Animal Spirits Podcast - Talk Your Book: Investing in the Gig Economy

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

On today's Talk Your Book we speak with David Dziekanski, portfolio manager for the SoFi Gig Economy ETF. Find complete shownotes on our blogs... Ben Carlson’s A Wealth of Common Sense Michael Batnick’s The Irrelevant Investor Like us on Facebook And feel free to shoot us an email at [e-mail] with any feedback, questions, recommendations, or ideas for future topics of conversation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today's Animal Spirits Talk Your Book is brought to you by the SoFi Gig Economy ETF. Go to Giggy. That's GIGE.com to learn more. Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about markets, life, and investing. Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing, and watching. Michael Battenick and Ben Carlson work for Ritt Holt's wealth management. All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben or any podcast guests are solely their own opinions. and do not reflect the opinion of Ritt Holt's wealth management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for investment decisions. Clients of Ritthold's wealth management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.

Welcome, Annal Spirits with Michael and Ben. Are we part of the gig economy, Michael? Technically. We're podcasters. Are we solopreneurs? I heard that on the podcast today. That was the first, I'd never heard that before. I think I have bloggers.

We have a YouTube channel that we're part of. I'd say we're part of the gig economy. I actually started writing my blog as a side hustle that was never meant to hustle anything. It was just on the side from a previous job. And that's how I got a job working with you. I met you over the internet and Josh and Barry. And it's a bizarre thing, but we're somehow part of that. And the growth in this space is massive and big enough that there's now a whole ETF on it,

which I don't know if you would have said three years ago there's going to be an ETF on this stuff. What are the companies? it wouldn't have been many. That's a great question. Rewind three years. What are the public gig? Was Spotify public three years ago? Probably pretty close.

So we spoke with a portfolio manager today from SoFi who helps run the gig economy ETF. It's called Giggy, which is a pretty good, rolls off the time, pretty good for the ticker. And it's like 60 names of this gig economy. And it's not something I ever really put together before that, oh, my gosh, you could look at the gig economy in terms of these different categories and ride. and deliver and platforms and services and all this stuff. And a lot of them are the companies that you and I spend a lot of time thinking you

on talking about here. Yeah, it's so pervasive in our life that I never stopped to think about it. So I said, like, I could probably write down a definition of gig economy. But if I had to, like, right off the top of my dome, I probably couldn't give a great answer. These types of companies, so it's Airbnb and Square and Upwork and Shopify and all these different companies, I guess this is one of the reasons that I'm so bullish on the whole idea. It's almost like a gross term to say, but like idea of like a brand for individuals and how important that is these days and how a person can go out and create something on their own so

much easier than they could in the past. I told it to you a couple weeks ago, has there ever been a better time to be an entrepreneur than right now in terms of using the cloud for your service and having a megaphone on social media to promote whatever you're doing to thousands or millions of people in some cases, depending on how big your audience is. Hakey McCormick's been writing about this, that like there will be a founder, CEO, with three employees who becomes a trillionaire. If you had the over under at two minutes into the podcast before Michael mentioned Packing McCormick, you just,

but it's very true. He's the epitome of this of someone who's doing something on his own. People are starting there. I mean, people are making a business out of writing, which in the past you would have had to go, I don't know, slum it for five years on the desk at some newspaper.

Yeah, hope to ever get your name and the byline of something, your picture in the paper or whatever. And now you can just do it on your own and find your own audience. And if you have a, it's not even just a broad writer with writing about something big like politics, but if you have a niche of some specific area, and you just It's definitely never been a better time to be a creator. So that Kevin Kelly posted a lot of people point to, it's like your 1,000 true fans or whatever. It makes so much sense that if you just

have enough people like that in your niche of the world that can follow you and potentially pay you, you can set this stuff up so much easier they ever could in the past. So I thought this was a really interesting topic. So we spoke to David Jekanski, who's a portfolio manager. He manages the giggy ETF. Hope you enjoy our conversation. We are joined today by David Degensky, portfolio manager at Toros Asset Management. David, thank you for coming on today. Thanks for having me. So I was thinking before we started this, the gig economy, it's one of those things that has become part of the lexicon, and we hear that very often. And I can probably give like a halfway decent response on what the gig economy is, but actually maybe I can't.

So why do you just describe for us? What is the gig economy? It's funny. It's one of those things that once you start trying to define it, you start seeing how big it is and the expansion of how much it covers. So I would say most simply, my answer would be that gig economy is the change in how work is conducted. It is the ecosystem that allows you to work disconnected from seemingly anywhere.

So the product we're talking about today is the SOFI gig economy ETF, the ticker G-I-G-E. And it has a lot of names that people would recognize. Airbnb and Square and Twitter and Upwork, I've personally used Upwork for a number of projects earlier. And I'm blown away by the quality of work that you can find there. So what was the idea behind the creation of this product? Just that this is going to be a fast-growing area that there's companies out that I can fill this space. What was the general idea here? Well, this is really, as I mentioned, a trend in how work is done. So we saw this as something that's going to include. a number of underlying themes that's going to grow and develop over time. Its concept

when we first launched in today is already changed, and its active nature, I think, allows for that. We've added sub-themes into it as it grows. So really, the concept is we, quite frankly, ourselves, both at Toroso and also SoFi, have work disconnected even before the pandemic hit last year. And it's something that we've believed in deeply for quite some time. And we're just looking for the picks and axe companies that build the ecosystem that allow that gig economy to function, whether you're a solopreneur, a freelancer, independent contractor, or even an employee from a Fortune 500 company that has negotiated three days a week out of office in perpetuity even after this because they've realized how efficient that might be.

So maybe is it better to describe the gig economy as like, what isn't the gig economy? So for example, somebody who works at Walmart, that would not be the gig economy. economy, somebody who's a lawyer in corporate America, that is not the gig economy. But people that are able to work from home, people that are on the internet, influencers, memers, are those gig workers? Yeah, those are gig workers, part-time workers that work for Fortune 500 companies, as you mentioned through platforms such as Fiverr or Upworks, or even full-time employees that are remote, I wouldn't say that they're necessarily gig economy workers, but the companies that allow that

to happen smoothly and effectively, even companies such as Zoom, that allow these meetings to occur. They're all the tools that allow this to function. What is not the gig economy? Not the gig economy is sitting in Midtown in an investment banking firm for 100 hours a week, expecting that's the only way idea generation and real work is going to get done. So it looks like you launched this product in spring of 2019. So how much bigger now is the marketplace for stocks for this strategy? Because obviously the last year, it had to just explode in terms of names that you probably think could be included in here. Yeah, I mean, when we first launched the ETF, I want to say we were in the low 40s of names and now we're right around 61. So it's definitely evolved and continuing

to evolve. Actually, we launched before Uber and Lyft were public. And everyone kind of assumed those are the only two companies in the gig economy space, whereas they make up a very small portion of our portfolio. And then you move on to all the platform companies that have done well or launched in the last couple of years that are now also members of the gig economy space. Most recently, Roblox, there's so many different examples of companies in the gig economy space and it's just continuing to grow. I would say our first year, we had to fight the answer of, well, why would I want to allocate you to invest in just Uber or Lyft? And Uber and Lyft are now such a small portion in our eyes of the overall gig economy space and not ones that have been

top weight in our portfolio since, quite frankly, January last year. This is a bit of a tangent, but I think I saw that Uber now, has to classify their workers as actual employees. Was that in the UK? Where did that happen? That was in the UK. And the interesting thing on that part is they're actually classified as workers only while they have a ride or are going to pick up a ride, but not so much while they're sitting

in between rides. It's kind of like a band-aid on a terrible problem. I wouldn't want to speculate on specifically their tactics there. But all I know is that the ride-sharing economy will occur, whether it's a lot of the ride-sharing economy will occur, whether it's from Uber, Lyft, Tesla, Neo, or other companies. The idea that you will not need a actual driver in your car to get from A to B is coming sooner rather than later, and that makes the ride-sharing economy significantly more affordable for people. And it also turns that time into productive time from an entrepreneurial perspective.

You might be able to travel three hours outside of the city twice a week and actually use that time well on a car versus focusing all your time and energy while driving. And the productivity gains that come from that. So this is from a paper that you did, which we'll link to in the show notes. Gig wages and participation grew 33% in 2020 to represent 93 million U.S. adults earning $1.6 trillion. So in 2019, that was $70 million and $1.2 trillion. I just saw a, I guess it's from a survey, the top 10 jobs that kids want. You know what number one, two, and three are? YouTuber, blogger, musician. So it grew at 33% in 2020.

It sounds like, is this sustainable? Is this just where we're headed? I mean, I don't know if we're going to see the same growth rates we saw last year, but the adoption growth that we saw has unlocked massive growth in this whole industry over the next couple of years. This was something that was going to play out over a 20 to 25 year cycle that we now view happening over the next like 17 to 20. And we think that COVID just kind of chopped off.

couple of years of that growth. I don't want the gay economy ETF to be associated with just work from home because it goes so much beyond work from home. It's the work from anywhere market. And not only that, if you think about the speed of innovation in our society, you are going to have to reinvent yourself in your career two or three times over. Lifespans are rising. Yields are falling. The ability to retire is getting harder and harder. And if technology is changing our ecosystem time and time again, you're going to have to reinvent yourself. So some members of the gig economy include online education companies, that skill, that could be your side hobby, that could eventually become your next company that you launch.

Could you see me becoming a gym teacher in 15 years? Why not? Absolutely. Well, that haircut, you became a gym teacher five years ago, I think. We have the same haircut. There you go. So you mentioned that Uber and Lyft were the obvious ones that people think of. And I noticed it looks like about two-thirds of this fund is out.

to the U.S., another third outside of the U.S. What are some of these companies outside of the U.S. that maybe American investors wouldn't be as familiar with? Tencent, Pindo Duo, come to mind. Mercado Libre. There's an infinite number of, really, I believe that the ecosystem is very much being split into the developed and the emerging market world, where you're pretty much seeing almost the same companies attack their own customer base

and separately from the developed world and the emerging market world. So we see a lot of upside potential coming from the international side of our portfolio here. Selfishly, can you talk a little bit about Jamea? I actually bought a little bit when the stock crashed a few weeks ago. So please, educate me. Michael's been pounding the table on this one. Yeah, I mean, it's an e-commerce company out of Africa that I wouldn't know for sure, but someday could be a nice acquisition target, I think, for one of the U.S.

Feng companies to find their entryway into Africa. And like any company at that stage, they spent a number of years burning a ton of cash. And it was a question of if they were going to be able to get to market scale. But what we really saw in COVID is the proof of concept kind of work. All right, blink twice if you have an inside information. All right, according to a study by Upwork and the Freelancers Union, again, from something that you all wrote, the freelance workforce grew at a rate three times faster than the U.S. workforce overall between 2014 and 2018.

All right, that makes sense. At its current rate, the majority of the U.S. workforce will be freelancing by 2027. Is that really possible? Can we expect these things to continue? their current trajectory. I mean, that sounds kind of ridiculous, but I don't know. Maybe we're going there. I think so.

I think the key there is that you don't have to leave your full-time job to be a part of the gig economy. It's what you're doing on nice and weekends and your side projects and your side hustles that you're putting together. Now more than ever, people are trying to focus on taking control of their future in an unstable world and finding that little side hobby, whether you're selling mugs on Shopify and advertising on Twitter. or Etsy, et cetera, finding an alternative source of revenue for yourself, I think is something

people are focusing on more now than ever. Do you think that Amazon views Shopify is a threat? I think they should. I think that idea of the side hustle and figuring something out on your own and being entrepreneurial, it makes sense because a lot of younger people have grown up in this environment, they kind of get it. But one of the surprising stats you gave was that 26% of gig economy workers are baby boomers. Any sense of what that tends to be? Is this people who are retired who maybe need some income to supplant their retirement income. What are the baby boomers doing in this space? You hit it on the nail. They were told that they were going to be able to draw five or six percent a year from their assets and live happily ever after, and that number is probably

closer to 3 percent. And they need to make up the Delta. So a lot of them are consulting part-time for younger companies. There's a whole ecosystem of startups focused specifically on baby boomers, oftentimes now founded by baby boomers to recognize the problems and struggles that they have and provide solutions that they're looking for. None of those are really in the public market yet, but there are unique solutions being created for that as well. So if you're only able to generate 60% of the revenue off of your assets that you thought you were going to be able to, you have to make up that 40% elsewhere. Last week, Ben and I were talking about the fact that only 14% of retail sales are done online. So even though the market caps of a lot of these companies is tremendous,

am I crazy thinking that it's still the early innings? I think it's still the early innings. I think the difference between this year and last year is you're going to prove yourself somewhat more so this year from last year versus a very good story went a very long way last year. You need to actually realize some of that story and some of that growth and not necessarily turn it into profit today, but actually see that story playing out as you expected. are an actively managed ETF. So we do have overweights and underweights, and there are certain stories that we have more faith in than others.

Do you have any rules that guide you in this? Because obviously, this is a changing market all the time, and it's actively managed. Do you have specific stocks or industries you're looking for? Or is that just ever evolving because this is such a new space for people? We have categories generally in terms of how they participate in the gig economy, from direct participants to marketers, to platforms, to ancillary beneficiaries, in the gave economy space to try to structure some overall diversification.

But beyond that, we like to say it's a hybrid between an active and passive strategy where we're almost putting stocks in tiers of conviction and almost on a daily basis deciding we want to rebalance those tiers. So what's different from us than some other active managers is we will trade whenever we see fit, usually at least once or twice a week. But we are not going to take active bets usually beyond. four or five percent any single one name. And you'll see our conviction that's somewhere between about like 2.75 and 4 percent for the most part. Just because we obviously want to have some say on that

and that's helped us tremendously in the last couple years, but don't want to move away from really providing also exposure to the good economy. So what does that mean? That means that when Uber became public, it took us four months to leg into a position into it. And when COVID hit, It took us one day to cut that in half and rotate towards all the platforms. When Roblox had a direct listing, Kathy Woods wasn't the only ETF that bought it on the direct listing day, Gigi was as well. So it allows us to have access early or choose to leg in or quickly leg out of companies, but still keep them inclusive in the universe. I have a lot of questions about Gigi, how you guys are managing that. But before we get to that, one last question on the gig stuff, are there some areas that are just less susceptible to

disruption. Like, for example, over the weekend, I took my four-year-old to Dix. He's starting T-ball. And that place was hopping because you want to hold the baseball bat. You want to try and create all that sort of stuff. Do places like that, and I can't even think of other examples, just not lead themselves to online distribution? I mean, you see where the multiples are going in this space. And I think a lot of the retail space in major cities, but also specifically in the strip mall space are experiential and really brand building and not really profits of revenue. Now, Dick's sporting aside, maybe on one of the first spring days post-COVID, obviously, but I don't think it's very different. I think you're going to see a lot of that

is just break-even experience from major brands, if that makes sense. This is sort of neither here are there, but since I mentioned Dix, this stock was at 50 bucks prior to the COVID collapse, and now it's at 80. So it went from 15 to 30 to 80. So it is well higher now. And maybe this is like people just excited for the reopening. Who knows? But anyway. Well, I think that's when you do see a lot of these regime shifts. So how quickly did you go from, oh, crap, this is a crisis and every stock is getting killed in the market to, oh, wait, this is probably, a regime shift. And there's going to be different winners. And if anything, the pandemic has changed the technology industry more than anything in terms of bringing stuff forward. But how quickly

did you go from this is a crisis and panicking to, oh, wait, this is an opportunity and a time to maybe rejigger our portfolio in the categories we're investing in. We started rotating from stocks not fully away from, but lowering allocations to stocks such as Uber and Lyft and increasing allocations to stocks such as Square and PayPal and Fiver and Upwork as early as the last couple days of February last year, because it was, however the world worked out, you were going to be using Zoom and you could not meet face-to-face to hire new employees. You had to find solutions to do that in the here and now. And obviously, economic cycles aside, those things and the market corrections are exceptionally hard to predict. In this fashion, we just see this as like

a long-term trend in how work is being done. And obviously, it will have some beta with overall markets, but we just saw that as an increase in adoption of all things platform-based. The ETF launched in around the spring of 2019. Is that right? Correct. So since that time, this is up around 96%. The NASDAQ 100 is up around 66%. So significant outperformance. When investors are looking at something like this, what should they be evaluating? How much trust are they placing in you and your team to navigate this and make the right decisions? Like I said, this isn't actively managed ETFs. And we will. express our opinions in that, but we are inclusive on the ecosystem. So it's very much an

ecosystem play. It can be invested on just based on that alone. I think oftentimes active and passive get confused because the S&P 500 is active. And all the big index companies, for the most part, punted they were balancing last year, which significantly changed the returns for those index over the year in midst of COVID. So the way we look at it is we try to almost, yes, take our convictions, but then take an index-like approach on a daily basis. What needs to be a rebalance? If a stock is down 40%, does it need to be reallocated to or should it be removed from the portfolio and vice versa on anything that's up 40%. If you look at an ETF such as XRT, it held 20% GameStop at one point. It's an equally weighted ETF of 95 names. Its next highest

name was 1.7 names. Got just a bit out of whack. A little bit out of whack. And so if you're sitting there and you're like, well, it might make sense to rebalance today and not wait till the end of the quarter. And you'd be surprised how much value comes from that, especially when there's so many sub-themes in a category such as the gig economy that go into it that are independent and moving independently of each other, from online education to 3D printing to e-commerce, to service provider platforms such as telehealth, etc. So there's so many unaligned themes that make up this whole ecosystem, the gig economy, that there's diversification being generated from that alone. Well, you have these four categories listed. It's platform businesses, services and transactions, marketing, and then the ancillary businesses. Can you maybe talk about how you think about each of these categories and if you have a certain threshold you're looking to invest in each of them? The first category obviously is the primary one platforms, which makes up about 50% of the portfolio.

we do put ranges on it. That's just kind of where it stands today. And those are direct participants in the gig economy that as their business scales, they will benefit from, such as we mentioned Shopify or Upwork or Fiverr. On the platform and marketing side and the service side, service, you could see anything from food delivery to Zoom to Twilio and DocuSign, things that are just kind of like the blocking and tackling of the gig economy space, or the marketing space where you could see Tencent, Microsoft, MoMo, or Pinterest, really,

ways that people are generating kind of marketing leads in the gig economy space. So what is the gig economy like outside the United States? Honestly, it's bigger. If you look in the emerging market space, the adoption rate, even pre-COVID for everything from digital payment systems to freelancing has been much higher. and that's because they haven't had large institutions standing in their way. Why didn't we have a higher adoption of digital payments in 2019 than the emerging market space?

Because it was bad for the banks. But that doesn't matter anymore. At some point, Square might be bigger than some of these banks themselves. The emerging market part of it is fascinated me because that's where all of the people that I find on like, so like Upwork have come from. And they charge really reasonable rates. And the work is fantastic. I worked with people from Latin and Central America and people from the U.S.

Ukraine and places all around the world. And a lot of them because of the time differences, I'll put in a request in an afternoon and then it'll be in my inbox in the morning. Totally done. And you have these back and forth of these people. I think the fact that you see it in those kind of countries that maybe don't have the same type of opportunities that we have in the U.S., that's one of the most fascinating things to me about this, is just that you're giving more opportunities to people in place that didn't have them in the past. It levels the playing field, which is a beautiful thing, but also a terrifying thing. And it shows You're not competing just with your fellow counterparts in the workforce in the U.S.

It's really a global marketplace for every service you're offering. When Coinbase comes public, is that something that would be eligible? It is something we are discussing. We have not made a final decision on that. What do you think about the $70 billion valuation in the private market? It's probably going to come north of 100 or thereabouts? For Coinbase specifically. Yeah.

I would not want to speculate too much on their value. I think the network effect of these things can be exceptionally huge in terms of generating growth and profit in the future. But I do question if they are direct participants in the gate economy or if they're just a service provider who at the end of the day will be processing trades for a nominal, not dollar fee, but rounded Bitcoin fee. How does that conversation work between you and your team where, because I imagine a lot of these ones that are going to be opportunities for you in the future are going to be IPOs or

these companies that come through SPAC and they're going to be newer companies. And you're going to have to have a conversation of, does this fit our idea or does the valuation make sense? Or what's more important there? Is it a part of the gay economy or is this thing potentially overvalued? Or how does that sort of teeter-totter work? First and foremost, we are absolutely inclusive in the gig economy. We have no mandate on schedule on when we need to put positions in after an IPO or direct listing or SPAC. So we can take our time in it. But what I would say is we're going to express our viewpoint of what we think has a lot of room to go and what might be more appropriately priced based on our allocations. Our overweights are squared, Shopify and PayPal, et cetera.

Our underweight companies are docusign and Zoom, et cetera, which are necessary services, but we don't see as much huge growth potential in the near future. So in the third quarter of 2020, Fiver's revenue, and they're an Israeli company, was up 88%, Square was up 140%, Shopify was up 96%. And do you think that this sets up for much tougher comps going forward? No. I mean, as I mentioned, I think you're going to have the haves and have knots in 2021 and 2022 of all these platform companies that had exceptional growth last year.

And I think all of those that you listed are the haves. I think they're going to continue to outperform, obviously, larger market disruption aside. But I think they have massive upside potential. We talked about Shopify. I think Shopify is the ESG. option to Amazon because they're not trying to steal your business. They're actually trying to support your business. There are many participants on Amazon Marketplace that try to hide who they actually are or how big they are because they're worried that Amazon might see that

and just try to replicate their products and offerings. You talked about this Jimmy and Michael's favorite African stock pick, how it's maybe a potential candidate for acquisition. Do you think that a lot of these stocks are the ones that haven't grown too big to the size of like a Shopify or an Airbnb, where maybe that is as much of a catalyst for anything for good returns going forward? Is that these larger corporations are going to see this stuff happening and be like, instead of building this out on our own, we'll just buy one of these companies. Is that a potential that you think could come down the line to? I think, unfortunately, that's occurring in almost every industry, and that's kind of a product of where we are in this QE cycle. There's very few

industries that are being built to surpass Feng, and many that are building to essentially be acquired by Feng or someone further along the ecosystem of Fang. Ben and I have been talking for the past few weeks about DoorDash, and we just don't see it. The current business model, just the arithmetic doesn't make sense now. Of course, it's still a very young company and the future might look very different. But what are your thoughts on delivery as a service and the future of that? We have four allocations in the delivery space. They in total make up under 3% of our portfolio. So we think there are absolutely players in the gay economy space. I do think at this time, I would agree with you.

I think as a whole, they are a little overpriced. And I think there's going to be some price competition and real lack of diversification of offering across them. So there is a huge market in the delivery economy and then eventually ghost kitchens and things of that sorts. But we don't see it as the most interesting names in the good economy space. I know you're not a macroeconomist, but what do you make of all the talk of higher interest rates taking a club to the kneecap of these companies? I think temporarily interest rates will always hurt growth companies or interest rate increases will always hurt growth companies just because of how reliant they are on growth capital and how much more that costs in a higher interest rate environment from an opportunity cost perspective. but we're in a world where the developed world globally can't really handle significantly higher interest rates and the powers that be the essential banks around the world are incentivized

to keep some sort of cap on that. And I think a focus on growth capital innovation is going to be here for quite some time. I think the fact that the big fang stocks, so many of them hit this one trillion dollar market cap threshold, it essentially sets this new baseline. You have these smaller companies now and they look at that and they say, okay, what's going to be the next Amazon, Apple, Microsoft to hit that threshold? I think if I had to guess, Airbnb seems like the one to me that makes the most sense to get there, just because it's bigger now than the majority of the hospitality industry. Does that make sense for being, I know it looks like your largest holding?

You have to say disclosure. I'm long. Sorry. We're very, very bullish on Airbnb. I'll create it similarly to, if you look at like Square versus the banks, squares, cost of customer acquisition is miniscule versus the banks because they're not building huge towers in all of the major cities around the world. Just as Airbnb is not building out hotels and is having their opportunities that expanded for them, I think one of the less appreciated areas of Airbnb's growth is the Airbnb marketplace for experiences. I don't know if you guys have ever actually done this, but for actually my best friend's wife for his birthday through Airbnb experience. We actually had a virtual magic show done for us. And the guy was a former J.P. Morgan

banker who in the midst of COVID quit and started doing magic shows out of Japan through Airbnb experience. And that's a whole other ecosystem that I think they'll thrive on. See, the Fed needs to raise rates so JP Morgan bankers can make more money and I have to turn to magic. All right, David, where can people go to find more about this fund, about some of your research, if they want to learn more? please go to gigi.sofi.com to learn more information and thank you guys very much. Thanks again to David for coming on. Thanks to SoFi for sponsoring this one, Animal SpiritsPod at gmail.com and we will talk to you next time.