Angry Planet - The Syrian Revolution Is Over, but the War Rages On

Episode Date: January 25, 2019

This week on War College, Syrian journalist Loubna Mrie walks us through life in the early days of the Syrian revolution, how it turned into a nightmarish Civil War, and the consequences of  US Withdrawal.You can listen to War College on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. Our website is warcollegepodcast.com. You can reach us on our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/warcollegepodcast/; and on Twitter: @War_College.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. I don't think the war is over. I think the revolution is over. I think when you see people going back to the government-held areas because they're sick of the war and because they're sick of the poverty, I mean, I'm not saying that the government areas are. are perfect, but I'm just saying that kind of the government gave them the option. It's either stability or freedom and chaos. And so, of course, people will choose the stability. You're listening to War College, a weekly podcast that brings you the stories from behind the front lines. Here are your hosts. Hello, welcome to War College. I'm Matthew Galt. And I'm Derek Cannon. The United States military is officially leaving Syria, maybe. On December 19th, 2018, President Trump declared the war on ISIS finished and announced the withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Syria.

Since then, things have gotten complicated. On January 16th, an explosion killed 19 people, including four Americans. On the 21st, another explosion fell to convoy in northeast Syria. ISIS disclaimed responsibility for both of the attacks. Here to help us untangle what's going on is Lubna Marai. Lubna Marai is a Syrian photographer, journalist, and writer. She covered the Syrian War as a photojournal. for Reuters from 2012 to 2014.

Currently based in Oakland, California, she is a frequent commentator and researcher on Syrian and Middle Eastern Affairs. Her work has been published in major news outlets and publications such as the nation, Time Magazine, Vice, and New Republic, to name a few. Most recently, she graduated from New York University

receiving an MA in Near Eastern Studies. She's currently writing her first book. Lubna, thank you so much for joining us. Of course. Thank you for having me. So how did you first get involved in the Syrian Revolution? Your father was actually a fairly senior official in the military, right? He was not an official member of the Syrian government, but he's a businessman. And on my father's side, are very close with the Syrian government.

So they're close with the Syrian government, but they don't have any official titles. What was it like in those early days, and how did you get involved? Honestly, it's very hard to answer this question, but I remember in the beginning, I mean, like, By the end of 2010, I was 19 years old, and we were like many Arabs, or like many people around the world, we were watching the Arab Spring in Egypt and in Tunisia. And I remember just like watching this news clips and wondering if that will ever happen to my country. And it did.

In 2011, the Arab Spring reached Syria, and there was like tons of protest. and then I joined those protests. And to be honest, I had no idea that the crackdown on the uprising would be this brutal by the government. You spent time with a lot of the different fighting groups, you know, the Free Syrian Army, the Curtis YPG fighters. How do you see the breakdown in the Syrian Civil War? There seems to be a lot of factions playing into this. How did you see those kind of interspersed groups with different ideologies, kind of. working together. Like, how is that breaking down? Okay, but before we go to the, to the military

side of the uprising, it's very important to remember that the first five months of the Syrian uprising was completely peaceful. I mean, yeah, there was like kind of push back against the brutality of the police here and there, but the majority of the protests were not militarized. And so it's always important to remember that. The beginning was peaceful. And the militarization of the uprising came as a natural result on the brutality of the police forces. In June, 2011, people started to defect from the Syrian army, and then they started what was called today, the Friesian army. Groups like Jabhat al-Nusra or Jabhat Feth Hasham, they are now.

really fighting for the same things that we used to fight for, like in the beginning of the uprising. It's very important to draw the line here between the rebels and these radical groups because these radical groups consider the Syrian uprising as something that it should be fought against because they don't believe in democracy and they don't believe in human rights. and if they saw someone with the revolution flag, they will detain this person. So, yeah, it's just important to kind of draw the line here between Jhba'Hirta and the actual rebels. You were involved from the very inception of the rebellion, the protests, the civil protest.

Was there a specific day where the leadership got together and says, this is it, we have to take up arms? Okay, so when that day happened, actually, I knew about it because I was still in Jablis, which is my hometown, which is actually today Jablis, my hometown called the capital of martyrs due to the 30,000 young men who were killed fighting along the Syrian forces. So I'm from that small town, a very al-a-white town. And I remember one time I was going from Jablis to Latakia and I saw the ambulance. coming from Jisr Shur. And these ambulances had the dead bodies of soldiers who were killed in Jisr Shur. And this is where that was the first time where a protest. I mean, like still, there is like lots of debates around what happened that day,

but that was the first time where protesters or people affiliated with the uprising pushed back against the police forces. so that day was kind of that day was the day that we knew that, okay, there is something happening that some people are actually pushing back against the police brutality. And to be honest, that was extremely understandable because in the first few months, thousands, I'm not going to exaggerate, but like I think hundreds of people were killed in a protest, like peaceful protests. So the Self-Defense Act was very understandable,

and it was very justified. Some activists argue that the self-defense or fighting against the government was the beginning of an end for the Syrian uprising because after the protesters started to fight back, it gave the justification for the government to escalate their violence against the protesters. And so yeah, that was the day where people were like, oh, shit, there's something happening.

What are your conversations with Westerners like, especially Americans? I'm curious, what do we fundamentally misunderstand about this conflict? God, I don't know how I can start with this. I don't know. So many, so many. Well, what's one thing that you wish we all understood better? I mean, so, okay, so there is a different. between people who started to follow Syria in 2011 and people who started to follow Syria in

2016. Okay. Like those people who started to follow Syria in 2011, they mainly understand the timeline of the conflict. They mainly understand that, okay, what happened in Syria in 2011, in March, 2011 was part of the Arab Spring. So understanding what happened between 2011, for example, in 2016 is really important to understand how we got here. Okay, but these people who started to follow Syria in 2016, they only see that, okay, it's a government against radical groups. Oh, it's like the U.S. backing up rebels against the Syrian government or Turkey is backing up rebels against the Syrian government. So I think the main misunderstanding or the main misconception around this war is that people do not remember how it all started. And it started because there

was a true organic uprising against a dictatorship. It wasn't because it's, it's, like a regime regime changed conspiracy coming from the West. Also, another thing

that I wish people understood more, and I think maybe we maybe as Syrians, we didn't really

do a good job by explaining and explaining to people here how Syria looked like before the war. And I think

in just understanding how Syria looked like before 2011, people will understand why so many Syrians rebelled against this government.

Okay, well, piggybacking off of that, something that we're hearing a lot in the West and from like American commentators right now is that American withdrawal is going to be a step towards ending the war. And it'll certainly be a step towards ending America's involvement in the war, but the conflict won't end when we leave, right?

I mean, listen, in an ideal world, I would be like, hey, we should stand against all interventions. We should stand against all foreign troops in Syria, blah, blah, and all of that. But today here we're not talking about, okay, if the U.S. withdrawal, it means the final decision will be for Syrians. This is not going to happen. If the U.S. withdrew from Syria, what we're going to see in Rojava, a similar situation to what happened in Afrin. I don't know if you guys are aware of what's happening in Afrin, but a couple of days ago was the University of the University of the Uffin.

the Oliver branch operation and the situation in Afrin and the stories that we've been hearing from Afrin, it's just mind-blowing. And if Turkey took over these towns, like the Roche Avat towns, which probably will happen, we will just see what happened in Afrin, but on a larger scale. So here we are not talking about like the U.S. withdrawal and then, okay, it's going to be peaceful operation. No, it's going to be a battlefield for Turkey and the Russians. And again, Syrians are completely outside of the picture. In your opinion, should the United States stay?

You should ask people who are uncommishly, to be honest. But from what I'm seeing and from what I've been talking to my friends there, and yes, they want the U.S. to stay. They want the U.S. to protect them from Turkey. Because, again, as I mentioned before, that the U.S. withdrawal means the Kurds will be fighting Turkey again. and this is this is not going to be good for anyone Al Jazeera just had an article that came out that basically Turkey

he basically had a phone call with the President Trump I guess on Sunday and he basically reiterated strongly according to the article that Turkey is ready to take over the Mambiz region the Kurdish-held regions in Syria is it 100% guaranteed that the Kurds are going to be attacked or be attacking Turkish forces if this happens? I mean, honestly, I'm like, I'm not a fan of hypothetical scenarios, but I think from what we saw in Afrin, this will be repeated again in Rojava on a larger scale.

And I think we will not be able to blame the YPG or Kurdish forces if they decided to seek help and support from the Russian and the Syrian troops. I mean, the Syrian government troops. I think what is going to happen in Rojaava, I think it's, again, it's not going to be good for anyone. And it's scary, you know, because like in the past years, despite all the mistakes that were being committed by the YPG, like the Rojaava territories are kind of the most stable territories in Syria today.

And it's just like heartbreaking to see like this whole experience going to be like crushed by Turkey, which is going to happen probably. What bothers me today in all the discussions that has been happening around like the withdrawal, especially from the American point of view, is that they're focusing so much on ISIS. I mean, of course, ISIS probably will come back on like a larger scale. But but like the true threat here is Turkey. the true threat here is Erdogan. And like we saw it before, you know, like I know I keep repeating the Afrin example because there is insane human rights violations happening at that very small town and no one is covering it. Let's, I mean, let's dig into that because that's something that Western media doesn't talk about.

You're right. And I think it is important. Like really explain to our audience what happened there and what might happen again. Oh gosh. So when Turkey invaded. I mean, Turkey and Arab rebels invaded Afrin. The first thing they did is that they pushed the Kurds out of the towns. Okay.

And during that time, Al-Ghuta was being under siege. Al-Ghuta and the suburbs of Damascus. I mean, this is one example of what happened. So people were being pushed out of Al-Guta to Idlib. Okay. And then when civilians from L'Guta reached Idlib, they were kind of encouraged in a way to go and take over the empty houses in Afrin. So here we started to see a demographic change in a Kurdish town.

So Afrin was like 39% or 93% Kurdish and 7% Arab. Now it's 50% Arab. So basically the democracy in Afrin changed completely. The Arab brigades that are controlling Afrin now are just the worst brigades ever. They are killing people under torture, stories about waterboarding, stories about rape and jails. People are being killed under torture in jails and interrogations in jails are happening under the eye of the Turkish command. I was talking to my friend recently who just got out of a jail in Afrin and he told me the interrogation was was being was done by a Turkish commander who had a translator like like like an Arab translator I don't know why these stories are not being covered and I don't know why like even Arab activists I feel we kind of led down this very small town that actually was the very first Kurdish town to rebel against the Syrian government.

So I don't know, just like this whole situation there is really hard, heartbreaking. And I don't want it to be repeated in Rojaven. I don't. To be clear, we're talking about ethnic cleansing led by Turkish forces. Yeah. Okay. I just want to make sure, make that super clear for the audience. This is not the first time that I've heard of this.

but you're right it doesn't get a lot of coverage yeah I mean also because like it's very complicated because like these this ethnic cleansing sadly is being done by like by

using Arab proxies they're like they're using the rebels who once stood for you know like democracy and like a united country for everyone they are using these brigades

brigades in order to achieve their agenda in Syria. And I don't know. Seriously, I have no words. How disappointed are regular Syrians, especially with Trump saying, hey, we got what we wanted and now we're leaving. How do you feel about, I mean, how do you and most Syrians that are, that are part of the Syrian Civil War that had stake in the game? Yeah, I mean to say that people had high.

hopes on the U.S. will be like a big statement. I think Syrians, especially after the chemical attack in 2013, people just wanted any solution to hold the asset government accountable. They just wanted any power to just stop the atrocities that were being done in Syria and that we're being committed in Syria. Me personally, I think I'm not really, again, again, I'm not pro intervention. And I don't think, I cannot see how, you know, like the U.S. would have stopped the war in Syria. I think they only escalated the situation by just, you know, just like, this is such a hard question. I don't know how to answer.

Like, part of me, I feel that, okay, the ideal scenario would be just like to hold the government accountable. But how can you do that without, like, a military intervention, you know? Like, how can you do that? without supporting, again, like intervention, you know, but like we should not be supportive of any kind of intervention. But I think there must be some way, again, I am not a politician. I don't know how how this things could be done, but I think just showing the Assad government any, it's so hard to answer this question without sounding interventionist, you know,

and like, I'm sure if someone heard this, it would be like, oh, she's like pro-intervention, Yeah, of course she wants like the U.S. to bomb the country. But like this is not the case. Like Syria is not Iraq. You know, like like the demands for change, the demand for changing the government came from the people. You know, it was it was an organic uprising. It wasn't, it was not regime change demanded by the West. And people asking for intervention in order for protection.

Like how I am going to tell someone who lost all his family and saw his, his, his house being. bombed on his head that, no, you should not ask for intervention. Like, intervention for people who are now in Syria is a survival act. It's not, you know, like, it's not something that, okay, people are asking because they're just like, like pro-intervention and they love the United States. It's really happening out of, out of desperation. That was a very hard question. I don't even know if I could have answered that either.

It was designed to be a hard question. I mean, it's basically, that's the question that everyone's asking themselves right now. And you're right. A lot of people are coming into the Syrian uprising into the Civil War kind of late, especially the people that have been following 2016 to 2018 now. It sounds like Syria is tired. Is that? I mean, yeah, but like also like now, if you ask anyone in Rojava, do you want the U.S. to leave?

Of course they will answer, no, we don't want them to leave, simply because they know if the U.S. left, the, like, the Turkish troops will probably come the next day. You know, so it's like, it's very hard to answer these questions. If you are on a survival mode, if you don't know what the future is going to hold for you. Like, here we're not talking about an intervention where there is no other foreign countries are intervening in the country. And also, like, people talk about intervention. They only talk about the U.S. intervention. why no one talks about the Russian intervention?

Why no one talked about like Husbalah intervention? Why no one talks about Iran intervention? I mean, if as activists we want to stand against all interventions, it's just, you know, like stand against all interventions, not only the U.S. Well, let's talk about that. Okay, so for example, the Russians have an air base, which is 20 minutes from my hometown, Jablai.

They have an air base, they have a hospital there. They are supporting the government with everything. They are supporting the government with troops underground and with weapons and ammunition. I don't think the government would have won this war without the support of the Russians and the Husbalah and Iran. I mean, yeah, like Russia is like any other country. they want to have more power in the region, and that was the main reason why they supported the Syrian government. How it looked like, I don't know.

I know that the Syrian government won the war because of these foreign powers. For example, the soldiers, these Syrian soldiers are being treated really badly compared to the Russian soldiers. Like, for example, if the Russian soldier was injured or. was hurt, they will just move him to a private hospital and they will take care of him. But today in Jebelie, for example, there is thousands of injured government soldiers with no support whatsoever. And there is, you know, like now after eight seven years of eight years of the war, we are starting to see kind of a pushback against the government and a pushback against

how it has been treating these local soldiers especially the other whites. You said something really interesting at the top of your answer that I wanted to circle back to. You said you don't think the government would have won

without Russia's help. Do you consider this war kind of over already? I was literally just arguing with someone earlier today about this. I don't think the war is over. I think the revolution is over. I think when you see people going back to the government

held areas because they're sick of the war and because they're sick of the poverty, I mean, I'm not saying that the government areas are perfect, but I'm just saying that people just, they don't, you know, like kind of the government gave them the option. It's either stability or free. and chaos. And so, of course, people will choose the stability. And they, it's very hard for me to answer such question because, like, this is my personal opinion, you know? Like, so, like, so many

Syrians will be arguing with me if I answer this way. But for me, yes, the revolution is over. It's over because it's not like that we failed, but because the Syrian government really used everything to destroy this uprising. And by the way, in the very, very, very beginning of the uprising, the Syrian government supporters and its soldiers used to write on banners or on the walls in areas that were witnessing protests. They were writing, I said, or we burned the country. That was their main slogan. And they did that. They literally burned the country in order to to keep Assad in power. And so long story short, yeah, I think the revolution was destroyed,

but not because we didn't deserve democracy or freedom or we didn't deserve change. No, because literally the government did everything they could in order to crush this uprising. And it gave a very good, you know, it's not like a very good example, but I think Bashid Lassad today gave an example for dictators in the future that if there isn't a prising in your country, you can crush it and you can get away with it. And today, honestly, like, I wonder if Hussein Mubarak is looking at Bashar al-Assad and be like, and like he was like, okay, maybe I should have done that. Or like, Ali Abdullah Salah is looking at Bashar al-Assad.

And he was like, okay, maybe I should have done that. Because Bashar al-Assad proved that you can kill 500,000 plus people in your country and get away with it. Although every human rights organization is saying that, okay, this dictator is killing his own people, but no one is able to stand up for him. It's like there's no consequences. Unfortunately, no. And like, it is weird today after, you know, after almost nine years from the beginning of the Arab Spring, how dictators today.

I mean, like Cece, for example, he talks about the revolutions or like the Arab Spring in a way that, okay, that was very, that was a very bad thing. you know, so they use Syria and like Yemen and like Libya and every country that rebelled against the dictator as an example of what chaos is. Basically these dictators are saying, okay, if you rebel against me, this is how you will end. And of course, no country in the world wants to end up in like in a raging civil war. But and this is another hard question.

But from Assad's point of view, What are you left with? You know, what does he have and what does he even want at this point? And also, who are his supporters? And what do they want? I think the supporters of the Syrian government, I mean, they are not all on the same page. But there is a big chunk of the Syrian government supporters. And if we took the minorities as an example, if we took the al-Awaas as an example,

They were convinced that this uprising is to destroy them, that this uprising was going to push them again back to the mountains. And this uprising was just like to kill all the minorities. So there is like a big chunk of the government supporters that they are only supportive of the government because it's an Al-Aid government. And they feel that, okay, having Bashar al-Assad and power is the only reason. and why they're alive. And I think most of other white people kind of you know, like it grew up believing that thing.

Like I grew up believing that you know, like that Hafez al-Assad was the reason why we are like in the cities now or why we're not in the mountains anymore. So there is like, there is something that is rooted deeply in certain societies

in the in serious. So this is one part of the Syrian government supporters. But also there is like government supporters who just are just like afraid, you know, who just like, okay, they know the Syrian government is bad. They know that, okay, there is a dictator. They don't mind sending their children to public schools where they will be chanting for the immortality of Hafez al-Assad who died like 10 years ago. They don't mind as long as there is stability in the country. So it's like very hard to ask.

the government supporters want, but it's clear that they were not willing to sacrifice anything for change. Do you see any reason for hope in any of these situations? Your questions are very hard, okay? Like, I do not prepare for that. I don't know why you're doing this to me. We don't mess around on this show. You know, I think probably what I'm going to say next is something that all activists, not only in Syria, but every activist who took part in the Arab Spring kind of will agree with me in that.

You know, like they will feel exactly how I'm feeling. But like, it's very hard to witness something that is so big and so hopeful in your country and seeing, seeing it being destroyed and stay sane. It's extremely difficult and sadly I have I have many friends who are dealing with depression who are you know like just like doing drugs in order to kind of distance themselves but the failure of the Arab Spring is really heartbreaking and it's very hard to just like move on from that. And so many activists, and I know that for a fact, also the Egyptian activists, so many of the Egyptian activists and the Syrian activists, as if they're stuck in 2010 and 2011. You know, they're just like repeating memories. They're just like seeing old videos. They're like listening to old music.

They are stuck into that period of time, refusing to believe that the thing they witnessed is completely gone. and so I don't know what is hope to be honest I think there is nothing to be hopeful about just on a personal level I think we should just do our best and just like try to move on and try to write our version of the history like we should not lead dictators today like CeC or or Hafez al-Assad to write their own version of the story. We should write what happened and what we witnessed.

You're working on a book right now, your first book. Is it about this? Is that what you're doing? Are you telling the story? Well, the book starts before 2011. I speak about what was it like to grow up in Syria and go to public schools and what was it like to grow up Al-Awaite. I wanted to explain to people.

I mean, it's not to explain to people, but I feel that if I explain the history of Allahis in particular, people will understand or it will make sense why so many Allahis decide to side with the Syrian government. And then I speak about how I joined the uprising, and then I speak about everything that happened on a personal level. and then and then between 2011 and 2014

I was in rebel held areas I tried to speak also about the mistakes that we did as activist it's like it's not like self criticism but it's very important now

to kind of look back and reflect on what we did wrong and then I speak about coming here to the U.S. and trying to start over and seek asylum in the Trump era. So, yeah, I'm excited to publish the book and working on it has been really kind of healing for me. And do you have any idea when it's going to come out and where can people follow your work? I mean, you can follow me on Twitter.

I don't really tweet that much because I hate pots and I hate trolls and I don't really tweet that much, but when I have a new article, I will post it on Twitter. The date of the book is not really clear yet because I'm still in the process of pitching it to, I mean, my agent, I'm not working with an agent that we're going to also submit the proposal very soon. So I don't really have a clear date, but I kind of have a clear idea what this book is going be or how the book will be structured and and I think it's very important to have a book written by a Syrian who witnessed the revolution like out there you know I feel most of the books that were written on Syria are written by with all due respect with all the respect to all the books out

there but I feel that they just focus so much on the war and the uprising only few really spoke about living in Syria before 2011. And yeah, I think that's a missing puzzle of this story that needs to be told. Thank you so much for coming on to War College and sharing your story with us. Of course. Thank you for having me. And I'm sorry for being distracted, but also your questions are really hard. I did not expect that.

Well, it's, I mean, again, it's just such a, you can't, when you're dealing with something like this, especially. as an outsider, I think the tendency on the part of Americans is to look away or simplify. And you can't do that here. We have to stop doing that. And to simplify, I think the main problem with the Syrian conflict and like all these so-called experts that they offer the simple narrative of this conflict. This is why they have so many followers.

You know, it is easy now to go on your show and be like, hey, listen, it's a government against Qaeda and the Qaeda. supported by the U.S. That is like a very simple narrative that every walk person in America who doesn't really follow the conflict will be, you know, will be okay with that explanation, you know. But you cannot do that to the Syrian conflict. It's very important to understand the timeline. You cannot just like simplify things.

It's a crazy eight years war. Thank you so much. for tuning in. War College is me, Matthew Galt, and Derek Gannon, and Kevin Nodell is associate producer. If you like War College, please rate us and leave a comment on iTunes. You can also follow us on Twitter at War underscore College and on Facebook at Facebook.com forward slash war college podcast. We will be back next week with more stories from behind the front lines.