Animal Spirits Podcast - Talk Your Book: Customizing Your Assets

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

On today's show, Michael and Ben are joined by Matt Radgowski, CEO of Halo Investing to discuss: customizing your assets, utilizing structured notes as a hedge, latest innovations in defined outcome products, and much more!    Find complete show notes on our blogs... Ben Carlson’s A Wealth of Common Sense Michael Batnick’s The Irrelevant Investor Feel free to shoot us an email at [e-mail] with any feedback, questions, recommendations, or ideas for future topics of conversation.   Check out the latest in financial blogger fashion at The Compound shop: https://www.idontshop.com Past performance is not indicative of future results. The material discussed has been provided for informational purposes only and is not intended as legal or investment advice or a recommendation of any particular security or strategy. The investment strategy and themes discussed herein may be unsuitable for investors depending on their specific investment objectives and financial situation. Information obtained from third-party sources is believed to be reliable though its accuracy is not guaranteed. Investing involves the risk of loss. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be or regarded as personalized investment advice or relied upon for investment decisions. Michael Batnick and Ben Carlson are employees of Ritholtz Wealth Management and may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this video. All opinions expressed by them are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Ritholtz Wealth Management. Wealthcast Media, an affiliate of Ritholtz Wealth Management, receives payment from various entities for advertisements in affiliated podcasts, blogs and emails. Inclusion of such advertisements does not constitute or imply endorsement, sponsorship or recommendation thereof, or any affiliation therewith, by the Content Creator or by Ritholtz Wealth Management or any of its employees. For additional advertisement disclaimers see here https://ritholtzwealth.com/advertising-disclaimers. Investments in securities involve the risk of loss. Any mention of a particular security and related performance data is not a recommendation to buy or sell that security. The information provided on this website (including any information that may be accessed through this website) is not directed at any investor or category of investors and is provided solely as general information. Obviously nothing on this channel should be considered as personalized financial advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any securities. See our disclosures here: https://ritholtzwealth.com/podcast-youtube-disclosures/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today's Animal Spirits Talk Your Book is brought to you by Halo. If you were an advisor, go to Haloinvesting.com to learn more about how they have created the first marketplace dedicated to protective investment solutions. Haloinvesting.com. Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about markets, life, and investing. Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing, and watching. All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Redhol's wealth management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any investment decisions. Clients of Ridholt's wealth management may maintain positions in the

securities discussed in this podcast. Welcome to Animal Spirits with Michael and Ben. We've been talking a lot on the show lately about tradeoffs, risk, reward, that sort of thing. And one of the tricky things about the relationship between reward and risk is that it's, it's It's not static, or is it static? Wait, am I using that right? No, it's not static. There we go. Thank you, Ben.

In William Bernstein's new book, which I've mentioned a bunch of times lately, he talks about how different markets behave correlation-wise in inflationary and non-inflationary environments. And in inflationary environments and high-rate environments, you see the correlation between stocks and bonds rise, which makes sense from last year, right? Stocks and bonds both fell. The non-statist.

It's a double negative. It threw me off. Yeah. I'll give you an A for effort. So I think that that really threw people off last year is that the supposed hedge you thought in a down market didn't happen because stocks fell because bonds fell. And so I think maybe some people have rethought their relationship with bonds or are starting to rethink about how they find more of a one-to-one correlation as a hedge. So we talked to Matt Radgowski from Halo today. they created a hedge that does that, like, up to a certain cap, as the market falls, it hedges

you and you get a reverse return for that. Do that make sense? Not explaining it's correctly. Well, guess what? We do a great job explaining on the show. So without any further ado, here's our conversation with Matt Redkowski. We're joined today by Matt Radgowski. Matt is the CEO of Halo. Welcome to the show, Matt. Great to be here. Sure. I appreciate it. So we've had Jason Barsim on the show a few times, but for those listeners that might have missed previous episodes, if you wouldn't mind just a refresh of who Halo is, what are you all bad? Who do you work with? And then we'll take it from there. Yeah, for sure. So Halo investing is a two-sided marketplace. Our job is to bring protective investment solutions to the marketplace and connect the issuers of structured notes, annuity products with advisors, as well as the enterprises that they see. serve. And so, you know, our job is really to, you try and create solutions whereby advisors can easily integrate those products that, quite frankly, aren't as commonly used today.

We're certainly hoping to grow their adoption and utilization, but create, you know, efficiencies in the operations as well as, you know, ways they can better use these product solutions inside portfolios. Matt, one of the things that Jason has talked to us about in the past that surprised Michael and I, is that the structured product market is places way bigger outside of the U.S. You'd think a lot of the financial products would be used more in the U.S. because of a big and robust our markets are. Not the brag. What is the reason for that?

Why did they take off in other countries and why hasn't that expanded so much in the U.S. yet? Yeah, I think it comes down to the investor themselves, how they're wired, how they think about the markets, what's important to them. And so I think if we look at utilization of structure products in Europe, for instance, I think you have an investor base that, you know, if you think about the pension schemes that are common, the insurance-based schemes that, you know, you exist within those markets where you have an investor base that's very focused on disciplined accumulation of assets, pension-type security of income, you know, in their retirement phase,

the note is a natural solution in those environments. And so if we think about, you know, the stock market in the U.S., and it's how it came about, you know, quite frankly, it's more of a speculative environment, right? Trying to find that next big stock, get that hot stock tip, capitalize on it to grow your investments. And so, you know, we saw, you really, again, an outsized usage outside of the U.S., based on just the way those investors are wired. Here in the U.S., again, focused more on accumulation, most on driving, driving return, less interested, quite frankly, at least in the past,

I'll say, you know, on the protective nature of the solutions that are offered. That makes sense. It's a risk-tolerance type of deal, basically. You got it. That's it. Yeah. So defined outcomes have been growing in popularity, particularly in the ETF world. Structure notes are a different wrapper, a different investment field. Could you talk about some of the tradeoffs between some of the things that we're seeing come to market on the ETF side versus what a structure note delivers, just some of the pros, cons, or whatever? Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, getting to the center or really the heart of the matter, it really comes down to ease of implementation within a client portfolio.

And that's really why I think, you know, the ETF, you've seen, obviously, tremendous growth. You know, when BlackRock decides to get into space, you know, it's gaining in popularity and momentum. them. And so I think it's really around the access, right? You have a ticker-based ETF that an advisor can easily purchase through their platform of choice today. There's also just the perpetual nature of the ETF, right? There's creation, redemption that's ongoing. Doesn't get called away. It doesn't get called away. That's exactly right. And so that perpetual nature of the product, I think, creates an attractiveness to it. Now, I would say on the other side, right, in terms of terms of the note, you know, just the customization, right, the ability to create and deliver

unique structures, the nimbleness of them and how they can be brought to market, whether we're talking about a calendar-based option or a very custom reverse inquiry-based option, there is additional flexibility in terms of the types of risk-and-return profiles that can be achieved in the note. Obviously, then you need to manage that lifecycle, and we can talk a lot about how we try and enter that equation. But those are, I think, the biggest differences between the two, the perpetual nature of the ETF, right, as you point out, lack of callability, ease of consumption, right, just in terms of buying it on, you know, buying it on an exchange relative to buying that note with a set duration, there is the prospect of callability. You need to manage the life cycle in

general in terms of what it's going to mature or when it might be called. That's a great answer. two of the trends in investing, as I see it, are customization. That's a big one. And I would put this certainly way further down the spectrum in terms of relevance, but still gaining in popularity is defined outcome. Now, not for everybody, of course, but there are a lot of investors that are willing to trade off whatever upside there may be cutting off for wherever they set their personal risk tolerance on the downside. There's tradeoffs, everything else. One of the nice things about notes is that you know the tradeoffs. You define them, right?

With stocks and bonds like 60, 40, 70, 30, you could define your risk tolerance, but you can't really define the outcome. So what Halo is doing, it's really in the sweet spot of those two trends. Maybe talk a little bit about the customization that you offer on the platform. Yeah, for sure. So, and just take it, I'll take a big step back. This is actually why I am at Halo. You know, I've spent my entire career, you know, developing, building, delivering,

delivering, selling, you know, portfolio solutions. And so that customization you talk about is one of the key reasons. You know, I will go back into the defined outcome as well if it's all right. And you dig in as to why I think that is actually hugely relevant. And I would say, you know, moving up, right, in terms of its relevance to both advisor and investor. And so, you know, from a personalization perspective, I think that, you know, just in general, the consumer, right, if we even zoom out from financial services, you know, think about us as

consumers. We are very demanding. We're very fickle. We want what we want, when we want, how we want it. You can create your own custom pair of Nikes, get it tomorrow. Just in general, the demand for products that speak to the individual are there. It extends right into the portfolio. You know, that individual wants to know that their portfolio that is being developed for them reflects what exactly they want what they're after in terms of, you know, return, risk, and outcome. And so the ability to personalize, the note, I always make the comment, what could be more personalized than your own Q-SIP? You know, if you think about, you know, reversing query, building a note for yourself, nothing more personal than your own Q-Sip there. But the ability

to set those parameters very specifically in terms of, you know, what is the exposure you're looking for, you know, in terms of the underlier, whether it's an individual stock or index or elsewise, you know, what are the characteristics of both upside participation and downside risk? To your point, those tradeoffs, quite frankly, are welcomed by a lot of investors, and it actually speaks to the planning process that we can potentially dig in as well. And so, again, the ability to tailor in that experience for that investor gives that advisor a definite advantage in terms of how they market themselves.

to their clients. The technology we've built allows them to do it at scale, which is obviously key. You know, you could build the best personalization infrastructure, but if it doesn't scale, there's just no way that practice can grow, you know, as they'd like. Matt, what was your, you mentioned your background. Were you on the banking side of things? Are you creating these products? Were you on the financial advisory world? Where did you come from? Yeah, so, you know, in the retail advisory and wealth manageable world, so I spent a bulk of my career at Morningstar, a great place, had a wonderful opportunity to, you build traditional portfolios, mutual funds, ETF-based solutions as well as software solutions there, whether it's financial planning

or other types of investment planning tools. And so, you know, in, Marco, you pointed it out, right? Like the process that a advisor usually goes, you know, heads down, right? They're trying to target some rate of return, maybe through a financial planning tool, maybe elsewise. They come out with a return hurdle. right, 7%, 8%, 9%. And then they take a 70-30 and hope, right, that the performance over time aligns with it.

And I think, you know, the note, again, to me, is a very beautiful structure. And basically, to your point, taking a bit of the top side, removing that uncertainty on the downside, really driving towards that outcome that investor says they want. And for me, I'm always looking for the next best mouse trap. And, you know, when I was sitting there in my traditional mutual fund and ETF world, it was exposed to what the structured note could offer, you know, really changed my mindset in thinking. And that's, you know, that's quite frankly, you know, through a series of conversations, how I ended up, you know, here at Halo. One of the biggest inputs to the note that dictates the outcome is, our interest rates. And given that the market rate environment looks vastly different today than

it did maybe a year ago, can you talk about how advisors are changing how they use notes and and how the level of starting interest rate impacts the outcomes either way? Yeah, this is actually a hugely important topic. And I think actually, in my opinion, if we get through, right, there's this shift in terms of product usage that we've seen. And I really do believe it could actually lay the foundation for dramatic increase of usage. And so. I'm shocked to hear you say that, Matt.

Yeah, no, right? I know. I meet it. And I'll try and give you some reasons other than, optimism as to why I think it will happen. But, you know, if you think about a lot of usage of notes, great source of income, right, in that low interest rate environment, it was a great source of alternative income. And so you saw some pretty great yields that could be generated through that, through that structure of the note. You know, as we've seen, you know,

yields rise, right, if you think about traditional fixed income markets these days, you actually saw, and we've seen, right, you saw it through back half of last year into this year a dip in note volumes in the U.S. And, you know, that obviously gives some cost for concern, right? Is the structure still appropriate for the investor base today? You know, given this, you know, a heavy, heavy focus in terms of income-oriented notes. And so what we're seeing, though, is a shift in utilization. And so to your point, you can participate in the growth of a underlier, let's just say S&P 500 or, you know, the combination of the indexes you're using as your strategic asset allocation policy, you know, the shift to growth note, the growth

note allows you to participate in that upside, you know, but set a buffer or barrier on that downside. And so it really does, in my opinion, shift towards making the note a core allocation to your equity portfolio. So it's an equity replacement. You're layering in a edge within that portfolio. And that's where, again, I do think there's an attractiveness to the solution for core portfolio allocation. And so what it's being used for has shifted, right? So we're seeing shift from income notes to the growth notes.

We're actually seeing the market's running up. And that does two things. One is, you creates the FOMO, right, of the person with the cash on the sidelines that's trying to figure out when to come into the market. And the note itself can be a great tool to say, hey, hey, look, you come on in, right, get that equity exposure, but do it with your downside protection. And for the individual that was, you know, I'll say smart enough, right, to participate in this

massive run-up in the SFP-5, they now may be, you know, maybe a little bit more concerned, right, around where valuations are, have we topped out, what do I need to do in order to make sure I maybe take some risk off the table? And the note again, right, can be a product used in that situation to say, You know, let's allocate to the note, right? We can still maintain our equity exposure, but then mitigate that risk on the downside if we do, in fact, see, again, you know, volatility return and maybe some, you know, some, you know, some profit taking, you know, within the equity markets. And so, you know, so again, I think its utilization is, has changed. We're seeing,

you know, volumes catch up to the levels we saw, you know, at the, you know, through last year. But again, I think the way it can be used in a portfolio is such that it can be a strong, you know, kind of, let's call it, you know, omnipresent allocation. It's not the sledgehammer of every nail, like you say. It's, again, there's no panacea, no free lunch, right? But it can be used in a disciplined way to either entice investors that are kind of, you know, a little bit of trepidation about getting back in or those that are in can create some, you know, some protection against, you know, downside swing there.

Can you explain some of the similarities and differences between the growth and income notes that you were mentioning? Yeah, so the biggest difference, right? And you know, you'll kind of keep it at its core is, you know, what is actually produced in terms of the outcome. And so when you price an income note, right, the, the output from that issuer, so the issuer basically says, for this underlier, for this duration, yeah, I will effectively pay you a coupon. an annualized yield of X percent, right? And so that's kind of the basics of it, right? So it's, again, similar to a traditional fixed income instrument and that it has a yield

that it is willing to pay, again, still based on certain parameters of the market, right, in terms of its performance, you know, it's subject to the performance of the market. But again, the outcome is delivered in the form of a yield. where as opposed the growth note says, okay, if you give a duration, and there's ways to set different parameters, but for a simple example sake, if you give it a duration and you give it a level of downside protection that you're seeking, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 percent, you know, in the form of, you know, there's hard protection, soft protection we can get into if we'd like, but you basically set that protection level you're looking for, and the output or the return

is the participation in that market. So if you have a S&P 500 growth note, it will say you can participate in the S&P 500 at a 150%, 120% participation rate subject to some cap, right? So that's kind of the resultant, you know, the resultant output or experience from the note. So if you kind of think about it, it's yield,

right? I'm going to deliver a yield or I'm going to deliver a participant. patient in that equity underlier with some downside risk mitigation. Now, let me push back a little bit or see some clarity on a potential hedge. So let's say that you've got 30%, or let's just say 40%, whatever that doesn't matter, 40% downside protection, no matures in two years, right? So if the market falls 50%, so I buy the note over the next six months, the market falls 50%,

it recovers and the market is down to. 20% at maturity. So great. You get your money back at maturity, but the hedge didn't necessarily kick in because there was like a timing mismatch. It's obviously no fault of anybody's, but you're not hedged against downside, really, unless you get, unless the downside corresponds with the maturity date. What is wrong with that line of thinking or maybe add some context to it? Yeah, so I guess just I'm going to kind of replay the question to make sure I'm getting it right. And so you're basically saying, really, I'll sum it up by saying the protection only matters at maturity, right? Is that kind of, yeah, I guess the pushback to what I just said is, well, listen, so if the market falls 50%, your note doesn't drop 50%, right?

So you could look at it that way. But the hedge is, the hedge to the extent that the hedge exists, it's at maturity. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. So you are, you are in fact enticed to hold that note to maturity. Now, in that example, right, so if you hold that note to maturity in the market, you know, when you come back, so say over the duration of that note you described there, the market is down 20% at maturity, right? You're paid back at par, right? So your initial investment is protected. You've insulated yourself from that 20% downside. And so that is where, you know, in terms of the ultimate strategies, you may want to, you know, similar, quite frankly, let's call it to a ladder bond scenario. Maybe you want a ladder in. notes with differing maturities, right, at differing levels of protection, given what you've

seen in that market. But to me, I think, you know, and just want to make sure we're on the same page there. Like, yes, you're absolutely right. The only thing that matters in terms of that protection is what happens at maturity. However, that protection is there for that full duration of your hold. Yeah, I guess, I guess said differently, it's not like a liquid hedge. It's not as if the market falls 40% that you could then, like, cash. out, right? It's not like, it's not like tail risk insurance or anything like that.

That's exactly correct. You're, you're exactly right. Yeah. Yep. And that's where, again, I think some of those laddering strategies can come into play, right, where as you're seeing things happen in the market, and you're seeing, you know, just, you know, where your, where your note performance, you know, lies relative to your gap, you know, time to maturity, that may cause you to make additional decisions around additional note purchases. Actually, here is a direct hedge that it's not liquid, but here's a hedge that we've never spoken about with Jason. I don't think maybe we have.

Can you talk about how absolute notes work? We actually have, I'll say, an interesting, you know, note idea that's gained a lot of traction. And so basically, yeah, so, you know, I'll give you an example, right? So this note I'll share as an example, and I hope that's okay. We'll sort that out later if we need to, guys. But so in this case, right, for example, a note tied to the S&P 500. And basically it says if that note trades down more than 25% from when it's issued, that note is immediately callable. Sorry, when you say that note, do you mean like if you buy, you mean if the S&P 500 drops by that amount?

That's correct. So it's an S&P 500 linked note. So S&P5 is the underlier, right? In this case, if the note itself, I'm sorry, if the S&P 5 declines, lines by more than 25%. That note is called and your principal is returned. All right? Now, here's where the absolute comes in. Where's the caveats? Wait, hold on. I want more, I want more color on that. Yeah. So what's the time horizon of that note? Yeah, it's 18 month note. All right. Now, so if the S&P 500 falls 25% or more in an 18 month window, you get 100 cents on the dollar.

You got it. What happens at maturity if that doesn't, if that's not the case? Okay. So if the, if the The S&P5 down is down between zero and 25%. It will actually pay the absolute value. So if it's down 15%, it will pay you 15%. Right? So that's where the absolute note comes in. Oh, okay, I got it. And what if the market's up 20%?

I assume there's a cap on the upside? There's a cap. On this note, it's your capped at about 6 to 8%. So it's a bearish note. Let's just be honest here, right? But it is. If you have concerns about where the market is, If you think it's overheated, overvalued, that absolute note will, again, pay you the inverse.

To up to a point, you were at a negative one correlation to the market. That's correct. Yep. At maturity. At maturity. This is why I am a fan, obviously, this is not a investment advice. But I am a fan of customization. Now, there's a limit.

You know, I don't want clients moving all the dials and stuff. Obviously, as the advisor, you want to control the outcome and present them with the reasonable options. But what you described to me for a portion of a portfolio for somebody who is, you know, a little bit on the nervous side, that's a reasonable way. Now, could somebody say there are better ways? Oh, fine, fine. But I think it's a reasonable, a reasonable hedge. I agree with all the caveats you mentioned, you know, I'll double down on those and then say, of course, right? You know, and I mentioned, you know, it's no hammer to every nail. There's no silver bullet. But again, yeah, it is a, it is a, you know, a very strong tool that can be utilized.

really in many different ways within that client's portfolio. In this case, again, like you said, if you have some trepidation, right, if you're concerned about where the market is, you know, it's a way, quite frankly, to engage the investor and keep them, you know, in the market, right? Keep them investing, which I think is absolutely critical, right? In terms of their overall ability to fund their needs in the future, you know, the thing we want to emphasize is, you know, again, you know, not to get too soapboxy, but keep that investor, get them in the market. market, keep them invested in the market, and make sure that they don't, again, miss out through timing miscalculations, which, again, can be crushing to portfolio performance.

There are obviously ways to get opportunistic here. And I think one of the things that Jason has mentioned to us in the past, that he's always kept a sleeve of structured products in his portfolios. Are there any strategies that advisors apply to their portfolios, their client portfolios, where they're agnostic to what's going on in the market or levels of rates where they just say this is the strategy that we're going to implement come hell or high water. Are there any interesting or unique strategies that advisors are doing that way where they're just saying, we're keeping a sleeve of structured products, and this is the way that we're looking at it.

Yeah, it's funny. I say this a bit tongue-in-cheek. I don't know if they're interesting, but they're definitely utilized, right? And so, and that actually, I think, you know, in a way, speaks to the utility of them. And so, yeah, we've, you know, I'm sure Jason has talked a lot about, you know, hedged equity strategy or just notes within his portfolios. And so, So, you know, we have seen note programs that basically, you utilize that note, I'd say almost like if you think about, and I lived a lot of my life in that target date world, where as your horizon, as you move through your horizon and you move towards ultimately the point when you're moving to, you know, from accumulation to decumulation, you're basically systematically taking risk or what you perceive as risk off the table by moving into fixed income from equity. And so we've seen a lot of advisors utilize a core allocation to that growth note with downside protection throughout their asset class exposures. You know, you see it varying in terms of size, and we'll talk about how Horizon impacts that. But basically, as a core allocation, just to say, regardless of what's going on in the market around me, I basically want exposure to those asset classes, but I want to do so in a risk, you know, a risk-managed way.

Now, what changes over time is, as that individual progresses through time or valuations or other outside factors indicate, they'll actually increase the level of protection. So if you think about it, instead of a Goliath where you're trading off equity risk, right, for fixed income risk or shortfall risk or other risks, you know, the risk just don't go away. They're actually using them to increase the protection level as they progress towards retirement date. So, again, they stay invested in the market, so they continue to accumulate, right, which manages shortfall risk while also, again, you know, keeping that downside protection. This is interesting to something Michael and I were talking about recently. What was the Bloomberg chart last week, Michael? Like, the put-option protection is as cheap as it's been in how long?

I can't remember. A couple of years, I think. Yeah. Is that something that you're seeing the options that the, which kind of seems bizarre considering the market's going up, but there's some dynamics going on to the market. where it's actually cheaper right now to buy a protection than it has been in the past? Yeah, and we're seeing that for sure. And, you know, again, I'm going to raise my hand and say no expert, right, in terms of the underlying causation of that, right?

I don't want to, you know, definitely don't want to put myself out there as such. But, you know, it definitely, again, seeing that, you know, there are some, you know, very strong, interesting, right, pricing there, you know, in terms of these growth notes. And yeah, again, and that actually allows for the participation rates, right? You know, if you think about participation rates, which is where that would, you know, the cost of that hedge would show itself, you know, you're seeing some, you know, some interesting, you know, participation levels, you know, come through there. Matt, given the nature of the platform and how many knobs there are to potentially turn, I'm guessing that there's no plans for this to be open to. the general public, right? Right now, you have to go through an advisor to buy this. Any ambitions to go direct to consumer? So I think, you know, the market itself, right? We're talking about a hundred billion

market today in issuance, you know, 100 billion dollars, 100 billion dollars in issuance in 2020. And so I think there will be a point in time in the distant future, right, where, you know, just the maturity of the investor base, right? If we just think about, you know, know, how markets tend to work, access to analytics and information, just the ability to understand nuance grows, I will say available in the European marketplace today, effectively direct to consumer, right? You can walk in and buy. And so I would say, we'll get there.

However, there's just a lot of, to me, value in the advice that comes along with them. I am a true believer in, you know, the job the advisor does. I think, you know, building portfolios with notes, you know, again, is so nascent, you know, just in terms of the adoption across the advisor base, and until it can be easily incorporated into the model, in terms of the life cycle being managed easily, you know, in terms of just, you know, general market knowledge and understanding, I just think there's a lot of work yet to be done. I think we'll get there. I just think there's a lot of work yet to be done. And I just think, you know, for me, I think we might be just a too soon to get there. But promising future, right? I think investors are smart. I think they've taken to tools as they've come to market. But again, just the complexities of it. You mentioned the knobs, the buttons, the knobs, the levers that can be pushed and pulled. I just think right at this moment, as an industry, we're probably better off arming the advisor with the tools and technology and the know-how to effectively use them.

And those strategies, as they, you know, are continued to be refined over time, can then be parroted in a more direct-to-consumer way. Great. Matt, where can we send advisors to one more? You can send advisors to haloinvesting.com. Perfect. Thanks so much, Matt. We appreciate the time. I really appreciate the time today. Thanks again to Matt. Thank you to Halo member HaloInvesting.com And send us an email analyst pearspot at g-mail.com.

And we'll see you next time. Thank you.