just dying you know what I mean well here we are yeah man Thanks very much.

Yeah, absolutely. Jake Hanrahan, thank you for coming on to War College and walking us through all of this. Where can people find your work? And what do you have coming out? So if you go to patreon.com slash popularfront, that is where you can subscribe to Popular Front. But also you can get all the shit free as well at Popularfront.com. But then to follow all my other work, I would say go to my Twitter. Twitter.com slash Jake underscore Hanrahan. And that is spelled H-A-N-R-A-H-A-N.

But yeah, that's everything. Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Cheers, mate. Thank you. That's it for this week, War College listeners. War College is myself, Matthew Galt, and Kevin Nodell. It's created by myself and Jason Fields.

If you like the show, you can follow us on Twitter at War underscore College or at M-J-G-A-U-L-T and at K-J-K-K-N-Dell. We will be back next week with more stories from behind the front lines. Stay safe until then.