Angry Planet - UNLOCKED: Inside Europe’s 3D Printed Gun Scene

Episode Date: November 12, 2021

Guns. Guns. Guns. We Americans love them, don’t we folks?But the culture is different in other parts of the world and people who want to build their own weapons, make their own Ammo, and fire down range with a sweet semi-automatic have to break the rules to do so. Thanks to 3D printing, that’s getting a lot easier to do as groups like Deterrence Dispensed spread the good word—and the plans—of making guns at home. Is it for home defense? Is it all in good fun? Or is it part of a broader ideology? Here to help answer those questions is journalist, podcaster, and documentarian Jake Hanrahan. Deterrence Dispensed and 3D guns in Europe is the subject of Jake’s latest Popular Front documentary Plastic Defence, which is on YouTube.Angry Planet has a substack! Join the Information War to get weekly insights into our angry planet and hear more conversations about a world in conflict.https://angryplanet.substack.com/subscribeYou can listen to Angry Planet on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. Our website is angryplanetpod.com. You can reach us on our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/angryplanetpodcast/; and on Twitter: @angryplanetpod.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. Hello there, loyal, angry planet listeners. This is me, Matthew, explaining what you're about to be listening to. This is an unlocked episode of a conversation from the bonus feed. We have with Jake Hanrahan about his defense distributed documentary,

just about 3D printed guns in Europe. absolutely fascinating. Why are you getting an unlocked episode and not a normal mainline new episode? Well, Jason and his son got COVID-19 and it knocked them down for a while. And then my wife and I got an upper respiratory infection that was not COVID, but was still pretty nasty. And it kind of set us back a little bit. We will be back to a regularly scheduled broadcasting stuff next week. Stay safe until then. It's called FGC9. It stands for fuck, gun control 9mm, because obviously that's the rounds that it fires. And yeah, man, like he just finished building it.

We saw him even printing a magazine for it. We saw him loading, you know, making his own ammunition in his little workshop there. And yeah, like 8% of the gun is 3D printed. They're also unknown unknowns. The ones we don't know, we don't know. One day, all of the facts in about 30 years time will be published. When genocide has been cut out in this country, almost in the city, and when it is near to completion, people talk about intervention.

They will be met with fire, fury, and frankly, power, the likes of which this world has never seen before. Angry Planet, I'm Matthew Galtz. guns. We Americans love them, don't we folks? But the culture is different in other parts of the world, and people who want to build their own weapons make their own ammo and fire downrange with a sweet semi-automatic have to break the rules to do so. Thanks to 3D printing, it's getting a lot easier to do as groups like deterrence dispensed to spread the good word and the plans of making guns at home. Is it for home defense? Is it all in good fun, or is it part of

a broader ideology? Here to help answer some of those questions is journalist, podcaster, and documentarian Jake Hanrahan. Hanrahan, you know, has been on the show many, many times. He's the host of the excellent popular front podcast. And his latest for that, I would, I mean, maybe it's even more than just a podcast now. His latest for that media empire is plastic defense, a YouTube documentary that's profiling, an esoteric character related to deterrence dispensed, I will say. But we will get into that in just a minute.

Jake, thank you so much. for coming onto the show for what feels like, you know, the 500th time. You can't get rid of me. Yeah, thanks, man. Thanks very much. So I sat and I watched this thing. It was just struck by how much this guy sounds like an American. And I guess I want to back up first, actually. And can we zero in on like how gun culture is different in Europe and Britain compared to the United States? Is there gun culture to speak of, really? No, nothing. Like, there's nothing.

I mean, you had, like, um, like Lutie, who was like a famous, famous British gun advocate, but he was extremely rare, you know, like he made his own, um, like metal homemade weapon, like gun and he got in trouble for it in the UK. But no, there's no real gun enthusiast. I mean, generally it's kind of like posh, rich people with shotguns for, um, for, like, hunting, shooting pheasants, you know, stuff like that. or it's just like criminal element but no there's no real gun culture at all

you know like not not in any way that's relevant anyway and I mean that's kind of the same holds true for Europe I would imagine where I assume gun laws are fairly similar to that in Britain like it's much more locked down there than it is in America right? I think like

Switzerland is the only country in Western Europe that is like kind of has a fair like chilled you know gun situation for Europe and the rest is just like, yeah, it's quite, unless you're like a part of some kind of gun club, you can't even think about getting near them, you know what I mean? Well, I think Switzerland isn't it part of, because citizens are all part of the militia there,

right? So they have, they like, some, there's some requirement to own a rifle and to be able to practice with it once a year, something like that? Probably, there's a similar thing in Estonia as well, actually, yeah, but I don't know what it is exactly, but I know that they're just a little bit fairer, or maybe that's not the right word, they're just a bit more open to it, you know what I mean? I mean. Right. So one of the things that's happening in our bizarre cyberpunk present is the spread of these 3D printers. These machines that are allowing people to fabricate their own weapons in the home. And, you know, the first big, like, new, like headline grabbing stuff about this obviously came from, you know, Texas with Cody Wilson. Can you kind of give us the background on that and like the general three gun setup from a few years ago? Yeah, yeah, of course. I think that was like, what, 2013 maybe, maybe a little bit later than that, I can't remember.

But that was like the first kind of 3D printed one shot, right? That was the Liberator, the so-called Liberator. Cody Wilson being the, I think it was like an attorney in training guy from Texas, you know, a libertarian guy who wanted to be able to 3D print this kind of one-shot pistol. And the only part that wasn't printed was like a nail to use as the firing pin. and yeah, it fired one round, it kind of cracked, and that was that. But it caused a stir, you know, like it was more for effect. And then, you know, he got in a bit of trouble with the government. Next thing, he starts saying, oh, I'm going to post all these 3D printed, aka an AR-15 designs on my website and released them to the world. As Jay Stark says, the kind of lead character in our plastic defense documentary,

those designs were actually no good. It was more for like shock value, you know, it's more to be like, oh, wow, like, what is he doing? But if you actually printed them and tried to, you know, put them together, you know, they weren't very useful at all. So, yeah, that's how, like, a lot of people still see them. They still see, like, old 3D printed guns. Like, there's always stuff on Twitter, like, ha, these guys, their hands are going to blow off. Like, it's become a meme. And it's like, no.

If you watch our documentary, you will see they do not blow your hands off. they are like fully working kind of submachine guns. It's insane. Yeah, let's let's jump into this then because the last, I think the last time that there was a major news cycle around 3D printed weapons, there was this Cody Wilson thing. And then kind of everyone came to the conclusion like, get back to me when you're able to print the lower receiver for an AR-15, right?

When you're able to manufacture like these, these automatic parts that aren't necessarily able to do now. Well, we're there, right? So what, like, what are, what's the level of weapons that you saw created while we're working on this documentary? Like, which different models? Yeah, yeah, like, which different models? Like, are we talking like, like, assault rifles, semi-automatic assault rifles, what, you know, how close to a real, they're all real guns? How close to a manufactured weapon were you able to see?

I mean, they're like 80% of, so this new one, this FGC9, which, you know, when we met Jay Stark, he just finished making like the Mark 2 version of it. It's called FGC9. It stands for fuck, gun control, 9mm, because obviously that's the rounds that it fires. And yeah, man, like he just finished building it. We saw him even printing a magazine for it. We saw him loading, you know, making his own ammunition in his little workshop there. And yeah, like 8% of the gun is 3D printed, and then he uses, what does he use?

I can't remember, but he uses some kind of, like, strong metal tubing for the barrel, and then, like, you know, rifles, the tube turns it into a barrel, and there are a few other parts of it are metal, but the majority is 3D printed. Now, this isn't just, like, that's not the only thing the Terrence dispense do, like this group that he's got, they make all sorts, you know, they make 3D printed magazines. They make 3D printed, um, uh, I think I've got something. some kind of like suppressor, you know, like, I don't know how it works, but they've made some kind of suppressor.

They've got, you know, 3D printed Klaschnakov lowers, you know, they've called it the plasticov, you know, they're very like bombastic, they're very kind of in your face, the way they do it, they're a politicized group in a way, but, you know, as we've been speaking about they're kind of a post-ideological, political ideological group, if that makes any sense, you know, it's quite an interesting thing. they've got going. It's not just, you know, they're not anarchists, they're not fascist, they're not libertarian, they're not whatever. They just stand for two things and that's it, which is, you know, absolute freedom of speech and absolute right to bear arms. So it's very

interesting. And honestly, like, what they're doing is one of the most fascinating things I've seen because they're not just doing it in America where obviously that's legal. They're spreading it all over Europe. They want people in Europe to make this. You know, when I'm talking to Jay Stark, He's saying, like, yeah, yeah, we want people to do this in countries where it's illegal to own arms. We need them to do it. They must do it, you know. And I know for an absolute fact that there are at least two other countries in Western Europe where people have made their own FGC9 and have their own ammunition and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's spreading.

It's definitely spreading. And it's one of them ones that before you know it, it will be here in a lot bigger, in a much bigger way. You know what I mean? I think. one day something will happen in Western Europe and we'll discover that like they're all over the place, you know? Yeah, it's going to take, I think so too. It'll take an act being committed with one of these weapons for people to take them more seriously, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's a tricky one really because, you know, in the documentary, I challenge Jay Stark a lot, obviously, because, you know, that's the job of a journalist. A lot of, like, American gun nuts don't understand that. And they're like, why are you challenging?

him, it's like, well, do you want propaganda or do you want journalism? But that's kind of beside the point. Like, the thing is, a lot of what he says, to me at least, you know, he has a point. With a lot of it, he has a point. I think that's undeniable. Whether you agree with him or not, like, it's up to you. But like, the things he's saying are not, some of it is like, oh, come on, man, like, that's kind of really too far out there. But a lot of it is like, well, yeah, like, you know, authoritarianism is getting higher in Europe. Like we're seeing it. That's not just me saying it. I've been keeping an eye on this for years. And you know, you can you can check out Big Brother Watch. There are various other organizations doing this. Authoritarianism is on the rise in Europe. And now I'm not saying there's going to be a war anytime soon. But, you know, when Jay Stuck says, well, look, it could happen here basically. It's like, well, it could. I think it's, I don't know. I think that it's kind of very easy to say, oh, no, this is Europe. But like there are things happening right now. In France, for example, when Macron is trying to bring in that insane new law that will, like, stop people being able to film the police or they go to prison.

Like, you know, that kind of shit, you wouldn't think that was going to happen two years ago. It's a slow incremental drift towards doom, you know what I mean? And I don't think a lot of people realize that. Well, yeah, and it makes sense from that perspective that people would grab onto whatever levers of power are available to them, right? And having a weapon is a lever of power. Absolutely. Yeah, it's like Jay Stach says, if the government has an executive force, you know, over you, then he says he thinks the people. He thinks it's a human right that the people should have an equaling force or at least something to fight back against. Now, I'm not really not too fond of any government, to be honest, but I think it's fair to say that like a lot of the governments, you know, in West Europe are nowhere near as tyrannical as many of the others across the world. However, I guess. get his point that the fact that it even exists that they are allowed the firearms and we are not, I don't know, maybe it's me, maybe I'm fucked in the head as well, but like, I understand that like,

yeah, you know, I do understand why that doesn't exactly feel fair, you know? Now, certainly I don't want what J-Stat once where he thinks everybody should have the gun and anybody should be able to print it without any kind of tracing because, you know, I've grown up around absolute shitheads that would literally commit a murder spree for a laugh the second they printed an FGC-9 if they could, you know. So it's, the guns are not the problem. The culture is the problem, you know. I think that despite what Americans think, you know,

and it's easy for me to say as a Brit, but, you know, I think that like school shootings are a problem. You know, I don't think that that's something you just go, oh, well, you know, like, it does seem kind of crazy. No, I'm not saying ban guns. I'm saying, like, there's something wrong with your fucking culture. If you look at Iraq, Iraq is like, I think they have more unlicensed firearms than anywhere else,

or at least what is quantifiable. they've never had a school shooting. You know, okay, you can say, well, they got ISIS, they got this and that. It's like, yeah, but that's very different to a school shooting. That is something very specific in your culture, in your kind of thought process to do something like that. So, honestly, I think culture is a part of it. I think it's too late in Europe almost, like to do it. Like, the kind of people who want to have what weapons are unfortunately often far right or they're kind of nuts.

the leftists in Europe in eastern Europe more like you know they're switched on they want the anarchists they want weapons they want arms but generally like in western Europe it's it's considered an extremist thing you know and what I'm even saying here like the very milk toast argument for like why I think some people should be allowed to own firearms in Europe even that is would have me considered as like a gun extremist to most people in England like the the culture is that kind of limited when it comes to it because we did have a, you know, we had a guy in Dumblain, like all these kids got rest their soul. Like he went in there's some lunatic, went in with a firearm and just shot a load of kids and their teachers.

And after that, everything changed here. But, you know, that guy could have got a gun anyway. You know what I mean? He could, that guy could do that now, you know. I mean, it's only, it's a small wonder that the jihadists use knives when they do attacks in our country or suicide bombs because guns are not that hard to get hold of. Now everyone says that. It's like, oh, we heard. heard, oh, I know a guy at the pub that, like, you know, he can get me one. Most people talk

shit. But really, you know, like Jay Stuck says in the dog, if you're motivated, you can get hold of one. And if you're motivated, you can now print one. So this is where the dilemma for a lot of people comes up, you know, it's, I don't know, the doc has raised many questions and a lot of debate. It's made a lot of people very angry, very sad, very annoyed, very happy, very excited. And I think that's what you should do, you know, like no one, there's no, there's no fucking opinion in it. We haven't told you what to think. I know a lot of people are upset with me for not saying like guns are bad, you know what I mean? Like, but, but, you know, it's, why should that be what I tell you? It's up to you to make your mind up, right? Why are people angry?

Why are people angry? I've seen a little, a few little back chatting, chatting shit saying that like, you know, it's, it's, it's all about political ideology, right? So, you know, there's a few kind of liberal types, you know, here that think that we allowed him to talk. for too long. They think I didn't challenge him enough. They think there should be a piece in the doc saying like, this is what guns can do to you, you know, that kind of nonsense. But, you know, popular front, we don't treat our audience as children, you know,

because it's not for kids. And we're not trying to impose an opinion on anyone. So we just kind of left it all hanging in the air, you know. And I think that's a good thing. It's definitely riled people up. I mean, it's done like 500,000 views in a week. And we only had like 20,000. subscribers on the YouTube at the time. I think that's like tripled now. But like I think that's good.

It shows that people are interested, you know, and it raises a lot of concerns. I mean, you know that fucking the police have watched that Interpol are probably combing over it, you know, trying to find out where this guy is and all that stuff. So yeah, it definitely raises a lot of questions. You know, I said to Jay Stott, what for jihadist got hold of this? And, you know, his response is kind of like, well, so what, you know, which I don't like the idea of that. It's like, well, okay, well, what if they go and kill your family or whatever? And he just kind of is like, well, I have to deal with that. Now, that's very detached from reality. I think that's coming from someone that has perhaps not seen death and not seen the tragedy of murder. You know what I'm

saying? It's like, it's very easy to say that. But the realities of war are very different to what people think it is, obviously. So, I don't know, it's a tricky situation. I don't know anything about him, but that's the impression I got, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's funny, especially watching this as an American and like an American. from the south where I've lived among gun culture my entire life. Like it has permeated my very existence. I've been range trained. I've fired firearms.

I should probably have not been able to get a hold of in the States, but you can get a hold of. But like I know dudes like this. Like I've met these guys. And they tend to be like there is a class of nerd here in America that is hard. harmless, but is very interested in guns, likes to take guns apart, likes to put them together, likes to make their own ammunition, and do all of this stuff. And that's kind of like what he struck me as was a gun nerd that had been radicalized by his inability, and I used, you know,

radicalized very loosely, radicalized by his inability to get the thing that he wanted to nerd out over. Yeah, that definitely comes into, I'm glad you mentioned that. because people do often, whilst watching this doc, have kind of forgot about that side of it. Like, the nerd level that he went into was just outrageous. I mean, honestly, there was more I wanted to put in the dock about how he built the thing, the kind of technical side of it. But like, A, I knew it would get us kicked off of YouTube

because they can very easily say, you're instructing people. You know what I mean? Even though it wouldn't be that way, it's just the way, you know, YouTube are just, they're pro-censorship. They love to censor anybody, you know, our whole channel has been demonetized from day one. So I knew I had to be careful with that. And also, like, it would just get boring.

You know, if anyone that's actually not a nerd as well, it just gets boring. But certainly, like, the technical detail that he's taught himself, he says in the doc, you know, like he had no experience. He's not done engineering, nothing like that as far as he says anyway. And the stuff, he's just taught himself completely, you know, on the internet. Like, he's taught himself online. And he says, like, you know, via message boards and YouTube. and whatever.

And yeah, he's learned to do it. And I mean, he even says himself. He's not shy about it. He says, like, you know, I have all this ideology with the politics of it. You know, I want to be able to protect myself. I'm against the state, having any power over me that I don't have over them. But then he says, also, I'm deeply passionate about firearms. I know about the history.

I'm fascinated with it. You know, like, he can look at a firearm and tell you what it is from like a thousand yards. You know what I mean? This kind of guy that's he knows about this. off. And, you know, fine. That's up to him. You know, it's his hobby. I mean, can't all have the same hobby. But it changes definitely when, you know, that's in America versus Europe, you know, like deterrence dispense, the majority of it, the testing and all that happens in America, of course, because 3D printed guns are not, you know, it's not a problem there. Like,

I mean, to be honest, you could build a slam fire shotgun, you know, out of two, like, bits of fucking scaffolding and, you know, a shotgun cartridge probably quicker than you could do any of their stuff. So for them, it's not really just about the gun. It's the hobby side of it, you know, and their spokesman, you know, Ivan the troll, like, certainly we disagree on a lot, but we get on quite well because the kind of free speech element that they incorporate, you know, a lot of people that are saying, oh, it's not true. It is true. It is true. They do mean it, you know, they are very much in favor of the free speech element to the point where, you know, if there's anyone that has liked this doc, it's been them. And that, you know, and I thought they'd get really

pissed off because there's a lot of confrontation in it and I'm like quite you know confrontational with J-Stark and they were like well no like if we have these radical ideas we have to be able to defend them and you know you asked him the questions and he was able to defend them so you know it's kind of there was a mutual kind of understanding there that like if you are about free speech you really have to be about it you know what I mean um so it's that my point is it's that paired with this nerd hobby and the kind of political climate that has formed like the perfect storm, you know what I mean, the perfect story almost for me anyway, in terms of like that kind of conflict element to it all. And in 2020 as well, it's, it's so like

cyberpunk in a in a low tech kind of way, you know? Yeah, it really, it really like the cyberpunk element really stands out. And I mean, that's kind of a part of an aesthetic that you've cultivated at popular front though, right? But this is like the perfect story for for that. So deterrence dispensed, Do you have any sense of, like, how big that community is? Like, you know, how many members did you talk, did you go through before you got to Jay Stark? Well, it's been about three years in the making trying to get access to Jay Stark. Like, you know, I've been speaking to him on and off and he'll vanish and he moves country and he's back in somewhere else. And then someone else contacts me in, and puts him in touch with someone that puts me in touch.

You know what I mean? He's very, I don't know what he does, but he's very about, you know what? to mean, he seems to be all over the place at different times, from what I've heard, anyway. And only, like, recently, he just kind of resurfaced and was like, remember that thing you said, like, I was like, yeah, I really want to do it. And then we worked out and we did it. But certainly, like, you know, I spoke to several different people involved in that community. Ivan, the spokesman of deterrence dispensed is, like, you know, a very useful person for that sort of thing. And I think there's like, there's like thousands of members put it in a decent,

it's all decentralized. So there's almost no way to know. There's like a core of like, I don't know, like maybe 100 members, maybe less. That's the kind of their group, the ones that do the research, the ones that come up with the designs, they're talking every single day about it all, you know, they're always in their chat rooms and whatever. But certainly in terms of like affiliated people, there are thousands, definitely, definitely thousands of affiliates.

And then if you look at how many the files have been downloaded, it's probably like 100,000 or something. So, and obviously that doesn't mean there are 100,000, you know, 3D printed guns out there, but it does mean that people are interested in looking at it. And it only takes one to do something silly or it only takes one to use it perhaps against the tyrannical government. You know, I don't know. Like, you know, there's some talk that maybe people in, you know, countries that are kind of under the boot of totalitarianism might start building them. You know, maybe Hong Kong will start building one.

Maybe wherever we'll start building one. So that would create a very strange dynamic where you would have to say, well, well they've done I mean I mean isn't that good to fight against tyranny I mean in my opinion that's good you know always totalitarianism

must be for all cost I think so you would think that like well that would be good but then what if one Nazi makes it in Europe and then shoots up a synagogue that would be horrific so it's all about how it's used right which is does that mean that creates the dilemma then

do you kind of put it out into the world and just hope that no one bad uses it or do you limit it? Well, the Terrence Dispense said, fuck it. We're giving it to everybody. And they have. Anyone can download it. It's not on the deep web.

There's no special programs you need to download it. You can go and download Jay Stark's FGC9 instructions. I think it's like 110 pages or something. And it's written out like an IKEA manual, you know, like flat pack furniture. It's incredible. Like, I mean, the kids, in a way, like these kids, I don't know. I shouldn't say kids. Like, the Terence dispense, a lot of them are old.

than I am. But what they're doing is ingenious in a way, whether you like it or not. You know what I'm saying? It is absolutely fascinating and they're clever in a very 2020, very online, too much internet way. You know what I'm saying? And that to me is seeing that cross over with the world of war and guns and, you know, conflict is just fascinating, man. Like it's just, you almost couldn't make it up. You know what I mean? like and again the thing is people are still now people are still saying that gun wouldn't fire that gun wouldn't last this i mean i don't know he puts about 30 rounds through it in in a plastic defense and it's fine you know it's fine i've seen i picked it up that thing is a fucking rifle you know or a submachine on whatever the hell it's classed as i don't know about guns but that is i mean you

know i've been around a lot of weapons of firearms i've never i've never fired one but i've been around them a lot covering conflict. And, you know, I've seen weapons used by guerrillas and militants that look less reliable than the FGC-9. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, did he give you any kind of sense of like how reliable it is? Like how many, you know, how long does it last and in what ways do they typically break down? I mean, obviously they've gone through iterations of these designs over and over again, right? Yeah, I mean, I've forgotten, but I think there's something like two or three thousand rounds has been put in like put through the FGC9 on like you know semi auto or whatever it is and it was fine um the other day um Ivan the troll the

um the spokesman for deterrence dispensed was putting a thing up on Twitter which I retweet because it was so interesting he was using a soldering iron to fix some cracks in the lower part of the 3D printed plasticov the Klaschnikov design and yeah just set there with a fucking soldering iron just filling in like repairing his rifle. Now, like, you know, you could say, oh, well, you know, it's cracked, it's bullshit. It's like, well, no, he put a lot of rounds through it. And imagine some kind of, I don't know, some kind of gorilla. I mean, if his, if his Clashnikov starts breaking, which is very unlikely, but if it did, it's going to be a lot harder for him to fix than just get the soldering iron out.

You know what I mean? So, yeah, it's, it's, they're pretty durable, man. Like, like I said, I saw the FGC9 being fired. It sounds kind of weird. You can hear the spring, you know, I guess, more because it's plastic, right? It's polymer rather than metal surrounding it. But yeah, it, it, I mean, you know, as soon as I saw it fired, I was like, right, that would kill me immediately. Like, there's no doubt, you know what I mean? That would splatter your head, you know what I'm saying?

And from a, from a distance, you know, there's no, there's no doubt about it. It honestly, like, you've seen the dock. It just seems like a normal kind of, you know, small submachine gun to me. Was his, was his aim as bad? as it seemed in the dock, or is it that the gun is imprecise? That was another kind of question I had. Is like, was he able to kind of put bullets where he was pointing? Well, not really, because the issue is he's never fired the thing, really.

Like, I think he fired it once or twice in some basement, which you see some of the footage of that in the dock at the start. And, like, so if he's fired it twice, you know, this is the first time he's ever been able to fire the thing in the open. You know, that was that we went to this huge forest with him for anyone that's not seen the dock yet. Spend hours and hours walking. God knows where the fuck we were. But anyway, we go to this huge forest and he fired like, you know, he put like, I don't know, 30 rounds through it. And yeah, I mean, the aim was bad, but, you know, he's not really fired it before. And when he was kept trying to zero the sight in, I was kind of like, we need to fucking film this.

I don't want to be standing around here for God knows how long with you with your fucking illegal three. printed gun, you know what I'm saying? So he was kind of, I was like, look, just demonstrate that it fucking works if you want to and that's that. And he was like, okay. But I mean, I'm pretty, you know, knowing what a nerd he is, I'm pretty sure he's, he's worked out how to be proficient aiming. But again, it was a very, very makeshift situation, a very dodgy situation. Yeah, there's, and there's this moment that, like, again, as someone who's like range trained really kind of shocked me, it's when he like, he, he's not kind of, kind of, paying, he's not paying attention to his surroundings and he's letting you get hit in the face

with the shells. Yeah, yeah. That was, some American was like, message me. It was like, you fucking pussy. I was like, what? Sorry to get hit in the head with hot, like, shell casings from a nine million. Dude, it's, it hurts, man. It's funny because it's, uh, because I've got a gun nut friend, um, and I saw him, like,

post this meme on social media that had put, that he'd pulled from the thing. And I was like, and I started kind of talking to him about it. And I mentioned that moment. And then he said the same thing. He was like, well, the pussy shouldn't have been in the way. And I was like, oh, my God. Right. I know, right?

Like, you're a pussy wife. Oh, like, oh, sorry, tough guy. You know what I mean? I mean, anyone calls you a pussy. I just go, I was like, oh, look at my fucking work, man. Like, I'm not a pussy. I'm just not fucking he, man. Like, you guys, sorry.

You know what I mean? So the fucking, yeah, I mean, there was a point where the, um, he did have like a bad cat, a. a brass catcher, but I don't know what happened. It fell off or he must have left it down somewhere, you know, and only afterwards did you remember it? But, yeah, I was sitting there, and all these shell casings hit me in the fucking head.

So, and obviously I just got up and was like, whoa, what the fuck? So, yeah, it's, I don't know, anyone that is tough enough to take a shell casing to the face, like, why would you choose to do that firstly? And, like, secondly, good for you, you know? But a lot of that, like, macho culture bullshit is in that gun community, right? Like, you even hear a lot of it with Jay Stark. Like, some of the stuff you were saying, you know, there's like, people have commented

and like, he sounds like a real true American. And I was like, oh, my God, like, cringe, you know what I mean? But he does. Like, he does. He sounds like a... He does, but like, it's so extravagant some of it, you know? Yeah. Another question I had is, like, what does it cost to produce one FGC?

Right. So I think... He did mention it in the doc. So the 3D printer is about, I mean, let's talk in dollars, right? So in your currency, to buy the 3D printer, the end of 1, whatever the fuck, he's got, the end of 3. I think it's about $300, I think less. I think $250. The polymer is dirt cheap.

You know, you can buy spools and spools and spools of it for very, very cheap. I think it's something like, fucking, I don't know, like a cent a meter or something crazy like that. and then the rest of it is kind of, you know, like metal parts. You have to order in from China or wherever. So it's like, I don't know, like, let's say like $1,000 maybe. You know, it's not expensive. And the thing is a lot of people are saying stuff like, oh, is it really that easy to do? It looks very complicated.

And it's like, well, it is complicated. But like, you know, I thought this beforehand. But actually, when I rewatched it, Jay Stark makes a great point. He says, if you are motivated to do this, you can do it. And he's right, because if people are living in now where they spend, like, they can't do five minutes without scrolling Instagram. Like maybe you put all your fucking bullshit down for two weeks and just dedicate yourself to learning this thing every single day, day tonight, as Jay Stark had.

You'd probably be able to do it. I'm an absolute fool, and I think I could probably learn how to do it. after going through and researching it and reading through the manual, it's like, yeah, I could do that. Like, if I had to, you know what I mean? Like, he's motivated because, I don't know, he wants, you know, he has this kind of crazy vision for the future and whatever. But imagine there was a civil war in the UK or somehow, like, you know,

there was a, the government went despotic and we had to, like, have guerrilla units or whatever. I'm pretty sure in that environment, people would definitely do it. I mean, you know, you know about this. You know what it's like in wars and stuff. Like, guerrillas are ingenious. I mean, we saw in, like, last year in Yemen, they were making, like, papilla-mashe, like, landmines that look like rocks.

You know, like, if people can work out, like, basic shit like that, they can follow instructions to build a 3D printed gun, I'm sure of that, you know. Certainly not everybody could, but it really, once you'd sat down with it and stopped fucking around everything else, If you really wanted to learn, you could learn it. I don't believe that his statements are that over the top when he says like any average Joe could build this. I think they could, you know? And are there other groups like deterrence dispensed that have different ideologies that we know of?

Or are these guys kind of on the bleeding edge of this stuff? I mean, they're certainly the most well-known and the most kind of organized, if you like, in a decentralized manner. And they're the most bombastic. They're kind of like a younger, you know, they're in your face. They don't give a shit. You know, one of their catchphrases is pissing on the grave of gun control, you know. They're like, it's over for you. Like, we have won, you know.

I mean, Jay Stuck says in the dock, he says, it's impossible to stop us, you know. And I think he's kind of right. You know, there's a level to it that is true because, you know, he says, like, if I get arrested, someone else will carry it on. And then if they get arrested, someone else will carry it on. Like, this is the benefit of them having this decentralized network. as opposed to what Cody Wilson had, which was a centralized business, basically, you know?

Like, he was at the head of it, and, you know, he got in trouble for doing some, I don't know what the fuck you're like. I think he fucked like a prostitute or something. I completely forget, sex worker, whatever you want to call it. But I don't know what happened to him. He had some fucked up charges. I think the girl was quite young.

And essentially, like, you know, his business is, I wouldn't say it's vanished, but it's certainly not in the headlines like it was, and nobody wants to associate with him anymore, you know what I mean? Like obvious reasons. So, you know, with the Terrence dispense, it's like, well, if that happened to one of them, they were like, okay, next, you know, it's just like another one would just do it. So, and even if it wasn't

someone they knew, it's all out there, it's already been downloaded. It's all on these, these nodes and these decentralized networks on the internet where they could just be downloaded again and again. So once it's out there, there is no stop in it, actually, like, in that sense. But I think that, like, I don't know, I think that if Jay Stark was apprehended, it would make other people in Europe maybe more worried, but there's always going to be another person to do it. Do you know what I mean? There's going to be someone that's going to do it.

Yeah. Wilson was, and he, believe, admitted to this, he paid a 16-year-old girl for sex. That's what he... 16. Yeah, that's what he did. That's fucking disgusting. But he, yeah, that he met on like an app and then absconded to Taiwan,

and then Taiwan, like, extradited him. And he surrendered himself. into the to the marshal service and then uh i think believe pled guilty um yeah yeah i mean there you go like i mean career finished essentially you know like as it should be but yeah i mean what what a bizarre thing to do when you know that the government are trying to fuck you at every corner right well there's like a horniness will kill a man you know what i'm but there's like like i don't know how much you know about libertarian ideology in america but there's like a weird Oh, a lot.

Yeah, well, you know how there's like a subsection of it that's not just like... Peelots. Yes, exactly. Some of them are peatos. Some of them are very interested in making sure that local jurisprudence, you know, controls. They're very, a lot of libertarians are very interested in age of consent law, right? So it doesn't super shock me that he goes out this way. But you're, but you are right.

It's like the genie is out of the bottle here now. Yeah, essentially, you know, it's. If that happened to one of the deterrence dispense guys, yeah, it would be disgusting and gross, but it's not going to topple them. You know what I mean? It just isn't. You know, if Jaystart gets arrested,

he designed the FGC9. You know, he made the whole thing. I mean, with help from various other people, definitely, but it was his kind of concept. I mean, if he gets arrested and he goes to prison for the rest of his life, which he probably would.

I mean, without sounding harsh, I mean, in terms of the project, it would kind of be like, so what? They'll just keep doing it, you know? And he started deterrence dispense. He found it. it. And even if he vanishes, it's like, well, you know, they can just carry on. And he has been

vanishing in and out. You know, I've been speaking for years. And he vanishes for a year at a time sometimes. So again, it's like, well, it doesn't need a centralized leader, you know, it doesn't need it. And in that way, it's kind of anarchist. Some people have confused them with, like, anarchistic kind of, in a way, some of them are anarchists. I'm certainly sure that there are, like, self-identifying anarchists, not like the kind of left version or right. And, version or anything, just like, you know, black flag anarchist, like anarchism, whatever. But, you know, again, there is no real ideology other than this free speech and free guns sort of thing, pretty much. But, yeah, I don't know. If he goes down or he gets arrested and, you know,

and I trust me, I spoke to him about this. I was like, sure you want to do this. We created many safeguards. We've added, like, red herrings even to protect the source, which some people think you shouldn't do. I think you should protect your source to whatever degree you can, you know, like whatever you can do to protect the source, whether you like him or not, like, you know, I don't agree with Jay Stark, but you got to protect your source, right, as a journalist. So, you know, like there's whatever we've done all this, but there is obviously a high chance that he could still get apprehended and arrested and whatever. And if he does, honestly, I don't think it would have that much of a dent in deterrence dispense other than

make them more popular because it would be in the news. And, you know, that's probably it. why did he agree to talk to you? Like I said, it's been a good few years doing it, like constantly kind of saying, hey, man, I really want to do this. Ultimately, it's because he believes in what he's doing so much that he thinks the only way to convince other people and get them on board with me is to do something like this, a documentary where it's going to get it out there and people are going to see it. Now, obviously, I told him, I was, you know, constantly saying to him, you have no creative output here, like no creative input, sorry, like, you, this is not an advert for deterrence dispense, you know, and he would say, like, oh, can you say, can you put this in? I'd say, no, no, I put in what I want to put in, and that's it. You know, and he was actually very respectful of that, you know, he would be like, okay, no problem, you know, it's your thing, whatever. And I told him, like, we're not, this is not an advert for deterrence dispensed. And certainly, I think anyone that sees that and thinks it is is off their head. But, you know, even so, he still believed. that it was worth him risking it to kind of in his way tell the world what he's doing. And certainly the views it's getting it, you know, a lot of people have seen it, you know,

so it's getting there. And in his head, I guess it's, I've not spoken to him at all since the day we left, but I think probably in his head, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's what he wanting to do. He wanted people to see that, you know, this is what he's done. This is what he believes in. and I guess he wants, as he says, he wants to wake people up, you know, and, you know, basically he wants people to come onto his side of thinking. He wants more people in Europe to do this and to have the same ideas as him. Now, I haven't actually spoken to the Terrence dispense since.

I spoke to Ivan, like, about, like, inconsequential shit on Twitter. But, like, I guarantee, like, there are probably new members trying to join every day now. And I guarantee half of them are feds, you know what I mean? So I don't know if it's a good thing for them at all. But at the end of the day, whilst it might sound harsh, that's not really my problem. You know, protect my source and tell my story and that's that. It's not really up to me whether, you know, the risk that they've taken is worth it or not. That's on them.

You know, what are the – I want to elucidate this for the audience. I think it's mostly American. And we don't have, like, strict 3D printing gun laws here. There are – in Britain and Europe are there on the books? Like, you cannot 3D print a firearm? Yeah. Yeah, like in the UK, there was a lad that was found, I think, last year or the year before. I think he was printing like a 3D printed pistol.

It would fire like one or two rounds, I think. It's a weird looking thing. It looks like a kind of pirate, like four-barrel-looking strange kind of like plastic gun. And, you know, he got caught with ammunition and he said, oh, I found the ammunition in the park. And it's like, really, did you? You know, you just happened to be printing a 3-D-printed gun at the same time. But I think it goes to show, like, you know, this kid printed one and he managed to get bullets for it, which is, and he wasn't like a criminal or anything. He was like a uni student, you know, he was studying all this kind of stuff.

So, you know, that happened. But certainly, yeah, he was arrested. I think he was sent to prison for like three years, you know, the same as you would be, I think if you were caught with like a real firearm and you had no previous offenses, you get like three to five years just for having it. So, yeah, you know, they take it very seriously. That's wild. In this country, if you rob a shop with a plastic gun, you'll get the same amount of time for if you had a real gun, right? Because it doesn't matter whether it was real or not. The person that you pointed at thought that it was, right?

So it's the same level of threat in their mind. So we have quite strict laws even in that sense, you know. So anyone that is in Britain and thinks, oh yeah, I want to print some parts for this. Don't fucking do it. Like, do not do it. It is completely illegal. Don't do it. What has the response been like from the more gun-minded members?

of the community, do they think that, like, this is a betrayal? Are they mad that you're kind of spreading the word here? What's that response been like? Well, there's two sides, right? So there's like the gun nut community that the 3D printed guys, they hate them anyway, and they 3D printed guys hate them, and they hate each other, basically. They call them Fudd, Elma Fudd's, right? You're not like kind of old school, right?

It's funny, Elma Fudd crack me up when I first heard it. And then there's, like, the gunnots that don't really mind the three printed gun guys, but they also are not that interested in it. You know, they would rather just buy their own AR-15 or whatever and fire it into the sky every night or whatever it is they do. I mean, honestly, both of them have been pretty annoyed with it, which is, I'm glad. Like, I really, I don't know. I think that's good.

You know, it's good to make. These are the kind of people that they say, like, we don't trust the mainstream media because, you know, they lie. And then when you show them something where it's a journalist debating with someone and, like, pressuring him and like, you know, just trying to challenge what you're saying. Instead of being like, oh, that is like actual journalism. That's a part of it. Basically, they realize, well, this guy isn't just agreeing with everything and isn't saying what we want to hear.

So therefore, we don't like it. So ironically, they end up kind of using their own argument against themselves, right? And basically, it just often comes down to like immaturity, like children. They're like, oh, like, we hate this. This is bullshit. Why are you scared of this man? I'm like, where did I say I was scared of him? not once do I even give my opinion on firearms in the whole documentary

you know so it's basically people that are like I want this most people that are angry with it wanted the documentary to literally be me going like okay good that's great like you know what I mean they don't want any and they're meming it and they're quoting it even though they hate it and it's like where do you think these responses came from do you think they came out of nothing like if I didn't challenge him do you think JSTART would have said that you know what I'm saying so the biggest issue they have with it is really petty it's like the presentation of it.

You know, they're like very, very immature, like cry babies. It's not everything I want it to be. You know, I mean, if I had to turn up with a cowboy hat on and, like, fired the gun myself, they'd have probably loved it. You know what I'm saying? But because they don't necessarily know if I agree with them or not, they can't handle it. You know, it's quite pathetic. And ironically enough, like the 3D printed gun guys, like I said, they were like, no,

it's really fair. I think they were shocked how fair I was with them maybe because I think they thought I was going to do some like danger danger like you know whereas it was just like I don't agree with this but it's out there and that's what it is like it's up to you you know you can think what you want so yeah so the reaction from those guys has been either like crying or like wet in the bed or there's some guys that are just like I fucking love this you know there's loads of

heavily pro gun pro self-defense people that are fans of popular front and you know, I'm both the left and the right and loads of them of contact me and like, I fucking love this. This was absolutely brilliant. This is exactly what we needed to do. Like, this is proper journalism. So I'm not saying like, oh, I'm the best journalist away there, but I'm happy with the product.

I'm happy with the way it came out. And I feel like it was a very, it was almost like a dance. If you watch it from the start to the end, like the kind of slow lead up to the argument that me and Jay Stark have at the end when a lot of people were like, whoa, I thought he was going to fucking shoot you. It's, you know, it was a dance.

The whole thing was. And to be honest, you know, Jay Stark was a, He might have been angry at certain points, but he never once, like, we didn't fall out. You know what I mean? He understood why I was questioning him how I was. You know, I think his only problem was he wanted to talk about technical specs all the time, you know, and it's like, that's not interesting. So it's been well received.

Even the people that are angry about it and are crying about it. Like, I think that's good. You should rile people up, you know. You shouldn't, if everybody's kind of like, oh, the doc's fine, like, that's not good for me. It's like, no, I want strong feelings to be had about it. You know what I'm saying? And boy, like, there's a lot of strong feelings of being had about it. But the majority, I would say, like, the vast majority of people really like it, you know.

Because most people don't know about this shit. Yeah, I'd never got a sense at any point that he was dangerous or that your life was in danger in any way. No, me either. Yeah, me either. But, again, like, a European audience is different, right? Like, there are, you know, what is an argument between me and this guy and he's holding this rifle? It's like European is already so blown away by the gun and the fact that this is happening in Europe that even that scene is already tense for them. You know what I mean?

Whereas the other funny thing was like a lot of Americans that clearly knew that this was not a normal situation, clearly knew that this is like an anomaly in Europe because we don't have guns. And they would comment like, well, I don't get it. Nothing is happening here. This is completely normal. And it's like, you know why this isn't completely normal, my friend. you know what I mean like don't act fucking silly so there was two elements to it you know like there was either like overshocked or like pretending to be completely like why but why make this it's like oh for fuck sake you know what I mean but yeah it's it's fine it's whatever it's yeah I think

that's good like I said you should be having all these different responses from such a thing you know are you continuing to follow this story what would be what would be next um honestly like I'm keeping an eye and it just because of how like interesting it is to me. Like I'm fascinated with the community. I'm fascinated with the technology. And one of the craziest things for me is when they start printing these like fucking

fluorescent, fluorescent pink rifles, you know, because obviously it's 3D printed materials. They can print it whatever color they want to. Jay Stark, he just has his black, I think probably for,

you know, security reasons. I don't know. Like it's less likely to be seen. I don't know. But like certainly the guys in America, they're printing like multi-colored ones. They printed a trans flagglock, you know, like they say,

this is one of the things that's kind of weird. It's like, they're not necessarily like pro trans rights, but they're like, what's it got to do with us? And it's, but in the sense of like, we're not against them. If they want to do that, that's fine. They should be free to do that. And they should also be free to have firearms. So they made them, they made a trans member of deterrence dispensed a trans flag,

you know, the pink and the blue of, trans flag glock and there's a you know there's footage of it in our dock where they're firing this trans flagglock so it really it really kind of touches many different communities i think the the argument around firearms and who should own them is by no means black and white and liberals try and make it out that anybody that wants guns is right wing which is just complete nonsense i mean any successful leftist movement in the history of the world has been pro firearms you know so i mean the funny thing is in the advert they made for the plastikov um you know and they use Russian theme and they have and it sees the means of production.

And then the other day there was a communist, you know, it said in his bio, a communist. He was arguing in the popular front comments saying like, or in the Twitter. And he was like, this is bad. These guys are all obviously probably Nazis, like literally basing that on nothing, just saying it. And he's like, this is bad. You shouldn't be doing it. And then one of the deterrence dispense guys used the quote that Mark said under no pretense should the guns and the ammunition be taken away from the people.

and if it is you should fight violently to take it back or whatever the quote is, you know. And he used that quote and then he quoted it saying, some right wing guy. And I thought that's kind of funny. He's actually using their own arguments against them. You know what I'm saying? So the whole gun ownership, who should have the rifle, who shouldn't. It's not a partisan thing. Yeah, it's not a partisan thing.

You know, anyone can have this argument for whatever reason they want. So I don't know. I don't think they're going anywhere. And because of that, you know, I will definitely be keeping my eye. it just to see where it kind of goes. And if, I don't know, every time they release something new, I'm just fascinated with it, you know, just from like a technical point of view. Just like, wow, like, sometimes I do think, like, it's a shame that they spend this

much time and effort on firearms because God knows what amazing other stuff they could do, you know. Like, I'm sure Jay Stark in a different country could use his skills for, I don't know, engineering or I don't fucking know. I don't know anything about that world. But, you know, I'm sure he could, his expertise would be used. for something other than weapons, I'm sure of that, you know, and I don't think we need more weapons, certainly not, but I guess he does, do you know what I mean? But I don't know, it's just the technical expertise that they've taught themselves, man, it's, you know, it's the next level.

I remember when, like, you know, the iPhones came out and shit, and, like, all people didn't know how to use them? And you're, like, laughing at them, like, oh, God, like, how do you not know how to use it? I don't know, like, for people like you and me, when we're 40 and 50 and shit, might be like, you know, these kids might be laughing at us like, oh, what, you don't have to 3D print a gun? Oh, you know, like, it might become very normal for people to know how to do this. So what to me is technically incredible right now might become normal. I think it will be. And I think that this is going to, like you said, this is going to be one of those things where it's going to creep up on people and people aren't really going to realize

that it's happening until there is a, until they are used in the commission of some sort of crime or, you know, big world event is when people will start paying attention to it. And I'm not sure how you even begin to talk about, like, in the broadest sense, arms control around these weapons, right? There is none, you know? I mean, there is none. I mean, there's one thing that I agree 100% with them on. And it is that you cannot stop it, you know, you can't stop it, man. I mean, once it's on the internet and it's a downloadable file, that's it's finished.

You can't stop the spread of those files, never, you know. You can't stop rumors. You know, celebrities spend millions trying to stop a sex tape carrying on on the internet. You'll still find it on porn up wherever. You think you're going to stop like multiple, like dozens of different 3D printed gun designs. No way. No way. It can't be stopped now, you know. And I don't know what authorities, you know, it's not for me to say what they should or shouldn't do.

but I guess they must be, you would hope that there's part of them is like looking at this and thinking like, right, how can we make sure that, you know, terrorists don't start using this or whatever, you know what I'm saying? So, but again, it's, it is the problem of like, well, you know, ISIS could do this. And again, I said to J-Start, what if ISIS was using this? And he's like, well, tough luck. That's a risk you have to take for more freedom.

Then it comes down to who decides what is free and what is security. you know, it's, again, more debate, more questions, which I think this whole topic, even though it might seem niche right now, like, I think it's going to be something that will end up creating a lot more debate and questions and laws in the future. I mean, there were even some countries, I think it's Vietnam, it could be Thailand, one of those two countries where 3D printers are completely illegal based on, like, the fact that you can build firearms with them. So, you know, I don't know, we might start seeing countries where that happens as well. I mean, it'll get even weirder. Because they're already, I don't know if you know, like, do you know what additive manufacturing is? It's a specific kind of 3D printing where, you know,

a lot of that stuff, like they have the block and they like shave, they like lay the way something from the block. Additive manufacturing is it just uses the printer to print exactly what you need. So like it's additive. and there's defense contractors over here that are, like, I think Raytheon is able to build like 80% of a missile this way now. The feds have some high explosives. They've been able to manufacture this way. So worse and weirder things are in the pipe.

Well, also as well, I mean, I'd be more worried about Raytheon being able to do that than I would be fucking J-Star running about in the forest with his gun. Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. You know, it's, I had someone asked me the day, like, you know, oh, fucking you were asking Jay Stark, why is he an extremist? I didn't say that at all. I said some people would see this and think you're an extremist. And his response is like, fuck them, I don't care. Maybe we are, whatever. But then, you know, you could argue then that, well, is the government of America or whatever, are they extremists? Well, old people say, oh, no, no, of course not. Well, I don't know. They've been bombing children in Yemen for like the last however many years. I'd say that's a lot worse than Jay Stark printing a three. do your gun, like wouldn't you? So, you know, it comes down to, well, then what is extreme and what isn't? And who has the say-so? Like, what? Just because they're the government, they can kill innocent children, you know, which has happened many times due to just not caring where the bombs are dropped enough. So, you know, it's like, well, I don't know, you have to really weigh it up. I don't

know. I would say that the amount of, you know, black men that are killed disproportionately by police in the US is unbelievably extreme. I think the amount of dogs that US police kill. is incredibly extreme. And I would consider them more extreme than Jay Stark. Just because he has a big hoo-ha and a big chat and a big mouth, I don't know, I think you have to look at the actions of whoever is doing the violence rather than that.

You know what I'm saying? And I just, I don't know, I think that the state has a lot of blood on its hands. And now that people are doing other things to say, like, oh, no, we can have blood on our hands too, or we can defend ourselves. Now people are worried. And that worries me that only now they're worried, right?

why they should have been worried before. They should have been worried about what our government, what my government did in Northern Ireland or in India or all the other shit, you know. But only now they're worried because some Rando has a 3D-printed gun in Europe. So I don't know. Again, it creates a lot of questions, right, and a lot of debate, which I think it's worth thinking about. Yeah, I think I'm generally suspicious of people that only start to get worried

when the state's monopoly on violence is challenged, right? Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like you weren't worried when the police were killing people, but now when, I don't know, like, some kind of, it's like with you guys got it in the US, right, where like all the right wingers are like, what about Antifa? Like, and it's like, well, you know, Antifar in America are kind of weak. They haven't killed anyone. I'm not saying that's bad that they haven't. I just mean like they're kind of weak in the terms of the level of violence, you know, they've not actually killed anyone yet. And then if you look at the far right, there's loads of people. I mean, the body count is significantly different, but there are, yes, there have been political, there has been political violence that has led to death from the left wing in America. Right, but not since like the weatherman and that, right?

I mean, the recent kind of. There was, yeah, like the last five years, I should have said. But, um, I don't know. They're the gentleman who, uh, the guy that was like a Bernie Sanders organizer that opened up on, um, the Congress members that were. playing the baseball game is one example. Yeah, that old guy. Yeah, and then there was the gentleman that was killed by the feds after he had killed the Patriot Prayer guy, he said was threatening him with a knife.

His name escapes me. Oh, yeah, he conveniently got killed by the face. Yeah, but the body count is much different between the right and left wing in America. True that, yeah. But whether that was an organized anti-fire killing, I don't know. No, and I wouldn't call either one of those that. I don't know, but like, you know what I'm saying? It's like all of a sudden, you know, Antifa, they're having a riot and they're like,

well, look at these terrorists. And it's like, really? Like you didn't say anything when neo-Nazis, like Atamoffon, for example, when they killed like five people. You didn't say anything then. So it's the same kind of thing, right? It's like, I think you have to be consistent. If you're against a certain thing, you have to be consistent with it. Whereas a lot of these people aren't.

And a lot of people in the gun community are the same. You know, I think they just, it's like the kind of people that say, freedom of speech, but what they usually mean is, I want to be able to say whatever I want, and if you dare disagree or say something that deviates from what I think, they'll call you a terrorist or something, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, wait, I thought you cared about freedom of speech. Where with the terrorists dispensed, honestly,

they have a, for right or wrong, they have a better understanding of what freedom of speech actually is, which has been something that shocked me because most of them American. But yeah, they do understand it, I think. Wait, because you got to explain that. Because most of them are American. No, I'm surprised that they understand it because they're American. I mean, I don't, no offense, but I think a lot of Americans, especially with the kind of culture wars, don't understand what freedom of speech is.

Like, you know, they think if you stand on a thing and say, you guys go and murder the Jews, they think some people are like, well, he was just telling them to murder the Jews. That's his right. It's like, no, that's not fucking free speech. that's an instruction of violence. Just because you say something out loud doesn't mean it's just free speech. You know what I'm saying? And a lot of Americans have not grasped that, I think. Americans really love speech without consequence.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay, fair enough. I just had to ask about that as an American. Yeah, no, no. You know, it's, I think like, you know, in the past, Americans have been spot on with it. But just the recent culture was just from where I'm standing, It's just fucking flipped everything.

You know, there were communities that I used to really respect in America that I look at now, and I'm like, oh, they've gone fucking nuts. Like, in the last five years, it's just bizarre, you know. I don't know. As a Brit, looking from it from across the war, it just seems just so strange. Like, it just seems so unbelievable that it's happened to. It does feel like we have absolutely lost our minds here. Yes, yeah.

Like, the shark has been fully jumped, you know. Yeah. And it just, it's every day. It's crazy. Every day there's some new, just. bizarre. I'm upset at somebody on some political side of an argument for being just absolutely asinine, right? Yeah. Yeah, a lot of the arguments as well, you look at it and it's like, people will be doing it for days and arguing and you're looking at it. You're like, what is the

point? Like, you know, nothing is going to come from this. Like, stop. Yeah, they're just these long, stressful Twitter threads that you're just trying to figure out what the, what the source of the, like, why are we talking about, I guess the one today as we're recording on December 7th is like there's a new metal band that is having a complete meltdown. Oh, trapped. Yes, trapped. Yeah. Jesus. Yeah, the guy is like advocating for pedophilia, right?

I don't, see, I don't even know. It's just like, I started looking at the thread and I was like, I don't even, I can't, I can't with this. I can't. It's almost, it's December. I'm tired. Why don't other people have that though? Why don't other people? I think they do.

But I think the pandemic's part of it too. Like we're all just super bored and trapped in our houses. And so it's making us more prone to to like have an interaction online, even if it's negative. At least it's an interaction with another person. Yeah. You know, because I'd rather, most of us would rather be in pain than be bored, unfortunately. That, you know, that's what it's. comes down to like my friend recently I was talking to him and he was reading like a lot of this

kind of like you know like agonizingly woke stuff that just gets you down it's like oh come on you know like I don't know like 89 year old woman like cancelled for god knows what you know what I mean like some minor infraction and I said to him like you got to stop reading that man like you literally hate reading it I said you spend more time reading that shit to piss yourself off than you do reading things that are actually valuable you know and that was kind of advice to myself as well to be honest. And he was like, yeah. And it's like there's something, you know, you hit the point. It's better to be like in pain than bored, right? So I think people feel like that with anger as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's a good place for us to end the conversation.

Yeah, man, definitely. Jake Hanrahan, do you have stuff to plug? Yeah, man, I would say just as usual, if they check out popularfront.com. That's our website. You'll find everything there. We have a podcast. articles, documentaries. If you want to support us, you can do it at patreon.com slash popular front. But thanks very much having me on again, man. I always love coming on here. Absolutely. It was an absolutely fantastic episode. Thank you for following this story. Things had got progressed much farther than I had anticipated watching this. Yeah. I honestly, until I saw it fired, was still a bit like, is that really going to do it?

And then I was like, I mean, I think you see it in the dock. I'm like, oh, fuck. Yeah. I'm like, oh, it works. This is a real, this isn't just some zip gun. This is a whole thing. Yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. All right. Thank you so much. That's all for this week, Angry Planet listeners. As always, the show was created by myself and Jason Fields. It's run by me and Jason and Kevin Nodell.

If you liked it, if you liked what you heard here in particular, these are the kind of episodes that we are doing over on the bonus feed, which you can get at Angry Planet. planet.substack.com or Angry Planetpod.com, $9 a month. Thank you for being patience while we were all very sick. We will be back next week with another conversation about conflict on an angry planet.