Animal Spirits Podcast - Talk Your Book: How to Spend With Morgan Housel

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

On this episode of Animal Spirits: Talk Your Book, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Michael Batnick⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠��⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ben Carlson⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ are joined by Morgan Housel, author of “The Art of Spending Money,” to discuss: Lambos, tipping, travel, spending your money with a purpose and his new book. This episode is brought to you by VanEck. Learn more about the VanEck Rare Earth and Strategic Metals ETF: http://vaneck.com/REMXCompound Find complete show notes on our blogs... Ben Carlson’s ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠A Wealth of Common Sense⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Michael Batnick’s ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Irrelevant Investor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Feel free to shoot us an email at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ with any feedback, questions, recommendations, or ideas for future topics of conversation. Check out the latest in financial blogger fashion at The Compound shop: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://idontshop.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Investing involves the risk of loss. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be or regarded as personalized investment advice or relied upon for investment decisions. Michael Batnick and Ben Carlson are employees of Ritholtz Wealth Management and may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this video. All opinions expressed by them are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Ritholtz Wealth Management. See our disclosures here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ritholtzwealth.com/podcast-youtube-disclosures/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Compound Media, Incorporated, an affiliate of ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ritholtz Wealth Management⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, receives payment from various entities for advertisements in affiliated podcasts, blogs and emails. Inclusion of such advertisements does not constitute or imply endorsement, sponsorship or recommendation thereof, or any affiliation therewith, by the Content Creator or by Ritholtz Wealth Management or any of its employees. For additional advertisement disclaimers see here ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ritholtzwealth.com/advertising-disclaimers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Vanek. Rare earth metals are the hidden backbone of modern technology and defense, powering everything from smartphones and electric vehicles to fighter jets and wind turbine. Vanek recognized this early, launching the rare earth and strategic metals ETF, ticker REMX, 15 years ago well before supply chain security became a global priority. Today, China dominates the production and refining capacity of rare earth, creating real challenges for the global supply security, as these materials are essential for technological innovation, clean energy, and national security.

That's why countries around the world are racing to build their own supply chains and reduce reliance on China. As this global shift continues, investment in the rare earth ecosystem is growing rapidly from mining to advance manufacturing. Investors can access this powerful trend through REMX. Visit vaneck.com slash REMX compound to learn more. Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about markets, life, and investing. Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as they talk about what their reading, writing, and watching. All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Ridholt's wealth management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any investment decisions. Clients of

Ridholt's wealth management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. Morgan, how are you? I'm doing well. Nice to see you guys. Thanks for having me. Okay, you're welcome. Great to see you too. All right. So I read the book. and I enjoyed the shit out of it. I kind of thought, I was like, I know Morgan, I know how to spend money. I don't need to read it. I don't know how to spend money.

I know it's a great book. Cool. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Okay. I want to start here. He doesn't tell you how to spend money, right?

That's the whole premise of the book. Right? We'll get there. Okay. You wrote, I think bragging is the inverse of how satisfied you are with life. It's one of the most reliable psychological formulas around. So I saw, there's this person on the internet who, it is Twitter bio.

It shows us that worth down to the penny. Have you seen this? No, but that's a great. I know those people exist though, right? But wait, so, so his pin tweet is what no sleep, no family vacations, and no exercise does to a man. And it shows his portfolio down to the money. That's his pin tweet.

And credit to him, it's over $10 million. It's a lot more money than I have. It's a lot of money. I would, but somebody who does that, somebody who does that, I would put an 85% chance that that they Photoshop that. If you're willing to do that, if you're willing to look that ridiculous, of course, you're willing to just make the entire number up to begin with. I mean, it's crazy behavior. But, but you, I don't know if you started the book this way, but one of your big things, which I do genuinely ascribe to is you have no idea, you only,

you only have like some information on somebody's life. Like, how did you phrase it? Yeah. I mean, so the idea is like all behavior makes sense. with enough information, that you can see how somebody is responding, how they're bragging, how they're scared, how they want to show off, like all those different values. And there's always a story behind it, to where at the surface level, you can criticize and make fun of them. And as we do, and it's fun to do. But there's always, there's always a story behind that. No, it's sad. It is kind of sad. And the person who posts their net worth online without even knowing them, and it's always like a different story. But there's probably some story there of

like lack of self-confidence, has been snubbed in the past, and has this idea of like, I'll show them. They snubbed me in the past, but look at me now. Look what I accomplished. And whether it's to show other people or just to prove to yourself, look what I did. So I wrote in the book, I have a close family member who grew up homeless and in and out of the foster system, like as poor of a child as you can imagine. And then became a very successful businessman when he became older. And when his daughter applied for college, he told her, he said, please pick the most expensive school that you get into. And the reason, it was like in his mind, not even for other people, but for him,

the idea that he could send his daughter to an expensive school was the ultimate trophy of what he had overcome. And it was in his mind, it was like the more expensive, the better. And again, it wasn't even to show other people. It was like this internal trophy. And I think we all have some of those. So maybe that guy who's posting his $10 million net worth, whatever it is, is like, that's his internal trophy from a period of his life 20 years ago or whatever.

when he just felt absolutely terrible about himself. It doesn't absolve your crazy behavior or obnoxious behavior. But I think, like, no matter what the behavior is, if you dig deep into it, you're like, okay, it sort of makes sense why you would do that. And maybe if I was in the same situation, I would do it too. So the idealist all the time at kids sporting events. You have the one parent who brags about all of their kids, their accomplishments.

Oh, my kid scored five goals today, and they scored 20 points in basketball, or whatever it is. And the other parents are rolling their eyes because no one wants to hear about your children's accomplishments. And I told my wife this last week, I said, the reason they're doing this is because some deficiency in their life. They're trying to compensate. And once you see it through that lens, it changes the way you think about it. Obviously, some people are just living vicariously and that. But yeah, it totally changes the equation. I remember the opposite of this. I have so many stories from when I was a valet back in college. And one of them was a guy, his name was Jimmy Kwok.

And he was one of the founders of Volcom. Remember Volcom, the clothing brand? It was like, like a surf clothing brand, really popular in the 2000s, made an absolute fortune for himself. And he drove an old pickup truck and was the nicest, humblest, most helpful, most complimentary person you will ever meet in your life. And he's one of the richest guys in town. And I mean, it's like, that's the opposite. I think if you are totally fulfilled at home and at work and you feel great about yourself and you're happy with your accomplishments, you're happy with your kids, you have no desire whatsoever to be like, I'm going to show up and talk about how good my kid is. I'm going to post my net worth online. It wouldn't,

even crossed your mind because you're already getting all the attention and admiration and respect for more durable things already. I have a valet one for you because this is, and I've been meaning to bring this up to Michael, but my son plays football and I drop them off and pick him up for practice twice a week. And one of the other kids in the team, his dad drives a bright orange Lamborghini. Okay, so we pick them up in, I mean, we're talking football. It's tackle. So it's football pads, helmet. And his dad picks him up in a Lamborghini. And you know, of course, the kids all, run and look at this thing and oh my gosh it's amazing and when he pulls out he drives really fast and it makes this really loud noise and obviously you don't buy a Lamborghini unless you want to be

seen right but i also think my views of that so if you would ask me this 10 or 15 years ago i would have said okay this guy is obviously he's showing off i don't know what he does or where he gets his money from he's he's all right you know he's a middle age guy he's got a young kid and he drives a Lamborghini uh doesn't seem very you know like helpful when you have kids for that kind of car but But I also think, like, no one knows what his financial situation is or what got him to that point where he has to show it off. And so I think I'm actually a little more forgiving of that fancy of a purchase these days than I would have been in the past.

I would never do that personally. But I almost like, I don't know. I don't know what his situation is. If he sold a business, if he has an inheritance that he got, or what it is that caused him to spend this much money in a car and obviously want to show it off. But I don't, I'm a little hesitant to judge as much on that as I would have been in the past. Yeah, there's always a story behind it. And the story's not always bad. Like, I remember this guy, back in my, back in my valet days that I met, he had, this was like mid-2000s and he had a Ferrari Enzo, which is like the super duper tippity top Ferrari. I think today they cost millions and millions of dollars. And he never drove it on the road. He was like, it never left his garage because he was like, he was just like, I just love the engineering. I love the art. I love looking at it. I love kind of like polishing it up. And I was like, that's actually a great reason to own a Ferrari. He was like, it's the opposite of getting people's attention.

To him, it was just a beautiful piece of art that he'd love to sit there and like fondle and look at it. And like that's great. Fondle it, rub it, whatever you're doing with it. And so that was, I think that's like, that's a great reason. So like the message here is not don't buy fancy things. Don't buy nice cars. Don't buy clothes. But you have to like them for the right reason.

And if your reason is, I will get other people's attention, they will turn their heads and say, look at him. He's so great. He's so cool. I should admire that person. You're fooling yourself. it's not going to happen. And, and, but, but there's, there's also a point of, like, the reason you're doing that is because there's some wound, there's some hole that you're trying to fill in there that's

being filled. So I, too, most of the time I see that, I, there's a point of my life when I would admire that. And then I kind of went from looking down upon it and having, like, pity for that person, I'm just like, ah, you, you idiot. But, but now it's like, it's more often a sense, a sense of empathy of just like, oh, that, that person's going through something. They, they have, they have a, they have a, they have a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, trying to fill right now. All right. So there's, there's so much to unpack with the car specifically.

And I think it comes down to what type of person you are. But I want to put a pin in this real quick. I was a Valley Parker for years. I don't have any stories. Now, is that true? For, dude, I, I value parked for years. Now, I was a Valley Parker on the south shore of Long Island at like restaurants and, uh, I don't know. I have not a single, and a golf court, not a single story, not one. Unless, except for me getting fired. I have no stories. I did it for four years and I feel like I could write a book. I have a friend who's done it for 20 years. He's never, he's still there. And he was like, I could do an entire HBO series on what I've learned as a valet. And maybe it was the time, it was, it was in Los Angeles in the mid, like during

the housing bubble when in, in Orange County, which was like the epicenter. It was the HQ of every subprime lender during this era. So there was literally trillions of dollars of fake money just blowing through Orange County during this era. I think that had a lot to do with it. Well, Ben, why did you think of me? What are you talking about? You said, was that the story that you had that you thought of me or you saved for the show? No, I said I was going to tell you and I said I wanted to save it to talk about this. So there's a, so two days ago I saw somebody driving a dropping their child off at at the elementary school. And like most people, my thought was what a douche. And I don't know this person. And he tried to go around to park a bus I was

letting kids off and the guy with the guy taking the kids off. I was like, are you insane? What do you doing? And me and Rob were, like, laugh. Like, could you believe this guy? Like, I was, like, benefited the death story. I don't know this part. And I don't know this person. So maybe he's a wonderful guy. I really don't know. But here's a thing about people with cars and symbols and judging. There's like the other extreme of rich people that you know are rich driving a piece of shit car. To me, that's like maybe even worse. We can get into that. But don't you think it comes down to what type of person this is? Now, I'm not talking about strangers because a stranger most often is going to look at somebody driving an

and say what a douche. Okay. However, if you're my friend and you're just an awesome human being and you have the right values and you're a good person and you're generous and your kind and you work your ass off and you bought yourself, I want to give you the biggest hug in the world. I think there are incredible people that don't have these insecurities, maybe a little bit, that just like nice cars. And I think about this all the time.

I mean, and then another part is like, do you want your? kids knowing, do you want your kids driving around with you in a Range Rover? What if you love a Ranger Rover? I love a Range Rover. But I don't want simultaneously, I don't want strangers thinking, oh, look at this fucking ass. All this bald loser driving. What does he competition for? The people who, the people who buy these, they're never in their head as much as we are, though. They don't even think about it, right? Those are the people that, like, I think they're just doing whatever their animal instinct tells him to do. Yes. And, and wants to do it like that. Yeah, I think that's usually the case. But I guess I'm just saying, like, it doesn't

just because you have a nice car does not mean that you're a giant dick. No, I think the way that you did it where you drive a powder blue Lamborghini is a way to do it. Like, it's not that flashy the way that you do it. Well, I keep that to the garage board. Okay, I have, so I have a, I want to run this by and see what you think because I talking to Josh earlier today about how there's a million books about how to buy stocks and there's like no good, there's no classic books about how to use sell stocks, right? There's some, some areas that are maybe just too hard or people don't. And I think the same is true of first personal finance books. there's a ton of great personal finance books about how to save and how to be frugal

and how to invest. And I think personal finance people as a whole, if I'm generalizing, aren't very good at giving you spending advice. Like they don't know how to have, they don't know to get, once you save and pay off credit card debt and stuff, they're really good at that. But then when it comes to actually prioritizing what you want to spend on, they don't have that other gear to go into. And I feel like that there's a huge hole in the personal finance arena in this space

where we keep running into people constantly who cannot flip the psychological switch and make themselves spend, even though they know they want to, they can't figure out how to do it because for their whole life, it's been save, save, and now how do I spend? And I think this is a big hole in the personal finance genre. Yeah, I think it's true. I think that was, for me, that was a lot of the origin of this book, whereas if you asked me five years ago, what is my investing philosophy? You, I, and you guys, we could talk for hours. hours about, oh, here's how I think about risk. Here's how I think about volatility. Here's how I think about long term. Like, we could talk forever. And there's 10,000 books written about

that. But then I realized, like, this is like four or five years ago. I kind of asked myself, I was like, what is my spending philosophy for my wife and I? And I was like, I have no idea. I spent so much time thinking about how I invest and how to grow wealth and had not spent one second thinking about the psychology of spending it. Why do I spend this way? Why do I save this way? Who am I trying to impress? Who's attention am I trying to get? What actually makes me happy, what actually makes me content, like the psychology of envy, the psychology of greed and jealousy and whatnot, there was like a total blind spot. I think part of that is because people intuitively think nothing needs to be said about this topic, that you just go out

and spend. And if you can spend more, that's better than spending less. And that's it. That's all you need to say. But the three of us know that investing, you can just say, oh, just dollar cost average and hold for the long term. And that's not wrong. But you're like, yeah, but it's 800 million percent more complicated than that and messier than that. And I think it's true for spending too. So like the idea like, yeah, you can spend a lot of money and have a great life, but it's a lot more complicated than that. You need to understand why you want to spend that way, what your motivations are, like where you want to sit on the social aspiration hierarchy, what is going to make you content, what's going to make you envious of others,

what will make other people envious of you? There's so many things that come down from that. And so putting the same lens that we've put on investing of, let's try to understand the psychology of why people make these decisions. I think you could do that for spending as well. You write about future regret and why you should minimize it. I want to push back a little bit because I generally, generally agree with some of that philosophy. But I don't know that what really matters is all that matters. And thinking about things that you might regret in the future, why is 75-year-old Michael more important than 40-year-old Michael? Like, what if I am doing things that I might look back on 35 years or now, 40 years

from now and regret more important than some of the things that I enjoy today? Now, again, there's like, all right, well, I'm just going to do reckless things because who cares about the future? Like, you know, you got to strike the right balance. But I think it's complicated. I don't know that I care about my future regrets as much as I care about enjoying today. You know, Michael, there's always the phrase, like, live in the present and most people can't do it. I am the most present person in the world. A lot of people live in the past or the future.

You are a very present person. Like you, you're in a very narrow band, I feel like. No, but I feel like in that situation, 75 year old Michael wouldn't regret it. He would look back and be like, I'm glad I blew a lot of money on that powder blue Lamborghini because I got a lot of joy out of it. And so you wouldn't actually regret it. But there might be things that you wouldn't regret. And so I brought this up several times, this wonderful book called 30 Lessons for Living,

where this doctor interviewed a bunch of like 90 to 100. year old Americans and just said, like, tell me what advice you have on life. You're 97 years old. You've been through everything. What do you think? And not a single one of, he interviewed a thousand people. Not one of them looked back and said, I wish I made more money. But almost every single one of them looked back and said, I wish I spent more time with my kids, I wish I was nicer to my friends. I wish I was more forgiving of myself. That's like nearly universal. And so I think it is important when you when we are not old yet the three of us are getting there very quickly but not old yet to be like look there's like statistically there are things that we are very

likely to look back and have a sense of regret and it's spending time with our family and being nicer to people and being more forgiving of who we actually are and there's things that we are almost certainly not going to regret which is how hard we worked and how much money we saved just like the base rate of what happens to people that's usually the case and so i think i think Michael, it's still, the idea still holds of, like, having a good sense of your future regret, but I think because you are more present-minded than most, you are probably less susceptible to having regrets than others. I'm sure you'll have some, but less than others. And I think I look at, like, investing itself as this regret minimization thing. Like,

it's all, the whole thing is just tradeoffs all the way down, right? And I think that's the thing that makes more sense as you get older, is you figure out. And having kids has completely changed my mind, like the spending philosophy you said, I never had them before either. For me, it was always save, save, save, spreadsheet, spreadsheet. And then you have kids, and it totally changes your mindset. We had a friend who one time, our kids were all four years old. And she was like, listen, how many more summers do we have with these kids before they're gone to college? And we started doing the math, like, oh my gosh. Like, when you put it that way, it doesn't, and that whole thing has completely changed. I feel like Michael and I have more conversations

about stuff we're spending money on than ever before. More so than like a investing because it's, we see that these kids are in the sweet spot and we know what's coming eventually. And you talk to parents with kids that are older and you can feel it. When they turn into teenagers and they're hanging out all the time or leaving you or then they go to college, you don't seem as much anymore. And all those things as a parent totally has flipped a switch for me for how, like what I prioritize. And I think that's the most important thing. Because you talk about, I think in the first chapter of the book, you say, like you can't tell someone how to spend their money. It's everyone has their different priorities. But the point is you have to figure out what

those priorities are. That's the thing that Matt, that's how you figure out, like, when to spend money is, okay, all this other stuff I don't really care about. Like, for me, it's, I'm an A to B guy with cars. I could never be the Lambo person. I just, I want a decent car that's going to be high quality and get me from place to place. But I want to spend on other things. And I think that's the whole point is putting all the other stuff aside and then really spending on the things that matter to you. That's, that's the hard part for people to get around, throughout their head around. Right. And I think, and that'll continue to change in the future. Like, I imagine if the three of us are doing this podcast when we're all 87 years old. If we are still talking about long-term

compounding, like, shame on us at that age. Like, hopefully at that age, where, like, how can I live and, like, help my kids and my grandkids and help my, you know, my local town and whatnot? Hopefully that's what we're talking about. But it made perfect sense that 10 years ago, the three of us were just talking about long-term compounding. That's the phase of life we were in. That's what we should have been doing. And so that's also another point of, like, there's no formula I had to do this. Not only are individuals different, I'm different than you are, but we're all going to be different over the course of different phases of our life. And so when you try to just box everything into here's how to do it, here's the formula,

it screws it all up because I'm the same way. My son, my oldest just turned 10. And the idea that like we are well past halfway as parents with him. Like if he leaves at 18, we're more than halfway there. It's crazy. And there are a lot of things that can stem from that. But spending money is like, is part of that too. I'm like, I can't, like, this is what every parent will say.

I can't believe how fast it's gone. I feel like he was born yesterday. And so the trips that I need to take with him, like apps, like we need to prioritize that immediately because snap your fingers, he's going to be going up to college. And that's it. But that's not a view that I could have really understood eight years ago or 10 years ago. And there's going to be views 10 years from now that I and you and all of us can't understand today. And so that's the idea of like you can't be too rigid in these beliefs. It's going to change throughout your life. Speaking of like the priorities shifting, one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot that the thing that all personal finance people say

and there's a huge degree of truth to this is just that spend on experiences and material possessions won't make you happy because you get that initial dopamine hit from buying material possessions and I feel like I've totally changed my mind on that I think there are certain material possessions that can actually that can that can make you happy

I... You're talking about a boat? Well, here's a small one. I love buying clothes and if I buy a nice sweater and I get the dopamine hit from buying it and waiting for it to come, but then every time I wear it, it makes me feel good. I think that kind of material possession, it seems like it's so, it's so stupid in a way. But even that kind of thing I feel like can, if you have the right attitude, and you're not just blowing your money

constantly, but it's something that you actually enjoy. I think that's like, it's okay. You don't have to like be policed about spending on that stuff, as long as it's something that you actually get some enjoyment out of. Right. And I think another, I totally agree with that. And another version of that is the idea of spend your money on experiences can be taken. in way too far as well. So my wife and I, this is just in the last six weeks or so, we finally admitted to ourselves that like, hey, of the last four vacations we've taken, the best part of the trip was coming home. The most relaxing and enjoyable part of the trip was finally getting home back to like where we knew where, like, all of ours,

whether they're being cramped at a hotel room and stuff. And so we're like, can we just admit to ourselves that at least at this phase of our life with two little kids who suck at traveling? Maybe traveling is not the right thing for us to do right now. But it's hard to get there because there is so much like everyone tells you, travel, travel, travel, experience, experience, experiences. And like, it's not necessarily the travel. It's just the time with your family that matters. And so I think there's a lot of people, too, that they say, like, spend money on experiences,

but what they actually want is for people to, like, the reason that they want to go to Hawaii is so they can post a picture of it on social media. And other people will be like, oh, look at that trip to Hawaii. They're still doing it for the attention of other people. And I think they don't want material things because they know that by and large, that can be in some situations, at least. a signaling endeavor. You just want people to look at your sweater.

That's probably not the case with you, but for other people, that's why they want nice things. I might have a good compliment on the sweater. That's okay. Beautiful sweater you're wearing, Ben. But to your point, I think the big thing is like you go on vacation

to be with people that you want to be around, right? And you can do that at home. You can do that in other places, yeah. Yes, we don't have to fly around the world and my kids are jet lagged and they're screaming and we're stuffed into a tiny hotel room. You don't need to do that. Just do it at home.

And so, and I really, My little pet peeve on this is, I think the one locale that I think has been entrapped by this is Bali. And I'll tell you my theory on Bali. If you've ever been to Bali, no disrespect to the wonderful people who live in Indonesia, it's a total shithole. It is awful. There's trash floating in the water. It's a terrible, relative to Hawaii or L.A. even, there's nothing great about it. It's very subjective, but that's my opinion about it.

but I think people are very attracted to go there because they love telling their friends and posting on social media, look, I went to Bali. I went to this super exotic location. So even when you're doing it for experiences, you're doing it just for the attention and respect and admiration of other people. And so I think the idea of just spend money on experiences, it's not for yourself. It's still a signaling endeavor to do it. And if you are buying the sweater because you like it, not because you think I will like it,

then that's great. It's just like the guy who has the Lamborghini and he, the Ferrari, and he never drives it. He just, he likes it for himself. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks about it. That's the right way to do it. And if you're going to Bali, because you actually enjoy it, wonderful, awesome. But if you're doing it because you think it's going to make a great post that you're going to get attention for, that's the trap people get trapped into. Why do you think, why do you guys think the fire movement died?

Remember how it was such a big thing on the internet? You think that it died? I mean, I don't know if the movement died, but in terms of like it being a thing that reporter is covered. You know what else kind of went away, and I'm happy that you don't hear about this that much anymore, is lifestyle creep being portrayed as a negative. I'm all about lifestyle creep. I think that the purpose of life is growth. And even the word creep is like a bad word. I think it's a wonderful thing that you get more, you grow, you spend, you enjoy. But why do you guys think the five movement died? Don't you think the 2020's boom time is completely different than

the 2010s? Like, I feel like the whole idea of money and not necessarily even like selling out, but just going out and getting your thing and do it. Like, I feel like that has totally changed in terms of the whole money aspect. The 2020s is just the mentality is totally shifted. Yeah, I think the fire movement was a product of the financial crisis and the aftermath of it when unemployment was high and people didn't have very much money to, in like in a pretty reasonable way, be like, well, how can I build a good life with as little money as possible? Because I have so little to begin with. And the unemployment rate's 10%. So I might as well try to figure it out. And that was so appealing to people. I think it was like the pendulum swinging in the other direction

from the housing bubble years where it was like, if you want to build a good life, you just have to be rich. You have to flip houses and you have to be a multi-millionaire and that's what you need to do. The pendulum just went the other direction. But a lot of that too were the people who actually achieved fire. Achieved fire. It's such a dumb phrase. I know. Thank you. But I think so many of them after six months were bored. And they realized that like the idea of like, oh, I'm going to retire at 28 and then just go like do watercolors or whatever for the rest of the day like that's that's that's that's not a good life at all all all i have a i have a competing hypothesis i do genuinely believe that some people did retire for the right reasons because they genuinely enjoyed everything else

that life had to offer and they did it like in the happy way i'm sure that a good portion of these people were miserable with their job and they said i just can't take the shit anymore but i'd be curious to know. I don't know if there are like these numbers, there's no like repository for people that are retired early at, you know, 30 years old. But I do wonder if the movement is still as alive as it ever has been, except journalists don't talk about it anymore because the DGents are so much more exciting to cover. Would that be interesting? I don't know. I think, I think the biggest thing is a lot of those people who did it were bored. And like, I don't know a single person. I don't, I don't know many people who actually, who actually did it to begin with. But of the few that I do,

every one of them is back to work. And you just hinted at this. Their aspiration to achieve fire was that they hated their job. They hated it. And they're like, I can't wait to get out of here. But that wasn't because they didn't want to work. They just hated that job. For the vast majority of people, what is going to give them purpose and make them feel good about themselves is waking up every morning and going to work and being productive and contributing to society. That's what you want to do. And you take that away for more than about six months. Most people will lose their minds. So I think that was, that was, that was the biggest portion of it. Do you have a definition of rich?

Like, what is, what does being rich mean to you? I think I, I made, I made this distinction up myself so you can take issue with this. But I think, I think rich in my definition is just you can, you can afford whatever lifestyle you want. Whatever lifestyle you aspire to, you can make your, you can make your housing payment. You can make your car payment. You can go out to dinner, et cetera, et cetera. Wealth, I think is very different. Wealth is when you have a level of innovation.

No, I thought that's, there's definitely that, but wealth is independence. Wealth is, if shit hit the fan and I lost my job and the market fell 50%, and I changed my taste, or somebody sued me, whatever it might be, I have a level of independence and backstop and cushion here to make it okay. And so I think there are a lot of people who live a very rich lifestyle and drive fancy cars and live in great houses and travel a lot. They're not wealthy. At the slightest tinge of something going wrong, everything falls apart. Yeah. And they have no, and also there's like a level of like psychological.

dependence there, where they are completely beholden to the trends that other people set, the expectations of other people, the, you know, just full-blown keeping up with the Jones's idea. And so I think there are a lot of people that are financially independent, but culturally, morally, philosophically, totally dependent on other people. Yeah. Our friend Gunjan interviewed one of the, one of the CEOs and one of those private jet companies. And he said, if you have 25 times, your annual spend, you're rich. I think that's a fair definition. I guess you've got to place the line in the sand somewhere.

But I think about rich similar to you do. Like I've, I think that I've been rich for a couple of years now. And I don't meet it in the financial sense because I can do whatever I want. I can live life on my own terms. I can buy within reason what I want and I do. But I'm certainly not objectively wealthy. I mean, if you look at my banking account and like the finance dude would say like, dude, you're poor. What are you talking about? But I don't think about rich in terms of

dollars, but I do think about wealth in terms of dollars. Like to me, wealth is objectively like, and I don't know where the number is, it's different for everyone. But to me, wealth is like, wealth is like something that may be, and I know there's stories in your book, but wealth is like, almost it's hard to hide because it's so, it's so obvious that you're wealthy. I heard this one a few weeks ago. I'm stealing up with someone, but they said like the rich life thing is you don't, I can tell that I have a rich life if I don't have to do with assholes when I don't want to. Yeah. So at work, I don't have to.

I don't do with assholes in my personal life. I don't have to have friends who. And you see a lot of really wealthy people who still have to answer to people that they probably don't want to. And they may be obscenely wealthy. There's billionaires out there who still are beholden to shareholders and beholden to politicians or whoever. And they're wealthy, but they don't lead a rich life because they have to do a lot of things they don't want to do. And I think that's the distinction. That's great.

Yeah, you can be rich but not wealthy. And you can be wealthy, but not rich. Yeah. You can easily imagine someone who's worth $10 billion and lives the most, a, uh, the most obscene material life, but they're on their fifth divorce. Their kids don't talk to them. They're in poor health. Their community hates them. They don't, they don't sleep well at night. They have a dirty conscience. Like, go on down the list. Is that person, that person is rich, but they're the opposite of wealthy. And the opposite of that exists too. People who make 50 grand a year,

married to their soulmate, kids admire them, community adores them, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, it's just a, it's a much more complicated. But I think the reason that we attach wealth to it as like the ultimate, the ultimate metric of your success is because it's so quantifiable. And so, like, if I said, which of the three of us is the best dad or the best husband? There's no way to compare that. There's no dad score. There's no husband score. But if we compared our net worths to ourselves or to other people, it's apples to apples down to the penny.

So just because it's so quantifiable, it becomes the ultimate metric of how we judge ourselves and other people, even if we know there are other things that are so much more important. How you think about your own money is obviously it's the ultimate thing of, it's all relative. It just matters of who you surround yourself with. And I noticed as Valley Parker, and this was like, this was common that people in the worst cars, the, let's just say less money. I don't want to say worse. Oh, they're worse. Whatever. They're less money.

I don't know why I'm hiding. Less money. Worse. They were more generous than people driving Mercedes almost, almost always. So, Morgan, there's your story. You had one story about that. I had one story. So Morgan, I know you've done 70,000 podcasts.

We could wrap with this unless spend us anything else. I'd be curious to get your take on this. I love. tipping. I love that I am able to be a generous tipper and to make an impact on somebody's day. It gives me an incredible amount of joy because I was somebody that worked on tips for years and years and years and I know that it makes that it's meaningful. Robin and I were with the boys in Florida a year ago and somebody was sitting down and he seemed to, the service people recognized him and he had obviously been there before. And I.

saw him, you know, genuinely have a conversation with him. And then at the end, and this is right when they got there. I thought it was so cool. He took out a hundred, a couple hundred, whatever it was. And I said to Robin, like, that's what I want to do. Like, that's so awesome that he could do that for these people. And she was like, really? And she had a completely different take that I, I think I didn't see her point until she said it was that, well, he just got here. And he's tipping so that he gets a certain level of service. And I said, oh, yeah, that's true. but is that bad? Yeah.

No, I don't think it's bad. I think so we talk about the difference between like micro philanthropy and macro philanthropy. Macro is like you donate to the Red Cross. Awesome. Good organization. Makes a difference, whatnot. But it's pretty, it's faceless. You just write the check and the check is gone.

They probably already have a billion dollars in cash in the bank or whatever. Versus micro philanthropy, you can really see and feel hopefully the difference that you're making. But I have another story of this that is similar, but they did not lead to a good thing. good outcome. This is probably seven or eight years ago. I was walking through Manhattan. It was nine o'clock at night. And there was a grocery store. And there was a mom with her probably four-year-old son with a sign that says need money for food. And the son looked just like my son. They're like the same age at the time. And so I'm sure you can relate. Ultimately, I'm like, I can't, this kid who looks like my son doesn't have dinner tonight. And I'm sure they're homeless.

And so it was, so I, in a moment of like, oh, I'm going to do the right thing here. I came to them and said, let's go, they're in front of a grocery store. I said, let's go to the grocery store and grab a cart and you just fill it up. And it's great. And they filled up the cart and I paid. And she walked out and not a thank you, not a look in the eye, not nothing. And I want to make it as clear as I can. I did not do this for myself.

I did it for them. So the fact that I got no thank you or anything out of this. But I think the reason it hurt is because I was like, did I even make a difference? I got no feedback that this did anything for them. And so I think what's good about microphilanthropy is that most of the time you get feedback. And so the waiter or the waitress, whoever might be is like, oh, thank you.

You just made my day. You just changed now my son can eat dinner tonight. But when you don't get it, then it's almost as faceless as donating to the Red Cross. Where you're like, I think this is probably good, but I didn't really see anything come of this. Why? All right. We can't end on that.

Ben, you have anything else? No, I think this is the kind of thing you want to pass on to, like, your children. Like, the ability, like, this is the other stuff they don't teach you, like, how to tip. And another way, I talk about this recently in a blog post. My grandfather used to, he would find the waiter or waitress at a restaurant. We'd go to there, visit them in Florida, and there was a steakhouse we used to all go to, and it would be all my aunts and uncles and cousins and my parents. And my dad and the uncles would always try to pay for dinner. And my grandpa would never let them pay. He'd go find the waiter or

waitress before we sat down to even eat and give them his credit card and say, this is going to pay. And the times that my uncle and my dad tried to, like, put their credit card down to, I thought my grandpa was going to fistfight them. Like he vehemently was again, he's like, I am the one who's, I'm the patriarch or whatever, I am paying. And I think every once in a while going out with your friends and slipping the credit card to the waiter or waitress and paying for everyone's meal and not making a big deal out of it before like that.

Yeah. That little kind of things like that, I think. That's the kind of thing that is a like is a really good feeling that you don't have to like look for a pat in the back for. But you know, but I heard a story of somebody did that locally and people almost fought him because he's a douche. And he did it in a way that was. wasn't genuine, that I was just trying to show off. But that's the point of all of this.

See, yeah, well, it's all about intention. That's kind of what Morgan was saying. Like, you can do buy and pay these things the wrong way for the wrong reasons, or I think you can do them for the right reasons and have the good intentions. And that's the thing that matters. But I'll give you an example of how complicated this can get. And while giving money away or helping other people is never as simple as it seems. So I started doing this when I would go out with my family, with my parents and my siblings, I'd be like, I'm always going to offer to pay. Always. I have a great family. We all have a great relationship. I'm going to try to pay. And I could tell that sometimes my dad when the bill came and I was, I would fight him to do it would kind of get annoyed. And he like he wasn't really happy about it. And I think I finally realized one day that I think I was so much of his like every other parent, every other father, he worked his ass off to take care of his family, to take care of his kids. And it was almost like I was robbing him of the joy of getting to take care of his kids. And I was doing it with really good intentions. I'm like, I think isn't this great? Like I'm offering to pay. But he was like, no, like I worked my ass off for 30 years so that I can help.

help my kids. And you're not letting me do that. And so I finally realized like, okay, I should, I should just let him do it from now on. Like, I think that's just an example of it's never easy. That's a beautiful story. It's never, it's never simple to do this. I thought I was really doing the right thing, but it was actually making him angry when I did it. All right. So last thing, I promise. Um, so I'm getting, I have my, my lease is up in, in April. And part of me, I've had horrific car stories over the years. And part of me just wants to get whatever works, a Honda and Nissan. I don't really care. I don't even drive it that much. I just want a car that I don't have taken to the shop.

Another part of me, I do like nice cars. I really do. I get personal satisfaction. I've always liked nice cars. And I get a level of personal pride and satisfaction that I could afford what car I want to buy. And it makes me feel really good about myself. The counterpoint is like, forget about what people say, but like my kids, right?

Do I want my kids growing up driving around with their dad with like a range rover or whatever it is? And then the counter, counterpoint is, but I'm a good, but I'm a good person and I'm a good dad and I'm going to teach my kid the right values. And I don't think that I'm going to let my kid become those assholes that grew up driving nice cars and are just disrespect, you know, just bratty kids. Like, so I guess I'm giving myself permission to buy a nice car. I don't know if I'm going to, but that's sort of where I am. I think the type of person you are matters more than the money and how you spend it. Yeah. I think there, I think there is some truth, though, that if you get a Ranger over and your wants, grows up and wants to be a firefighter and probably can't afford a range rover because of that, it's, it's very likely that in his mind, a range rover is the par for the course average median family car. I got to that party book and I closed it. Right. Right. No, I think, I think there's true to it. That's that like, are you right? Are you setting your kid up for disappointment? For disappointment? Because whatever lifestyle you're living, that becomes their

baseline. I remember hearing this interview with Mike, with Zach Dell, who's Michael Dell's son. The interview, this was like 10 or 15 years ago. I think he was a teenager at the time. And Michael Dell was one of the richest man in the world. And in the interview, they're like, they ask him, like, what does it like to grow up with private jets and mansions and all of this? And his response, he was a teenager. I thought it was very astute.

He was like, it's all I've ever known. I don't, so like it means nothing to me. The fact that I've never flown commercial, I only fry private, it's all. I don't know any different in my life. And so it's true, like, even at the highest tippity top levels, that just becomes the baseline of normal. And I think it's like, you have to think as a parent. very clearly. Like, what lifestyle do I want to live, particularly if you have some disposable

income? Because your children are going to assume that is completely normal. And do you break them if that's the, if that's the floor? Because every, I think every child wants to surpass their parents. It's like a very normal thing. That's like generational growth. And if you set the floor for your kids way up here, even if something so silly as a car, like you're like, is there a sense of you are doing them a disservice because of that? Well, that's something that I could start to look back on with regret if I do decide to go down that road. That's what I'm 80 if my kids didn't have the life that I hope that they live. That could definitely be a future source of regret.

Or I think what can actually happen is like your son says, I really want to be a teacher or a fireman, but I can't afford the Ranger over. So I need to go work at Goldman Sachs, even if I hate it. And I'm giving up my dream of being a teacher or whatever it would be. Sorry, Michael, you got to buy a Toyota. The new Toyotas are great.

Those are nice cars. They're beautiful. But actually, my broker. It's like a Lexus about the brand. My carbroker said, dude, the Toyotas are so expensive. Just buy whatever. There's no difference anymore in terms of price. I don't know if that's true or not, but.

I don't know. They're beautiful. I think I think a high-end Toyota is an amazing car. There's no ego in it. It's just a Toyota, but they're really, really nice. I think it's a perfect balance. If you were bald, you wouldn't say that. All right, Morgan, congrats.

You've done it again. The artist, anybody is an awesome book. And I encourage everybody who's listening and watching to go out and buy a copy. Thank you, Morgan. Great job. Thanks, guys.