Angry Planet - What Is Happening in Jerusalem Right Now?

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

Literally recorded as missiles hit and news broke.Guest: Noga Tarnopolsky, a reporter on Israel and Palestine.Angry Planet has a substack! Join the Information War to get weekly insights into our angry planet and hear more conversations about a world in conflict.https://angryplanet.substack.com/subscribeYou can listen to Angry Planet on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play or follow our RSS directly. Our website is angryplanetpod.com. You can reach us on our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/angryplanetpodcast/; and on Twitter: @angryplanetpod.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/warcollege. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Love this podcast. Support this show through the ACAST supporter feature. It's up to you how much you give, and there's no regular commitment. Just click the link in the show description to support now. Hey there, Angry Planet listeners. This is Matthew. I'm just chiming in real quick at the top of the show to remind you that Angry Planet has a substack. It's at Angry Planetpod.com. And for $9 a month, you get access to two bonus episodes every month and commercial-free episodes from the main. show. So without further ado, again, that's at Angry Planet Pod or Angry Planet.substack.com to sign up. It helps keep the show going. One day, all of the facts in about 30 years time will be published. When genocide has been cut out in this country, almost with impunity, and when it is near to compression, if people talk about intervention. You don't get freedom, people.

freedom is never safe-guided people. Anyone who is depriving you of freedom isn't deserving of a peaceful approach. Hello and welcome to Angry Planet. I'm Jason Fields. And I'm Matthew Galt. What the hell is happening in Jerusalem?

To help us understand, we have Nogatarnapolski, a journalist who has covered the Middle East and lives in Israel. Thank you for joining us on such short notice. My pleasure. Can you tell us what's been going on over the last few days and just start where how it began. Well, it's a great question because it began with an act of unexplained stupidity.

About two weeks ago, the new chief of the Jerusalem District Police decided to install metal barriers at Damascus Gate. And that is not only one of the most beautiful legendary gates to enter the old city of Jerusalem, but traditionally it's a place where a young, Muslims of Jerusalem gather in the evenings of the holy month of Ramadan. It's just a popular spot. They're nice places to eat nearby. This brand new police chief for the District of Jerusalem decided to basically ban them from doing that by covering the whole area with metal barriers.

He has yet to really explain it. At the time, he went on TV and said, oh, we do this every year. But every Jerusalem might knew that he was wrong or lying. So that was the original spark of what we're seeing now, believe it or not. And those barriers were taken away within two or three days because it caused such fury. And the anger among young Jerusalemites who felt they were really being treated unfairly spread too much more extremist and really ideologically, I would say, driven groups in the West Bank. West bankers do come into Jerusalem, certainly for around. Ramadan and for Friday prayers. So what we've seen this week is just a number of unfortunate things

flowing together. There was this Supreme Court decision, which was now when postponed, about basically ruling whether a group of extremist right-wing Jews can evict Palestinians from homes that they've lived in for generations in Sheikh Jarach in a neighbor of East Jerusalem. the fact that the Palestinian elections, which were going to take place next week, were canceled. And the reason the Palestinian government gave for canceling them is that Israel did not allow Jerusalemites to vote in the Palestinian elections. Israel considers all of Jerusalem under its jurisdiction. Therefore, why would they vote in foreign elections, including Jerusalemites who are not Israeli citizens? So that blew up and that became a convenient excuse.

Hamas, the very extremist Islamic movement, saw not. opening to come in and anger Jerusalemites, especially the youth, and they used the last Friday of Ramadan for that. I could go on and on, but it's just been a series of small, in many cases, and incidental things. And I have to say, all of this is wrapped into late era Netanyahu, who at the end of 12 years of a really consequential prime ministership, basically his only allies now are rabble, anti-gay, kind of racial supremacists, the most marginal of right-wing marginalia. And he basically put this political block together, which he thought would save him some votes on the extreme right, ended up getting the more power than he thought.

Now he can't control them and they're running through the streets of Jerusalem screaming death to the Arabs, including literally legislators, a new MK member of Knesset, who he brought into the Knesset. So we're seeing all of this all together. Can you describe the kind of people we're talking about? Are they religious fanatics or something else? Yes. It's really important to emphasize.

This is a tiny group of people. This is a few thousand people in Israel, a country of 9.3 or 4 million. But they have gained a very powerful voice, especially lately. Because of the power, Nathaniel, I was given them. Let me just take a statement. step back before I talk about them to give the context in which they have been able to expand. Netanyahu is a prime minister who, over the course of a very long period in power, has basically emptied his party of most of the people who were important members of party, important members of parliament,

important ministers, anybody who he perceived of in any way as a threat was ejected from the party. So you have the former justice minister Dan Maridor. You have the legendary prime minister, Menachem Begin son, Benny Began was kicked out of the party. Gidon Tsar, who is a really hard right nationalist, but anti-corruption was kicked out. I don't want to go into too many details. But what I'm trying to describe is that in his attempt to hold on to power, his party has gotten smaller and smaller. It gets less and less votes. And the number of the active people in it are basically drawn from.

from a smaller and smaller puddle of people. And into that fit the extremists. And I'm talking about, yes, I'm talking about, I hate to say it, but the Israeli version of the kind of people who marched screaming Jews will not replace us, but these are screaming death to the Arabs. That's the kind of people we're talking about. Let me tell you, by the way,

that six rockets were just fired at Jerusalem from Gaza, by Hamas, like just now in the last few minutes. Yeah, it looks like it's a breaking story as we are sitting here. There's red alert sirens. Yes. We don't know exactly what's going on, but I'll keep tracking it as you guys are talking. Yeah. Netanyahu is challenged by the fact that he is on trial for very serious corruption charges.

And as a result of being the sort of suspicious, let's say, uneasy political leader who feels the need to eliminate anybody of any import in his party, plus the fact that he's now on trial and politically very weak has made him open to associate politically with extremist, open, racist, violent kind of groups that until right now, we're basically taboo in Israeli politics. Itamar Ben-Vir, who is a fan of Baruch Goldstein, the American. American-Israeli doctor who was a mass murder of Muslims praying in Hebron, I think November of 94, February of 94. Yeah, I remember that really well. So he's openly a fan of him. So when I tell you that Netanyahu is associating with the most extreme of the extreme, I'm not exaggerating. I'm simply

painting the picture of the situation. And this association is the fact that they have, what they feel is the backing of the prime minister. And the fact that members of these groups are now in the Knesset. This never would have happened without Nizaniyahu's active campaign support for them. This has given them a sense of wanting to really leave a pretty major footprint. And Jerusalem is their main playing ground. So the city has become a victim. None of these people really live in Jerusalem. Itemar Benvir lives in the tiny Jewish enclave of Hebron. These people are really extremists. And they basically take over the city. For people like me, is covering this, it can be very frustrating because we cover a prime minister who can't stop talking about

Jerusalem, our unified capital, Jerusalem. This Trump gave us Jerusalem on and on. And yet in reality, he has basically capitulated to the most extreme strains of West Bank, I would say kind of land rustlers, who believe that God gave them this land, flat out. And those are the people now on the Jewish side making noise in Jerusalem and violence. And on the Palestinian side, we have Hamas trying to make inroads. So it's the worst. Does Netanyahu have long to go at this point? There have been three elections in a less than four elections. Okay, in less than two years. And he has just lost his mandate from the president to try to form a government. It's been handed over to year. And I mean, do you think he can continue? What is keeping him in power at all?

What's keeping him in power at all is a bug of Israeli law and inertia. In other words, Netanyahu has not been able to put together a coalition government, as you just said, in two years through four electoral campaigns. But because he was prime minister in December 2018, when the government collapsed, he continues on as caretaker prime minister as de facto, if not de jure, prime minister until the next election. What Netanyahu has done,

realizing that he has not won any of these elections, he hasn't been able to put together a government after any of these elections, what he has done is once he fails to establish a government in these limited periods of a mandate that you just mentioned, what he then does is he tries to sabotage everybody else's chance so that Israel has now been without a national budget for two years, without a functional government for two years, and he gets to remain caretaker prime minister until a new government arises and a new person

has the title of Prime Minister X, until that point Netanyahu remains caretaker prime minister And from his point of view, right now, that's good enough. He wants to hold on to power no matter what. He tried to pull off a judicial coup. Two weeks ago or so, he tried to illegally appoint a kind of a crony to be the justice minister. He was stopped by the Supreme Court. He caused a real constitutional crisis second time in a year and two months that that's happened. He seems to be willing to do absolutely anything to hold on to power.

And when I say anything, I'm talking about a. associating with basically the David Dukes of Israel. We know nothing about that in the United States. Yeah, it's interesting the parallels that are going on. But what's the state of the opposition? There is no single opposition to Netanyahu, right? It's a very divided group of people. It is.

It's a very divided and ideologically, it's a very wide range of people from right to real left, like socialist type left. And real right, meaning both Viktor Lieberman, who's a nationalist right winger, very hard at secular and anti-corruption. That's his line. And even, which is the Islamist party, which also, frankly, was considered beyond the pale in Israeli politics, until Netanyahu, let's say, gave them an imprimatur. Again, he is willing to allow anyone into the political arena so long as he feels they might be able to vote

with him to cancel his trial. That is the big dream here. And that is what is at play. In Netanyahu's mind, he believes that a trial that is already underway could still be canceled and stopped, halted,

all of the proceedings if he gets the majority that he's dreaming of. And it is important for me to state something here. This is not a police investigation. This is a man who is indicted for fraud and bribery

and breach of trust who is on trial currently. The judges have been sitting for the better part of a year. So I'm mentioning that because what Netanyahu really is talking about is a coup d'etat. He's talking about unseating the judiciary. When he talks about getting his supermajority so that we can stop this stupid trial, which he does say publicly, he's talking about an attack that would end the Israeli governing regime,

as we've known it since he's established in the state. And these are not small matters. And it gives you an idea of how crazy he's going. willing to go on normal Israeli terms. If we look at the terms of what the Israeli political arena has been since the country was established 70 somewhat years ago, we are right now, we've walked off a ledge. And it's important to mention, I think that just generally speaking, it is a lot easier to understand this sort of eruption and violence that we're seeing today right now in Jerusalem, plus now it looks like 10 rockets coming in aimed at the Holy City of Jerusalem during Ramadan.

by an Islamist group in Gaza. But to me, it's easier to understand how such a thing could happen when you put in perspective the simple crisis of governability in Israel. Israel has not had a functional government in two years. Instead, it is led by a man who wants to get away, wants to cancel his trial. And that is weakening the fabric of Israel significantly. All right, angry planet listeners. We were going to pause there for a break.

All right. so much for listening, Angry Planet listeners. We are back into the conversation. So is the fear for him that he's going to go to jail for the rest of his life? Or what are the stakes for Netanyahu other than he seems to be a person who wants power at all costs? Well, I'm not a psychologist. So let's start with that. Okay. Fair enough. It seems to be more and more that Netanyahu has gone off on tangents that really are in the land of fantasy. So the notion that you can cancel a trial that's underway, not even have a mistrial declared, just cancel it, make it vanish.

The idea that you can appoint a justice minister against the law, that you can just appoint whoever the other one. These are more and more erratic behaviors that seem very distant to the normal Israeli way of governing and very distant to the sort of prime minister, Netanyahu was. Netanyahu, for much of his rule and much of his 30 years of public life, has been a guy who hewed very close to the norms. He was a big economic tech guy. He was not one of these people. But in recent years, something in him has changed. And I think he's affronted.

I think he feels a sense of offense that anyone could dare accuse him. I think he feels immune. And therefore, not actually being legally immune is an affront to him. I think we're in an area that's hard for me to analyze. but we are definitely seeing a prime minister who more and more is operating in the area of fantasy. He proposes as policies. I would like to add, by the way, annexation when I talk about fantasies. It's important to note about Trump appeared at one point to offer Netanyahu an American

okay to simply declare sovereignty on at least certain swaths of the West Bank, which is occupied and claimed by Palestine for a future state. Netanyahu never had the votes in the Knesset to do it. He never had the political support among the citizens of Israel to do it. When annexation failed to happen by the July deadline that Netanyahu himself had arbitrarily imposed, very few people said the truth. There was a lot of kind of political analysis around it, but truth of the matter is he couldn't do it. He's not the authoritarian leader of his own private army. There's certain things that you still need a government to do, and the Israeli government.

government is structured such that the prime minister has limited powers. For example, the prime minister cannot give orders to the army. That has to go through the defense minister. Decisions involving territorial definition have to be voted on by the cabinet, the security cabinet, and the Knesset. So again, if Netanyahu really was dreaming of this kind of annexation by decree, like it seemed he was talking about just earlier this year, we're talking about a kind of authoritarian fantasy, which is distant from the way the actual nation of Israel functions. So, again, we're in, we are seeing a very powerful leader, I presume, towards the very end of his days in power, and he's having trouble adapting to that. Whether in addition he's scared of going

to jail, he might be, I don't think he's thinking that far ahead. I think he's offended at the notion so anyone could convict him for anything. But I just don't know that. I'm not inside his mind. An update on the story. The Knesset has canceled its session as evacuating members to a secure location following the rocket launch. So let's go, if I may just say one thing. Let's return to the heart of Jerusalem for a second. You know, Jerusalem was really having a beautiful springtime until around two weeks ago. Ramadan began. Everything was fine. Passover was over. the Orthodox Easter had taken place. Everything was fine. And two weeks later, rockets are being aimed at Jerusalem. The city has been engulfed, like certain parts of the city, in rioting for two weeks.

And when you think about this, it was all unnecessary. This really began because of the rudderless government and stoking anger that could have been assuaged rather than inflamed. And I'm saying this with real sadness because in many cases, in many countries, kind of street movements that have eventually caused the deaths of many people have started because of these kinds of miscalculations done by irresponsible governments. And we are really seeing that right now in Israel. For people who have not been to Jerusalem, which I'm going to imagine quite a few people, there are a few things I think people should know. One, it's really beautiful. It's just a aesthetically a beautiful city. The city is made entirely out of a single type of stone. There's

laws about what kind of stone can be used. There are laws and they actually come from the period of the British mandate. But yeah, the city is by and large built by granite that locally called Jerusalem stone and that has a beautiful glow when the sun hits it at the end of the day. And it's tightly packed. And when you're talking about the old city of Jerusalem, it's just these narrow streets that twist and turn, it's truly an ancient city that people actually happen to live in. And if you're going to have any sort of struggles fighting, it's an insane place for it to happen. People, how do you even get out of the way of something like that? You don't, I mean, what's happening right now is Jerusalemites are not going to the old city.

And Tel Avivis are not going to the old city. People are afraid of the old city right now. It really is extremely sad. I just want to emphasize this. Jerusalem is a gorgeous city. There's a tradition during the month of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month, that the whole city is covered in like glistening light is like Christmas in terms of the aesthetics of it, but less kits. And it lasts a full month. And it's just very sad that the whole ancient part of Jerusalem that normally would be so festive right now has become an arena for combat. Now, I want to say it's a miracle right now. So far, nobody yet has been killed in Jerusalem. There have been three killed, three or four killed now in the West Bank, in sympathy, violent events, copying Jerusalem. So there's a chance that this still could be brought under control.

I think that the Islamic authorities, in other words, the wax, the religious body that controls the mosque of Alaksa Mosque and the Esplanade, I think they might be able to exercise a kind of control right now, at least over the young Palestinians. But I'm not sure about that. And I do fear that whether or not this becomes a massive uprising. I think it could peter out on its own in a few weeks. But I think this is beyond the control of politicians right now.

I think if the King of Jordan speaks up at the United Arab Emirates, Israel's new best friend spoke up with a pretty serious condemnation of the way Israel has been handling this matter in Jerusalem. and that has not affected yet that either the behavior of the government of Israel or the feelings of the young Palestinians. I think there's one other important thing to say at Jerusalem, which is that a lot of people feel that they own a piece of this city. So because it has this very holy shrine of Islam, the elaksa mosque and the whole esplanade of the mosques. every believing Muslim feels like there's a little tiny piece of Jerusalem that belongs to him or her. Because the western wall that was the retaining wall of the temple is in the Jerusalem,

it's part of that same structure, in fact. Many, many Jews around the world feel this genuine and deep attachment to Jerusalem. You know, a little bit of it is theirs too. And by the way, I would say really exactly the same about Catholics. Many Catholics because of the story of Jesus feel that Jerusalem is a little bit theirs. That's right where their Lord walked. There's something that is contributed to the city and to the, even the beauty of the city, the feeling of the city by the fact that so many people consider it a holy city in which they have a stake.

But what we're seeing now is politicians on many sides simply abusing this city and the symbol of this city. and certainly this holy month for Muslims to try and basically act like bomb throwers. This is not going to help Netanyahu. That is one thing I can say. I'm not sure what the, you asked me for, I'm not sure what the opposition government will look like. If they form it, it could be a very weak government. I think that's likely because any government that comes after a man who ruled for 12 years is going to be a little rickety.

but it's not helping Nizania who look like a strong leader in control that he has simply lost control of Jerusalem. That's not to his benefit. Just because I'm deeply ignorant of a lot of this stuff, can you explain what his supporters are? Like, who are the different groups? You'd refer to them earlier as the David Dukes of Israel. Can you outline the different, like, who his supporters are and what they believe? Yes, and that's a very good question. The people who I referred to as the David Dukes of Israel are not by and large, Likud voters at all.

These are people who voted for, there's like a micro party called Jewish power. There is the religious Zionist party, which has a kind of mainstreaming signing name, but is our extremists. The people who vote for the Likud, which is Netanyahu's party and the party has existed since the establishment of the state, are in many cases hardcore legacy voters. I would say, people whose dad and granddad voted for the Likud, so they vote for the Likud. It's a party that has extraordinary loyalty, part of its tradition, extraordinary loyalty between its members and its leadership. So I think in the entire history of the party, they've had five leaders, unlike, for example, the Israeli Labor Party that seems to change a leader every two months and is always filled

with infighting. But what's important to say is that the Likud used to be, in the 19, would say 80s, when Menachim Begin, I think I'm not mistaken, he may have come into power in the 70s, but in the 1980s, the Likud was in power, and it was a very wide tent. You had people who were secular nationalists. You had people who were just fundamentally conservative in their security outlook, but the Likud was never, for example, conservative in the American sense. The Likud is not anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-vax. It was simply a part of the, that had a nationalist view of the Israeli state project. The Likud today is a much smaller party.

At that time, they have about half of the seats in the Knesset. Now they have about a quarter, and it has basically become a personality cult. If you are a Likudnik today, it means that you're one of these guys who you're displaying your feeling of loyalty to Bibi, which is Netanyahu's nickname. As I think I said before, many of its leaders have been kicked out of the party. In fact, Netanyahu's rivals on the right today, Vigdor Lieberman, who we mentioned, who runs a secular right-wing nationalist party, Naftali Bennett, who may be about to become Israel's unlikelyest prime minister, who runs a more, I would say, religiously tinted version of right-wing nationalism,

them, Gidon Tsar, who runs a party like the Likud if it weren't run by Bibi party. All of these people are former Netanyahu wingmen, who the Likud has basically squeezed out, as they've squeezed out anyone else who won't operate as part of a loyalty pledge to Bibi. So the Likud voters are them. The extremists I'm talking about are not Likud voters. They're by and large, either members of just marginal groups whose names I may not even fully know, like the groups that runs this flag parade during, this is a settler group that runs a flag parade during Jerusalem Day, the one that was canceled. But the other ones are

people who vote for the extremist religious, in some cases, religious nationalist fringe parties. And they're not Likud members, but Netanyahu depends on them for his political life. And I think in his perception for his life. So he's willing to make space for them in his large right-wing coalition. Does the Lakud survive, Beebe, do you think? I think the Lakud will survive. I think the Lakud is a very diminished party right now, diminished intellectually, intellectually, certainly it's diminished numerically. I think the Lycud will bounce back, but I don't think it's going to be an automatic process. I think there's a whole generation of Israelis is going to have to get used to hearing the words

Prime Minister and not automatically think Bibi. I mean, he has been around for so long. You talk to a 25-year-old, you say prime minister, and it's not even a question. So I think there's going to be a long period of adaptation. I think the Likud may not find life easy in the opposition, if that's in fact what happens. And Nizeniahu has said that if they're in the opposition, he will remain party leader. I think if that happens and last and he becomes opposition leader, I think that would be pretty rough on the party and rough on the country because he perceives himself as the nation's leader.

But yes, I think eventually when the Nizanahu era is finished not only in terms of the country, but also in terms of the party, I do think the party will regenerate because I think there's a huge squad of the Israeli voters who perceive themselves as basically center-right voters, and the Likud could win them back. Is there any concern? We now have rockets coming in towards Jerusalem. Are there any other concerns from a security standpoint by having Jews running through the streets making death threats to Palestinians?

One thing that I don't know that anybody thinks about so much anymore is Israel is an island of Jews in a world of Arabs. And it's been a while since there's been a war, but what does this do for Israel's security, do you think? Well, I can tell you that the security establishment of Israel, meaning the army intelligence, the internal security, like the Israeli FBI, the Shinbet, border police, all of these organs that together form the Israeli security establishment are very am happy that the political echelons have allowed these groups to march through Jerusalem. And this is a very tricky thing, right? This is a few hundred people, let's say, maybe 1,000.

So it's a small minority. Of course, in theory, the laws allow them to gather and to protest. Nothing prevents them, even if they scream disgusting things. But what is extremely dangerous is, that these guys, when they're not acting violent, themselves are clearly inciting to violence and to racist violence. And the security establishment in Israel is very much afraid that this will lead to Jewish terror against Palestinians. It has already led to, I would say, an uptick in racist talk against Arabs who are citizens

of Israel. And it's just playing with fire. It really is playing with fire. And I don't, I hope, I'm right. saying this. I don't think we would be seeing this if Israel had a functional government running it. If the state were being governed, and I really don't believe it is right now. By the way, who participates in the Jerusalem Day parade anyway? No Jerusalemite participates in it. It's a parade of West Bank, Hilltop Youth.

So it's similar to here when people drive their trucks in from the suburbs into the middle of a city to participate in a anti-BLM parade or something like that. Like, is people coming in from the fringes of the community and then coming into the center to disrupt things. Exactly. It's people coming in because, yeah, they perceive an opportunity to be heard through those kind of provocative actions. And it's a pity that the city pays such a price.

Novi-Turna Polsky. Thank you so much for joining us today. My pleasure. That's all for this week. Angry Planet listeners. so much for tuning in. Angry Planet is me, Matthew Galt, Jason Fields, and Kevin O'Dell. It was created by myself and Jason Fields. If you like the show, please follow us on Twitter or Facebook and leave a comment on iTunes. It helps other people find the show. If you really like the show,

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