Animal Spirits Podcast - Bitcoin, Bubbles & Bananas (EP.06)

Episode Date: November 29, 2017

On today's show, we speak about the meteoric rise in Bitcoin through the lens of human psychology, discuss how difficult it is to break through as an up-and-coming fund manager, and some of the challenges to early retirement.   Find complete shownotes on our blogs... Ben Carlson’s A Wealth of Common Sense Michael Batnick’s The Irrelevant Investor Like us on Facebook And feel free to shoot us an email at [e-mail] with any feedback, questions, recommendations, or ideas for future topics of conversation.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Animal Spirits, the podcast that takes a completely different look at markets and investing. I hate the people who talk about it all the time, so I didn't want to be one of those people. From two guys who study the markets as a passion. Can I count on you to talk me off the ledge partner? Yes, and that's what this podcast is for. And trade for all the right reasons. That's my due diligence. I'm in. Dude, if you're in, I'm in.

A line of thinking is the higher the volatility on an asset, the higher the volatility on the opinions. so I feel like you have crazies on both sides. Here's your host of Animal Spirits, Michael Batnik. I can say that I was never driven by money. So you were trading three times leveraged ETFs for the love of the game. Exactly, man. I'm a purist. But anyway, and Ben Carlson.

This is true. I do not drink coffee. I've never been on Facebook. I've never done fantasy football. Oh, one last thing. Michael Batnick and Ben Carlson work for Ritt Holtz wealth management. All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben or any podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of Ritthold's wealth management.

This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for investment decisions. Clients of Rithold's wealth management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. Now, today's show. Welcome to Animal Spirits with Michael and Ben. I'm Michael Battenick, and I'm actually going to be alone this week because Ben is enjoying an early retirement from all of his Bitcoin portions. No, I'm actually here.

No, that's a joke. He's here. Yeah, I must have sold. before the weekend. So the crazy thing is Bitcoin is going bananas these days. The Wall Street Journal had a cool graph up and it showed the number of days it took to reach 1,000 point marker in Bitcoin, which becomes easier as the numbers get higher, obviously, because the percentage are smaller. But it took nine days for it to go from 5 to 6,000, 13 days to go from 6,000 to 7,000, 16 days to go from 7 to 8 and just 7 days to go from 8 to 9, which it blew through this

weekend. Don't fight the fundamentals. Yes. This is a pure income play, pure and simple. But the crazy thing is, I mean, the idea from people is that people went home and opened up a bunch of accounts after talking about it with their families at Thanksgiving. I don't know. I guess that's a nice narrative. But the other crazy stat I saw was from our friends at Bespoke Investment Group, they said that there are now more accounts open on Coinbase, which is a platform where you can buy Bitcoin and all these other cryptocurrencies. There's more accounts. open there, like 13 million accounts then on Charles Schwab, which is bananas. Obviously, people have more money at Charles Schwab because they have way more money, but that stat sort of blew me away.

Did you see this one? Yeah, that's nuts. I would love to see what the pie chart looks like of Bitcoin holders. And we've spoken about this earlier, not that this is so profound, but one of the reasons why, if it is a bubble, who knows, but one of the reasons why the price might be going so bananas is because there's just so much more demand that's applying. And again, that's saying be obvious. But the reason why we say that is because there are the zealots in there that have been in there since a dollar who think that Bitcoin is worth a million dollars and will never sell. So there's such a finite amount of supply and the demand obviously moves parabolicly with price. The zealot thing is interesting to me because I've seen the analogy that this is like

a religion because it's really based on trust, which I think is going to either be genius or really idiotic, right? In the future, like, if you, if you believe that, because we're all based on, we're these sort of storytelling creatures. And the, the one I saw was that this is a lot like the book Sapiens. And so Yuval Harari, which I thought that was one of the best books of the last five or ten years. So he asked, you know, how did Homo sapiens manage to break beyond the simple villages and small tribes into like huge cities and massive organizations and corporations. And so I found this piece, which I thought was was kind of, you know, topical for this discussion. So he said, the secret was probably the appearance of fiction. Large numbers of

strangers can cooperate successfully by believing in common myths, which is interesting because a lot of people are saying that that's all this is. It's the same thing as the dollar. It's, it's something people believe in and it works because they believe in it. So yeah, I think it's going to be a genius thing to say or an idiotic thing to say, depending on how this stuff all works out. But I still have a hard time sort of understanding it. So, or explaining it. And I try to pride myself on being able to take complex topics and explain them simply. But after our first, well, after our first podcast, my wife came to me and said, okay, what is Bitcoin? And I gave one of these, well, it's, you know, it's hard to understand and it's digital currency. I honestly don't have a good explanation. Do you?

No, that's so disappointing. I thought that you were going to like, you know, make my jaw drop. No, I honestly have nothing. The best explanation I've read was from Mark Andreessen, who's a venture capitalist. He wrote this back in 2014, actually, so I kind of wish I would have read this then and bought. But he wrote a piece, why Bitcoin matters. And he said, his simple explanation, which is, again, probably the best I've read. He said, Bitcoin at its most fundamental level is a breakthrough in computer science, one that builds on 20 years of research into cryptographic currency and 40 years of research in cryptography by thousands of researchers around the world. More generally, it's a it poses a question of how to establish trust between otherwise unrelated parties over an untrusted network like the internet. So this is one of the reasons that I am not a total believer, like I'm not a zealot on this stuff, is because I think it can make financial transactions more efficient and contracts more secure. But I don't know. I don't see that as being such a breakthrough technology. It seems like that could make our lives easier, but I don't see that being like the internet. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no opinion on the technology because I'm not

a technologically savvy person. So I have no idea. I mean, I think that if you're interested in the nuts and bolts, I would highly recommend listening to our friend Patrick O'Shaughnessy's three-part podcast, hash power. It was amazing. There was a lot of 0-1-11-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0. And sort of explaining how it works like. But yeah, it was a lot of that was over my head. That's definitely the best resource I've found. And I've read some of the white papers. I read a lot of the posts. It seems like they're all on medium. If you were at a Bitcoin post, it has to go on medium. I think that's pretty much a rule of these days. So you and I don't really have a strong take on how the technology is going to change the world one day. Potentially, it's already doing that or not.

But the psychological aspects of what's going on is really amazing. And I think that this is captured best by a few polls that Charlie Bellello has done about. the price of Bitcoin. So May 22nd, at $2,200 today, Bitcoin is. And he gave four choices, undervalued, fairly valued, overvalued, or a bubble. And then he did the same poll in November at $7,300 today Bitcoin is. And then he did the same poll just three weeks later at $8,200 today Bitcoin is. And what you would guess is that at $2,200, only 15% of the people said it was undervalued. And then at $8,200, 34% said it was undervalued. And then at $2,200, 51% of the people said it was in a bubble.

And at $8,200, only 39% of people said it was in a bubble. And I would put myself squarely in this category. I mean, I am very much just like everybody else. I was poo-pooing it early on, and now I'm not so sure. And that is exactly the way that financial markets work. Yeah, this is a great way to show how price drives a narrative. As price goes higher, it sucks more people in and people start believing. And that's a great. We'll have to post the picture of this in the show notes because it really is great to see those three poles right next to each other. And that's why this thing is so fascinating to me because it's pure psychological and it's human behavior. Because, yeah, like you said, this is probably in a bubble and no one knows. But this bubble could go on for a long time. It could have much higher to go or could end tomorrow. And no one knows.

Yeah. So my understanding of the technology has not really changed one bit, but I'm much more hesitant to call it. call this thing a bubble because, just because price has gone up, it's completely changed my way of thinking about it. Yeah, it almost like validates it to some extent. Yeah, Charlie also tweeted something, and I think that everybody started getting sick and tired of the, if you invests a $10,000 meme. However, however, this is really remarkable. If you invested $10,000 seven years ago into Bitcoin, it's now worth over $1 billion. Yes. So, yeah, it's that easy, right? Yeah. But I think that we would both agree that I especially have been very vocal about making jokes about Bitcoin. Not that Bitcoin is a joke, but I'm just trying to get a few laughs. But if you have been extremely bearish on Bitcoin, you can no longer be vindicated. It's up 900% this year, whether even if it goes down 90% too bad. Like move on. You lost. So I think that's pretty interesting too. I just never see the benefits of sticking your neck out there. saying this is a bubble or this is going to crash because you're trying to predict what human

beings are going to do, which is impossible. And again, this thing has no fundamentals. There's no income. There's no dividends. There's nothing to back this on. So it's a pure commodity, you know, belief play. It's based on, you know, faith in a lot of ways that this stuff is going to come through and it's going to be what some people think it's going to be in the future. And so that's why, you know, trying to predict when a bubble will start or end is impossible. And we get in these conversations with people of, well, what is a bubble and how do you define a bubble and people go back and forth into this stuff, which is, I think it's just fascinating to watch in real time. If you look at the chart of this thing, it's gone parabolic. It's amazing to watch, I think.

And so I think it's great to have a front row seat to this because for the, you know, it's hard to make historical analogies to this stuff. I think you could probably compare it to the tech bubble, but even that doesn't work because the amount of money involved is much smaller. But I wasn't really paying attention to the markets then. So having a front row seat to this, I think, is going to be amazing to watch and see what happens, which, again, I have no idea what will. So George Soros once said, when I see a bubble forming, I rush into buy. And that's usually the end of the quote. But the full quote is, when I see a bubble forming, I rush into buy, adding fuel to the fire. And he was able to do that, managing billions and billions of dollars.

But George Soros' right-hand man, Stanley Drucken Miller, had his career, not cut short, but I think he lost billion dollars going along at the very top of the 19 late 90s dot com bubble and on the other side another hedge fund legend Julian Robertson was short and got dragged out by the by the tech bubble yeah his fund actually closed I think in like the late 90s right Robertson yes so these things to your point are literally impossible to predict so it is just amazing to watch and I'm loving every minute of it. Yes. And the funny thing is as the price grows, you get like, it's like the snowball effect where people who do technical analysis jump in and then people who were gold bugs jump in. And it's just so funny to see these people come up with ideas to go to their sort of

universe and they attach to this because the price is going up, which I think is just fascinating to watch. It does seem that we have reached the point of certainly beyond euphoria. But again, I don't think anybody would be surprised with if this thing crashes. It has crashed multiple times. I don't think a crash is going to necessarily kill it. But is the crash going to occur from $9,600 down to $3,000? Is it going to go from $96 up to 18 back down to 12? Like, nobody knows the path that this thing is going to take.

Okay, listen to this stat that I calculated this morning just because I wanted to, and I thought it would be interesting. So it's at $9,700 a Bitcoin today, something like that. It started out the year at 964, so it's up like, you know, 900%. So if Bitcoin were to have a great depression like crash of 85%, it would take it from 9,700 to, say, 1450. That would mean even if it crashed 85% from today's value, it would still be up 50% in 2017. That's pretty wild. Yeah.

So, again, no one really knows. And I think that the most interesting part about this is that there really has been no big money Wall Street institutional into the space. And I wrote a piece about a month ago saying, I think the thing that could take this to a 10x bubble, you know, from here, is institutional capital and the big money coming in. The funny thing is, it really hasn't been that. It's been smaller investors that have sort of ridden this thing up, which is pretty insane. Yeah, you actually wrote something really interesting about this, that if there's a bare market in stocks and Bitcoin, whether there's a storm and maybe goes up and provides not just diversification, but actual crisis alpha, holy cow. Yeah, there's going to be so much

money flowing into that and people fighting the last war. So yeah, that's what I think will be the interesting thing is the next time there is a stock bear market, you know, whether Bitcoin has one before that or not, how does this stuff react to it? Which no one knows because it's like two months old or something. So yeah, it's crazy. I think we're going to have to keep paying attention to this because it just, it's not going away. And it's just a great lesson in sort of behavioral psychology. So anyway, there's obviously a lot of Bitcoin millionaires who have made a lot of money. So we're transitioning now from cryptocurrencies into early retirement. Like how I did that there that's pretty smooth right very smooth so someone sent this to me a while ago and i've been

hanging on to it because i was going to write about it but i just wanted to talk about it here so there's this community of people who are called like fire which is financially independent retire early it's kind of they follow this you know the mr mustache what does that stand for financially independent retire early fire and basically these people that save 50 60 70 percent of their money in their 20s and 30s and retire at like their early 30s or 40 and live off of a small percentage of their income, which I think is admirable if you're able to do that. But I think there's another side of it. So someone sent this to me, and this is actually from Reddit, which is a internet community that I am completely unaware of how to use. I'm always just sort of flunked by

it. But check it out every once in a while. So someone sent this to me, it says, hi, I'm mid-30s, very frugal, unmarried, no kids, virtually no hobbies, high salary, low expenses. And now I can retire whenever I want because I've saved such a high percentage of my money. So he says, you know, I thought when I got to this point, I'd be happier, more relaxed, but it's yet to happen. So basically, this guy probably works in, looks like he works in technology or something, saved a huge percentage of his money, and that was like the only thing he focused on because he wanted to get out of the working world. And he lived on a small amount of his money, but he realized, like, okay, I got to this point, now I can retire, now what do I do? He basically had no life because

he never spent any money. So I just think it's an interesting thing for, you know, again, the people that are able to do that. I commend them. But I think it's an interesting way to look at the idea retirement itself for other people as well. The idea is not just to build a nest egg. It's like, what are you going to do with it when you get there and how are you going to make yourself happy in the meantime? So we spend so much time planning for retirement, but most people don't actually think about like what are they going to do when they get there. Yeah. And even for people that don't retire at 26, but spend a full career accumulating money and build up a nest egg that will provide income and principal necessary to sustain retirement, it must be a psychological

hardship to go from one mindset for, you know, 40 plus years of saving and saving and saving and then flip the switch and say, okay, now we're going to spend and watch your principal potentially dip and just, you know, keep going down. So, yeah, no, I think it's going to be hard for me too. And there's actually, I just read a book about it that I'll recommend. It's called The New Retirementality by Mitch Anthony. I think there's been a few different copies. But it's got none of the usual stuff you think about in retirement. It's nothing about the markets. It's more about how to think about, you know, this new idea of retirement and whether you can keep working or how to prepare yourself. So I would recommend that one, but it's an interesting one.

I think this is just an extremely personal topic and there's no right answer. It's, I guess, finding out what's right for you. Some people have the opinion that money is meant to be spent and I worked hard to earn it and I'm going to work hard and play hard and spend it. And other people want to leave money for their kids or their grandkids. And it's very situationally dependent. Yeah, and I think my idea is that I'm a huge proponent of saving and saving early, but I think especially when you're young, you have to have a balance of actually enjoying yourself a little bit too, and you can't just have the one goal be to save as much money as possible. I just don't think that's any way to go through life and not enjoy yourself a little bit. So I think it's just my I always default to having a balanced position and sort of evening things out a little bit. Yep. So I saw a really interesting thread on Twitter from somebody whose name is vacation capital, and you could find this. this person at J-B-I-E, and we'll include this in the show notes, this person wrote, okay, I have something to get off my chest regarding the fund management industry.

I know many small fund managers that can't get a meeting slash allocations despite having stellar long-term returns and significant skin in the game. So you have a lot of experience. What did you think about this when you saw this? Yeah, this was interesting. You shared this with me. And I think it's an interesting way to think about, you know, again, this topic of career risk, which you talked about last time, because a lot of these huge institutional allocators

of capital, it's probably the way that they should find alpha, which is what they're trying to do, is to allocate to smaller funds. But for the sake of having their career, it's this sort of idiom of, you know, how do you not get fired? Everyone, you buy IBM. So that's the same thing here. No one's going to take a chance with these smaller managers that don't have the operational backbone or the long track record. They want to invest with the safe managers who managed a few billion dollars or have been around for 10 or 20 years and then they all invest in the same managers. So that's got to be one of the hardest games in town to play is a small emerging manager trying to get into the institutional side of the business where you can potentially

get billions and billions of dollars in capital because these allocators of capital, they want to see that you have everything, you have a risk management team, you have an operations team, you have the back office stuff squared away. And if you have all your documents prepared, you know, by lawyers and looking good. So that's got to be really tough to break into that industry as a small manager. And I get the point of this tweet, and I read the rest of them, you know, talking about how they don't hit all the checklists. But unfortunately, if you don't hit those checklists, you know, 99.9% of these huge investors aren't going to give you any money. So it's like a chicken and the egg problem. Yeah, I don't even think that these people are necessarily looking for billions.

It's like it's hard enough just to get to, you know, 10, 20 million and above. But it didn't always used to be like this, right? I mean, a track record used to be enough. Yeah, no, that's true. And part of it used to be someone to spin out of Goldman Sachs or one of these huge banks, and they'd immediately get a billion dollars. And I think it's just getting harder and harder where I can't remember the exact numbers, but it's something like the top 20 hedge funds control 80% of the assets or something similar to that. And it's just really hard if you're on the smaller end. And the regulations are getting such to the point that if you are that small, it's really hard to stay in business because there's a lot of costs involved with setting up and running a fund too.

Yeah, and to your point, I found this handle who I had not previously followed from somebody by the name of shit fund that's at shit fund. And they said that indexing, yeah, to your point, this person said indexing is not a choice for pensions, endowments, and other institutions because most of them would lose their jobs. So they choose active management with large managers to minimize career risk. So, right, nobody's getting fired for using Citadel. Yeah, exactly. That's a great way to put it. And I think a lot of these people just, they like to be wild because if you look at the difference between this huge well-run machine, like a huge fund that has all the sales and marketing people and everything behind them in this operational backbone versus someone just starting out, you know, and you get in the room with both of these people, there's no way you're going to go to a small one because it's safety and numbers in the other way. It's just, it's really hard to break through there. So these people allocating capital will forsake potential alpha to not get embarrassed or lose their job.

Oh, yeah. And even David Swenson in his book, pioneering portfolio management says that the best way that we earned all returns is we partnered early with a bunch of funds and we seated them and got them going and off the ground. But there's a lot of risk involved there because not only are you worried about career risk and underperforming, but you're worried about some of these funds not making it. We had a lot of funds for the old endowment I worked for where the whole fund would shut down. So we had one fund, it was like a distressed fund, meaning they invested in distressed assets, and they had one huge institutional backer. And this institution decided to pull their capital, which was like 75% of the fund. And the portfolio manager ended up shutting the entire fund down because of it. So even if you are able to get over that threshold and get a big backer, you better have a bunch of them. Otherwise, you know, if a fund completely goes down, you're out of luck.

And so I think there's a lot of that risk too or headline risk of, why would you invest in a fund that closed up and didn't make it? So that's part of the problem, too. But you said, if you're going to find outperformance, that's where it's going to be. But you're not just worried about market risk in that scenario. You're worried about manager risk, too. Yeah, so it's understandable that a lot of these anonymous hedge fund people have a chip on their shoulder because they are playing a game that seems really unfair and I'm sure personally, financially, emotionally, just very, very difficult right now. Yeah, it's tough. It's a tough space to be in.

So let's move on to some quick market statistics that we've found that were interesting this week. Again, we're beating a dead horse with this, but Eric Balchunis had another incredible statistic in the tweet this week. BlackRock and Vanguard account for 78% of the $400 billion in ETF flows and have all 15 of the top 15 products. Well, I guess this is kind of the same thing where if you're a small provider in this space, it's really tough to gain. market share but that's pretty that's pretty insane and by the way Eric is a great follow on ETFs if you're interested in that stuff he's he's really interesting dude yeah so there's been there's been so many amazing statistics come out of this year I really think that 2017 is shaping up to be the year of stock market superlatives and one of the things that

I came across last week was and this is completely meaningless just sort of huh 2017 could have the smallest max daily gain for the SP 500 for any calendar year going back to 1964, which is 1.38%. So in other words, the biggest single daily gain for the S&P 500 this year is just 1.38%. So volatility has been absolutely squashed. And there's a chart that we'll link to. This person on Twitter, VIX squared shared this, and it comes from city research. There's a chart showing the number of days with the close under 10 for the VIX, using rolling six-month windows. And going back to 1990 when the VIX was created, It's basically zero.

There was a little blip in 94 and another little blip in the great financial recession or crisis. And then in 2017, it goes parabolic like the chart of Bitcoin. Which is another interesting thing about bull markets that a lot of novice investors don't understand that you'd think that there's these huge gains in price. But bull markets are really just chipping away in a slow, slow stair step up. And the volatility you really see is when markets go down. And so, you know, this is a work that you've done a lot on, and I have that maybe we can touch on in the future, the fact that volatility spikes during bear markets and when stocks are going down.

And so the huge gains you see are actually when stocks are falling because they fall much worse, and then they rise much worse, where you have this huge up and down pattern versus something like the last few years when stocks are going up, they just grind slowly, slowly higher, which makes it really hard to invest in and understand how bull markets work because it's not easy because it just sort of lulls you to sleep. Yeah, this is like slow momentum. So volatility begins volatility, and the opposite is also true. And there was an article in Bloomberg last week touching on this that strategists, the title of the post is two strategists see a sequel and the works for next year. And in Ray Dalio's new book principles, he says almost everyone expects the future to be a slightly modified version of the present. And I don't think that there is any other way around that being the case, right? Like you, we, we, we, you, we, everybody, we extrapolate the recent past into the future. Yeah, so that's why every 2018 outlook you read will basically just be in addition to what happened in 2017. We see this trend continuing or this trend will stop. And yeah, it's the recency bias, which, again, it's easy, but that's a good quote by Dalia. They like that one. And this is why momentum and value maybe will be distorted by money, by the ETFization of it. But this is such an embedded human bias that it cannot be armed away. I mean, the

cycles might be longer or shorter or whatever, but this will persist as long as people are coming together in a marketplace. Yeah, I agree. Okay. If we know anything else, you want to get to what we've been consuming lately? Yeah, sure. So this weekend, I watched the Jim Carrey documentary when he was playing Andy Kaufman in Man on the Moon.

And Andy Kaufman, I don't, you're not a Howard Stern fan, but Andy Kaufman sort of reminds me of like a more contained sour shoes, who's a whack packer. And he was just sort of this wacky guy that would piss off the audience and do things that were just made no sense. But anyway, so get it back to the documentary. So Jim Carrey, wow, what an odd person. The documentary was, I'm sort of had a lost words because the documentary was just so unusual and very powerful.

So I'm not sure that I necessarily liked it as the right word, but it was definitely worth watching. Well, he was on comedians and cars getting coffee with Seinfeld. I don't know if you ever watched that one. and he definitely seems like one of those celebrities who is trying to be so self-aware that he's not self-aware, if that makes sense. Like, he seems like he's gone off the deep end. Yeah, he strikes me as he is even past the point of what is the meaning of life. Like, he's three steps past that.

Yeah, so that was something. And then the other one I watched, so my wife has been bugging me to watch us. She saw one trailer for this movie and has been on me about it. So we watched it. It was called Ingrid Goes West. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's a new one to me. So it is about an Instagram stalker.

And it was funny because as we're watching it, my wife thought it was a comedy. And I'm like, why are you laughing? This is not funny. I genuinely don't think this is a comedy. And it's really creepy. So it started out, I guess, sort of kind of funny. And then got progressively creepier and creepier. So in my mind, it was like a psychological thriller, kind of.

It was just sort of, it was uncomfortable to watch, and my wife was laughing, so that's kind of funny. Okay. So that's what I've been up to. Okay. Well, I'm not on Instagram yet, so I guess I'm safe. Okay, my first recommendation this week is actually an email newsletter by Polina Maranova. It's called The Profile.

And it comes every Sunday inbox. I can't remember who recommended this to me, but I've probably been subscribed for the last four or five months. And basically what it does is she puts together all the best, like, long reads from the last week. So it's like six or seven recommendations. usually profiles about companies or business leaders or entrepreneurs or professional sports people and it's really, really good and it's often these long reads that you, you know, you might miss

or not see during the week and it's a great way to catch up on some really good reads. So I really like that. How did you find that one? Someone must have recommended it on Twitter and I signed up and I started coming in my inbox and every once in a while she has a great read that I just completely missed. And so it's a really cool way to put together these things and aggregate for you if you, you know, if you missed a good read on a person or a business or an idea or something. The movies I've been watching lately, I've got a couple good recommendations lately.

I haven't been a fan of movies much in 2017, so having two good ones in one week, I think, was pretty big. So I really like The Big Sick, which is the Judd-Apital movie that he put together about the guy who gets in a relationship and his girlfriend gets in a coma after he breaks up with there. Yeah, it's actually based on a true story. Is that the guy from Silicon Valley? Yes, yes. Kumal Nagiani, if I'm saying his name right, it's really good. He was actually way better and like, it was actually more serious than I thought it would be. It was a really good movie. I like that. And then the other one is called Life, which was with Ryan Reynolds and Jake Gyllenhaal. And they are in space and they're collecting like specimens from Mars from a shuttle that went there. And they find life on Mars. And they're stuck on this space capsule. And the thing comes to life. And it's not as people expected. It's kind of.

And then the punchline is that Elon Musk was already there. Yeah, right. His colonies there. So that's a good one. It had a really clever ending, which I won't spoil and give away. But I thought that movie Life was pretty good, too. Okay. I never heard of that, so I will check it out.

So, all right, that ends the show for today. Thanks for listening. You could reach us on the blockchain at Animal Spiritspod at gmail.com. And we'll see you next week. Thank you.