Animal Spirits Podcast - Talk Your Book: Buy Low, Sell High in China

Starting point is 00:00:00 Today's Animal Spirits is brought to you by crane shares. Go to cranechairs.com to learn more about all their whole suite of ETFs, emerging markets, China tech companies, they have options selling strategies for income. You can also sign up for China last night, which is their daily newsletter on all things China. It's crane shares.com to learn more. Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about markets, life, and investing. Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing, and watching. All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Ridholt's wealth management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any

Starting point is 00:00:41 investment decisions. Clients of Ridholt's wealth management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. Welcome to Animal Spirits with Michael and Ben. Michael, I've done a lot of studying historically on the sea change we saw in the U.S., really in the early 1980s, of 401Ks and IRAs, and how big that was for the stock market. And the story goes that once IRAs came around, people had a reason to invest in stocks for the long run. It, like, forced them out on their time horizon. Like, oh, I'm going to have more money in the stock market because of this vehicle. Mm-hmm. So we learned on the show today talking to Brendan Ahern from Crane Shia.

Starting point is 00:01:23 is that China has never had anything like this before. And I think we take for granted how far ahead we are in terms of retirement planning, financial products, than most of the rest of the world. But it sounds like China is just now ruling out their first ever tax-deferred retirement strategy for consumers. They had pensions, but they don't have much of a safety net at all. And that is just kind of mind-boggling to me,

Starting point is 00:01:49 but it also makes sense of why the stock market is so ingrained. than us culturally because for the last 40 years, the stock market has been a big part of everyone's, not everyone, most people's retirement saving plan. Yeah, this was a great conversation with Brendan. We got into all of that and what is going on with China and how do we get these stocks out of the doldrums. And yeah, we are, I would say this is as close to forget, hated. It's almost beyond that.

Starting point is 00:02:17 It's apathy. Nobody cares, which is one of the key ingredients in a turnaround. Of course, these things are impossible at a time, and they're necessary, I would say, but not sufficient, right? Like, there has to be, there has to be something to change the tides. And we spoke to Brendan about what that could be. So we talked recently in animal spirits about the bears throwing the towel on U.S. stocks. But it feels like internationally, I don't think the sentiment has ever been this bad. In my career, it's never been this bad before.

Starting point is 00:02:46 Sentiment on anything outside of the U.S., it's, yes, interesting times. I don't know what that sentiment means. We've talked that valuations alone are not enough to cause a sea change in these things, but I don't think the sentiment could get any more, worse, or beaten down. Agreed. All right. On that sunny note, here's our conversation with Brendan Ahern from Crane Chairs. All right, Brendan, something Michael and I have been talking about recently.

Starting point is 00:03:17 So you take the AQUI All-World Country Index, All-Country World Index, however, it's pronounced, market cap of the U.S. is like 65%. China is less than 3%. But you look at the GDP weighting, the U.S. is 26%. China is 17%. Explain to me this divergence, especially from the China front. Why is it that it's such a big part of the global economy, but such a small part of the stock market for the globally? I mean, one element, in my opinion, is just the American an exceptionalism, just since the GFC low, the S&P 500 is up 1100% and all country world XUS is up not even one third of that, just over 300%. And then I think countries and emerging markets like China historically had very high value

Starting point is 00:04:13 weights. So financials, energy were more than 50% of the EM benchmark, more than 50% of the EM benchmark, more than 50% of the China benchmark 10 years ago. And you throw in industrials, materials, real estate. These are basically slow, no-growth sectors. So this idea that, you know, China's underperform because, you know, it's a communist country or whatever, you know, that's not really true. Because if you looked at a growth element in China, so MSCI China tech has done almost 2,500% versus the S&P's 1,100 percent since that GFC low, but there's only 2% of the index. And that's literally why we created crane shares was to say this growth element in China that is correlated with GDP growth

Starting point is 00:05:04 is so underrepresented in indices that you've got to go out and get it. And that's literally like, you know, KWeb or KMQ, right? It's literally why we built these ETFs to give you that growth factor for China in emerging markets. How hard is it to get the Chinese consumer to care as much about the stock market as we do here? Is that just going to take a few generations? How does that happen where culturally stock market is such a big part of our national economy and the conscience here? It's a twofold factor. One is that China is not a socialist country. There is no social safety net in China today. If you lose your job, there's basically no unemployment.

Starting point is 00:05:50 If you get hit by a car, you have exceedingly basic health care. You have a de minimis social security in China. And so the very high savings rate is out of the necessity of you're responsible for your old age. Culturally, the Chinese really care about their parents, grandparents. not shipping them off to Loboca Vista and some, you know, they're living with you. And so you save a lot out of necessity. So, so A, you're going to be very conservative. And then I think the other factor is that housing investing in China's been, you know, kind of the broken slot machine.

Starting point is 00:06:38 It's just the gift that keeps giving that no one has ever lost money investing in real estate up until about, you know, call it two, three years ago. I thought you were going to say, I was like, is that a joke? It sounds like the curse that keeps cursing. The broken slot machine is that it always pays out. And it's just real estate because of urban, the government policy of urbanization, Chinese cities just get bigger and bigger and bigger. And I kind of like, you know, I always say my mom's from Denver.

Starting point is 00:07:09 And so I spent my whole life going to Denver. And, you know, when I was a kid, you'd fly into Stapleton. you know, the Brown Palace was by far the nicest restaurant in Denver. And, and, you know, when they put the airport out, you know, the DIA, you know, it's like, man, that's things out in the middle of nowhere. Well, now the city goes also. So that's like, that's like 130 cities in China. Just and so you'd be like, well, if you know the city's going to grow, you just invest in where it's going to grow and you're, you're rich. And then that, that music stops. So that means that most of the money, most of that savings is just in real estate and cash then,

Starting point is 00:07:44 I assume, to your point about no safety net, it's mostly just very conservative. Upwards a two-third of urban household wealth is in real estate. What's that here? So here in the U.S., most, you know, yes, housing is a big part, but you also have very, very significant stock holdings in China. Well, said differently, Brendan, so like I, like, do, so rich people here have a portfolio of real estate and private investments and public equities, is that not the case with rich people in China? No. Maybe three to five percent is invested in stocks. You also have,

Starting point is 00:08:22 even insurance is very low in China. And so it's just culturally, and that's what's almost people say, oh, you know, the Chinese investors like gamblers. No, no, no, no. It's the opposite. They're the most conservative people. But if you're going to only put three percent into the stock market, you're in it to win it. You're going the most aggressive. So it's a, and that it's, it's kind of interesting, Michael, it's one of the things we think, A, just like literally this week in China, they announced that the base of what we would call IRAs, where you'll be able to put in 12,000 RMB into like an IRA. It's a tax deductible contribution. You can invest it. And they did it in 36 pilot cities.

Starting point is 00:09:10 Hang on a second. Brendan, they've never had retirement accounts? Not like an IRA, like an IRA. It never existed in China. Some of the bigger companies have like pension plans. So if you're at like a big state-owned enterprise, you have a pension, but it's probably de minimis. Your social security, it's like $250 a year. I mean, it's literally nothing. Some of the newer companies are starting to get into 401Ks, as well as some of the publicly traded private tech companies do have ESOP plans. Okay. So let's talk about these companies that you all own in K-Web. So we understand the idea of the state-owned enterprises and the real estate suck and wind and all these slow-to-no-growth companies. But the companies in this portfolio, these are

Starting point is 00:10:07 growth stocks, but the stocks aren't growing. So let's talk about what's going on with these companies. What's going on with the earnings? And you mentioned that they're kicking our butt since the GFC lows. But if you look back over the last three or five years, they've done they've done horrendously compared to our tech companies. So is this like a lack of investor enthusiasm or the company slowing down? What is the story and how do these companies get back on track? Yeah, it's both. I mean, I mean, some of the decline, I think is due to just the fundamentals that these companies went from, you know, high octane, you know, 20, 30 percent. And because of this collapse in housing prices, you've seen the consumer get very, very conservative.

Starting point is 00:10:51 And that means the transmission engines for e-commerce are feeling that. Because the economy slowed, you don't have as much advertising. You know, there's less mobile payments because people aren't buying. there is a fundamental that these companies have slowed. But I also think it's these companies like non-U.S. equities have been, you know, totally kicked to the curve. I don't think that's unique to China. No, I don't know what the average U.S. non-international, you know, international, you know, international waiting is, I bet you it's all-time lows. I would agree with that.

Starting point is 00:11:33 We know, we know, you know, you know, the, you know, you look at EM funds and their top holdings are U.S. stocks. That's, that's just to survive, to stay upright. You know, and I kind of say like that, that, you know, S&P up 1100, Akriax, U.S. U.S. up 313. I mean, that's 15 years. That's 60 quarterly statements, you know, trustee meetings, board meetings, board, you You know, your investment, you know, I mean, and I'm sure, I'd be curious, you know, I'm sure Michael and Benin, your practice, people are like, why do you hold this non-U, it does nothing but underperform, like get rid of it.

Starting point is 00:12:10 And, yeah, and that, but what I would argue is that is global. I mean, the amount of foreign capital in U.S. stocks. Yeah. It's, it's very high. You're right. But apathy and even attractive valuations, unfortunately. That's not a catalyst. No. So. Valuation is not a catalyst. So, yes, you're right. There is absolutely no interest, which is like if you're bullish, you like to see that. But I could have said this a year ago and two years ago.

Starting point is 00:12:44 So what do we need to have happened? Has the real estate washout been sufficiently washed out such that the Chinese consumer is going to start buying it? And I don't mean buying stocks. I mean, buying goods and services and all that sort of stuff to make the 10 cents of the world go up. Like, how does that happen? Thus far, we've not, you know, the government is doing a lot to support real estate. And that's, A, to try to get real estate prices to stabilize or stop going down.

Starting point is 00:13:17 It's also how real estate and infrastructure employ a lot of people, you know, you know, plumbers, electricians, cement mixers. home appliance makers, right? There's this, you know, real economic effect. So what we've not seen is the rebound in consumer confidence thus far. But what we are seeing is in terms of like a re-rating of China, it would require the Chinese to buy China. And there I would say the companies are all buying stock hand over fist, particularly the K-Web companies where you have a tech entrepreneur is the founder and the CEO or the chairperson, you know, the buyback yield on a lot of these companies is high single digits, if not, you know, low single teens. And then you're also seeing money come out of mainland China into buying these growth stocks in Hong Kong. So it's over 90,

Starting point is 00:14:19 it's about 94 billion year to date has come out of mainland China and, buying these gross stocks. That's more than double what they did last year. And then I think what you're starting to see is where did the China money from China or from, you know, Asia go? Well, I think it went to Mag 7, Japan and India. And in this China rally, it's kind of interesting that India and Japan kind of came down. You know, they've, and that that would indicate.

Starting point is 00:14:55 that broader Asian investors, and that's almost been our thesis of like, listen, we're not saying like sell all your U.S. stocks, like, you know, definitely not. I'm just saying, why wouldn't you do what your MBA or CFA or CFP designation taught you, which is- Because it's not working. Well, because it will, it will. And, you know, buy low and sell high, right? You know, buy just a smidge of cheap China and sell just. And sell just a smidge of cheap China and sell just just a smidge of U.S., and, you know, there is someone buying, which is some of the hedge fund managers. The reason that we got this huge run-up recently, obviously, is because of the big stimulus that China announced. And it almost seems like it feels like this happens every few years.

Starting point is 00:15:42 Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong. But I feel like this time, most investors and pundits are saying, uh-uh, you're not going to fool us this time. It's not going to work because Chinese stocks went crazy. I think your fund went from being down on the year to up like 40 percent in a matter of what, a couple of weeks probably. But the rally did fizzle again. So explain to us what, I'm trying to put it into perspective. Like, explain to us the stimulus. Maybe you can compare it to like the COVID stuff to figure out like how big this actually

Starting point is 00:16:06 was and what they're actually doing. Yeah, yeah. So, A, you know, they're get housing, right? So, you know, they've refinanced every mortgage in China. Yeah, they've, you know, they're trying to incentivize buying to. So they gave lower rates, lower mortgage rates to everyone. Yeah. And that's been part of a broader.

Starting point is 00:16:25 interest rate cutting that we'll see that, you know, they waited for the Fed to cut them, they'll cut because they don't want to be. Has that spurred housing activity at all yet? It has. Transaction volume has increased. We're not seeing, and in the big, big, rich cities, prices have stabilized. What we've not seen is in the lower, you know, kind of middle class, poor cities, prices have not stabilized. So, so you'd say like, okay, it's starting. They are doing what people have wanted to see is the Western style, you know, free money to spur consumption. And the view has been, that's just a sugar high that leaves you with more debt and high inflation. And so they've been very conservative in direct consumption discounts other than in auto sales, which includes EV and hybrid and home appliances.

Starting point is 00:17:25 And you'd say, why those two? And there, it is working. I mean, some of this Chinese EV data that you're seeing is the consequence of the subsidies to buy autos. Why is that? Well, get just, you know, I don't mean to put you on the spot. Like, B.YD, guess how many people they employ in China? 69 billion.

Starting point is 00:17:48 Is that in yen? Over 700,000 people. Wait, hold on. I'm only teasing, obviously. Wait, 700,000 people are employed in B-YD. Okay. So if you, if you, when you give a auto subsidy, think about the knock on effect it has for automakers that they employ more people, you know, the people that work there get paid more.

Starting point is 00:18:13 So, so people have really poohued like, hey, we're not seeing direct consumption, but, but they're doing it almost implicitly. And very similar that they've said, you know, we're going to. clean up the balance sheets of a lot of local governments. People like, hey, what does that do for consumption? But in a lot of these provinces, particularly the poor provinces, the local governments employ a lot of people. They do a lot of contracts with local companies. So it's an implicit consumption effect. So just getting back to what Bet said earlier, are they interested in getting people to care about their stock market? They care more about the Shanghai, Shenzhen market.

Starting point is 00:18:54 than say the Hong Kong market, because that Shanghai, Shenzhen market is a daily barometer of consumer confidence. And that's been giving the government a thumbs down. Like, like, people are like, hey, not enough. And that's where they- But this idea that they could just snap their fingers and make their stock market go up, they can't. Because if they can't, if they could, they would. Why would they've thrown a lot of money into like their their sovereign wealth fund, their social security fund have been, you know, they've allowed insurance companies to buy. The sovereign wealth of China has put, it's estimated at least 150 billion into stocks over the last year. That's a lot, which is a lot. But you're talking about like a multiple.

Starting point is 00:19:48 multi-trillion dollar market cap. So they're pissing into the ocean. So let me ask you this. Is there any way that they would adopt something similar to Japan? And I don't know all the details where they're like, listen, if you're not training at at book value, you're going to get removed from the index. If you're not doing dividends and returning, creating shareholder value, we're going to get, we're going to remove you.

Starting point is 00:20:07 Like, is there, is that just so antithetical to their culture? No, no. Because they want, you know, they part of what they want to do is they want to create that American style that the stock market is a store of value versus money going into brick buildings, which they don't need any. So yes, so if you're a company, you can get a basically interest-free loan to buy back your stock or pay a dividend. They've actually said to mutual fund families and insurance companies, we'll give you a loan

Starting point is 00:20:39 to buy stocks. What about convertible bonds at 0% interest and then they just start buying Bitcoin? We've not seen that. We've not seen that. So we talked about how valuation isn't a catalyst, obviously, and it does seem like everyone is ready to throw their intelligent investor book in the trash. But how much cheaper are your tech stocks in your portfolio than, like, the basket of the Mag 7 or whatever?

Starting point is 00:21:06 Are Chinese tech companies noticeably cheaper than American tech companies? Oh, I mean, come on, like the backward, you know, Apple's PE is 37 versus like the K-Web PE is like 12, you know, like... So your portfolio is trading out 12 times earnings? Yeah. Jeez. And they're all tech stocks. So how do we get that high?

Starting point is 00:21:28 Those are rookie numbers, Brendan. Yeah. So, so, you know, that's where this re-rating idea, you know, who is buying? And, you know, there are some well-known hedge fund investors who, and hedge funds can hedge, right? I mean, that's... But, you know, I saw, I saw, I was in Asia before, Thanksgiving and, you know, I saw Howard Mark speak. And, you know, he said, listen, like, I made my career buying stuff out of the bargain bin. He better be buying. If he's not buying

Starting point is 00:21:57 China, he, he is. He is. He filed, Oak Tree filed for several China ADRs for the first time they initiated in Q3. Now, now I was in Q3 13F data, no different than other hedge funds. I mean, they could be here today, gone tomorrow. I know. Yeah. Well, David, David, David, David, was on TV getting pretty damn excited. Well, I think he saw what, you know, if, you know, and to his credit, he, you know, he started buying a few quarters ago. All right. So he probably sold already.

Starting point is 00:22:28 He may have. I mean, we don't know. I mean, he's, you know, we just don't know. But I think, yeah, I mean, you know, Michael Burry. I mean, you know, these are, you know, some legendary people are dipping their toes or coming back in. And I think, I think the issue, the elephant in the room is, is the geopolitical. That, you know, as a professional investor, you know, and if you're a pension, a U.S. pension,

Starting point is 00:22:55 you know, how do you say, I'm going to buy more China when the narrative is so negative? I mean, even for yourselves as financial advisors, if you, you know, if you bought China, you know, how many phone calls would you get? Right. It's not easy. So how does that, how does that, all right, so there's obviously geopolitical headline risk that is helping to compress multiples lower, is there any way in which these fears about Taiwan

Starting point is 00:23:20 or whatever, like get lifted? Like, is there, like... Wait, I have the catalyst. I have it. Isn't it just not even like an AI blowup, just an AI hiccup where AI somehow sends these big tech stocks down because obviously the rest of the world is not trading on AI these days. Isn't that the catalyst?

Starting point is 00:23:37 I, you know, I don't see it as a zero-sum game. You know, I'm not rooting for U.S. stocks to go down. I guess in theory, professionally, I have no exposure, so what do I care? But personally, yeah, I mean, I've got a lot and, you know, I'm an American. It would be bad, right, if U.S. stocks collapsed. I think it's just more of the sum of the pulling forward of forward returns that we're seeing after the election. Just did things kind of go flat in the U.S.? But guess what?

Starting point is 00:24:08 If things go flat in the, if things go bad for Apple, they're not just going to magically go well for Chinese tech stocks. So the headwind that I'm talking about, like, will they, won't they, potentially invade Taiwan, if there is somehow a resolution, and I know nothing about this, but if there is like a, hey, people get less worried, can that re-rate stocks higher? Yes. And that's where I think the geopolitical, A, it could be the dollar. I mean, I do think if the dollar were to weaken, it just makes U.S. stocks, which are obviously dollar denominated, a little less attractive.

Starting point is 00:24:43 for foreign investors. And I'm telling you, foreign investors are up to their eyeballs in U.S. stocks. You know, the Treasury Department releases that data only annually. And it's, I mean, I can't wait to see it at 2024. Is that true for Chinese investors too, that they're bringing all their money out to U.S.? Out of, out of Asia, there's a lot of money out of everywhere. I mean, I kind of say like, you know, MS, guess how much MSCI Chile is up since the GFC low? 4%. Close. 50.

Starting point is 00:25:21 I mean, S&P is up 1,100. Chile's up 50. So if you're a Chilean investor, like 50% over 15 years, like give me, you know, like, guess where your money, you know? But so, Brenda, this is like, this is the conversation that every investor is is having. like, this has gone on for a long time, but it's not just going to magically stop this, the continuing divergence of both valuations and returns and profits. There's got to be something.

Starting point is 00:25:55 There's got to be something. Well, I think, I think one, it's potentially the dollar. And the other thing would be the geopolitical overhang going that, you know, a Trump bargain with China allows people to come back into the space. And every, all the data shows, particularly U.S. investors have have no exposure to China, very de minimis exposure to the non-U.S. equities in general. I mean, I mean, these EM fund families, these non-U.S. focused fund families are all going out of business. I mean, I mean, literally. And, you know, I would just argue that trade probably looks a little long, but what's keeping people from buying?

Starting point is 00:26:42 The decks have been cleared. The decks have been cleared. Yeah. So just you need, you need the thing that's kept people from coming back in, you know, which is, I think, the geopolitical. And I think that's a big deal, even for institutions. I think it is a big deal. Brendan, what do you say to people that are like, all right, fine, let's just say that I do want to get some exposure to China because pessimism is so extreme. that you just got to hold your nose and buy because this is how long-term investing is typically rewarded investors, is buying what everybody absolutely hates. And then they're like, but I'll just buy the casino stocks. I'll just buy the U.S. I'll just buy, I'll just buy win.

Starting point is 00:27:24 Well, I mean, A, I've said, you know, you are implicitly invested in China because of Apple and Vidae and Exxon Mobil. You know, these great U.S. multinationals all have a lot of China revenue. So you're already there. You're already invested in China. It's just more of, is there an opportunity for the local companies? And I would argue yes. One would be, you know, just take that idea of a smidge, you know, just like a little smidge. You know, A, you know, you have to volatility adjust this stuff. So that way you don't get shaken out. So this is, you know, if your normal positions, three, five percent, I'm like, make it a third of that. You know, like, literally like if this stuff is twice as volatile as this and p 500 then buy half of it and then two

Starting point is 00:28:12 would be like you know for some people you can use options around kweb you know you can write calls and or or hide it and that's where we're talking about clip are we talking clip brandon i don't think we ever spoke to about clip did i did i did i win or is it still k lip oh wait what did i call it i called the k lip you guys call a clip i called we call a clip well a lot of people call kweb the kweb no Nobody calls it the quab. And people do. There's a group out there. So Clip does that for you, right?

Starting point is 00:28:42 It just writes a call. And that's giving you four to five percent monthly. But you can do that yourself if you don't want to outsource that to us. So those yields are still pretty high on your call writing strategy. Yeah, yeah. And so I'm curious on the fundamental. So one of the things that Michael and I've been talking about on the U.S. tech stocks is, yes, they've had this amazing run, but the fundamentals have also matched.

Starting point is 00:29:04 So what, like, how do the growth rates of these tech companies in China compare with the growth rates of, it doesn't have to be in video because that's in another universe, it seems like, but just the other tech stocks. Yeah, and actually that 13 PE is actually the forwards. So just, you know, that's the one year forward. Right. But, yeah, I mean, I think, I think A, the companies because of this domestic consumption coming down, top line growth, been single digit, high single digit. it's on the bottom line where the companies are buying back so much stock, you're seeing

Starting point is 00:29:39 earnings per share growth increase. And so the companies do need this stimulus to filter through into the economy, into consumer confidence. The thing that's been hard is that markets must be forward looking. And so we've seen, you know, I think a lot of people are surprised that, you know, since the jan i think end of january was the bottom in chinese equities and people would be like that you know since then kweb is up like 30 40 percent it's it's just it's not been like a 45 degree it's been two steps forward one back two steps forward one back but arguably technical analysts would be like it's higher highs higher lows right like it's actually doing what markets do it just doing it in such a compressed time frame well here's hoping brand that i have

Starting point is 00:30:32 to, I have to for the record for your compliance department and also for our listeners to make sure the record is straight that Caleb is distributing four to five percent a month or whatever it is. That's not, that's not the total return that you're expecting because that's an annualized 60 percent. And I don't think, I don't think you want to say that out loud. No, no. I mean, listen, this is, you know, I think it's an interesting tool for, you know, people who need need income. Just want, yeah, of course, just wanted to be on the record for that. Okay, so, Brendan, listen, here's to hoping that Chinese stock stabilized, that something turns a story around because, as we've mentioned, this entire episode, there is investor

Starting point is 00:31:09 apathy, the deck has been cleared, there is nobody who's excited. And historically, of course, the timing of these things is impossible, but that has been one of the key ingredients to a turnaround. So for global investors and everybody else, let's hope that China's stock together act together. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, obviously KWeb has been our flagship. But I kind of say like, you know, KEMQ is just the EM version. It's just this growth factor for you. And then it, it hides the China. So as, you know, you can, you can own this EM growth factor. And okay. So that's that's, that's what we call it Grand Rapids hedge right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. I mean, I'm up to my eyeballs in K Webb personally. So I'm like, So no one knows how volatile or knows the performance story better than me. And, you know, honestly, that's that, you know, following the valuations, engaging these companies, listening to their quarterly calls over the last four years is what actually hurt me where I was like, man, like these companies, they've been basically been eviscerated,

Starting point is 00:32:21 but the management of the company are big believers in their outlook. and they're proving that by buying buying so much of their stock. I mean, I mean, Alibaba is about two to three percent of their ADR's volume every day because of its buyback. Wow. Wow. All right. Brendan, we're going to leave it there. Thank you very much, as always, for coming on.

Starting point is 00:32:46 That was a hell of an education on everything that's going on in China. So thank you. I appreciate your time. Wait, tell us people where they could find more about Caleb and all your funds. Yeah, yeah, certainly just right on. Craneshares.com. With a K. We've got a wealth of information.

Starting point is 00:32:59 Crane Shares with the K. All right. We'll see you next time. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Michael. All right. Thanks to Brendan, who was coming off of knee surgery for this talk. Credit to him.

Starting point is 00:33:11 Shoot or shoot. Yep. Production team made him turn off his ice machine for his knee. He gutted through. Thanks to Brendan, as always. Great conversation. Remember, visit craneshares.com to learn more about their fun. And email us.

Starting point is 00:33:25 spirits to compound news.com.

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Animal Spirits Podcast - Talk Your Book: Buy Low, Sell High in China

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